Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 12th Mar 2007 17:32 UTC, submitted by anonymous
Gentoo "Last week, the Gentoo project entered the lowest point of its 7-year old existence. The single most telling statement attesting to this fact is this brief excerpt from the current issue of Gentoo Weekly News. 'The following developers recently joined the Gentoo project: Daniel Robbins; the following developers recently left the Gentoo project: Daniel Robbins' Yes, this is the same Daniel Robbins who founded Gentoo Linux back in the year 2000 and who left the project in 2004 for personal reasons. He officially re-joined the Gentoo development team two weeks ago - only to resign a few days later. The reason? Strong personal attacks by some of the current developers of the project."
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Interesting
by Ford Prefect on Mon 12th Mar 2007 18:00 UTC
Ford Prefect
Member since:
2006-01-16

It's interesting, many people that try out Arch are ex-gentoo users, telling they didn't like the developers anymore, the community began to suck, etc.

Reading the flamepost provided in the article hopefully opens the eyes of said developers and communities and let them step back a bit in their attitude.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Interesting
by vegai on Tue 13th Mar 2007 08:06 UTC in reply to "Interesting"
vegai Member since:
2005-12-25

Perhaps that was the reason for many, but mine was purely technical. In Arch Linux, I found something superior, so that's where I moved.

When something superior to Arch comes along, I'll switch just as easily. This, I think, is one of the greatest benefits of using free software. Or 'lax software'. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lax

Yeah, I think I'll start using that term. Nothing that can refer to loose bowels can be all bad.

Reply Score: 3

Not Fair
by microFawad on Mon 12th Mar 2007 18:10 UTC
microFawad
Member since:
2005-12-09

"Strong personal attacks by some of the current developers of the project."
^
^
^
That's not fair...

Reply Score: 2

RE: Not Fair
by SirYes on Mon 12th Mar 2007 18:56 UTC in reply to "Not Fair"
SirYes Member since:
2007-03-12

> > "Strong personal attacks by some of the current developers of the project."
> ^
> That's not fair...

Actually, it was a quarrel with Ciaran McCreesh, ex-developer, that resulted in Daniel Robbins' resignation. Ciaran is considered by some current developers as a trollish person.

I was an active Gentoo user and proponent for ~3 years, but eventually I moved (back) to Debian and Ubuntu some months ago. Still, this stream of events really saddened me.

The thread that started all this can be found here:
* http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/46339

Look at this too:
* http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/46339/focus=46404
* http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/46339/focus=46467
* http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/46339/focus=46482
* http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/46339/focus=46496

And finally:
* http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/46478/focus=46489
* http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/46478/focus=46491
* http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/46478/focus=46495
* http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/46478/focus=46498

Plus, another developer has left for the same reasons:
* http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/46478/focus=46500
* http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/46478/focus=46503

Summing up:
"300 messages, two developers, and 17 cups of coffee later.. ;) "
* http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/46339/focus=46555

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Not Fair
by wannabe geek on Mon 12th Mar 2007 23:06 UTC in reply to "RE: Not Fair"
wannabe geek Member since:
2006-09-27

..Hmm, interesting ;)

-----------------
Date: 2007-03-04 20:36:59 GMT

On Sun, Mar 04, 2007 at 01:17:03PM -0700, Daniel Robbins wrote:
> Yep, I agree. Thanks everyone for being tolerant of >my confusion and disruption while I look for a way to >remove Ciaran from gentoo-dev.

Stop it. You don't like him, fine. I personally don't like you, no problem. And many people hate me, good too.

Please go back to your hacking and improve Gentoo. You just can't 'remove Ciaran from gentoo-dev', live with it, or leave Gentoo if you don't like the way we do things now.

- ferdy
------------------
Date: 2007-03-04 20:44:28 GMT
That's actually a very good idea. I definitely don't want to be associated with this project.

-Daniel
-----------------

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Not Fair
by de_wizze on Tue 13th Mar 2007 08:10 UTC in reply to "RE: Not Fair"
de_wizze Member since:
2005-10-31

It would seem to me that drobbins as fallen victim to the script-kiddie developers that Gentoo nurtured over time. What seemed like a a valid attempt to bring focus and scope to disruptive bantering between separate projects backfired when faced with flame throwing immature personalities. I think trying to ban the guy might have been misplaced effort with what might have been good intent but as I said before what you have is developers who may not have the experience or understanding that maintaining and establishing a separation of concerns[1] is something to be sought after.

[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_concerns

Reply Score: 1

Gentoo User
by hechacker1 on Mon 12th Mar 2007 18:16 UTC
hechacker1
Member since:
2005-08-01

Nothing to see here... move along... I still like Gentoo.

I did not start using it because of the personalities involved with the distro. I started using it because of its powerful package management "portage" and because it allows users (who take the time to read and learn) to pretty much control every aspect of their system.

The Gentoo forums are still alive and well, and the community is still as strong as ever. Perhaps Gentoo is driven by the larger community as a whole (usually what gets implemented depends on what the users are requesting), and big name developers aren't as relevant.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Gentoo User
by Headrush on Tue 13th Mar 2007 02:25 UTC in reply to "Gentoo User"
Headrush Member since:
2006-01-03

You can't control members, there are idiots in all distros. I would say the majority of people are quite helpful and you just got unlucky or didn't listen.

Have been part of the gentoo forums for years, it appears seasoned users generally bend over backwards to help new users.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Gentoo User
by de_wizze on Tue 13th Mar 2007 08:30 UTC in reply to "Gentoo User"
de_wizze Member since:
2005-10-31

But when that very element "Portage" is being threatened by the disruptive approach of development for competing technology "Paludis[1]" in the same place those user will be needing more help to get less done and the underlying infrastructure moves closer to simply collapsing due to a lack of direction.

[1]http://paludis.pioto.org/faq.html#why

Reply Score: 2

I had some problems too
by tikal26 on Mon 12th Mar 2007 18:19 UTC
tikal26
Member since:
2005-11-12

I had some problems by some members that could not beleive how stupid I was at having problems installing gentoo, I guess I was not wanted int heri gentoo community, (too stupid).

Reply Score: 5

RE: I had some problems too
by Schmeggma on Mon 12th Mar 2007 19:30 UTC in reply to "I had some problems too"
Schmeggma Member since:
2006-01-14

Do you have a link to that thread? I've always found the community itself pretty helpful. (Unless of course they were angry because you didn't bother to search, read the documentaion etc. which is a completely different matter..)

I think you've missed the fact that the issue here is within the core rather than the community as a whole.

Reply Score: 3

RE: I had some problems too
by dylansmrjones on Mon 12th Mar 2007 21:15 UTC in reply to "I had some problems too"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

One has to be extremely stupid in order to receive such a reply. Like not knowing how to turn on a computer.

gentoo is surely not for non-geeks. If you don't know what you are doing, you shouldn't be using gentoo. It'll never work out. Certain technical skills are a requirement. It's no good if you are so unskilled, you don't understand our explanations.

That said, I've never had any problems with getting help. People at the gentoo-user mailling list are always very kind and helpful - unless of course you refuse to read the documentation we are pointing you to (or are a jerk posting spam about dolphins getting killed in Japan - that was one more person to my kill-list).

If you don't understand the documentation you are free to ask for our help and we will gladly help you.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: I had some problems too
by Havin_it on Tue 13th Mar 2007 09:29 UTC in reply to "RE: I had some problems too"
Havin_it Member since:
2006-03-10


gentoo is surely not for non-geeks. If you don't know what you are doing, you shouldn't be using gentoo. It'll never work out. Certain technical skills are a requirement. It's no good if you are so unskilled, you don't understand our explanations.


I don't really agree with this. I do think that users (and to some extent devs) like to trade on this, but I personally got well into the Gentoo experience without really learning any general-purpose Linux skills. The skills are the same you need for any distro, namely how to follow the checklist:

1) Google and search the forum for your prob
2) If you don't find a solution this way, ask in the forum (showing some evidence that you've tried to solve it yourself)
3) If the forum concludes something's broken, file a bug.

The skills are constructing good queries, and polite well-structured requests for help. Innit?

