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same thing for me

dell already support novell... very easy to support opensuse

"""
There's one vote for Novell SuSe. :-)
"""

A fine choice!

I voted for Ubuntu.

But it doesn't really matter. I don't care if it's Suse or Ubuntu or Fedora or Linspire or Xandros.

If the box comes with any of those, I know I can make all its hardware work with Linux.

As long as its not Gentoo or Windows that they preload, I'm happy as a clam!

I was with you until you said no preloaded Gentoo. If Dell will precompile a Gentoo desktop for me I will sing their praises from the highest mountain. I currently use Ubuntu but if someone's willing to do the work for me, sure I'll use Gentoo.

Not true. If you're talking about desktops maybe, but I want to run Gentoo on a laptop and don't want to jump through hoops to get things working on an unsupported laptop.

Yes, I can build my own desktops for gentoo, but not my own laptop.

Gentoo is aimed at experienced Linux users, precisely the kind of person that would probably NOT buy a Dell.

Maybe, maybe not. Ever thought that the reason why "experienced Linux users" would not buy a Dell is that until now (hopefully, anyway), Dell has been "firmly a prisoner of the Wintel monopoly" as a friend would put it? If they preload Gentoo, maybe Gentooers will come.

I DO think it's unlikely, but neither stupid, moronic nor "spitting in the face of all logic".

While I agree that there're better distros to preload (I'd probably pick ubuntu or kubuntu), that's just because gentoo installs stuff from source, which takes more time.

User friendly? You have GUIs for it's package manager, same as on other distros, and apps are launched the same way: click on the icon. You'll be using kde/gnome/E/whatever anyway, it's not as if gentoo had it's own deliberately-obfuscated-only-suitable-for-geeks desktop environment.

Desktop-optimized? Just bundle a ck patched kernel.

Graphical installer? What for, if it'll be preloaded? You could still go with a gentoo derivate such as vidalinux, if you really thought the installer was a must.

Support on the web? Well, it's hard to beat gentoo's documentation and community support.

If you haven't voted yet, please stop reading this discussion now and fill out the survey!!

These are truly exciting times to be a Linux and/or free software enthusiast. The community has been fed its share of lip service and toe dragging in its quest to see Linux made available to the mass market. From the Lenovo T60p press release to Dell's recent Ideastorm, we have become accustomed to being recognized by OEMs, but we had yet to see any real consideration on their part. They seemed to realize that not everybody wants Windows, but they didn't seem to be open to the possibility that the market for Linux desktop clients is potentially huge.

These past few weeks, IMHO, represent a turning point in the way the Linux desktop market is perceived by the top-tier OEMs. Big screens and fast CPUs are nice, but what consumers really want these days is better software. They want reliable and efficient software that's easy and fun to use, and they want a comprehensive desktop experience right out of the box.

The big OEMs are currently offering us incredibly powerful computers with the same crufty and bare-bones selection of software we've been getting for over a decade. It's time that OEMs add real value to their products by actually offering a desktop system, not just a PC with Windows and maybe Office.

Anyone can build a Windows PC and sell it for razor-thin margins. OEMs have to innovate to remain profitable, and a great way to do this is to bundle their PCs with a well thought-out free software desktop implementation. Everything you need to be productive, right out of the box, with tons of additional free software easily available, automatic updates free-of-charge, and not a single product key involved.

It's great that we continue to impress and overwhelm Dell other OEMs with the size, strength, and support of our community. It's important that we reach out to these OEMs and support their efforts to understand and serve our community. As knowledgeable Linux users, we're their best source of information, and we shouldn't hesitate to offer our insights. A high-quality and successful Linux desktop product from a top-tier OEM would obviously be huge for Linux and free software in general. I look forward to doing my part as Dell and other OEMs take serious steps toward making this happen, and I encourage you all do the same.

What he said.

You're a cool guy Butters. :-)

100% agreed.

Big screens and fast CPUs are nice, but what consumers really want these days is better software. They want reliable and efficient software that's easy and fun to use, and they want a comprehensive desktop experience right out of the box.

Sounds like something a Mac would provide more than Linux. I would never recommend Linux to anybody who just wants it to work out of the box, unless they had a resident Linux guru next door. Of course, I wouldn't recommend Windows in this senario either, but there are a lot of Windows gurus around

Anyone can build a Windows PC and sell it for razor-thin margins. OEMs have to innovate to remain profitable, and a great way to do this is to bundle their PCs with a well thought-out free software desktop implementation.

