Linked by Thom Holwerda on Tue 13th Mar 2007 22:50 UTC, submitted by Bryan Østergaard
Gentoo "Triggered by recent examples of bad behavior and dissatisfaction among developers and users alike, the Gentoo Council has drafted a new Code of Conduct that will be enforced for both developers and users. The draft of the Code of Conduct is currently being discussed on the Gentoo-dev mailing list."
Order by: Score:
A reasonable...
by dylansmrjones on Tue 13th Mar 2007 23:50 UTC
dylansmrjones
Member since:
2005-10-02

...draft.

I hope it works for us - and one can always dream that it'll bring back some (if not all) of the devs that have recently left us.

Reply Score: 2

RE: A reasonable...
by sbergman27 on Wed 14th Mar 2007 04:55 UTC in reply to "A reasonable..."
sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

"""
I hope it works for us - and one can always dream that it'll bring back some (if not all) of the devs that have recently left us.
"""

An office manager that my company had years ago... one that I worked with for 14 years... said something to me that I have always remembered. Her name was Bonnie Graham, and I miss her a lot.

She said:

Ten "Ataboys" is worth one "Oh Shit". (That's a quote.)

I've always remembered that.

And it is so true.

Reply Score: 3

Why the need?
by WarpKat on Wed 14th Mar 2007 00:04 UTC
WarpKat
Member since:
2006-02-06

I honestly don't see the need for a code of conduct here.

The fact remains that Gentoo users and developers, save for anyone who has had the best sense to abandon ship, have shown a lack of maturity that is resonating through the open source channels - and I'm quite sure Redmond is watching this one closely to use in some kind of PR move in the near future despite the localization of the problem.

If it requires a code of conduct just to bring everything, and everyone, under control and to squelch the throwing of sand in the schoolyard sandbox, then it's not worth it to use.

What do I see the need for? Growing up - and that's something just about anyone can do without anything written.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Why the need?
by twenex on Wed 14th Mar 2007 00:06 UTC in reply to "Why the need?"
twenex Member since:
2006-04-21

First Open source = communism, now open source = immaturity?

What next, open source = Martians?

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Why the need?
by CrazyDude0 on Wed 14th Mar 2007 00:49 UTC in reply to "RE: Why the need?"
CrazyDude0 Member since:
2005-07-10

twenex next is: Open source = developers' fun, users' nightmare.

Sad but it is true.

Edited 2007-03-14 00:50

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Why the need?
by crystall on Wed 14th Mar 2007 10:13 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Why the need?"
crystall Member since:
2007-02-06

twenex next is: Open source = developers' fun, users' nightmare.

Not if the user is a developer ;)

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Why the need?
by twenex on Wed 14th Mar 2007 19:58 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Why the need?"
twenex Member since:
2006-04-21

I have to disagree. I couldn't develop software to save my life. I have difficulty figuring out what icons I need to use to run spyware and virus checkers on Windows. I may have posted on the comedic effect it would have produced on anyone to see me eject a disc on a Mac the first time I did it. Yet I LOVE Linux.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Why the need?
by sbergman27 on Wed 14th Mar 2007 03:03 UTC in reply to "RE: Why the need?"
sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

"""
First Open source = communism,
now open source = immaturity?
What next, open source = Martians?
"""

Twenex,

Open Source = People.

That pretty much implies all the rest.

Except maybe Martians... ;-)

Reply Score: 4

v RE[3]: Why the need?
by bryanv on Wed 14th Mar 2007 18:09 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Why the need?"
RE[4]: Why the need?
by sbergman27 on Wed 14th Mar 2007 21:54 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Why the need?"
sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

"""and People = stupid."""

Some are. Or at least they act as if they are. Our current US President, for example.

I could come up with some counter-examples. But I'll quote Jean-Luc Picard rebutting Q's assertions, instead. He, with a little help from Shakespeare, stated my position with far greater eloquence than I ever could. (I don't think that even William Shatner ever did it so well.)

Look to the future, Bryan. We don't always display our best qualities, in or out of the Open Source fishbowl, but they are there:


'''
No. I know Hamlet. And what he said with irony I prefer to say with conviction.

