Linked by Eugenia Loli on Wed 9th May 2007 00:53 UTC
Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu Ubuntu 7.04 - also known as Feisty Fawn - shines for its excellent software management tools and large catalog of ready-to-install free software applications. Read more at eWeek.
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v ubuntunews.com
by Anon on Wed 9th May 2007 01:30 UTC
appreciation
by Noremacam on Wed 9th May 2007 01:40 UTC
Noremacam
Member since:
2006-03-08

All the improvements in ubuntu this time around are more/less around the new linux user and it's hard for the seasoned user to appreciate.

Reply Score: 3

RE: appreciation
by miserj on Wed 9th May 2007 01:59 UTC in reply to "appreciation"
miserj Member since:
2006-05-15

Hopefully the next release will have improvements geared to the power user/expert users. You know, rotate targeted users.

Reply Score: 2

RE: appreciation
by Johann Chua on Wed 9th May 2007 06:41 UTC in reply to "appreciation"
Johann Chua Member since:
2005-07-22

Installed 7.04 on my laptop after using 6.06 since June on my desktop. Big improvement. I'll upgrade the desktop when the next LTS release comes out.

Reply Score: 3

dual monitors
by lqsh on Wed 9th May 2007 01:53 UTC
lqsh
Member since:
2007-01-01

My only complaint is that I couldn't get a secondary display to work well using Nvidia's native driver/config options. Laptop at 1440x900 and secondary display at 1280x1024.

Reply Score: 2

Dell
by WorknMan on Wed 9th May 2007 01:59 UTC
WorknMan
Member since:
2005-11-13

Ubuntu Linux 7.04, which Dell has chosen to headline its desktop Linux foray, has made impressive strides toward claiming a spot on mainstream desktop and server machines

I dunno ... what do you guys think? If a bunch of grandpa Joes start snapping up Linux desktops because they're cheaper than the similarly equipped Windows boxes, I smell a disaster waiting to happen. IMHO, they should wait a few more years before trying to take it mainstream, because they might only get one more shot at it. And if you get a lot of people who try it and it leaves a bad taste in their mouth, you may not be able to convince them to try it again a few years later when it really *is* ready.
What I mean is, there are a lot of people out there who are still convinced that in order to install apps from Linux, you have to compile them from source, or that you have to edit X86Config (or whatever the hell it is) to get a decent resolution. Know why they think that? Because they tried Linux in the past because somebody swore it was the ultimate Windows killer, so they just assume it still is the way it was, even though it isn't.

Edited 2007-05-09 02:01

Reply Score: 5

RE: Dell
by Noremacam on Wed 9th May 2007 02:04 UTC in reply to "Dell"
Noremacam Member since:
2006-03-08

If a bunch of grandpa Joes start snapping up Linux desktops because they're cheaper than the similarly equipped Windows boxes, I smell a disaster waiting to happen.

I think that can be warded off with marketing. Kinda like saying PS2 games won't play on your xbox. I don't think it would be too hard to get customers to understand.

Reply Score: 4

disaster waiting to happen?
by garymax on Wed 9th May 2007 02:09 UTC in reply to "RE: Dell"
garymax Member since:
2006-01-23

If Ubuntu has bitten off a little too much for it to chew and Canonical cannot scale to the level necessary to adequately handle all of the deals and agreements it is making here as of late, it may spell disaster in the near future.

This may be the one and only shot at real Linux adoption by the masses and we cannot afford to mess it up.

I wish the pace were a tad bit slower.

Reply Score: 3

RE: disaster waiting to happen?
by DigitalAxis on Wed 9th May 2007 03:52 UTC in reply to "disaster waiting to happen?"
DigitalAxis Member since:
2005-08-28

I think I have to agree with you on that one. As much as I love Linux, I know precisely what I'm doing (mild sarcasm intended) and exactly what I was getting myself into when I started.

At the moment, people who aren't aware exactly what moving to Linux will entail, are going to get very confused and potentially very turned off, very fast.

There are just enough things that aren't 100% there (or are just different, like how KDE and Gnome look, or package management) that... well, I doubt Dell will be making big front-page announcements to start off. I'm cool with it building up steam and making it to their main deals in a year or so.

Reply Score: 3

Punktyras Member since:
2006-01-07

There are just enough things that aren't 100% there (or are just different, like how KDE and Gnome look, or package management) that...

Yes, they are differnet and I hope they'll stay different. If they're no different, why bother?

Reply Score: 1

Lettherebemorelight Member since:
2005-07-11

This may be the one and only shot at real Linux adoption by the masses and we cannot afford to mess it up.

Hate to break up your RA-RA session with a little dose of reality, but this only one chance of many to come. Thankfully MS will insure this by continuing to aggravate their paying customers in new and innovative ways, thus giving them reasons to explore other options.

Reply Score: 2

garymax Member since:
2006-01-23

This is hardly a "ra-ra" session. This is a dose of reality about the pace of linux adoption.

Reply Score: 1

archiesteel Member since:
2005-07-02

Perhaps, but I think it's erroneous to say that this may be "the only chance Linux has". This could be true if Linux was a commercial product, belonging to a single company, but Linux is a movement as much as an OS, and such movements are extremely resilient.

I see the Dell/Ubuntu agreement as a positive step, but by itself it will not radically transform the Linux landscape. Rather, the change will be incremental, just like every other step in Linux' evolution. And that's fine by me.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: disaster waiting to happen?
by Phlosten on Wed 9th May 2007 12:53 UTC in reply to "disaster waiting to happen?"
Phlosten Member since:
2007-05-09

I'd agree with your comment that the pace should be a little slower. I feel that Ubuntu are just pushing a little too hard and fast and ultimately my experience with newer releases has been a bit negative. As such I have just decided to move all my machines to Debian GNU/Linux. Slow and steady is winning the race for me these days.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Dell
by SlackerJack on Wed 9th May 2007 02:28 UTC in reply to "Dell"
SlackerJack Member since:
2005-11-12

People try Windows and get a punch in the mouth never mind a bad taste.

I'm sure someone who buys a computer for the first time is not going a give a damn about what resolution it's in, my uncle is fine with 1024. some people even like it lower.

Who are this people, no one has said to me anything regarding Linux apps need to be compiled, are you one of them people who picked up Redhat 8 and thought this was linux state today?

