Linked by Adam S on Mon 2nd Apr 2007 21:53 UTC
OSNews, Generic OSes After several modifications, feature tweaks, and revisions, please feel free to beta test our revision of OSNews.com version 4. Recently introduced to the site? Amongst many other things: Themes! Read on for a more complete changelog!
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The new version is great!
by binarycrusader on Mon 2nd Apr 2007 22:23 UTC
binarycrusader
Member since:
2005-07-06

The themes solved my primary gripe. The new functionality works as expected, and I especially like the threaded view now. Since you added the themes support, I've been using www4.osnews.com as my bookmark to OSNews instead of the "old" www.osnews.com address.

As a subscriber, thanks!

Edited 2007-04-02 22:23 UTC

Reply Score: 4

RE: The new version is great!
by yuvaraj on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 13:05 UTC in reply to "The new version is great!"
yuvaraj Member since:
2005-07-08

I agree with you. Themes were something that i was looking for. I have started to like the new look and feel

Reply Score: 2

Ad banner covers OSNews logo
by GMFlash on Mon 2nd Apr 2007 22:33 UTC
GMFlash
Member since:
2006-06-30

At the top of the page the OSNews logo is partially covered by the advertisement banner when viewing in IE7.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Ad banner covers OSNews logo
by kwanbis on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 02:24 UTC in reply to "Ad banner covers OSNews logo"
kwanbis Member since:
2005-07-06

just use something better ... opera or firefox come to mind ;)

Reply Score: 1

I'm easy
by sbergman27 on Mon 2nd Apr 2007 22:43 UTC
sbergman27
Member since:
2005-07-24

Just present interesting news in a readable format and I can't imagine wanting much more. I find that the features that even the current site has do more to get in the way than to enhance the experience.

Dump moderation completely.

And I believe that there is a special place in Hell for people who want "Ignore Lists". If you don't care about a topic, you can just ignore those posts. And if you do care, you need to be keeping an eye on what the trolls are up to, anyway; Do you really want to be so out of band WRT what people are saying around here?

And it's so easy to ignore the truly useless stuff.

Just use your eye muscles to deflect your eyeballs down the page a tad. That's the most flexible filtering system imaginable.

Private messaging sounds nice for those private conversations that people can't have in public without Thom showing up to impose his "authority".

Other than that, the *current* site is impressively serviceable, as long as you have AdBlock+.

That's my honest opinion, and please take it as such.

Edited 2007-04-02 22:47

Reply Score: 5

RE: I'm easy
by flanque on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 03:31 UTC in reply to "I'm easy"
flanque Member since:
2005-12-15

Some good points. AdBlock Plus helps even more.

Reply Score: 2

Default theme suggestion
by leos on Mon 2nd Apr 2007 22:49 UTC
leos
Member since:
2005-09-21

Well the default theme is a lot better than it used to be. Well-delineated comments instead of everything flowing into one.

One thing I miss is the blue highlight of scores that are high, so either the user's average score, or their comment score. It makes it easy to see which comments are modded up at a glance. Please add this to the default theme.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Default theme suggestion
by ma_d on Mon 2nd Apr 2007 23:58 UTC in reply to "Default theme suggestion"
ma_d Member since:
2005-06-29

I did notice this as well and it was a nice feature of the old version.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Default theme suggestion
by korpenkraxar on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 12:43 UTC in reply to "Default theme suggestion"
korpenkraxar Member since:
2005-09-10

I agree with the blue high scores.

However, I am a little pissed that the two best looking new themes in my mind "ColonSlashSlash" and "Orange Platinum" are for subscribers only. They definately look much simpler to the eyes than the other ones. I like the v3 look better than the "Classic" in v4 for this reason as well, the latter has too many sharp contrasting lines between boxes.

Other than that, good job! You're getting there :-)

Reply Score: 1

Why change something beautiful?
by rx182 on Mon 2nd Apr 2007 22:54 UTC
rx182
Member since:
2005-07-08

OSNews v3 is like the Windows "classic" UI: perfect. I love the site as it is right now. It simply couldn't be better. It's perfect (at least to the end-user).

The new site is looking too much like a generic web 2.0 community site (I hate that!). Seriously, the web is becoming too generic. It's becoming so dull.

That said, I've no problem with the new site as long as you keep the current one going (maybe http://www.osnews.com/classic ?). Please :|

Reply Score: 5

RE: Why change something beautiful?
by miscz on Mon 2nd Apr 2007 23:01 UTC in reply to "Why change something beautiful?"
miscz Member since:
2005-07-17

I think we need true OSnews v3 clone for v4. Current one looks horrible, has strange spacing and wrong padding. Everything I can hope for is OSnews V3 with V4 features.

Reply Score: 5

Adam S Member since:
2005-04-01

We're not backporting changes. They require javascript and lots of editing of the source. So your option is no upgrade at all. If that's preferable, let me know. I'll take v4 down.

Reply Score: 1

rx182 Member since:
2005-07-08

We're not backporting changes. They require javascript and lots of editing of the source. So your option is no upgrade at all. If that's preferable, let me know. I'll take v4 down.



Taking it down would be painfull for those who developed it but I think alot of readers agree with the fact that OSNews v3 is *perfect*.

It happens sometimes...

Reply Score: 2

Adam S Member since:
2005-04-01

I think alot of readers agree with the fact that OSNews v3 is *perfect*.


I don't think a week goes by that I don't get email from someone who is tired of page loads for moderation, or upset that they can't toggle things inline, or requesting a new feature. Believe you me, though some of you may exist, I think there are LOTS of people who think v3 is far from "perfect." People said the exact same things about version 3 when we were using version 2. And after user feedback, we introduced threading, themes and more: http://www.osnews.com/story.php/11684/OSNews++/page3/

People are creatures of habit and adjusting to change is hard. But don't think that since you're comfortable in v3 and that several people are pining for the theme means that there is a large group of people who aren't clamoring for changes.

Edited 2007-04-03 15:39 UTC

Reply Score: 1

dejf Member since:
2007-04-03

What are the v4 features good for? I use OSnews for more than five years and registered today to put my words to this debate. Good things should not be changed, many good technological webs ended after image remake - good authors left and the visual change was meant primarily to cover it, is't there similar problem with OSnews?

Reply Score: 0

iarann Member since:
2006-05-14

That said, I've no problem with the new site as long as you keep the current one going (maybe http://www.osnews.com/classic ?). Please :|

Hence the Classic theme choice, which is pretty close.

I for one like the changes, especially the theme option. The issues I had with the last test were definetly resolved. Great job.

Reply Score: 3

giraffe Member since:
2006-10-13

The old site is beautiful, and normally I hate when people just change things around for no apparent reason. However, in this case, I'm psyched about how this site is looking. I love the pale green color scheme, and so far it seems less cluttered and easier to navigate.
Good job!

Reply Score: 2

flanque Member since:
2005-12-15

Yeah I agree. More work needs to go into the classic theme before I'll be happy. The current v3 theme is beautiful. It's actually one of the reasons I use osnews.com as the first site I check each day.

Reply Score: 5

Adam S Member since:
2005-04-01

More work needs to go into the classic theme before I'll be happy.


What specifically are you unhappy about in the classic theme?

Reply Score: 1

kramii Member since:
2005-07-22

For me:

1. It simply doesn't render properly in IE 6 (Version 6.0.2800.1106). For some articles, I have to select the text of the article's teaser text to make it visible.

2. The left nav appears to have vanished.

Reply Score: 1

flanque Member since:
2005-12-15

The layout just seems too bloated. Maybe I just don't want to learn something new, but if you'd duplicate the v3 theme, to v4, then I'd be happy.

In the end I'll still visit, but I wont be happy about using the new theme.

Reply Score: 2

yuvaraj Member since:
2005-07-08

I guess they have the classic theme for all the guys like us

Reply Score: 1

RE: Why change something beautiful?
by dejf on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 15:46 UTC in reply to "Why change something beautiful?"
dejf Member since:
2007-04-03

+1

Reply Score: 1

hmm
by poundsmack on Mon 2nd Apr 2007 23:22 UTC
poundsmack
Member since:
2005-07-13

is it just me, but i like osnews jsut how it is. simple, pulls up fast on slow internet connections. personaly frmo an end user asspect I see no real reason to cahnge it. unless its just hard to mantain in its current form on the back end...

Reply Score: 5

RE: hmm
by Adam S on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 00:26 UTC in reply to "hmm"
Adam S Member since:
2005-04-01

is it just me, but i like osnews jsut how it is. simple, pulls up fast on slow internet connections.


Which is interesting since v3 is LOADED with extra HTML and v4 is streamlined.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: hmm
by ormandj on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 00:51 UTC in reply to "RE: hmm"
ormandj Member since:
2005-10-09

Likely any "slowdown" people experience is related to the browser needing to do more work, not the actual size of the page being transmitted.