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: I had some problems too
by twenex on Tue 13th Mar 2007 17:07 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: I had some problems too"
twenex Member since:
2006-04-21

gentoo is surely not for non-geeks. If you don't know what you are doing, you shouldn't be using gentoo. It'll never work out. Certain technical skills are a requirement. It's no good if you are so unskilled, you don't understand our explanations.

I don't really agree with this. I do think that users (and to some extent devs) like to trade on this, but I personally got well into the Gentoo experience without really learning any general-purpose Linux skills. The skills are the same you need for any distro, namely how to follow the checklist:


I agree entirely (with the second poster). I DO think that there are a select bunch of people who are Gentooers, but I think that's true of any distro...It would be true for various distros of Windows and the Mac, too, if they had an open source development model...However, I don't think that that select group is necessarily geeks...I know several geeks who are way geekier than I am, who wouldn't even touch Gentoo w/ a bargepole...some because they have tried Gentoo and hated it, some not.

Reply Score: 2

Fastest growing distro
by fignew on Mon 12th Mar 2007 18:20 UTC
fignew
Member since:
2006-09-06

From the article:
"By the time he resigned from the project some four years later, Gentoo had become the fastest growing Linux distribution of all times..."

Just curious, but I was under the impression that Ubuntu has been growing faster?

Reply Score: 4

RE: Fastest growing distro
by jaypee on Mon 12th Mar 2007 18:23 UTC in reply to "Fastest growing distro"
jaypee Member since:
2005-07-28

Perhaps now but, in 2004, I don't believe Ubuntu was growing at quite the same clip.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Fastest growing distro
by Thom_Holwerda on Mon 12th Mar 2007 18:24 UTC in reply to "Fastest growing distro"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Just curious, but I was under the impression that Ubuntu has been growing faster?

Not in 2004 it wasn't.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Fastest growing distro
by fignew on Mon 12th Mar 2007 18:37 UTC in reply to "RE: Fastest growing distro"
fignew Member since:
2006-09-06

Not in 2004 it wasn't.

Still not convinced...

Gentoo: 2004 - 2000 = 4 years
Ubuntu: 7.04 - 4.10 = 2.5 years

Would it be safe to say that more people are using Ubuntu now, than people were using Gentoo in 2004? plus, remember that we're talking about growth rate, so the fact that Ubuntu has only been around for 2.5 years makes the growth even faster.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Fastest growing distro
by fsckit on Mon 12th Mar 2007 18:44 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Fastest growing distro"
fsckit Member since:
2006-09-24

Would it be safe to say that it really doesn't matter? Seriously guys, this article is about Gentoo, not Ubuntu. Not every single article on $givenlinuxdistro has to devolve into a Ubuntu vs. the world debate. Besides the point your trying to make is quite irrelevant. I'm neither a Ubuntu or Gentoo user, but I can almost guarantee you that anyone happily using Gentoo couldn't give a small rodent's rear parts about Ubuntu's growth rate.

Reply Score: 5

RE[4]: Fastest growing distro
by fignew on Mon 12th Mar 2007 18:55 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Fastest growing distro"
fignew Member since:
2006-09-06

I can almost guarantee you that anyone happily using Gentoo couldn't give a small rodent's rear parts about Ubuntu's growth rate.
Yes, that's understood, I'm just pointing out what I believe could be a possible inaccuracy in the article.

Not every single article on $givenlinuxdistro has to devolve into a Ubuntu vs. the world debate.
I'm sorry that you feel this way.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Fastest growing distro
by mk@tuco.de on Mon 12th Mar 2007 21:55 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Fastest growing distro"
mk@tuco.de Member since:
2007-01-23

Yes, that's understood, I'm just pointing out what I believe could be a possible inaccuracy in the article.

As long as I remember Gentoo did made a rocket start and get into the situation of becoming one of the most popular linux distros more or less overnight.

Ubuntu may have overtaken Gentoo in the popularity by now, but that didn´t happen in one day.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Fastest growing distro
by CowMan on Tue 13th Mar 2007 01:57 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Fastest growing distro"
CowMan Member since:
2006-09-26

Let's be fair: most who have gone from stage 1 to desktop - thus waiting for StarOffice(/openoffice), X and maybe QT + a few QT based programs there - took atleast a full day to compile.

So it was more or less over two nights.
:)

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Fastest growing distro
by jaypee on Mon 12th Mar 2007 18:51 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Fastest growing distro"
jaypee Member since:
2005-07-28

I think you're not understanding the context of the statement. The person was saying that, in 2004, Gentoo was, up until that time, the fastest-growing distro in Linux's history. Since that time, Ubuntu has grown and, perhaps now, holds that distinction.

Reply Score: 5

RE[4]: Fastest growing distro
by fignew on Mon 12th Mar 2007 18:58 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Fastest growing distro"
fignew Member since:
2006-09-06

Yes, I'm sure what you've said is true... But from the article: "By the time he resigned from the project some four years later, Gentoo had become the fastest growing Linux distribution of all times..."

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Fastest growing distro
by Filip on Mon 12th Mar 2007 19:12 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Fastest growing distro"
Filip Member since:
2005-07-06

I think anyone using the phrase "of all times" is not referring to future times.

Reply Score: 5

RE[6]: Fastest growing distro
by libray on Wed 14th Mar 2007 15:18 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Fastest growing distro"
libray Member since:
2005-08-27

Unless Linux wholly as a project has ended, you cannot use "of all times". More correct would have been "at that time"

Correct:
DOS 3.3 was fastest growing version of all times.

Incorrect:
QEMU 0.7.0 was the fastest growing version of all times.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Fastest growing distro
by DigitalAxis on Mon 12th Mar 2007 22:43 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Fastest growing distro"
DigitalAxis Member since:
2005-08-28

I think the key phrase is "had become". It WAS the fastest growing Linux distribution of all time, it ISN'T now.

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: Fastest growing distro
by aliquis on Thu 15th Mar 2007 07:01 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Fastest growing distro"
aliquis Member since:
2005-07-23

But "all times" back in 2004 doesn't involve the future, guess why? ..

Reply Score: 1

Gentoo's Been There
by segedunum on Mon 12th Mar 2007 18:25 UTC
segedunum
Member since:
2005-07-06

I can't imagine Gentoo being in crisis. Spats have happened before in there, and doubtless they will happen again. I can remember the fork which involved some alleged dodgy behaviour from Daniel Robbins, but the reasons for the fork and the whole attitude for it didn't quite ring true for me. Couldn't work that out. The same holds true here. There's just attitude problems all around, while other developers get on with quietly contributing meaningful stuff to the project. People like Seemant I've always found to be level headed in his comments, and thank goodness for those like him.

Yes, flamewars happen and there are lots of dodgy looking Bugzilla arguments around in every project, but one liner responses of accusing people of sending dickish e-mails and appearing to threaten people on the basis of QA violations I find a bit bizarre.

I don't know what the crisis part of the headline means, but if it means Gentoo is finished then it's been finished about ten times over. Some of the people involved with Gentoo do need to look at themselves though.

Reply Score: 5

Set aside the egos briefly
by smitty_one_each on Mon 12th Mar 2007 18:37 UTC
smitty_one_each
Member since:
2005-07-07

Look at Ciaran McCreesh's work:
http://paludis.pioto.org/
If the guy's a freak about anything, he's a freak about good design and documentation.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Set aside the egos briefly
by butters on Mon 12th Mar 2007 19:28 UTC in reply to "Set aside the egos briefly"
butters Member since:
2005-07-08

Paludis is really nice, but having two separate administration systems for Gentoo is incredibly stressful for the project. If there isn't enough support in the Gentoo community to replace Portage with Paludis, then the Paludis people need to realize that they want their own project. They can't continue to maintain a replacement package and configuration management system within the constructs of the existing Gentoo project.

This isn't like the Compiz/Beryl situation, where the rationale for the fork is questionable and the gap between the two projects seems likely to diminish over time. The Paludis community has a vision for Gentoo that doesn't look like it's going far within the Gentoo community, and it's a vision that continues to diverge from Gentoo and Portage. It's time that they detach their project from Gentoo for the benefit of both communities.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Set aside the egos briefly
by zsitvaij on Mon 12th Mar 2007 21:33 UTC in reply to "RE: Set aside the egos briefly"
zsitvaij Member since:
2006-06-14

There are three I know of, actually. And if they conform the the same standards in supporting ebuild features, it really shouldn't matter which one you're using. That's what the PMS project mentioned in the flamethread is about.

