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There are other, smaller, companies out there selling 100% Linux compatible laptops. Would you not consider buying from them?

Even the company I work for is going to be selling a 13.3" Widescreen, Dual Core laptop as soon as the stock arrives and we don't even deal with Windows so MS never get a penny from us.

I'm not allowed to link the website as it's being redesigned at the moment, and I wouldn't want to seem to be blatantly self advertising. Anyone interested can e-mail me for details though.

Same problem tho... those small companies don't tend to offer small laptops....

(and by small I mean under 2kg/4.5lbs)

Edited 2007-05-01 16:36 UTC

My company is in the U.K. but I think we can ship to most of Europe as well. The laptop I've been testing for Linux compatibility today only weighs 2.1Kgs and is fully loaded and (so far) fully compatible.

So I can say there are some small vendors out there trying hard to bring these things to market.

My E-mail address is in my profile if anyone wants details.

Yeah... I will buy one too when they release Latitude with Ubuntu ... and install Debian imediately

I think that the idea behind this move is to offer those who want it an alternative to Windows on a brand name computer... However, with appropriate "caveat emptor" - you better know what you are doing... Either way, I think it's a great thing - with all the shortcomings it actually offers you CHOICE :o).

I doubt it will be that much cheaper. As has been reported many times previously, the OEM rate for Windows is very low and most or all of it is offset by the "crapware" loaded on it. If you add to this the investment they have to put in in testing and altering hardware, training people for the linux install, it will possibly be more expensive (at least initially). But there are two optimistic scenarios (a) they decide not to pass everything onto the consumer and just treat their costs as an investment to get into a new market (b) they might find crapware to install on these machines just like any Windows machine e.g. something like the Google pack deal or Real Player should be happy to get on. Which means some of us might have to spend some time getting rid of junk but at least we will get cheaper machines.

At least the hardware will be certified, so (in theory) booting from a fresh Feisty install CD will leave you with a "crapware" free install, with 100% working hardware

Ah, but don't count your chickens before they've hatched. We shall have to see about that. I don't see what would stop Dell from including crapware on a Linux laptop.

Which brings us to an even more interesting point: the possibility of introducing spyware and crapware to Linux for the first time, on a big scale. It could bomb in many various ways. Consider the fact there's currently no anti-spyware tool for Linux; I don't WANT there to be even a need for such a tool, ever, but you just watch various nay-sayers scream about how Linux is just so "insecure" over it.

Edited 2007-05-02 09:46

That might not be a bad thing one thing I see in the Ubuntu forums a lot is how do I install real player. aslong as the pick useful crapware I dont mine so much.

That's actually a very good point. If the crapware is proprietary codecs, drivers, and players, then it might actually enhance the OOTB experience for Windows refugees.

If it was useful in any way it wouldn't have been called "crapware". It was crap on Windows and it will be crap on Linux.

Why exactly would the Linux option be cheaper when Dell makes a profit from the programs that come pre-installed on their systems, and they also have to add further steps into their manufacturing process and testing process to support and preinstall Linux? I don't see K3B, OpenOffice.org, etc etc paying Dell the money that companies like Symantec, Real Networks, etc etc pay Dell.

I'd actually be surprised if the Linux option was cheaper. Would be nice though.

I doubt that they would include many closed source drivers - more testing which means more costs on them. If they dumped this laptop in the form of a desktop, the only closed source driver required would be Nvidia.

Assuming they stick with Intel/Nvidia - they shouldn't have too many problems; problems only start to occur when they go off and start using gear from the likes of Broadcom who steadfast refuse to provide an open source driver or specifications for writing a driver.

When you're a company pushing 20million units per quarter, you're in a good position to start saying "no, we're not going to purchase your hardware, you refuse to provide specifications to Linux maintainers, there fore, we refuse to purchase your hardware - we refuse to use it on either Linux or Windows machines".

When hardware companies like HP/Compaq and Dell start to put down their foot, pay an extra 30cents for their component(s) in favour of components which are fully open sourced supported - and provide specifications for those who ask.

Believe me, if I was a component company, and there was an exclusive contract with Dell and/or HP/Compaq, and all I had to do is open up my specifications so that all operating systems could support it, I'd say thats a pretty damn small price to pay so that I can sell 80million units per year to Dell alone.

Just a quick note: many of the Broadcom drivers are now supported in Feisty Fawn. My laptop's Broadcom 4319 card words flawlessly now - no more need for Driverloader. Yay!