I don't know how to describe it (as per usual...), but on slower machines I utilize from time to time, sometimes loading slick/css heavy/etc sites seems to "pause", while the page is being rendered out. Plain HTML sites - even with lots of "cruft" - (in other words, pages that sparingly use CSS/javascript/etc) tend to load faster.

That said, I actually (after the theme changes) am starting to appreciate v4 over v3. I don't have to gouge my eyes out, and the new functionality is nice. ;) Also, I don't browse on a slow machine, so page rendering speed isn't an issue - and I know the ease of maintaining the page/bandwidth/etc benefits of the new design have got to be respectable.

Reply Score: 2

RE: hmm
by Cass on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 01:40 UTC in reply to "hmm"
Cass Member since:
2006-03-17

Agreed, i Very much prefer the old site, the new one just sucks imho, too hard to read, everything is to the left ... what exactly is wrong with the current design, well sorry theme, i userstand the tech implications of the change .. Also bloody adverts, fair enough if your putting them top/bottom/left/right but in a thread reply then thats just bollox, orig site does not do this as i have seen ......

Reply Score: 2

loading page poroblem
by Sabz on Mon 2nd Apr 2007 23:31 UTC
Sabz
Member since:
2005-07-07

Didn't login properly for me, loged me in but didnt refresh itself to the actual page, had to click Home, apart from that, nice job

Reply Score: 1

Please keep the v3 theme
by chocobanana on Mon 2nd Apr 2007 23:46 UTC
chocobanana
Member since:
2006-01-04

I'm not against v4, but since you're offering themes for the new version, is it possible to keep the v3 exactly as it is right now instead or together with the "new" classic?

Also this would be excellent to illustrate the choice for new optional themes, which I think it is great for everybody.

Please, pretty please, it's so cool!

I also want to add that the new themes are not so nice because they tend to get close to web 2.0 websites and we already have plenty of those. The v3 layout works very well because it makes OSNews distinctive in a way that it resembles old OSs - certainly cool for some OS enthusiasts - like said in the previous comments.

And the logo, I'm not sure if it is the best replacement, I think the actual one is nice and already with established recognition. The new is a relative departure from the actual's language so I suggest that if you feel you need a cleaner logo, maybe only eliminating the O and S shading and filling with a solid color could do the trick.

Edited 2007-04-03 00:01

Reply Score: 5

RE: Please keep the v3 theme
by korpenkraxar on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 15:44 UTC in reply to "Please keep the v3 theme"
korpenkraxar Member since:
2005-09-10

I also want to add that the new themes are not so nice because they tend to get close to web 2.0 websites and we already have plenty of those. The v3 layout works very well because it makes OSNews distinctive in a way that it resembles old OSs - certainly cool for some OS enthusiasts - like said in the previous comments.

Bingo! :-D

I think most of us appreciate the features, coding efforts and thought behind v4, but also love the v3 theme with the thin "sunken" lines and subtle greyish shades. It makes OSnews special compared to most other sites. Heck, I could even use it as a desktop theme :-)

The new classic theme has too "fat" lines everywhere that distracts from the contents of the text fields.

Reply Score: 1

As I've said before...
by Anon on Mon 2nd Apr 2007 23:56 UTC
Anon
Member since:
2006-01-02

YOU NEED TO PADD THE NEWS BLOCKS OUT.

Seriously, the news listings just look like a glump of text with an icon on it, which makes my eyes bleed.

http://www4.osnews.com/

Put some basic padding-bottom, or line-height css attributes to space the 'Title' from the 'written by' from the 'content' and then some more padding around the icon ffs.

If you want an example of how to make news listing entries look a bit better, look @ http://digg.com/

Reply Score: 5

RE: As I've said before...
by dejf on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 15:56 UTC in reply to "As I've said before..."
dejf Member since:
2007-04-03

Put some basic padding-bottom, or line-height css attributes to space the 'Title' from the 'written by' from the 'content' and then some more padding around the icon ffs.

Much betters would be to wipe all the css out making the web readable and usable even on systems that the site is about... I find it absurd: making simple good thing about, in many cases old and in many ways limited, all oses usable only on small part. Somebody has fallen onto head from a strawberry ;)

Reply Score: 1

Too Wide
by ma_d on Mon 2nd Apr 2007 23:56 UTC
ma_d
Member since:
2005-06-29

The new version is nice. But I have to make my browser too wide to get the sidebar on the side. I'd appreciate the text just getting that much narrower if possible!

Just cause I have a wide screen monitor doesn't mean I want my browser to use it up!

Reply Score: 4

RE: Too Wide
by kmarius on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 10:17 UTC in reply to "Too Wide"
kmarius Member since:
2005-06-30

I agree. I don't want my browser using my entire screen. It's very annoying having to resize my browser just to visit OS News.

Reply Score: 1

DHofmann
Member since:
2005-08-19

If I change the text size in IE6, the text in the menus doesn't adjust accordingly.

Reply Score: 1

Agee with others ...
by WorknMan on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 00:16 UTC
WorknMan
Member since:
2005-11-13

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. And it definitely ain't broke. Just as long as I can put on a v3 skin, I'll be good to go ;)

Reply Score: 5

RE: Agee with others ...
by valnar on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 00:23 UTC in reply to "Agee with others ..."
valnar Member since:
2006-01-17

I like the default (current) theme the best.

Reply Score: 2

Too many advertisements
by blixel on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 00:23 UTC
blixel
Member since:
2005-07-06

I don't mind change, when it's for the better. A proverbial new coat of paint every now and then is nice. But I honestly don't think the new design is better. I think it's a step backwards.

The main thing I don't like about it (personally), is how every other story appears to be sitting on the background. With the existing theme, every story appears in a block. It's a lot more clear the way it is now.

Also, the new version is way too cluttered with ads. There are google ads in between some articles! Too pushy.

Reply Score: 3

Ad-crazy and ugly new logo
by gtada on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 00:40 UTC
gtada
Member since:
2005-10-12

I realize that ads keep costs down, but wow does this new version go overboard!!! Ads between comments?!!

Also, the new logo is an abomination. The "O" looks like an eyeball, and the outline around the logo is simply unnecessary and adds complexity. See where that outline gets pinched between the letters? UGLY. Add to it a very unattractive color scheme that doesn't do anything for the rest of the site. Maybe you guys could hold a logo contest, cuz this is craptastic.

I've been a constant reader for years, but this has got to be the worst facelift I've seen.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Ad-crazy and ugly new logo
by Roguelazer on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 00:42 UTC in reply to "Ad-crazy and ugly new logo"
Roguelazer Member since:
2005-06-29

I wouldn't go quite so far as you have, but I agree about the logo. The current logo has an... elegant simplicity to it that the new one lacks.

Reply Score: 2

Na..
by CVDpr on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 00:42 UTC
CVDpr
Member since:
2005-10-17

The actual theme is the best!!!

Reply Score: 1

I miss the clean layout
by CrazyDude0 on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 00:54 UTC
CrazyDude0
Member since:
2005-07-10

I miss the clean layout of OSNews v3. There are no boxes or borders. There are no clearly delineated areas. It is like you are reading news written in the air.

Reply Score: 5

RE: I miss the clean layout
by korpenkraxar on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 12:48 UTC in reply to "I miss the clean layout"
korpenkraxar Member since:
2005-09-10

Agree

Reply Score: 1

Erratic flow and haphazard layout
by gtada on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 00:59 UTC
gtada
Member since:
2005-10-12

A few more things. I appreciate the hard work, but I think it's time to really step back and look at your work critically. Is it actually accomplishing anything better than the old version? Are things different just for the sake of being different?

I think the thing that really throws off this new layout is the disgusting use of spacing (or lack thereof). The story titles really crowd the bylines and the summaries. This is where the old layout excelled: everything is compartmentalized, making it easier to read. This one is just chaotic and not reader-friendly. Very erratic flow.

I'm looking at this on Firefox, and it just looks sloppy (looking at the classic theme). The left bar doesn't quite line up with the top links bar, the margin between the two is the same width as the links bar, etc. Were these intentional? It looks like the margins and layouts of all of the themes were done haphazardly.

Reply Score: 5

Southern.Pride Member since:
2006-09-14

I totally agree running FireFox FC6 the display looks terrible.

Reply Score: 2

it looks great!
by jaykayess on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 01:12 UTC
jaykayess
Member since:
2005-09-28

but you should add a little whitespace in between articles; the main column feels a bit cramped.

Reply Score: 1

Not bad.
by nicarley on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 02:12 UTC
nicarley
Member since:
2005-07-12

The logo could use a little work. Otherwise, I switched the theme to "classic" and all seems as good as before look and feel wise. The new features are definitely an evolution keeping them inline with some of their competitors. Just my two cents.

Good job, keep up the good work!

