Linked by Thom Holwerda on Tue 17th Apr 2007 22:12 UTC
BeOS & Derivatives Even more Haiku news today. Oliver Ruiz Dorantes, who will be monitoring GSoC student Salvatore Benedetto coming summer, has started work on what will become an office suite for Haiku. His blog already shows the first screenshots of the project. He is seeking for help on the project, so if you have the experience, feel free t help him out. Also, a new batch of icons has been added to Haiku.
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Awesome
by shykid on Tue 17th Apr 2007 22:35 UTC
shykid
Member since:
2007-02-22

Lots of Haiku news and exposure lately. Makes me excited.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Awesome
by TaterSalad on Tue 17th Apr 2007 22:51 UTC in reply to "Awesome"
TaterSalad Member since:
2005-07-06

There sure is. Personally I don't think Haiku gets the recognition it deserves. The Google presentation they did a few months ago certainitly helped with that. Lets hope they continue with more good news.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Awesome
by bulio on Tue 17th Apr 2007 23:49 UTC in reply to "RE: Awesome"
bulio Member since:
2007-04-17

I agree with you. I kept hearing news about Haiku now and then about small developments, and have been following their progress. Lately, they really have been progressing nicely. It really isn't easy trying to clone an OS when you have no source code whatsoever.

Keep up the good work!

Reply Score: 2

RE: Awesome
by JPisini on Tue 17th Apr 2007 22:55 UTC in reply to "Awesome"
JPisini Member since:
2006-01-24

I agree the more news the better it gets more people looking for the Haiku release.

Reply Score: 2

Sweet
by brewin on Tue 17th Apr 2007 23:13 UTC
brewin
Member since:
2005-06-30

Very cool. Although, I was a little confused by the name OOffice. Maybe a different name would be better. Also, the new icons look spiffy, Stippi. ;)

Reply Score: 2

Hmm
by rx182 on Tue 17th Apr 2007 23:55 UTC
rx182
Member since:
2005-07-08

I don't understand the goal of this project. The guy wants to make an office suite? From sratch? That's the most crazy idea I've heard in a while ;)

I know that porting OpenOffice is crazy too but at least you're not reinventing the wheel :| Even with those "open format", making an office suite from scratch is not staightforward.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Hmm
by stestagg on Thu 19th Apr 2007 17:05 UTC in reply to "Hmm"
stestagg Member since:
2006-06-03

Every office suite has to start somewhere. At least by starting from scratch, this guy won't inherit any of the problems that exist with current office suits (speed issues, java etc..).

Reply Score: 3

Bit Soup...
by JonathanBThompson on Tue 17th Apr 2007 23:57 UTC
JonathanBThompson
Member since:
2006-05-26

Ever hear/read the story about Stone Soup?

Someone with a pot of water starts heating it, and puts a stone in it, and people ask them, "Hey, what are you cooking?" they explain it's missing a few things, and ask if they have anything to contribute. Little bit by little bit, the soup grows into something more tasty than hot water with a rock in it, and everyone enjoys.

Seems this may be the Bit Soup Office ;)

Hey, whatever works: it's a massive undertaking, and sooner or later it's hoped Haiku is a desktop OS worthy of attracting more users than merely ubergeeks that develop stuff for fun, and for that, the majority of computer users need good office software. Porting Open Office (ala Sun) would be (at best) a major headache because of how different the threading and system interactions are between BeOS/Haiku and any other platform it currently exists on: just ask the people that worked on the FireFox port how much trouble that caused!

By far, a native application is preferable on any platform, so keep on going!

Reply Score: 4

Couldn't he take OpenOffice and modify it ...
by Sabon on Tue 17th Apr 2007 23:58 UTC
Sabon
Member since:
2005-07-06

Couldn't he take OpenOffice and modify it to fit in with BeOS? It seems like that would be a lot less work. Maybe he could talk to the people at NeoOffice about how they take OpenOffice and convert it to run as a Mac OS X Java app that looks like a Mac program.

I can understand if he just wants to start from scratch. But this could take a couple of years to have a decent office suite or even just a decent Word Processor (as compared to a text editor).

Reply Score: 2

galvanash Member since:
2006-01-25

Could he? Maybe, but it certainly wouldn't be less work. I have not personally worked on Open Office code but I have laid eyes on some of it and until you do it is impossible to fathom just how fricken LARGE it is. Its huge. 400MB of source code consisting of more than 30,000 individual source files and 9,000,000 line of code.

I can tell you with some certainty that a port of OO to BeOS would be MANY orders of magnitude more complex than creating a basic but functional Word Processor/Spreadsheet from scratch. That probably wont stop some people from trying, but the shear magnitude of the task will likely scare off the vast majority of developers.

Anyway, BeOS is known and loved for being small, fast, svelt, etc., generally the opposite of OO... I dont think OO is a good fit at all.

Reply Score: 5

Tyr. Member since:
2005-07-06

Could he? Maybe, but it certainly wouldn't be less work. I have not personally worked on Open Office code but I have laid eyes on some of it and until you do it is impossible to fathom just how fricken LARGE it is. Its huge. 400MB of source code consisting of more than 30,000 individual source files and 9,000,000 line of code.


A better bet would be something like abiword which had a port that was abandoned IIRC. That way a lot of the grunt work would be done.

Personally I think Haiku developers should be focussing on stuff people are going to need directly after R1 is released : up to date & stable firefox port, decent mail client, instant messenger, samba, itunes-like mp3 player. Especially the firefox port would need to be top-notch : promote that along with Google docs & spreadsheet.

Reply Score: 4

tonestone57 Member since:
2005-12-31

A better bet would be something like abiword which had a port that was abandoned IIRC. That way a lot of the grunt work would be done.

Zeta team was working on Abiword 2.4.x, though it never was completed. I believe it is around 85% done. ( I was able to compile it on BeOS & Zeta, but needs more work ).