Only problem is, for better or worse, the only way a lot of these companies are able to make money from selling PCs rock-bottom prices is by bundling 'crapplets' with the OS, such as MacAfee, etc. If you take this away by offering nothing but free software, you have removed a significant source of revenue stream for the OEMs.

If I were Dell, this is what I would do ...

There's no way in hell I would offer Linux out of the box and effectively double my support costs by having to train tech support on another OS that less than 5% of the population would end up using for the foreseeable future. Plus, if you were to choose one distro over the others, that's just a pissing contest waiting to happen.

So, I'd make a PC model that included hardware that was compatable with the latest versions of:

- Ubuntu
- Suse
- Fedora

... and offer the PC without an OS with no support whatsoever, with the condition that I could guarantee that the hardware would work with the above Linux distros. I mean, I wouldn't bother to write device drivers myself, but simply use devices that already work with zero configuration necessary on the user's part.

IMHO, I think most Linux users would be happy with the above configuration, as they're used to fending for themselves anyway. At least they'd know that the hardware was going to work out of the box.

Edited 2007-03-14 05:21

Agreed, just some small objections. First, in some countries there's a law saying you can't offer fully built PC's without the OS. So Dell would have to slap something in there anyway. Sure, they can use FreeDOS, but it would be a nice touch to actually put Linux on them, if they're going for the Linux compatibility and all. They can ask Ubuntu/SuSE/Mandriva to prepare disk images, offer them as a choice, and just paste them on top of the HDD, without support. I bet Ubuntu/SuSE/Mandriva would like the opportunity. Red Hat might too, if Fedora wasn't an already established "test distro", and their main effort directed to the server market.

Second, make no mistake, this is not about Linux. It's about Dell's profits. Which are slipping, and you can search the Roughly Drafted articles for figures that put it behind HP and Apple. And don't think Microsoft is taking this lightly. Dell must be pretty desperate to try to cash in on the Linux crowd. For their sake I hope they get the 100% compatibility right and refrain from bundling any crapware, otherwise they'll lose whatever small favor they build up and lose the Linux crowd forever.

And one for OpenSuSe. I wouldn't mind Ubuntu either though. Actually, I wouldn't mind *any* distro, providing that everything works (all hardware including sound, wifi, ... and software such as Compiz/Beryl, 3D accelleration enabled, ...)

"""
Dell should stop wasting our time with their silly polls, if they have no plans to really offer a Linux option.
"""

Well, they say that they are overwhelmed by our responses and that their survey server is overloaded.

Probably an automated response.

Maybe if we turn it into a cloud of vapor, they'll notice?

Edited 2007-03-14 00:54

Who said that they are not interested? They're a huge company, they have to get it right... it will cost loads of money to correct it latter if they f*!k up. It's not like you installing a linux distro and seeing that it's not for you.

Dell could have thousands of customers complaining, they need to know what they're complaining about so that they can recieve the correct trainning (the technical support people). What's the point in dell training people to use <your choice of linux> when maybe only two people a year want to buy a PC with it pre-installed.

At least give them a chance to get it right before you moan... I don't know why Dell bother. They're damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Edited 2007-03-14 07:44

"Personally I'm not interested in Linux and would instead love to see a FreeBSD desktop variant as an option besides 'other'."

Well, at least it is an improvement over forcing Windows on users.

"""
Personally I'm not interested in Linux and would instead love to see a FreeBSD desktop variant as an option besides 'other'.
"""

Hey. Here's a clue. Start making FreeBSD usable by regular people on the desktop. Spend about 15 years doing the PR and marketing work.

And get a journaling filesystem while you're at it.

FreeBSD is not an option because the FreeBSD community has not done what it takes for FreeBSD to become an option.

Do that and I'd give you my vote in an instant.

There is far more to success in this market than just technical concerns.

Edited 2007-03-14 01:03

Hey. Here's a clue.

No need to be so aggressive, man.

Start making FreeBSD usable by regular people on the desktop.

They've started, and they're not too far behind Linux. They're on par with OpenSolaris x86 in desktop usability.

Spend about 15 years doing the PR and marketing work.