Reply Score: 1

On Messing with a Good Thing
by jdrake on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 02:26 UTC
jdrake
Member since:
2005-07-07

I am especially fond of the current system, and I dislike changes in interface. It is similar to when you get a good thing going, and then they want to change it on you. I almost feel like what an older person might say about changing something they have always been used to.

This is similar. V4 is definitely 'disruptive', and in its current state i definitely do not like the looks of it - it just *feels* wrong.

Reply Score: 5

The evil plan seen!
by Almafeta on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 03:31 UTC
Almafeta
Member since:
2007-02-22

The most functional and attractive themes (non-fixed-width) seem to be the ones that require subscription...

So that's your game. ;)

Reply Score: 4

RE: The evil plan seen!
by bornagainenguin on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 06:13 UTC in reply to "The evil plan seen!"
bornagainenguin Member since:
2005-08-07

Agreed.

If this trend continues I'll go elsewhere. The main reason I've always liked OSnews was because it was always the cleanest and most readable news site out there--these changes seem to require we all pay for the privilege of being able to read without eyestrain.

I've left other communities for money grabs like this, so it wouldn't be the first time, but I sincerely hope it doesn't come to that...

--bornagainpenguin

Reply Score: 2

Major flaw noticed!
by Almafeta on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 03:37 UTC
Almafeta
Member since:
2007-02-22

There's a big problem with the layout that I can see: There's no link to 'OS Resources!'

Personally, as a student studying operating system design and would-be hobbyist (and hopefully professional) OS designer, I use that page two or three times per week.

I really hope that that page is retained...

Edited 2007-04-03 03:38

Reply Score: 1

RE: Major flaw noticed!
by Eugenia on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 04:29 UTC in reply to "Major flaw noticed!"
Eugenia Member since:
2005-06-28

The link to the OS resources can be found in the Contact page. It is like that right now too for the subscriber's version. Besides, that Resources page has not been updated in years.

Reply Score: 1

The old one works great.
by Southern.Pride on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 03:46 UTC
Southern.Pride
Member since:
2006-09-14

I wish they would have an option for the original I cannot stand the new one....

Reply Score: 3

OSNews Releases version 4, take 2
by openwookie on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 04:18 UTC
openwookie
Member since:
2006-04-25

More Ads. Ignore list limited to members only. Lame.

Reply Score: 2

Eugenia Member since:
2005-06-28

There are no more ads, it's about the same amount.

Reply Score: 1

openwookie Member since:
2006-04-25

Ok, at the very least the new layout draws my eyes to them more.

Good for your advertisers, less good for me. Perhaps my eyes just need to adjust.

The avatar feature is fun.

Edited 2007-04-03 04:35

Reply Score: 1

The worst thing of all
by openwookie on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 04:24 UTC
openwookie
Member since:
2006-04-25

Bookmarked links are broken.

Example. Here is a permalinked url for a comment on the old site:

http://www.osnews.com/permalink.php?news_id=17609&comment_id=226808

So it should work the same on the new site:

http://www4.osnews.com/permalink.php?news_id=17609&comment_id=22680...

Whoops.

Reply Score: 1

RE: The worst thing of all
by Adam S on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 11:26 UTC in reply to "The worst thing of all"
Adam S Member since:
2005-04-01

*All* links will be properly redirected for v4.

Reply Score: 1

Text Entry
by ma_d on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 04:48 UTC
ma_d
Member since:
2005-06-29

Since the current version requires a pretty wide window to show the text and sidebar next to each other why don't you guys widen the comment entry box? It's a small thing, but I think 5-10 more columns would make a nice difference in the feel of comment editing.

Reply Score: 3

did you guys hire a designer?
by prickett on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 04:52 UTC
prickett
Member since:
2007-04-03

I am all for osnews improving there site visually however this v4 design looks like a programmer pulled out there photoshop paint brushes and hacked up a terrible interface.

- The osnews logo is a complete joke.
- The use of gradients is an unthought of contribution.
- More negative space is needed between the articles to separate them for easier/quicker reading.

I strongly advise you to send the design to /dev/null and hire a real designer to do the job, perhaps you can get some inspiration about whats good from a site like this; http://cssmania.com

On the matter of the improved functionality I have no gripes there.

I also regularly read the articles from my mobile phone (640x480 res), I notice that the new interface is not available on that yet, I surely hope that doesn't get stuffed up!

Reply Score: 5

I like the old logo
by gangsta on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 05:06 UTC
gangsta
Member since:
2005-07-10

I like the old logo better. Other than that, the new site looks good.

Reply Score: 4

Caching issues
by openwookie on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 05:11 UTC
openwookie
Member since:
2006-04-25

Oops, saw the message on the home page.

Edited 2007-04-03 05:13 UTC

Reply Score: 1

Classic Theme ...
by locohijo on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 06:17 UTC
locohijo
Member since:
2006-01-03

plus set the font text size to about 10 pt ... FTW!!

Seriously, the 'blocked' style makes things more clearer, and closer in terms to functionality with the V3 look.

Reply Score: 1

Where is the average post score
by mariux on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 06:25 UTC
mariux
Member since:
2005-11-13

What is the reason you have decided to drop the "average post score" that is shown behind the users username in the classic osnews? It's a good way to filter out the trolls.

Reply Score: 2

Adam S Member since:
2005-04-01

What is the reason you have decided to drop the "average post score" that is shown behind the users username in the classic osnews?


Because its a worthless number. The date someone signed up is better, I think, since it actually indicates something - like how long they've been contributing. The average score is 5 if you have one post of 5, which doesn't mean you're a better commenter than someone whose average score is actually 2.5, which is really high for someone who comments regularly.

The more someone posts the more likely they are to even out their score back to 1, which is misleading, because a troll with a few high comments might appear to be a really good commenter.

Reply Score: 1

ormandj Member since:
2005-10-09

There's a few ways to handle this, the easiest being simply not displaying a score for a new member (less than 50 posts or something like this.) Display score for people over the threshold. Scores are very useful, now I'm clicking on user names to get info on users.

Another option would be displaying "score/postcount". This starts to get cluttered, however.

Third option, create an algorithm to balance score against post count.

Or, if you are dead set on not displaying score, still keep it internally, and users who break the 2.00 barrier and have more than X number of posts (100 or whatever you want) have their names change blue to signify they are (generally) "good" posters by popular opinion.

Now, imagine if all the people who can't read would stop modding people down because they disagree with their opinions, we'd be all set! :p You should add an IQ check to the new v4. ;)

Reply Score: 2

Adam S Member since:
2005-04-01

There's a few ways to handle this


Let me think on this. Maybe we can cook something efficient up that will satisfy.

Reply Score: 1

ormandj Member since:
2005-10-09

Sounds good! If you get stuck/need some ideas, I'm always happy to help.

On a side note, log out of your account, then click "reply" to this comment. It'll bring you to a login screen. Even if you type in the correct info, it once again brings you to a different login screen. Then, when you type in the correct info, it doesn't redirect you back to the "reply" page like it (logically) should.

Reply Score: 2

V3 Theme
by pandronic on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 06:30 UTC
pandronic
Member since:
2006-05-18

Please make the default theme look the same as the current site. The padding is wrong, the borders are wrong, (+) / (-) button placement is wrong, highly modded comments are not blue or bold, and I could go on.

Also - the biggest annoyance that it's not theme related is that when I post a comment I'm taken to a new page. What's up with that?

Otherwise, great work on the new features.

Reply Score: 3

Not good.
by jrlah on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 06:32 UTC
jrlah
Member since:
2005-08-09

Much more visually cacophonic and difficult to navigate than the "old" version. Less is more, guys, remember that.

Reply Score: 2

Avatars, ugh
by Soulbender on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 06:33 UTC
Soulbender
Member since:
2005-08-18

What's next? Picture sigs so people can have gigantic, ugly and dumb pictures about nonsense no one cares about taking up all the post space?

Edited 2007-04-03 06:34

Reply Score: 3

RE: Avatars, ugh
by Thom_Holwerda on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 09:02 UTC in reply to "Avatars, ugh"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

What's next? Picture sigs so people can have gigantic, ugly and dumb pictures about nonsense no one cares about taking up all the post space?


Did you even read the article? You can turn avatars OFF.

Reply Score: 1

Agree with people
by Buck on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 06:40 UTC
Buck
Member since:
2005-06-29

Let me chime in too - almost nothing has changed and it's really better to send the current design to /dev/null. Using OSNews green for the sake of being green? It just doesn't work. What's with the spacing? It feels like I'm opening a tiny webpage in a browser maximized to a 1920x1440 resolution. It's not clean, not concise, and the color shade gamut is very wide despite the site being almost monochromatic - what's with all these 10934 shades of gray with light-blue stars piled on top? Hurts my eyes.
And once again there's that stranded 'Older posts' weirdness at the very bottom.
Seriously guys, hire a *good* designer if you intend to have subscription I'd expect to have a good-looking site, and let programmers do their programming job.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Agree with people
by Thom_Holwerda on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 09:09 UTC in reply to "Agree with people"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

And once again there's that stranded 'Older posts' weirdness at the very bottom.