Abiword is around 130MB for the source vs OpenOffice which is 400MB. In my opinion, Abiword is the best choice for word processor & should be easier to get working on Haiku ( or BeOS ).

Abiword Source For Haiku / Zeta ( svn )
http://dev.osdrawer.net/scm/?group_id=15

Next, for spreadsheet. There is Sum-It which is fairly good, but would need to be updated & bug fixed.

http://sum-it.sourceforge.net/

That gets things started with very good word processor & spreadsheet programs.

Doing an office suite from scratch is lots of work and will require lots of time to do. I think it better to focus instead on Abiword & Sum-It which can get done faster & will work well too.

Edited 2007-04-18 01:34

Reply Score: 5

tonestone57 Member since:
2005-12-31

I'll also add that; Abiword & Sum-It, for Haiku, could be completed in about 6 months time. They definately could be ready in that timeframe.

OpenOffice is a bad choice, because:
1. Source code is 400MB ( lots & lots of code to work with )
2. Uses lots of Xwindows stuff that has to be rewritten.
3. And the java stuff too.

OpenOffice is almost as tough as creating an OS with the amount of code it has.

Porting it over to Mac OS was easier because, if I'm not mistaken, Mac OS X uses BSD type ( compatible ) kernel & Xwindow system ( ie: OS X is similar / close to BSD; So easier to get OO on it ).

Haiku has posix compliance, but the Xwindow ( and Java? - maybe have Java for Haiku by then? ) code would have to be rewritten. Not easy to do.

The easiest stuff to port to Haiku ( or BeOS ) is applications / programs that are posix compliant and either use console or SDL ( ie: Xwindow stuff needs lots more work to do - code has to be rewritten ).

Edited 2007-04-18 01:49

Reply Score: 2

helf Member since:
2005-07-06

Theres X11 for BeOS and OSX... but no, OSX doesnt use X by default... at least not from waht I know...

Reply Score: 2

aesiamun Member since:
2005-06-29

i don't think it really matters what you think HIS time is best spent on. He's donating his time to what he thinks will be best. Abiword + Sum-it isn't that.

Need you guys be so critical of what he's doing? He wants to do what he thinks would be a good word processor for Haiku. This isn't zeta, this isn't BeOS anymore. This is Haiku. Let Haiku have it's own.

If you think firefox is more important, you work on firefox, you work on samba or whatever else you think is more important. Leave this guy alone.

Reply Score: 5

Tyr. Member since:
2005-07-06

i don't think it really matters what you think HIS time is best spent on. He's donating his time to what he thinks will be best. Abiword + Sum-it isn't that.

Need you guys be so critical of what he's doing? He wants to do what he thinks would be a good word processor for Haiku. This isn't zeta, this isn't BeOS anymore. This is Haiku. Let Haiku have it's own.


I thought the whole idea of a comments section was to comment, analyse, speculate on and critique the news ;-)

Reply Score: 5

aesiamun Member since:
2005-06-29

Nah it's for flamewars and mac vs win, emacs vs vim, python vs perl, coke vs pepsi arguments ;)

Reply Score: 1

aesiamun Member since:
2005-06-29

Yeah that's what Haiku needs for R1...an iTunes like MP3 player...

Reply Score: 1

Tyr. Member since:
2005-07-06

Yeah that's what Haiku needs for R1...an iTunes like MP3 player...


No need to be sarcastic. Haiku is a desktop oriented OS, this means providing apps people use frequently at home. Everyone has mp3's on their pc, everyone needs a decent app to play and manage them. This is suppposed to be a media-os right ?

Look at what people use and try to fill that need. To me this means browser > mail > mp3. And I don't think that people after years of using iTunes and its clones on linux will be satisfied with a 90's era player.

Of course this is all just IMHO.

Edit : to clarify I'm talking about third party apps, not suggesting that any of this should be done by the Haiku-os people. They've enough on their hands.

Edited 2007-04-18 09:58 UTC

Reply Score: 2

stestagg Member since:
2006-06-03

And of course, noone uses a desktop word processor. I mean, what's the use of being able to produce letters, reports, documents or anything serious on a home machine? What people really need is the ability to listen to music. When will people realise that food, beer, sleep and MP3s are the only things that people need to survive in life?

[/sarcasm]
ste.

Reply Score: 2

Earl Colby pottinger Member since:
2005-07-06

Look again, Haiku's MediaPlayer looks like it will end up features found in SoundPlay.

MediaPlayer already supports most sound formats and a number of video formats, I expect streaming to end up added to the mix soon.

As good as ITunes? No. A 90's music player? No-Way.

Reply Score: 1

aesiamun Member since:
2005-06-29

I think my point was that I don't think an "iTunes like mp3 player" is a good solution. I liked soundplay a lot, and hope the solution will be along the same lines. Offer a music player that supports multiple formats and keep video out. iTunes is just...messy.

Reply Score: 1

Earl Colby pottinger Member since:
2005-07-06

I think you are missing a point about BeOS here.

MediaPlay plays media files - all types of media files, as long as a BeOS codec exists on the system. That is the true beauty of BeOS, things just work.

Reply Score: 2

aesiamun Member since:
2005-06-29

No, i get it. I don't agree with it.

I don't like all in one software apps. Just like I don't like all in one phones, stereos, dvd + tv players, etc...

Reply Score: 1

vasper Member since:
2005-07-22

Haiku needs native programs more than ports. Ports are only useful until a viable native solution comes. There is already AbiWord 1.0 and Sumit running on BeOS. True they are old versions, but they do the basic job until a native app comes. Now if only a browser can be completed too. Firefox is great, but Haiku should also have a good native browser.

