Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 30th Apr 2007 22:27 UTC, submitted by editingwhiz
Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu "Officially, Dell hasn't said a word yet about which Linux it will be preloading on its desktops and laptops. Several sources within Dell, however, have told DesktopLinux.com that Dell's desktop Linux pick is going to be Ubuntu. While unable to confirm this through official Dell channels, we have heard the same story now from several internal Dell sources. They tell us that the computer giant will be preinstalling the newly released Ubuntu 7.04. These systems will be released in late May 2007."
Order by: Score:
Ubuntu wins desktop Linux wars
by FreeGamer on Mon 30th Apr 2007 22:48 UTC
FreeGamer
Member since:
2007-04-13

If this is true, it will put Ubuntu in a near unassailable position of dominance in the desktop Linux arena. This is not necessarily a bad thing as it will force the industry to consolidate support for Ubuntu and perhaps focus the efforts of developers towards a major platform with the other distros having to fall in line [with Ubuntu technical decisions] in order to keep up.

Red Hat and Novell investors should be a bit worried.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Ubuntu wins desktop Linux wars
by DittoBox on Mon 30th Apr 2007 22:54 UTC in reply to "Ubuntu wins desktop Linux wars"
DittoBox Member since:
2005-07-08

Or...

This whole thing could be a total dud with few sales and in six months the project will quietly be put out to pasture.

Or there'll be a complete support nightmare and the thing gets ugly really fast.

Or you could be bang on...

Reply Score: 5

RE: Ubuntu wins desktop Linux wars
by w00dst0ck on Mon 30th Apr 2007 22:59 UTC in reply to "Ubuntu wins desktop Linux wars"
w00dst0ck Member since:
2006-02-01

I hope not.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Ubuntu wins desktop Linux wars
by flanque on Mon 30th Apr 2007 23:24 UTC in reply to "Ubuntu wins desktop Linux wars"
flanque Member since:
2005-12-15

This is not necessarily a bad thing as it will force the industry to consolidate support for Ubuntu and perhaps focus the efforts of developers towards a major platform with the other distros having to fall in line [with Ubuntu technical decisions] in order to keep up.


Isn't that completely against the philosophy and point of Linux, that is, to have choice rather than be hard handed into what one organisation believes is right?

I don't really know if I would trust Ubuntu of all groups to make technical decisions that the other distributions feel they need to just accept to keep up.

Reply Score: 3

miscz Member since:
2005-07-17

There's always place for a variety but mainstream market doesn't want too much of that. One distro dominance could force other major players to play along. I'd be glad if that distribution was Ubuntu, it seems to me consolidation of Debian derivatives would be way easier than Red Hat derivatives. Suse and Mandriva forked ages ago and had their own big ambitions while Ubuntu is just a spoon (? ;) ) of Debian.

Rise of even one alternative operating system is a good thing anyway, it will open a way for others since developers will have to take cross-platform design seriously. But this is a matter of years so I'll stop my fantasizing.

Reply Score: 4

rm6990 Member since:
2005-07-04

SUSE forked from Slackware, not Red Hat. SUSE just adopted RPM later on. In-fact, if I'm not mistaken, SUSE was started just under a year before Red Hat.

Reply Score: 5

systyrant Member since:
2007-01-18

They need commonality. If every distro is doing something different (even it that something is minor) it makes it harder for developers to support it.

However, I think the Linux community is doing a good job. I don't think the lack of commonality is the reason Linux isn't just taking off like wildfire. Probably more of just an excuse for developers.

(Yes I know that's a bit of a contradiction.)

Reply Score: 1

rm6990 Member since:
2005-07-04

However, I think the Linux community is doing a good job. I don't think the lack of commonality is the reason Linux isn't just taking off like wildfire. Probably more of just an excuse for developers.


Then why do commercial software devs develop for OS X but not Linux for the most part? They both have a similar number of users.

Reply Score: 2

Kabal Member since:
2005-07-09

Then why do commercial software devs develop for OS X but not Linux for the most part? They both have a similar number of users.


Because nobody buys software for linux ;)

Reply Score: 5

systyrant Member since:
2007-01-18

That's a good question and I don't know the answer. Maybe it's the GPL or lack of commonality. Then again maybe developers just don't want to support three OS's.

Reply Score: 1

Johann Chua Member since:
2005-07-22

Because maintaining versions for even just the handful of popular desktop distros isn't terribly cost effective for most proprietary products?

Reply Score: 2

RE: Ubuntu wins desktop Linux wars
by jaylaa on Tue 1st May 2007 00:48 UTC in reply to "Ubuntu wins desktop Linux wars"
jaylaa Member since:
2006-01-17

Yes, indeed. Those of us who have been using Linux for a few years have seen distros rise and fall in popularity. Whenever one gets popular many people would say, rightly so, that it would be just like the last distro du jour and fade in popularity as the next one takes it's place.

But we all assumed that as Linux got more popular it would reach a tipping point. And I suspected that whichever distro was lucky enough to be on top at that moment would be cemented at the top.

Looks like Ubuntu is it, for good or for bad.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Ubuntu wins desktop Linux wars
by mat69 on Tue 1st May 2007 08:47 UTC in reply to "Ubuntu wins desktop Linux wars"
mat69 Member since:
2006-03-29

It would somehow (!) be a bad thing.
Ubuntu lacks many important security features as some have commented on another Ubuntu news.
Imo you should be asked during installation if you want to install that additional security features there are existing.

So what security features does Fiesty have?

SELinux, ExecShield, ELFDH, RKMA, Smash Stack, etc. ?


AFAIK Ubuntu has only SELinux, but you are not asked if you want to run it.

Edited 2007-05-01 08:47

Reply Score: 1

apoclypse Member since:
2007-02-17

I think with that with such a huge push into the desktop market, Canonical and th Ubuntu devs should push for security. We need more user friendly firewall software, we need something like selinux. We don't want to get caught with our pants down when some other distro user decides that Ubuntu is evil or something and hacks some sort of exploit. That would not only tarnish Ubuntu's image, but also the OSS community in general. It would be Ubuntu's fault though since security should always take priority, especially in Linux which prides itself on its Unix heritage.