"What a piece of work is man! How noble in reason! How infinite in faculty. In form, in moving, how express and admirable. In action, how like an angel. In apprehension, how like a god... "

I see us one day becoming that, Q. Is that what concerns you?
'''

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Why the need?
by TechGeek on Thu 15th Mar 2007 16:53 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Why the need?"
TechGeek Member since:
2006-01-14

Your partially right. People are stupid. And the vast majority use windows, so that should give you a clue.

But seriously, Gentoo devs need to get some respect. I read the dev thread where Robbins quit (again) and all I got to say is DAMN! You let a developer of his caliber walk out over something stupid? I dont know the guy he had a beef with, and he may be a great developer. But you HAVE to give some respect to the guy who started the project. Regardless if you like him or not.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Why the need?
by Soulbender on Wed 14th Mar 2007 03:03 UTC in reply to "RE: Why the need?"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

RMS vs the Martians
Coming to a theater near you soon.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Why the need?
by sbergman27 on Wed 14th Mar 2007 03:04 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Why the need?"
sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

"""
RMS vs the Martians
Coming to a theater near you soon.
"""

Is Mothra in that?

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Why the need?
by fretinator on Wed 14th Mar 2007 14:50 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Why the need?"
fretinator Member since:
2005-07-06

RMS vs the Martians
Coming to a theater near you soon.


[SPOILER BELOW]

The Martians are foced to type their demands in Emacs. They get so frustrated, they hop in their ship and go back to their planet (known as Nigel VI in their native tongue).

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Why the need?
by stestagg on Wed 14th Mar 2007 17:35 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Why the need?"
stestagg Member since:
2006-06-03

MSFT vs the Martians II
(AKA. Spaceballs 2, the Sequel)

[Plot Summary]

The Martians regroup, use their long-range-uber-sensitive radio receivers to download a pirate copy MS Windows/Office and set off again. After entering Earth's atmosphere, WGA calls home to MS who dispatch the black helicopters. Upon landing, the entire Martian Army finds themselves badly outnumbered by Microsoft Lawyers who manage to file an injunction against the use of Ray guns before they are all wiped out. After a five-year court battle to decide whether "surrender demands can be accepted if written on pirated software", the Martians settle the case by giving Microsoft exclusive distribution rights on Mars and subcontract out the 'global domination' bit to the newly formed Microsoft Defence division.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Why the need?
by apoclypse on Wed 14th Mar 2007 00:49 UTC in reply to "Why the need?"
apoclypse Member since:
2007-02-17

You have seen Steve Ballmer's keynote speeches right? Talk about immaturity. Developers indeed.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Why the need?
by jessta on Wed 14th Mar 2007 05:57 UTC in reply to "Why the need?"
jessta Member since:
2005-08-17

If it requires a code of conduct just to bring everything, and everyone, under control and to squelch the throwing of sand in the schoolyard sandbox, then it's not worth it to use.

So you're saying that we should stop using Gentoo, one of the more unique distributions, just because some of the developers have some personality clashes?

Companies don't close up shop because some of their employees don't get along, they try to fix them problem. Why should a community group be any different?

Reply Score: 5

RE: Why the need?
by StephenBeDoper on Wed 14th Mar 2007 06:39 UTC in reply to "Why the need?"
StephenBeDoper Member since:
2005-07-06

The fact remains that Gentoo users and developers, save for anyone who has had the best sense to abandon ship, have shown a lack of maturity that is resonating through the open source channels

Eh? That's a pretty abrupt shift from the specific to the general.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Why the need?
by Sphinx on Wed 14th Mar 2007 15:01 UTC in reply to "Why the need?"
Sphinx Member since:
2005-07-09

Geez what a load of hysterical horse shit. Damn those gentoo using bastards, doing linux right and ruining open source for everyone. Oh stop it you kids, Redmond is watching, yeah, like somebody gives a flying f--k and that could actually matter outside of that paranoid delusion.

You put down ground rules and enforce them equally so nobody feels left out, squelched or favoritism, it's what keeps fights from breaking out in the schoolyard and yes, surprisingly in society at large. You know, those law things. It's what grown-ups do in and out of the sand box all over the entire planet.

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: Why the need?
by poohgee on Wed 14th Mar 2007 15:31 UTC in reply to "RE: Why the need?"
poohgee Member since:
2005-08-13

*sigh* ;) true +1

Reply Score: 1

RE: Why the need?
by abraxas on Wed 14th Mar 2007 15:22 UTC in reply to "Why the need?"
abraxas Member since:
2005-07-07

If it requires a code of conduct just to bring everything, and everyone, under control and to squelch the throwing of sand in the schoolyard sandbox, then it's not worth it to use.

