Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 12th Mar 2007 23:02 UTC
Apple After yesterday's trip down memory lane with OS/2 2.1, I will today take you even further back. With the help of the recently released Apple Lisa emulator, ToastyTech (another invaluable tool for (G)UI fanatics such as myself) updated its set of screenshots from the Lisa Office System (version 3), the first commercially available graphical user interface for home use. "This Lisa emulator tries to give you the full experience of using an Apple Lisa. The backdrop is a photo of a Lisa that changes as the power light comes on and when you 'insert' a disk. It even plays the sound of the Lisa disk drive running as you access the disk. To start the emulator you must press the 'Power button' just as you would start a real Lisa." Read more for a few notes.
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Now...
by twenex on Mon 12th Mar 2007 23:55 UTC
twenex
Member since:
2006-04-21

...THIS is cool.

However, I'd question the assertion that the Lisa was the first GUI for home use...not many homes can afford to spend in the region of $10,000 on anything but a car - or the home itself. Business use - well-off-business use - yes.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Now...
by parrotjoe on Tue 13th Mar 2007 15:57 UTC in reply to "Now..."
parrotjoe Member since:
2005-07-06

Yes, in fact, the Lisa was intended for business use.

Reply Score: 1

Hmm
by Xaero_Vincent on Tue 13th Mar 2007 00:13 UTC
Xaero_Vincent
Member since:
2006-08-18

Wasn't it Xerox who invented the GUI with their Alto minicomputer system in 1972?

Anyway, yeah... Apple's computers were always expensive (even more than the original IBM PC).

But a computer with a GUI operating environment in the 1970's was quite amazing. It took over a decade later for the PC to get even a primative operating environment known as Windows 1.0.

Edited 2007-03-13 00:18

Reply Score: 2

RE: Hmm
by Kroc on Tue 13th Mar 2007 00:22 UTC in reply to "Hmm"
Kroc Member since:
2005-11-10

The GUI predates even Xerox Parc. However Xerox put together the first 'Digital Office', putting the GUI to practical use, introducing networking, servers, productivity apps and even the laser printer.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Hmm
by Doc Pain on Tue 13th Mar 2007 00:42 UTC in reply to "RE: Hmm"
Doc Pain Member since:
2006-10-08

"The GUI predates even Xerox Parc. However Xerox put together the first 'Digital Office', putting the GUI to practical use, introducing networking, servers, productivity apps and even the laser printer."

I'd like to add postscript support, fonts, and some of the gadgeds coming with "Vista" and promoted as "new" or "revolutionary", such as clock, calendar, mail notification. And 3D ego shooters. :-)

Just have a look:
http://toastytech.com/guis/indexxerox.html
http://media.arstechnica.com/images/gui/7-AltoST.jpg
http://www2.iicm.tugraz.at/cguetl/education/projects/mischitz/image...
http://toastytech.com/guis/altomaze.jpg

But we all know MICROS~1 invented the mouse, the universe and everything. :-)

Reply Score: 4

v RE[3]: Hmm
by ronaldst on Tue 13th Mar 2007 01:40 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Hmm"
RE[4]: Hmm
by helf on Tue 13th Mar 2007 02:05 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Hmm"
helf Member since:
2005-07-06

Doubt it. Something else would have sprung up ;) I mean, just look at all the OSes prior and after Windows. *something* would have come along.

Edited 2007-03-13 02:05

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Hmm
by BluenoseJake on Tue 13th Mar 2007 14:54 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Hmm"
BluenoseJake Member since:
2005-08-11

And something has really come along and knocked MS from the top, eh?

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Hmm
by helf on Tue 13th Mar 2007 19:47 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Hmm"
helf Member since:
2005-07-06

what the heck does that to do with what I said? MS has a strangle hold on the desktop market right now. It would be hard for anything to take over. The only one coming close is Apple right now. And their market share is peanuts.

If MS didn't exist, *some* other OS/company would have come around that would be huge right now. It was inevitable.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Hmm
by BluenoseJake on Wed 14th Mar 2007 02:40 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Hmm"
BluenoseJake Member since:
2005-08-11

No, I don't think it was inevitable, IBM is integral to the story, but not MS. if IBM had of stayed out of the personal computer business, I think there would be a lot more types of computers out there

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Hmm
by rayiner on Tue 13th Mar 2007 03:27 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Hmm"
rayiner Member since:
2005-07-06

That doesn't exactly follow. The technology for creating desktop systems has been invented independently many times. The idea of the technology being there for so long, but nobody bringing it to market is... unlikely.