We can only imagine that Dell will pre-configure these so that they are ready OOTB (or right after first boot, to make sure the kernel isn't distributed with pre-linked closed-source drivers).

I'm sure that's what "we have worked with Dell to get Ubuntu fully supported and fully certified on Dell Hardware" means.

But it is a driver that has been developed via trial and error; I don't want to put down the huge amount of work done, but I really can't sleep in bed straight knowing that a piece of equipment I rely on was developed via that process.

Why is it important? because what happens when something goes wrong, and maintenance needs to be done, the specifications aren' there, and broadcom aren't providing any engineering help to track down those issues - atleast in the case of the ipw3945 (and its replacement), it has been developed by Intel, fully opensourced and documented (hence we have 3945 support on other platforms).

Don't get me wrong, I much prefer when the OEM provides their own open-source driver. That said, so far the updated bcm43xx driver has worked flawlessly for me. Apparently, it incorporates some work done by the Apple engineers (in any case, there is a ieee80211-softmac driver also loaded at the same time that is linked to it).

I agree with you, it's not the best situation, but if the driver *is* stable, then it's certainly better than nothing! ;-)

I'll admit, that this comment is a little off topic, but why are people modding the the guy down? I think the comment is quite funny

On an article related note though, I think that this will be a great deal for everyone involved. I personally use a work-provided notebook and Linux runs beautifully on it, but taking it a step further to ensure that Ubuntu will run correctly and certifying it is good news too. Hey, maybe this will mark the return of Dell. I hope so for their sake.

Come on! mod up this guy!

He is not insulting anyone and his comment is very funny.... (I would say his comment has a lot of fun, and a lot of truth).

I will be more likely to buy a computer with linux preinstalled than one with windows ... if only to support dell's cool decision and to support what they are doing .. a big thumbs up from me for dell .. and for ubuntu .. as well off course .. dell pcs preloaded with ubuntu feisty and even more the updates after it will rock this world .. way to go .. dell ...

vista sucks .. why reinvent the wheel .. when it is already there .. and when reinventing do it good .. take a look at ubuntu .. way to go guys ...

ok lol enough for now ..

cheers,

Johnbon

the same for me. I'm one of those that likes to build their own pc, but I'm perfectly willing to buy a dell laptop. I was(am) going to buy a macbook when the newer models drop because I wan to focus on music production, which frankly Linux is awful at atm. I can always get a laptop from dell and scrap my plans on building my next pc for the moment. I no longer get as excited over building pc's as I used to be and rather have something thats functional instead of the fastest thing out there.

Ditto here. If this lives up to the hype my next laptop will be a Dell.

Whilst this is a humourous take on things, Microsoft will probably try and muscle in and do dirty deals in the background to either stop this from happening, or minimise its effect on Windows sales. Microsoft is after all, a known, convicted monopolist in several countries now.

Good work Ubuntu, and good work Dell. Pity that Dell hardware is so shabby imho - if it was quality gear, I'd be tempted.

Dave

I guess that Ubuntu will be pre-configured by Dell so no hardware problems should occur and codecs will most likely be pre-installed too (the ones from Fluendo which are legal in US).

In all fairness, Ubuntu will play more video and audio formats out the box than Windows will. None of the OEM machines i've ever bought will play MPEG-4 video or H.264 for example, and they usually ship with the nasty Real and Quicktime players and an ancient and crappy DVD decoder like WinDVD v5.

These days on all friend and family OEM bought Windows PC's I install Real and Quicktime Alternative, remove their offical counterparts, install Haali's Media Splitter (For ogm, mkv and mp4 playback) and the latest copy of ffdshow [for MPEG-4, MPEG-2 (DVD) and H.264 playback]

On the positive, it should now be able to buy a PC from a major manufacturer without paying the Windows tax.

Don't bet on it. I've yet to see a major manufacturer sell a Linux pre-installed machine cheaper than a Windows one.

I remember last year when Lenovo said that they'd be selling SUSE (IIRC) preinstalled on a line of laptops. The cheapest configuration was about $2700 -- same price as the Windows version.

I think you missed the part where it says that Ubuntu will be pre-installed on these Dell PCs. That should take care of the codecs and decss issues, as well as those of proprietary drivers (as long as the latter are actually installed when the *user* first boots the computer, in order to comply with the GPL).

Are you aware that a plain non-OEM Windows install will not play DVDs either? It's the computer manufacturer's responsibility to bundle a codec, and I would imagine that Dell will do so for Ubuntu too.