And it's already detached in the sense that it isn't a Gentoo dev working on it, and he seems to do just fine on his own. You might have already guessed I'm a satisfied user of Paludis; it suits my needs. Wouldn't recommend it to someone starting out with Gentoo until they learned to use Portage right, though.

Edited 2007-03-12 21:35

Reply Score: 2

DigitalAxis Member since:
2005-08-28

Adding to the stress on the project, unfortunately, are those egos. Around when I left Gentoo I recall reading a bunch of threads where Ciaran was defending himself from other developers who apparently thought he was (or had once been) extolling Paludis as the cure-all to all their Gentoo problems if only people would give up on Portage and see the wondrous joye of his creation. (NOT a good way to win people over, as I've learned myself) I never saw him actually saying anything like that, but that was only the public forums.

If resentment towards a developer and/or a developer's bad attitude overwhelms the technical merits of what they're doing, THEN you have serious problems. I mean, bad manners is one thing, but when it bleeds over into the work...

Reply Score: 2

smitty_one_each Member since:
2005-07-07

If the data (ebuilds) are truly orthogonal to the logic (paludis, portage), then I fail to see the harm in having an arbitrary number pieces of logic to manage the data.

Reply Score: 1

Gentoo Rules
by Sphinx on Mon 12th Mar 2007 18:58 UTC
Sphinx
Member since:
2005-07-09

Still the #1 distro with me, nothing works better on the cutting edge.

Reply Score: 4

This is similar...
by twenex on Mon 12th Mar 2007 19:02 UTC
twenex
Member since:
2006-04-21

to the "Desktop Linux Bubble Burst" article: Similar, as in, "there's nothing in it".

Reply Score: 4

Never did like it
by sc3252 on Mon 12th Mar 2007 19:16 UTC
sc3252
Member since:
2005-09-06

I never did like Gentoo, to much work for very little reward. I remembering taking around 9 hours+ just to get a bare system up and running, and then having performance issues from very simple applications(yes I did make sure dma was enabled). It just isn't worth the pain and suffering to have a system that you can call your own. After that horrible experience I have been a Debian fan.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Never did like it
by twenex on Mon 12th Mar 2007 19:52 UTC in reply to "Never did like it"
twenex Member since:
2006-04-21

I could post a similar slagging-off of Debian, ending with the statement that "After that horrible experience I have been a Gentoo fan."

See for example the post in my blog in which I point out that the same bug has existed in the Ubuntu/Debian X11 video driver for four years now.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Never did like it
by GhePeU on Mon 12th Mar 2007 20:03 UTC in reply to "Never did like it"
GhePeU Member since:
2005-07-06

I've been using Gentoo since August 2003, with the same installation moved twice to a new hard disk and once to a different computer (CPU, motherboard, hard disk, everything), and I can assure you that in these 3 years, 7 months and 12 days I spent most of the time enjoying my system, without 'pain and suffering'. Maybe it was just PBKAC.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Never did like it
by Hetdegon on Mon 12th Mar 2007 20:36 UTC in reply to "RE: Never did like it"
Hetdegon Member since:
2005-11-13

I agree. I have actually done the same thing as you.
I started in a PII(350mhz) four years ago, and my same install has been moved to two different machines and four different disks. Only some minor hardware tweaks were necessary.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Never did like it
by FunkyELF on Mon 12th Mar 2007 20:34 UTC in reply to "Never did like it"
FunkyELF Member since:
2006-07-26

Great, I've been a Gentoo fan. Then I heard all of the hype about Ubuntu and decided to try out Kubuntu. It was horrible and broken. Crashed on me several times.

After that horrible experience, I went back to being a Gentoo fan.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Never did like it
by nutshell42 on Tue 13th Mar 2007 12:44 UTC in reply to "Never did like it"
nutshell42 Member since:
2006-01-12

It just isn't worth the pain and suffering to have a system that you can call your own.

That's an unfair accusation, it only takes three commands to install Gentoo:
cfdisk /dev/hda && mkfs.xfs /dev/hda1 && mount /dev/hda1 /mnt/gentoo/ && chroot /mnt/gentoo/ && env-update && . /etc/profile && emerge sync && cd /usr/portage && scripts/bootsrap.sh && emerge system && emerge emacs && emacs /etc/fstab && emerge gentoo-dev-sources && cd /usr/src/linux && make menuconfig && make install modules_install && emerge kde && emerge grub && cp /boot/grub/grub.conf.sample /boot/grub/grub.conf && vi /boot/grub/grub.conf && grub && init 6
that's the first one

(taken from bash.org =)

That said, I've used Gentoo and in terms of intermediate to advanced system administration it was by far the best distro I've tried. The package management is logical and you can easily adjust it to your needs or restore it to sanity.

--Intermission--
Compare that to Debian: I use unstable and KDE depends on gam; unfortunately gam completely breaks KDE on Debian, everything just freezes.
Fortunately KDE doesn't *need* gam, if it's not present KDE works fine.
*Unfortunately* apt doesn't believe me. So now I have to delete the gam binary every time apt updates it.
Just to make that clear: This has nothing to do with gentoo being source based. It's about apt having dependencies that aren't dependencies, because the mechanism apt provides for such recommendations that aren't dependencies but could be useful - funnily, they called them "Recommended Packages" - generally only recommends packages that haven't existed for 3 years.
--End Intermission--

Unfortunately I no longer have the time to compile everything and staying up to date with Gentoo was just too much trouble. If Gentoo had a regularily updated baseline binary distribution (let's say comparable to Debian testing+security updates) with most common packages, it would be perfect.

Edit:
Let me add that Gentoo still has the best docs. The Gentoo guides and wiki are heads and shoulders above anything else for most stuff that has been developed in the last five years (e.g. what do I need for suspend-to-disk, docs for Xorg). What's more, most of them are in depth enough that a advanced user can reference them for tricky problems but still step-by-step enough so that you can recommend them to newbies.
Great work.

Edited 2007-03-13 12:50

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Never did like it
by sbergman27 on Tue 13th Mar 2007 13:06 UTC in reply to "RE: Never did like it"
sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

"""
The Gentoo guides and wiki are heads and shoulders above anything else for most stuff that has been developed in the last five years (e.g. what do I need for suspend-to-disk, docs for Xorg).
"""

Most distros include the Xorg docs.

But "what do I need for suspend-to-disk" catches my eye.

I've installed a number of distros on my laptop over the last few months for evaluation.

And in every case, the answer to "what do I need for suspend-to-disk?" has been... press the suspend button.

I suppose that it shouldn't surprise me that Gentoo makes you read the docs, do a few handstands, become one with the machine, etc. before software suspend will work.

Why does Gentoo have to make everything require rocket science?

Edited 2007-03-13 13:07

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Never did like it
by zsitvaij on Tue 13th Mar 2007 13:15 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Never did like it"
zsitvaij Member since:
2006-06-14

Why does Gentoo have to make everything require rocket science?

Because some people prefer not to be crippled by a failed X.org update[1]? As in, not having to depend on black automagic that may or may not work?

[1] http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=15587

Reply Score: 4

RE[4]: Never did like it
by sbergman27 on Tue 13th Mar 2007 13:29 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Never did like it"
sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

I'm already aware of that unusual event. I actually encountered it on one of my machines and simply fixed it.

BTW, Xorg docs, included with Ubuntu and Gentoo both, would have been no help there. The problem was in the source code, not the xorg conf file.

Are you really arguing that because things can very occasionally go wrong with updates, Gentoo's policy of "crippled by default" is better?

Edited 2007-03-13 13:30

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Never did like it
by zsitvaij on Tue 13th Mar 2007 14:08 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Never did like it"
zsitvaij Member since:
2006-06-14

Are you really arguing that because things can very occasionally go wrong with updates, Gentoo's policy of "crippled by default" is better?

Are you really arguing LFS, Slackware and co. should just shuffle off the mortal coil because they baffle you?

You aren't, and I'm not. Gentoo just doesn't have automagic stuff _you_ didn't put there. There's nothing stopping _you_ from adding those. Automagic stuff that works well, eg. HAL, pmount, d-bus, are of yourse available to you. Automagic stuff that doesn't work well enough to be included _upstream_, don't.