Heck, even without Newton we still would have calculus (courtesy of Leibniz). We'd surely have desktop computers without Bill Gates, a far lesser figure!

Reply Score: 4

RE[4]: Hmm
by KevinG on Tue 13th Mar 2007 04:05 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Hmm"
KevinG Member since:
2007-03-13

If it wasn't for Microsoft, we'd actually wouldn't have been condemned to Win 9x in the 90s because we would have had operating systems by Digital Research, headed by the late Gary Kildall, who made the very first operating system for the home computer, as well as the programming language PL/M, CP/M(which was more advanced than DOS at the time when IBM was deliberating between DR and MS, as well as that operating system that made history), and several other things as well that were overshadowed by Bill, but were pretty important.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Hmm
by Kroc on Tue 13th Mar 2007 13:33 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Hmm"
Kroc Member since:
2005-11-10

Oh do shut up. Windows has been behind competitiors every year, year in year out. When Windows 1.0 was out, Lisa and Macs were years ahead. When Windows 3.0 was out, GEOS was years ahead technologically. Vista has just come out, with supprise supprise, all the features competitiors had between 2000-2006.

Reply Score: 4

RE[5]: Hmm
by Mike Pavone on Tue 13th Mar 2007 15:08 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Hmm"
Mike Pavone Member since:
2006-06-26

Oh do shut up. Windows has been behind competitiors every year, year in year out. When Windows 1.0 was out, Lisa and Macs were years ahead.
When Windows 1.0 came out the Mac couldn't even run more than one program at a time. The Switcher that allowed task switching didn't arrive until 86 and the Multifinder didn't come until even later. The Lisa and Amiga obviously had Windows 1.0 beat though, but the design goals were obviously different. Windows 1.0 needed to run on common IBM compatible x86 hardware and be able to run DOS programs and these goals limited Windows 1.0 for obvious reasons. This is not to say that Windows 1.0 would necessarily been the best desktop OS at the time had those restrictions not been in place, but I think it's an imporant consideration when making such evaluations. I love technology for technology's sake as much as the next geek, but it needs to be accessible and accepted by its target audience to be useful.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: Hmm
by alexandru_lz on Wed 14th Mar 2007 18:52 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Hmm"
alexandru_lz Member since:
2007-02-11

I just can't help myself. When Windows 1.0 came out, not only wasn't the Mac able to run more programs at a time, but neither was Windows 1.0 which didn't even have windows (sic!). The usefulness of Macs did come from the fact that some smaller applications, like the oh-so-famous calculator widget (desklets was their name in thos times?) could be ran along with the big application in front. As you note, in fact, the Switcher came out a few months after Windows.

How useful Windows 1.0 was for its audience can be seen in the number of copies it and Windows 2.0 sold. It was really not until Windows 3.0 that MS came even close, if not to MacOS (and surely not to the likes of Workbench or the already-around Unix workstations), at least to the likes of GEM.

BluenoseJake, you may want to know that widgets existed a long time before Konfabulator ;-).

As far as Lisa is concerned, I'd rather guess that the real problem was its price. A personal computer is a personal computer, and if a large institution can afford to pay -- how much was it? 9,995$? for a fscking computer, I can hardly imagine a home user spending that much in 1982.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Hmm
by BluenoseJake on Tue 13th Mar 2007 14:52 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Hmm"
BluenoseJake Member since:
2005-08-11

"I'd like to add postscript support, fonts, and some of the gadgeds coming with "Vista" and promoted as "new" or "revolutionary", such as clock, calendar, mail notification. And 3D ego shooters. :-) "

I'd like to mention that Apple had nothing to do with gadgets, Konfabulator existed long before apple came up with the Dashboard, and even the windows sidebar existed before that. Apple just stole the concept from Konfabulator, which at that time was a Mac only product, since then, they have moved to Windows

Reply Score: 2

RE: Hmm
by helf on Tue 13th Mar 2007 00:23 UTC in reply to "Hmm"
helf Member since:
2005-07-06

No, they didnt invent the GUI. They invented what we now associate "desktop computer" with ;)

They did invent quite a bit. But not everything.

This guys computer had most everything ;)

even video conferencing!

http://sloan.stanford.edu/MouseSite/dce-bio.htm

In the 60s no less.

Anyways, I'm pretty sick of everyone giving Apple the credit of "inventing the GUI"... *sigh*

But they just say "first commercially available" machine. Though I believe the Xerox Alto was actually sold some and the Star was available if you really wanted it, and I think before the Lisa. I could be wrong.