I think you are by your "X86Config" statement, since thats been gone for years now. On a serious note, give the new user some credit, the xorg.conf is nowhere near as hard as people make out to edit.

Edited 2007-05-09 02:33

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: Dell
by twitter on Wed 9th May 2007 08:03 UTC in reply to "RE: Dell"
twitter Member since:
2005-07-25

/I think you are by your "X86Config" statement, since thats been gone for years now./

Tell that to Synaptic. The last time I did an update on a fresh 6.x Ubuntu install it b0rked my x.org config completely and dropped me back to 800x600. But hey, I guess it's been "gone for years".

It's been what, 15 years? And they still cannot get the X crap to work decently half the time. That would be funy if it wasn't so damn sad.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Dell
by raver31 on Wed 9th May 2007 08:38 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Dell"
raver31 Member since:
2005-07-06

I call troll... and an amateur one at that...

/I think you are by your "X86Config" statement, since thats been gone for years now./

Tell that to Synaptic. The last time I did an update on a fresh 6.x Ubuntu install it b0rked my x.org config completely and dropped me back to 800x600. But hey, I guess it's been "gone for years".


For a start, there is no 6.x Ubuntu. It is either 6.06 or 6.10. They are named after the month and the year the release went public. Hence Ubuntu 7.04, April 2007.
That can be excused because not everyone was aware of the naming scheme.

The trolling part was saying x86 and xorg are the same thing.
The OP was correct, xfree86 has been gone for year and Ubuntu will only support xorg.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Dell
by dagw on Wed 9th May 2007 09:47 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Dell"
dagw Member since:
2005-07-06

Aren't you being a bit pedantic? Everyone understood that 6.x meant one of the Ubuntu distros that came out in 2006. It's a perfectly acceptable way to write it.

And if you're not super geeky and have been paying attention, getting xfree and x.org confused is also quite understandable. He was obviously talking about the config file for X, and he got the name wrong, big deal.

Calling someone a troll just because he can't remember the name of a config file is not a very good way to treat users. He's experience is most likely valid.

Reply Score: 5

RE[5]: Dell
by SlackerJack on Wed 9th May 2007 10:55 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Dell"
SlackerJack Member since:
2005-11-12

Any up to date Linux user knows that it's Xorg not "xfree", how can you get them mixed up being a every day linux user?

To me it sounds like someone who used Linux 2 years back and only just started using it again, forgetting that xfree is gone. If you've never used Linux before nobody refers to Xorg as xfree now so a new user would not know about xfree.

By the way it's xfree86 for your information.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Dell
by viton on Wed 9th May 2007 11:12 UTC in reply to "RE: Dell"
viton Member since:
2005-08-09

picked up Redhat 8 and thought this was linux state today
So what is the state of linux today?
I using fedora4-6 and spent hours and hours and hours
digging the internet to make things actually work.
And this quest is not yet completed.

So why software autoupdate most likely will break things up?
Now the only update option i try is to install whole tested distributive.
Why i need to edit obscure config files to do simpliest things like enable file share?
(gui part do not work for some reason)
Typical Linux tutorial is frustrating. They said "do this and do that".
But it just do not work because of the difference in distributives and even versions of the same distributive.
Try to count how many "connect to VPN" tutorials exist.
I tried many of them before i found one what works.

This is not what i can call "usable" system.

Edited 2007-05-09 11:14

Reply Score: 0

RE: Dell
by rayiner on Wed 9th May 2007 02:45 UTC in reply to "Dell"
rayiner Member since:
2005-07-06

Ubuntu's X11 autoconfiguration works just fine --- when you have hardware that it likes. It's really a moot point, since these Dell Linux boxes will come fully configured, and there will be no reason to edit anything to change the available resolutions (or even to change the resolution, since nobody uses CRTs anymore).

The configuration issues that matter to average users, assuming a pre-configured machine, is the ease of the following:

- Can you plug in your iPod and have it work? This has been true for several years now.
- Can you plug in an external harddrive and have it work. This has also been true for several years now.
- Can you plug in your factory-issued accessories and have them work. Assuming Dell sells these machines with known-to-work printers, webcams, etc, this will be no problem.
- Can you configure your wifi network? Ubuntu has gotten quite good at this in recent releases, assuming a well-supported network card (which is a given with a pre-configured machine).

Anything else is getting well outside mainstream user territory. The only problem I forsee with Dell's Linux machines is power management for laptops. Linux's laptop power management is just not very good. Indeed, it's one of the main reasons I'm still on my MacBook --- I have yet to find a machine of the same form factor and speed that can get 3.5-4 hours of battery life in Linux.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Dell
by Bending Unit on Wed 9th May 2007 04:57 UTC in reply to "RE: Dell"
Bending Unit Member since:
2005-07-06

No, it's broken. Or it just doesn't like mice.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Dell
by rayiner on Wed 9th May 2007 05:41 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Dell"
rayiner Member since:
2005-07-06

The what now?

Reply Score: 2

CRT's are History! he sez..
by pcdoctor on Wed 9th May 2007 14:08 UTC in reply to "RE: Dell"
pcdoctor Member since:
2007-03-05

"nobody uses CRTs anymore" - wow what a revelation!! how cool is that?!

so what's this big hunka junk sitting in front of me, then??

Your statement won't be true for at least another ten years

Reply Score: 5

RE: Dell
by butters on Wed 9th May 2007 03:51 UTC in reply to "Dell"
butters Member since:
2005-07-08

I dunno ... what do you guys think?

I think you should have a beer with Mark Shuttleworth, because that's pretty much what he thinks, too. That's why I'm sure that the marketing on Dell's website will be very clear. Choosing a PC loaded with Ubuntu will probably be the first thing the customer chooses, before they make their hardware choices. It won't be like the "option" you get now between Vista Ultimate, Premium, Crippled, etc. You'll effectively go to a different section of the site with a different set of options.

The memory of not-so-stellar first impressions won't last very long with Linux because it changes so quickly. Many people currently ditching Windows for Linux had tried Linux a few years ago and were disappointed. Those folks are perhaps the most impressed by distributions like Feisty. I'll make a blanket statement: anyone who briefly tried Linux 3+ years ago and hasn't been following it since will be pretty impressed at how nicely things have come together. Windows users who find that Linux isn't there yet for them will probably give it another look within the next few years.