They've been around for 15 years. Linux owes a lot of its market exposure to Red Hat. When Red Hat first came around, FreeBSD was arguably better than Debian or Slackware.

And get a journaling filesystem while you're at it.

Did some idiot hijack your account? UFS2 has soft updates, an alternative to journaling that orders and delays metadata writes such that the filesystem always remains consistent. The advantage of this approach is that the filesystem can be mounted immediately after a crash and purged of orphaned data blocks by a garbage collector during idle times. The disadvantage is that it's a more sophisticated and difficult design than journaling. This is the main reason why filesystem research has largely abandoned soft updates in favor of copy-on-write (COW) designs such as ZFS, which is now functional on FreeBSD and slated for the 7.x release series.

So the question is, why doesn't Linux go get a COW filesystem? Well, they're working on it, but it will take a few years.

FreeBSD and OpenSolaris are both very viable base operating systems for the free software desktop. Sure, Linux has more momentum, and it's the most successful distributed development community the world has ever known, but it's too early to count them out. They're all really good, and I'd love to see all of them distributed by the various OEMs. That would be outstanding for the competitive landscape of the free software desktop, ensuring rapid advances in the quality and capability of its foundations.

Edited 2007-03-14 03:24

'They've started, and they're not too far behind Linux. They're on par with OpenSolaris x86 in desktop usability.'

-- the distance between BSD and Linux is about as wide as the distance between Linux and Windows. No offence to you and your choice of OS, but until normal people start talking about BSD you won't see it on any dell.

And not just technical differences. I'm a windows user, but I'm aware of Linux and BSD and as far as I'm can see from screenshots they look the same. Why would I care if dell offers bsd or not? Don't mention technical reasons... the normal user couldn't give a sh!t if the code behind BSD is more elegantly written and more efficient or whatever other reason you have for using BSD.

You can hope for it, but don't hold your breath

"the distance between BSD and Linux is about as wide as the distance between Linux and Windows."

Since you're a Windows user who's just "aware of Linux and BSD" you're not really one to make that statement.

"Why would I care if dell offers bsd or not? Don't mention technical reasons... the normal user couldn't give a sh!t if the code behind BSD is more elegantly written and more efficient or whatever other reason you have for using BSD."

So then there's actually no good reason for Dell NOT to offer BSD instead since they're pretty much technically equal and Joe Average wouldn't care?

Two Words:

PC-BSD

FreeBSD doesn't have the drivers home users will want.

Things like WebCams, amoungst other USB devices, for instance...

Where's the second word? I see just one, maybe you should have taken the hyphen away if you wanted two words ;-)

Personally I'm not interested in Linux and would instead love to see a FreeBSD desktop variant as an option besides 'other'.

Well, I'm a 100% linux guy and don't care about FreeBSD. Someone loves Ubuntu, someone SLED, someone RH. See the pattern? No real solution here.

This why I specified other and said I would like "works with linux" sticker. Most of the linux HCL hardware can be supported if not yet in any other OS. Linux is just the best starting point because it has the biggest number of drivers. In your case one could just get two cases, you probably wouldn't like the predefault FreeBSD (and you're probably capable to set it up your self), FreeBSD could take on some drivers if needed because if they would be picked from HCL it would mean they can be implemented in FeeBSD too.

In case of HCL hardware they could just put all choices on the menu. Each and every one would work out of the box and their both free versions have very good community support. While in case of commercial, customers would buy that one too.

FreeBSD is at the same state in user adoption terms as linux was some years ago. A very capable server and developer/hobbyist desktop.

Until the BSDs are getting the sort of press and user base that linux is now, you're stuck with win or lin.

At least you'll be able to buy a Dell linux box without the "Windows tax" you'd have to pay if you bought one now.

Besides, are you telling me that as a FreeBSD user you'd accept Dell's install and not want to roll your own? :o)

I totally fail to see what FreeBSD offers over Linux for the average Dell buyer.... am prepared to be enlightened

xxmf

That's fair enough, but, even if Linux came preinstalled, whatever distro was chosen there'd be a fair few (perhaps the majority) of us (Linux users) would buy these systems in preference to a Windows machine, even if they had to reinstall their own favourite Linux distro. But (a) at least we'd know that the hardware was supported in Linux, and (b) at least we wouldn't be paying money to a corporation whose software we weren't going to use (and hopefully (c) at least we could get them at the same price or cheaper than Windows machines). I realize (a) might not apply to FreeBSD users, but (b) and (c) should.

