Linked by Eugenia Loli on Fri 27th Apr 2007 07:14 UTC
Microsoft "Microsoft Corp. posted a 65 percent rise in quarterly profit Thursday, topping Wall Street estimates thanks to better than expected demand for its new Windows Vista operating system." More here.
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Good for them but ...
by Budd on Fri 27th Apr 2007 07:32 UTC
Budd
Member since:
2005-07-08

...my question is: all machines waiting to be sold in the retail store having pre-installed Vista were counted too? Or is just what was sold as a retail copy? I definitely must check Vista one day to see what I have missed. But I'm in no hurry.

Edited 2007-04-27 07:32

Reply Score: 2

RE: Good for them but ...
by gdanko on Fri 27th Apr 2007 16:05 UTC in reply to "Good for them but ..."
gdanko Member since:
2005-07-15

I definitely must check Vista one day to see what I have missed. But I'm in no hurry.

I tried it yesterday and found myself thoroughly rankled. It is slow, klunky, and the pop-ups asking you "Do you want to do this?" drove me nuts. I will stick with W2K for Windows needs.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Good for them but ...
by christian on Fri 27th Apr 2007 16:55 UTC in reply to "RE: Good for them but ..."
christian Member since:
2005-07-06

My in-laws new machine has Vista, and while initially vaguely impressed (not as slow as I expected) it soon ate the UDF filesystem on a backup DVD I'd written for them with their photos on. Luckily, I had the files somewhere else and could recreate them. However, I'm going to stick with multi-session DVD-R instead of DVD+RW for backups (which I should have done anyway...)

Reply Score: 1

There is no information.
by cyclops on Fri 27th Apr 2007 07:34 UTC
cyclops
Member since:
2006-03-12

Monopoly product sells.

The more fun stuff is in the linked page http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2007/apr07/04-26Q3FY07ERPR...

particularly the "forward looking statements"

Reply Score: 5

But but...
by JohnX on Fri 27th Apr 2007 07:36 UTC
JohnX
Member since:
2005-11-06

I've read on slashdot that Microsoft was dying and Apple already has a 650% market share. How can this be possible?

I guess I need to start getting my tech news elsewhere.

Reply Score: 5

Very smooth launch
by ronaldst on Fri 27th Apr 2007 07:41 UTC
ronaldst
Member since:
2005-06-29

Vista is a very good product. A lot less problematic than XP.

I can't wait to see what decisions they take with Service Pack 1 later this year.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Very smooth launch
by raver31 on Fri 27th Apr 2007 07:54 UTC in reply to "Very smooth launch"
raver31 Member since:
2005-07-06

Vista is NOT a good product and there is definitely NO WAY it is less problematic than XP.

The only way sp1 can improve Vista is by changing the driver model, removing DRM, and cutting down on latency.
That is not going to happen.

You people who rushed out and bought it have no-one but yourselves to blame.


BTW - has anyone else noticed that zdnet seems to be nothing more than a Microsoft advertising agency ?

Edited 2007-04-27 07:55

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Very smooth launch
by Eugenia on Fri 27th Apr 2007 08:05 UTC in reply to "RE: Very smooth launch"
Eugenia Member since:
2005-06-28

>by changing the driver model

There is no real reason to be fully backwards compatible with the old model which was problematic.

>Vista is NOT a good product and there is definitely NO WAY it is less problematic than XP.

I didn't have any crashes or performance problems. I didn't like the UI or the absence of using Hotmail via pop3, but that's another issue.

>has anyone else noticed that zdnet seems to be nothing more than a Microsoft advertising agency ?

No. Thank you for noting. ;) ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Very smooth launch
by hollovoid on Fri 27th Apr 2007 11:26 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Very smooth launch"
hollovoid Member since:
2005-09-21

I agree, Ive been using Vista since Feb and really have had no issues with it that were actually microsofts fault. My creative card wasent workin too well at first, but read around and find someone not having too many problems with creative with vistas launch. Havent had any crashes, performance is not really noticably different from XP (though I admit with a dual core and over 2gb of ram nearly everything runs the same..)

Only Issue I can lement on, is that goddamn legitimacy check it does. nothing pisses me off more than purchasing a Microsoft OS for the first time since 98, and rebooting one day into my computer being locked saying the key is in use when I have the box in my hand. I was one irate screaming customer at the non english speaking rep I talked to. but they did straighten it out very quickly, so im good now..

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Very smooth launch
by twenex on Fri 27th Apr 2007 09:30 UTC in reply to "RE: Very smooth launch"
twenex Member since:
2006-04-21

has anyone else noticed that zdnet seems to be nothing more than a Microsoft advertising agency ?

Yes. Have YOU noticed that the person you were replying to is ronaldst, for whom the (Bill) Gates Infallibility Principle is a Law of Physics. You aren't going to change his mind* on that score (*charitably assuming he has one).

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Very smooth launch
by ronaldst on Fri 27th Apr 2007 12:14 UTC in reply to "RE: Very smooth launch"
ronaldst Member since:
2005-06-29

Vista is NOT a good product and there is definitely NO WAY it is less problematic than XP.

You may not find it a good product. But I do. Most people who use it on a regular basis find Vista good. It must be you(TM).

The only way sp1 can improve Vista is by changing the driver model, removing DRM, and cutting down on latency.
That is not going to happen.


Of course they're not going to happen as they are mostly political wants. No one cares. The driver model is fine. And DRM is there to stay. They'll be needed to watch our Blue-Ray and HD DVD movies later on. ;)

You people who rushed out and bought it have no-one but yourselves to blame.

Yet this only seems to affect people that have never used Vista. lol

BTW - has anyone else noticed that zdnet seems to be nothing more than a Microsoft advertising agency ?

I thought it was more like a GNULinux/Novell/Steven Nichols outfit.

Geez, if you want to troll at least have some substance.

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: Very smooth launch
by Pyra on Fri 27th Apr 2007 12:30 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Very smooth launch"
Pyra Member since:
2006-06-23

You obviously don't work as tech support for a windows oriented software company like I do, daily fielding dozens of complaints related to Vista use and performance.