Desktop Linux just isn't crappy enough anymore for reasonable people to conclude that Linux will never be a viable alternative to Windows. Since when has Jason Brooks been writing such positive reviews of a Linux desktop?

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Dell
by WorknMan on Wed 9th May 2007 04:52 UTC in reply to "RE: Dell"
WorknMan Member since:
2005-11-13

I'll make a blanket statement: anyone who briefly tried Linux 3+ years ago and hasn't been following it since will be pretty impressed at how nicely things have come together.

Yeah, I remember Redhat 8 back around 2002, and there were still people here swearing up and down that it was ready for prime time. Scary when you think about, cuz it wasn't even close ;) I think the last time I gave Linux a go back in the Xandros 2.0 days, which was probably a couple of years ago. Guess I'll give it another try when KDE4 comes out.

Depending upon your age, Grandpa Jones (and for that matter, Grandma Jones) went through World War 2, the Korean War, or Viet Nam. They can easily handle preinstalled Linux. It's easy.

Heh, you've obviously never seen old people try to use computers ;) At least with Windows, they probably have somebody nearby that can show them around. I can see some 70yo geezer hitting Google Groups trying to figure out why one of his peripherals isn't working, cuz you know he's getting no support from the manufacturer.

Edited 2007-05-09 04:53

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Dell
by Soulbender on Wed 9th May 2007 06:15 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Dell"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

"I can see some 70yo geezer hitting Google Groups trying to figure out why one of his peripherals isn't working, cuz you know he's getting no support from the manufacturer. "

Good luck getting support from the manufacturer , regardless of installed OS, if one of your peripherals isn't working.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Dell
by pfsams on Wed 9th May 2007 04:43 UTC in reply to "Dell"
pfsams Member since:
2006-01-05

Depending upon your age, Grandpa Jones (and for that matter, Grandma Jones) went through World War 2, the Korean War, or Viet Nam. They can easily handle preinstalled Linux. It's easy. They may fumble around a little bit at first, just like you did when you were potty training, learning to tie your shoes, or learning to ride your bike. Linux is very easy to use. Your computer has a keyboard, mouse, speakers, and most people can figure it out. Don't Panic!

Reply Score: 3

You know for a fact.....
by budword on Wed 9th May 2007 02:13 UTC
budword
Member since:
2006-06-18

that Dell is going to sell a crippled cheap piece of crap, especially if they are going to target this linux box at the budget market. They sold my ex's Mom a WinXP box with 128MB of ram. You read that right. It was slower than my old pentium 100 Win95 box with 32MB of ram. But hey, it was a 2ghz pentium 4, that at the time cost just under $1000. Dell crippled that machine by being too cheap to include enough ram to make it usable. Dell should be embarrassed. They will do the same thing to Ubuntu, giving new users a very poor first impression of Linux in general. I wish they would just leave well enough alone. This will not go over well, no matter what happens, Linux will come out of this looking poor. First, most people are just going to pay the extra $40 that the windows machine will cost, and install Linux themselves, so sales will be low, if any, and Linux will end up looking bad. Then any machines they do manage to sell will be crippled pieces of ****. Which users not adept enough to install Linux themselves will blame the problems on Linux instead of the crippled computer Dell sold them. Can you imagine a Linux box that comes with a load of crapware installed ? A Linux version of the new "AOL" on your LINUX desktop, yay.... This will not end well. The only place this makes sense is for corporate users who are looking for a supported desktop distro. Funny part is, I don't think any corporate user making those decisions will be stupid enough to 'CHOOSE' Dell support on purpose. Well, maybe they will, at that.. Linus took a hit the day Dell tried to help.

Reply Score: 1

RE: You know for a fact.....
by Noremacam on Wed 9th May 2007 02:39 UTC in reply to "You know for a fact....."
Noremacam Member since:
2006-03-08

FUD.

I highly doubt Dell is going to put crapware on a linux machine; they'd be spitting on the very people they're trying to appeal to; the linux community. Not to mention, adding linux to the desktop is only a small part of a shakeup that Dell is doing to get more exposure. Crapware on the linux desktop would do far more to damage Dell than not selling a linux desktop at all.

Dell may have sold some crappy hardware, but after working in pc repair, I find a surprisingly large amount of people trust them; and if the dollar is right they do sell a decent computer.

I think Dell putting linux on pc's is great. I learned how to use windows long before I learned how to install it/configure it. Why can't linux be the same way? I think it's great that people might have a chance to get working with it first, before learning the technicalities of just installing and configuring it. Getting new people to try it could be so much less painless if configured by the manufacturer to work without blemish with predetermined hardware. Being able to learn how to work around a Linux environment without having to spend hours/days configuring the box to be usable will make exposure to the OS more permeable.

If Dell markets it right, it could be nothing but success for everyone. With the state that Dell is in, something tells me they want to get that right.

Reply Score: 5

RE: You know for a fact.....
by Soulbender on Wed 9th May 2007 04:19 UTC in reply to "You know for a fact....."
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Really? It's a fact? Care to present any real evidence? Other than ranting, that is.

"They sold my ex's Mom a WinXP box with 128MB of ram."

I don't think they actually forced her to buy it and I dont think Dell even does retail sales themselves. So blame the store who sold it to her or her for buying it without knowing what to buy.

Reply Score: 3

RE: You know for a fact.....
by Johann Chua on Wed 9th May 2007 05:47 UTC in reply to "You know for a fact....."
Johann Chua Member since:
2005-07-22

Acer's entry-level laptop that I bought last month had Linpus Linux pre-installed. Came with a measly 512MB of DDR2 RAM. Oh, wait, that's actually pretty good for a low-cost computer.

Reply Score: 3

RE: You know for a fact.....
by snozzberry on Wed 9th May 2007 21:05 UTC in reply to "You know for a fact....."
snozzberry Member since:
2005-11-14

You forgot to mention they ran over your dog and knocked over your lemonade stand.

You don't mention when your ex's mom bought the computer and that makes a difference. Pre-SP1, 128Mb RAM was sufficient to run XP if you weren't a gamer or a graphics/multimedia professional. If she balked at the price while ordering the computer, it's likely that they cut down her memory to make it affordable.

