Linked by Thom Holwerda on Thu 31st May 2007 07:28 UTC
Talk, Rumors, X Versus Y At the D5 conference yesterday evening (CET), an historic joint interview with Steve Jobs and Bill Gates took place. They were interviewed by the WSJ's Walt Mossberg and Kara Swisher. Gates: "I admire Steve's taste. And that's not a joke." Jobs: "We've kept our marriage secret for over a decade now." You can find transcripts of the unscripted event here and here, while the AllThingsD website has started posting segments in video of the event as well.
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deb2006
Member since:
2006-06-26

Huh? I thought the idea was selling people overpriced hardware - which they have done quite successfully over the years.

Reply Score: 4

Laurence Member since:
2007-03-26

"

Huh? I thought the idea was selling people overpriced hardware - which they have done quite successfully over the years.
"

Though it maybe more expensive, you essentially get what you pay for (ie not a Dell-like system that will die in about 12 months).

Edited 2007-05-31 09:09

Reply Score: 5

deb2006 Member since:
2006-06-26

Believe me, that's a myth. The quality of a Dell system is by no means worse or better than an Apple system or a SONY system.

You pay for the myth and the advertisement. And maybe an extra Dollar for Steve Jobs (since he's only earning a Dollar every year - poor guy).

Reply Score: 5

Laurence Member since:
2007-03-26

"

The quality of a Dell system is by no means worse or better than an Apple system or a SONY system.
"

Then you seriously haven't opened up a Dell desktop. I've serviced both Dell and Macs and personally I wouldn't even compare to two in terms of quality of components

Reply Score: 5

A.H. Member since:
2005-11-11

"I've serviced both Dell and Macs and personally I wouldn't even compare to two in terms of quality of components"


American components, Russian Components, ALL MADE IN TAIWAN!

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120591/quotes

Edited 2007-05-31 15:30

Reply Score: 2

siebharinn Member since:
2005-07-06

"Then you seriously haven't opened up a Dell desktop. I've serviced both Dell and Macs and personally I wouldn't even compare to two in terms of quality of components"

I have had a Dell Precision workstation for a little over a year. It ran XP for the first ten months; Vista for the past four. I have never had a single problem with it. Not one.

I bought a 17" Macbook Pro 2 weeks ago. In that time, I have had it kernel panic twice and completely lock up once.

A statistical anomaly, perhaps?

Reply Score: 1

Matt24 Member since:
2005-07-23

Quote : 'I bought a 17" Macbook Pro 2 weeks ago. In that time, I have had it kernel panic twice and completely lock up once.

A statistical anomaly, perhaps?'

I would rather call it the typical statistical MS fanboy lying.

Reply Score: 0

Mkane Member since:
2007-05-01

Like I said anything about a Mac crashing etc... is the work of evil MS!

Mac fanboys need to get their heads out of Jobs..well you know.

Reply Score: 1

siebharinn Member since:
2005-07-06

"I would rather call it the typical statistical MS fanboy lying."

It's this sort of heart warming response that kept me from buying a Mac for as long as I did.

I'm hardly an MS fan boy. I'm writing this now from a Macbook, I have a Windows workstation and a Linux file server. I'm a Rails fanboy, maybe. An Emacs fanboy. But not MS. And not Apple.

Reply Score: 3

Laurence Member since:
2007-03-26

"

I have had a Dell Precision workstation for a little over a year. It ran XP for the first ten months; Vista for the past four. I have never had a single problem with it. Not one.

I bought a 17" Macbook Pro 2 weeks ago. In that time, I have had it kernel panic twice and completely lock up once.

A statistical anomaly, perhaps?
"

No, more like the words of someone confusing software issues as hardware issues. ;-)

Reply Score: 3

siebharinn Member since:
2005-07-06

"No, more like the words of someone confusing software issues as hardware issues. ;-)"

An issue is an issue. A panic is a panic. My Mac has had issues. My Precision has not.

Since Apple makes a big deal about the quality of their machines being higher because they do the hardware *and* software, I'm not sure it matters in any case. Apple is responsible either way. At least Dell and Microsoft could point fingers at each other; Apple has no one to point to but themselves.

Reply Score: 1

Tyr. Member since:
2005-07-06

I bought a 17" Macbook Pro 2 weeks ago. In that time, I have had it kernel panic twice and completely lock up once.

A statistical anomaly, perhaps?


Definately not normal. I had some panics on my mini recently and I found out it doesn't like usb mass storage devices connected through a hub. So now I connect them directly and it's back to its rock-stable self :-)

Reply Score: 2

Rayz Member since:
2006-06-24

Kernel panics and lockups can be caused by faulty hardware, but I'm not so sure in your case. My first guess would be a dodgy driver as the cause.

Reply Score: 1

GCrain Member since:
2005-07-11

No I don't believe you. Dell has had some good computers in the past, likewise, Apple has had some bad ones. The newer Dell's that are standard where I work are junk and are always having powersupply issues.

Dell Continues to Take Market Share Beating
http://www.osnews.com/story.php/17736/Dell-Continues-to-Take-Market...