"Most people" doesn't seem to include most people.

We try to get as many as we can back to xp and the only resistance we encounter is the fact that MS is locking people out of it at the retail level.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Very smooth launch
by sigzero on Fri 27th Apr 2007 12:43 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Very smooth launch"
sigzero Member since:
2006-01-03

Resistance is futile!

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Very smooth launch
by ronaldst on Fri 27th Apr 2007 13:18 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Very smooth launch"
ronaldst Member since:
2005-06-29

You obviously don't work as tech support for a windows oriented software company like I do, daily fielding dozens of complaints related to Vista use and performance.

"Most people" doesn't seem to include most people.


So it means that only people that work in the "windows oriented software company doing daily fielding dozens of complaints related to Vista use and performance" know what's out there, right?

We try to get as many as we can back to xp and the only resistance we encounter is the fact that MS is locking people out of it at the retail level.

You should try coming up with like real arguments. Unless your aim is to troll.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Very smooth launch
by archiesteel on Fri 27th Apr 2007 16:03 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Very smooth launch"
archiesteel Member since:
2005-07-02

So it means that only people that work in the "windows oriented software company doing daily fielding dozens of complaints related to Vista use and performance" know what's out there, right?


Err...and we're supposed to take *your* word over his? Explain us why?

When you say that "most people who use it on a regular basis find Vista good", what are you basing yourself on? Can you point us to user surveys to support this allegation? Otherwise, it seems that you are only spewing more pro-MS BS, as usual.

I know this much: Vista sucks when you only have 512MB, while Linux flies on the same machine, even when booting from a live CD.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Very smooth launch
by PlatformAgnostic on Fri 27th Apr 2007 17:41 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Very smooth launch"
PlatformAgnostic Member since:
2006-01-02

Try more RAM. It really does wonders.

Also, as to the Windows-oriented software company fielding complaints: Is it possible that people are having problems because your software is not written securely and therefore breaks under low-privilege access? Maybe your program does not include manifests specifying what rights are needed.

I'm not saying that this is your company's fault. When security is lax and everyone runs as admin, it's bound to be a problem once the screws are tightened. UAC is about alleviating some of the pain, but there is no real alternative here: apps need to be modified to not require unnecessary admin privileges. If you have a normal-priv app, then it SHOULD run the same on XP as on Vista.

On another note, it seems like System Integrators are really screwing up the game on making Vista machines... we hear too many stories of incompatible hardware and programs being loaded onto machines sold with Vista. I suspect that this is what is leading to all the crappy reviews.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Very smooth launch
by archiesteel on Fri 27th Apr 2007 18:27 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Very smooth launch"
archiesteel Member since:
2005-07-02

Try more RAM. It really does wonders.


Yes, I know. I'm still fuming over the fact that I was basically sold a crippled PC, and that Kubuntu worked so much better than Vista on the same hardware.

I have a hard time not seeing Vista as some sort of ploy to force people to upgrade.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Very smooth launch
by kaiwai on Fri 27th Apr 2007 17:22 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Very smooth launch"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

We try to get as many as we can back to xp and the only resistance we encounter is the fact that MS is locking people out of it at the retail level.


Interesting, you say you work for a Windows oriented software company (developing software for Windows) and you provide technical support; you say that you hear these complaints on Windows Vista.

Do you see the disconnect? Your company produces products for Windows, customers are complaining about problems with Windows Vista and obviously your software.

Who do you think is to blame? *ding* do you see that maybe there are incompatibilities and its YOUR responsibility as the organisation providing the software to update the software as to allow the end user to smoothly run the software on Windows Vista. Don't blame Microsoft for your companies lazy attitude to providing support for customers running Windows Vista.

Reply Score: 5

RE[5]: Very smooth launch
by trenchsol on Sat 28th Apr 2007 13:22 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Very smooth launch"
trenchsol Member since:
2006-12-07

I don't agree with that. Software should be compatibile with its prior version. I don't say that software written for NT4 must work, but software written for XP should work on Vista.

Microsoft neve cared enough for backward compatibility. They "trained" their users to accept incompatibility instead.

That is the main reason why I don't run Windows. I want to be comfortable and able to run new programs on older version of OS, as well as old programs on new version.
Computer is supposed to serve me, not the opposite.

Reply Score: 0

RE[6]: Very smooth launch
by andrewg on Sat 28th Apr 2007 16:52 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Very smooth launch"
andrewg Member since:
2005-07-06

You are right it should. Any program that received Windows XP certification - the previous version of Windows - from Microsoft will run.

The problem is that software using old unsafe API's will run on XP but are not XP certified. Quickbooks 2006 and prior are examples of this. They never bothered to fix their code using old deprecated API's for years after XP's release. It is not Microsofts fault that these types of applications won't run on Vista.

If the application was built for XP it will run on Vista. Microsoft did the right thing breaking compatibility for the sake of security.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Very smooth launch
by Laurence on Fri 27th Apr 2007 13:51 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Very smooth launch"
Laurence Member since:
2007-03-26

"

You may not find it a good product. But I do. Most people who use it on a regular basis find Vista good.
"

Who's "most people"? I've used it on a few completely different systems and at best it's 'ok' but at worst it's a painfully slow, memory hogging hunch-back system.

I'm not the greatest fan of XP, but I'd happily run XP over Vista any day (and I'd even find XP a pleasure in comparison).

That said, I'm sure one day Vista will be a beast of a system for home users

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Very smooth launch
by andrewg on Sat 28th Apr 2007 16:38 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Very smooth launch"
andrewg Member since:
2005-07-06

Who's "most people"? I've used it on a few completely different systems and at best it's 'ok' but at worst it's a painfully slow, memory hogging hunch-back system.