Dell won't be embarrassed, unless they start shipping boxes with the optical/HD drives that have been so problematic for the 2.6.20 kernel in Feisty 7.04. Dell will take a page from Apple and see to it the hardware and OS are synchronized, because their ass will be grass otherwise. It's a no-brainer.

Dell makes low-end crap computers. They also make well-built higher-end desktop/laptop/server systems. The people who bitch the loudest about Dell boxes are invariably the ones who lowballed their purchase.

Reply Score: 2

You can never have enough Ubutu News
by cyclops on Wed 9th May 2007 02:36 UTC
cyclops
Member since:
2006-03-12

@miserj

Unbutu has been successful at capturing a new market of young disappointed web 2.0(sic) generation Windows users and introduced them to Linux Desktop. This is potentially the largest market for *any* distro aiming for the Desktop, and has shown to be more successful than Disto infighting; political motivation.

They have formed a successful community amongst themselves, and their online community through forums is surprisingly healthy.

@Workman

Linux is fun; Linux has never been stronger. It provides the main tools a user could want Media Player; Web Browser; Office Tools that are on par or better than any Microsoft offerings. Hardware support has never been stronger. Old problems are being quickly patched like editing the xorg.conf. Linux+OpenOffice+Firefox+Gnome+Compiz/Beryl is a seriously good combination that can only improve, While Microsoft have shown their hand for the next two years and its falling short of expectations.

There will be not be a mass migration to Ubuntu simply because change is hard. There will be people who try linux and find is not compatible with XXX device, or a hundred minor niggles that Linux users routinely work around...and don't even notice, or struggle to get games; codecs working, or struggle with Linux *stuff* from the package manager to the file stucture to a real multiuser environment, but these people are more likely to try it again.

The strength of Linux as a platform is it evolves constantly. One of the successes of Ubuntu is its managed about a six month release cycle people can actually *see* Linux evolve, can see where Linux has fallen short and corrected itself, and know in six months time it will happen again, and its getting enough press to say look we are new and improved Ubuntu the silly naming highlights a new release.

Edited 2007-05-09 02:42

Reply Score: 5

v One day without Ubuntu
by ssa2204 on Wed 9th May 2007 02:44 UTC
Graphical :
by sb56637 on Wed 9th May 2007 03:29 UTC
sb56637
Member since:
2006-05-11

From the article:
>>>We were happy to find that Ubuntu now offers up a graphical interface for configuring the distribution's Xorg 7.2 X server—every popular distribution ships with such a tool, and we've long lamented the absence of one in Ubuntu.
>>>

What tool are they referring to here?

Reply Score: 1

RE: Graphical :
by SlackerJack on Wed 9th May 2007 04:33 UTC in reply to "Graphical :"
SlackerJack Member since:
2005-11-12

"The new tool, called displayconfig-gtk, is only a few months old at this point, and is not installed by default, but the tool worked well for us in tests"

Reply Score: 4

Ubuntu and Dell
by islander on Wed 9th May 2007 04:03 UTC
islander
Member since:
2007-04-11

Its in dell's every interest to see this move becoming a success.

I dont think they will sabotage it in any way by installing it on sub-performing machines and is a good a time as any to take a risk like this.

1.The interest was there on Ideastorm.

2.Vista is not a hot seller.

3.Wants to get a jump on the new Mac Os before it hits market.

4.Trying to re-invent itself even by making XP machines available for some time still.

The potential weakness is not in the hardware but if tech support is crap.I don't think an opportunity like this will come again.

Edited 2007-05-09 04:07

Reply Score: 3

RE: Ubuntu and Dell
by negativity on Wed 9th May 2007 12:14 UTC in reply to "Ubuntu and Dell "
negativity Member since:
2006-02-23

I believe Dell wants to fight Macs and the rest of the competition with the Ubuntu Linux offering as well. The difference is that Linux can be used to fight at the high end of the market in things like "workstations" or power-horses, and at the same time, they can provide cheaper and stabler platforms as well.

If it works out, I am sure Dell could extend it to worldwide adoption, where such characteristics of Linux could be better exploited, like in poorer countries, for instance.

Reply Score: 3

v YAWN
by Babi Asu on Wed 9th May 2007 05:45 UTC
RE: YAWN
by Johann Chua on Wed 9th May 2007 05:50 UTC in reply to "YAWN"
Johann Chua Member since:
2005-07-22

Go to sleep already, then, so we don't have to read any more of your pathetic whining. Don't think Ubuntu is interesting? Don't read the f--king article. Simple, ne?

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: YAWN
by Babi Asu on Wed 9th May 2007 08:28 UTC in reply to "RE: YAWN"
Babi Asu Member since:
2006-02-11

YAWN is stand for (Y)et (A)nother (UU)buntu (N)ews. W = Double U. How fit, huh? And it not just me, even Ubuntu users theirselves are embarassed by this endless boring news. But still, among them there are zealots that mod you up to the max and mod me down.

Edited 2007-05-09 08:30

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: YAWN
by SlackerJack on Wed 9th May 2007 08:42 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: YAWN"
SlackerJack Member since:
2005-11-12

Makes a change from all the Vista article's, Ubuntu needs all the positive news it can get at the moment. Again if you don't like it, don't read it it's really that simple.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: YAWN
by archiesteel on Wed 9th May 2007 14:38 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: YAWN"
archiesteel Member since:
2005-07-02

You're not getting modded down out of zealotry, you're being modded down because such useless whining is off-topic. As others have said, if the news don't interest you, don't read them (and don't comment on them).

Personally, it was refreshing to read a *good* Ubuntu article for a change...the past few ones we had were not that interesting.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: YAWN
by Babi Asu on Wed 9th May 2007 15:21 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: YAWN"
Babi Asu Member since:
2006-02-11

It seems true in linux articles, but if you bash/troll MS in MS articles, you'll get mod up to the max instantly.

While there are very few poeple that have the similar principal as you do, most of the rest are linux zealots that only know how to install program via synaptic click-click, and even they don't know how to compile with simple step ./configure && make && make install.