Because of their high quality?

Reply Score: 4

l3v1 Member since:
2005-07-06

I second this. Where I work we ordered fairly high priced (mildly put) Dells a few months ago. The freaking fans on everything are all having hard time functioning in many of them and producing wonderful sounds. The mice and keyboards are about the worst quality ones I've ever seen.

Reply Score: 2

steverez1 Member since:
2006-12-06

Dell's Business service is the best I have seen. when I call support for warrenty issues they will take my word for it (Instead of spending 3 hours trying different tests to make sure the hardware is broke before they do anything like HP) I have all ready had situations where Dell shipped parts from Texas to Wisconsin in 6 hours for a low end Poweredge server

Reply Score: 1

Xaero_Vincent Member since:
2006-08-18

It true.

My Dell is over four years old and still running strong.

If anyone has a worser qaulity product it would a Apple.

http://www.appledefects.com/

Reply Score: 1

Mkane Member since:
2007-05-01

You now Bill Gates, myself, you and MS created that site just to hurt Apple!

Reply Score: 0

helf Member since:
2005-07-06

I have a Dell thats several years old. was a p3 667mhz, I upgraded it, using and adapter, to a 1.4 tualatin. Its been one of my best machines... But it's an OLD Dell. I wouldn't give you a penny for any of the new machines. I've had 3 newer ones, all p4s, and they all died after about 18-24months.

I've also had to work on a lot of newer machines... The motherboards conk out and the powersupplies fail quite often ;) agai, this is in my experience.

Reply Score: 2

tryphcycle Member since:
2006-02-16

"It true.

My Dell is over four years old and still running strong.

If anyone has a worser qaulity product it would a Apple. "


Yea... Ok... Sure... We beleive you! Next time you are in a apple store. Go open one of those new Xeon Mac towers and tell us all what you see! QUALITY... the inside of a mac is just a beautiful as the outside... maybe enve more!

Reply Score: 1

DigitalAxis Member since:
2005-08-28

But how RELIABLE is it? How long does it last, how well does it perform?

Reply Score: 2

Governa Member since:
2006-04-09

@ Xaero

Why don't you publish some official info from a consumer organization? Anyone can post a biased website like that. I could tell people to go and check http://www.ihatedell.net/ for example. ;)

Please go and check what the latest Consumer Reports has say about hardware quality (surprise, surprise, Apple has the best scores and the less % of machines needing repair).

http://www.consumerreports.org (requires registration)

If you don't want to register, you can read it all over the web. Here is one example:

http://www.macobserver.com/article/2003/05/30.1.shtml

:-)

Reply Score: 3

camo r Member since:
2005-08-26

In the end all fanboys are IDIOTS!

That interview just put together the two men behind both fanboy factions and all they did was compliment each other and laugh while making money off your freaking backs!

It's a known fact that aapl and msft make money off each other, so whats the beef with you guys? Live with your individual choices and shut-up.

The big boys have spoken and it seems that they like each other.

Reply Score: 2

Mkane Member since:
2007-05-01

Macs are behind the PC when it comes to hardware. This is a fact that is not debatable by Mac fanboys. The PC is pushing tech while the Mac is just sleek and over priced for what you get.

Without the iPod Apple would be close to death. Macs are not going to save Apple. It was the iPod that saved Apple.

Apple is going more and more towards a software company. I believe in the near future Apple OS will be released to generic hardware. For all you Mac fanboys out there who say this will never happen let me remind you that "if" I had said four years ago that Apple would start using Intel chips you would have said this would never happen.

The bottom line is the Mac is behind the PC but yet Apple wants to charge a price as if it's on the same level as the PC. Without OSX and the sleek looks the Macs are just plain PC's. Macs do not have SLI, Crossfire, EAX, etc.... and when compared to the PC they look very bad.

Spin all you want fanboys but the fact is your beloved Mac is less than 4% of the market share and it's not going to get much better unless OSX is released to generic hardware.

The PC I'm typing on right now blows away the best iMac. If I put OSX on my PC it would out perform Apple's Macs. And just for your imformation fanboys I build PC's and I use top quality parts.

Oh by the way fanboys what sound chipset is used in Macs? The local Mac genius could not answer this question for me. LOL!

The future of Apple is the iPod and software. Doubt my words? Why did Apple delay the updated OSX for the iPhone? Hummm?

Edited 2007-05-31 17:00

Reply Score: 2

BluenoseJake Member since:
2005-08-11

"Oh by the way fanboys what sound chipset is used in Macs? The local Mac genius could not answer this question for me. LOL! "

All that says is that your Local Mac Genius isn't all he is cracked up to be, or that he doesn't care, because it just works(tm)

Reply Score: 2

Mkane Member since:
2007-05-01

LOL! The "it just works" (tm)! That was a good one.

Please will some Mac fanboy tell me what sound chip a Mac uses?

Onboard sound just works also but atleast I know what I'm buying when I purchase a motherboard.

Reply Score: 1

DigitalAxis Member since:
2005-08-28

It's an Intel 82801G (ICH7 family) chipset.

