Linked by Thom Holwerda on Tue 19th Jun 2007 10:51 UTC, submitted by Jordi Bruguera
SuSE, openSUSE Novell has shipped the first service pack for SUSE Linux Enterprise 10. "Novell today announced that the first service pack for SUSE Linux Enterprise 10 is now available to customers worldwide. Featuring significant enhancements in virtualization, high-performance computing, security, interoperability and system management, SUSE Linux Enterprise 10 SP1 from Novell lets organizations take advantage of the latest technical advances in the best-engineered, lowest-cost and most-interoperable platform for mission-critical computing."
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Oh boy!
by Noremacam on Tue 19th Jun 2007 12:10 UTC
Noremacam
Member since:
2006-03-08

All the best features from microsoft!

er.... wait?

Reply Score: 0

RE: Oh boy!
by flanque on Tue 19th Jun 2007 21:16 UTC in reply to "Oh boy!"
flanque Member since:
2005-12-15

That's really dumb.

Lots of organisations release "service packs", sometimes under this banner and sometimes under others. It helps to make patching easier and simplified.

Why should one be expected to download 50+ updates if the vendor is prepared to bundle this into a package?

I know a lot of people like to bash and ridicule Microsoft, sometimes rightfully so, but in this case it's unwarranted.

Reply Score: 2

OES2
by IanSVT on Tue 19th Jun 2007 12:17 UTC
IanSVT
Member since:
2005-07-06

This release is the basis for Open Enterprise Server 2 which includes a para-virtualized instance of NetWare. For Novell, this release needs to be solid so many of the NetWare shops out there will finally take leap...even if it's still a virtual NetWare.

Reply Score: 5

RE: OES2
by segedunum on Tue 19th Jun 2007 14:20 UTC in reply to "OES2"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

For Novell, this release needs to be solid so many of the NetWare shops out there will finally take leap...even if it's still a virtual NetWare.

By all accounts, few are going to make that leap. From the people I speak to running Netware, and some of the regulars posting on Novell's blogs and forums, that's something they're not keen on doing. Current Netware customers just don't know why on Earth they should be massively inconvenienced by having to install a somewhat half-baked version of Linux in OES just so they can virtualise Netware on it and continue working the same way they have been doing for years for ZERO benefit. Virtualisation just increases the risks of things to go wrong with no appreciable benefit for these people - despite the hype Novell has attached to it. Novell is just killing their flagship product that brings in the money, and that sends out a bad signal to people.

Novell have failed to sell this to their existing customers, and make it easy and painless. They STILL haven't ported Netware services to a Linux environment and kernel. They have failed to create a seamless plan for moving Netware -> Linux, failed to create straightforward compatibility tools, failed to create quality documentation on moving, failed to sell any real benefits of virtualising Netware to their existing customers if that is their direction, failed to provide easy tools for migrating existing Netware to virtualised Netware and failed to provide sweeteners that would really have helped such as good quality graphical tools. By quality graphical tools I'm talking about stuff that would have been good enough to make a Windows administrator look over the shoulder of a Netware guy and mutter "Bugger".

You see, despite the talk about Linux, Novell's biggest trouble is that they're hemorrhaging Netware customers and money far, far faster than they're gaining any Linux ones - and they're losing them to Microsoft and Windows Server on the whole. Yes, that company they did a deal with ;-). If people are using Active Directory, why do people need Novell? They're just simply not giving their existing customers cast-iron reasons why they should stay with Novell and then build their Linux and other businesses from there.

All that should have been started in earnest as soon as Novell bought Suse, because this was a long-term process started long before then that Linux was supposed to solve. However, Novell didn't understand Linux or open source software from the top down at board and management level. When they bought Suse they simply thought they'd bought Linux...and that was it.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: OES2
by IanSVT on Tue 19th Jun 2007 14:41 UTC in reply to "RE: OES2"
IanSVT Member since:
2005-07-06

How about the benefit of being able to use Linux device drivers? Or how about being able to use more third party software? I think Novell forum users and bloggers would all agree, albeit grudgingly, that there aren't many people lining up to write drivers or NLMs for NetWare. How many server hardware vendors are support NetWare these days? How about Linux?