"....but still inadequate (doesn't play dvd's after installing the codecs, because of the deccs problem)."

Well, since this will be a commercial offering, there is nothing saying that Dell can not provide the decss and hopefully take care of the licensing of it for distribution. Could be easily done by including it on a CD separate from the Linux discs, with instructions to run the CD after you set the machine up.

You would actually pay more for the laptop (it will likely be more expensive than the Windows option due to lack of crapware) just so money doesn't go to Microsoft? I mean...I know we all hate Microsoft and all, but give me a break.

"it will likely be more expensive than the Windows option due to lack of crapware"

You think "crapware" pays the entire cost of Vista? Ubuntu is free, it should cost less, not more, even without the "crapware".

"You would actually pay more for the laptop (it will likely be more expensive than the Windows option due to lack of crapware) just so money doesn't go to Microsoft?"

Within reason, yes. To be utterly honest, it's not just keeping money away from Microsoft (because, really, how much can it hurt them at this point?), but its also about making Microsoft behave more reasonably in the marketplace. They aren't THE pit of evil, they've just had it their way long enough, as far as I'm concerned.

Edited 2007-05-03 18:02

If I understand correctly, the support will come from Canonical. I think that is a great idea. It will be interesting to see how that plays out. Personally, I just hope Canonical and Dell both make money on it, so others will join in.

On a more serious note, I have to figure out how to convince my wife I need a new laptop!

But everyone who uses a Windows machine had to once learn where everything was. (And to be honest, the vast majority of avergage users are still just barely cognizant of My Documents, let alone Program Files, system32 and the registry).

My sense is that at first it'll only be people in the know adopting, and eventually their friends/family that those with some knowledge tend to support anyway. Businesses (and it'll start with small business) will lag behind, unless they get some deals from Dell. If it takes, within a couple years there will be a good chunk of people who understand /usr/share as well as they might have C:/Program Files.

So -- is 2007 the year of the Linux Desktop?

Actually, when I used to do Linux support as a contractor for Sun, I used to hear some of the guys in the cubicles near us who did Windows support for another company.

I'd _MUCH_ rather do phone support for Linux than for Windows. "Ok sir, right click on My Computer and check for properties" "Click on your computer? How'm I supposed to do that??" ugh...

At least with a Linux install there's some chance that the tech might just say, ok, open a terminal, type ifconfig and tell me what number you see. [tech then proceeds to ssh in and fix problem]. And yes, asking the user for their password is fairly normal in this type of support, at least in my experience.

At the very least, it can be easier to just tell folks what to type in letter for letter than it is to have them clicking all around a graphical environment.

Agreed 100%. I am so much happier supporting my computer illiterate family members on Linux than I was supporting them on Windows or even MacOSX. I can usually ssh and fix their problems remotely, and even in the worst possible case, when the problem is no networking, it is easier to spell out commands than to tell them to click on things and then tell me what they see. People are so bad at describing their options on a GUI dialog. The most difficult over-the-phone terminal support issue I encounter is explaining that the "vertical bar" is above the enter key while holding shift.

More importantly, I just don't get many calls anymore. My family's computers keep humming along, reading their gmail, importing their photos, and servicing themselves automatically. In a few weeks, to avoid the initial release hiccups, I'll do a round of calls to update them to all to Feisty. It really doesn't need to get that much easier, but it will anyway.

Windows XP is atleast relatively simple to support/manage, and the users atleast generally understand where somethings located.

Oh yeah. I can give you off the top of my head a few examples of problems with XP that will curl your toes. The kind of problems that appear from nowhere, affect only one of several identical machines for no apparent reason and give you only cryptic error messages to work with (IF you know where to look for them). And no fix in sight short of a complete reinstall.

Please. There's plenty of potential obscurity in both Linux and Windows desktop environments, if the going gets tought. At least in Linux there is a config file you can fix by hand.

i agree, now that the biggest supplier of desktop computers has choosen to supply Linux (ubuntu) surely this heralds the year that linux finally broke into the desktop market in a big way.

Im please with this news as competition helps the consumer and forces companies to start innovating again.

I would also like to see more hardware in PCworld certified for linux (perhaps not all, but the major distros such as ubuntu, redhat (fedora) and suse).

well, HP just became larger than DELL, but HP's linux support has always been better than DELL's, so that doesn't change the fact this is a great thing

I wish they would offer Kubuntu, though, as it's easier for ex-windows-users to get used to, and more efficient in use (if you're a moderate-or-more user, let's say more than 2 hours a day).