I bought a copy of Home Premium. Installed it on my AMD 3200 with 1 Gig Ram and an Nvidia 5200* (128Meg). Its not a fast system, but I had no problems with anything aside from Creative sound drives which I had to download from the site. The graphics worked well, the system is fast and responsive, I had no problem installing anything except for the Silver Lining Game** I installed :-

AVG anti-virus
JDK 1.6
NetBeans 5.5
OpenOffice 2.2
Firefox
Opera
Macromedia Studio
Navicat
Aptana
Adobe reader
DosBox
Filezilla
Doom 3
Chronicles of Riddick
Quake 4
others I forget

Initially I had the UAC come up to allow installing the software but I have not had it popup for months now. Vista has been a success for me. Others have not been so fortunate. But take a look at what happens when something as small as a Ubuntu 6 month refresh happens. You get all kinds of people complaining about not being able to install, hardware not found, etc, etc. Vista has been much better than that and its a huge improvement over XP.


* I have subsequently installed a 7600GT to play Quake4, Doom3, COR

** The problem was the 5200 does not have drivers from NVidia only drivers supplied by Microsoft. The new graphics card and Nvidia drivers did the trick.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Very smooth launch
by twenex on Fri 27th Apr 2007 23:50 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Very smooth launch"
twenex Member since:
2006-04-21

You may not find it a good product. But I do. Most people who use it on a regular basis find Vista good. It must be you(TM).

Right, which is why most of the press Vista is getting is overwhelmingly negative. Clearly, there is an anti-Microsoft conspiracy out to besmirch the name of The Greatest Software Company on the Planet.

And yet according to you and your confederate Tomcat, people use Microsoft products because they love them. You can't have it both ways.

Of course they're not going to happen as they are mostly political wants. No one cares. The driver model is fine.

Yes, when Gates Almighty says he should do something, It Must Be Done. But when anyone contradicts, they are expressing "political wants".

And DRM is there to stay. They'll be needed to watch our Blue-Ray and HD DVD movies later on. ;)

Only if you're fool enough to buy them.

Your posts should carry a Govt. Health Warning: "You won't know whether to cry or laugh yourself to death."

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: Very smooth launch
by TaterSalad on Fri 27th Apr 2007 13:17 UTC in reply to "RE: Very smooth launch"
TaterSalad Member since:
2005-07-06

BTW - has anyone else noticed that zdnet seems to be nothing more than a Microsoft advertising agency ?

No I haven't. What I have noticed on zdnet is that there are a lot more people promoting linux in those forums than there are Microsoft. If you look at it that way then zdnet is more of a linux advertising agency.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Very smooth launch
by archiesteel on Fri 27th Apr 2007 16:05 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Very smooth launch"
archiesteel Member since:
2005-07-02

Actually, all that means is that there are more people that are enthusiastic about Linux than about Windows. That is consistent with what I see myself every day. Most people use Windows because they have to (or think they have to), not because they like to. Most Windows users I know don't like the OS.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Very smooth launch
by aliquis on Sun 29th Apr 2007 15:27 UTC in reply to "RE: Very smooth launch"
aliquis Member since:
2005-07-23

Yeah, those "poor people" who "rushed out" and bought it and actually like it, poor poor them. They should have installed the latest shit linux-dist with shitty package management, outdated memory leaking applications, no games, ..., instead, those rules! That's why everyone uses them! Shit brown desktop ftw!

Reply Score: 1

RE: Very smooth launch
by Supreme Dragon on Fri 27th Apr 2007 16:47 UTC in reply to "Very smooth launch"
Supreme Dragon Member since:
2007-03-04

"Vista is a very good product."

It might be good if you run it on a mainframe, and don't care that MS owns the computer, not you.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Very smooth launch
by butters on Fri 27th Apr 2007 22:18 UTC in reply to "RE: Very smooth launch"
butters Member since:
2005-07-08

It might be good if you run it on a mainframe

What? Windows is non-existent in the mainframe world, where Linux dominates as much as Windows dominates the desktop. IBM has dozens of System Z mainframes in the field that are running over 10,000 Linux servers apiece. On System P, Linux is growing 6 times faster than AIX, and systems with at least one Linux LPAR average over 30 LPARs per system, 10 times the average for AIX-only systems. Linux is clearly the workload consolidation platform of choice.

Windows is only a good platform if you don't care about power-efficiency, cooling, floorspace, utilization, manageability, reliability, availability, and serviceability. So it's a decent desktop platform.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Very smooth launch
by ml2mst on Fri 27th Apr 2007 21:20 UTC in reply to "Very smooth launch"
ml2mst Member since:
2005-08-27

[q]Vista is a very good product. A lot less problematic than XP.[/p]

Yup and here is the proof:

http://kadaitcha.cx/vista/dogsbreakfast/index.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkeC7HpsHxo

And if you might encounter problems running Vista, this cute guy has the ultimate solution:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVbf9tOGwno&mode=related&search=

:-)

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Very smooth launch
by justin.68 on Sat 28th Apr 2007 13:03 UTC in reply to "Very smooth launch"
justin.68 Member since:
2006-09-16

I can't wait to see what decisions they take with Service Pack 1 later this year.

They'll decide to patch it up, that's what SP's are for.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Very smooth launch
by aliquis on Sun 29th Apr 2007 15:24 UTC in reply to "Very smooth launch"
aliquis Member since:
2005-07-23

Or rather what goes into the next version of Windows / "real longhorn".

Reply Score: 1

Woah!
by Anon on Fri 27th Apr 2007 07:44 UTC
Anon
Member since:
2006-01-02

Just goes to prove there's a lot of stupid people around.

(That or they just don't have any viable choice)

Reply Score: 1

RE: Woah!
by sappyvcv on Fri 27th Apr 2007 13:58 UTC in reply to "Woah!"
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

When in doubt, insult people you don't know.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Woah!
by ebasconp on Fri 27th Apr 2007 15:20 UTC in reply to "Woah!"
ebasconp Member since:
2006-05-09

I am not a Microsoft Fan (I run Kubuntu on my desktop machine), but I work for a company that develops Windows software.

Several friends of mine have moved back to XP SP2 after install and use several weeks their new Windows Vista.

I do not think Vista is a bad product, but I think the most people does not need (and do not like) the eye-candy features that comes with Vista.

