Linked by Thom Holwerda on Thu 3rd May 2007 23:28 UTC
Amiga & AROS ACK Controls, the company behind the newly announced Amiga hardware, has held an IRC session where they answered questions and provided more details concerning the upcoming hardware. According to ACK, the promised hardware will arrive with OS4 despite the legal battle going on between Amiga Inc. and Hyperion. On the high-spec machine (USD 1500), they said: "It's faster than anything Apple ever produced on the PowerPC side of things." Which is interesting, to say the least. The transcript containts many more details, and the Amiga community is discussing the matter as well.
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So now the question is...
by Almafeta on Thu 3rd May 2007 23:40 UTC
Almafeta
Member since:
2007-02-22

... will we be able to get software to go with that hardware?

(I wish we had more informative news on this than IRC chat sessions... -_-; )

Reply Score: 3

603e????
by PowerMacX on Thu 3rd May 2007 23:53 UTC
PowerMacX
Member since:
2005-11-06

Sure, the transcript makes a reference about the high-spec machine being faster than any PPC Mac Apple made, but even more interesting (or worrying?) it also seems to imply that the entry level board will have a... 603e???

Seriously?

Reply Score: 3

RE: 603e????
by zizban on Fri 4th May 2007 01:05 UTC in reply to "603e????"
zizban Member since:
2005-07-06

A 603e would be OK. Remember, the AmigaOS runs great on a 68040 so a 603e would certainly be fast enough for a low end machine.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: 603e????
by signals on Fri 4th May 2007 15:40 UTC in reply to "RE: 603e????"
signals Member since:
2005-07-08

A 603e would be OK. Remember, the AmigaOS runs great on a 68040 so a 603e would certainly be fast enough for a low end machine.

While it is true that AmigaOS should be much faster than necessary on a low end PowerPC, I don't buy a computer to run only an OS on.

I need enough horsepower to compile at decent speeds. I need enough horsepower to encode/decode audio/video in all of the various codecs. I don't even know if that low-end Amiga is going to have enough horsepower to run all of the Java and Flash stuff that is out there. (Actually, I don't even know if AmigaOS has Java and Flash, since they didn't exist the last time I turned my Amiga on.)

While AmigaOS might be fast, it is because the OS doesn't have high requirements on the HW. But, the applications we use in today's world still require some horsepower, and the low-end Amiga won't have it.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: 603e????
by Thom_Holwerda on Fri 4th May 2007 16:58 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: 603e????"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

I need enough horsepower to compile at decent speeds. I need enough horsepower to encode/decode audio/video in all of the various codecs.

This is an entry level board. Key word: entry level. Encoding and compiling are not entry level activities.

Reply Score: 1

RE: 603e????
by henrikmk on Fri 4th May 2007 13:04 UTC in reply to "603e????"
henrikmk Member since:
2005-07-10

It's a souped up 603e with more features and it's also providing faster memory speeds than were available for the AmigaOne. Specs are here:

http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MPC8...

Reply Score: 2

Ah yes
by rayiner on Thu 3rd May 2007 23:58 UTC
rayiner
Member since:
2005-07-06

More mysterious PPC hardware that blows away anything before it ;)

Actually, a 2 GHz MPC8641D would probably have better performance in real world tasks than any PowerMac save the quad G5. I haven't heard of that CPU above 1.5 GHz, but they probably have a lot more room TDP-wise in a desktop system than the 15-25W the chip usually runs at.

It wouldn't hold a candle to the new Intel Macs though...

Reply Score: 3

Hmm....
by bsharitt on Fri 4th May 2007 02:18 UTC
bsharitt
Member since:
2005-07-07

Given the promises/results ratio of the various Amiga related entites, I'm highly suspicious of a $1500 PowerPC box that outperforms the Quad G5 PowerMac.

Reply Score: 4

Comments...
by Bobthearch on Fri 4th May 2007 03:26 UTC
Bobthearch
Member since:
2006-01-27

Ackcontrols: PCI is still readily available. More so than AGP.

That's not true - check NewEgg. Less than 50 PCI graphic cards, 150-ish AGP cards, and over 400 PCIe cards. Of course none of that matters except which cards will have full driver support.

Although I will say, it's faster than anything Apple ever produced on the PowerPC side of thiings.

Perhaps he meant to say "PocketPC"?

And people want IDE?

He seems suprised. SATA hard drives are more expensive. SATA optical drives are more expensive and there are fewer choices. So IDE would seem like the way to go, at least on the low-end machine.