Reference: This thread where someone set up Gentoo on one.
http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-3341260-highlight-.html?sid=84...

Edited 2007-05-31 21:08

Reply Score: 2

CPUGuy Member since:
2005-07-06

How is the Mac behind?

Macs were the first put in USB, they were the first with Firewire, the first with 802.11N, first with EFI, etc...

Macs DO have SLI, have you ever tried to configure a Mac Pro? You can add up to 3 graphics cards to it. You can buy a Creative sound card and pop it in to your Mac, just like you would have to on just about any PC in existence.

So your custom built PC is better than a bottom of the line iMac? What do you know, who woulda thunk it.

Most likely it's a Realtek or Sigmatel chipset.

Reply Score: 2

Mkane Member since:
2007-05-01

Macs are behind. Who cares about Macs past glory. We are talking about 2007.

You can not simply put a Audigy 2 or higher in a Mac. Creative does not have drivers for OSX. You can not pop in a Xi-fi card, the newest Nvidia cards, the newest ATI cards, etc... in a Mac.

What types of Nvidia graphics card can you run in OSX in SLI mode? Please do tell.

Simply go read some hardware review sites, check out PC hardware vendors etc....and you will see how far the Mac is behind PC.

Reply Score: 1

CPUGuy Member since:
2005-07-06

Go look at a Mac Pro's configuration page.

Reply Score: 1

Mkane Member since:
2007-05-01

No you tell me. Can I put two 8800 cards in SLI mode?

I can easily do this with my PC's.

Reply Score: 1

DigitalAxis Member since:
2005-08-28

I already answered your question. It's an Intel 82801G (ICH7) audio chip.

Reply Score: 2

Mkane Member since:
2007-05-01

Such a high quality audio chip! LOL!

Oh ok Macs are seperior to PC. LOL!

Reply Score: 0

CPUGuy Member since:
2005-07-06

Myth or not, Macs do hold their value MUCH better than PCs.

Reply Score: 1

beowuff Member since:
2006-07-26

FUD FUD FUD!!!

If you compare equivilent hardware at Dell, Dell is MORE Expensive! Last time I looked, it was about $100 MORE!

No, I don't own a Mac. Just wish I did :-P

Edited 2007-05-31 14:22

Reply Score: 0

DigitalAxis Member since:
2005-08-28

Please stop using the word FUD like that, unless you're referring to Elmer.

That said, last time I checked on 17" laptops, Dell was less expensive. Apple offered less details though, so the match wasn't perfect. That said, I've had two horrible hardware experiences out of two Dell laptops bought, so I'm not too keen on buying another.

Apple, on the other hand, sounds like it's a case of hoping you don't have some glaring embarrassing error they don't want to acknowledge exists; otherwise you're OK.

There are lemons everywhere, and unless a product is consistently awful, I'm not sure how much I trust reviews.

Reply Score: 2

v b
by kent12er on Thu 31st May 2007 09:15 UTC
JonathanBThompson
Member since:
2006-05-26

Did Bill Gates and Steve Jobs manage to cancel each other out for the Reality Distortion Field each projects, or were they additive? ;)

Reply Score: 5

suryad Member since:
2005-07-09

LOL! That made me laugh!

Reply Score: 1

l3v1 Member since:
2005-07-06

Well, being a term coined to describe Jobs' personality - and having become an adage per se, I don't think it's appropriate to attribute such a "quality" to Mr. Gates. That said, yeah, it's somewhat funny :/

Reply Score: 3

knowsnotmuch Member since:
2006-09-29

Depends - cancelled when they looked at each other - additive when they turned to look at us, the consumer.

Reply Score: 2

Hardware company => Software company
by Simon Gray on Thu 31st May 2007 10:10 UTC
Simon Gray
Member since:
2006-06-04

It's interesting how Jobs emphasises in part 2 how Apple is a software company and not a hardware company. Just a couple of years ago the rhetoric was the exact opposite.

Reply Score: 5

Deviate_X Member since:
2005-07-11

"It's interesting how Jobs emphasises in part 2 how Apple is a software company and not a hardware company. Just a couple of years ago the rhetoric was the exact opposite."

Question:

Q. If you throw the hardware (iPod) out of Apple what are you left with?

Answer: Not much

Q. If you throw the hardware (MS Mouse) out of Microsoft what are you left with?

Answer: Microsoft

Reply Score: 5

Almafeta Member since:
2007-02-22

This kind of glosses over the fact that one of their biggest cash cows -- iTunes -- is system-independent.

Microsoft sells Office on Macs, and makes money. Apple sells iTunes on PCs, and makes money. It's harder to worry about the competition pushing you out of the market if you're making money off of them, too...

Reply Score: 1

butters Member since:
2005-07-08

The cash cow is the iPod itself, not iTunes. Apple has iTunes so that they can sell millions of iPods. That's why they don't particularly care that less than 1% of the tracks people have on their iPods were purchased on iTunes. iTunes is system-independent, but not player-independent.