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: Hmm (+) "mother of all demos"
by fasteez on Tue 13th Mar 2007 09:32 UTC in reply to "RE: Hmm"
fasteez Member since:
2007-03-13

here the link of douglas engelbart demo.

http://video.google.fr/url?docid=-8734787622017763097&esrc=sr1&ev=v...

as said, they had pretty everything we have today ( except color ).. this video freaks me out more than Lost Season 1. ( love the keyboard sound lol )

I really think computer science didn't grew as fast as it can =).

edit : btw , that was my first osnews comment. cheers ^^

Edited 2007-03-13 09:32

Reply Score: 2

RE: Hmm
by brewmastre on Tue 13th Mar 2007 13:43 UTC in reply to "Hmm"
brewmastre Member since:
2006-08-01

Wasn't it Xerox who invented the GUI with their Alto minicomputer system in 1972?

The did come up with the design that Apple used but I believe it was just a research system that Xerox had created, not a commercial release. It was after all, created by Xerox PARC (Palo Alto Research Center). Apple was the first to present it to the masses.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Hmm
by tryphcycle on Tue 13th Mar 2007 16:10 UTC in reply to "RE: Hmm"
tryphcycle Member since:
2006-02-16

all this regurgitated chatter regarding the advent of the GUI. You's think people would have it down already! if you look at the Xerox Star and the Alto... and compare it to the Lisa and the Mac, you will see that they are NOT all that similar. Apple was the first to market with the "desk-top: metaphor.... the star and alto were TOTALLY different! they may have been the begining of the GUI, but apple did not COPY Xerox GUI. they just took the idea and RAN with it!

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Hmm
by Mellin on Tue 13th Mar 2007 16:26 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Hmm"
Mellin Member since:
2005-07-06

Apple hired some of the people from Xerox PARC

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Hmm
by Dave_K on Tue 13th Mar 2007 17:42 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Hmm"
Dave_K Member since:
2005-11-16

Actually the Xerox Star featured a desktop metaphor similar to that of the Lisa/Mac. Apple did come up with a decent number of new ideas, but there were more similarities between the Xerox and Apple GUIs than there were differences.

Maybe without Xerox and other pioneers leading the way Apple would still have developed a GUI. But without the work at Xerox it's pretty obvious that the GUI developed at Apple, and at every other company afterwards, would have been very different.

Reply Score: 2

Rounded windows
by stestagg on Tue 13th Mar 2007 00:29 UTC
stestagg
Member since:
2006-06-03

I'm just impressed that the Lisa guys felt confident enough about their spare clock-cycles to implement a calculator and clock with rounded windows!

Reply Score: 2

RE: Rounded windows
by Kroc on Tue 13th Mar 2007 00:31 UTC in reply to "Rounded windows"
Kroc Member since:
2005-11-10

There's actually an interesting story behind the rounded borders in Lisa! http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=Round_...

Edited 2007-03-13 00:32

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Rounded windows
by brewmastre on Tue 13th Mar 2007 13:46 UTC in reply to "RE: Rounded windows"
brewmastre Member since:
2006-08-01

<it>There's actually an interesting story behind the rounded borders in Lisa! http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=Ro... [/i]

Yes, folklore.org truly does rock! Especially if you are Mac/GUI/Computer History freak like me. Everyone should check it out, you might learn something ;)
http://www.folklore.org

Reply Score: 1

Drool
by Jon Dough on Tue 13th Mar 2007 00:50 UTC
Jon Dough
Member since:
2005-11-30

I remember seeing the Lisa in a magazine -- I think it was Byte, but am not sure. In any event, I really wanted it! Would've been a lot better than my TRS-80 Color Computer! Alas, I had not the funds to purchase it....

Reply Score: 2

Advertising campaign
by Myrd on Tue 13th Mar 2007 02:13 UTC
Myrd
Member since:
2006-01-05

I think the biggest mistake with the Lisa was the advertising campaign.

Check it out:
http://www.pisoftware.com/images/esquire/page-8.jpg

I'm sure Bill saw that ad and... well you know the rest of the story...