What?

Reply Score: 1

Threaded view
by Soulbender on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 07:14 UTC
Soulbender
Member since:
2005-08-18

FTW. Seriously, that's all I really miss in the current version.

Edited 2007-04-03 07:14

Reply Score: 2

v Yuk, yuk, yuk
by hhcv on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 08:01 UTC
Let's fork()?
by hhcv on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 08:04 UTC
hhcv
Member since:
2005-11-12

The new design/structure is really, really, bad. I would be interested to know if this is change for change's sake. Did people complain about the current site?

I say, GPL the site, and we'll get a group of people to fork() it alla XMMS and a multitude of other projects out there.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Let's fork()?
by Thom_Holwerda on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 09:06 UTC in reply to "Let's fork()?"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

The new design/structure is really, really, bad.


Why? What? How? It's easy to say :this sucks" but can you also, like, explain why?

I say, GPL the site, and we'll get a group of people to fork() it alla XMMS and a multitude of other projects out there.


And then what? You'd have to write your own content, and trust me, I don't think you'll find and awful lot of people willing to spend several hours a day day in day out working on something without getting paid.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Let's fork()?
by hhcv on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 12:16 UTC in reply to "RE: Let's fork()?"
hhcv Member since:
2005-11-12

Hi Thom,

I do apologize for the tounge-and-cheek. Honestly, I love the work you do with this site. Check your logs and you'll see that I am on here at least a dozen times a day.

The editing team does a fantastic job with reviews and continuously fresh news, all packaged in an excellent layout/design/structure.

I just don't think the new site does all of this work/history justice. I may have been a shock-jock above, but believe me, I appreciate the community you have built up here.

Reply Score: 2

Advertising in the comments section???
by blixel on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 08:13 UTC
blixel
Member since:
2005-07-06

Unless the user gets a cut of the google adsense revenue you're generating by placing ads between comments, then I think they should go.

The new design is beyond awful. Did OSNews hire a porn site developer to create the new site?

OHHH!!! Holy crap! I bet this is a late April Fools joke! NOW I get it. Hahahaha... good one guys. You had me scared there for a minute.

Reply Score: 4

Cap mode
by Thom_Holwerda on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 08:57 UTC
Thom_Holwerda
Member since:
2005-06-29

I'm going in to cap mode right now, but else I think people will simply not hear what I'm saying:

THE LOGO IS PLACEHOLDER MATERIAL. THIS HAS ONLY BEEN SAID ABOUT 985634563495634670966 TIMES, SO YOU CAN BE EXCUSED FOR NOT KNOWING ABOUT IT.

There.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Cap mode
by prickett on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 09:18 UTC in reply to "Cap mode"
prickett Member since:
2007-04-03

I am surprised to here this because it makes things worse than they current are.

If you think that it is acceptable to take the symbol of the osnews brand and substitute it with an image that looks like shit, you are in fact saying that your brand is nothing more than shit also. Now I am sure thats not the case but if your running a popular and credible site like osnews, you have to act in a business manner because your actions will be criticize heavily when mistakes are made.

It is within your best interests to consult someone who is knowledgeable about design and marketing because clearly you have not done this due to the type of mistakes your making here.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Cap mode
by Thom_Holwerda on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 09:35 UTC in reply to "RE: Cap mode"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

The logo is a placeholder! It is not definitive! It's just put there to fill the void! What is so hard to understand about that!

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Cap mode
by kramii on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 14:50 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Cap mode"
kramii Member since:
2005-07-22

Perhaps it would be better to substitute the current logo as a placeholder for the time being, to make everyone happy?

Reply Score: 1

I like the old look more than the new
by danwarne on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 09:25 UTC
danwarne
Member since:
2005-09-04

Personally I like the way it looks now... especially because everything is boxed out and clearly deliniated. In the new site, the lack of deliniation between news stories makes it harder to read, IMHO.

Reply Score: 2

Oh and...
by danwarne on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 09:26 UTC
danwarne
Member since:
2005-09-04

I definitely agree that the current logo is better than the new one. The current one has geek chic to it... the new one is just a bit too "hotrod" for a significant site like this.

Reply Score: 2

default theme
by h-milch-mann on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 09:42 UTC
h-milch-mann
Member since:
2005-10-27

As I already commented on beta1: There is a problem with firefox/epiphany when you use an inverted gtk theme. The background uses the color of the theme and is therefore unreadable. I testet this with firefox and a fresh profile.
http://img292.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshotij8.png

Reply Score: 2

RE: default theme
by Adam S on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 11:32 UTC in reply to "default theme"
Adam S Member since:
2005-04-01

As far as I'm concerned, that's not an OSNews bug. I cannot reproduce it on any other browser - including FF on Linux. The page has a background of #fff - I don't know what to tell you. Complain to the GTK people I guess for overriding our style.

Reply Score: 1

My Humble Impression
by Gryzor on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 09:48 UTC
Gryzor
Member since:
2005-07-03

After playing with OS News v4 a little this morning, I have mixed opinions.
There's tons of new stuff hanging around the new site, however, the current theme, although good looking (this is subjective), is -imo- harder to read and follow.

When you read the comments, you have to read "more" and the screen looks "overloaded".

Perhaps if we had a "trial" (7 days?) of the subscriptions to see how will it look (perhaps without the ads it looks better). I read mostly through RSS and only read the topics I am interested, but when I do, I have found v4 to be "harder" to read.

Maybe it's just me being more tired and getting sick :o

Anyways, the site is great. Nice tag tho: "NOT JUST Operating System news" ;)

Reply Score: 1

All constructive feedback is welcome.
by sbergman27 on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 10:15 UTC
sbergman27
Member since:
2005-07-24

From the article by Adam Scheinberg:

"""
All constructive feedback is welcome.
"""


From Thom Holwerda:

"""
THE LOGO IS PLACEHOLDER MATERIAL. THIS HAS ONLY BEEN SAID ABOUT 985634563495634670966 TIMES, SO YOU CAN BE EXCUSED FOR NOT KNOWING ABOUT IT.
"""

"""
Did you even read the article? You can turn avatars OFF.
"""

"""
Why? What? How? It's easy to say :this sucks" but can you also, like, explain why?
"""

"""
And then what? You'd have to write your own content, and trust me, I don't think you'll find and awful lot of people willing to spend several hours a day day in day out working on something without getting paid.
"""

"""
What?"""
"""

"""
The logo is a placeholder! It is not definitive! It's just put there to fill the void! What is so hard to understand about that!
"""


Hmmm. There seems to be a bit of a gulf between Adam's open and collaborative attitude, and Thom's confrontational and defensive one.

If people feel that the new site really sucks compared to the current one, and say so, that is constructive criticism and should be treated as such.

Sometimes a boring, but serviceable, sow's ear is preferable to a fancy-dancy silk purse.

Please take that as a compliment on the current site rather than a rag on the new one.

With ad filtering (I really can't leave that out) the current site has a simplicity and elegance that cannot be denied.

Let's focus on content and readability, and not "Themes" and easy, automated, ways to ignore other people's comments.

Reply Score: 5

Adam S Member since:
2005-04-01

No, Thom's comments are spot on. Most of the negative posts are filled with nothing but rambling, bitching, and threats to leave without ANY real gripes we can fix. No "I like the old site" is NOT constructive.

Furthermore, if I say "ad placement is not final and logos are placeholders," why must we deal with 10 posts about logos and ads??

Thom's frustration is with the fact that we wrote about this stuff and some people just ignored it, but it certainly didn't stop them from commenting.

Reply Score: 1

Buck Member since:
2005-06-29

bitching, and threats to leave without ANY real gripes we can fix

If 90 out of 120 housewives say it's ugly, then it's ugly and back to the drawing board you should go. There were plenty of reasons outlined already.

Reply Score: 4

Adam S Member since:
2005-04-01

If 90 out of 120 housewives say it's ugly, then it's ugly and back to the drawing board you should go.


Screw that.

If you can't tell me what you don't like, I'm not going back to do a redesign just to hear more of the same vague crap. Outline what you want to see or use one of the themes that exist. Those are the options.

Reply Score: 1

blixel Member since:
2005-07-06

"If you can't tell me what you don't like.."

Are you ******* kidding me? Can you read???

------

"The new site is looking too much like a generic web 2.0 community site"

http://www.osnews.com/permalink.php?news_id=17609&comment_id=226727

"YOU NEED TO PADD THE NEWS BLOCKS OUT.