So basically, a post will be:
- Modded up for praising linux/bashing windows
- Modded down for bashing linux/praising windows.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: YAWN
by cyclops on Wed 9th May 2007 15:49 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: YAWN"
cyclops Member since:
2006-03-12

Using the term "zealots" will always get you modded down by me.


./configure && make && make install

although useful to know. If your package-manager/repository does not have your particular package; Your wanting a cutting edge package yet to be included in package-manager/repository; Running a development version of the package from cvs/svn.

In reality there is little reason to do so.

Currently I have only one package that I compile from source, and that is gftp, simply because the release version poor. I do not do "make install" becuase I do not want cruft appearing on my system.

If you want to be modded up make *better* posts.

Edited 2007-05-09 16:03

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: YAWN
by archiesteel on Wed 9th May 2007 15:59 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: YAWN"
archiesteel Member since:
2005-07-02

Doesn't matter what others do, just try to stay on-topic yourself.

Reply Score: 4

RE: YAWN
by Soulbender on Wed 9th May 2007 06:16 UTC in reply to "YAWN"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Yeah, it's almost as annoying as the endless Vista news...

Reply Score: 2

The State of Ubuntu 7.04 Is _Strong_
by ningo on Wed 9th May 2007 06:47 UTC
ningo
Member since:
2006-02-22

Strong, as in 'The Darks Side is strrrroooong in you!'?

Reply Score: 0

Isolationist Member since:
2006-05-28

We don't do humour on here ;)

Reply Score: 2

And since when Windows was so effortless?
by Radek on Wed 9th May 2007 07:47 UTC
Radek
Member since:
2007-05-08

All versions of Windows had been having various troubles and quirks. I remember the hell I had been having configuring a lan network in W98 years ago. When you search forums you will see there are always problems with something including Windows.

Linux distro like latest Ubuntu will make some troubles for some persons. But it's like saying the sky is blue - there are always problems for some. So please give the "Linux is too hard" argument a rest. My mother could learn to use Ubuntu 6.06 in free days without any experience before. It's difficult for people which have learned mechanically to use say Windows to switch. But they will have to learn something new anyway as even MS' products change.

Reply Score: 3

ubuntu fanboys
by csousa on Wed 9th May 2007 08:10 UTC
csousa
Member since:
2006-02-04

If you are a ubuntu regular user, please, tell me:

What unique/usefull feature gave us ubuntu (that debian don't had)?

P.S.
If you gave me only one I will be more happy :-)

Edited 2007-05-09 08:15

Reply Score: 2

RE: ubuntu fanboys
by jaylaa on Wed 9th May 2007 09:02 UTC in reply to "ubuntu fanboys"
jaylaa Member since:
2006-01-17

If you are a ubuntu regular user, please, tell me:
What unique/usefull feature gave us ubuntu (that debian don't had)?


The latest Gnome. Want more?

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: ubuntu fanboys
by raver31 on Wed 9th May 2007 11:41 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: ubuntu fanboys"
raver31 Member since:
2005-07-06

You have searched for packages that names contain gnome-desktop in suite(s) unstable


Try again....
The difference is that Ubuntu is SUPPORTED, Unstable Debian is not.

Reply Score: 5

RE[4]: ubuntu fanboys
by DeadFishMan on Wed 9th May 2007 13:31 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: ubuntu fanboys"
DeadFishMan Member since:
2006-01-09

Please correct me if I am wrong but isn´t Ubuntu just a snapshot freeze of Sid, being that the supported version is the LTS only which can be as long in the tooth as Debian stable itself? Ubuntu *IS* Sid with some sugar added on top for all purposes.

Don´t get me wrong, but there are better distros out there. Ubuntu is just enjoying its momentum.

Reply Score: 5

RE[5]: ubuntu fanboys
by raver31 on Thu 10th May 2007 08:01 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: ubuntu fanboys"
raver31 Member since:
2005-07-06

No, Ubuntu is not just a snapshot of Sid. Ubuntu is a snapshot of Sid, but with the backing of Canonical.
Sid is Sid the unstable, as in Toy Story. He was a little unpredictable, therefore using Sid could have unpredictable results on your system.

Ubuntu take Sid, stabilise it, and work with it for a set amount of time, usually 18 months for a normal edition, and up to 60 months for the LTS. Any improvements get backported to the LTS during this time, and to the normal one for its operational time window.

Should you get a problem with any piece of software in the main repos, contact Canonical and you will get the help you needed.

You cannot do this with Debian.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: ubuntu fanboys
by da_Chicken on Thu 10th May 2007 11:29 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: ubuntu fanboys"
da_Chicken Member since:
2006-01-01

No, Ubuntu is not just a snapshot of Sid. Ubuntu is a snapshot of Sid, but with the backing of Canonical. [...] Should you get a problem with any piece of software in the main repos, contact Canonical and you will get the help you needed.

You cannot do this with Debian.


I guess you're talking about paid support from Canonical -- otherwise your comment makes no sense. There are companies that offer paid support for Debian users.
http://www.debian.org/consultants/

If you have a problem with a particular piece of software in Debian, you report your problem in the Bug Tracking System (Debian has some cool tools to make this easy for users) and developers will soon fix the problem. Etch and Lenny get also security updates that are backported from Sid, and Sid gets its security updates from upstream (as long as Sid has the latest upstream software packaged).

There's also a backports repo (unofficial but maintained by official developers) that makes newer versions of software available for Etch users.

OTOH, the universe and multiverse repos are not officially supported in Ubuntu. So Debian actually offers better support than Ubuntu because all the software in Debian repos is officially supported (via the BTS & security updates).

Sid is Sid the unstable, as in Toy Story. He was a little unpredictable, therefore using Sid could have unpredictable results on your system.

This part of your comment I can agree with. I'm currently experimenting by running a mixed Lenny/Sid desktop system and so far there hasn't been any big problems. But I try to keep the Sid portion of my system as small as possible because there's a rumour going around that Sid is a kid who likes to break toys. ;-)

Reply Score: 4

RE[7]: ubuntu fanboys
by raver31 on Thu 10th May 2007 12:52 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: ubuntu fanboys"
raver31 Member since:
2005-07-06

Yes, I was indeed talking about paid support. Ubuntu release a version of Linux that they themselves will offer support for. This is important not for me or you, or the majority of the people who frequent these pages.
But, it is important for the "Joe Business-Suit" who needs somewhere to fallback for help, should he get stuck.