Edited 2007-05-01 15:13

Reply Score: 1

Silent_Seer Member since:
2007-04-06

Wait, it will be available for the desktop and that too from one manufacturer. A tiny, humble step.


Red Hat and SUSE are the distros of choice for enterprise still and will be so for a good time.

Standards are the only way to solve incompatibility problems. Don't worry, they will be here sooner or later because everyone ( developers, Linux foundation) realizes where the problems are. In the mean time let's congratulate one major PC supplier for taking the bold step and refrain from criticizing them for not choosing <someone's favourite> distro. They had to make a choice.

Reply Score: 1

That's too bad
by halfmanhalfamazing on Mon 30th Apr 2007 22:49 UTC
halfmanhalfamazing
Member since:
2005-07-23

Because I find Red Hat's offering to be superior.

Hey, at least Dell is preloading a Linux based OS though.

This is great!

Edited 2007-04-30 22:52

Reply Score: 5

RE: That's too bad
by psychicist on Mon 30th Apr 2007 23:24 UTC in reply to "That's too bad"
psychicist Member since:
2007-01-27

I don't think so. I have had more problems with Red Hat and Fedora than with Ubuntu/Kubuntu.

BTW I am a user of neither. For me nothing compares to the stability, speed and simplicity of Slackware and its ports such as Slackintosh, Armedslack, Alphaslack, Slack390 and my own for MIPSEL :-)

But at least Dell finally listens to its customers.

EDIT: The fact that I use neither doesn't mean that I don't install any distribution a user wants.


Edited 2007-04-30 23:36

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: That's too bad
by yak8998 on Tue 1st May 2007 09:40 UTC in reply to "RE: That's too bad"
yak8998 Member since:
2006-07-28

wait...MIPSEL? Like a port for MIPS?

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: That's too bad
by psychicist on Tue 1st May 2007 10:11 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: That's too bad"
psychicist Member since:
2007-01-27

Yes, that's right! I have received a Fu Long box from Lemote for a port of Slackware to Loongson. I have just started building the base packages using LFS instructions in a chroot under the Debian system that comes with the box.

I hope that I can directly boot the Slackware system when I am finished, but I am more concerned with building all packages for now.

I have optimised all packages for Loongson with -march=r4600 since I figured the last little-endian MIPS processors are very old ones used in DECstations and Cobalt I'd better optimise the hell out of it to make it run well.

I would be prepared to make ports for big-endian MIPS as used in SGI machines or PA-RISC as well but I cannot find or afford those with reasonable processor speed so if someone sends me some I will do those as well.

You can run Debian, Gentoo or a recompiled Slackware on older processors though.

Edited 2007-05-01 10:19

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: That's too bad
by Silent_Seer on Tue 1st May 2007 20:06 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: That's too bad"
Silent_Seer Member since:
2007-04-06

Hats off to open source for accomodating all that was before and all that is.

Are their native apps (SGI, DECstation etc)available under linux (and are free or compiled for MIPS)? I am asking that because vendors like SGI now support linux.

Unless these machines are no longer used for their former purposes. So is there a repo for apps like openoffice for these platforms? Just asking out of curiosity.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: That's too bad
by yak8998 on Wed 2nd May 2007 06:34 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: That's too bad"
yak8998 Member since:
2006-07-28

I still run IRIX on my SGIs, but I know gentoo and BSDs can run on there and be very usable (I think slack and debain are the other 2 popular choices).

Keep your eyes open for higher end indys, they're going for dirt cheap nowadays. If you need compile help/speed, drop me an email, I have a 8cpu origin 2000 rack with a few gigs of RAM that should tear thru compiling once I get it running properly.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: That's too bad
by psychicist on Wed 2nd May 2007 09:39 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: That's too bad"
psychicist Member since:
2007-01-27

I still run IRIX on my SGIs, but I know gentoo and BSDs can run on there and be very usable (I think slack and debain are the other 2 popular choices).


It would be very nice to be able to run IRIX but unfortunately I have never been able to afford an SGI machine. Even on auction sites people ask too much for older SGIs that will compile very slowly.

And looking at second hand Fuel and Tezro machines I can conclude those are completely out of reach from what I have seen. Maybe you can tell me where I could find a suitable machine for now.

Keep your eyes open for higher end indys, they're going for dirt cheap nowadays. If you need compile help/speed, drop me an email, I have a 8cpu origin 2000 rack with a few gigs of RAM that should tear thru compiling once I get it running properly.


If you could get me an account on that machine I would appreciate it very much. And of course I could assist you if you want to help me compiling the software.

Does IRIX have virtualisation such as VMware or Xen? That would make it a lot easier to get things up and running side-by-side otherwise the system will have to be compiled in a chroot while running on another Linux system, probably Debian.

Thanks for your offer to help and tell me what you think about it. Slackware has the potential to be as portable as Debian and Gentoo with even higher stability and today's fast hardware makes it only easier to get it up and running.

BTW do you know where or how to get reasonably fast Alpha and PA-RISC machines that are not too expensive? I live in the Netherlands and cannot easily find those on the internet.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: That's too bad
by psychicist on Wed 2nd May 2007 09:19 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: That's too bad"
psychicist Member since:
2007-01-27

Hats off to open source for accomodating all that was before and all that is.


That's the reason that I have been able to get basic Slackware running on the processor/machine in only the last six days.

Are their native apps (SGI, DECstation etc)available under linux (and are free or compiled for MIPS)? I am asking that because vendors like SGI now support linux.


As far as I know most of the unique interesting things that run on those machines are closed source applications for Ultrix but all other open source can of course be recompiled for Linux.

SGI MIPS processors are supposedly big-endian and the Loongson processor is a little-endian MIPS III (and extensions) compatible processor. So that would need its own MIPS port. But it wouldn't be very difficult to do, especially after getting this MIPSEL port done.

Unless these machines are no longer used for their former purposes. So is there a repo for apps like openoffice for these platforms? Just asking out of curiosity.


The box runs a Chinese version of Debian at the moment and it runs GNOME and includes OpenOffice.org 2.0.4, Sun Java and all other software you have got used to from Linux except architecture specific closed-source software such as Flash and codecs, which should be banned in this modern day and age of multi architecture software.