Seriously, the news listings just look like a glump of text with an icon on it, which makes my eyes bleed."

http://www.osnews.com/permalink.php?news_id=17609&comment_id=226744

"I agree. I don't want my browser using my entire screen. It's very annoying having to resize my browser just to visit OS News."

http://www.osnews.com/permalink.php?news_id=17609&comment_id=226873

"I realize that ads keep costs down, but wow does this new version go overboard!!! Ads between comments?!!"

http://www.osnews.com/permalink.php?news_id=17609&comment_id=226758

"I miss the clean layout of OSNews v3. There are no boxes or borders. There are no clearly delineated areas. It is like you are reading news written in the air."

http://www.osnews.com/permalink.php?news_id=17609&comment_id=226765

"...you should add a little whitespace in between articles; the main column feels a bit cramped."

http://www.osnews.com/permalink.php?news_id=17609&comment_id=226772

How many more do you need?

Reply Score: 5

Adam S Member since:
2005-04-01

How many more do you need?


A lot. This isn't a democracy. I don't just blindly carry out every reader's wish just because they demanded it.

"The new site is looking too much like a generic web 2.0 community site"


That's real useful. Let me just make it less web 2.0 community-ish by... uh... removing the gradient? Wait no... taking out the Ajax? Or maybe by reducing javascript? Does this comment make any f'ing sense? What the hell does it even mean?

"YOU NEED TO PADD THE NEWS BLOCKS OUT.


Fine. I hear you, despite your annyiong and obnoxious caps.

which makes my eyes bleed.


This is why we get pissed off. Nice quip. I can't wait to go write code to please you.

"I agree. I don't want my browser using my entire screen. It's very annoying having to resize my browser just to visit OS News."


Tough. It's 2007 and the default theme requires 1024 pixels.

"I realize that ads keep costs down, but wow does this new version go overboard!!! Ads between comments?!!"


If anyone can't read, it's the people who commented on ad placements despite my warning that ad placement was not final and was being tested so there were more ads than would be in the final version.

"I miss the clean layout of OSNews v3. There are no boxes or borders.


But there are. It's not my fault you're ignoring them.

"...you should add a little whitespace in between articles; the main column feels a bit cramped."


Finally, a well written comment, and I said above, we'll look into that.

I'm referring to the comments that say things like "it's fugly." As far as I'm concerned, anyone who vocalizes their feelings like that isn't likely to be pleased by ANY change at all.

We're not updating v3. You would be hard pressed to find a site with our traffic where editors will play this much of a role or better yet, allow the community to play this much of a role. Legitimate thoughts are *always* entertained here. Sarcastic and obnoxious nonsense is ignored.

Reply Score: 0

Wyzard Member since:
2007-04-03

"I agree. I don't want my browser using my entire screen. It's very annoying having to resize my browser just to visit OS News."

Tough shit. It's 2007 and the default theme requires 1024 pixels.

------------------------------------------------------

I respectfully disagree with this comment. HTML was initially designed to be flowing and not statically laid out; this allows different agents to display the page correctly regardless of their resolution.

You should also consider people who do not (or can not) use 1024x768 resolution. People with poor eyesight often have to use a lower resolution in order to read their screen. Accessibility should always be a consideration during web-design. You could keep the menu a fixed width (floated right or left, depending on the theme) and let the stories fill in the rest of the page (using padding to keep the story from overwriting the menu).

I do like the new design (except for the layout issue), but I'd like to make two requests. Could you please keep the "box layout" from the old design? What I mean is that I really like how easy it is to read the story links when they are separated in their own box like in the old design. I realize that you are using the box method in the new design, at least by background color. What I'm asking is to keep the old-style box design (bordered and separated) as this is easier to read. Or alternatively, drop the different background colors and separate the stories using a padded line. The new design needs something to break the stories up and make them stand out from each other.

Also, would you please consider keeping the existing old version color schemes available to non-subscribers in the new design? I really like the Orange Platinum style in the old layout and I'd like to be able to continue to use it in the new design. I understand if you are removing these for financial reasons (to get more subscribers), but I really dislike "upgrades" that takes away functionality or options that we've already had.

Thank you for your time and effort!

Edited 2007-04-03 13:53

Reply Score: 2

kramii Member since:
2005-07-22

Tough shit...


I am disappointed that the people who run this site feel it necessary to use language like this when replying to someone's heartfelt concerns. "I am sorry, but..." would be much more professional and infinitely more gracious.

This isn't a democracy...


Actually, it is: many of your user will vote with your feet if you don't listen to them.

People make negative comments about the new theme because they *care*, not because they disrespect the hard work you guys put into the site. Other people do not always express themselves well, nor are they always helpful, but *please*, accept criticism in the spirit in which it is intended.

We are guests on your site, you are guests on our screens. Perhaps we can treat each other with respect?

Reply Score: 3

Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

"Actually, it is: many of your user will vote with your feet if you don't listen to them."

No, Adam is right. It's not a democracy. He can do whatever the hell he want with the design and he has no obligation to even ask anyone for permission (other than the owners). Sure, that's rude, not very smart and would probably alienate most readers but that's his right.

Reply Score: 2

sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

"""
many of your user will vote with your feet if you don't listen to them.
"""

As far as I can see, the main thing keeping readers at OSNews is the fact that it has no real competition. The staff can be rude to their readers and treat them badly because the readers have no place else to go.

Or is there another site similar to OSNews of which I am unaware?

There are plenty of Linux oriented news sites out there. But I migrated to OSNews because I enjoy the diversity of viewpoints among the readership. On a Linux oriented site, you can get away with saying all sorts of crap and everyone just nods and agrees.

But here, if I say "Linux is the best OS that the world has ever seen!" I can count upon getting some very honest feedback from people who might... err... disagree strongly with that statement.

Mainstream sites tend to be quite Windows-centric, and I don't care for being in that position: A minority member. I get enough of that in "real life".

At OSNews, I feel that we, the readership, do a pretty good job of treating each other as equals... even though we may disagree on particulars.

I would love to find another site that had all that, but where the proprietors weren't so arrogant, and didn't act like they were so burned out with running it.

And that is really what I am hearing in their virtual voices these days.

Reply Score: 2

sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

Adam said:

"""A lot. This isn't a democracy. I don't just blindly carry out every reader's wish just because they demanded it."""

"""That's real useful. Let me just make it less web 2.0 community-ish by... uh... removing the gradient? Wait no... taking out the Ajax? Or maybe by reducing javascript? Does this comment make any f'ing sense? What the hell does it even mean?"""

"""Fine. I hear you, despite your annyiong and obnoxious caps."""

"""This is why we get pissed off. Nice quip. I can't wait to go write code to please you."""

"""Tough. It's 2007 and the default theme requires 1024 pixels."""

"""If anyone can't read, it's the people who commented on ad placements despite my warning that ad placement was not final and was being tested so there were more ads than would be in the final version."""

"""But there are. It's not my fault you're ignoring them."""

"""Finally, a well written comment, and I said above, we'll look into that."""


"""We're not updating v3. You would be hard pressed to find a site with our traffic where editors will play this much of a role or better yet, allow the community to play this much of a role."""

--


OK. I take back what I said in my original post about Adam's "open and collaborative" style.

It seems that most of the OSNews staff has a nasty attitude problem regarding their readers.

I find myself becoming more concerned about that than I am with colors and page layout.

Edited 2007-04-03 15:48

Reply Score: 1

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

OK. I take back what I said in my original post about Adam's "open and collaborative" style.

It seems that most of the OSNews staff has a nasty attitude problem.


Okay, say you had to write a big paper for university. You spent a lot of time researching, writing, and editing. You show the first draft to your teacher, and all he says is "it's crap", and points you to the door.

Would you not be pissed off?

Look, long ago we decided to be very open about changes to OSNews, so that everyone can have their say. No other websites similar to OSN has ever been this open about a complete redesign.

You somehow seem to think that we are here to serve you, that you are one of our customers, and can place demands as if a customer. But you're not. We are a volunteer effort, we do this whole website in our spare time. We are open about our policies, we have very loose editorial moderation, we allow for a lot of 'off-topic-ness', we allow readers to vent their thoughts about a redesign, and so on, but yet you STILL accuse us of being closed and unwilling to collaborate?

I'm sorry, but much more open and collaborative we cannot be.

Reply Score: 1

Adam S Member since:
2005-04-01

It seems that most of the OSNews staff has a nasty attitude problem regarding their readers.

I find myself becoming more concerned about that than I am with colors and page layout.


You're right. I have lost my cool here and I'm wrong, no doubt about it. It's just so damned frustrating that people continue to bring up the issues I actually addressed right in this very article.

The double standard is that readers have posted nasty and rude comments, and the staff - who work for free to bring readers to site - are consistently reprimanded for not caving to every demand. It's frustrating and clearly unwinnable. There is simply no way to make everyone happy.