Reply Score: 5

plfiorini Member since:
2005-06-30

I saw many projects for a Web browser.
Actually (since Qt developers are doing so and their API seems like the BeOS/Haiku one) WebCore seems a good thing in order to make a native Browser.

As for AbiWord and Sum-it, I think that they can be used to create both a Word Processor and a Spreadsheet for Haiku.

Before working on a WP and a Spreadsheet it would be better to create some new widgets used for these applications.

Reply Score: 1

Not OpenOffice, but maybe GNOME Office
by Sodki on Wed 18th Apr 2007 00:43 UTC
Sodki
Member since:
2005-11-10

Abiword and Gnumeric are quite a capable duo and much more simpler to hack than OpenOffice.org.

Reply Score: 3

Why not
by sogabe on Wed 18th Apr 2007 02:24 UTC
sogabe
Member since:
2006-04-27

This does not have to compete with OpenOffice or AbiWord. Instead, it can be in the realm of minimalistic yet useful application.

If somebody is willing to spend the time putting together a decent native word processor program for Haiku with basic functionality that would allow users to write simple letters and/or documents without the bloat, I am all for it!

Reply Score: 2

RE: Why not
by ThawkTH on Wed 18th Apr 2007 02:33 UTC in reply to "Why not"
ThawkTH Member since:
2005-07-06

Anybody love the idea of a Native BeOS office suite?

Not X11
Not GTK
Not QT

Nothing of the sort. A completely new, capable little suite - quick, logical, and efficient...Something that betrays itself with it's simplicity...?

Hey, I can dream. We can dream. Wasn't that long ago that Haiku was just a dream! And look how far it's come!

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Why not
by CPUGuy on Wed 18th Apr 2007 12:55 UTC in reply to "RE: Why not"
CPUGuy Member since:
2005-07-06

Ever here of GoBe Productive?

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Why not
by tonestone57 on Wed 18th Apr 2007 15:14 UTC in reply to "RE: Why not"
tonestone57 Member since:
2005-12-31

Don't get me wrong. I'd love to see Haiku "native" software & drivers. I'm sure everybody wants this.

A Haiku office suite, web browser, drivers, etc., would be great. But, the reality is, how long before Haiku Office is as good as Abiword or is even released for use? Maybe 2 or more years?

What about web browser that is close to functionality as Firefox? When will that be done? Or native wifi drivers? Or ...., etc.

Using ports is the best way to get the OS fully functional in the shortest time. So, when R1 comes out we can have up to date ports & a fully working OS which will attract more end users. Example: Zeta used ndis wrapper (window wifi drivers), Cups (Unix Printer Support) & BeSane (Unix Scanner Support). If they decided to go for native instead then how long before most users got support for their printer, scanner & wifi cards???? Answer, many years. And, would anyone have even bothered with Zeta without these ports?

I'd rather have an OS with most things working right now ( through ports ) than one where I'm waiting, waiting and waiting for the native solution to appear some years down the road.

Ports are the fastest way to get things going and afterwards they can be replaced with native solutions once available.

As for the Haiku native office suite. It'll be great to have when it's done, but in the meantime users will have to use either older Abiword 1.0 "port" or purchase Gobe Office ( made for BeOS ) - luckily we have these 2 options available to us. So, I suggested Abiword 2.4 because it is about 85% ported to BeOS & could be finished before R1 gets released so users have a more modern word processor to use with Haiku until a native one is done. Same thing goes for web browser. Use Firefox until a comparable native replacement is made., etc., etc.

Ports are the better solution until as good as or better native solutions come along!

Reply Score: 1

RE: Why not
by lucky13 on Wed 18th Apr 2007 18:41 UTC in reply to "Why not"
lucky13 Member since:
2007-04-01

Instead, it can be in the realm of minimalistic yet useful application.

I hate the Mac-PC ads, but your reply reminds me of the one when Mac talks about how many apps come with Macs so they're useful out of the box and then PC stupidly brags about coming with a calculator. Woohoo...

Haiku will not have widespread adoption until and unless users can do everything as easily, as well, as completely, etc., as they can using their current OSes. In fact, I'll go further. Haiku won't expand much further than the hobbyists who are already enthralled with its "promise" right now unless it can exceed -- not merely match, but beat the bleeping socks off -- application offerings (qualitatively and quantitatively) of other OSes. No killer app, no future. Why would people ditch what they already have in 2007 and take a step back to 1987 or even 1997?

If you want a simple, bloat-free wordprocessor, try porting ted. It's X11-based, but its source tarball is about 3MB. Certainly would be easier than totally reinventing the wheel -- but that's what Haiku is all about, eh.

http://www.nllgg.nl/Ted/

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Why not
by Richard-LA on Wed 18th Apr 2007 19:48 UTC in reply to "RE: Why not"
Richard-LA Member since:
2007-04-17

Widespread adoption is a bad goal to have early on and very unrealistic; you end up trying to be all things to all people and get nowhere.

I hope the Haiku focus is to evolve to be the choice OS for a small and particular niche of professionals -- those developing media content, especially video content. It could be the OS of choice for indy film developers with just a few good apps.

Success breeds more success; find a niche and succeed, and other good things will follow.

Hats off to anyone willing to put time and energy into creating an app for Haiku; even if it doesn't finish, if there is a good design then objects from the source can be used elsewhere. It will be a good learning experience at the worst.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Why not
by lucky13 on Wed 18th Apr 2007 22:46 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Why not"
lucky13 Member since:
2007-04-01

Widespread adoption is a bad goal to have early on and very unrealistic; you end up trying to be all things to all people and get nowhere.

Being aloof by catering to the desires of a small group would also insure that its development (a) stagnates and (b) becomes so insular and narrow that outside interest can never develop. Worse, if it's too "quirky" or novel, it stands very little chance of being adopted outside its development group.

BeOS had the same goal with respect to media content you want Haiku to have. How'd that work out? Not so good last time I checked. Funny that.