They have ported NetWare servers to OES Linux. NSS, NCP, eDirectory. They had this in place years ago when OES Linux was first released. This did start this process when they purchased Suse, despite your claim otherwise. However, getting everything to a production quality level has taken a long time and a lot of work. Do you think their engineers have been sitting around scratching themselves this whole time?

This brings me back to my point. OES2 needs to be of a high quality to give people the avenue to finally move with some confidence. Apparently, part of the release will be some good migration tools.

I read like a major Novell apologist here. To lend some objectivity to my point of view, I believe Novell has flubbed some things with OES Linux. However, like I said, this release needs to be the reason to finally make the move. I know it's going to be the make it or break it release for my organization.

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: OES2
by segedunum on Tue 19th Jun 2007 16:50 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: OES2"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

How about the benefit of being able to use Linux device drivers?

People currently using Netware are using NETWARE. Using Linux drivers is neither here nor there to them unless everything just works, and Novell doesn't really seem to understand that. It's not something a Netware person consciously thinks about. There isn't something magical happening by virtue of using Linux.

They have ported NetWare servers to OES Linux.

That wasn't the context. I asked whether all this stuff had been ported to a Linux environment, not OES Linux, and whether someone could run a Linux distribution, easily install some Netware compatibility libraries (and command line tools), with support in the kernel, and have the vast majority of their stuff just work when they moved it from Netware - virtualising Netware being a last resort.

That isn't the case, and it would really have helped in getting people to use and work with Netware again. Novell's problems are two-fold really with Netware:

1. It makes the lion's share of their revenue, but the customer base is falling.
2. Part of the reason why the customer base is falling is that Netware just isn't getting into the hands of enough people to use it.

Catch 22.

This did start this process when they purchased Suse, despite your claim otherwise.

They didn't start any kind of process that I have described after the purchase of Suse. I think they thought that Linux was magically going to make something happen for them, and that by buying Ximian and Suse they were somehow buying open source and Linux. It's become pretty clear that Novell had no real plan at all.

Do you think their engineers have been sitting around scratching themselves this whole time?

To a paying Novell customer, yes, that's exactly what it looks like unfortunately. I mean, nobody wanted this to happen.

I've known a few people who've done a lot with Netware over the years, and they were pretty excited when the whole Novell/Suse thing happened. Many Suse using people were pretty excited as well, because they thought they were getting more than they then had. They sent their MSCEs on alternate training courses and waited, waited, waited, waited and then waited some more.

In the meantime, as Netware servers have got past their sell-buy date they were replaced by W2K3 servers because they had volume licenses for Windows and Microsoft were more than happy to give them anything they wanted - obviously. Did you know that as a result of the Microsoft/Novell deal the agreement for coupons for SLES servers means that Suse has to be a subservient server to Windows domain controllers? The SLES servers could disappear, and no one would notice.

The net effect of the deal is that SLES is being used as a temporary stop-gap measure in moving Linux servers to Windows, so that in five years, when the deal expires, there will be no more Novell servers and no more Novell.

I mean, in almost four years the vast majority of Netware customers have went from being quite excited about everything and willing to give much of the Windows infrastructure the heave-ho, to abandoning any hope of moving to Linux and using Netware to do it.

This brings me back to my point. OES2 needs to be of a high quality to give people the avenue to finally move with some confidence. Apparently, part of the release will be some good migration tools.

Well, quite. Arguably, it's already a bit late to arrest the process that has already started really.

I read like a major Novell apologist here. To lend some objectivity to my point of view, I believe Novell has flubbed some things with OES Linux.

Well, you want to be positive. I want to be positive. Every Netware using person wants to be positive. No one wants to see Windows waltz in and replace a perfectly good network operating system and perfectly good, flexible software.

Sadly, I just can't be positive no matter how I think now. There's an awful lot more to that Novell/Microsoft deal than just open source and patents that everyone is getting so hung up about. I'll quote from the Godfather Part II, and you can insert the right name:

"Roth played this one beautifully."

Edited 2007-06-19 16:53

Reply Score: 5

RE[4]: OES2
by IanSVT on Tue 19th Jun 2007 18:12 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: OES2"
IanSVT Member since:
2005-07-06

People currently using Netware are using NETWARE. Using Linux drivers is neither here nor there to them unless everything just works, and Novell doesn't really seem to understand that. It's not something a Netware person consciously thinks about.