Lemote will send me the patch that has enabled OpenOffice.org 2 to run on MIPS. Then I will probably try to build OpenOffice.org 2.2 for Loongson. But I'm putting that off until I get Slackware completely up and running.

Reply Score: 1

RE: That's too bad
by butters on Tue 1st May 2007 06:35 UTC in reply to "That's too bad"
butters Member since:
2005-07-08

You have to define superior. Fedora seems to have more features (security, management, etc.) and polish (in some areas), but Ubuntu has better package management and a stronger community. I bet that the community aspect was among the top considerations that Dell made, given that they do not want to provide commercial support for Linux.

Ubuntu has the ingredients to be a better distribution than any other, but with a full-time staff of a few dozen, they're limited in what they can actually accomplish. With some gravy from Dell, that could all change.

Shuttleworth said there were going to be two major announcements this week. I guessed Sun and Dell partnerships. It looks like one will come true. If the other does, then things are really looking up for Ubuntu.

Reply Score: 3

RE: That's too bad
by unoengborg on Tue 1st May 2007 13:16 UTC in reply to "That's too bad"
unoengborg Member since:
2005-07-06

I tend to agree with you that Red Hat is a better OS, but from a business perspective I think Ubuntu is a better choice. Many of Dell's potential Linux customers will not afford the prices of a Red Hat subscription, and going the Red Hat road would result in less buyers.

Besides, if Dell runs Ubuntu, they will most likely run Red Hat as well, and I imagine we will see more Linux vendors than Canonical to certify their Linux versions to run on these boxes.

The important thing is that somebody like Dell actually ships boxes with Linux preinstalled and fully supported. This makes a very loud signal to hardware vendors to pay more attention to the Linux market.

Now if only HP and Lenovo could follow Dells example. If they do, I hope they will go for Ubuntu as well even if Ubuntu isn't my favorite distro. Having one dominating desktop Linux flavor would make it easier to convince companies like e.g. Adobe or Autodesk to port their software to Linux and that is more important in the long run than having boxes shipping with my favorite Red Hat. Linux distros tend to get more and more alike these days anyway, so I can probably learn to live with Ubuntu too.

Reply Score: 2

Linspire
by PLan on Mon 30th Apr 2007 23:08 UTC
PLan
Member since:
2006-01-10

Were Linspire PCs a huge success ? Will Ubuntu be any more popular (perhaps among enthusiasts) ? Time will tell I suppose.

Reply Score: 2

$$$
by dcwrwrfhndz on Mon 30th Apr 2007 23:10 UTC
dcwrwrfhndz
Member since:
2006-05-26

I'm looking forward to see how prices of the same product with different OSs compare.

Reply Score: 3

RE: $$$
by B12 Simon on Tue 1st May 2007 10:18 UTC in reply to "$$$"
B12 Simon Member since:
2006-11-08

Absolutely. What this offers to buyers who aren't fans of Ubuntu is the chance to buy Dell without the dreaded Windows tax.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: $$$
by JCooper on Tue 1st May 2007 10:43 UTC in reply to "RE: $$$"
JCooper Member since:
2005-07-06

How long until MS cries unfair to this, stating it will encourage Windows piracy etc etc... (you know, the Vista that can't be pirated)

I'm looking forward to the announcement though, Ubuntu shipped on Dell boxes will be a great step forward!

Edited 2007-05-01 10:43

Reply Score: 3

Is this really necessary?
by Jawbreaker4Fs on Mon 30th Apr 2007 23:11 UTC
Jawbreaker4Fs
Member since:
2006-05-11

Anyone who wants to install Ubuntu on a Dell machine can do so pretty easily. Anyone who doesn't have any urge to use Linux as their primary OS is going to stick with Windows. This is, however, a great step in terms of support. I've been running Ubuntu on my Inspiron 6000 for the past 3 years or so, and I've only had one hardware related problem. The Dell tech support people wanted me to boot into their diagnostic utility located on some obscure HDD partition (which I'd deleted), and they told me they could only offer support for Windows. If Dell supports any kind of Linux, this will be great for hardware support. If this product line falls flat on its face, well... there's always System76.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Is this really necessary?
by FooBarWidget on Tue 1st May 2007 07:32 UTC in reply to "Is this really necessary?"
FooBarWidget Member since:
2005-11-11

No they can't. Look at the huge number of people complaining that their video card/monitor/wifi isn't correctly detected. Having Ubuntu preinstalled will guarantee that all hardware is compatible.

Reply Score: 3

A new product launch...
by hhcv on Mon 30th Apr 2007 23:12 UTC
hhcv
Member since:
2005-11-12

With Ubuntu making substantial improvements every three months, will Dell always sell their laptops with the latest version? Or will they stick with the same distro for a while (for support reasons) and everyone will end up reformatting the thing again!?

You know what? Don't preload Linux, just sell me something which is 100% compatible.

Reply Score: 4

RE: A new product launch...
by Vlad on Mon 30th Apr 2007 23:22 UTC in reply to "A new product launch..."
Vlad Member since:
2006-03-23

It's unlikely Dell will be able to keep up with the rigorous development pace. I also doubt they'll offer OS *support* beyond basic hardware compatibility. The notion that *new* hardware will ever be 100% compliant with Linux is a pipe dream for the foreseeable future (and not Dell's fault, either.)

The single most important outcome of Dell offering Ubuntu (along with RHEL I believe) is that this *will* put pressure on hardware vendors to be more considerate of Linux. The outcome of this is a win for all linux users regardless of their distro of choice.

Reply Score: 5

RE: A new product launch...
by wyth on Tue 1st May 2007 01:01 UTC in reply to "A new product launch..."
wyth Member since:
2005-12-28

I wouldn't be surprised if Dell offers the LTS versions.

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: A new product launch...
by butters on Tue 1st May 2007 06:37 UTC in reply to "RE: A new product launch..."
butters Member since:
2005-07-08

SJVN said Ubuntu 7.04 (Feisty), for what it's worth.

Reply Score: 2

RE: A new product launch...
by rm6990 on Tue 1st May 2007 02:16 UTC in reply to "A new product launch..."
rm6990 Member since:
2005-07-04

s/three months/six months

Reply Score: 2

RE: A new product launch...
by ohbrilliance on Tue 1st May 2007 04:15 UTC in reply to "A new product launch..."
ohbrilliance Member since:
2005-07-07

I'm all for pre-loading - whatever distro they go with, it'll be proof-of-concept that the machines support Linux. Don't like the distro? Format the disk and install your distro of choice.