I don't agree. It's unfortunate but any time you get together so many people with differing viewpoints these things are bound to happen. This is why every school, job, and club out there has some kind of code of conduct and the ones that don't usually end up having serious personnel problems.

Reply Score: 2

Re: Why the need?
by Petter on Wed 14th Mar 2007 00:27 UTC
Petter
Member since:
2007-03-14

Yes, I'm sure that Microsoft doesn't have anything like a code of conduct; they're all sufficiently grown-up that they can be trusted to interact smoothly without anything written.

There are immature people everywhere. They must be denied entry or managed.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Re: Why the need?
by abhaysahai on Wed 14th Mar 2007 01:43 UTC in reply to "Re: Why the need?"
abhaysahai Member since:
2005-10-20

Who says that Microsoft( I mean big established software companies in general) do not have infightings. They have and have lots of it, however, they do not have a dev mailing list through which the fights ( very strong difference of opinion) is made public. The corporate culture is like this. I can say this as I am part of this culture. If you have a difference with your peer, or even your manager and it is known to the HR, they make sure that one of you is shifted to a different department so that you don't face each other.
Its the old theory, Out of sight out of mind.
They simply do not wash dirty linen in public.
Ofcourse, this decent arrangement happens when both the parties are willing for such a settlement.
Sadly there is no such thing possible in opensource.
The mailing lists reveal all and reveal to all.

Due to this big difference, I believe we should have a code of conduct in opensource world.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Re: Why the need?
by rdean400 on Wed 14th Mar 2007 02:31 UTC in reply to "Re: Why the need?"
rdean400 Member since:
2006-10-18

You can bet your bottom dollar that Microsoft *does* have a corporate code of conduct. Good corporate management means making sure your employees follow the standards of behavior (mostly aimed at sexual harassment, conflict of interest, compliance with applicable laws and regulations, etc).

As far as petty conflicts are concerned, I think any manager worth their salt would fire the instigators involved (unless they're CEO, of course).

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Re: Why the need?
by Soulbender on Wed 14th Mar 2007 03:12 UTC in reply to "RE: Re: Why the need?"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

"Good corporate management means making sure your employees follow the standards of behavior"
"As far as petty conflicts are concerned, I think any manager worth their salt would fire the instigators involved"

You've never actually worked in a real company of size, have you?
Office politics, intrigues and petty conflicts is the order of the day.

Reply Score: 5

Some alternatives....
by stephanem on Wed 14th Mar 2007 00:50 UTC
stephanem
Member since:
2006-01-11

1) Money is a very strong motivator (contrary to what OSS zealots tell you - everybody has a price). Pay people to code - RMS has said money and open source are very compatible.

2) If you don't have money to pay then try something like this: Pay to play - you pay Gentoo.org $10,000 for the privilege of coding (if you love coding for freesoftware) and if you f*** up you forfeit that money. If you play by the rules, you get get your money back when you want to quit.


PS: Thinking about it some more #2 is actually a pretty cool idea - it helps Gentoo.org with keeping the lights on and the ftp servers humming.

Edited 2007-03-14 00:53

Reply Score: 0

RE: Some alternatives....
by dylansmrjones on Wed 14th Mar 2007 01:16 UTC in reply to "Some alternatives...."
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

However - it has nothing to do with the issue at stake. It's not about how to motivate people to develop - it's about how to make people treat eachother right. Money doesn't matter here.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Why the need?
by FishB8 on Wed 14th Mar 2007 01:33 UTC
FishB8
Member since:
2006-01-16

Why the need? Because if you don't have a code of conduct that devs have pledged to abide by, then you have no means to toss their ass out when they misbehave. In small groups, it's easy to maintain an atmosphere of general respect and common curtosy. But the larger a group becomes, the more it becomes like a mob and rules like this have to be created. Gentoo has outgrown the rules by which it was origionally set up, and must adjust to deal with the changes.

Personally, I think Gentoo devs should watch this video: http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=-4216011961522818645

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Why the need?
by WarpKat on Wed 14th Mar 2007 01:44 UTC in reply to "RE: Why the need?"
WarpKat Member since:
2006-02-06

Yes, granted, it must change, but if you don't have mature people in the group that grows to begin with, it won't grow in the right direction.