That's absurd. Being able to use Linux drivers is important to anyone who actually wants to be able to continue to run NetWare and NetWare based services on the ever increasing amount of hardware vendors who are dropping NetWare support.

To a paying Novell customer, yes, that's exactly what it looks like unfortunately. I mean, nobody wanted this to happen.


What paying Novell customers are you referring to? My organization runs Novell software. We pay for it. I deal with it on a daily basis. Novell has clearly been working towards a Linux based replacement for NetWare. Personally, I'm all for it, even four years later.

Here are the facts. Novell has been work on a Linux based NetWare replacement. NetWare is losing hardware support, and there's nothing that can change that. They have had one major OES Linux release in early 2005, and two incremental service pack level releases since. They are closing in on the second major release. To say Novell has done nothing is being completely oblivious to the facts. Moreover, you can't replace an operating system in one day. Replacing NetWare takes time. Anyone with any sort of realistic grip on software development has to realize that.

Whether or not they have done a good job with those OES Linux releases is a very arguable subject, but that they have not done anything is most certainly incorrect.

And finally, SLES is not OES Linux. They are based on the same code base but SLES is more of a generic Linux distribution while OES Linux is a direct replacement for NetWare.

I'm sorry, you're very off base with your claims.

Reply Score: 5

RE[4]: OES2
by Damind on Tue 19th Jun 2007 18:51 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: OES2"
Damind Member since:
2006-06-08

segedunum; You really do not know what you are talking about. OES and SLES are not the same thing. OES are Novell services (eDir, iFolder,and many more) OES runs on top of SLES. When you buy OES you are not buying SLES, in-fact you are not licensed to use SLES that comes with OES to run out programs with out an OES service installed on it.

Point is Novell have come a long way with the migration options that they are now providing it's paying customers. By the way OES2 is installed as an add on to SLES.

One thing I would like to see is OES running on any Linux distro not just SUSE. But this is the case with allot of enterprise class apps, they pick a Linux distro and that is it.

segedunum; get the fact at Novell's web site, look at the products in detail before you start talking.

P.S. I am a beta tester for OSE2 so I can not going into details on allot of features in OES2.

P.S.S when was the last time you bought a server that supported Netware? but that server supports SLES this is why virtualized Netware is important. If you need to by a new server because the old one dies you can. in fact I know people who have talked about moving away from netware just because they buy a new server and do not have the drivers for Netware.

Reply Score: 5

Que the Novell bashing
by polaris20 on Tue 19th Jun 2007 13:09 UTC
polaris20
Member since:
2005-07-06

I am willing to bet a fair chunk of money that not one SuSe/Novell article can go by without mentioning their deal with MS.

Seriously, it's old.

Thom, let's just ban Novell-SuSe/Xandros/Linspire articles altogether. After all, anything they now do is completely irrelevant now that they're in league with MS. Right, everybody?

Reply Score: 5

v RE: Que the Novell bashing
by apokryphos on Tue 19th Jun 2007 13:17 UTC in reply to "Que the Novell bashing"
RE[2]: Que the Novell bashing
by polaris20 on Tue 19th Jun 2007 13:22 UTC in reply to "RE: Que the Novell bashing"
polaris20 Member since:
2005-07-06

Learn to read. I fully understand the nature of the deal, however most people bashing SuSe do not, and bring up the MS thing anyway.

And how is my opinion of it being old "wrong"? People on here are really getting brave with their rude comments. A little courtesy in your disagreement would go a long way.

Edited 2007-06-19 13:25

Reply Score: 5

RE: Que the Novell bashing
by Adurbe on Tue 19th Jun 2007 14:00 UTC in reply to "Que the Novell bashing"
Adurbe Member since:
2005-07-06

give it some time for the ms deal to pan out

you never know this could be the deal that SAVED linux or the one that doomed it...

At this point, ie until it is actually put to the test in a courtroom, its impossible to make a judgment on it

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: Que the Novell bashing
by polaris20 on Tue 19th Jun 2007 15:09 UTC in reply to "RE: Que the Novell bashing"
polaris20 Member since:
2005-07-06

At this point, ie until it is actually put to the test in a courtroom, its impossible to make a judgment on it

I agree with that. It could very well be good for Linux, and especially good for people that actually use Linux for their jobs, instead of just out of love of OSS.

Then again it might not be. Only time will tell.