This is my last comment on this thread. I've got the useful feedback I needed. I think this thread is now dead.

Reply Score: 1

sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

"""
Tough. It's 2007 and the default theme requires 1024 pixels.
"""

Here is some feedback that I hope you will find constructive. You only mention a horizontal resolution, so I'm not sure exactly how this applies to the current situation.

But I just happened to be reading lwn.net and came across this post:

http://lwn.net/Articles/228934/

which indicates that the most common browser window size that the author found in his testing was "1000 pixels wide by about 550 pixels high".

Edit: Also note the first response to the post. We're none of us getting any younger! ;-)

Edited 2007-04-03 16:49

Reply Score: 2

korpenkraxar Member since:
2005-09-10

I agree to those points

Reply Score: 1

blixel Member since:
2005-07-06

"Most of the negative posts are filled with nothing but rambling, bitching"

OK - fair enough.

But if you throw out the 4 or 5 positive posts that are filled with nothing more than rambling, blind praise (verses the 100+ posts of "rambling, bitching") ... then what are you left with?

Reply Score: 2

StephenBeDoper Member since:
2005-07-06

If people feel that the new site really sucks compared to the current one, and say so, that is constructive criticism and should be treated as such.


That's "I don't know art - but I know what I don't like" criticism. The vast majority of the critical comments I've seen here are quite vague (not to mention rather rude/ignorant) - and of the few that do include specifics, even fewer include any constructive suggestions.

Perhaps there are exceptions that prove the rule, but I've never encountered a constructive criticism that included the word "sucks." The responses of Thom's that you quoted are pretty mild, IMHO - and certainly less childishly-insulting than most of the posts he's replying to.

Reply Score: 2

dejf Member since:
2007-04-03

If people feel that the new site really sucks compared to the current one, and say so, that is constructive criticism and should be treated as such.

That's "I don't know art - but I know what I don't like" criticism.


No, that's the I know what I like criticism. Many people here simply like the current setup and they're saying so.

Reply Score: 1

StephenBeDoper Member since:
2005-07-06

No, that's the I know what I like criticism.


Uh, there's a difference?

Many people here simply like the current setup and they're saying so.


But the vast majority don't include any useful specifics of what they feel to be the disparity between the V3 and V4 designs.

Hell, I have my own criticisms of the V4 design. But I'm not going to whine about it unless I have a an actual specific suggestion for making improvements (and, ideally - a link to a mockup of what I think would be an improvement). And I'm certainly not going to phrase my criticisms as immaturely as most of the ones posted in this thread.

Most of the criticism of the redesign I"ve read is along the lines of "Well, I known next to nothing about web design - but I read a lot of websites, so I must be qualified to comment. And hey, egalitarianism tells me that my opinion is as good as that of anyone else - so you better listen to me!"

The thing that many people apparently *never* learn is that their opinions are worth less-than-nothing if they can't provide proper support for them.

Reply Score: 2

Sorry for being a bitch but...
by pureza on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 11:39 UTC
pureza
Member since:
2005-07-06

As a long time READER of the news in this site (that pretty much ignores comments), I don't like the new look.

Too much colors, too much clutter, too much things that distract me from the thing that brings me here: the news.

For now, I'll remain with the old look.

Reply Score: 2

beta
by cutterjohn on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 11:53 UTC
cutterjohn
Member since:
2006-01-28

it's fugly...

Reply Score: 0

I Love v3
by asupcb on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 13:49 UTC
asupcb
Member since:
2005-11-10

I love the layout of version 3 of the site and I hope that you keep the layout of v4 as close to the layout of v3 as possible.
I also like the blue comments of the old v3.
I know the logo you are using is a placeholder I just want to say that the current v3 logo is awesome and I don't think you need a new one.
I would like a little more space on the right side of the screen by the articles and the comments, personally. I like having more empty space than is currently given on the right side of the screen.
The default theme needs some kind of boxes around them to give each news article more separation from each other, like v3 does:)
It's your site and you can do with it as you like but I do truly love the layout of v3 and I just can't imagine it getting much better than that although I look forward to being proved wrong. Good luck with new site layout.

Reply Score: 1

Adds display
by Ikshaar on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 14:00 UTC
Ikshaar
Member since:
2005-07-14

Well, the thing that still make the display a bit messy for me is that the space reserved for the adds in between story seems to be fixed height and therefore depending on font, they are cut. And when cut in middle of a line, it makes it look unprofessional.

As it depends on add text, it does not happen all the time.

Reply Score: 1

please keep the current theme
by dfwlinuxguy on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 14:04 UTC
dfwlinuxguy
Member since:
2007-03-23

I come to check the news on this site at least a few times a day. I love the current format of the site. I strongly dislike the new version 4. Ok I hate it. I'm no artist, but I know what I like when I see it. If you want specifics, I do know for sure that I hate the new logo. I hate that so much of the top of the page is taken up with it.

Thom says -
THE LOGO IS PLACEHOLDER MATERIAL.
but I don't know how I could know that if I hadn't read that comment. Hopefully that means they are going to dump that big waste of space at the top of the page.

The box on the left on the classic view is WAY too wide/huge. Luckily if you shrink your browser window, it throws it under all the stories. I would prefer for that box to be on the right side under classic view.

I have always had a lot of respect for the people who have created this great site. I now have a little less respect for Adam and Thom because of the comments I have seen them post under this thread. I don't know what their responsibilities are in relation to this website, but you shouldn't be airing your dirty laundry (frustrations) in public. You're obviously frustrated that we aren't taking well to the new design. I'm sorry. Maybe you should step back and take a break. Give yourself some time to relax and re-evaluate the situation. It might help.

Reply Score: 1

RE: please keep the current theme
by Adam S on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 14:37 UTC in reply to "please keep the current theme"
Adam S Member since:
2005-04-01

You're obviously frustrated that we aren't taking well to the new design. I'm sorry. Maybe you should step back and take a break.


You're right, we are frustrated. but it's not because "people aren't taking well to the new design." We're frustrated because we're repeating the same things over and over and over. The images are placeholders. The ad placement is not final. The themes have been tweaked over and over based on feedback. That's eating up the entire thread here. Rehashing the same things.

Maybe good, smart people we value lose some respect for us when we participate, but that's the price we pay for being transparent. Virtually no other website like this in this category invites people to play such a role in the design and testing of the site. Let me tell you how much is SUCKS when you build a new website, invite everyone to test the new features, and 25 people leave comments like "I hate it, the new site looks like a baby threw up on the screen. I'm going to leave your site if you keep this theme." Do you know how much restraint it takes not to say "HEY F*** YOU!" Are people not capable of tact anymore? Can they not express themselves without being complete assholes? Are we incapable of a real conversation? The attitude that some people sport makes me sick and makes me question why we donate time to this site at all.

So, yeah, you're seeing our frustrations, sure ... we're only human. But you - the user - get to shape the site and have your feedback heard, and I think that ought to count for something.

I don't know what their responsibilities are in relation to this website, but you shouldn't be airing your dirty laundry (frustrations) in public.


I don't see why not. We're not a company, we're some people running a website that is worthwhile because of our users. I don't see why having a real, honest discussion is a bad thing, even if we get worked up. We certainly wouldn't be the first ones to get emotional in the forums.

Edited 2007-04-03 14:39 UTC

Reply Score: 1

dfwlinuxguy Member since:
2007-03-23

Adam says:
but that's the price we pay for being transparent.

Maybe that's not always a good thing. You're actually willing to go to war with the very fans of this site that actually care so deeply about what you are doing as to get involved? The very people who would probably be most likely to buy a subscription to your site?

Adam says:
Do you know how much restraint it takes not to say "HEY F*** YOU!"

For my kids I know how difficult it is to show restraint. But we're all adults here right? Most of life is about showing restraint. You don't just go around yelling and cussing everyone you don't agree with do you? If so you have no right to complain about the way others are behaving. I know society has gone to the point where cursing seems common place, but to me it still seems to be the trait of childish and immature people. It's certainly something I try to avoid especially in professional situations.

I appreciate that your only human. I appreciate whatever contributions you make, even more so if you volunteer your time to this site. If no one else has told you today - THANK YOU!

Reply Score: 1

Adam S Member since:
2005-04-01

I appreciate you saying so, but the world isn't always idealist and we're all adult enough, I think, to realize that the online world does not function like the real world. Of course you teach your kids to show some restraint. But until the internet behaves in a civilized way, like we do in real life, I think it's a bit naive to expect that courtesy will win over emotional tirades on a website.

For my 2 cents, nobody here has "gone to war." These are the politics of an online community. This is the way online forums work: everything is hyper-exaggerated because there is no context and no tone.

Maybe we ought not involve the community: maybe it would be better to say "here's v4, use it or leave." Personally, I think a little bickering in the meanwhile is a fair trade off.