Also, filmmakers don't live their lives in vacuums. Haiku shouldn't be developed in one. Focusing on too tight a niche can be as poor a strategy as being too broad. Then you might be better off talking about an application instead of an entire operating system. And with all due respect, you're moving your goalposts back years rather than forward considering how many open source, Windows, and Mac applications are already standards in filmmaking.

Hats off to anyone willing to put time and energy into creating an app for Haiku

Hats off to anyone creating apps for any OS, especially ones that can and will be used (not to mention that can and will be useful).

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Why not
by Richard-LA on Thu 19th Apr 2007 01:38 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Why not"
Richard-LA Member since:
2007-04-17

Well, IMHO Be, Inc. failed because it didn't push hard enough on being a prime choice for media development, and it had a focus switch to being an Internet Appliance. Also, they went public which I think was a bad idea, and started their end.

I think comparing Be with Haiku doesn't work because Be's problem wasn't technology, but rather management decisions.

I don't accept the argument about "standards" in filmmaking, or anything. Plus all the indy filmmakers I know are pretty much living in a vaccuum, give them something better and they'll use it without question. Anyway, if one allowed standards to prevent developing new applications then we wouldn't get anywhere interesting.

Haiku will be the source of inspiration for people to write great software that sets new standards. Today's moaners and naysayers will thank the Haiku developers later on ;)

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Why not
by lucky13 on Thu 19th Apr 2007 16:12 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Why not"
lucky13 Member since:
2007-04-01

IMHO Be, Inc. failed because it didn't push hard enough on being a prime choice for media development

They did. That didn't catch on. It wasn't a better mousetrap -- at least the market didn't think so.

I think comparing Be with Haiku doesn't work because Be's problem wasn't technology, but rather management decisions.

I think the two went hand-in-hand. You can't catch a wave of mass support without applications. As much as I respect the design and function of microkernel OSes like BeOS and even Minix, most people are never going to use them without applications that rival (or, IMO, exceed) what's already available.

I don't accept the argument about "standards" in filmmaking

Maybe you should try. If you can't build a better mousetrap, if you can't convince others you've built a better mousetrap, they're not going to use it. Not when they already have useful, functional, feature-rich mousetraps. Geeks will care about API, kernelspace, etc. Users will only care about what it can do for them, and if it does it better than what they've already time and training.

Haiku will be the source of inspiration...

People find inspiration in all kinds of crazy crap already. I don't think Haiku is a better mousetrap, so I can't share your lofty expectations.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Why not
by stestagg on Thu 19th Apr 2007 17:16 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Why not"
stestagg Member since:
2006-06-03

Widespread adoption is a bad goal to have early on and very unrealistic; you end up trying to be all things to all people and get nowhere.

- Quoth he without any ambition

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Why not
by StephenBeDoper on Mon 23rd Apr 2007 02:15 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Why not"
StephenBeDoper Member since:
2005-07-06

- Quoth he without any ambition


Impressive - you've managed to combine both Ad Hominem and the "Salesman's Close" tactic.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Why not
by El-Al on Wed 18th Apr 2007 20:33 UTC in reply to "RE: Why not"
El-Al Member since:
2006-04-17

Who mentioned widespread adoption/world domination in this thread regarding Haiku?

As you know, the BeOS 'philosophy' was all about ease of use. Talk to me about the 'ease' of configuring certain parts of any GNU/Linux distribution you care to mention. Talk to me about stability, reliability issues, re-installing Windows, failed Linux installs etc.

To my knowledge, there is not an x86 OS out there that fits your description of OS 'nirvana' unless, of course, you happen to be absorbed by fixing computers that don't work properly or have the neccessary skills to do so without thinking about it.

What you fail to mention is that one persons nirvana is anothers sh*tpit. In other word, my computing needs are different from yours. Linux...tried it, Windows, dislike it with avengeance. OSX...will never own a Mac.

Now, if 'hobbyists' like myself, wish to root for an OS like Haiku, complete with it's miniscule userbase, for a lack of satisfaction with the rest of the OS offerings out there, then Ok, I just don't see your problem. If you don't have an, interest, why even respond to the thread with nothing but sour grapes?

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Why not
by lucky13 on Thu 19th Apr 2007 16:05 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Why not"
lucky13 Member since:
2007-04-01

Talk to me about the 'ease' of configuring certain parts of any GNU/Linux distribution you care to mention. Talk to me about stability, reliability issues, re-installing Windows, failed Linux installs etc.

Addressed it on my blog with a few recommendations I suggested might be off-topic in my previous reply along with a pic of torsmo showing uptime on my most recent Linux install: 29d, 13h, 7m.

http://lucky13.blogsavy.com/

:-)

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Why not
by petterhj on Thu 19th Apr 2007 16:23 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Why not"
petterhj Member since:
2005-08-19

So there’s your stability. No crashes and nearly a full month of uptime. Try that with Haiku.

What about "pre-alpha" did you not understand?

Edited 2007-04-19 16:24

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: Why not
by lucky13 on Thu 19th Apr 2007 16:28 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Why not"
lucky13 Member since:
2007-04-01

What about "pre-alpha" did you not understand?

Heh, that's MY point. Isn't it rich that someone ask questions about stability, ease of use/configuration, when his OS of choice has very little of any of that yet?

Linux was way ahead of Haiku at the same stages of development (with respect to time).

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: Why not
by El-Al on Thu 19th Apr 2007 16:55 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Why not"
El-Al Member since:
2006-04-17

Heh! Who said anything about OS of choice? You have no idea what my OS of choice is as I have yet to find a _single_ OS that fits my needs. I use three and one is GNU/Linux.

If you had read the sentence as it was intended to be read, you would be aware that the reliability, stability, re-install issues I mention are aimed at entirely at Windows, not Linux.