For example, X.org 7.3 is supposed to be able to run prefectly without a conf file. That's good, and will work on Gentoo as well. But hackish solutions that may or may not work will not be on by default, and may even require you to work outside the portage tree.

You might be aware that the other example, suspend, requires kernel configuration, and you may choose to go with the suspend2 patchset as well. Choose what works for _you_, because it will not necessarily work for others. Until that work is merged back in the kernel, and even then, you'll have to enable it yourself.

That is what Gentoo is about. Being a control freak, if you will. I know what's running on my machines and why, as well as how they're laid out in /etc.

My point with Xorg was that Gentoo users know how to downgrade X from the command line. Ubuntu users generally don't, unless they come from Debian.

Have you heard any Gento user suggest a reinstall, excepting glibc borkage?

Reply Score: 4

RE[6]: Never did like it
by sbergman27 on Tue 13th Mar 2007 14:20 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Never did like it"
sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

I've been admining Unix systems since 1988. AT&T Unix 386... Xenix '286, Xenix '386... Unix on 3B2's...SCO Unix... Slackware... RedHat, Fedora, Ubuntu... you name it.

I have too much responsibility on my shoulders to trust the chaos that is Gentoo.

Thanks for the tip on Gentoo borking your Glibc.

I might have expected that.

I've never had libc borked on *any* of the distros or Unix versions that I have used in the past 19 years.

Reply Score: 0

RE[7]: Never did like it
by zsitvaij on Tue 13th Mar 2007 14:27 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Never did like it"
zsitvaij Member since:
2006-06-14

I've never had libc borked on *any* of the distros or Unix versions that I have used in the past 19 years.

That's actually users borking their own installs by ignoring the warning that said not to downgrade glibc from 2.4 to 2.3 because things will break. I'd be surprised if you couldn't bork any of those doing stupid things as root.

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: Never did like it
by Sphinx on Tue 13th Mar 2007 22:14 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Never did like it"
Sphinx Member since:
2005-07-09

I've never had libc borked on *any* of the distros or Unix versions that I have used in the past 19 years.

Maybe because you couldn't, the only distro or unix you've used is one that updates by rolling out an entirely new version at once.

AT&T Unix 386... Xenix '286, Xenix '386... Unix on 3B2's...SCO Unix... Slackware... RedHat, Fedora, Ubuntu

None of those ever had the capability to upgrade in place the entire os and the libc it rides on.

I have too much responsibility on my shoulders to trust the chaos that is Gentoo.

Good for you to take your responsibility so seriously. My home workstation is one thing, company hardware another, never cross the streams.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Never did like it
by re_re on Tue 13th Mar 2007 13:49 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Never did like it"
re_re Member since:
2005-07-06

>Why does Gentoo have to make everything require rocket science? <

I don't think you really understand what Gentoo is all about.

Gentoo is for linux power users, tweakers, and developers, plain and simple. Gentoo was never developed or intended to be a distro for the linux newb, but for the experienced linux user or for the user who wants to learn a lot fast.

If you don't like it you don't have to use it, but don't bitch and moan because it isn't Ubuntu or Suse. If you want Ubuntu or Suse I suggest that is what you use.

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: Never did like it
by zombie process on Tue 13th Mar 2007 14:00 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Never did like it"
zombie process Member since:
2005-07-08

I don't particularly like gentoo, and even I think that statement is absurd. I guess your supposition is that because gentoo provides excellent documentation then it must also require every user to read every piece of it before simple things will work. This isn't actually true, though, is it? It's also pretty damn close to flamebait.

It's equally as easy for me to point out that you, in effect, are saying it's bad to help you know how to fix a car instead of just drive one. Does understanding how to change a tire make the disro worse or less "user friendly" in some way? Do the better cars come without user manuals since only hobbyists and zaelots would ever want to fix their own car? Obviously this is a strawman, but please understand that your argument is just as weak, and fairly insulting, even to those who don't use gentoo.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Never did like it
by sbergman27 on Tue 13th Mar 2007 14:10 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Never did like it"
sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

"""
I guess your supposition is that because gentoo provides excellent documentation then it must also require every user to read every piece of it before simple things will work.
"""

You misunderstand my position. I *don't* think that Gentoo provides excellent docs.

But no one has actually addressed whether or not software suspend in Gentoo works out of the box... or if you have to do the handstands and Buddhist Meditation exercises first.

It just seems to me that in these days of Linux just working... in these days that I don't have to be embarrassed in front of clients because things that are effortless in Windows are hard under Linux, that Gentoo stands out as the "Green Acres" of Linux distros.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Never did like it
by zsitvaij on Tue 13th Mar 2007 14:41 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Never did like it"
zsitvaij Member since:
2006-06-14

But no one has actually addressed whether or not software suspend in Gentoo works out of the box... or if you have to do the handstands and Buddhist Meditation exercises first.

Ah. There's the problem. Gentoo isn't a 'just works' distro, and has no goal of being one. It's more a 'wonder what breaks if I do this' distro.

Compiling you own kernel should have tipped you off, really. This is for geeks by geeks.

If you didn't make it work, it will, of course, not materialize on it's own. I really hate to repeat myself, so one last time: meta-distribution. Souped up LFS. 'works-for-me' on the subject of the docs.

We don't seem to be any closer to the other's view, it'd just be religion from this point to continue.

Not to keep you from addressing these points again if you feel the need, but I have things I'm supposed to be doing, and this is all the time I've allocated for flames. ;)

Reply Score: 3

RE[6]: Never did like it
by sbergman27 on Tue 13th Mar 2007 15:03 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Never did like it"
sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

"""
Not to keep you from addressing these points again if you feel the need, but I have things I'm supposed to be doing, and this is all the time I've allocated for flames. ;)
"""

Well, I've appreciated your input. I hope you don't really mean "flames". Just having a bit of fun today. ;-)

I remember, pretty clearly, the year 2002... when Gentoo was big. Fastest growing OS on Earth. #3 on distrowatch.

Its true believers would never let anyone forget it.

No forum was safe. And by that I don't mean just Linux Weekly News, Linux Today, Slashdot, and OSNews. (Was OSNews around back then?)

I mean you could be in a CNN forum, have a video of some catastrophe presented, and have some random Gentoo user pop up to say that he just watched the video on his shiny new Gentoo Workstation.

"It looked great! You could actually see the people in the burning buildings! Gentoo is *sooo* cool! I'd never go back to Windows 'cause this thing is just *sooo* 'leet! Anyone that doesn't use Gentoo is just a luser! Gentoo is the fastest growing OS EVER! It's number 3 on distrowatch! I feel sorry for all those people that got burned up though..."

I just made that up. But its pretty close to the reality of 2002, I think.

So I have no problem admitting to a bit of pettiness today, just as a mild payback to those who have made themselves such a nuisance to so many, in these forums, and in many, many others.

One last thing. The obligatory Jimmy Durante quote:

"Be nice to people on your way up because you meet them on your way down."

Edited 2007-03-13 15:10

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Never did like it
by zombie process on Tue 13th Mar 2007 15:24 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Never did like it"
zombie process Member since:
2005-07-08

I guess it all boils down to how you define documentation, and what you want out of a distro. Looking at windows, I find that I spend a lot more time checking out support.microsoft.com than I do reading any Fine Manual. I suppose that a wiki filled with how-tos is closer to the former than the latter. Personally, I find this fills my needs well enough, and if there are any other needs I have, I look upstream from the distro.

I read your rant about turbogears further down on this page, and could not agree with you more. FOSS needs more concentration on documentation. Badly. The distros are probably not any more fit to do this, though, than the handful of users that write up how-tos. In the mean time, certainly how-tos are a better form of docs than source-code. They are often also a lot more to-the-point - if X blew up on me, I don't want to read a 500 page dissertation on the strengths and weaknesses of X, I want a quick-fix guide.

As for easy on linux versus easy on windows, I agree with you here again. I just don't think there's anything wrong with knowing *how* to roll your sleeves up and get your hands dirty when things do go wrong. Moreover, I'm sort of trying to figure out why you seem to find gentoo so distasteful - if it's not for you, don't use it. I see this a lot though - the arstechnica LKF is a great example of a forum where you get your ass flamed off for even bringing gentoo up.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Never did like it
by nutshell42 on Tue 13th Mar 2007 20:44 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Never did like it"
nutshell42 Member since:
2006-01-12

Most distros include the Xorg docs.