I guess what remains to be seen is whether people actually leave the site when the changes are rolled out, or whether they adapt to change. I guess we'll see soon.

Reply Score: 1

openwookie Member since:
2006-04-25

Adam: You drop an incomplete design on us and post a front page story asking people to test it. What the hell did you expect?

This is a free, public site. Of course people are going to be critical. It's the internet, they can be as jackassish as they want. Don't expect users to read warnings about unfinished logos and caching issues and such. They won't.

So swallow you're pride, and try to listen to your user base. If you've had enough comments then *take this incomplete & flawed beta (alpha?) site down* until you have something better.

Reply Score: 2

Another silly bug
by Almafeta on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 14:47 UTC
Almafeta
Member since:
2007-02-22

Here's another bug I found in the new OS News layout.

When attemting to change my account picture, my first upload failed. The error message (oh, I should have taken a screenshot) stated something along the lines of "Illegal file type: JPEGs." That was immediately after being told that the picture had to be one of GIF, JPEG, or PNG.

Although I managed to get around it by saving my avatar as a PNG, being told JPGs are not suitable after being explicitly told that JPGs are one of the three types permissable is confusing. Hopefully, it was a one-time bug.

(Shouldn't account pictures be a subscriber-only feature, anyways? I mean, it increases the bandwidth of the page and uses up space on your server, and multiply 512k avatars by the 10,000-odd members here...)

Reply Score: 1

Incorrect alignments and width
by Savior on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 14:53 UTC
Savior
Member since:
2006-09-02

Firefox, classic theme: the comment boxes are wider than the article itself. It looks stupid; the article is (usually) more interesting than the comments. Sorry everyone ;)

Also, my screen is 1024x768, and the right edge of the comment boxes touch the scrollbar. Not nice.

I miss the colors of v3: everything is black. I think it makes sense to use different colors for the title of the comment, the name of the user who wrote it, the score he gave, etc. All in all, the v3 LaF is way better than classic right now; I think it should be followed more closely.

Edited 2007-04-03 14:55

Reply Score: 1

Web 2.0 killed the HTML-Star ...
by inetman on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 15:05 UTC
inetman
Member since:
2006-05-30

...

I'm a big fan of osnews, not at least because it fast and lightwight. I somehow like the new desgin, but it's slow, buggy and the comment system sucks ;-)

Don't use the whole screen, centering the news and comments makes it easier to surf ;-)

Anyway: Nice work, great site!

Reply Score: 1

dfwlinuxguy Member since:
2007-03-23

1. Centering the content works better for me as well.

2. Navigational bar in classic mode is ugly. (Sorry I don't know how else to say it. I don't like the plain black?)

3. Box on the left in classic too wide.

4. Would prefer and option to put the box on the right side for classic.

Edited 2007-04-03 16:10

Reply Score: 1

jayson.knight
Member since:
2005-07-06

All of the time. And it looks like all those people read OSNews.

I've yet to not get used to a site after they do a redesign. After the initial shock and awe wears off, it becomes a normal part of my surfing routine.

It's ridiculous that the editors of this site give us more ways to chime in and help than almost any other site in its category, yet the vocal minority want to abuse the hell out of it. That's a surefire way to get us left out in the cold next time they want to do some changes.

FWIW, whenever I choose to redesign my own site, I don't give a flying flip what my readers want to see. Glaring bugs/artifacts? Sure I'll fix those. They want different colors/layouts? They can build their own stylesheets and apply them when they visit.

Reply Score: 5

I like it
by RandomGuy on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 15:13 UTC
RandomGuy
Member since:
2006-07-30

I like the new design, especially how news item are seperated by alternating gray and white. Threaded view rocks too and so does the preview.
What I don't like is ads between comments/news items. It's way too intrusive for my taste.

All in all I'd say keep up the great work, guys.
And remember, there are probably a lot of people who like the design or think it's ok but don't post anything. So don't get too upset over all the "It sucks!"-posts :-)

Reply Score: 1

How to destroy perfect site?
by dejf on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 15:43 UTC
dejf
Member since:
2007-04-03

The recipe is clean and very well tested: just make your logo more fancy - the old one, which is known to users is simply old and the new one could attract some new people, not interested in original content, but readers aren't here for content, they're here for adds.
Another part is: make it as incompatible with old a least used browsers, it could filter those using specialized software, OSnews is for masses, is't it?
Make it fancy, but much less transparrent - users will spend much more time with your web, but maybe for last time.
Many good sites are changing to be unreadable, fancy, glithering and so on. But I thought that technological webs should be on the other side of barricade, I was terribly wrong, most technological webs are as stupid as marketing webs of big companies, visuals are on the first place.
I found no new functions, duno what should they be for, I read OSnews for more than five years and registered today to try to stop it's ending.

Reply Score: 1

Like the old one better...
by Obry on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 15:58 UTC
Obry
Member since:
2005-07-28

I guess I can understand why you would want to refresh the design of OS News but frankly I like the old one better. It is simpler, easier to find what you're looking for and not overwhelming like this one. This one is just confusing to me. No clear separation between stuff... I don't know. I actually hope the old design remains available for those of us who rather use that.

Reply Score: 2

Feature request
by sbergman27 on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 16:01 UTC
sbergman27
Member since:
2005-07-24

I request that polls be added to v3. Because I would really like to see the poll results for the poll question:

"Do you think that OSNews needs a version 4 at all?"

Reply Score: 2

Ad Filter customization, please
by cyberkoa on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 16:46 UTC
cyberkoa
Member since:
2006-10-18

everyday see the MS advertisement until I want to vomit.

Reply Score: 2

jayson.knight Member since:
2005-07-06

"everyday see the MS advertisement until I want to vomit."

Use Firefox + Adblock. Or cough up the 20 bucks for a yearly membership if you hate it that much. Adverts on sites are a way of life now...get over it.

Reply Score: 2

dejf Member since:
2007-04-03

Yes, seeing Microsoft add makes turn the addblock on...

Reply Score: 2

It's not a religion
by Hands on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 17:07 UTC
Hands
Member since:
2005-06-30

I have enjoyed visiting OSNews for quite a while. It has even become my first stop for tech news. As long as the content of the site doesn't change, I can learn to use the new version of the site. I'm not going to get religious about how the site looks.

I have to say that I like a lot of the changes. I don't necessarily like all of them, but I think the net effect is positive.

I don't like the new logo. I don't think the old logo was perfect, but I prefer it to the new one.

Another thing, since themes are now easier to create, it would be nice for more themes to be available to everyone (not just subscribers). Perhaps when new themes are introduced, they could be made available to everyone, and some of the most popular ones would then be tagged for subscribers only. I personally like to use a theme different from the default (even if it's only a different color scheme) to make it easier to recognize when I am logged in.

I think the approach to adding incentives for people to subscribe is a good one (don't make the site worse for everyone; make it better for subscribers). There didn't seem to be many reasons for subscribing before. If subscriptions allow OSNews to provide a better experience for everyone, I'm all for it. I might even subscribe myself.

Regarding moderation and abuse (it doesn't seem to have changed yet, but I know it has been considered), I think the current system works better than it did in the past. I also agree with comments that have been made that OSNews doesn't need to recreate a mod system in use by another site (like /.). I do think that it might be beneficial for some people other than site owners (probably subscribers) to be able to mark comments as abusive/offensive or substantive. Perhaps it could be done in a way that three or more subscribers would need to mark a comment as abusive/substantive in order to have any effect on the comment. Such comments could then receive a visual cue to mark them appropriately. I know that some posts really don't need to be read while others deserve higher than a score of +5.

The last gripe that I would mention is that the "Post Comment" link should add fields to the bottom of a page (to be able to refer to other content) instead of opening a new page.

Reply Score: 2

RE: It's not a religion
by Thom_Holwerda on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 17:29 UTC in reply to "It's not a religion"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

The last gripe that I would mention is that the "Post Comment" link should add fields to the bottom of a page (to be able to refer to other content) instead of opening a new page.


That's a vali gripe, and Adam said he will be ironing this one out before final.

Reply Score: 1

Logo
by IgnitusBoyone on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 17:35 UTC
IgnitusBoyone
Member since:
2007-02-07

Like all developers we have to change our site around every year or so to keep up with the times. To show off our skills, I like most of the new look though I admit I had to pick the OS3 skin because it will take some time for me to get used to the background in the new skin.

Over all it looks great, but I don't like the new logo at all your old logo was pretty edgy IMO and the new one is flat and lacks depth. In the end its your site keep up the good work.

Reply Score: 1

Default theme should be classic
by gtada on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 18:02 UTC
gtada
Member since:
2005-10-12

I think a lot of the gripes could be solved if the classic theme were cleaned up and set as default.

The new V4 theme is pretty harsh on the eyes. The color scheme somehow feels overly "bright"... it kinda makes me want to squint. V3's color scheme has just enough value and is soothing to look at.