I agree whole-heartedly. Having the product is not enough. Dell needs to give it a full hearted attempt, and not something that is simply to look like they're trying.

There have been a lot of advances since 2001, especially in the desktop market. More and more people are seeing Linux as a viable alternative desktop for average users. Also, I believe that when Linux was offered before by Dell, there was little to no marketing, and only a limited selection.

I think Dell would be surprised by the growth of desktop linux. There are plenty of vendors that can handled contracted support (Red Hat, Novell, Canonical).

Dell could really profit from being the first top-tier OEM to offer pre-installed Linux. I believe there is a larger demand for Linux by both enthusiasts, home users, and businesses. All Dell needs is solid products with Linux, and decent marketing. If they really want to share in the spirit, they could even approach LoCo's and developers of different distros to gain their input on strategies.

Just tout the good aspects of Linx and the cool features it offers.

I agree 100%. Or 99%. How a about a FREE photo, video and music studio? Thousands of FREE downloadable programs just ONE click away? FREE secure, spy-safe internet communication and protected disk storage? Fancy some powerful office tools as well, well why not some FREE ones? And what do you say about this FREE and slick 3D desktop? Still need to use some MS every now and then - take this FREE virtualizer (psst, this is also great for backuping your windows system or run the exact same system on both a laptop and a desktop if you need to)!

:-)

I think you overdid the "free" a little :p

I'd rather they'd emphasize, "quality".

Haha, just got a bit excited there. But nah, I don't think quality is so important anyway, as long as I get some FREE beer to go :-)

It's sad to say but, at least in Spain, the "free" is not the way.

I'm the only person I know who doesn't have pirated software on his/her computer. So, they have all for free so... what's the point?

And about quality... people just want their stuff to work, they don't care about anything. They want photoshop to work (even if it's cracked), they want to be able to install the sync app for their cell phone...

As said before: sad, really sad

Damnshock

Linux needs advertisment where it really counts! TV, radio, magazines, bill boards, subway stations, etc.

Ads are useless if you don't have a good brand...that's why I voted for Ubuntu. Is it the best distro? Well, to each his own. I use it and I like it, but I'm sure there are other good distros out there - however, for the home desktop, there's no other distro that resonates with as many new users as Ubuntu.

Dell could also provide a Dell-themed Ubuntu derivative for their business PCs, though I'm pretty sure that for those they would rather go with Novell/SuSE.

there's no other distro that resonates with as many new users as Ubuntu.

That might be true for geeks who spent too much time on the internet (like me), but I'll be you that among your average computer literate windows user, who may or may not be considering linux, Red Hat is far more known. My former totally non-techie boss knew that Red Hat was something you could install on your servers instead of windows, hell my parents have heard of Red Hat. I'll be you non of them have heard of Ubuntu.

So it really depends on who Dell wants to attract.

Actually my personal experience contradicts yours somewhat. What I found is that people who did hear about Linux a couple of years ago are more likely to know RedHat, while those who have heard of it more recently tend to identify Linux with Ubuntu.

In any case, I wasn't necessarily talking about name recognition, but about the general response to the brand itself. I've had co-workers come up to me and ask me if I knew anything about this new "Ubuntu" thing, not knowing that this was the distro I ran (well, Kubuntu, but close enough).

What you say may have been true at a certain point, but I do believe that Ubuntu has in fact stolen the spotlight from RedHat as the one with the most mindshare at this point.

What's a "hobbiest"?

Perhaps you meant "hobbyist"?

A pet peeve of mine.

"loose", "loosed", and "loosing" are top tier.

"hobbiest", I suppose, could be considered second tier.

SMART is almost a universal package manager, although it doesn't support some of the niche package formats like Pacman or Conary.

Developing software for Linux won't be hard when various standards like LSB are targetted. Linux distributions that are compliant with the standards should be fine. Distros that deviate from the norm, such as GoboLinux, will have to figure out a way to get the software to work themselves.

As for your experience with Dell:

The only companies not driven by the desire of money are non-profit organizations. But even they must recieve donations inorder to fullfill their tasks.