It's not about the Xorg docs, it's about Gentoo's own docs on X. Out of all parts that make up a typical linux system, X has in my experience the most useless docs. They're overly complicated, incomplete and outdated. I've yet to encounter a single problem where the X docs provided the answer.
Unlike lots of other packages' docs and man-pages I might add.

But "what do I need for suspend-to-disk" catches my eye.

I've installed a number of distros on my laptop over the last few months for evaluation.

And in every case, the answer to "what do I need for suspend-to-disk?" has been... press the suspend button.

I suppose that it shouldn't surprise me that Gentoo makes you read the docs, do a few handstands, become one with the machine, etc. before software suspend will work.

Why does Gentoo have to make everything require rocket science?


I tell (K)Ubuntu (I've got both destops installed; it shouldn't make a difference anyway. Btw. the debian machine I mentioned in my original post acts as my router and -with NX- as my linux desktop when I have to use Windows, just fyi) to suspend to disk. It suspends to disk. As you said, just the press of a button.

Unfortunately it doesn't wake up again. (It just complains that the swap partition it suspended to doesn't have a swap signature, which isn't too surprising as I assume the memory dump overwrote it)
While I'm not the only one with the problem for Ubuntu (Google found some others with the same troubles), I wasn't able to find a solution in any Ubuntu source.
In my experience the Ubuntu community tends to be friendly, helpful, but often only able to help with basic problems (i.e. "How do I use the Nvidia drivers").

Thankfully there is the Gentoo community which tends to be able to help with problems when you really need help about nuts and bolts stuff for Linux (i.e. "How do I build a moon-rocket...erm what exactly is needed for suspend-to-disk to work")

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: Never did like it
by flav2000 on Tue 13th Mar 2007 23:17 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Never did like it"
flav2000 Member since:
2006-02-08

I used Gentoo since ver. 1.4. Yeah, it's not for everyone (it has been mention ad nauseum but some still don't get this point). Even today I still think the community is doing fine. Case-in-point: XFCE4.4 has recently been unmasked and the new updates are blocked even if the prior version is uninstalled. One hop to the forum and the answer is provided there by the friendly people. I would say that the "RTFM" posts are much less than 1 in 100 for every 100 questions asked.

The dev flame wars may do some damage to the community. But I would say that there are bad apples in every linux community I've been to, either Debian and *buntus.

As for the comment about suspend-to-disk. Sure it now works with a push of a button for most distros - back in early 2004 I was already able to get suspend working using the how-tos provided by the Gentoo community. How many other distros have a community like that? I would say that this is still the strongest side of Gentoo masses - if you need something cutting-edge and need to get it to work, the Gentoo community is one of the best places to get the answer.

Reply Score: 1

Another Gentoo User
by Brmbolec on Mon 12th Mar 2007 20:13 UTC
Brmbolec
Member since:
2005-07-23

Well who cares about personal troubles if all packages/updates are delivered to users. I'm still happy with Gentoo and won't move to any other...

Reply Score: 2

Which way should Sabayon go?
by REMF on Mon 12th Mar 2007 20:24 UTC
REMF
Member since:
2006-02-05

I am not advocating either way, i don't know anything about the inner workings of gentoo, and therefore how healthy/sick it is.

but it is an interesting debate to me:

http://www.sabayonlinux.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5040&postdays=0&p...

Reply Score: 2

v USE Flag
by Marquis on Mon 12th Mar 2007 20:58 UTC
RE: USE Flag
by Sphinx on Mon 12th Mar 2007 21:09 UTC in reply to "USE Flag"
Sphinx Member since:
2005-07-09

With constructive criticism like yours how could it miss?

Reply Score: 2

Well...
by dylansmrjones on Mon 12th Mar 2007 21:10 UTC
dylansmrjones
Member since:
2005-10-02

...as a gentoo user I can say that there is no crisis what-so-ever in the eyes of the community.

The community is as gentle and kind as it has always been. It's usually blissfully unaware about quarrels between developers - mostly because it doesn't matter much for gentoo as such - and because we just want our systems to work.

Most of the developers spend their time on fixing bugs and stabilizing packages rather than adding new feature to the gentoo-specific tools. And that's the way the community wants it. gentoo has matured technically and we just want it to be maintained without a lot of fuss.

The community is thriving.

When that has been said, I must admit I sighed deeply, when I saw Ciaran's name. I thought he was gone for good. He's extremely skilled technically - unfortunately he's behaviour is as bad as his skills are good. And attacking Jakub Moc does not decrease my ill feelings toward Ciaran. He is very skilled and extremely disruptive. Trouble with him is no news at all - unfortunately. He is - in Danish - godt nok træls! (an excessive annoyance).

Reply Score: 5

Hmm
by Ikshaar on Mon 12th Mar 2007 21:27 UTC
Ikshaar
Member since:
2005-07-14

Crisis ? where ?

Like in all distributions (and all OS), users can be blissfully unaware of internals dissensions, and this is perfectly fine.

Edited 2007-03-12 21:27

Reply Score: 3

RE: Hmm
by HappyGod on Tue 13th Mar 2007 07:57 UTC in reply to "Hmm"
HappyGod Member since:
2005-10-19

Crisis ? where ?

Like in all distributions (and all OS), users can be blissfully unaware of internals dissensions, and this is perfectly fine.


This might be true in the short term, but if the problems between the developers are as bad as this article claims they are, then it won't be long before the cracks start to show in the final product.

And that is not perfectly fine.

Reply Score: 2

fuzzywombat
Member since:
2006-11-21

I've used Gentoo in it's early days when emerge sync took about ten seconds. The day that I ditched Gentoo was when it took well over three minutes for the same command to finish. I was hoping and frankly expecting Gentoo developers to fix this but it became apparent that Gentoo developers didn't see this as problem. Debian's equivalent to emerge sync is apt-get update and that only takes couple of seconds at the most.

Gentoo is built on false assumption of a single system wide CFLAGS that would compile all application to an optimum speed. This simply isn't true. There are plenty of Gentoo users that have never written a program in their life but somehow they are expected to know how to tinker with gcc compiler flags is just unrealistic.

One of the most common advice to solve a broken package problem in x86 stable is to unmask and use the package in ~x86 unstable. Also there are lot of stale software in x86 so it's inevitable you end up trying to use some package in ~x86. Of course when it blows up developers will basically ignore you because you're using ~x86. You're basically damned if you do and damned if you don't.

I think the one "feature" of Gentoo is the root cause of many quality control issues. It's the lack of release cycles like Ubuntu, SUSE, or Fedora. Since Gentoo is really a meta distro, there is no firm deadline when an entire disto is frozen and shipped. Developers generally have an attide of let's release this ebuild and if it is still not fixed then it's not a problem since we'll release another ebuild tommorow. I think having a release cycle focuses the developer to produce better quality of software and promotes cooperation amongst developers to get it out the door in time. Gentoo just lacks this focus or a goal due to this not having release schedules that other distros have.

Edited 2007-03-12 21:51

Reply Score: 5

anda_skoa Member since:
2005-07-07

Debian's equivalent to emerge sync is apt-get update and that only takes couple of seconds at the most.

I am and have been a Debian user for several years, and this is simply not true.

The time "update" needs depends on the response time of the repository servers one has listed in sources.list, the number of changes since the last update and the bandwidth of one's connection when downloading those changes.

In other words: apt-get update can also take several minutes

Reply Score: 4

zsitvaij Member since:
2006-06-14

1. Paludis syncs fast. It syncs overlays as well automatically. In fact, the portage tree is just like any other repo to it. (Portage syncs fast as well, it's just the metadata regeneration at the end that takes forever.)

2. Gentoo is not built on that assumption. I quite appreciate the ability to simply build debugging symbols as needed by appending -ggdb to my CFLAGS. The installer sets sensible defaults. The handbook offers sensible defaults. If you don't RTFM, Gentoo most certainly is not for you.

3. Hot air until bugzilla links are supplied.

4. FUD about the Gentoo dev process. Nice theory, sadly just a regurgitation of folklore circulating the web.

There seems to be a misconception floating about what Gentoo is supposed to be. Meta-distribution means just that: a souped up LFS. If that's not your cup of tea, why on earth would you choose Gentoo? And then flame it for being exactly that?