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: Que the Novell bashing
by DirtyHarry on Tue 19th Jun 2007 17:45 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Que the Novell bashing"
DirtyHarry Member since:
2006-01-31

So.... let's start talking SP.

SUSE did a great job. SP1, SDK, Virtual machine driver pack... just great.

IMHO SUSE still provides the most polished Linux enterprise experience.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Que the Novell bashing
by polaris20 on Tue 19th Jun 2007 18:31 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Que the Novell bashing"
polaris20 Member since:
2005-07-06

IMHO SUSE still provides the most polished Linux enterprise experience.

I pretty much agree. I'd say for me it's a very tough choice between SuSe and Ubuntu, though in my experience SuSe is much more enterprise-ready. Ubuntu has a bit of a way to go for that.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Que the Novell bashing
by MatzeB on Tue 19th Jun 2007 18:47 UTC in reply to "Que the Novell bashing"
MatzeB Member since:
2005-07-06

I don't understand this Novell bashing. The company spends lots of resources on improving linux, you can't deny all the SuSE/Ximian work on nearly all linux aspects (kernel, gcc, gnome, kde, ...).

Their bad and idiotic deal with MS hasn't hurt anyone so far so it's not fair to despise them like that IMO. You probably won't reject their actual work in form of open source code, won't you?

Reply Score: 4

Downloads anyone
by subspawn on Tue 19th Jun 2007 13:52 UTC
subspawn
Member since:
2006-04-28

Hmm... if I go to their downloadportal, I can only get SLES-10-SP1 RC5 ... fishy to say at least ? ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE: Downloads anyone
by IanSVT on Tue 19th Jun 2007 13:54 UTC in reply to "Downloads anyone"
IanSVT Member since:
2005-07-06

RC5 is the gold candidate from what I have gathered, so that's what you're looking for. Novell's naming convention with their downloads leaves a bit to be desired.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Downloads anyone
by segedunum on Tue 19th Jun 2007 14:35 UTC in reply to "Downloads anyone"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Hmm... if I go to their downloadportal, I can only get SLES-10-SP1 RC5 ... fishy to say at least ? ;)

This is Novell, so get used to it. Just be thankful you don't have to install a Groupwise patch or something.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Downloads anyone
by IanSVT on Tue 19th Jun 2007 14:51 UTC in reply to "RE: Downloads anyone"
IanSVT Member since:
2005-07-06

This is Novell, so get used to it. Just be thankful you don't have to install a Groupwise patch or something.


I agree with you on that. They really need to incorporate a framework for patching and updating into GW.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Downloads anyone
by DirtyHarry on Tue 19th Jun 2007 17:43 UTC in reply to "Downloads anyone"
DirtyHarry Member since:
2006-01-31

It has been fixed.

Reply Score: 1

It's noticibly improved
by invisik on Tue 19th Jun 2007 13:53 UTC
invisik
Member since:
2006-08-03

Hey,

I installed SP1 on my HP nc2400 notebook last night. Noticible speed increases (boot up, logging in, starting programs, Computer menu performance) and now even my sleep works properly.

One note, if you are installing SP1 via Online Update, it takes a long time (read over 10 minutes, for whatever reason) to complete the switch-update-server to the new servers. I killed mine in the middle of it and was unable to run it again. I just downloaded the CD set (needed it anyway) and ran an Update installation from there. That went fine. Haven't subjected his little laptop to any Xen features yet. ;)

Anyway, enjoy...!

-m

Reply Score: 5

RE: It's noticibly improved
by AtomAnt on Tue 19th Jun 2007 19:10 UTC in reply to "It's noticibly improved"
AtomAnt Member since:
2007-06-19

Well, actually SP1 has quite a few visible bugs and I'm wondering if their Q.A. dpt. fell asleep at some point.

For instance, if you move the GNOME panel to the top of the screen, when you logout/shutdown you'll notice that a new panel is displayed on top of the original one.

Issue #2, if you use synaptics to disable the freaking awful "tap to click" you'll lose the ability to move the mouse pointer a few seconds after.

Issue #3, in most laptops that sport an Intel video card (e.g. 855) when booting back from sleep (suspend to RAM) 8 out of 10 times the screen is corrupted and the only way to fix is to _actually_ reboot the computer.

Issue #4, you're lucky if you can get dual screen working. I reckon at Utah time must have stopped because this is simply unacceptable at this day and age.