Also, the sidebar is really wide now. If you look at the theme previews, you'll see that the sidebar is fully 25% of an already wide layout. V3 is nice because you can focus on the posts. The V3 sidebar is less intrusive, and the background color is a little darker so the bold text doesn't stand out so much (less contrast). I think the width of the V4 sidebar really competes for attention with the actual content.

If you check out the text justification, the stories are all justified, but the sidebar text has a jagged right edge. This further attracts attention in addition to the size and color of the sidebar. V3 has the sidebar text centered and compartmentalized, and that really minimizes the how much it competes for attention.

Reply Score: 1

Suggestion
by thabrain on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 18:33 UTC
thabrain
Member since:
2005-06-29

First, thanks for putting up this site. It shows what many in the tech world need to do...keep constantly changing.

I've noticed quite a few of the negative comments that other users (even longtime readers) have made about version 4.

I think what many people who post here sometimes forget is that OSNews is not THEIR site. The editors control the content, and the look and feel of the site.

The main reason for my visit to OSNews each day is for just that; the content the site places up is a good read. OSNews links together and contributes stories that are of interest to me being in the IT industry.

And the discussions created from that content are usually good, showing many points of view. However, reading the majority of the comments from this thread would make me wonder if I was the maintainer of this site, why I would ever put it up each day.

Most of the posts were too focused on in my opinion, fluff...yes you want it to look appealing, but in the end, you're still reading content, just like anyone else.

Is the site unreadable? No.


Oh...and onto my suggestion...

If the majority of users don't like the way the site looks for version 4, then maybe the editors of OSNews should take a page from SlashDot and run a contest...

Have the users come up with themes (other than the classic version 3 look) and the top 3 themes get added in as choices for readers. This way, the reader feels like they were part of the process, and it presents the editors with less work in usability.

It's obvious that the maintainers of this page want to change the look. To the Readers: Stop arguing with them, and start helping to make the site what you want it to be.

Edited 2007-04-03 18:43

Reply Score: 3

RE: Suggestion
by Adam S on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 19:17 UTC in reply to "Suggestion"
Adam S Member since:
2005-04-01

take a page from SlashDot and run a contest...

Have the users come up with themes (other than the classic version 3 look) and the top 3 themes get added in as choices for readers.


I will go you one better: to anyone who creates a complete theme for OSNews that requires no (or minimal) changing of our HTML and is appropriate and professional enough for our site - I will entertain posting as a non-subscriber option. Let's see if anyone puts their money where their mouth is.

Maybe we'll have a contest at some point for a default theme, but in the meantime, if you can come up with something and want to submit it, I'll post it. I'll even help if you need assistance understanding the three stylesheets.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Suggestion
by dfwlinuxguy on Tue 3rd Apr 2007 22:00 UTC in reply to "RE: Suggestion"
dfwlinuxguy Member since:
2007-03-23

How about this -

http://dfwlinuxguy.com/osnews/

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Suggestion
by dfwlinuxguy on Wed 4th Apr 2007 14:06 UTC in reply to "RE: Suggestion"
dfwlinuxguy Member since:
2007-03-23

Adam says:

I will go you one better: to anyone who creates a complete theme for OSNews that requires no (or minimal) changing of our HTML and is appropriate and professional enough for our site - I will entertain posting as a non-subscriber option. Let's see if anyone puts their money where their mouth is.

Ok you got it. I believe I've created a theme that meets your criteria and more closely matches the look and feel of the current (v3) version of the site. I've posted it here -

http://dfwlinuxguy.com/osnews/

Adam says:
I will entertain posting (it) as a non-subscriber option.

Please do.

Reply Score: 1

dfwlinuxguy
by Sodapop on Wed 4th Apr 2007 02:08 UTC
Sodapop
Member since:
2005-07-06

Hmmm. I'm going to have to go with dfwlinuxguy's version.

Even though it's not totally better than the one we are currently on.

I'm just the kind of person that doesn't like change when there's nothing wrong with what's currently available.

Reply Score: 1

voting
by Laurence on Wed 4th Apr 2007 15:27 UTC
Laurence
Member since:
2007-03-26

layout wise i like what you've done, but to be honest my biggest gripe with this site is that some people vote comments down purely because they disagree with the content - despite it being on topic, polite and to the point.

maybe if there was a feature where people had to leave a comment behind to explain why they voted negative, that would lead to more fair voting and make the mods job of checking negative votes a great deal easier?

but that aside - i like this site a lot

Reply Score: 1

Attempt to being constructive
by DonQ on Wed 4th Apr 2007 17:35 UTC
DonQ
Member since:
2005-06-29

Some comments about v4 default theme (what is by the way got much better, compared to earlier versions, presented in previous v4 thread). I think some of the following can be extended to any theme, not only to default one. Of course this is my opinion only.

What we (readers) need from site?

Content (information) of course, with opinions, discussion, little flaming and so on.

Why we then cry about site layout? Because (IMHO) new layout has become aggressive, it suppresses content too much. Maybe it would be more precise to say - it destroys content flow (in other words makes site look cluttered).

What kind of content (information) we need?

There are some streams (and/or blocks) of information, which should be readable easily, without content breakage:

1. News headers (most important information stream after entering site)

v3 allows read headers in such a manner like there are absolutely nothing more on page - bold headers just line themselves up, pictures or dark elements are placed aside.

v4 theme breaks this lineup - theme pictures are laid out between headlines, text "XX Comment(s)" are as bold and intense as headers itself.

2. News summaries (second most important information block after looking at headers)

v3 has news summary clearly separated from other information. It's written in biggest and darkest font on lightest background, it's surrounded with non-aggressive border, it fills its area entirely. Other (unimportant) pieces of information, like submitter, comments count etc are not visible while reading summary. So do summaries not overflow one into another - there is strong visual barrier (darker background) between these.

v4 has summary (important part at this stage) written in smaller font than unimportant information. When I'm acquiring information about news content, I don't care about comments count or similar nonsense. Moreover, summary area includes theme picture, breaking text flow - and theme picture is not related to summary anyway, it's just little visual hint for first stage - reading headings.
Summaries area is not properly separated from other reagions. Alternating backgrounds for news blocks create little distinction for different news, but IMHO not enough.

3. Discussion flow (information stream again)

Putting aside somewhat unintuitive link to discussion (I expected to click news heading to land into discussion - false guess, but this is same on v3), I think next:

v3 allows comments reading in single pass, like reading book. Differently from main page, comment headers are not so important here - comment content is. Headers just make something like "paragraf breaks" - minimal effort to understand that next sentence is written by another user.

v4 breaks comments flow altogether (remember, I critique v4 default theme). There are no clear left or right boundaries for text flow; comment headers and footers are overly intensive, they break text layout and so on.

--
I hope I could make my points understandable despite my poor english. I hope my comment will be read by site authors ;)

Reply Score: 2

RE: Attempt to being constructive
by DonQ on Wed 4th Apr 2007 18:09 UTC in reply to "Attempt to being constructive"
DonQ Member since:
2005-06-29

v4 has summary (important part at this stage) written in smaller font than unimportant information.

I have to correct myself: summary font (and some other) does scale along with browser default font size, submitter and comments count font size is constant. Because I use Opera with reduced default font size (16>14), for me summary is written in smaller font; actually it is probably just font sizing problem in css.

Of sourse this doesn't void ideas behind my previous comment (and doesn't make summary more readable).

Reply Score: 1

Yust what I have to say....
by parentaladvisory on Wed 4th Apr 2007 17:56 UTC
parentaladvisory
Member since:
2006-12-18

I like the new version. Maybe the ads in the menu could maybe be at the side of the menu, instead of IN the menu. That might be a problem though with the "Lefty" theme...

In FF 2.0.0.3 on WinXP I have a dotted border around the ad beside the logo. Dont know if it is supposed to be there, doesnt realy bother me... On the same WinXP IE7 displays the same dotted border around the logo to, and the ad covers almost half of the logo. Same with IE6... The smaler the window is, the more of the logo is covered by the ad...

Reply Score: 1

Idea for new "feature"
by parentaladvisory on Wed 4th Apr 2007 19:31 UTC
parentaladvisory
Member since:
2006-12-18

I have noticed that alot of people around here likes to know where people gets their info in comments, therefore why not a button on the "post new comment page" that says "source" or something like that, and a textfield... The display would maybe be something like when you use footnotes in a wordprocessor... a tiny number in the text, and then the source at the bottom of the comment beneath a subtle line or something....

Just an idea....

Reply Score: 1

New motto
by Almafeta on Thu 5th Apr 2007 03:15 UTC
Almafeta
Member since:
2007-02-22

I also would like to take exception to the new motto.

"OSNews: NOT JUST Operating Systems"

Well, that focus is the reason most of us are here and not, say, at Slashdot...

Reply Score: 1