Apple has OSX so that they can sell Macs. They don't care what OS you run on it. See the pattern? Apple sells fairly open hardware supported by closed software. If you want to use iTMS or MacOSX, you have to buy Apple hardware. If you buy Apple hardware, they don't care what software you use.

Reply Score: 3

DigitalAxis Member since:
2005-08-28

I take it you don't consider Mac OS X, iLife, Quicktime, or any of the other stuff Apple has done to have any worth?

...and meanwhile:

Q. If you throw the software out of Apple, what are you left with?

Answer: a line of very expensive PC hardware and nicely constructed MP3 players, and an expensive but sleek-looking phone.

Q. If you throw the software out of Microsoft, what are you left with?

Answer: A mouse, some keyboards, some joysticks, an XBox 360, a Zune, and Surface.

Edited 2007-05-31 20:59

Reply Score: 2

Mkane Member since:
2007-05-01

Spin fanboy spin....

LOL...

Edited 2007-05-31 20:47

Reply Score: 0

DigitalAxis Member since:
2005-08-28

Did I leave something out?

Anyway, the comparison is silly because BOTH companies do hardware and software; Apple has more hardware offerings than Microsoft, Microsoft has more software offerings than Apple.

Edited 2007-05-31 20:57

Reply Score: 3

kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

It's interesting how Jobs emphasises in part 2 how Apple is a software company and not a hardware company. Just a couple of years ago the rhetoric was the exact opposite.


Pardon? Apple has always been a software company. Heck, when Apple made the switch from PowerPC to Intel Steve stated that the 'heart of the Mac is the operating system' - hence, its a software company.

Apple uses MacOS X to sell their hardware. It is what makes their product (in the holistic sense) unique to others out there. Not the performance or hardware, but what it can run which no other hardware can.

For me, however, I think the rhetoric is becoming rather slim at best. When I first bought a Mac (an eMac), the alternatives were pretty slim. You either had a buggy Windows XP, a very impersonal Linux or FreeBSD which lacked mainstream applications.

MacOS X at that point was the only viable alternative out there to Microsoft; it had Microsoft Office, its operating system was easy to use, there was a large array of applications available and hardware support was pretty good.

Flash forward today, and its a different ball game. Laptops are the big growth centre. Hardware development has plateaued because of diminishing returns with each successive generation of product. Most importantly software is starting to plateau. More and more features added with less and less return on them. People merely upgrading so that they don't avoid being left 'in the dark' once the support policy runs out.

Things will change, but I think it'll be slow and gradual. Years ago, people would dimiss the idea of Firefox ever getting onto the desktop (both home and corporate) because the lack of support for "Microsoft standards". There are now open standards technologies providing the functionality which Microsoft provided through their proprietary interfaces. People can move.

Same will occur later on. The question is whether Apple is in a position to either take advantage of this change in market dynamics or will it continue to play a roll as a niche for the uber computing elite with a fist full of dollars. Given that the alternatives have caught up in so many ways to MacOS X, can Apple really expect to be continue to charge premiums for their hardware/software combination when there are cheaper alternatives that aren't weilded to a single platform.

Edited 2007-05-31 16:38

Reply Score: 3

butters Member since:
2005-07-08

In the context of the PC (which is a label I apply to the Mac despite the rhetoric), you're absolutely right. The metaphor and scenarios attributed to the PC have run their course. People will be using PCs in much the same way for many of the same purposes 10 or maybe even 20 years from now. If anything, PCs will become less useful as other form factors and metaphors become better suited to the kinds of tasks we currently do with PCs, particularly in the communications and multimedia areas.

Computing platforms are increasingly focused on specific scenarios where they become smart appliances. While the 10-17" folding laptop doesn't seem to be going anywhere, the special-purpose computing appliance is a huge growth area. The iPod and AppleTV are examples of this trend. The last 5 years of the console market speaks of a transition to the notion of a multimedia consumption appliance. Apple and Microsoft are racing to conquer new footprints and create new metaphors.

But the challenge, particularly for Microsoft, is that nobody has inertia in these new markets, and the problem space that these devices address is nowhere near the scope of a PC. This absence of legacy, combined with predefined requirements, creates a fertile breeding ground for free software solutions. The PC establishment is beginning to become vulnerable to free software in some cases, but the future of these vendors in the appliance space is outright threatened by free software.

The only question mark hanging over the future of this market is the impact of content protection technologies and legislation. If hardware and software needs to be certified in order to access content (think CableCard), then the proprietary vendors are going to win, and the consumer is going to lose.

Reply Score: 2

alexandru_lz Member since:
2007-02-11

But the challenge, particularly for Microsoft, is that nobody has inertia in these new markets, and the problem space that these devices address is nowhere near the scope of a PC. This absence of legacy, combined with predefined requirements, creates a fertile breeding ground for free software solutions. The PC establishment is beginning to become vulnerable to free software in some cases, but the future of these vendors in the appliance space is outright threatened by free software.

Although I agree with your logic, I don't see free software as a serious threat on most of these platforms. Not only is there no inertia on these new markets, but these new markets are also changin extremely fast, and the needs each device addresses are very speciic. In my view (although I use free software and I have written free software) this is something that can't really be managed by open source projects.