My friends now run XP SP2 and they are happy because they have more free memory for their applications, more free graphical resources for their games and a more elegant and serious UI (the classical Windows look'n'feel).

Reply Score: 2

huh?
by matthekc on Fri 27th Apr 2007 08:20 UTC
matthekc
Member since:
2006-10-28

Dell just brought back xp! Everyone and their grandma complains if they bought vista. Every tech site on the internet says Vista is increasing demand for Linux and Apple.

Wait a second Bill bought how many copies of Vista!!!

Edited 2007-04-27 08:32

Reply Score: 4

RE: huh?
by JMcCarthy on Fri 27th Apr 2007 09:01 UTC in reply to "huh?"
JMcCarthy Member since:
2005-08-12

I don't understand your viewpoint.

Evidence has been clearly presented that Vista has been a relative success for Microsoft, yet you resort to childish quip like: "Wait a second Bill bought how many copies of Vista!!!"

1.) just because people are comfortable with XP and don't see a reason to upgrade to Vista, it doesn't say anything about its quality. I can't remember how long it was before I switched to the 2.6 series kernel in Linux, and how long it took to switch from FreeBSD 4.8.

2.) When numbers come into confrontation with thousands (sic) of blow-hard editors, the numbers win.

Edited 2007-04-27 09:03

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: huh?
by twenex on Fri 27th Apr 2007 09:27 UTC in reply to "RE: huh?"
twenex Member since:
2006-04-21

just because people are comfortable with XP and don't see a reason to upgrade to Vista, it doesn't say anything about its quality.

Maybe not, but if true, stories of increased Linux adoption because of Vista, Dell switching back to preloading XP, and queues of customers waiting to return copies of Vista, speak volumes. Volumes of volumes.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: huh?
by twenex on Fri 27th Apr 2007 09:34 UTC in reply to "RE: huh?"
twenex Member since:
2006-04-21

Evidence has been clearly presented that Vista has been a relative success for Microsoft,

If you're referring to this "evidence", no it hasn't. Microsoft gets its newest OS preinstalled on computers as a matter of course, and have you ever tried getting another one (even another version of Windows) installed instead?

So what you're doing is equivalent to saying "Cars have been a relative success for car makers, ergo GM must be doing well." Of COURSE cars are going to be a successful product for car makers, especially (for example) relative to toasters if they don't actually make toasters. And yet Toyota is now the largest car maker in the world, pushing GM out of first place, according to some reports.

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: huh?
by matthekc on Fri 27th Apr 2007 10:21 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: huh?"
matthekc Member since:
2006-10-28

I was mostly joking of course Mr. Gates didn't run out and buy a bunch of Vista copies. The strong sales stem from a number of factors. The xp to Vista coupons helped sell many copies of Vista(great marketing). The fact people know it is the platform for the next few years and MS will fix it's minor problems surely helps. Last it offers major improvements in security and aesthetics. In short I found it amusing to make fun of sales figures they are pretty dry stuff thought I'd lighten it up.

Edited 2007-04-27 10:25

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: huh?
by ThawkTH on Fri 27th Apr 2007 14:34 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: huh?"
ThawkTH Member since:
2005-07-06

Essentially giving something away is NOT great marketing...

It's a luxury, and one MS only has because of it's monopoly (or virtual monopoly depending upon who you are speaking to).

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: huh?
by matthekc on Sat 28th Apr 2007 05:32 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: huh?"
matthekc Member since:
2006-10-28

I think it was brilliant marketing they sold people something they never even had seen yet. It wasn't a free os it was a reduced price upgrade.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: huh?
by timefortea on Fri 27th Apr 2007 16:20 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: huh?"
timefortea Member since:
2006-10-11

Well I appreciate your attempt at lightening it up!

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: huh?
by tomcat on Fri 27th Apr 2007 21:27 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: huh?"
tomcat Member since:
2006-01-06

If you're referring to this "evidence", no it hasn't. Microsoft gets its newest OS preinstalled on computers as a matter of course, and have you ever tried getting another one (even another version of Windows) installed instead?

You seem to be using a strange new definition of "success"; wherein, a product is only a success if YOU approve of how it ends up in consumers' hands. You don't like Microsoft's lock on the desktop market so, in your mind at least, Vista isn't a "success" because consumers have no alternative.

While that may be interesting in your mind, the computer industry weighs the success or failure of a product based upon its market share and impact on the industry as a whole. Very clearly, Vista is on its way to replacing XP. This fact is supported in its sales numbers.

Look, if you don't like the reality shared by the vast majority of people (myself included), you might try inventing your own parallel reality where Windows is a failure and Linux/Mac reign supreme. Because that's the only way that your argument could hold any water.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: huh?
by twenex on Fri 27th Apr 2007 23:43 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: huh?"
twenex Member since:
2006-04-21

You seem to be using a strange new definition of "success", wherein a product is only not a success if people can choose other products. You like Microsoft's hold on the desktop market so, in your "mind" at least, Vista is a success because customers are forced into accepting it.

While that may be interesting in your "mind", industry weighs the success or failure of a product based on its market share in a free market relative to that of other product and impact on the industry as a whole - and on the latter subject, since noone in their right mind would implement software as buggy and as badly written as Vista, and since UNIX is the model followed by everyone else, Windows/Vista have no influence.

Vista is on its way to replacing XP. Microsoft supports its customers and "obsolete" products the way a noose supports a condemned man.

Look, if you don't like the reality shared by the vast majority of people (myself included), you might try inventing your own parallel reality where Windows and other enforced monopolies are a success and products which compete on their own merits are a joke. Because that's the only way that your argument could hold water.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: huh?
by Phloptical on Sat 28th Apr 2007 11:42 UTC in reply to "RE: huh?"
Phloptical Member since:
2006-10-10

MS counts Vista sales like satellite-radio counts subscription numbers.....inventive, to say the least.

I'd like to personally call shenanigans on the entire article. The fact that it's referenced from MS's own website should be a huge red-flag.

And someone show me a side by side comparison of pre-installed Vista, off the shelf Vista, and Vista PC's upgraded to XP. Yes, I said "upgraded".