I stand by my bad experiences with configuring Linux _and_ failed Linux installs but you are right, this is off-topic so I won't list them here. Any amount of 'bleating' on you blog is unlikely to change my mind.

Reply Score: 0

RE[7]: Why not
by lucky13 on Thu 19th Apr 2007 17:09 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Why not"
lucky13 Member since:
2007-04-01

If you had read the sentence as it was intended to be read

Maybe if you'd written it the way you wanted it to be read...

I stand by my bad experiences with configuring Linux _and_ failed Linux installs...

I'm not surprised. :-)

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: Why not
by Steven on Fri 20th Apr 2007 20:43 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Why not"
Steven Member since:
2005-07-20

Linux was way ahead of Haiku at the same stages of development (with respect to time).

That's because all the GNU utilities already existed in full versions before the linux kernel ever existed. If all the Haiku people had to work on was a kernel replacement for BeOS it would be a hell of a lot more stable and quite a bit farther along.

Why can't people put ideas together properly?

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Why not
by lucky13 on Wed 18th Apr 2007 22:46 UTC in reply to "RE: Why not"
lucky13 Member since:
2007-04-01

why even respond to the thread with nothing but sour grapes?

You tell me -- your post is the one dripping with vinegar. I *did* offer a constructive idea in using GPL code as a base rather than reinventing the word processor wheel.

As far as your screed about configuring Linux distros, I'd be more than happy to recommend several that even a BeOS user could run (and fwiw, I've never had a "failed" Linux install). Wouldn't that be off-topic, though? :-)

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Why not
by StephenBeDoper on Mon 23rd Apr 2007 02:40 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Why not"
StephenBeDoper Member since:
2005-07-06

As far as your screed about configuring Linux distros, I'd be more than happy to recommend several that even a BeOS user could run (and fwiw, I've never had a "failed" Linux install).


Affected superiority and self-congratulation, what charming combination.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Why not
by lucky13 on Mon 23rd Apr 2007 23:40 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Why not"
lucky13 Member since:
2007-04-01

Did you have anything substantive to add to the discussion? No? Thanks for sharing your own, err, "charm."

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: Why not
by StephenBeDoper on Tue 24th Apr 2007 00:34 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Why not"
StephenBeDoper Member since:
2005-07-06

Did you have anything substantive to add to the discussion?


You've done a pretty good job of ensuring that the "discussion" is not worth contributing to in any serious way. It's also painfully evident, based on the numerous infantile cheapshots you've posted in this thread, that you yourself have absolutely no interest in anything resembling adult discourse (the bitter rants on your blog are ample proof of that).

If you so long for substantive discussion, then perhaps you ought to offer some actual substantive criticism - as opposed to the juvenile mudslinging and bitter rants you've posted here and on your blog. So far, you don't appear to be doing anything other than cherry-picking the most obviously-false claims related to Haiku and then using those claims to draw generalized, disingenuous conclusions. In other words, pretty much the exact opposite of the actions that one takes when they're interested in rational, adult discussion.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Why not
by lucky13 on Tue 24th Apr 2007 13:54 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Why not"
lucky13 Member since:
2007-04-01

> Did you have anything substantive to add to the discussion?

You've done a pretty good job of ensuring that the "discussion" is not worth contributing to in any serious way.


So that's a no then. What are the rules here again about personal attacks? I've addressed some pretty serious shortcomings of an OS, not made personal statements about individuals like you have.

Want more shortcomings? How about the fact that Haiku pays homage to Win95 in being available only for single user? How about the (in)security issues R1 will be plagued with because of that AND the fact that it lacks any protection via permission levels -- something even MS finally/reluctantly addressed in NT/ME/XP/Vista by adding an administrator level?

Any remote/local attack could relinquish full use of the computer on which Haiku is installed to a hacker. Unlikely? Then how many BeOS vulnerabilities will carry over to Haiku? How many new ones will there be?
http://search.securityfocus.com/swsearch?sbm=%2F&metaname=alldo...

Good thing it doesn't take long to boot Haiku -- you're already in good practice for trying to reclaim your computer from 10 year-old Lithuanians.

Edit: While I'm on the subject of security, can you still call delete_area() universally in Haiku?
http://www.haiku-security.com/index.php?sname=alerts

Edited 2007-04-24 14:07

Reply Score: 1

RE[8]: Why not
by MYOB on Tue 24th Apr 2007 22:14 UTC in reply to "RE[7]: Why not"
MYOB Member since:
2005-06-29

Considering your blog, where you're posting an obsessive level of FUD, doesn't have a comments facility I'll just have to respond to some of your crap here

You claim that GSoC resources are being used to write a word processor - they're not. The person working on one is coincidentally a GSoC mentor - this does not mean that any Google resources are being used.

You claim that Haiku hasn't got a functional net stack - it has. It hasn't got a stable net stack, but thats something entirely different.

Based on you making two inaccuracy-laden posts in one day about an OS I doubt you're ever likely to use, about all one can take from that is that you're a vindicative little child, worried that competition to whatever OS it is you love is a bad thing.

You also have an unhealthy obsession with Baltic teenagers. Think you might need to keep this in check.

Edited 2007-04-24 22:16

Reply Score: 1

Naysaying
by Seth Quarrier on Wed 18th Apr 2007 03:19 UTC
Seth Quarrier
Member since:
2005-11-13

What is with all of the naysaying. The beauty of Free Software is that if someone has an itch to scratch (and this seems to be a pretty important one) they can do so and we should all give them our support.

This may not be the fastest way to get a complete office suite for Haiku but it is certainly the best long run option. In terms of ports if that road is explored I wonder how KOffice would be in difficulty in porting in comparison with say OO.org or Abiword. I would guess that there would be a lot of library porting, but once that was done there would be a huge library of apps available for very little extra overhead. However, I could see concerns, such as voiced in the Syllable community, that ports discourage applications from being developled using the native libraries which is the whole point for a unified desktop.