-Bob

Edited 2007-05-04 03:27

Reply Score: 3

RE: Comments...
by Dually on Fri 4th May 2007 05:34 UTC in reply to "Comments..."
Dually Member since:
2005-07-26

SATA hard drives are more expensive. SATA optical drives are more expensive and there are fewer choices.


SATA prices for both drives and optical are about the same as IDE these days. There is a slight price premium for optical of about $3CDN. ACKCONTROLS did say "It didn't make sense to use IDE. Would add extra chip" I don't know if this would offset the $3 difference for the SATA DVDRW drive

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Comments...
by Bobthearch on Fri 4th May 2007 06:08 UTC in reply to "RE: Comments..."
Bobthearch Member since:
2006-01-27

You're correct about the hard drives - guess I'm not up to date.

Comparing DVD-RW drives on the other hand, the SATA drives are about $10 more for a comparable model. $10 doesn't sound like much (it's less of a difference than I recall from last year's shopping), but it's a 30% premium.

He's probably right though, not enough difference to offset the cost of changing the motherboard. I think many computer hobbiests, including myself, count on re-using existing components when buying a new computer. For example, if I want to add a second or third hard drive, I'll want to use one I already own, not pay for a new one.

That creates an emotional outburst when the new computer won't support our existing stuff. But since these Amiga computers will be ready-built, that whole issue may be moot.

Best Wishes,
-Bob

Edited 2007-05-04 06:09

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Comments...
by Dually on Fri 4th May 2007 08:22 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comments..."
Dually Member since:
2005-07-26

Well its $3 difference from my wholesale list. I was not going by the prices on the internet. I guess alot of shops, both online and local, think they can squeeze a bit more profit out of joe public because its a sata drive.

From my list: (And this is not bulk orders)
PIONEER 112D 18X IDE DVD-/+ RW DUAL LAYER BLACK (OEM) $35.99
PIONEER 212D 18X SATA DVD-/+ RW DUAL LAYER (OEM) $38.99

Reply Score: 1

RE: Comments...
by dylansmrjones on Fri 4th May 2007 10:09 UTC in reply to "Comments..."
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

In Denmark SATA drives are now cheaper than PATA drives, though not much. Typically a few dollars cheaper. But support for IDE shouldn't be a surprise considering that numbers of IDE devices still in use. I have half a dozen IDE drives in my machine and that's not going to change any day soon.

Reply Score: 2

PowerPC
by Almafeta on Fri 4th May 2007 03:38 UTC
Almafeta
Member since:
2007-02-22

As to the PowerPC comment, it's been some years since Apple last made a PowerPC computer. Of course it'd be faster.

Reply Score: 3

RE: PowerPC
by rayiner on Fri 4th May 2007 10:39 UTC in reply to "PowerPC"
rayiner Member since:
2005-07-06

Eh, by some years you mean like, last year? The Quad G5 was only replaced less than a year ago!

Edited 2007-05-04 10:43

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: PowerPC
by Almafeta on Fri 4th May 2007 14:14 UTC in reply to "RE: PowerPC"
Almafeta Member since:
2007-02-22

*checks the date and sees it has, indeed, only been a year and a half*

True, true... these last semesters, then, have just felt like years T_T

Reply Score: 2

SteveNordquist
Member since:
2007-05-04

PowerPC and the many Open PPC -registered IP make it pretty believable that they can best the Quad 2.1GHz Apple systems out there 1.5 years ago; design automation has gotten that much easier at that point behind the bleeding edge. If they took the right (further, fox chakra in barrels fallen off the army lorry,) risks maybe Siggraph07 will be theirs?


Selling 10k of them before their markets are saturated with PS3-based emulators rather than sceners and contented hobbyists is the major trick. I'll look forward to the giant SVG ad campaign (though the flash Doors 'linspire' vid was fun, too.)


On the 603e side, the most minor spartphone can best that, so it's no feat; maybe that version will fit in a flash media format...though, why?