Reply Score: 4

Doesn't really look like a crisis to me
by dagw on Mon 12th Mar 2007 22:23 UTC
dagw
Member since:
2005-07-06

From what I could make out from the mailing list it seems like Daniel Robbins came back after being away for three years and assumed everything was done exactly the way it was when he left. Ciaran McCreesh (and others) point out that things have changed and Daniel gets upset, demands things get done the old way and then leaves when people don't jump.

I can certainly get that it's tough to watch your baby grow up and not need you any more, perhaps moving in a different way than you had envisioned. But it looks like Daniel just has to accept that Gentoo is no longer his project.

Reply Score: 3

Headrush Member since:
2006-01-03

After reading the entire thread its amazing how people in that thread and this one inject more into it.

You mentioned that Daniel gets upset and demanded things. Sure didn't sound like that to me. He was quite polite and asked for clarifications on several issues and McCreesh kept taking it personal and saying it was a personal witch hunt and to stop.

Seemed the point Daniel was making was not picked up. He said if certain "guideline/rules" exist they should be followed. Several of the responses were in the vain, developer X is productive so lets not do anything, or this "rule" is being broken here too, so why does it matter. No one ever said, these guidelines no longer exist, they said they have been ignored, or sidestepped, which is completely different.

Any project without clear goals/rules/guideline tends to ultimately fail. It's too late for me, after several years of being quite active within the gentoo community I have moved on.

Reply Score: 3

v Relevant?
by sbergman27 on Tue 13th Mar 2007 01:33 UTC
RE: Relevant?
by Kokopelli on Tue 13th Mar 2007 02:01 UTC in reply to "Relevant?"
Kokopelli Member since:
2005-07-06

Are either of Gentoo or Daniel Robbins actually relevant today?

Well Gentoo is relevant. While it may not be the most popular it certainly has a significant chunk of the more advanced users.

I only really pay attention to the Linux top 10. Gentoo dropped out of that and, last I looked, was falling fast.

I assume you mean the DW top 10? It has an upwards inclination at 6 months and up and is currently at 13. It won't break top 10 again probably but it does not appear to be dropping fast. Even Ladislav stresses that the popularity ranking should not be used as a measure of merit.

Daniel Robbins is an ex Microsoft employee trying to make friends with the Linux community. Good luck to him on that.

Personally, I think his career would do better if he returned to MS at this point.


Well he went to MS to try and help them understand and work with Open Source projects, I would hardly call that an evil goal. And he left because he was not using his technical skills.

I didn't have any too much respect for him when he founded that ridiculous distro.

I have somewhat less respect for him today.


So be it. It still stands that he founded and grew Gentoo to be one of the more significant Linux distros and that he has written some of the best technical introductions and tutorials available to this day on the subject of the Linux platform. There are many who have no respect for anyone who would work for MS, but that does not mean his accomplishments are insignificant. Luckily for us all acknowledgement of accomplishment and respecting a person are not dependent on each other.

Edit: spelling.

Edited 2007-03-13 02:05

Reply Score: 4

RE: Relevant?
by sdhays on Tue 13th Mar 2007 02:05 UTC in reply to "Relevant?"
sdhays Member since:
2007-03-13

Umm...as of today, Distrowatch's Top Ten Linux distributions has Gentoo Linux at #8. Calling Gentoo a "ridiculous distro" is just petty flamebait. I suppose your preferred distribution is "The Only One That Matters"™....

Edited 2007-03-13 02:12

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Relevant?
by Kokopelli on Tue 13th Mar 2007 02:19 UTC in reply to "RE: Relevant?"
Kokopelli Member since:
2005-07-06

To clarify Sabayon is at 8. While it is a Gentoo based distro it is not Gentoo itself. Sabayon is significantly easier to install and has a separate community.

So while it would be fair to say that a branch of Gentoo is at 8 right now, Gentoo is not.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Relevant?
by sbergman27 on Tue 13th Mar 2007 03:07 UTC in reply to "RE: Relevant?"
sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

Actually, as of today, using the default 6 month window, which seems fair considering that most distros release at six month intervals... Damn Small Linux holds the #8 position. Sabayon lies below that at #9. Followed by Slackware at #10 and Knoppix at #11.

Gentoo lies below those at position #12.

That's the six month window.

If you narrow it to 3 months or one month, it holds position #13, with Zenwalk and Mint just above it.

To me, that seems like a pretty major loss in relevance.

Seems like what we said about its lack of viability way back when turned out to be true.

Even the most faithful get tired of compiling... compiling... compiling... for no good reason.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Relevant?
by Kokopelli on Tue 13th Mar 2007 03:29 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Relevant?"
Kokopelli Member since:
2005-07-06

12? So it is, I must have been swapping dates a little too much. Even so slipping from 12 to 13 is not a major loss. Gentoo does not do much that is "news worthy" on DW, so it is not in the hit parade. When not on the front page, distros get hit less. The crowd is fickle so to speak.

I personally have tried Gentoo years ago but found it not worth the effort. I had a few broken packages here and there, but mostly found I preferred to not be bothered. Linux is my OS, not my hobby.

Sabayon, in the top ten, is Gentoo based. So it would seem at least for some the compiling is fine.

So while Gentoo may not be as popular as it once was, I would not call it in major decline. Gentoo has enough biomass that any decline will be slow, with time to recover before it is too late. But of course it is all a matter of opinion. You see it in decline, I see it as not in a flurry of activity.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Relevant?
by sbergman27 on Tue 13th Mar 2007 11:43 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Relevant?"
sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

"""
Sabayon, in the top ten, is Gentoo based. So it would seem at least for some the compiling is fine.
"""

Yeah. I just visited their website. The top forum topic was titled:

"Gentoo project is a mess. Time to move on?"

It seems that even the Gentoo derivatives are ready to jump ship.


"""
So while Gentoo may not be as popular as it once was, I would not call it in major decline.
"""


Well, they've dropped from #3 in 2002 to #13 now. I'd call that a pretty major loss of relevance.

Gentoo may not be relevant anymore, but this wallpaper certainly is:

http://tinyurl.com/2yybpg

Edited 2007-03-13 11:55

Reply Score: 0

RE[5]: Relevant?
by twenex on Tue 13th Mar 2007 17:41 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Relevant?"
twenex Member since:
2006-04-21

Yeah. I just visited their website. The top forum topic was titled:

"Gentoo project is a mess. Time to move on?"

It seems that even the Gentoo derivatives are ready to jump ship.


There would be little reason for someone to start a distro derivative if (s)he thought the distro was fine. So in that sense, all derivatives "jump ship".

Secondly, as of 17:37 GMT on the 13 May 2007, the top vote was for "they [Gentoo] will sort their problems out", with minimal support for moving to other distros like Ubuntu.

Thirdly, I haven't heard of any moves by Sabayon to switch package managers, which, when it comes down to it, are what make Gentoo Gentoo.

Finally, I'm not saying Sabayon users should stfu on the issue, but at the end of the day, it's like Americans and British expressing their views on what the other country's policy should be: (a) they may not understand all the issues and (b) they don't get a vote.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Relevant?
by dylansmrjones on Tue 13th Mar 2007 23:07 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Relevant?"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Even the most faithful get tired of compiling... compiling... compiling... for no good reason.

Don't trolling sbergman27. You are too good for that behaviour.

Nobody compiles... compiles... compiles... for no good reason.

#1 We don't compile... compile... compile... only ricers from other distributions do that. They upgrade everyday using emerge -uDN world (a sure way to break your homerolled distribution).

I compiled one package today, and that's because I chose to downgrade xchat. It took a few minutes. I can't remember the last time I compiled a package. Oh wait.. I compiled deluge a few days ago. But this excessive compilation you are talking about simply doesn't exist.

Apart from that compiling is quite rare for me. I usually only compile when there is GLSA which applies to packages on my system. And this happens rarely.