When I work on my desktop computer, there's usually a very solid foundation (i.e. the OpenSolaris kernel and the associated tools, at least on this machine) upon which there are a couple of other apps, like Gnome, Firefox and emacs.

Most of these applications are several years old. If you look at just about every free software project, the quality of a more complex app after a three or four months is often laughable, a lot of NYI-s, lacking documentation, funny segfaults and so on, which is not a symptom of poor coders, but the symptom of coders working in their free time, sometimes tired, sometimes with girlfriends annoying them and so on.

By the time an open-source project targeted at a specific device (like, say, the Nintendo Wii) becomes better than the one shipped by the supplier, the thing is already being phased out.

Besides, while some of us are prepared to accept some inconveniences on a desktop (for instance, a programmer who works on Linux will be fine without having Photoshop, while a pro DTP person will happily accept running Windows despite not having a decent shell to run shell scripts), such "annoyances" are untolerable on such platforms. I don't want a replacement for AppleTV's software that cannot buy products from iTunes or an MP3 player that, ugh, doesn't play MP3 because of patent issues.

Reply Score: 2

BluenoseJake Member since:
2005-08-11

"By the time an open-source project targeted at a specific device (like, say, the Nintendo Wii) becomes better than the one shipped by the supplier, the thing is already being phased out. "

I disagree, I use XBMC on my XBox, it is a wonderful peice of software, I actually refuse to buy a 360 until this one dies because it is so useful, and it's been out for several years, long before the xbox 260 came out.

Sometimes, OSS can work magic

Reply Score: 3

alexandru_lz Member since:
2007-02-11

Sometimes, OSS can work magic.

I agree (I use xbmc myself), but I wouldn't take it as far as companies being worried that they'll sell their funny little boxes and everyone will take out their software. In addition, most such companies (and this includes Microsoft) probably (or at least shouldn't) care a lot about how people use their hardware as long as they pay for it. Lucky thing you can't pirate hardware I guess.

Reply Score: 2

butters Member since:
2005-07-08

I think that rapid change is a friend of free software and an enemy of big, lumbering proprietary vendors. Unless these vendors are the ones responsible for driving the change, that is. And as we've seen in various ultra-mobile form factors, these vendors have a tough time unilaterally pushing the market to new ideas. The AppleTV is a great device that's been slammed in the media for its highly limited software.

Your sense of how the free software community would interact with such devices isn't quite right. There's a clear chicken and egg problem with releasing a new device without basic software support. The device vendor would obviously ship the units with a decent foundation developed in-house. Then the community would elaborate to make the platform more useful. The point is that a vendor that opens its platform to community development is going to produce a more compelling product than one that closes the platform and shoulders the burden themselves.

If the device vendor doesn't go the free software route from the beginning, then what you say is true, and a free software alternative will come too late. But vendors will increasingly choose to build their platforms on free software, and they'll eventually open their platforms to community development. The community can't just step in and make it so. The vendors have to want an open platform.

For example, a major reason why Linux smartphones haven't been much more successful is because none of them have an open, native development platform. The result is devices that are (supposedly) good enough, rather than ones that are as good as they can be.

By the way, 4-month-old proprietary applications are no better than 4-month-old free software applications and probably worse. The difference is that proprietary vendors don't release early alpha versions. This is more a symptom of "release early, release often" than it is a symptom of resource shortage. Distributors will insulate average users from underdeveloped software. But these are diamonds in the rough for developers and hobbyists.

Reply Score: 3

kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

In the context of the PC (which is a label I apply to the Mac despite the rhetoric), you're absolutely right. The metaphor and scenarios attributed to the PC have run their course. People will be using PCs in much the same way for many of the same purposes 10 or maybe even 20 years from now. If anything, PCs will become less useful as other form factors and metaphors become better suited to the kinds of tasks we currently do with PCs, particularly in the communications and multimedia areas.


But at the same time, if you look at sales of equipment, it is telling a story. I'll give New Zealand as an example, because of NZ's small population and willingness to jump on the 'bleeding edge' first, the trend seems to start first hear.

I'm seeing more people dump their PC's in favour of a laptop; rather than having to have a whole desktop dominiated by a single piece of equipment, they settle for a laptop which they can move around easily, and with wireless networking, no longer need to sit in an uncomfortable chair (for me right now, I'm sitting on a sofa cross legged - nice and compfy).

There is a rise in game consoles, people who used to be ardent "PC's all the way" are now seeing the merits in purchasing a game console. Buy a game console, and able to keep it for 5 years and not have to worry that the games bought in 2 years time will require a hardware upgrade. Its a device designed to do one thing really well - play games.

As for AppleTV; its a non-issue, and quite frankly, I see these things as nothing more than an oddity within a marketplace. You'll see paytv companies offer their own set top boxes, their own videos on demand; most end users don't know how to rip or wirelessly network - they'll just use what ever their paytv operator offers them; case in point, New Zealand we have SKY with mySKY which allows multiple channels to be recorded, delayed recording etc. etc. for 99% of people, its exactly what they need, and easy to use.