I think the fact remains that there are some in the different groups of Gentoo which just simply need to be kicked out without question or debate - those who have caused problems by name calling or flaming - the children, if you will.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Why the need?
by butters on Wed 14th Mar 2007 05:21 UTC in reply to "RE: Why the need?"
butters Member since:
2005-07-08

I really enjoyed that video. Thanks for the great link!

Reply Score: 3

Bad behavior is universal
by zztaz on Wed 14th Mar 2007 01:33 UTC
zztaz
Member since:
2006-09-16

I read about Gentoo's problems just after watching the Google Speaker series video by two of the Subversion project leaders:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4216011961522818645

As they point out, this is not confined to Open Source projects. It happens in corporate software development, too, out of public sight. It's not confined to software, either. All groups deal with people who make trouble: church groups, sports leagues, schools, all kinds of groups. Even web sites ;-)

A defined Code of Conduct helps, and should be backed up with documented procedures.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Bad behavior is universal
by RandomGuy on Wed 14th Mar 2007 14:56 UTC in reply to "Bad behavior is universal"
RandomGuy Member since:
2006-07-30

Thanks for the link!
The video is rather long but the guys make some interesting points and illustrate their ideas with examples of real world projects.

Reply Score: 1

Who Cares?
by puggle on Wed 14th Mar 2007 02:02 UTC
puggle
Member since:
2007-03-14

I mean, if the Gentoo community wants to eat their own, then let them. There's way too many Linux distros anyway, and it's time there was some consolidation of the effort in order to more effectively challenge MS.

Who needs another vanity distro?

Reply Score: 1

I Care
by dylansmrjones on Wed 14th Mar 2007 02:19 UTC in reply to "Who Cares?"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

I'm a gentoo user, and so far no other distribution has kept me so satisfied as gentoo.

OTOH there is no crisis for gentoo ATM despite some blog coverage. This is especially true for the community. You should see the many posts in gentoo-user about this. yup.. 0 posts... nada. That's so much this crisis is. Nada.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Who Cares?
by B12 Simon on Wed 14th Mar 2007 10:13 UTC in reply to "Who Cares?"
B12 Simon Member since:
2006-11-08

If we were talking about another repackaged Ubuntu, glossier Debian or localised Fedora I'd agree wholeheartedly.

I'm not a Gentoo user but appreciate its uniqueness amongst a sea of Deb/RH clone distros. Definitely one worth saving!

Reply Score: 2

RE: Who Cares?
by Sphinx on Wed 14th Mar 2007 13:49 UTC in reply to "Who Cares?"
Sphinx Member since:
2005-07-09

mean, if the Gentoo community wants to eat their own, then let them. There's way too many Linux distros anyway, and it's time there was some consolidation

A contradiction, squabbles lead to forking which leads to ever more distributions, not less.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Who Cares?
by twenex on Wed 14th Mar 2007 18:29 UTC in reply to "Who Cares?"
twenex Member since:
2006-04-21

I'm not even going to bother trying to counter the "There are too many Linux distributions, we need One Linux Distribution To Bind Them All" argument.

Instead, I'm going to ask: When (not if) those putting forth the argument are proven wrong, will you FINALLY eat humble pie?

I'm not betting on it.

Reply Score: 2

For users?!?!?
by Brandybuck on Wed 14th Mar 2007 04:14 UTC
Brandybuck
Member since:
2006-08-27

A code of conduct for users? This isn't rocket science, just dump rude posters from the mailing lists. It's what nearly every other community does.

Reply Score: 4

Not a bad idea
by siraf72 on Wed 14th Mar 2007 04:31 UTC
siraf72
Member since:
2006-02-22

A code of conduct is a very good idea. I was recently part of a special cross departmental task force at work. At times the conduct of people that were otherwise very nice was terrible (think forming, storming, norming...). We agreed a code of conduct to ensure that disagreements would be more civil.

This is good practice.

Reply Score: 2

other code
by mieses on Wed 14th Mar 2007 04:44 UTC
mieses
Member since:
2006-02-07

it seems open source projects are starting to attract 'leadership' types who spend more time on politics rather than coding (not coding of conduct, the other kind).

they need a structure that discourages people with ambitions to management and politics.

Reply Score: 1

RE: other code
by B12 Simon on Wed 14th Mar 2007 10:09 UTC in reply to "other code"
B12 Simon Member since:
2006-11-08

Do you think any large, successful open source project would've got anywhere without decent leadership?