Reply Score: 2

RE: A new product launch...
by Harald_Jensas on Tue 1st May 2007 07:10 UTC in reply to "A new product launch..."
Harald_Jensas Member since:
2007-03-20

When you get an OEM installed Windows system you need to run windows update to be on the latest version as well. An Dell and other OEM's always spend some time testing before it will start to ship systems with new servicepacks when they are released for Windows.

With almost any Linux distribution today it is quite easy to upgrade to the latest release. With Ubuntu an upgrade to a later relese can be done by using the graphical update utility. Launch it with the -c option like this:

gksu “update-manager -c ”

And it will present you an option to upgrade to the latest release. E.g NO need to reformat and reinstall.


Also, I suspect that if this become a success for Dell then Dell will probably get involved in Ubuntu development. Testing as development work on the "next release" is in progress. Hopefully Dell can post patches to fix issues with Dell hardware compability as development is progressing. And the result is a quick test period to verify/certify the new release and then ship to customers.


Looking forward to an official announcment! ;)

Reply Score: 2

Kokopelli
Member since:
2005-07-06

At least for the first pass. Most people who will be buying the first systems will be existing Linux users. So chances are they will wipe and install their preferred distro as soon as they got it.

I think the Linux distribution used is not as important as the fact that the hardware will be chosen such that all the parts work in Linux.

Reply Score: 2

dell support.
by qwerty2k on Mon 30th Apr 2007 23:24 UTC
qwerty2k
Member since:
2007-04-08

surely it would make sense for dell to wait til the next LTS version of ubuntu then offer that to consumers?

Reply Score: 1

RE: dell support.
by Supreme Dragon on Tue 1st May 2007 00:06 UTC in reply to "dell support."
Supreme Dragon Member since:
2007-03-04

"surely it would make sense for dell to wait til the next LTS version of ubuntu then offer that to consumers?"

People need an alternative to Vista NOW, they have suffered enough.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: dell support.
by rm6990 on Tue 1st May 2007 02:24 UTC in reply to "RE: dell support."
rm6990 Member since:
2005-07-04

Yes, because they will sit down on a Linux computer and all will be solved, correct?

That is, until they buy some perephrial that doesn't work with Linux and the computer ends up with either a retail or pirated version of Windows on it a few days later. Or they try to play DVDs and have to compile libdvdcss, which for me is easy enough but which is far from easy for joe user.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: dell support.
by Supreme Dragon on Tue 1st May 2007 02:52 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: dell support."
Supreme Dragon Member since:
2007-03-04

"That is, until they buy some perephrial that doesn't work"

The same can be said about Vista.

"Or they try to play DVDs and have to compile libdvdcss, which for me is easy enough but which is far from easy for joe user."

Linspire sells DVD software:

http://www.linspire.com/lindows_dvd_info.php

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: dell support.
by rm6990 on Tue 1st May 2007 04:17 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: dell support."
rm6990 Member since:
2005-07-04

According to the page you just linked to, Linspire's DVD software requires Linspire 4.5 and up. I know it may have been easy to miss the fact we're talking about Ubuntu here. I mean, it is ONLY in the title of the story and plastered all over the summary and all.

As for the Vista/periphreal thing, touche. That is a good point.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: dell support.
by lemur2 on Tue 1st May 2007 04:24 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: dell support."
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

{According to the page you just linked to, Linspire's DVD software requires Linspire 4.5 and up. I know it may have been easy to miss the fact we're talking about Ubuntu here. I mean, it is ONLY in the title of the story and plastered all over the summary and all. }

Linspire, Canonical, Freespire, Ubuntu join forces

http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS7103672739.html

Edited 2007-05-01 04:25

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: dell support.
by rm6990 on Tue 1st May 2007 04:35 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: dell support."
rm6990 Member since:
2005-07-04

I apologize. I thought CNR wasn't going to be supported on Ubuntu until 7.10. My mistake.

Anyways, just curious, anyone given CNR on 7.04 a shot yet (if it's available)? How does it work?

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: dell support.
by Supreme Dragon on Tue 1st May 2007 04:38 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: dell support."
Supreme Dragon Member since:
2007-03-04

"According to the page you just linked to, Linspire's DVD software requires Linspire 4.5 and up. I know it may have been easy to miss the fact we're talking about Ubuntu here. I mean, it is ONLY in the title of the story and plastered all over the summary and all."

The software is sold through CNR, and will soon be available on multiple distros, including Ubuntu.

http://www.cnr.com/press.html

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: dell support.
by lemur2 on Tue 1st May 2007 04:20 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: dell support."
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

{Or they try to play DVDs and have to compile libdvdcss}

It is already all pre-compiled for you.

Here: http://medibuntu.sos-sts.com/

Reply Score: 1

Ubuntu
by islander on Mon 30th Apr 2007 23:42 UTC
islander
Member since:
2007-04-11

I hope it succeeds!

My only worry that Linux wont be advertised on its own merits but trying to make it look like the affordable ( cheap ) Mac Os or the Windows thats better than Windows.

Reply Score: 3

Ubuntu not well-tested enough
by PlatformAgnostic on Mon 30th Apr 2007 23:57 UTC
PlatformAgnostic
Member since:
2006-01-02

What I gather from my own (brief) experience and many of the reviews I've read, Ubuntu's release schedule does not permit complete testing of their distro. And if it's not tested, then it's probably broken.

Support is also going to be a nightmare. Does Dell support people who install third-party (potentially illegal) stuff from the Restricted and Universe repositories? Does Dell support it if the Ubuntu folks break a serious number of machines with a point update? I just don't think Ubuntu is disciplined enough as an engineering team. Debian might be better (especially with all the news we're seeing here).

Reply Score: 5

RE: Ubuntu not well-tested enough
by qwerty2k on Mon 30th Apr 2007 23:59 UTC in reply to "Ubuntu not well-tested enough"
qwerty2k Member since:
2007-04-08

which is why above i suggested they use ubuntu long term support release (the next one which is supposedly gutsy+1). it is then supported and maintained for 5 years if i remember correctly.