Reply Score: 1

RE: Advertising campaign
by stestagg on Tue 13th Mar 2007 14:57 UTC in reply to "Advertising campaign"
stestagg Member since:
2006-06-03
Takes me back
by Sphinx on Tue 13th Mar 2007 03:02 UTC
Sphinx
Member since:
2005-07-09

Long, long ago hard drives were rather large expensive things and a customer crashed without a backup. I took it to a drive repair and data recovery shop down the road and dropped it off, when I picked it up I had to go around the back to delivery, looked in a window and there it was, this enourmous clean room cut into aisle after aisle of Apple Lisa workstations manned by people in what appeared to be some sort of white space suits, very surreal.

Reply Score: 2

Video demo
by StephenBeDoper on Tue 13th Mar 2007 05:24 UTC
StephenBeDoper
Member since:
2005-07-06

I recently came across an old video demo of the Lisa:

http://youtube.com/v/a4BlmsN4q2I

The OS/2 article from yesterday reminded me of it, mainly the way that now-basic concepts are explained in great detail.

Reply Score: 2

Needs ROM
by pandronic on Tue 13th Mar 2007 11:27 UTC
pandronic
Member since:
2006-05-18

Unfortunately, the emulator is not very useful if you don't happen to have the ROM and the OS. So, how do you find software for a 30 year old computer system?

Edited 2007-03-13 11:28

Reply Score: 1

RE: Needs ROM
by Fransexy on Tue 13th Mar 2007 12:15 UTC in reply to "Needs ROM"
Fransexy Member since:
2005-07-29

how do you find software for a 30 year old computer system?

In this case, Emule (or other P2P app) is your friend ;)

Reply Score: 1

My Lisa was great.
by elwebst on Tue 13th Mar 2007 11:45 UTC
elwebst
Member since:
2005-12-19

After years of toiling with a cassette based TRS-80 model 1 and then an Apple ][ (with TWO diskettes, I may add!), running UCSD Pascal and Apple FORTRAN, getting a Lisa was a godsend.

It had a hard drive. A HARD DRIVE! 5MB! More room than you could possibly ever fill. Sure, you had to turn it on first, and let it stabilize a bit before turning the Lisa on, but it rocked. You could then fire up the Modula-2 compiler.

Alas, I had gotten it by promising to write a dental office records system for a friend of my dad's and never got around to it, so he took it back. Sigh. Back to the Apple ][.

Reply Score: 1

Sometimes I wonder..
by felipe on Tue 13th Mar 2007 12:17 UTC
felipe
Member since:
2007-03-13

Sometimes I wonder, do I, like, need medical attention?

Sometimes I wonder why you don't leave remarks like that where they belong - on your blog ;)

Reply Score: 2

RE: Sometimes I wonder..
by Thom_Holwerda on Tue 13th Mar 2007 13:50 UTC in reply to "Sometimes I wonder.."
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Sometimes I wonder why you don't leave remarks like that where they belong - on your blog ;)

OSNews IS a blog.

Reply Score: 1

Happy Mac?
by HappyGod on Tue 13th Mar 2007 12:22 UTC
HappyGod
Member since:
2005-10-19

I wonder if anyone knows of a Mac Classic emulator?

This was the PC of choice at my High School, and I remember being hugely impressed at MS Word on the tiny, greyscale screen (WYSIWYG ... Wow!).

All I had at the time was Word Perfect 5.1. Although I still maintain that WP 5.1 had the best Print Preview screen (It had this 3D fly over view). Not bad for a PC running at 20Mhz.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Happy Mac?
by Constantine XVI on Tue 13th Mar 2007 13:00 UTC in reply to "Happy Mac?"
Constantine XVI Member since:
2006-11-02

There's a few Mac emulators around. Either Basilisk II or Mini vMac should do the trick. Naturally, it needs the system ROMs and whatnot. As Thom mentioned, you can find most of them on Apple's website.

Reply Score: 1

Heh
by dylansmrjones on Tue 13th Mar 2007 14:27 UTC
dylansmrjones
Member since:
2005-10-02

Sometimes I wonder, do I, like, need medical attention?

No, just a perfectly normal geek ;) You don't need more medical help than the rest of us ;)

Reply Score: 2

RE: Heh
by fretinator on Tue 13th Mar 2007 16:22 UTC in reply to "Heh"
fretinator Member since:
2005-07-06

Sometimes I wonder, do I, like, need medical attention?

You do not [yes you do] need medical [psychological] help, you are [not] fine [sane]. Don't [foget to] listen to the voice[s] in your head. Got it?

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Heh
by dylansmrjones on Tue 13th Mar 2007 23:39 UTC in reply to "RE: Heh"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

We agree with you ;) - and yes, that's all of me agreeing with all of you.

Reply Score: 2