The linux kernel itself owes a lot to Linus's leadership as well as his (and the other developers') coding skills.

Reply Score: 2

smyptom
by Rapsey on Wed 14th Mar 2007 05:33 UTC
Rapsey
Member since:
2005-08-08

Poor conduct is a symptom of poor management.

Reply Score: 2

Netiquette?
by xhemi on Wed 14th Mar 2007 09:24 UTC
xhemi
Member since:
2007-02-13

so you should still adhere to
http://www.albion.com/netiquette/corerules.html

Reply Score: 1

RE: Netiquette?
by dylansmrjones on Wed 14th Mar 2007 10:57 UTC in reply to "Netiquette?"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

One would imagine so ;)

Reply Score: 3

v Mderation
by A.O.K. on Wed 14th Mar 2007 14:26 UTC
RE: Mderation
by dylansmrjones on Wed 14th Mar 2007 15:41 UTC in reply to "Mderation"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

### SARCASM BEGIN ###

Yeah sure - that would solve everything.

### SARCASM END ###

Vet du hvad, Ove? Lægg fanatismen din fra dig. Det er aldeles upassende i dette forum. Fortsæt stilen din og du får en tegning mere.

Reply Score: 2

v RE[2]: Mderation
by A.O.K. on Wed 14th Mar 2007 16:29 UTC in reply to "RE: Mderation"
Gentoo Code of Conduct
by Clinton on Wed 14th Mar 2007 15:52 UTC
Clinton
Member since:
2005-07-05

Code 1: All members of the Gentoo development team must act older than 2.

Done.

Reply Score: 2

First Rule
by briber on Wed 14th Mar 2007 16:28 UTC
briber
Member since:
2007-03-14

The first rule in the Gentoo Code of Conduct is:

Nobody talks about the Gentoo Code of Conduct.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Who Cares?
by puggle on Thu 15th Mar 2007 03:29 UTC
puggle
Member since:
2007-03-14

@twenex:

"I'm not even going to bother trying to counter the "There are too many Linux distributions, we need One Linux Distribution To Bind Them All" argument.

Instead, I'm going to ask: When (not if) those putting forth the argument are proven wrong, will you FINALLY eat humble pie? "

See, you need to take your head out of the sand long enough to read this week's news:

Dell Computer is *toying* with the idea of offering Linux pre-installed on its products, but is hesitant to do so because it cannot yet figure out *which* Linux.

The business consideration here is that Dell can't reasonably offer support for more than a very few Linux distros, if indeed more than one. And, when they asked the Linux community which Linux distro to go with, guess how many answers they got?

So you see, in the REAL world, hardware makers are hesitant to offer Linux-based products because of the proliferation of Linux flavors.

YOU might think that having over a hundred distros is healthy for Linux, but if it slows the adoption and hardware support of Linux, I sure can't see that it's a very healthy situation.

And, by the way, I have no intention of eating humble pie anytime soon, but if I may, can I pass you a napkin?

Reply Score: 1

RE: RE: Who Cares?
by SReilly on Thu 15th Mar 2007 17:37 UTC in reply to " RE: Who Cares?"
SReilly Member since:
2006-12-28

I'm afraid it is you who do not understand, specifically the Linux kernel. There could be 1 billion Linux distros out there, they still all use the same base, the Linux kernel. If a machine has support for one distribution, it will have support for all.

Even though any distribution may change, add or remove certain elements, the fact remains that any additions to the kernel must be released as GPL software and therefore will eventually be absorbed into the kernel proper.

Dell are only interested in what most people would like to see on they're machine. They know that one size fits all.

I think it's time you took that napkin out of the washing machine, ironed it and tucked it in.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: RE: Who Cares?
by Morin on Thu 15th Mar 2007 22:47 UTC in reply to "RE: RE: Who Cares?"
Morin Member since:
2005-12-31

> I'm afraid it is you who do not understand, specifically the Linux kernel.
> There could be 1 billion Linux distros out there, they still all use the
> same base, the Linux kernel. If a machine has support for one
> distribution, it will have support for all.

There is a huge difference between a machine that works together with a distro, and a machine that comes preloaded with a distro and with support.

But yeah, go ahead and tell Dell that they are stupid if you think that solves the problem.

Reply Score: 2