Reply Score: 3

RomeReactor Member since:
2007-01-18

If memory serves, the support cycle for LTS is 3 years on the desktop and 5 on the server, if Dapper is any indication. I think this provides a very good opportunity for _all_ the prominent Linux OS's, not just Ubuntu. It will then be a matter of seeing if Dell's project comes to fruition. Mainly one of two things will happen: either it DOES take off (which, as i said, would be beneficial for Linux in general) or it DOESN'T, and we're back to where we are.

Oh, and also:
"...though being a Ubuntu User its pretty Buggy if i say so myself so IMO this would be a stupid move by Dell if they were to do that".

I think Michael Dell pretty much knows what he's doing; after all, he's the one running his company, not us.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Ubuntu not well-tested enough
by smitty on Tue 1st May 2007 00:00 UTC in reply to "Ubuntu not well-tested enough"
smitty Member since:
2005-10-13

I doubt Dell is going to support it at all. There will probably be a big warning about how the only support available for this OS is from the community.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Ubuntu not well-tested enough
by roger64 on Tue 1st May 2007 06:54 UTC in reply to "Ubuntu not well-tested enough"
roger64 Member since:
2006-08-15

I think you are too pessimist on this. It's easy enough to tune a system for one computer and then set up a restauration CD. I am pretty sure Canonical and Dell have been doing just that.

After that, if people want to fiddle with their system, they have a strong community to help them, and if something gets wrong, they can use their restauration CD.

Reply Score: 1

Outstanding!
by Supreme Dragon on Mon 30th Apr 2007 23:59 UTC
Supreme Dragon
Member since:
2007-03-04

Dell customers will soon have the option of having a quality OS installed, and that will have a great effect on Linux marketshare. Software developers should be making Linux versions of their software, or risk losing customers.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Outstanding!
by rm6990 on Tue 1st May 2007 02:21 UTC in reply to "Outstanding!"
rm6990 Member since:
2005-07-04

Dell preinstalling Linux isn't going to result in hordes and hordes of new converts. Dell will still offer Windows XP/Vista on all of their computers, and the vast majority of people will simply pick Windows in the OS selection menu.

Also, the words: "Dell recommends Windows Vista Ultimate" or whatever will still be plastered all over their site.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Outstanding!
by Supreme Dragon on Tue 1st May 2007 02:42 UTC in reply to "RE: Outstanding!"
Supreme Dragon Member since:
2007-03-04

"Dell preinstalling Linux isn't going to result in hordes and hordes of new converts."

The release of Vista, Dell pre-installing Linux, and Linux distros that get better every day, will result in a steady increase in Linux marketshare, at Windows expense.

"Also, the words: "Dell recommends Windows Vista Ultimate" or whatever will still be plastered all over their site."

That will not stop many people from buying computers pre-installed with Linux:

http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=39237

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Outstanding!
by rm6990 on Tue 1st May 2007 04:09 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Outstanding!"
rm6990 Member since:
2005-07-04

I've been hearing for years that Linux will steadily decrease Windows' marketshare, yet thusfar the results haven't exactly been major. The dent Linux has caused in Microsoft's marketshare is about as damaging as a slight rounding error, and Microsoft is raking in record revenues and profits. In-fact, Vista, which is allegedly pushing everyone to Linux, caused Microsoft to beat their own guidance profit-wise to the tune of half a billion dollars, which is no chump change, even for Microsoft. Of course, arguing about what will happen is kind of pointless. Let's just wait and see.

Of course, I can't help but be skeptical, considering every single year since the late 90's has been "the year of the Linux desktop", when nothing has really changed.

Reply Score: 4

RE[4]: Outstanding!
by Supreme Dragon on Tue 1st May 2007 04:32 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Outstanding!"
Supreme Dragon Member since:
2007-03-04

"I've been hearing for years that Linux will steadily decrease Windows' marketshare, yet thusfar the results haven't exactly been major."

Vista is a market changing product, software that bad can't maintain Microsoft's monopoly. Linux desktop usability is better than ever, while Vista is pathetic.

"In-fact, Vista, which is allegedly pushing everyone to Linux, caused Microsoft to beat their own guidance profit-wise to the tune of half a billion dollars,"

Did you read the link I posted? If you did, you would have read this:

"A lot of the 65 per cent rise in Microsoft's Q3 revenues was brought forward from the previous quarter and is related to a coupon scheme it funded."

http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=39237

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Outstanding!
by rm6990 on Tue 1st May 2007 04:52 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Outstanding!"
rm6990 Member since:
2005-07-04

Vista is a market changing product, software that bad can't maintain Microsoft's monopoly. Linux desktop usability is better than ever, while Vista is pathetic.


XP pre-SP1 was an absolute piece of garbage that should never have been released, and yet Microsoft is still dominant today.

In the corporate market, I'm not disputing Linux is becoming an attractive option. However, my side-job is doing computer repairs for home users, and 99% of my clients will run their XP computers until it is so unusable that it takes 15 seconds to even open the start menu due to all the spyware and viruses (the main cause is them not doing their updates and not updating their security software), and yet they flat-out refuse to even give Linux a test-run. It's as if they are addicted to Windows. A few glitches in Vista is simply not going to make people like this switch.

Based on my own experience, Linux does not stand a chance in the home market, and will, at best, be a niche competitor, much like OS X.

Also, OS X is increasing its marketshare in large part due to their large advertising campaigns. The only advertising I ever see for Linux is on geek websites that the majority of people don't visit, and is mainly for server solutions. Advertising is more important than most people think, and again, unless Linux gets a large advertising campaign like Apple's (which is unlikely, considering Apple spends more on advertising than Canonical has in cash-on-hand, Novell is hemmoraging cash and has always been horrible at marketing, and Red Hat doesn't seem to care much about the home user market), the situation won't change.

To ramble on a bit more, if Canonical was smart, they would take advantage of Youtube for viral marketing, but they haven't yet bothered to do that.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Outstanding!
by Supreme Dragon on Tue 1st May 2007 05:25 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Outstanding!"
Supreme Dragon Member since:
2007-03-04

"A few glitches in Vista is simply not going to make people like this switch."