Reply Score: 1

RE: huh?
by Laurence on Fri 27th Apr 2007 09:42 UTC in reply to "huh?"
Laurence Member since:
2007-03-26

Dell just brought back xp! Everyone and their grandma complains if they bought vista. Every tech site on the internet says Vista is increasing demand for Linux and Apple.

Wait a second Bill bought how many copies of Vista!!!


Think about how many copies of Vista Dell brought before they switched back to XP and also don't forget that while demand for OSX/*nix is increasing, the number of 1st time PC buyers is also increasing.

Reply Score: 2

RE: huh?
by aliquis on Sun 29th Apr 2007 15:32 UTC in reply to "huh?"
aliquis Member since:
2005-07-23

That's because Windows bashing is cool, of course everyone buys expensive macs which haven't got leopard yet, and of course all students, corporations and gamers are so longing for Leenucks to save them.

"Haha, look, i have a fat penguin in this window and a cat which chases the mouse pointer!! This sure beats WoW!"

Reply Score: 1

RE:
by Kroc on Fri 27th Apr 2007 09:07 UTC
Kroc
Member since:
2005-11-10

Hardly surprising, it's like the oil companies posting $4bn profits; it's not like anybody has any <em>real</em> choice over the matter when it comes to cars. The same is with Windows Vista.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]:
by sappyvcv on Fri 27th Apr 2007 14:02 UTC in reply to "RE:"
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

You are realling comparing freedom of choice for OSes to freedom of choice for cars? Wow, that's REALLY reaching dude.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]:
by Kroc on Fri 27th Apr 2007 16:26 UTC in reply to "RE[2]:"
Kroc Member since:
2005-11-10

No, freedom of choice of power for cars. You've got Oil, Oil or Oil, and that's about all that 99% of people are going to use. There is no choice in the motor industry. Electric cars, LPG, Gas and Fuel Cell cars have deliberately been put back, and made inconvienient and impractical.

Reply Score: 4

RE[4]:
by sappyvcv on Fri 27th Apr 2007 17:41 UTC in reply to "RE[3]:"
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

You're right.

That is not comparible to freedom of choice for OSes though.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]:
by Kroc on Fri 27th Apr 2007 17:57 UTC in reply to "RE[4]:"
Kroc Member since:
2005-11-10

No, it's comparable to freedom of buying a PC with your choice of operating system. Not OSes themselves, because there is choice there; but the majortiy is not going to buy a petrol car solely to immediately convert it to LPG. Having Vista on every new machine removes the practicality of choice from the majority. Why are there no car-lots that give you the option between LPG or Gas for each car? Why, because the oil companies have a monopoly very similar to Microsoft.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]:
by sappyvcv on Fri 27th Apr 2007 20:31 UTC in reply to "RE[5]:"
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

That's a poor analogy. You can build your own systems WITHOUT an OS for cheaper than it would cost to buy one that is pre-built and comes with Windows. This is not the case with cars.

Please stop trying to make this analogy. It doesn't work.

Reply Score: 2

Vista Performance
by ecmel on Fri 27th Apr 2007 09:43 UTC
ecmel
Member since:
2007-04-27

I disabled the following on Vista to improve performance and now I can't see any difference between XP and Vista performance vise:

1. SuperFetch
2. Defender automatic scan
3. Defrag automatic scan

Also, if you want Vista sleep as fast as XP you may disable Hibernate.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Vista Performance
by casuto on Fri 27th Apr 2007 11:27 UTC in reply to "Vista Performance"
casuto Member since:
2007-02-27

you're an id**t because Superfetch is the new memory managment in Vista and if you disable it then the performances will decrease!
Defrag runs in low I/O priority and it doesn't affect the system performances and so if you disable it then your performances will decrease because your Hard drive is not defragmented.

Edited 2007-04-27 11:34

Reply Score: 1

RE: Vista Performance
by walterbyrd on Fri 27th Apr 2007 11:58 UTC in reply to "Vista Performance"
walterbyrd Member since:
2005-12-31

But why even have Vista if you're just going to disable everything? Why not just use XP?

Reply Score: 5

RE: Vista Performance
by sappyvcv on Fri 27th Apr 2007 14:03 UTC in reply to "Vista Performance"
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

Why is this modded down? Honestly, give me one good reason.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: Vista Performance
by archiesteel on Fri 27th Apr 2007 16:09 UTC in reply to "RE: Vista Performance"
archiesteel Member since:
2005-07-02

Please stop complaining about moderation. It will even itself out eventually and then your comment will be meaningless.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Vista Performance
by sappyvcv on Fri 27th Apr 2007 17:45 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Vista Performance"
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

I honestly don't give a shit anymore. The moderation system here doesn't work for this site. Things only "even out" half the time.

Face it, most of the user base here is shit. The moderation is shit. It's akin to what slashdot was not so long ago. The mentality is sick.

Go ahead, mod this down rightfully so. At least I can make this post comfortably knowing that it will get modded down appropriately.

Edited 2007-04-27 17:48

Reply Score: 5

RE[4]: Vista Performance
by archiesteel on Fri 27th Apr 2007 18:13 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Vista Performance"
archiesteel Member since:
2005-07-02

Well in this case it's working, the OP's comment is at 1, which is normal. Considering it's not quite on topic, and gives advice which according to another poster is unwise, I fail to see what the issue was...

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: Vista Performance
by Almafeta on Sat 28th Apr 2007 12:03 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Vista Performance"
Almafeta Member since:
2007-02-22

You think it's rough on you? Try being someone who, after an objective and thorough search for a third-party OS, consciously chose Windows over all the other options. Try being someone who thinks artists should be able to get royalties for their work, and who thinks programmers should be able to make a living for their code.

I've been called a Nazi, a capitalist, a communist, a monopolist, an anarchist, a fascist, and a scientologist for having these positions. And that's just here; I've been called other things on other things that I can't say on a family-friendly forum.