And please use statistics correctly. If you are looking at a 1 month-window, gentoo actually climbed one spot - getting ahead of Slackware (#14) ;)

gentoo is the highest ranking compile-from-source distribution. Of course compiling from source limits the user base. Most people don't want to create their own distribution - nor do they want to maintain it. gentoo is LFS on steroids, don't forget that. It's not a competitor to Ubuntu.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Relevant?
by sbergman27 on Wed 14th Mar 2007 00:09 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Relevant?"
sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

"""
And please use statistics correctly. If you are looking at a 1 month-window, gentoo actually climbed one spot - getting ahead of Slackware (#14) ;)
"""

I would never use the 30 day window. In a world where distros release every 6 months, 6 months is really the minimum meaningful window size.

There is really only one way to settle this.

We must organize a Celebrity Deathmatch between Ciaran McCreesh, Daniel Robbins, Patrick Volkerding, and Mark Shuttleworth.

You can work on the plane tickets. I'll work on the hotel accommodations. Who wants to be in charge of the arena rental?

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Relevant?
by dylansmrjones on Wed 14th Mar 2007 01:00 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Relevant?"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Hmm... Do you think there is an arena safe enough for this showdown? ;)

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Relevant?
by dylansmrjones on Tue 13th Mar 2007 23:47 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Relevant?"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Hmm... You are not accounting for the increased marketshare for Linux on the Desktop.

gentoo as #3 in 2002 had 326 hits per day.
gentoo as #12 for the last 12 months has 565 hits per day.

gentoo is ranked 9 places lower today, but the number of daily hits has increased with 73,31 %. That's not what I call a distribution in decline. It is just not growing as fast as other distributions.

Mandrake was #1 in 2002 with 473 hits per day.
In 2006 Ubuntu was #1 and had 2640 hits per day. That's quite a increase in Linux marketshare. You forgot to count in that factor.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Relevant?
by sbergman27 on Wed 14th Mar 2007 00:23 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Relevant?"
sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

""
Hmm... You are not accounting for the increased marketshare for Linux on the Desktop.
"""

I'm not sure what point you are making. Why *should* I account for it?

If a couple has a baby and that baby fails to grow at anything appoaching the normal rate, I wouldn't exactly call the venture a wild success.

To take another example, if I buy a portfolio of stocks and the DJ index increases by a factor of 6 over a period and my portfolio only increases by 73% over the same period, I don't think I'll be asked to manage any mutual funds as a result of my stunning performance.

To look at it another way, consider that "a rising tide lifts all boats". The tide has increased the depth of Linux Bay by a factor of 6. Gentoo has risen by only 73%. Again, we find the Gentoo Shipwreck under water:

http://tinyurl.com/2yybpg

Edited 2007-03-14 00:33

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Relevant?
by dylansmrjones on Wed 14th Mar 2007 01:05 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Relevant?"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

That would only be true if the new users in Linux were the same kind as 5 years ago.

This is however not the case.

gentoo has "failed" to attract most of the new users, but that's hardly surprising, considering they are not particularly gifted. Most of them have chosen Ubuntu, and I can support that. gentoo is not the right choice for a newbie. Ubuntu is however.

Just like I started with Redhat when Redhat was "the easy distribution". I later moved on, and some Ubuntu users will move on as well.

As the Linux userbase changes from the more geeky to the less geeky kind, gentoo will of course decrease its "marketshare" in relative numbers, though it will continue to increase in absolute numbers.

The fact you hate Robbins, the fact you hate source distributions, the fact you hate gentoo doesn't make your statements correct.

Calling it a silly distribution just shows me you have some sort of agenda against gentoo - for no technical reason btw.

Reply Score: 3

RE[6]: Relevant?
by sbergman27 on Wed 14th Mar 2007 01:36 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Relevant?"
sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

"""
gentoo has "failed" to attract most of the new users, but that's hardly surprising, considering they are not particularly gifted.
"""

Oh, but they are, in their own way.

It has been most surprising, and oh so very gratifying , to watch this group do such a fantastic job of supporting each other.

The Ubuntu forums are an excellent resource even for those of us who have been doing Unix for decades.

I find it quite gratifying that we've done our jobs well enough that they don't really need us anymore... as long as you don't go out of your way to make things hard for them.

"""
The fact you hate Robbins,
"""

Incorrect. I don't have a lot of respect for Robbins.

"""
the fact you hate source distributions,
"""

Also incorrect. Source-based distros are fine with me. Not my cup of tea. I don't see that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages, for most use cases. But variety is the spice of life. And I can see where source-based may tickle the fancy of people with different needs than mine.

"""
the fact you hate gentoo
"""

Also incorrect. Well, partially incorrect. I have a strong dislike for Gentoo and its proponents, based upon their behavior over the past several years.

This latest flame war has not changed my opinion on that count.

Edited 2007-03-14 01:37

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: Relevant?
by dylansmrjones on Wed 14th Mar 2007 02:29 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Relevant?"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Also incorrect. Well, partially incorrect. I have a strong dislike for Gentoo and its proponents, based upon their behavior over the past several years.

I wonder what you have encountered. Apart from Ciaran I haven't encountered anything bad. Actually it's been a very pleasant experience.

The Ubuntu forums are great yes. I frequent them as well - just like they frequent gentoo forums and gentoo documentation ;) - I usually point newcomers to Ubuntu since I doubt they want to compile sources. And Ubuntu is a great distribution (except for the default theme.. it's hideous ;) )

This "flamewar" is not representive for gentoo and you know that. I've seen critique from other persons too, and so far nobody has pointed out anything problematic in regard to technical elements. They all base their critique on ricers who left gentoo years ago.

"Disliking" a distribution because of some "users" alleged behaviour doesn't sound terribly mature to me. Especially not calling it silly and having disrespect for a person because he started a sille distribution. That's so much NotParker. And very unlike your usual self (makes me wonder about your experiences with certain gentoo persons).

Well, yes - the Ubuntu newcomers are gifted - but not technically gifted. I mean, a person who doesn't know what a partition is, should choose something else than gentoo - unless he/she wants to learn things the hard way (which I wouldn't recommend if they want a working system quickly).

Most of your statements about gentoo are extremely trollish and factual incorrect. I really wonder what kind of abuse you've received from these alleged gentoo users. It must have been bad.

Reply Score: 2

All things must change I guess...
by Kokopelli on Tue 13th Mar 2007 01:37 UTC
Kokopelli
Member since:
2005-07-06

I do not think Gentoo is in a crisis or dying any time soon, but it still is a sad day.

Daniel Robbins founded and structured Gentoo, but now it is not the project that he left. I have read the entire thread (thank you so much SirYes) and it does not seem to me to be as simple as Ladislav claims it to be.

DR feels that Gentoo related projects shoud be run by Gentoo developers and rights for such projects assigned to the Gentoo Foundation. Indeed that is a significant chunk of why it was created. Now he comes back and a project that is of major importance to Gentoo is run in all but name by somone who has been kicked out from Gentoo-Dev (twice I believe). Further he finds that copyright assignment is not only not enforced but has been dropped from the social contract. DR wants to focus Gentoo Development inside the "Gentoo Team," unfortuinately the management does not agree with that anymore.

[QUOTE]
Gentoo is only going to be fun and productive again if we:

1) maintain a courteous and professional atmosphere
2) focus on good, transparent project management and collaboration
3) deliver cool technologies to Gentoo users

AND IN THAT ORDER ONLY, which is the only order that works long-term. It makes no sense to try to do this in reverse order. It does not work. 3 requires 2 and 2 requires 1. Right now these three pillars are being treated as mutually exclusive goals which is absolutely
ridiculous and wrong, where we accept failure in point 1 in the hope
of achieving 3.
[/QUOTE]

That is his vision, and I sympathize with it. Alas Gentoo feel that ability and results mitigate these goals somewhat I guess. It will help the project perhaps but I do not think it will make it a more pleasant one to work on. Fortunately for the user community none of this matters all that much, as long as the hard work of the devs continues.

I hope DR finds a new project into which he can devote his energies. He has a true gift at writing technical papers as well as being a coder himself. The combination with an understanding of social dynamics is not common in the tech industry.

Reply Score: 5

gentoo crisis = poisonous people
by karl on Tue 13th Mar 2007 02:41 UTC
karl
Member since:
2005-07-06

I generally don't like re-posting comments I made elsewhere but I don't think I could formulate my thoughts any better:

"Poisonous people have won the day...what a shame.