Reply Score: 2

I'll believe it when I see it...
by Luposian on Fri 4th May 2007 06:58 UTC
Luposian
Member since:
2005-07-27

But I sure hope THIS time isn't a bunch of blown smoke, like all the gazillion times before. Would be nice to see something as powerful as the G5 in an Amiga. AmigaOS 4 would be so fast, you'd probably have to interface to the computer with a brainwave reader. That way, the computer would do everything you wanted, as fast as you thought it! :-)

Reply Score: 2

What´s next?
by Fransexy on Fri 4th May 2007 08:48 UTC
Fransexy
Member since:
2005-07-29

To those that complain about not having IDE:

What is the next you want? a floppy? a tape deck? SATA is the future

Reply Score: 2

RE: What´s next?
by dylansmrjones on Fri 4th May 2007 10:29 UTC in reply to "What´s next?"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Yeah yeah. SATA is the future for a short while until it is replaced. Which will happen soon anyway ;)

The reason for IDE is quite logical. There's quite a few around with IDE devices or even floppies. I have floppy drive, 3 IDE harddisks and dvd and cd-r not to mention some old obscure devices using the serial port and some USB devices.

Backwards compatibility is not only for software!

SATA is not really the future. SATA is already here. SATA has been deprecated already by SATA-II. And so on ;) - Technology moves on but the sold devices do not. Therefore please give us backwards compatibility.

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: What´s next?
by melgross on Fri 4th May 2007 21:37 UTC in reply to "RE: What´s next?"
melgross Member since:
2005-08-12

If Amiga will have to depend on sales to cheap hobbyists, they there is no hope for them at all.

Reply Score: 2

RE: What´s next?
by Bobthearch on Fri 4th May 2007 23:30 UTC in reply to "What´s next?"
Bobthearch Member since:
2006-01-27

What is the next you want? a floppy?

I would think a floppy drive would be absolutely critical for the new computers. The intended audience for these machines are long-time Amiga users who will updating from their old hardware to the new. So it's important for these users to be able to transfer their files and install their applications.

It's already known that IDE hard drives won't be compatible with the new systems, and many (most?) of the old Amiga computers don't have CD-writers or USB plugs. So doesn't that leave floppies as the most logical method of transfering data and files to the new computers?

And weren't most of the Amiga software titles distributed on floppies?

Someone set me straight if I've got that wrong.

-Bob

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: What´s next?
by hairyneanderthal on Sat 5th May 2007 00:50 UTC in reply to "RE: What´s next?"
hairyneanderthal Member since:
2006-07-20

@Bobthearch

I would think a floppy drive would be absolutely critical for the new computers. The intended audience for these machines are long-time Amiga users who will updating from their old hardware to the new. So it's important for these users to be able to transfer their files and install their applications.


The Amiga floppy drive was very different and in someways superior beast to the PC (as was the Mac floppy at the time). It was able to get 880kb out of a formatted SD disk compared to the 720kb of a PC one. Even when HD floppies were introduced the technology was different between the two. The will to resurrect former Amiga floppy technology would be outweighed by the ease to transfer data now via CD or networks - so pretty much a low priority. The Amiga emulation scene too has long had ways of converting floppies to files as disk images, so again there are ways of moving this data without using physical floppy drives and most ex-Amiga users will have already converted their floppy selection to disk images.

However, I really don't rate the chances of any alliance between ACK and Amiga Inc. given both their records on vaporware.

Edited 2007-05-05 01:03

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: What´s next?
by Bobthearch on Sat 5th May 2007 01:50 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: What´s next?"
Bobthearch Member since:
2006-01-27

Thanks for the explanation.

-Bob

Reply Score: 1

Cell or Xenon
by dmantione on Fri 4th May 2007 08:50 UTC
dmantione
Member since:
2005-07-06

With a Cell or Xenon cpu, a claim that it is faster than any Mac has merit. Since positive comments about Cell have been made in the past, my guess is that they have a Cell cpu. It can be produced cheaply too.

The only question is wether it will be the Playstation 3,2GHz type or IBM's new 6GHz Cell CPU.

Edited 2007-05-04 08:52

Reply Score: 2

RE: Cell or Xenon
by viton on Fri 4th May 2007 10:06 UTC in reply to "Cell or Xenon"
viton Member since:
2005-08-09

my guess is that they have a Cell cpu
This is obviously ain't gonna happen.
1. They just don't have enough technical/financial resources to do it.
2. They need to support SPE in OS. This will made the
"low-end" and "high-end" incompatible.
3. CELL PPE is a very weak core. Existing apps will run slowly.

Edited 2007-05-04 10:07

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Cell or Xenon
by dmantione on Fri 4th May 2007 11:57 UTC in reply to "RE: Cell or Xenon"
dmantione Member since:
2005-07-06


1. They just don't have enough technical/financial resources to do it.
2. They need to support SPE in OS. This will made the
"low-end" and "high-end" incompatible.


They didn't say you would be able to use the performance easily. Still, the statement that it is as faster than any PPC Mac would be accurate.