Edited 2007-04-28 12:09

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Vista Performance
by factotum218 on Sun 29th Apr 2007 05:35 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Vista Performance"
factotum218 Member since:
2007-03-20

I agree with you. But Windows doesn't suit my needs. I don't have anything against the product at all. I don't have anything against any OS. I am pro-everything. A am anti-crusade all around as well. No one is right. I may be a fan of Linux on my desktop but like you and not like many other linux fans, I like to get out and get some air now and again and visit the real world

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Vista Performance
by ecmel on Fri 27th Apr 2007 16:41 UTC in reply to "Vista Performance"
ecmel Member since:
2007-04-27

All 3 services run low priority but generates enormous harddisk activity which also sucks battery.

Afterall superfetch is a new technology, may be in the future it will work better for me.

Regarding using XP, I simply liked aero. Isn't it enough reason?

Reply Score: 2

RE: Vista Performance
by Pratiz on Fri 27th Apr 2007 19:07 UTC in reply to "Vista Performance"
Pratiz Member since:
2005-07-12

I have got a "Slow" (for Vista) machine with core 2 duo and 1 gb ram. I have removed the following bugs/services

1) Aero effects
2) Indexing
3) All animation/themes
4) Defrag auto
5) Defender auto
6) SuperFetch and ReadBoost whatever
7) Sidebar
8) Back/restore

Vista now runs ok, but for some reason I can see a lot of HDD activity, does anyone know which "features" I need to disable/remove for this? I cannot understand why is my HDD is being trashed when I am doing nothing?


P.S. Yes, I know I should use XP but I am currently travelling, so will do a reinstall later.

Reply Score: 1

Profit != Sales
by sharper56 on Fri 27th Apr 2007 10:02 UTC
sharper56
Member since:
2007-04-27

I hate to break it to you guys but this articles just says that Microsoft's profits increased during the quarter, it says nothing about the sales of Vista.

Microsoft maintains a fairly large cash reserve ($29B down from $49B in 2003 http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/309852_software02.html ). This allows Microsoft to manipulate it's reported quarterly profits by releasing part of it's reserves to hide slumps in sales.

Further, for a large multinational like Microsoft, the ability to anticipate currency fluctuations allows it to repatriate foreign profits when it's most advantageous to the bottom line. A simple move like, delaying the claim foreign profits from the previous quarter to this quarter could easily account for 10% of the profit claimed in this quarter. (As an example the Euro moved from 1.2 to 1.35 just this quarter).

Edited 2007-04-27 10:03

Reply Score: 5

RE: Profit != Sales
by andrewg on Sat 28th Apr 2007 16:23 UTC in reply to "Profit != Sales"
andrewg Member since:
2005-07-06

This allows Microsoft to manipulate it's reported quarterly profits by releasing part of it's reserves to hide slumps in sales.

I am not sure how to take your comments. You speak like an authority yet you don't seem to how revenue is reported or even what it is. Please look up 'accrual accounting' and timeliness (GAAP).

Reply Score: 1

however
by matthekc on Fri 27th Apr 2007 10:28 UTC
matthekc
Member since:
2006-10-28

I will not personally use(on my machine) or endorse this operating system mostly because of personal views

Reply Score: 3

Bob
by brewmastre on Fri 27th Apr 2007 11:45 UTC
brewmastre
Member since:
2006-08-01

I am starting to think that there is a connection between Baghdad Bob (Iraqi Disinformation Officer) and Microsoft Bob. I think that MS Bob may be a real person that works within the MS Public Relations Dept. His only job is to spread overly optimistic news about MS and anti-alternate OS information to the media. "Vista is the greatest Operating System ever made. I keep hearing people talk about this 'Linux' thing, but I just want to assure you that it does not exist, and if it does, it certainly isn't usable."

Reply Score: 2

Fact and fiction
by moleskine on Fri 27th Apr 2007 12:53 UTC
moleskine
Member since:
2005-11-05

With any company the size of Microsoft, sifting through their accounts is smoke and mirrors unless you're an expert. What is R&D, what is marketing, what has been counted as a cost of sales? What has been counted as a hard sell, an instance of Vista running, as distinct from a forward licence that may not see a Vista install for years and perhaps never? Hundreds of millions or billions can be slushed around all these different pots and changed every year.

I'm not about to knock Vista, which may be excellent - I've only got as far as WinXP Pro. However, it's not hard to argue that Microsoft had to produce sparkling figures this time around or Wall Street would conclude Vista was a flop. These figures do not prove that Vista is a success or even tell us what the installed base is. Microsoft's spin, of course, is that they do: Vista is a success and the install base is robust and growing rapidly. Er, you decide.

If you want to know what the market really thinks, watch Microsoft's stock price over the next month or three.

Reply Score: 5

WTH?!
by cutterjohn on Fri 27th Apr 2007 12:58 UTC
cutterjohn
Member since:
2006-01-28

They sold that many new computer WITH Vista pre-installed AND/OR sold upgrades to that many people?!

From what I've seen around the net, most people who have Vista are MS dependent in some fashion-- I'd normally call them fanboys, but I don't think that MS really has any fans. Beyond those people, I've only seen comments from a few people that have in the past appeared to have no great ties to any OS, and those people have mainly said if you're a gamer stay FAR FAR FAR away from Vista as current drivers are half-baked at best, and Vista is an incredible resource pig on top of that.

Now, if we add in the fact that Dell is resurrecting XP sales, discount pricing elsewhere in the world(I've just love subsidising third world markets), and most large businesses are still sitting on the sidelines(expected, as it's better to let other be the guinea pigs) I can't help but wonder where these mythical sales came from.

(Most articles outright claim or strongly imply that most of the reported revenue came from Vista sales, apparently followed by Office sales...)

Reply Score: 0

Microsoft Profits
by TaterSalad on Fri 27th Apr 2007 13:23 UTC
TaterSalad
Member since:
2005-07-06

Why is it so hard to believe that Microsoft made a profit? That is their goal. I know some of you think that Microsoft can't *possibly* make a good product but from what I have used of Vista it actually was pretty good. The big hurdle now is for applications to be developed for it.