I know that there are companies offering Debian support for a fee, but some people cannot put two and two together, instead they like the suuport to come from the company that sold them the system, Ie WIndows from Microsoft and Solaris from Sun.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: ubuntu fanboys
by jaylaa on Wed 9th May 2007 12:00 UTC in reply to "RE: ubuntu fanboys"
jaylaa Member since:
2006-01-17

>>Debian:
>>http://packages.debian.org/cgi-bin/search_packages.pl?keywords=gnom.....

>>Ubuntu:
>>http://packages.ubuntu.com/cgi-bin/search_packages.pl?keywords=gnom.....

Sure, now. What about just a few months ago when I was waiting for Etch to go stable so that 2.16 would get into unstable? Or 3 months from now when I have 2.20 the day it comes out on my Ubuntu install?

So I should have been more specific when said why I use Ubuntu and not Debian. With Ubuntu I always get the latest Gnome. It's great that Debian unstable has 2.18 now, but It's certainly not guaranteed to have any given Gnome release when it comes out. Nor is any other distro besides Forsight Linux.

Edited 2007-05-09 12:04

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: ubuntu fanboys
by pllb on Wed 9th May 2007 12:54 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: ubuntu fanboys"
pllb Member since:
2007-04-30

"It's great that Debian unstable has 2.18 now, but It's certainly not guaranteed to have any given Gnome release when it comes out."

Ubuntu being around tomorrow is not guaranteed, after all it's run by a corporation. Debian on the other hand is and has been run by over 1000 volunteers since the beginning.

Edited 2007-05-09 12:59

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: ubuntu fanboys
by apoclypse on Wed 9th May 2007 13:05 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: ubuntu fanboys"
apoclypse Member since:
2007-02-17

That is true to a point. However, that only applies to the name, everything else is opensourced and can be forked at any point. Canonical gains nothing by taking the name and running, they will isolate the community that they have worked so hard to grow.

Oh BTW, upstart is another thing Ubuntu offers that debian doesn't, though I've heard the Debian devs are considering it. How about regular releases, I'd rather not wait almost two years before stable releases. An easy and accessible community without the politics, a lot of ubuntu users are former debian users who were turned off by the debian community, which can be less than friendly for newbs. Unfortunately, I've seen the same thing starting to creep into Ubuntu, and I have been guilty of this myself when some idiot suggest changing the linux files system to something more "sane" for the millionth time. I don't know if brown is a feature but I'm putting it in here anyway. ;) .

Edited 2007-05-09 13:05

Reply Score: 2

RE: ubuntu fanboys
by SlackerJack on Wed 9th May 2007 09:19 UTC in reply to "ubuntu fanboys"
SlackerJack Member since:
2005-11-12

I'll bite.

1. Add/Remove manager

2. Restriction manager

3. Migration Options

4. A easy way to install codecs

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: ubuntu fanboys
by csousa on Wed 9th May 2007 11:30 UTC in reply to "RE: ubuntu fanboys"
csousa Member since:
2006-02-04

Are you joking, right ?

In Debian you can't do exactlly the same ? why ?

Edited 2007-05-09 11:35

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: ubuntu fanboys
by raver31 on Wed 9th May 2007 11:42 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: ubuntu fanboys"
raver31 Member since:
2005-07-06

You cannot do these things in Debian because they are Ubuntu Add-ons.

Reply Score: 4

RE: ubuntu fanboys
by erlingre on Wed 9th May 2007 09:24 UTC in reply to "ubuntu fanboys"
erlingre Member since:
2006-12-05

Less work to get a simple to use desktop. Ubuntu is more polished right away. This is important for my users (teachers and pupils). 7.04 is very close to good enough for many desktop users.

I also use Debian on servers for its simplicity and stability.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: ubuntu fanboys
by csousa on Wed 9th May 2007 11:33 UTC in reply to "RE: ubuntu fanboys"
csousa Member since:
2006-02-04

If you consider Debian I can accept, but is not a unique feature in linux distros (arch, suse, fedora, foresight,...)

Reply Score: 1

RE: ubuntu fanboys
by netpython on Wed 9th May 2007 09:35 UTC in reply to "ubuntu fanboys"
netpython Member since:
2005-07-06

What unique/usefull feature gave us ubuntu (that debian don't had)?

sid on a plate accessible for everyone

Edited 2007-05-09 09:35

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: ubuntu fanboys
by csousa on Wed 9th May 2007 11:34 UTC in reply to "RE: ubuntu fanboys"
csousa Member since:
2006-02-04

Why, sid in not accessible by editing /etc/apt/sources.list ? Give me a break...

Ubuntu don't add nothing to open source, I repeat NOTHING, only troubles in Debian realm.And Linux don't need the "polishment" (if that matter to you take the "all thing" - Windows, after all is not expensive).
Do you care about unique features see:

-Red Hat (selinux,middleware)
-Sun (java,opensolaris)
-OpenBSD

Edited 2007-05-09 11:43

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: ubuntu fanboys
by snozzberry on Wed 9th May 2007 21:37 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: ubuntu fanboys"
snozzberry Member since:
2005-11-14

Breezy convinced me to switch from Debian, and it's currently running on one laptop and three desktops (one of which is a Mythbox). I'd call that adding something.

Reply Score: 2

RE: ubuntu fanboys
by tristan on Wed 9th May 2007 11:49 UTC in reply to "ubuntu fanboys"
tristan Member since:
2006-02-01

If you are a ubuntu regular user, please, tell me:

What unique/usefull feature gave us ubuntu (that debian don't had)?


"All right. But apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system..."

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: ubuntu fanboys
by TusharG on Thu 10th May 2007 05:32 UTC in reply to "RE: ubuntu fanboys"
TusharG Member since:
2005-07-06

What unique/usefull feature gave us ubuntu (that debian don't had)?


Well i will say Ubuntu is slik and for new people it doesn't confuse what packages needs to install for desktop computer? Also it has consistant theme accross the ubuntu icons/colors/menus which gives a soothing feel.
While appreciating ubuntu I dont want to forget and bottom line... Ubuntu exists because of Debian... debian is like a God of all distros... but for new people Ubuntu is best start... What Debian never managed to do Ubuntu has done in short time... that is attracting people to use Linux!