Reply Score: 3

Haiku is unique
by mabhatter on Wed 18th Apr 2007 05:59 UTC
mabhatter
Member since:
2005-07-17

It's unique and should have a unique office program matched to what it can do. Remember messaging and servers.. any good office program has to use those cool abilities to tie windows together and pull programs into other programs that BeOS had. In my opinion that was why commercial people didn't want to touch it. BeOS was a very "one program" type system. Properly written programs were more a pool of small programs than one single "exe". The problem any commercial app would have under an OS like Be would be other users ripping off the modules to use in their own apps.. BeOS supported "mashups" long before it was ever thought of by polite programmers.

I think Koffice or Abiword would be a good start. If haiku could hack DBus messaging into the built in messaging they could open up the whole world of QT apps. Abiword is "good enough" for normal use also. Both have Openoffice.org swx and odf documents supported in the mainline now.... THAT is the biggest selling point. If you have ODF you can talk to the other players in the open source space!!!

You can gain a lot from firefox and it's plug-ins also. And Firefox 3 will add some really cool stuff in terms of caching and working offline.

Reply Score: 2

Might be off subject here, but...
by Arthur on Wed 18th Apr 2007 07:17 UTC
Arthur
Member since:
2007-01-02

will Gobe productive suite work with Haiku?

Reply Score: 2

nmalth Member since:
2007-03-12

My thoughts exactly. I might give it a try.

I see Gobe still exists, currently offering Gobe Productive 3.04 for Windows. You have to wonder how their focus shift has gone...

Certainly if anyone could put up a reasonably fully-featured office suite for Haiku in a shortish time, it would have to be them. Commercial, of course; you couldn't expect them to open-source it now. And you could understand if they take a once-bitten-twice-shy attitude to Haiku. But still, potential customers are potential customers...

(Any Gobe people still lurking in these parts?)

Reply Score: 2

Datatec Member since:
2005-06-29

Gobe appears to be dead, I have tried several times in the past to contact them. For some reason my boxed copy of GobeProductive 2 came up one day with This trial has expired, I uninstalled it then reinstalled it from disk. Nope, heard that there is a way to hack it to work again but personally not worth it for me. Gobe's support forum closed, and no one answeres the phone, all their reviews and press pages etc. refer to 2004ist time. Someone had said they had purchased the rights to the code and then later said the deal fell through, as far as I know that was the last heard from Gobe, other then at one time their was a comment about Zeta not paying correctly for liscences, then that was it.

Reply Score: 3

parrotjoe Member since:
2005-07-06

If your CD of GoBe is 2.0, this will happen. If so, go to BeBits and download the 2.01 update - that will fix it.

Reply Score: 2

_yc_ Member since:
2007-04-03

Gobe should either recompile and maintain or donate the source code of the BeOS Verison of the Productive Suite to the Haiku organization.

Freeing the source is is probably the best if not the only way to salvage the code and put it to good use and maintain it. The project could be managed under Haiku or a separate non-profit organization.

This would be a huge boost to Haiku.

ciao
yc

Reply Score: 2

lucky13 Member since:
2007-04-01

Gobe should either recompile and maintain or donate the source code of the BeOS Verison of the Productive Suite to the Haiku organization.

Why should they do any of that? All of that, including "donating" source code (it's not as easy as you think -- it requires engineers and lawyers to go through the code line by line with a fine-tooth comb), would cost them money they'll never recover. You want the code, offer to buy it from them. Better start selling brownies or something.

Freeing the source is is probably the best if not the only way to salvage the code and put it to good use and maintain it. The project could be managed under Haiku or a separate non-profit organization.

Why does Gobe care if their BeOS-related code is salvaged, put to use, etc.? BeOS is dead. They still sell Productive for Windows online. How in the world do you propose they protect their Windows-related code -- from which they derive revenue -- while giving away their BeOS-related code?

This would be a huge boost to Haiku.

What's in it for Gobe? Do they even give a rat's [bleep] about Haiku?

Reply Score: 2

Earl Colby pottinger Member since:
2005-07-06

Since that file is on my old website which I have not paid for for over a year I did not expect it to work.

However I just went to http://www.bebits.com/app/4147 and downloaded it with no problems.

If it stops working in the future I will move it to my new ISP/website.

Reply Score: 1

darkwyrm Member since:
2006-03-15

While I really want to see Gobe Productive working under Haiku. It currently doesn't and there's a ticket in the bug tracker. ;)

Reply Score: 1

Hmm... the pragmatic advice
by Luminair on Wed 18th Apr 2007 07:20 UTC
Luminair
Member since:
2007-03-30

Building a massive software system like an office suite (aka Office clone) for a new proprietary and unpopular operating system is not the smartest thing in the world to do.

Building a small, simple application to fill a certain role, okay. But a big system, oof...

Given the rise of complex web-based applications such as email-over-web and collaborative-document-editing-over-web, taking on such a large challenge as cloning Abiword or OpenOffice would be crazy-talk at best. Partly because of the redundant work needed, partly because the roles can largely be filled by a web browser, and partly because the OS itself is not a sound investment unless your time is cheap.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Hmm... the pragmatic advice
by brewin on Wed 18th Apr 2007 08:02 UTC in reply to "Hmm... the pragmatic advice"
brewin Member since:
2005-06-30

Building a massive software system like an office suite (aka Office clone) for a new proprietary and unpopular operating system is not the smartest thing in the world to do.


Proprietary?

Reply Score: 1

RE: Hmm... the pragmatic advice
by Vanders on Wed 18th Apr 2007 09:28 UTC in reply to "Hmm... the pragmatic advice"
Vanders Member since:
2005-07-06

Something somebody chooses to do in their own free time does not have to bring value to anyone but themselves. A surprisingly large number of people are happy to tell someone else what they should do, without doing the work themselves.