Reply Score: 4

Heh...
by Almafeta on Fri 27th Apr 2007 13:30 UTC
Almafeta
Member since:
2007-02-22

Looking at many of the assertions above, it's interesting how any and all good news for Microsoft can be immediately turned into "Internet proof" that Microsoft is actually on the verge of collapse.

Edited 2007-04-27 13:30

Reply Score: 4

RE: Microsoft Profits
by aGNUstic on Fri 27th Apr 2007 13:34 UTC
aGNUstic
Member since:
2005-07-28

I can believe it, the company, made a profit. Maybe not what they expected it, the profit, to be. Because it, the new-old operating system, was not exactly what the public wanted. They, the public, are getting much smarter and tired of marketing bovine waste.

Simply put the *nix family of operating systems, specifically OS X, Linux, BSD and even Solaris, are eating away at McSoft's profit line as-well-as outshining its current product line.

It does not matter how McSoft manipulates its figures it, the free market and people, will ultimately decide its fate.

Edited 2007-04-27 13:36

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Microsoft Profits
by TaterSalad on Fri 27th Apr 2007 14:13 UTC in reply to "RE: Microsoft Profits"
TaterSalad Member since:
2005-07-06

It does not matter how McSoft manipulates its figures it, the free market and people, will ultimately decide its fate.

And looking at Microsoft's rising profit the people are choosing Microsoft.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Microsoft Profits
by archiesteel on Fri 27th Apr 2007 16:14 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Microsoft Profits"
archiesteel Member since:
2005-07-02

Most of them don't know they have a choice. If you go to Future Shop in Canada, you can't choose anything else than Vista (unless you buy a Mac). Even the slightly older system, which would fly with XP, are now sold with Vista only.

There's no reason a modern OS should be that sluggish on 512 MB. The latest version of Ubuntu are virtually on par with Vista feature-wise, and they run a lot faster than MS's latest bloated OS.

Here's some numbers for you...

Booting into Vista on a 512MB Celeron: 2 minutes 35 seconds

Reinstalling Vista on that machine (to have the French version): up of 2 hours 30 minutes

Booting into Kubuntu from a *liveCD* on the same machine: 2 minutes 10 seconds.

Installing Kubuntu on that machine: a little over 30 minutes

Installing the French language pack on that machine: less than two minutes

Bloatware, through and through.

Reply Score: 3

tpaws
Member since:
2006-06-02

Taking a look at what is happening in the retail world is probably a better snapshot. Boil it all down, PC sales growth is much slower than expected. The market is growing, but the slowed significantly as most retailers attribute the slowed demand to consumer reluctance over Vista. Retailers are seeing consumers demand for XP rather than Vista, but it appears that only Dell has been able to repond so far.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/business/content/business/epaper/2007/...

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/business/20070404-1355-earns-cir...

http://www.physorg.com/news96796676.html

http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/0,1000000121,39286787,00.htm

Reply Score: 2

who cares about Vista
by alucinor on Fri 27th Apr 2007 14:29 UTC
alucinor
Member since:
2006-01-06

I don't care about Vista, what I do care about is the Win32 API. Now, I know from a developer standpoint it's a piece of convoluted trash, but it's the API that runs all the applications I need. That's what sells Windows, the ISVs apps, not the OS. But MS is pissing off their largest ISVs, IBM, Symantec, and Adobe, so I think a mass defection might be in the works.

All this money and their OS's feature set has parity with freeware (Linux). Wow, that company is efficient! >_<

Reply Score: 0

RE: who cares about Vista
by PlatformAgnostic on Fri 27th Apr 2007 17:58 UTC in reply to "who cares about Vista"
PlatformAgnostic Member since:
2006-01-02

I can see Adobe being important...and there are always little spats between Adobe and their Platform Vendors (it's not all roses with Apple).

What do IBM and Symantec produce for Windows?? As far as I can see, IBM produces management infrastructure (i.e. Tivoli) and some collaboration and office software that most of the world doesn't care about. Symantec provides tools to manipulate hardware and correct deficiences in Windows and Windows Users.

I can honestly say that I think the world would be better off if no Symantec product was ever necessary. With increased security (and, frankly, nannying) from Vista, hopefully no one will care if Symantec products fail to run on Vista. Except Symantec, who will sic the EU on Microsoft.

Reply Score: 2

It's deja vu all over again
by elsewhere on Fri 27th Apr 2007 14:55 UTC
elsewhere
Member since:
2005-07-13

Wow. Feels like I'm back in 2001/2002, and XP has just been released. People were forecasting the end of Microsoft. It's slow! It's bloated! The drivers don't work!

Vista, much like XP at release, is fine if you purchase a system with it preinstalled. It can be cumbersome, at least from what I've heard, for people installing or upgrading it themselves. I'm hardly a Microsoft apologist myself, but my new laptop came with Vista, and although I partitioned it for dual-boot and spend most of my time in Suse, Vista is perfectly usable and there's nothing in it that makes me miss XP for those times I have to use Windows. Of course, there's nothing that would make me race for an upgrade either... It just is what it is.

I won't deny that people are probably having issues, but I suspect the issues and prophecies of Microsoft's doom due to Vista are perhaps being blown a little out of proportion.

Microsoft has issues, to be certain, but Vista is symptomatic of them, not the cause. Despite Microsoft's best efforts, the desktop as an all-encompassing platform is simply losing relevance, however slowly. All the GUI effects in the world won't change that. So the question I would be asking if I were an MS shareholder is what exactly does Ballmer have planned for the next 5-10 years as they start to lose the leverage from their crown jewel in controlling the market?

Adding context to this topic, El Reg had an interesting analysis, refreshingly free of dogma and exploitation, concerning Microsoft's challenges and the fact that Ballmer may need to quietly step out the backdoor if the company is to continue growing in the years to come: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/04/26/microsoft_needs_a_gerstner/

Vista is short term, the whole thing is a carbon copy of XP in terms of market reaction, opinions and it's inevitable mathematically assured domination. The question is what does MS do now, where do they want to be tomorrow?

Just my 2c...