Reply Score: 1

RE: ubuntu fanboys
by deb2006 on Wed 9th May 2007 11:51 UTC in reply to "ubuntu fanboys"
deb2006 Member since:
2006-06-26

- a stripped down release with a few applications
- a brushed up GUI
- regular and _reliable_ release dates
- focus: desktop

I am no Ubuntu fanboy, but Ubuntu has only taken Debian and has made a unique desktop of it. I personally think Debian should have done it for years, but the y didn't do it. I'd still prefer Ubuntu to be a Debian desktop project ...

Reply Score: 5

The state of Ubuntu is overrated
by moleskine on Wed 9th May 2007 08:40 UTC
moleskine
Member since:
2005-11-05

Ubuntu is an excellent distro as I know from my own installs of it and I'm sure that 7.04 is an excellent example of it. Even so, this seemingly endless parade of wow-fab-amazing-cool articles on Mark Shuttleworth News, sorry OSNews, isn't really doing anyone any favours.

There are plenty of other Linux distros that also do what Ubuntu does and do it extremely well, too. Distros like PCLinuxOS, Fedora, Mandriva or SuSE. Some even manage things that Ubuntu cannot do. Configuration tools are the obvious example. While I cannot speak for the others, SuSE's config tools in the form of YaST are streets and whole autoroutes ahead of the Debian-based set.

This isn't a matter of patting yourself on the back, saying "Ubuntu's done it" and then going off for a long siesta. In this game you're only as good as your last release and Ubuntu still has a great deal of work to do. It's a young company and it's still a small one, in fact tiny by most standards. It doesn't yet have any presence (worth the name, anyway) in the enterprise market. And it still has to crack some of the big What If's around desktop Linux.

One rather large What If is what if my installation goes wrong? No gui or Windows-style control panels for you, my son. Not even YaST. It's text-editing config files, most likely. For newcomers, the difficulty of dealing with Linux under the bonnet is something no review ever seems to cover.

So I wish Ubuntu all the very best. It's just that witless praise helps no one.

Reply Score: 4

raver31 Member since:
2005-07-06

Think so ?

try this for fanboyism....

http://digg.com/users/raver31/news/dugg

Reply Score: 1

Re:RE[2]: ubuntu fanboys
by Bit_Rapist on Wed 9th May 2007 14:21 UTC
Bit_Rapist
Member since:
2005-11-13

Ubuntu don't add nothing to open source, I repeat NOTHING,

I'd wager it added some users, me included.

only troubles in Debian realm.

LOL. I always laugh when I read this kind of thing, its like most of the people 'preaching' open source don't even get it themselves.

And Linux don't need the "polishment" (if that matter to you take the "all thing" - Windows, after all is not expensive).

Yes it should stay in the dark ages and never improve, why by god more people might start using it when it gets better! Can't have that!

Reply Score: 5

There was a time...
by pllb on Wed 9th May 2007 14:21 UTC
pllb
Member since:
2007-04-30

"That is true to a point. However, that only applies to the name, everything else is opensourced and can be forked at any point. Canonical gains nothing by taking the name and running, they will isolate the community that they have worked so hard to grow."

Everything else is from debian with the exception of the gnome packages. Also, there was a time when redhat was free similar to how ubuntu is. And to be honest, Redhat was a fine distro back then! It was actually the first one I tried. Now however, redhat = $$$ and Fedora = Free. Who's to say the same thing won't happen to Ubuntu? Canonical IS a business and in the business world it's always about the money...even when it's not about the money...it's about the money =)

Edited 2007-05-09 14:26

Reply Score: 1

The State of Ubuntu 7.04 Is Strong...
by jello on Wed 9th May 2007 14:56 UTC
jello
Member since:
2006-08-08

Not on my laptop.

As long the 64bit version doesn't even finishes to boot from CD I don't care how strong it is elsewhere ;)

What I don't get is why there are no drivers that have 2 parts: one part is the one that talks to the hardware and has a open unified interface (this part could even be closed source binary).
The 2nd part could be the software that connects the open interface to the OS driver interface (suppose mostly Windows).

This way open source driver programmer can program the 2nd stage for their beloved OS without the need of diving too much into these things.

Maybe I don't get it (why we don't have this in place) because I'm not a driver programmer ;)

Reply Score: 1

cyclops Member since:
2006-03-12

@jello

what are you on about. I assume you are talking about userspace drivers. although I'm certain if you can't explain what you mean, your not fit to make any compassion between OS's, or would gain from an explanation a trip to google would have given you.

If you 64bit copy of Ubuntu does not work. This is not Ubuntu's help forum. Do not try and self-diagnose the problem with half-baked technobable.

My advise is short if Ubuntu has not worked for you, post what happened not what you think is happening on the forum, and if its not resolved there, file a bug in their bugzilla.

Do not spend a long time on it, Linux has many choices take advantage of them. Fendora looks interesting. repeat above Fendora.

Reply Score: 1

jello Member since:
2006-08-08

@cyclops
I said I'm not a driver programmer, so please take your personal attacks elsewhere.

Because this topic is about the state of ubuntu, I can talk about the state of ubuntu on my hardware, can I not? If I can't do it, then an admin should tell me so; not you.

BTW: it's Fedora not Fendora.

Reply Score: 0

cyclops Member since:
2006-03-12

@jello

I said I'm not a driver programmer, so please take your personal attacks elsewhere.


The reply was civil, but I will go further do no even try and talk about something you do not know about. It reflects badly on yourself.

Maybe you are ignoring the fact that he might have a laptop...


I would be astonished if a modern laptops today do not come with *all* kinds of ways of connecting wireless devices. USB/Firewire/pcmcia

Edited 2007-05-09 19:18

Reply Score: 1

snozzberry Member since:
2005-11-14

I would be astonished if a modern laptops today do not come with *all* kinds of ways of connecting wireless devices. USB/Firewire/pcmcia

http://linux-wless.passys.nl/ Find me one FW wifi device. One.

Reply Score: 1

archiesteel Member since:
2005-07-02

Did you use the "Verify CD" tool on the LiveCD? Did MD5 sums match?