Everyone won't switch, but enough will to put a significant dent in the MS monopoly. I expect Linux to get at least 10% marketshare in the next few years.

"Based on my own experience, Linux does not stand a chance in the home market, and will, at best, be a niche competitor, much like OS X."

Apple is a niche competitor because they force you to buy a Mac, Linux can be used on any computer.

"Advertising is more important than most people think, and again, unless Linux gets a large advertising campaign like Apple's, the situation won't change."

Linux has been getting much publicity, especially since the release of Vista. Linux popularity will continue to increase.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Outstanding!
by Stock on Tue 1st May 2007 07:28 UTC in reply to "RE: Outstanding!"
Stock Member since:
2005-08-31

What we need then is a company willing to sell OEM linux laptops and desktops only. Without any offerings of Windows. We recommend Ubuntu or Kubuntu should be plastered all over the site.

Reply Score: 2

Re: Ubuntu wins desktop Linux wars
by Sabz on Tue 1st May 2007 00:19 UTC
Sabz
Member since:
2005-07-07


Red Hat and Novell investors should be a bit worried

now why would redhat be worried? no one will beat redHat on Server market , Oracle tried an failed, correct me if im wrong, so did mandrake.Mandriva, they failed all Ubuntu may Win is Desktop , though being a Ubuntu User its pretty Buggy if i say so myself so IMO this would be a stupid move by Dell if they were to do that

Reply Score: 0

kragil Member since:
2006-01-04

now why would redhat be worried? no one will beat redHat on Server market


You sound like a IBM fanboy in the early nineties talking about Microsoft being buggy and nobody will ever use Windows on the server ;) Guess what ... Winning the desktop opens A LOT of doors.

Reply Score: 3

Sabz Member since:
2005-07-07

You sound like a IBM fanboy in the early nineties talking about Microsoft being buggy and nobody will ever use Windows on the server ;) Guess what ... Winning the desktop opens A LOT of doors.


im not a IBM fanboy, just telling it like it is, i use Ubuntu7.04 myself untill Fedora7 is final, an from my Point of Veiw is that Ubuntu is still to Buggy for the Desktop , IMO i think Fedora would be a better choice or Suse Ubuntu is like a newborn baby, still has its teething problems

Reply Score: 1

Buck Member since:
2005-06-29

Winning the desktop opens A LOT of doors.

That's what QNX (QSSL) didn't "get".

Reply Score: 2

Silent_Seer Member since:
2007-04-06

They didn't need to or rather didn't have the resources to win the desktop. They are happy with their niche, in expensive, reliable real time systems and we should wish them well.

Too crowded here anyway.

Reply Score: 1

Comment by big_gie
by big_gie on Tue 1st May 2007 00:22 UTC
big_gie
Member since:
2006-01-04

As others as stated, the important thing is not the distro it will have. At the begining, only geeks will buy those computers, and will install their prefered distro.

What I'am happy about those new computers is that they will be linux compatible, whatever the distro is. Maybe the GPL will be protecting enough so the drivers for the included hardware will be included in the kernel. That way, whatever distro you want, you're sure it will work.

With my dell inspiron 8500 (~4 years old), I have trouble with 1) wireless card (broacom 4306 - TrueMobile 1300) and 2) graphic card (nvidia geforce4 MX 4200 Go). Those two pieces needs a proprietary driver. Its an interesting problem...

Reply Score: 1

Obviously
by jessta on Tue 1st May 2007 00:50 UTC
jessta
Member since:
2005-08-17

Obviously they would choose Ubuntu.
It's the new hip distro. Dell wants to ride on the back of that publicity wave.

My experiences with it have been fairly disappointing(disasters when doing a dist-upgrade, problems with ksudo not working on kbuntu, etc.) but it's much less work if you're install for an ex-Windows user who doesn't like having choice.
Nothing beats Gentoo for creating a system that works the way you told it to.

Reply Score: 2

2007 Could be the Year of the Linux Desktop
by SEJeff on Tue 1st May 2007 02:02 UTC
SEJeff
Member since:
2005-11-05

This is it... 2007 will be remembered as the "Year of the Linux Desktop" that analysts have been talking about forever.

The only thing preventing it was a large IHV (Independent Hardware Vendor) to preinstall Linux on it's computers. Dell would certainly count as a large IHV.

Think of what this will do for Ubuntu visibility... wow!

Reply Score: 3

rm6990 Member since:
2005-07-04

Think of what this will do for Ubuntu visibility... wow!


1) This product will NEVER make it onto Dell's front-page, and they will likely never advertise it on TV. This is being done to please existing customers who already use Linux (or to attract non-customers that use Linux), NOT to widely promote Linux as an alternative to Windows.

2) At best, it will be an additional option on SOME desktops, and the vast majority of users will ignore it and choose Windows.

3) It WILL cost more, guaranteed. This is because Dell receives kickbacks for the crapware they bundle on their PCs, which won't be happening on Linux anytime soon. So it won't even be available as a cheaper option for people who want to buy it, wipe it and install a pirated Windows. And no one is going to pay more for an OS they have never heard of before that won't run all the software they already own and know how to use.

Being realistic, Dell is doing this to please a small minority of their customers, and will do little to nothing to actually promote it to Joe Blow. As much as I want to see Linux succeed, I don't see this as being the major development a lot of people seem to think it is. I see it as primarily a publicity stunt.

Call me when, on computers that offer both Windows and Ubuntu, you see "Dell recommends Ubuntu Linux" or w/e. The only alternative OS I could see Dell pushing as a major alternative to Windows is Mac OS X, and the day when Apple licenses it to Dell is the day hell freezes over.

Reply Score: 3

rm6990 Member since:
2005-07-04

[sarcasm] Gee, the moderation system on this site is clearly working. Obviously my comment was trolling and my points have no basis in-fact whatsoever. I clearly deserved to be moderated down. [/sarcasm]

[cluebat] I regularily mod up people I disagree with if they have good points, and mod down people I do agree with if they are trolling or whatever. The mod system wasn't put in place to mod down people you don't agree with![/cluebat]

Reply Score: 1

sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

"""
I clearly deserved to be moderated down
"""

Hey Ryan,

Don't worry overly. I find that sometimes some of my comments are modded down quickly. People who mod down for bad reasons tend to be pretty quick on the trigger. But give it a bit of time, and that majority of people who are fair and reasonable will usually correct the situation. Not always. But usually.