Minimal support in the OS (to be able to program the SPEs in assembler) should be doable, Linux had this support rather quickly.


3. CELL PPE is a very weak core. Existing apps will run slowly.


Disagree. The Cell PPE is indeed rather weak against superscalar x86 and PowerPC cpu's. Compared to the embedded cpu's used on current designs like Efika and Samantha, the PPE is a pretty strong performer. You are not going to tell me that an Efika can outperform the 3,2 GHz PPE on the Cell.

By the way, which existing apps? 68000 software?

Edited 2007-05-04 11:58

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Cell or Xenon
by viton on Fri 4th May 2007 14:20 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Cell or Xenon"
viton Member since:
2005-08-09

the PPE is a pretty strong performer.
But it can't stand against 2Ghz G5.

By the way, which existing apps?
OS4 and PPC software.

BTW i'm a member of cellperformance.com
and doing PS3 coding for fun.

2 Nicholas :
it's still faster at that than *any* Amiga ever made.
They claim, what their solution is faster than any (Quad Core G5) Mac.

Probably 2 x overclocked Freescale 8641D?

I think PA6T-1682 has too much extra functionality (2*10GBE, 4*1GBE etc)

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Cell or Xenon
by rayiner on Fri 4th May 2007 15:02 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Cell or Xenon"
rayiner Member since:
2005-07-06

PA6T wouldn't do it. An overlocked 8641D seems more likely.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Cell or Xenon
by melgross on Fri 4th May 2007 21:41 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Cell or Xenon"
melgross Member since:
2005-08-12

You are expecting all of the few Amiga developers left to compile their apps for Cell?

That is an impossible task. Cell has poor tools available for doing that. The work would be daunting. The few sales these developers get would not support this migration.

Getting new developers would be hopeless.

People should forget about the Cell, and concentrate on a reality that exists.

And what about all of the people here who think buying a new $30 DVD recorder, or $50 HD is too much to ask? Even if the impossible happened, and companies did recompile their apps, and spent the many months needed to get them to work properly, do you expect these people to actually PAY for that work by buying upgrades? You surely don't think those developers would expect to give their new work away for free?

Edited 2007-05-04 21:47

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Cell or Xenon
by Nicholas Blachford on Fri 4th May 2007 12:46 UTC in reply to "RE: Cell or Xenon"
Nicholas Blachford Member since:
2005-07-06

3. CELL PPE is a very weak core. Existing apps will run slowly.

It's relatively weak on single threaded code compared to some processors - but even on single threaded code it's still faster at that than *any* Amiga ever made.

But, no I can't see it being Cell based, I think it's much more likely to be based on a Freescale or PA-Semi part.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Cell or Xenon
by melgross on Fri 4th May 2007 21:31 UTC in reply to "Cell or Xenon"
melgross Member since:
2005-08-12

This is a joke, right?

Reply Score: 1

Heh
by rajan r on Fri 4th May 2007 09:36 UTC
rajan r
Member since:
2005-07-27

It's a little spurious comparing new hardware presumably to be released in 2007 and a line of hardware that have been discontinued for some time.

Perhaps Amiga should take a page out of Apple's book and migrate to the Intel side of things before OS4 is released. Apple was the biggest customer of PowerPC processors for desktops and laptops; Amiga represents at present a tiny, tiny market to IBM and Motorola.

Sticking to PowerPC, Amiga would be depending on router manufacturers and the odd game console company or the other to spur innovation. PowerPC may be all that, but it would seem to be a poor business decision.

After all, if Apple's business could not pressure IBM into coming up with what they want (faster processors, G5s that would not melt a laptop chassis), what hope does Amiga have?

Reply Score: 2

RE: Heh
by Fransexy on Fri 4th May 2007 09:46 UTC in reply to "Heh"
Fransexy Member since:
2005-07-29

Perhaps Amiga should take a page out of Apple's book and migrate to the Intel side of things before OS4 is released

It took over 6 years to port from m68k to powerpc, what do you want another 4-5 years to port to x86.Itīs better relese powerpc machines now (than wait even more) and later god will say.
Note that apple not change to x86 until it had a very mature and competitive (against Microsoft) OS

Edited 2007-05-04 09:49

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Heh
by melgross on Fri 4th May 2007 21:35 UTC in reply to "RE: Heh"
melgross Member since:
2005-08-12

Apple didn't change until it became obvious that IBM and Freescale weren't interested in producing competitive desktop chips, only embedded versions.