All that is happening, computers will still exist, but they won't be the centre of the universe to the same degree they are today; call them more of a 'hub' for devices rather than it being *the* device. Do you listen to your music on your computer or do you use your ipod? in the future, will you use your computer to make VOIP or use a dedicated device that actually hooks right into the router?

Reply Score: 3

Long, but very interesting
by Finchwizard on Thu 31st May 2007 11:32 UTC
Finchwizard
Member since:
2006-02-01

It's in 7 parts, each part is something between 8-15minutes, but it's very interesting watch and they are the people that really founded everything.

And regardless of who's the leader of hardware or software, I think it's going to be a VERY interesting 5 or 10 years ahead.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Long, but very interesting
by b3timmons on Thu 31st May 2007 15:38 UTC in reply to "Long, but very interesting"
b3timmons Member since:
2006-08-26

It's in 7 parts, each part is something between 8-15minutes, but it's very interesting watch and they are the people that really founded everything.

Yeah right, these salesmen founded everything, to be polite. I wonder if this interview would be as interesting as a Gates-Jobs death match, though?

Reply Score: 2

v re
by Oliver on Thu 31st May 2007 11:48 UTC
RE: re
by Thorin on Thu 31st May 2007 13:38 UTC in reply to "re"
Thorin Member since:
2006-07-26

"Nice PR-happening. You see, just silly PR to lure customers into some inferior closed-source operating systems. Business as usual."

Inferior to what? Enough with the Linux fanboy crap. Face it, the two men that were on that stage control the two OS options that are fit to ship to the typical consumer, not "tweak geeks". End of story.

Reply Score: 5

amazing
by mikesum32 on Thu 31st May 2007 12:14 UTC
mikesum32
Member since:
2005-10-22

At the end, before the questions Steve started to tear up. I'm guessing it's because he is feeling old. :-( Bill almost teared up when he was being praised for his humanitarianism. Steve's comment about Bill Gates not wanting to be "the richest guy in the cemetery" was straight and to the point; you can't take it with you.

That was just amazing to watch. Bill was good, but Steve was just so charismatic. It seemed Mr. Gates himself is somewhat in awe, at the end when he said "it's magical", "wow", and how he'd "like to have Steve's taste", when it comes to product design and judgment of character.

His reality distortion field is more like "animal magnetism."

Edited 2007-05-31 12:17

Reply Score: 4

It is great to see 2 software leaders...
by hhcv on Thu 31st May 2007 12:23 UTC
hhcv
Member since:
2005-11-12

get together like this. But, I would have liked to see the OSS side represented too - maybe we could have had a few thousand of our visionaries up on stage too?

In all seriousness though, sometimes I look at my copy of Win 3.1 on my desk and consider it a historical artifact. But, then I have to realize that it is only 20 years old. Then I have to think how incredibly far these guys have brought us in to little time - It almost seems impossible.

Reply Score: 4

Fransexy Member since:
2005-07-29

What you must compare is what was avaliable when Win3.1 that is: BeOS, AmigaOS, IRIX.Now imagine how far would we be if the losers were Microsoft and apple and the winners Be inc, commodore and SGI.
In fact these two guys have brought us ten or more years behind of what we would have to be

Edited 2007-05-31 14:20

Reply Score: 5

JonathanBThompson Member since:
2006-05-26

Not until October 1995 did BeOS even have their first Developer's Release: by that time, Windows NT was beyond version 3.1, which was a released product and in use in August 1993 (version 3.1). Furthermore, even at the earliest version, Windows NT had support for more than one CPU natively, and had native threading primitives that then were more advanced than anything that still runs natively or is ported on anything derived from BeOS.

By that time in 95, Windows 95 (a nod towards the reality that Windows NT wasn't a consumer-level success precisely because it was designed for business, was pure 32-bit, and had quite imperfect backwards compatibility: something all versions of BeOS have with themselves, but far more limited software selections in the best situation) was released, which made it feasible for most consumers to use a system that had traits from a more modern 32 bit OS with a few things from 16 bits that allowed them to use their old Windows 3.1 applications, at least to a greater extent than under Windows NT. Perfect? Hardly! However, I challenge you to run any version of BeOS on a 16 meg RAM machine and have it do anything useful: you could do that with Windows NT 3.1 and 95.

To this day, BeOS, for all its "goodness" still doesn't have as much support for threading primitives as Windows 95 does, has zero security (except obscurity) doesn't work with as many CPUs or cores as Windows NT does and did then, and can't use as much RAM as Windows NT (or even Windows 95!) did then, and I could go on, but there's no point.

Ultimately, especially at the state BeOS was back in the days they were trying to get Apple to buy it, it was very far behind from what NeXT had, so Apple made the far wiser choice in many ways, because BeOS was overpriced in comparison for its maturity. I guess JLG's Reality Distortion Field wasn't strong enough to overcome Steve Job's perception.