Having worked at Dell I can tell you the "desire of money" is much worse than anywhere I have ever worked. Its soul crushing.

Also, I now work for a non-profit and we receive no donations.

"1. Download, Run, Next->Next->Next->Finish->Installed.
2. Insert CD, wait..., wait..., click Install, etc...
3. Extract Zip file, find Setup.exe, run it. "


too hard...
on the web you risk to take a virus or spyware...

it's easier on linux to install a software...
go on the package manager and click....

That is if there is a package manager, and it has repositories that are up to date and not on a CD.

Not to mention fine-grained power management, ultimate tweakability (overclocking anyone?), crash dumps from the BIOS, remote management of an unresponsive system, securing the superuser account, a BIOS that isn't primary meant to hide the secret functionality of the hardware...

With a full-featured free software operating system in firmware, the possibilities are endless. If combined with a dedicated ARM service processor, it could be revolutionary.

Edited 2007-03-14 04:07

very good points re: LinuxBIOS, plus improved battery support. They could also rebrand it, change code (and contribute back) and do anything they wanted to as well. Hopefully Dell will see the benefits of LBIOS that the OLPC is getting, because that one machine itself is pretty damn revolutionary.

http://fosdem.org/2007/interview/ronald+g+minnich

"
OLPC is designed from the start as an open system. The chip specs are wide open (with one or two exceptions still being resolved); the board schematics are there for all to see. Because the system is open, OLPC can avoid using "standards" such as ACPI, which mainly exist to protect closed interfaces. OLPC can thus integrate functions into the firmware and kernel that, on other systems, would be locked away in the BIOS and ACPI. OLPC as a result will have far better control over power, and hence far better suspend/resume performance, than any laptop in existence. This improvement will be dramatic -- the system will resume so fast it will seem instantaneous. And, it will have a battery life that will be equally surprising for people used to commercial laptops.

OLPC will show what is possible with an open system that is not oriented to preserving proprietary interfaces and information. The customers will benefit, and, we hope, put pressure on other laptop vendors to provide a similarly high quality environment.
"

Edited 2007-03-14 05:26

Nice site and products, but:

We only ship to within the United States and Canada.

Does anyone know about a similar site for people leaving on the other side of the pond?

rehdon

Linuxemporium and Transtec ship laptops with Ubuntu/Suse/+ optional Windows, and no OS, respectively. However, although I have bought CD's from LE in the past I have no idea what either of these co's laptops is like:

http://www.linuxemporium.co.uk/

http://www.transtec.co.uk/

"""
If it DOES indeed happen, and you can sell ice cold lemonade to people in Hell,
"""

I imagine that the Lemonade market in Hell would be a very good one. You should patent that business model!

I suspect that the distro, should Dell ship one, would be SLED, simply based upon technical considerations. And business considerations, too. SLED is designed for this use more than any other.

I'm far from a Suse fan. Don't care for Suse myself, really. I voted for Ubuntu.

But SLED probably makes a lot of sense and I'd be happy to see it offered.

Who put the bee in your bonnet?

I also voted for SLED but not because i prefer it over others, but because of all the distros mentioned it is easiest to support. Truthfully i am supprised fedora was even mentioned with how buggy it tends to be.

To me in business applications SLED is by far the best bet. The same is true for newb home users. Honestly, even experienced users will benefit from this because they will have a system that ships with guaranteed full linux compatability.

If dell goes through with this and is successful, you will see a lot more webcams, soundcards, and video cards that have SLED and Windows both listed on the compatability list. And if it works with suse, it likely works with most every other distro.

I might add before anybody flames ... i will be very supprised if SLED doesn't get the vote if Dell does this. I am a Gentoo, Arch, and FreeBSD user primarely, so I am far from being in the Suse camp. For the greater good I swollowed my pride and voted for NLED instead of clicking other and typing Gentoo or Arch.

If Dell does this and advertises this so the world knows, I will buy from them if for nothing else, just to support their effort to support Linux.

Dell won't change. Dell has dipped their fingers in this before and Microsoft spanked them for it.

If their linux sales put them back ahead of HP I'm pretty sure Dell's willing to sell linux. As for Microsoft, well they can always hope the DOJ gets it's teeth back after the next election. (A man can dream anyways)

Answer on why no BSD :

http://www.dellideastorm.com/

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