Reply Score: 4

Missing the point
by blitze on Wed 18th Apr 2007 11:09 UTC
blitze
Member since:
2006-09-15

That is of the design of the underlying OS of which Haiku inherits from BeOS.
Having a native office suite allows for the use of system wide plugin architecture that allows for so much more than on other OS's. For instance: Once you have a plugin to handle JPEG's for a specific application, then all other applications can utilise the plugin's JPEG capability.

This is just one of the things that separate BeOS/Haiku from other OS's.

Reply Score: 1

Look at the screenshots...
by Luposian on Wed 18th Apr 2007 14:39 UTC
Luposian
Member since:
2005-07-27

Anyone else notice something? The screenshots are from Zeta, not BeOS R5 and definitely not from Haiku. I really don't see the point. An app being written for Zeta isn't even going to work in Haiku, that I know of.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Look at the screenshots...
by umccullough on Wed 18th Apr 2007 14:57 UTC in reply to "Look at the screenshots..."
umccullough Member since:
2006-01-26

An app being written for Zeta isn't even going to work in Haiku, that I know of.

This is of course wrong. Apps written for Zeta can run just fine in R5 and Haiku as long as they don't use any zeta-specific APIs. If you have the source, it should be a minor effort to recompile it for R5.

On the other hand, there is some mention of certain GUI widgets that exist in Zeta that the developer needs in Haiku - so it may very well turn out that a project like this ends up contributing some new "experimental" GUI widgets to Haiku.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Look at the screenshots...
by Luposian on Wed 18th Apr 2007 16:02 UTC in reply to "RE: Look at the screenshots..."
Luposian Member since:
2005-07-27

Given the severely illegal status of Zeta, as dictated by Access, I wouldn't want a single pixel from Zeta to get anywhere NEAR Haiku! Tainted code taints EVERYTHING! It's like GPL! Even worse!

Gives me icy cold shivers, just thinking about it...

Besides, I run Haiku to use Haiku. Not to look like Windows or AmigaOS, or MacOS. Even when using BeOS, I never touched (nor appreciated) the "Decorators" available. I accessed it, just once, to see what it was about and never did again.

People who try and make their OS look like another OS (oh, say... Windows XP users trying to make their system look like MacOS X, for example) are only proving the fact that they wish it WAS that OS they're trying to look like.

If you're gonna look like Zeta... why not just USE Zeta? If you're gonna look like Windows, just USE Windows.

BeOS is BeOS. Zeta is Zeta (which, as we all now know, is an illegal version of BeOS R5.1). AmigaOS is AmigaOS. MacOS X is MacOS X. Use the OS you're trying to look like, instead of being a wanna-be.

I am a BeOS/Haiku/MacOS X (my three favorite OS's) purist. To take *ANY* GUI "widgets" from Zeta is going to look extremely hokey in Haiku, because it won't "fit", looks-wise.

Besides, who wants to have ANY association, in looks or function... to an OS whose very *existance* is deemed illegal by the new BeOS IP owners? Are we all crazy or something?

I never appreciated the whole Dano/BONE leak thing. Then we have a bunch of apps over at BeBits that won't run in BeOS R5, because it needs "BONE" or it needs "Dano". Making apps that only run on (or require) illegally leaked code is just plain disgusting to me.

Sorry for getting "ranty". But this kinda stuff just gives me hairballs, yaknow?

Reply Score: 0

umccullough Member since:
2006-01-26

Given the severely illegal status of Zeta, as dictated by Access, I wouldn't want a single pixel from Zeta to get anywhere NEAR Haiku! Tainted code taints EVERYTHING! It's like GPL! Even worse!

Oh come on now, you're really going overboard there.

That's like saying: You can't write software using Microsoft's .NET Framework with the target platform intended to be Mono. It's the same API! BeOS had it first (before Zeta) - so what is the big deal? Haiku uses (mostly) the same API as BeOS/Zeta anyway - so you're really nitpicking here.

The code belongs to this developer - if he wishes to use Zeta to develop it, and then compile it for Haiku later, that's entirely his business. Why people get so upset about this, I don't understand.

Edit: BTW, in case you didn't notice - quite a few of the Haiku developers USED to work on Zeta at one point or another...

Edited 2007-04-18 17:09

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: Look at the screenshots...
by smitty on Wed 18th Apr 2007 17:57 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Look at the screenshots..."
smitty Member since:
2005-10-13

To take *ANY* GUI "widgets" from Zeta is going to look extremely hokey in Haiku, because it won't "fit", looks-wise.

You're right, and while we're at it, let's get rid of all the scrollbar widgets in Haiku. I'm certain I've seen them in other OS's and therefore they look horrible and foreign in Haiku.

Besides, who wants to have ANY association, in looks or function... to an OS whose very *existance* is deemed illegal by the new BeOS IP owners? Are we all crazy or something?

Apparently everyone who wants to use Haiku or BeOS, because they're all very similar OS's.

Edited 2007-04-18 18:00

Reply Score: 4

dtravis7 Member since:
2005-07-14

I guess I better stop using OSX. It has Scroll Bars like Windows and Icons just like Windows. I better quit using iTunes as there is a Windows version that looks just like it! And yes, I am being sarcastic.

Reply Score: 1

Luposian Member since:
2005-07-27

What people are not realizing is that Zeta was borne of an illegally acquired codebase of BeOS. And, by all current accounts, should have been ceased immediately from it's inception.

To me, any "changes" (graphical wigets or whatever) that were made are borne of Zeta's illegality and, therefore, any semblance of those changes appearing in Haiku or an app for Haiku, should be considered impermissible (not permitted).