The OS could have been ready years before, if Apple wanted to change before.

Amiga is now stuck using obsolete chips. WOW!

There is also no way that their top machine is going to be faster than Apple's old dual chip machines, despite that some here desperately want to think so.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Heh
by stone on Sat 5th May 2007 11:04 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Heh"
stone Member since:
2005-07-06

>> Apple didn't change until it became obvious that IBM and Freescale weren't interested in producing competitive desktop chips, only embedded versions.

apple switched when they realised being a miniscule buisness required them to actually pay ibm to develop new chips. just like every other company using power. so since apple rather wants the chips for free, and ibm didnt care for such an irrelevant small customer, the switch makes sense for all.

what is obvious though, is that ibm is interested in producing whatever chip you need. just name it, pay up and you get it. and that goes for the entire line including competive desktop parts.

>> Amiga is now stuck using obsolete chips. WOW!

you can call power a lot of things, but obsolete isnt one of them.

/stone

Reply Score: 3

Cell
by biffuz on Fri 4th May 2007 09:53 UTC
biffuz
Member since:
2006-03-27

I am on the side that thinks that they can't sell something faster than the Quad G5 PowerMac for $1500. Unless they use the Cell with optimized software, and I can't see how a company that took so long to make a basic operating system would do that in the next few months.
In fact, a Cell machine for $1500 can become a bestseller, if it can run other OSs.

Reply Score: 1

BASIC OS???
by Fransexy on Fri 4th May 2007 10:00 UTC
Fransexy
Member since:
2005-07-29

a company that took so long to make a basic operating system

Donīt confuse lightweight and a lack of a few feautures with a Basic OS

Reply Score: 1

2*8641D ? :)
by Leo43 on Fri 4th May 2007 14:27 UTC
Leo43
Member since:
2006-06-26

Come on... AmigaOS isn't multiprocessor lol

Appears to be vapor. When I read this IRC session and see words such as "bast*rds",... how can you take this for real ?!

Reply Score: 1

RE: 2*8641D ? :)
by viton on Fri 4th May 2007 15:07 UTC in reply to "2*8641D ? :)"
viton Member since:
2005-08-09

Come on... AmigaOS isn't multiprocessor lol
No one has said what these processors will be in use =)))
But this is the only way to be faster than PPC Mac, at least on paper ;)

Reply Score: 1

Will ship but won't deliver.
by SamuraiCrow on Fri 4th May 2007 14:55 UTC
SamuraiCrow
Member since:
2005-11-19

ACK may have access to the source code and be able to do his own port of the OS but without the dealers to do the end-user support the ACK systems will by high and dry. Amiga doesn't have the resources to do tech support even with the money they have access to. They need more man-power.

Reply Score: 1

Entry-level ?
by Leo43 on Fri 4th May 2007 18:17 UTC
Leo43
Member since:
2006-06-26

>This is an entry level board. Key word: entry level. Encoding and compiling are not entry level activities.
Of course they are. With an entry-level, you may easily encode/compile some stuff...

And this includes entry-level macs (even PPC-ones (G4))...

Now 3 years later, they want to release something a lot less powerfull than the entry-level Macs where 3 years ago: isn't there something wrong here ?!

Reply Score: 1

RE: Entry-level ?
by henrikmk on Fri 4th May 2007 18:44 UTC in reply to "Entry-level ?"
henrikmk Member since:
2005-07-10

isn't there something wrong here ?!


I would guess it's impossible to sell a machine with the same specs and price as a Mac Mini, when the Mini probably have sold far above 100.000-500.000 machines where this will only sell a few thousand, tops. Plus Apple can handle losses and production overshoots.

No one in their right mind would risk manufacturing 100.000 machines that they can't sell, unless they can cover the losses.

Edited 2007-05-04 18:47

Reply Score: 1

pa-semi?
by stone on Sat 5th May 2007 21:10 UTC
stone
Member since:
2005-07-06

possible of interest;
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=23097&fo...

while ack doesnt specificly say it will be this cpu, the pa semi cpu would meet the criterias with the one exception that amigaos doesnt handle smp at all.

strangly the response is;
>> -ackcontrols- Theer are issues with OS4 for SMP and 64 bit at the present time, but that's not a concern.

/stone

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: 603e????
by Wowbagger on Sun 6th May 2007 10:30 UTC
Wowbagger
Member since:
2005-07-06

603e was entry level when PPC started its very existence, by now it is crap. Nothing else. I really think this is a joke.

Reply Score: 1