Remember that you can try the Alternate Install CD if you're having problems with the LiveCD. You should also consider installing the 32-bit version if you can't get the 64-bit version to install. Personally, I tried both the 64-bit and 32-bit versions on my AMD Turion64 laptop, and I didn't notice any real difference in performance (except perhaps for MP3 encoding...)

It's generally less of a hassle to go with 32-bit, especially since some proprietary technologies (Flash, audio and video codecs) are not available in 64-bit.

Reply Score: 3

leech Member since:
2006-01-10

I decided to go with Debian Sid 64-bit.

Surprisingly enough, Debian's 64bit actually has things that Ubuntu's 64-bit does not. Important things like Wine and nspluginwrapper are already packaged.

With Wine they used a patch, though from reading the bug report it was kind of a hack. But they did get Wine packaged for 64bit. Unfortunately it's an older version of Wine, but that's okay since I don't use it that often. On the other hand, the flash plugin I do use quite often.

Also I haven't had ANY codec problems with 64bit Debian. In fact all of them worked out of the box since they install the proper gstreamer packages by default.

I never even had to install w32codecs. wmv and the apple quicktime movies work fine.

Reply Score: 5

archiesteel Member since:
2005-07-02

Okay, maybe I should give 64-bit another try at some point. The last time I did was a year and a half ago, so it seems things have improved since then.

Reply Score: 2

snozzberry Member since:
2005-11-14

There are kernel problems in 2.6.20 which are not strictly speaking Ubuntu's fault. These problems have to do with faulty detection of certain newer brands of optical drives, USB devices, and SATA/PATA drives.

They are solvable; I had these problems with a Dell GX260 and was able to fix it from advice given on ubuntuforums.org. I blame Canonical for assuming kernel.org was going to rigorously test compatibility for them; owners of tv tuner cards who watched kernel patches break audio support for their chipsets last year know too well how little of a priority testing is for the kernel maintainers.

Go to ubuntuforums.org and search the forums for solutions; you will likely find the one that fits you.

As for going with 64 bit releases, the argument for desktop users is pretty slim right now. Closed source plugins like Flash are all 32 bit and will not talk to the 64-bit browsers installed on your system; the hack around this is to install the 32 bit version of the browser and reconfigure your system to use it instead. Benchmarks indicate negligible speed differences between running natively in 64 bit mode and 32 bit mode for desktop users.

Reply Score: 1

startxjeff Member since:
2006-09-29

Regarding 64bit browser and Flash9. A simple solution worked for me. 64bit OS users with a 64bit Firefox browser can use the nspluginwrapper to utilize Flash9 from inside 64bit Firefox. seamless. (it'll work until Flash is GPL'd later this year).

I use a 64bit OS as my desktop, I use a 64bit browser, and Flash9.so without resorting to a 32bit browser kludge and it works just fine - thank you. =)

nspluginwrapper is now in sid, and will likely be in the next Ubuntu release since they polish the work of the Debian developers.

Reply Score: 1

snozzberry Member since:
2005-11-14

I don't know what's sweeter: a plugin wrapper that crosses architectures (and potentially offers hope for Intel Mac users needing to use PPC-only plugins) or Flash going GPL. Good news all around.

Reply Score: 1

hamster Member since:
2006-10-06

"it'll work until Flash is GPL'd later this year). "

Where did you get that from..? Flash tool Flex is going MPL

Reply Score: 2

JackL
Member since:
2007-05-07

Not that I would have anything against this distro but it is a liitle bit irritating to heare every here and there haw ideal it is - PLEASE - look at google summer of code projects to see selfcritic which makes it more human close... and when you will be there already, maybe you will be the one to help them to become first linux distro spread to the masses

Reply Score: 1

Great but...
by pedroeloy on Wed 9th May 2007 15:47 UTC
pedroeloy
Member since:
2005-07-06

My wireless and wired connections don't work (RealTek 8168 and ipw3945).

So i'm back to windows again.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Great but...
by cyclops on Wed 9th May 2007 16:02 UTC in reply to "Great but..."
cyclops Member since:
2006-03-12

"My wireless and wired connections don't work (RealTek 8168 and ipw3945).

So i'm back to windows again."

Ignoring the fact that this is off-topic and should be posted in the Ubuntu forums.

Ignoring the fact that this hardware can be reaplaced cheaply with hardware a simple search can guarantee works.

The RealTek 816X chipset has Open-Firmware available to it. http://rtl8181.sourceforge.net/

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Great but...
by jello on Wed 9th May 2007 18:30 UTC in reply to "RE: Great but..."
jello Member since:
2006-08-08

cyclops wrote:
> Ignoring the fact that this hardware can be reaplaced cheaply
> with hardware a simple search can guarantee works.

Maybe you are ignoring the fact that he might have a laptop...

Edited 2007-05-09 18:31

Reply Score: 2

RE: Great but...
by leech on Wed 9th May 2007 17:59 UTC in reply to "Great but..."
leech Member since:
2006-01-10

Both of those should be able to work without problems. Especially the ipw3945. I installed Ubuntu 6.10 on my brother-in-law's laptop and it worked out of the box.

I've also never had any issues with any RealTek hardware that wasn't actually hardware related.

Reply Score: 4

The issue as I see it...
by Caspian on Wed 9th May 2007 21:53 UTC
Caspian
Member since:
2006-01-01

The issue as I see it is not how ready linux is, not how ready the customer is either, but when will we take a chance?

One can say that linux isn't ready for the desktop because of X or Y or Z or A^123, the fact is, we could do that forever. Was windows ready for the desktop back in the 3.11 days? Not really, but it is now, not because it's any better (it is,) but because people have learned to deal with it.

The same thing will happen for Linux, people will learn to deal with the better patching processes, the free software, getting their software from one simple program, having multiple choices, some not working so well, some working great. The two operating systems are quiet different.

Then there is OSX. The only reason osx is ready for the desktop is because apple is in control of the hardware, although, some independent developers are trying to change that, and thanks to them, I can run OSx86 on my main machine while I type this on my macbook. Is Linux ready to compete with the other two major players? Sure! But like poker, I don't think they are all playing the same type of poker. All three will succeed, and I wouldn't mind seeing a 33/33/33 some day. Will it happen? Perhaps, is it likely? Not really. ;)

Reply Score: 5