Despite all that, I'm still developing software for it, because in many ways, it's a more pleasant system to work with, but I'm not so blind to reality as to ignore the truth.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Dell servers
by Nycran on Thu 31st May 2007 13:23 UTC
Nycran
Member since:
2006-02-06

All I know is that my Dell Poweredge server has been running non-stop for the last 3 years without a single issue. Moreover, the guy in my local data center said that he loves the Dell servers because they have so few problems. Maybe there's a quality difference with their Desktops, but don't bag their servers - they're good!

Edited 2007-05-31 13:24

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Dell servers
by polaris20 on Thu 31st May 2007 14:25 UTC in reply to "RE: Dell servers"
polaris20 Member since:
2005-07-06

All I know is that my Dell Poweredge server has been running non-stop for the last 3 years without a single issue. Moreover, the guy in my local data center said that he loves the Dell servers because they have so few problems. Maybe there's a quality difference with their Desktops, but don't bag their servers - they're good!

You're lucky then. When I was a consultant in Chicago (primarily law firms), I had a lot of problems with them. This was only a few months ago. This past January, I had 4 SCSI drives go bad, 2 power supplies, and a RAID controller (on an Exchange server; that's always fun).

This was at two separate clients, both using Dell servers that ranged in age from 2 years to brand spanking new.

My experiences with them didn't exactly install a lot of faith in Dell quality.

The only cool part about calling Dell (in terms of "Gold Support" is that you get someone in the US. Nothing against overseas tech support, but in the case of at least HP (which is what I primarily work with now) it is often very difficult to understand what they're saying, due to the accent.

Edited 2007-05-31 14:27

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Dell servers
by aGNUstic on Thu 31st May 2007 13:38 UTC
aGNUstic
Member since:
2005-07-28

Actually our Dells servers give us more heartburn than the Gateways in our data center. You must have gotten one from the batch of good ones.

As far as Apple hardware is concerned, the Mini I purchased is the best piece of PC hardware I've ever owned or built. It runs either OS X and Ubuntu quite well and rock solid stable.

Reply Score: 3

I thought it was good
by REM2000 on Thu 31st May 2007 14:00 UTC
REM2000
Member since:
2006-07-25

to hear what these two thought about computers, i just wish some of the stage "magic" would rub off on both apple and windows fanboys and show that there really is no winner and no loser, they both bring choice (as does all the other OS's from solaris to linux).

The only time we loose is when a company goes bankrupt and we loose talented people (i.e. BEOS) who have an effect on the computing landscape.

Reply Score: 3

ronaldst
Member since:
2005-06-29

Now THAT's disturbing.

In many ways, there's no one quite like Steve Jobs. lol

Reply Score: 1

Ruddy Hell!
by Michael on Thu 31st May 2007 19:18 UTC
Michael
Member since:
2005-07-01

Harry Enfield and Paul Whitehouse surely!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Kwy4R8DfOT4

Reply Score: 1

Positioning
by Umbra on Thu 31st May 2007 21:17 UTC
Umbra
Member since:
2006-03-06

What a great show! 1000 thanks to WSJ & Mossberg for pulling this together!

After the show, I could not help asking my self this question: Which company (AAPL or MSFT) at present, is better positioned for bringing to market the next big things people will want (given the Jobs vision of the "post PC era devices" that will be the next big ting to be "computer/softwareized & redesigned)

Clearly Apple must be in a better position to make these new great devices as they can now materialize on delivering great hardware through great software. Microsoft can only deliver half of that equation, yet.

We saw Microsoft present the "table/surface" idea yesterday, but it looks like a somewhat distant "idea", or at least, a long way from going volume. As a reward MSFT was beaten down 1.34% today. This may not necessary reflect on the "surface" vision, but never the less, a disappointing "the day after" day for MSFT

Edited 2007-05-31 21:26

Reply Score: 1

come on
by Umbra on Thu 31st May 2007 21:35 UTC
Umbra
Member since:
2006-03-06

Come on guy's. You do all perfectly know that 95% of people gives a shit about what components are inside computers & devices. People want:
3) reasonable performance
2) great user experience
1) great designs, style & looks.

You are talking marginals -> plus minus single digit percentages. It's irrelevant.

Reply Score: 1

Not true
by Matt24 on Thu 31st May 2007 22:24 UTC
Matt24
Member since:
2005-07-23

Quote: 'Macs are behind the PC when it comes to hardware. This is a fact that is not debatable by Mac fanboys. The PC is pushing tech while the Mac is just sleek and over priced for what you get.'

This may only be true for some cards, but then again if the OS is rubbish, the hardware is rubbish, that is why the Mac is 'overpriced'.

About marketshare, don't worry, between 3 to 4 million people are jumping ship every year.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Not true
by Mkane on Thu 31st May 2007 23:29 UTC in reply to "Not true"
Mkane Member since:
2007-05-01

3 to 4 million a year jumping? Really? Show me the proof!

As far as rubbish XP is a very stable OS. Please explain to me "if" XP is rubbish then why do major companies like Wal-Mart and most hospital systems trust XP on their workstations.

If Apple had it's way then PC's would still cost over $4000.00 and the hardware would not be what it is today. Basically the PC/Linux market is capitalism while Apple is socialism. In other words the PC is the free market where new tech is born while Apple is a closed market big brother market that tells endusers what is good enough while will leeching the free market thus lagging behind in advancing tech outside of sleek looks.