If you feel that you were moderated down unfairly, don't give the bastards that did it the satisfaction of knowing that you care. ;-)

Reply Score: 3

apoclypse Member since:
2007-02-17

The great thing about Ubuntu is that it doesn't need to be advertised. The Logo is easily recognizable, the slogan is easy to remember. They name the dev versions of the distro something catchy, and funny. The advertising and marketing behind Ubuntu is word of mouth. People are generally excited about the distro. How can Dell not try to tap into that. If Canonical works closely with Dell maybe we can have a more thoroughly tested release. The issue with Ubuntu is that its not as large as RedHat or Suse, they have a team of about 40 and usually run out of time every release. Things get deferred a lot in each release. Hopefully, they will get more developers. I also think that Ubuntu is different enough in terms of culture, that Dell wants to try something new.

I will personally purchase a laptop from them with ubuntu. I just wish they would have better designs on them. I like more sleek looking hardware and there stuff is pretty bulky. I'm more worried about the very short upgrade intervals. Maybe a yearly release will instead of a bi-yearly release at least with official releases with the second release being more an update and bug hunt release.

Reply Score: 3

rm6990 Member since:
2005-07-04

The great thing about Ubuntu is that it doesn't need to be advertised. The Logo is easily recognizable, the slogan is easy to remember. They name the dev versions of the distro something catchy, and funny. The advertising and marketing behind Ubuntu is word of mouth. People are generally excited about the distro. How can Dell not try to tap into that.


Step out of your geek-verse for a second and walk up to 20 random people on the street (unless you live in Silicon Valley of course :-P), show them the Ubuntu logo, and ask if they know what it is. You'll be lucky to get a single yes. When I mention advertising, I'm talking about advertising to the 99.5% of people that don't read sites like OSNews and Slashdot, and who also think Linux is a laundry detergent. Dell has 2 choices:

1) Don't advertise, and target that very small percentage of people who are familiar with Linux and Ubuntu and would be interested in their product. If this happens (which is very likely), then, like I said, they are simply doing this to please a small subset of customers.

2) Advertise to Joe User, and I simply don't see this happening. Too many support issues and customers that are pissed off when they buy a program at the store and it doesn't work. Apple has stores dedicated to selling hardware and software specifically for Macs, and I've still seen this exact same thing happen with Mac using friends. In my home city, I don't know of a single store that specializes in Linux that sells consumer level Linux software. F/OSS is lacking in some essential areas (I'm a big Apple supporter, and I'll concede Apple is lacking in some of these areas as well), such as tax software, CAD software, Photoshop, etc etc.

Reply Score: 5

llanitedave Member since:
2005-07-24

"In my home city, I don't know of a single store that specializes in Linux that sells consumer level Linux software. "

Ummm.... Could that be because it's free?

Reply Score: 1

Stock Member since:
2005-08-31

You say that advertising to Joe User wont happen but I think Dell will strike a middle ground. I've been seeing Dell appear at the top of Google advertising whenever I type in "Linux Laptop" for about the last month.

Yes they're targeting people who know about Linux but maybe they want to catch the market who is desperate to get away from Vista and they're looking at Linux and Apple as options. Only one of those lets Dell keep their customers.

Reply Score: 1

SEJeff Member since:
2005-11-05

I'm more worried about the very short upgrade intervals. Maybe a yearly release will instead of a bi-yearly release at least with official releases with the second release being more an update and bug hunt release.
This is what the LTS (Long Term Support) releases are for. Feisty was just released and Gutsy will be the next one. I read somewhere that the next LTS Ubuntu release will likely be Gutsy+1.

Reply Score: 3

ubit Member since:
2006-09-08

"I'm more worried about the very short upgrade intervals. Maybe a yearly release will instead of a bi-yearly release at least with official releases with the second release being more an update and bug hunt release."

I agree with you..I know the timing is very important in order to 'combat' Vista and Leopard and get Ubuntu out to market, however the LTS thing is an issue that so many Linux distros face-- either use an old version of GNOME like Red Hat and Debian etch do, or have really nice features like Feisty Fawn has, and have a few more bugs. Then you have to upgrade. But in any case, Feisty Fawn will be supported for 18 months so hopefully the upgrade process will be more tested; people don't have to upgrade right away (in fact I'd be surprised if Dell doesn't have their own repositories to holds back upgades until tested)

Reply Score: 2

Silent_Seer Member since:
2007-04-06

Year of the linux desktop will arrive when major vendors (not necessarily all) provide Linux PCs, support them AND advertise for them.

But this is a small step in the right direction. If major vendors discreetly offer linux as Dell is going to do,at least the customer has a choice.

But not if that thing is overpriced and not supported. It could worth nothing, something just done to shut up our mouths. Let's see.

Reply Score: 1

this is good for all linux distros
by buff on Tue 1st May 2007 02:11 UTC
buff
Member since:
2005-11-12

It doesn't really matter what distro Dell places on their boxes. If it works for Ubuntu then I know the hardware support is good for Redhat and other linux distros since the kernels, Gnome and KDE are very similar. It is nice to know I could buy a Dell box and just install Redhat or CentOS on it. It seems like a win for Desktop Linux in general.

Reply Score: 5

Obscurus Member since:
2006-04-20

It is only good for linux distros if end users who are new to Linux have a good experience from it - if they get burned by Dell in any way, it will likely set back linux in general for some time, as it can be very hard to rebuild a reputation once it has been torn down. I would be a bit nervous about this if I were Mr. Shuttleworth.

Ubuntu is a very good distro, but their release cycle is too aggressive and it isn't tested thoroughly enough IMO. Instead of having a release every six months, they should move to an annual release schedule, and focus on quality control. Having played around with 7.04 for a bit, there are a number of glaring problems where it is quite obvious no-one actually tested particular features before release, such as camera support, where any noob to Linux would be really put off by the experience of dealing with things like that.

Dell would be wise to stick with 6.10 rather than 7.04, as it at least has been stabilised, while 7.04 is a bit bleeding edge and unfinished at this stage.