I am sure that ciaran is not the only poisonous person in gentoo-dev land but until someone finally has the guts to really excise him from the project we won't even know who the others are. Oh don't get me wrong-he is a great programmer, he has made made plenty of great contributions to the project-but the vitriol and bile which pours out of his mouth like a fresh water mountain stream utterly overwhelms any positive contribution he could possibly ever make. When he was stripped of his dev status- people attacked those who did it, but stripping him of his dev status failed to even phase him-he now has more power in gentoo than he did before as an official dev. Hell Seemant was the one who mentored this guy-perhaps one of the best examples of a bad judgment call that could have been made-but at least Seemant now recognizes this-though this travesty is allowed to persist.

Daniel Robbins may have been wrong, factually, in many of the points he brought against ciaran-but his nose was functioning perfectly-even though he was unaware of so many things which had changed since his departure his nose led him directly to ciaran- of course why the olfactory nerves of so many other Gentoo devs have failed to pick upon and prompt appropriate responses to that particular stench remains an enigma, Of course this is all history now-Daniel resigned and the odor emanating from gentoo-dev land remains unabated. I wholeheartedly commend Daniel on resigning,even though it saddens me greatly, he would have been a fool had he remained. The utter spinelessness of so many in the face ciaran bodes ill for the entire project. His behavior has legitimized the culture of disrespect which led to flameyes departure, and of course many, many others. Even if Gentoo is winning developers at a faster rate than losing developers-one must remember -the new devs are joining a project with a foul culture, (the foulness of the project probably only encompasses 10-20 devs, a tiny fraction of the vast majority of truly great devs)-only those who tacitly accept such are going to join nowadays, which only further cements this entire problem. Excising him will not solve the problem-it will allow the problem to become fully visible.

I stopped actively contributing to these forums shortly after I encountered ciaran here. I was utterly baffled that such a jerk could speak with authority for the project- a project which I have supported since march 2002. Although I am not a dev I poured hundreds of hours in to helping others in these forums because I wished to give something back to those who had helped me so much. Of course this may all be just my problem, I tend to smell sh*t miles away. And of course I have contributed nothing positive here-just adding to the cesspool with my comment, but somewhere along the road I just stopped caring..."

I can only emphasize that it really hurt to have to write this-because I have really enjoyed using Gentoo since march 2002. The Distrowatch article really hit a sore point...sometimes the truth hurts. Do i believe that Gentoo will die because of this-no way. But if it continues down the path it has been going recently Gentoo will loose more than developers.

Reply Score: 5

Headrush Member since:
2006-01-03

Well said karl.
(I never encountered ciaran but can relate with another dev.)

People like to pretend things are OK, or this isn't new, but for us who have been actively involved, there is definitely a negative undercurrent you can feel with the distro.

Reply Score: 1

dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

(I never encountered ciaran...

You're one lucky bastard ;)

Reply Score: 2

Sphinx Member since:
2005-07-09

"Oh gosh someone's flaming us, abandon the project, we're being driven out", Sorry but all that pops to mind on that is, "What a bunch of pussies.".

Reply Score: 3

xhemi Member since:
2007-02-13

If this is all about drobbins vs ciaran then, probably, both sides of the table need to grow up. I 'm still a happy gentoo user and it is still my number one distribution.

Reply Score: 2

Gentoo users...save yourselves
by garymax on Tue 13th Mar 2007 03:36 UTC
garymax
Member since:
2006-01-23

If the good ship Gentoo is going down Slackware is just a few meters off your port bow ready to take in survivors... :-)

Reply Score: 1

RE: Gentoo users...save yourselves
by Sphinx on Tue 13th Mar 2007 14:27 UTC in reply to "Gentoo users...save yourselves"
Sphinx Member since:
2005-07-09

"Quick everybody leap from the sleek state of the art jet powered hydrofoil into the sinking rotten dinghy with only one oar." B-)

Reply Score: 2

sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

"Quick everybody leap from the sleek state of the art jet powered hydrofoil into the sinking rotten dinghy with only one oar."

In case you haven't noticed, the jet powered hydrofoil is on fire and about to explode. ;-)

Reply Score: 3

Sphinx Member since:
2005-07-09

Could make a difference ;-o

Reply Score: 3

sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

"""
Could make a difference ;-o
"""

Well, there's a brown luxury liner stern-side. And a red hatamaran off the port bow. (Remember Lidsville?)

Watch out for that green alligator!

Oops. I think the dinghy just capsized. ;-)

Edited 2007-03-13 15:58

Reply Score: 1

Confused about well everything
by cyclops on Tue 13th Mar 2007 07:30 UTC
cyclops
Member since:
2006-03-12

I love the overboard title...just a little. Does anyone here actually use Gentoo. On the main website http://www.gentoo.org/ you will see a stack of newsletters each contain a Moves; Adds; Changes. I would be happy for you to peruse all of those as the *impression* you get from those is Gentoo is gaining Developers on a weekly basis. BTW even for those who arn't interested the "Developer of the Week" section is must read...and I'm tempted to have the photos as my wallpaper.

Understanding Gentoo *is* a niche Distribution simply becuase it compiles from scratch. Whats interesting is that *new* Distribution's *based* on Gentoo are appearing , Sabayon being the most popular, is a direct result of Gentoo's success, and addresses 2 major complains *some* users will have when it comes to Gentoo. Ease of install, setting up a 3D destop. It will be my next install.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Confused about well everything
by twenex on Tue 13th Mar 2007 17:43 UTC in reply to "Confused about well everything"
twenex Member since:
2006-04-21

Yes, I use Gentoo. I may use Sabayon next time I set up a machine.

Reply Score: 2

Sabayon top forum topic @ Sbergman27
by REMF on Tue 13th Mar 2007 14:15 UTC
REMF
Member since:
2006-02-05

That was a discussion started by me, resulting from the original distrowatch article.

That thread, which i already linked here, resulted from my ignorance of gentoo and was as such a desire for better understanding.

I am a Sabayon enthusiast, not a Sabayon insider/guru, and my thread should be seen as such.

I like Sabayon because it comes precompiled with:
> bleeding edge packages
> multimedia codecs
> device drivers
> preconfigured bling
the fact that it uses gentoo is immaterial to me.

So you can see that i know nothing of gentoo, and merely wanted to know more in the light of Ladislav Bodnars grim editorial.

Regards

Edited 2007-03-13 14:19

Reply Score: 1

sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

"""
I am a Sabayon enthusiast, not a Sabayon insider/guru, and my thread should be seen as such.
"""

Yes, I know. But there was a great deal of support in that thread from the more experienced users, and from Sabayon devs, for abandoning the Gentoo shipwreck.

Reply Score: 1

Statistics due to boredom
by Kokopelli on Wed 14th Mar 2007 03:07 UTC
Kokopelli
Member since:
2005-07-06

Well sbergman27 got me to thinking and so I decided to look at the top 10 from 2002 and see where they are today (6 month window)

1. Mandrake: now Mandriva at #6. Reportedly with some cash flow problems and not without their own controversy of late.
2. Red Hat: now #28 so by standards of top 10 in danger of irrelevance as a commercial distro. (Tongue in cheek folks, relax.) Fedora is #3
3. Gentoo: now #12. Sabayon a branch is at #9. Sabayon is more a stretch than Fedora/RH but I mention for thoroughness.
4. Debian: now #7. Probably the most solid of old school distros in terms of popularity.
5. Sorceror: now #168.
6. Suse: #38 under Novell SLE. OpenSuse is #2. Looking grim for commercial distros....
7. Slackware: #10. A long time favorite of mine, though I have shifted to Debian and Ubuntu. I will always have a spot for Slack.
8. Lycoris: gone. Bought by Manriva.
9. Lindows: #44 under Linspire. Freespire is #18.
10. Xandos: #24

So out of the original top 10 none are as popular as the were in 2002 and most are not in the top 10. OpenSuse is more popular than Suse was in 2002 but I do not consider them the same distro. That is of course a debatable opinion. So choosing by looking at the top 10 does not look like a good way to make a long term decision.

What disturbs me more than someone disliking a specific distro is anyone wishing ill will towards it. Gentoo is not my cup of tea, but I wish all who use it the best and hope things smooth out for Gentoo. I do find distaste for some of the personalities involved in various distros but old no ill will towards any community. Negativity and bashing rarely helps anyone.

Reply Score: 2