Reply Score: 5

RE: It's deja vu all over again
by timefortea on Fri 27th Apr 2007 16:30 UTC in reply to "It's deja vu all over again"
timefortea Member since:
2006-10-11

I completely agree, I had even started a comment titled "Deja Vu" until I saw yours...

Reply Score: 1

RE: It's deja vu all over again
by imstillatwork on Fri 27th Apr 2007 18:02 UTC in reply to "It's deja vu all over again"
imstillatwork Member since:
2007-03-22

Wow. Feels like I'm back in 2001/2002, and XP has just been released. People were forecasting the end of Microsoft. It's slow! It's bloated! The drivers don't work!

Vista, much like XP at release, is fine if you purchase a system with it preinstalled. It can be cumbersome, at least from what I've heard, for people installing or upgrading it themselves. I'm hardly a Microsoft apologist myself, but my new laptop came with Vista, and although I partitioned it for dual-boot and spend most of my time in Suse, Vista is perfectly usable and there's nothing in it that makes me miss XP for those times I have to use Windows. Of course, there's nothing that would make me race for an upgrade either... It just is what it is.


I completely agree! please see http://www.osnews.com/permalink.php?news_id=17677&comment_id=230083

I don't get people here. The lack of simple pattern recognition is disturbing.

I would not go out and upgrade, but my laptop came with home premium installed. I ran a clean install to get rid of toshibas junk and been extremely happy with vista ever since. It is LEAPS and BOUNDS better than XP was. I can't wait to see what useful things are changed when the First SP comes out.

Reply Score: 1

Microsoft Haters
by CrazyDude0 on Fri 27th Apr 2007 15:19 UTC
CrazyDude0
Member since:
2005-07-10

are dying inside their heart. What a bunch of losers.

There is a saying in India, Elephant Walks Dog Barks. The Stallman breed seems similar to me here. Microsoft Walks and GPL dogs Barks.

GPL Dogs are cyclops, raver31, twenex etc:)

Reply Score: 0

RE: Microsoft Haters
by archiesteel on Fri 27th Apr 2007 16:17 UTC in reply to "Microsoft Haters"
archiesteel Member since:
2005-07-02

It's quite ironic to hear you talk about hate, since you're one of the most hateful members of the Microsoft Defense Brigade...

Reply Score: 1

RE: Microsoft Haters
by twenex on Sat 28th Apr 2007 00:02 UTC in reply to "Microsoft Haters"
twenex Member since:
2006-04-21

There is a saying in India, Elephant Walks Dog Barks. The Stallman breed seems similar to me here. Microsoft Walks and GPL dogs Barks.

Then perhaps you should leave Indian philosophy to the Indian philosophers, since you quite clearly are incapable of understanding it.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Microsoft Haters
by factotum218 on Sat 28th Apr 2007 07:29 UTC in reply to "RE: Microsoft Haters"
factotum218 Member since:
2007-03-20

And Elephants are known to be large, slow moving and mourn their dead.
Dogs are fun an loyal

Well, from by personal experiences anyways. Reading is good and all, Ill give you that much.

Reply Score: 0

This is proof!
by bullethead on Fri 27th Apr 2007 15:37 UTC
bullethead
Member since:
2005-07-10

I have been saying this as a quad OS user. I use Windows, MAC, Linux and Solaris at home on a couple of machines. The FUD about Vista is exaggerated, due to some hatred and religious views Microsoft is deemed the devil.

In reality their new Vista OS is Wonderful. My advice is one of the wisdom of life, don't comment on anything unless you have experienced it yourself.

Militant exaggeration kills logic and reason. The proof is in the pudding.

Reply Score: 4

RE: This is proof!
by archiesteel on Fri 27th Apr 2007 16:19 UTC in reply to "This is proof!"
archiesteel Member since:
2005-07-02

I have used Vista, and I see no real reason to upgrade. I find it a resource hog, and the UAC is really annoying. To me, there are lots of better OSes out there, such as Ubuntu, OS X and OpenSolaris.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: This is proof!
by Derek on Fri 27th Apr 2007 17:41 UTC in reply to "RE: This is proof!"
Derek Member since:
2005-07-06

I agree. I have used it also.

After 5 plus years and billions of dollars, what do we have?

A new fancy gui?

Put your self in the shoes of Joe user. From his stand point thats all they really see.
Then to find after spending hundreds or more to upgrade we have things like driver/software problems?
After all these years of development.
Thats just ridiculous.
IMO Vista is way over rated.
Its sad that some people have no choice.
So its no wonder MS had a rise in profit.

Edited 2007-04-27 17:43

Reply Score: 2

RE: This is proof!
by twenex on Fri 27th Apr 2007 23:59 UTC in reply to "This is proof!"
twenex Member since:
2006-04-21

I have been saying this as a quad OS user. I use Windows, MAC, Linux and Solaris at home on a couple of machines. The FUD about Vista is exaggerated, due to some hatred and religious views Microsoft is deemed the devil.

In reality their new Vista OS is Wonderful. My advice is one of the wisdom of life, don't comment on anything unless you have experienced it yourself.


Ah, another "People love Microsoft because they make Great Products/There is a vast hate campaign conspiracy against Microsoft" dual-personality thread. The Ministry of Truth would be proud.

Reply Score: 3

Pre-orders?
by vondur on Fri 27th Apr 2007 17:34 UTC
vondur
Member since:
2005-07-07

I am pretty sure the large number of Vista Licenses would have been pre-ordered by the major PC makers in anticipation of perceived computer demand for Vista. I would imagine that someone like Dell may order millions of copies of Vista licenses in anticipation of higher sales, and I would also imagine that a Vista License costs more than an XP home or XP pro license. Lets see the numbers for next quarter.

Reply Score: 4

factotum218
Member since:
2007-03-20

Great, they made some money. Now if only they would learn how to use it effectively with their operating system development.
Personaly I don't feel that they are trying to market to consumers in the least bit. Their advertising and web presence is drab at best. I feel like they are saying. "Yeah, it's out *sound of potato chips being eaten* you will probably end up with it eventually."

Reply Score: 1