Superstoned may be an apropo name...

HPs support for linux is horrible as a desktop. Their website first said their nx6325 (and other machines) would be available with Linux installed, then they said they were compatible; I bought one, and the damn wireless card and ATI card still aren't supported well. Not that I am afraid of hacking to get stuff working, but their support for LINUX is ATROCIOUS!!

I called to order it and they acted as if they have never heard of Linux before.

There were also BIOS/fan issues that caused their NX6325 to overheat up! I know! It happened to me! They did set rebuild the machine, update the BIOS,and send it back free so that the problem didnt happen again, but THAT SHOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED IN THE FIRST PLACE, especially WHEN YOU ARE RELEASING A PRESS STATEMENT SAYING THAT YOU ARE SELLING LINUX COMPATABLE MACHINES!

HP. I love their hardware, but their support for desktop Linux users is pathetic.

Edited 2007-05-01 16:00

there are clearly differences between departments within HP, in regard to Linux support. Their printers are top-notch, and they've been supporting linux on servers for quite some time. I dunno much about the desktop, but clearly, it leaves room for improvement ;-)

Unfortunately, for most normal people, KDE just looks too horrible OOTB to be taken seriously. The benefit of Gnome is that it looks much more professionally designed.

luckily, for most normal people, KDE looks a bit more like a modern Windows than gnome, and doesn't have the depressing colors. Gnome just has bigger buttons which use more space.

My point is - looks don't matter, and even if they did - it'd be pro KDE. It's way too personal anyway. Most ppl I see don't like the gnome look (depressing, they say).

Personally, I like the orange Ubuntu look better than the Kubuntu look, though the latter is much more usefull on a small laptop screen (Gnome can barely fit 3 buttons in there).

Dell is no longer the top seller of computers. HP snatched that spot away a while ago. They are still #2 though.

>2007, the Year of the Linux Desktop.

I remember when I first heard that. I still had all my hair.

And I weighed about 50 pounds less!

I meant it as a joke (I always forget to put the smiley!), however, it would be nice if this was the start of a snowball effect for Linux. I especially hope schools jump on the bandwagon.

But, since I'm playing the part of a slashdotter here:

"All your Buntus are belong to Us"

There, I'm done!

>>2007, the Year of the Linux Desktop.

>I remember when I first heard that. I still had all my hair.

Amazing that someone predicted 2007 so long ago*.

Seriously though, is it ready? In the last few years I've come to the conclusion that Linux is for me. I actually avail myself of the opportunity to change the software I use, and I appreciate the openness. At the same time it's become more obvious that it isn't for everyone.

Windows obviously isn't dead easy to use either, but at least when stuff goes wrong there's support from various hacks in your city or from the folks from whom you bought your computer. I guess if Dell offers some support for Ubuntu.. but then does it become too much of an expense for Dell?

That aside, some people will never get the console or understand Linux internals, but maybe the standard support line can be "reinstall!" as it so often is with Windows once the support call drags on over an hour. If Dell supported it, it would work as well for Linux as it would for Windows, as long as Canonical could avoid any more X11 breakage within their stable distro.

EDIT
*not to say it was very long ago you had hair, you jut seemed to be using that phrase to denote a longer period of time

Edited 2007-05-01 15:20

Beat me to it!

How? It won't be the year of the Linux Desktop until major hardware manufacturers and Games support Linux "out of the box." So far that has only happened on a very small scale.

If you say it's because Dell is shipping Linux desktops, pish-posh. Bigger manufacturers than Dell have shipped fully supported Linux configurations before now.

It won't be the year of the Linux Desktop until major hardware manufacturers and Games support Linux "out of the box." So far that has only happened on a very small scale.

Well it's never going to be the year of desktop Linux if the definition keeps changing. Dell selling pre-installed Ubuntu laptops, not to mention the general state that Linux is in, far surpasses the definition from just a few years ago. I suppose in a few years I'll be hearing "it will never be the year of desktop Linux until MS goes bankrupt"

My definition has never changed. Perhaps you mean other people's perception of what "Linux Desktop" means? Perhaps the problem itself is that "Linux Desktop" is a loaded term. What exactly, is a "Linux Desktop" might be a better question.

For me personally, it is not the year of the "Linux Desktop", despite the fact that I've been using GNU/Linux and UNIXes such *BSD, Solaris, etc. on my desktop for years and years now...