Reply Score: 1

rm6990 Member since:
2005-07-04

Why couldn't they just use the LTS releases? Wouldn't that make the most sense?

Reply Score: 2

bosco_bearbank Member since:
2005-10-12

Actually, I'm finding that hardware support, in the form of non-standard and/or (gasp!) non-free drivers, makes a difference. For example, my laptop works happily with the old rt2500 driver. I haven't tried the very latest rt2x00 driver, but the version in the Fedora development kernels of about three weeks ago did not work. Ubuntu includes the old rt2500 driver so wireless works out of the box on my laptop. With Fedora, I have to compile the driver myself. For the newbie, this is a clear Ubuntu win. On my desktop machine, the wireless card requires the Atheros driver. Again, Ubuntu just works, whereas with Fedora I have to either go hunting for an old kernel for which the required modules have already been created (ATrpms to the rescue) or compile myself. As long as the distro chosen by Dell supports the hardware on which it's being offered, its a win for Linux, GNU, freedom, Mom, apple pie, etc...

Reply Score: 1

Good for Dell
by Seth Quarrier on Tue 1st May 2007 03:22 UTC
Seth Quarrier
Member since:
2005-11-13

I am writing this from my new Lenovo R60 which I like very much, but I have to say I didn't even consider buying a Dell, but I had decided to buy a laptop a month or two from now, I would have seriously considered Dell just because I think it is important for consumers to vote with their dollars regardless of whether or not I am personally capable of installing Linux apparently I am as I am typing in Linux right now ;) . Having said this, however, I still most likely would have gone for quality over OS choice as much of a zealot I might be, but I should think this should get Dell a few sales and perhaps enough to choose to advertise it.

Also, if I where to say recommend a laptop to my parents, preinstalled Linux, especially something like (K)umbuntu would be a huge plus, as I would not have to configure their computer for them as Linux is now superior to Windows for the web-browser genre of computer users.

Reply Score: 1

Dell only wants better prices
by sledgehammer89 on Tue 1st May 2007 06:17 UTC
sledgehammer89
Member since:
2006-02-02

... for Windows licences. So they say, they will be install Linux ;)

Reply Score: 1

I want to know, how long it last.
by Babi Asu on Tue 1st May 2007 06:30 UTC
Babi Asu
Member since:
2006-02-11

With lack of drivers, or just given generic drivers (and called it working out of the box), I doubt Dell still sell linux box at 2008.

I'm not talking BS, but it's reality. My printer is Canon Pixus 860i. From CUPS driver, I only got postcript driver. OTOH, in Windows and OSX, I can print 2 pages in one sheet, print double sided (I bought double side tray), print on cd/dvd surface, or print photos with photo tray.

What's the point of free OS, if it only limits the potential of hardware usage?

Reply Score: 1

FooBarWidget Member since:
2005-11-11

Because Dell can make sure the hardware is compatible. They provide the entire computer, remember?

Reply Score: 1

Babi Asu Member since:
2006-02-11

Sure, Dell can ensure whichever linux distro it chose, it will be compatible, just like what Apple does. But, how about peripherals, e.g. my experience with printer. Or you only buy Dell printer, Dell scanner, Dell camera, Dell etc?

I like FreeBSD very much, but not as desktop environment. It's still a long way to go.

Reply Score: 1

ubit Member since:
2006-09-08

I guess Dell _would_ like that ;) But HP and Epson printers and scanners work great. Otherwise, there's generally info on the ubuntuforums or wiki on how to get a specific peripheral working. Remember, this is the same OS that can run Windows wireless drivers...

Also, it's the chicken and egg thing again. If Linux gets more marketshare, it gets even more hardware support than it already has, hopefully.

Edited 2007-05-01 08:25

Reply Score: 2

it's confirmed
by roger64 on Tue 1st May 2007 06:46 UTC
roger64
Member since:
2006-08-15

one staff member at Canonical GlobalSupport Services said that the embargo was over and that Ubuntu has been selected by Dell. For what is worth.

Reply Score: 1

$
by cylent on Tue 1st May 2007 08:55 UTC
cylent
Member since:
2007-04-26

I wonder how much Ubuntu paid dell to make this happen?

Reply Score: 1

RE: $
by Kroc on Tue 1st May 2007 10:05 UTC in reply to "$"
Kroc Member since:
2005-11-10

Or how much Dell is going to have to pay to support Linux; if anything Canoncal probably got a cushty contract out of this, and that will go towards the development of Ubuntu ;)

Reply Score: 2

Silent_Seer Member since:
2007-04-06

Hehe, the solution to distro incompatibility are the lack of adequate standards, not the reduction of distros.

You think the distros you mentioned are the best for the tasks listed? Maybe so, but I am sure plenty of knowledgeable folks out there who would seriously disagree.

You forgot to mention Slackware, Linspire, Puppy, DSL. All (most major/well known) distros have something to offer. And others assimilate the good features in them. This leads to their betterment. This is evolution buddy, don't worry the notorius compatibility problem will be answered.

Reply Score: 1

Kubuntu
by Isolationist on Tue 1st May 2007 09:51 UTC
Isolationist
Member since:
2006-05-28

I hope they will also consider Kubuntu, for those who prefer to use KDE.

Reply Score: 1

gutsy polish
by qwerty2k on Tue 1st May 2007 10:45 UTC
qwerty2k
Member since:
2007-04-08

according the new ubuntu weekly newsletter:

The main purpose of Gutsy is improvement and quality. There will not be much in terms of new or experimental features but stabilising and polishing the existing features.

Reply Score: 1

its all good
by Dekkard on Tue 1st May 2007 13:24 UTC
Dekkard
Member since:
2006-01-07

I think for the uninitiated( those who never used Slackware) Ubuntu will be a good choice. It offers enough gui tools for a windows user to feel they have some control over their system. It will mean that thaey have a large software pool to choose from and also allow flexibility with the DE the choose.. Gnome,Kde,Xfce4, Wmaker,Fluxbox, and even e17. Plus the fact that compiz/beryl is an easy install will give them all the eyecandy they could want. Its a good choice. however I really feel that this "winner of the desktop linux war", is just a bad idea for the community. It was never a war. It was a matter of choice, and I personally hate even hearing the argument.

Reply Score: 1