Hey fanboys if 3 to 4 million are jumping then where is the 3rd party software developement? One would think all these software companies that write software for Windows would start writting OSX ports. Where oh where is the 3rd party software? Oh that's right Apple gives ya all you need! So pathetic!

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Not true
by Johann Chua on Sat 2nd Jun 2007 02:37 UTC in reply to "RE: Not true"
Johann Chua Member since:
2005-07-22

Yes, a multi-billion dollar corporation represents socialism. Get a clue.

Reply Score: 2

v the fanboys
by Mkane on Thu 31st May 2007 23:34 UTC
RE: the fanboys
by tpaws on Fri 1st Jun 2007 00:55 UTC in reply to "the fanboys"
tpaws Member since:
2006-06-02

The article is about a joint interview with 2 great people talking about topics we here all enjoy. Some of us have worked through these years, watching and participating in this wonderous industry. Little minds like yours have nothing better to do than enter these forums and spew your ignorance.

Hmmm, well lets see. I just built and shipped a gaming PC to a client yesterday.
- Intel Core2 Quad 6700 2.6GHz
- 2x SLI (nVidia 8800GTX 768MB)
- Asus P5N32 Sli SE
- Corsair 2GB DDR2 1066MHz
- 2x WD 150GB Raptors 10,000 RPM SATA
- 20x DVD-Rom SATA
- 18x DVD-RW SATA
- Sound Blaster X-FI XtremeGamer
- Antec P160W
- Windows Vista Home Premium (OEM)
Cost for parts came in a bit over $3000.00. The client paid a decent profit. The closest comparisons were 'Digital Storm's Twister' just under $4200.00. Alienware's closest @ $5149.00, and Dell's was so high I chose to forget it.

Now the Mac Pro configured as close as possible ( Xeon Quad, Nvidia 7300, 2 SuperDrives, 750 GB 7200 SATA (1x 250 1x500). This basic config. runs $3954.00. Far less cost than than the big name PC's.

Now you are going to tell me how superior the video, and audio, etc. is on the PC compared to the Mac Pro. The typical PC gamer vomit.

Well, I can get a Mac Pro with 8 Cores (the PC is maxed at 4). The Mac Pro can have 16GB RAM and use it. The PC chokes with more than 3GB, hell Vista shows only 3.2GB and is very unstable. Sure with Vista 64 bit the PC can use 8GB, but there are virtually no drivers or software (ie GAMES) that run in Vista 64. Don't try to hand me the PAE hack, since it is not effective or useful for this machines purpose.

My productivity suites, graphics and video suites run wonderfully on this basic Mac Pro, and will absolutely run circles around the above PC. Vista is having serious memory issues with the Windows versions of the software I use.

Don't get me wrong, the PC I built for my client is an awesome machine, but it has ABSOLUTELY NO VALUE TO ME. I can get a far more advanced Mac Pro than this basic configuration, and still spend less than a gaming enthusiest can buy an awesome retail box.

PC gamers are a niche bunch, albeit a good size niche, and the extreme gamers who build their own machines are a portion of this niche market.

So quit spewing your garbage amongst those who know better.

Reply Score: 3

v Safest bet.
by minus1999 on Fri 1st Jun 2007 04:15 UTC
Math
by Matt24 on Fri 1st Jun 2007 12:12 UTC
Matt24
Member since:
2005-07-23

[Quote]
3 to 4 million a year jumping? Really? Show me the proof!

As far as rubbish XP is a very stable OS. Please explain to me "if" XP is rubbish then why do major companies like Wal-Mart and most hospital systems trust XP on their workstations.

If Apple had it's way then PC's would still cost over $4000.00 and the hardware would not be what it is today. Basically the PC/Linux market is capitalism while Apple is socialism. In other words the PC is the free market where new tech is born while Apple is a closed market big brother market that tells endusers what is good enough while will leeching the free market thus lagging behind in advancing tech outside of sleek looks.

Hey fanboys if 3 to 4 million are jumping then where is the 3rd party software developement? One would think all these software companies that write software for Windows would start writting OSX ports. Where oh where is the 3rd party software? Oh that's right Apple gives ya all you need! So pathetic!
[/Quote]

Ok, here comes a little math: Apple will sell this year beteen 6 to 8 million Macs, 50% will go to first time buyers.

About quality, I am in the Windows support business, so I know what I am dealing with, MS generates far more work (support) in the IT world then Apple. MS did have an advantage over OSX until 10.2 (until that point the monopoly position was being established and used to gain access even into hospitals).

About thirdparty software, I bought for my Mac about 4 to 5 times as much thirdparty software then in my MS period, because of quality. For me the second reason never to turn back.

Ever realised that the creative world (music,video and publishing) is almost an exclusive OSX business?

I do agree with you that MS has managed to get XP quite stable but that does not mean it is not rubbish, MS has never had a clean and well designed OS.

About Vista, never mind..

Reply Score: 2