Reply Score: 1

umccullough Member since:
2006-01-26

Did you even bother read the blog content around this app? - we're talking about missing GUI widgets that most OSes already have - toolbar, splitpane, listview - i mean jeez!

These are widgets that many other BeOS programs have proprietary implementations for already - all this guy is trying to say is: Haiku needs some of these, Zeta already has some standard ones, and he has been borrowing code from other projects in order to get some of them.

Don't you think it would be important for Haiku to provide much-needed GUI widgets that many existing BeOS products implement? Don't you think maybe a standard Haiku version of those widgets would help keep a consistent GUI look and feel instead of allowing every developer to write his own?

You really do not seem to get the gist of what is being said here - instead you see/hear "Zeta" and decide its' evil.

The whole "Oh Noes! Zeta is illegal!" discussion has become greatly off-topic in every BeOS/Haiku related discussion now. There are plenty of screenshots out there of BeOS/Haiku apps running in Zeta - that doesn't make them all "tainted". If anything, it proves that binary and source compatibility between BeOS/Zeta/Haiku is excellent, and we should rejoice that such a large application base already exists for all 3 of these OSes.

Update: Also regarding your BONE rant earlier - I guess you ALSO probably missed the fact that Haiku implements a very BONE-like netstack, and will most likely be binary-compatible with net_server and BONE (and probably Zeta's netstack) alike - so all those "BONE ONLY" apps will probably work fine in Haiku eventually. BONE really was a major improvement to the netstack (and some other kernel functionality) that allowed many apps to be written/ported and work when they otherwise wouldn't have been able to. So, if given the choice between having an app that requires BONE, or not having the app at all, it would seem pretty clear to me what I would choose.

Edited 2007-04-18 21:46

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: Look at the screenshots...
by Steven on Sat 21st Apr 2007 01:41 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Look at the screenshots..."
Steven Member since:
2005-07-20

Given the severely illegal status of Zeta, as dictated by Access, I wouldn't want a single pixel from Zeta to get anywhere NEAR Haiku! Tainted code taints EVERYTHING! It's like GPL! Even worse!

Oh come on now, how much can you possibly exaggerate? This is nothing like GPL... I mean, for one thing, we can all agree we would much rather use Illegally obtained code for our projects than subject ourselves to the GPL.

It seems to me that Luposian totally blew things out of proportion here, comparing things to the GPL is like comparing someone to Hitler, it's just not cool man! Be realistic!

Reply Score: 1

All That's needed
by blitze on Thu 19th Apr 2007 00:53 UTC
blitze
Member since:
2006-09-15

Is compliance with Open Document standards but the rest can be done the BeOS/Haiku way.

Build the tools to take advantage of the OS but make sure they support formats that are cross platform. That is what Haiku needs from anything created for it.

Reply Score: 2

Excellent idea, but lots of work...
by JacobMunoz on Thu 19th Apr 2007 01:26 UTC
JacobMunoz
Member since:
2006-03-17

...and BeOS has always been lots of work. But that's what makes it so nice.

Ideally, OO.o would be great of course - but since no Be-related group is in charge of its development, porting it is simply not worthwhile. But those that aren't really familiar with BeOS don't understand the translation, media, game, input, and other server systems which provide the missing-and-much-sought-after functionality in Linux/BSD/etc. We have o need for KDE or Gnome or whatever else seems to be fashionable this year (many of us Be users actully think the whole situation is somewhat comical - JUST PICK ONE DANG IT!).

What may seem to be compatability limitations to outsiders can often be hidden secrets they don't get. BeOS/Haiku/Zeta has a responsiveness Linux and BSD can't remotely compare with, but once the corporate backing of BeOS came into question commercial software abandonded it - but the users knew better. We understood what we were working with, just as Amiga users stood by their investment. And while application performance may not be any faster (or may even run slower) - the fact that the user experience was never compromised overcame any statistical shortcoming you could come up with, because it FEELS faster where it counts.

No mysterious hard drive activity, superfast boot/shutdown, reliable filesystem, real plug-and-play, and when you click - it responds. Doesn't sound like a dead OS to me...

BeOS has 10% more love than the leading open OS. ;)

Reply Score: 3

lucky13 Member since:
2007-04-01

BeOS/Haiku/Zeta has a responsiveness Linux and BSD can't remotely compare with

I don't know what your benchmarks are for such a statement, but I have excellent -- if not superior -- "responsiveness" using Linux on the same hardware which I ran BeOS. That's apples:oranges now because the difference comes down to continued development and improvements in Linux and stagnation with BeOS development.

And it also begs the question of which distro and configuration are you comparing BeOS/et al? Linux distros aren't monolithic with respect to how they load and operate -- each is unique, and there's a lot of diversity in how users set up systems. "Stripped" distros like DSL and Vector run a lot faster and more efficiently than something bloated up with eyecandy and bulkier apps and libs. Are you comparing KDE/Gnome to BeOS? Or are you comparing something that's actually on par with BeOS/Haiku?

Reply Score: 1

Office Suite???
by @@__@@ on Sat 21st Apr 2007 20:41 UTC
@@__@@
Member since:
2005-07-29

Since Firefox runs on Haiku you already have an office suite: docs.google.com

Even big companies are using it, so why not the 0.003324% of the world that uses Haiku?

Reply Score: 1

RE: Office Suite???
by lucky13 on Sun 22nd Apr 2007 14:00 UTC in reply to "Office Suite???"
lucky13 Member since:
2007-04-01

Since Firefox runs on Haiku you already have an office suite: docs.google.com

I can think of three good reasons not to:
(1) security
(2) reliability
(3) no guarantee of availability.

See:
http://lucky13.blogsavy.com/2007/04/01/risk-and-hosted-applications...

...so why not the 0.003324% of the world that uses Haiku?

Your 0.003324% is about 200k people. Stop exaggerating. It's not even half that.

Reply Score: 1