Issue #5, in Evolution if you receive an email encoded in Latin1 (bear in mind that the default encoding in SLED is utf8) and it has accented characters, those characters won't be displayed which, more often than not, renders the email useless.

Issue #6, no freaking SD reader support!

Before you ask, no, I'm not _that_ technically inclined. I'm a sales person. I only found these issues because I was recruited as a guinea-pig for SLED evaluation and I ran into them only 1 day after installing the bloody thing. How come this kind of stuff gets past a software company Q.A. department?!

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: It's noticibly improved
by HeLfReZ on Tue 19th Jun 2007 20:44 UTC in reply to "RE: It's noticibly improved"
HeLfReZ Member since:
2005-08-12

What kinda machine were you using? I use thinkpads which are known for being more linux friendly than others.

Issue#1 couldn't replicate

Issue #2 Couldn't replicate on my thinkpad (tried a old x31 with intel)

Issue #3 (tried a old x31 with intel) couldn't replicate, 1 out of 14 failed, but I think that was due to the fact it hadn't fully cycled up when i resleeped it..


Issue #4, Personally i think yast2 and system-config-diplay in rhel are the easiest dual display tools. again maybe machine dependent.

Issue #5 (??) would never run into this so didnt attempt to test.

Issue #6 reader on my desktop showed a different device in "Computer" for each slot on my machine and they were properly labeled. CF reader on X31 also recognized properly.

not taking shots at you or anything, just wanted to check it out on dif hardware. Sounds like a buggy bios, but could be valid bugs.


How come this kind of stuff gets past a software company Q.A. department?!

same way Vista can release one day and have several hundred of MBs of patches already available, and a SP1 almost completed a month after launch...linux isnt alone here. Alot of the problems you are describing, in this case, seem more like the laptop may not be to "linux-friendly"...not to say alot of bugs don't exist lol..

Edited 2007-06-19 20:47

Reply Score: 1

For the record..
by HeLfReZ on Tue 19th Jun 2007 16:17 UTC
HeLfReZ
Member since:
2005-08-12

I to have grown tired of the Novell-MS bashing...companies are beholden to their shareholder, who demand profits. I really personally don't have any issue with it, worse things have been done between companies, and go on everyday. But the "community" loves to get panties twisted. If the deal allows them to build a better product for their client, then far be it from me to stop them.

The only part I don't nec. like about the deal is licensing the WM codecs...I would much rather see MS forced to open the codecs or use a standard open codec, that have to continue to use w32codecs to view their videos. Alot of websites have started moving away from using WMV on their website and encoding via flash now, which is still proprietary, but at least it can be run native.

One a SP1 specific note. Most releases go to RC5 which is where it goes gold, thats just how they do things. I have used both SLES10 SP1 and SLED 10SP1 and I will say they are both stellar distributions. As a sysadmin in a enterprise environment, it is alot easier to manage large farms of SLES/SLED boxes, that just about anything else because of the yast glue. Love it or hate it. Performance of SLED10 is on par with the current releases from community distros...and Ive followed and tested the new releases from of the top20 for the last about 6yrs.

NOTE to the first person who says "OMFG opensuse/sles is slower than distro X"...some peopel don't realize that some distros ship with cpu freq scaling enabled by default. I've found this to be the biggest factor skewing the fast vs slow debate...opensuse with scaling disabled is just as fast, and faster in some cases as the other players...same goes for Ubuntu vs Debian...debian (no scaling by default) Ubuntu(scaling by default) it makes a big dif in how fast the desktop "feels"


Addition: In fact I was impressed with SLED Sp1 to the point of possibly getting a copy to use for my primary workstation at home, where productivity is much more important than 100% OSS FTW.

Edited 2007-06-19 16:26

Reply Score: 5

SP1 does look like a solid release
by REMF on Tue 19th Jun 2007 17:54 UTC
REMF
Member since:
2006-02-05

congrats to Novell.

----------------------------------------------------------

On the subject of the MS deal:
I have decided that i am gonna blow all my mod-points marking down comments where the deal is brought up with no good reason, and i will encourage others to do likewise.

if these fatuous statements of infantile anger can be instantly modded out of existence allowing real discussion about SUSE to take place then i will be a happy person.

Reply Score: 1

HeLfReZ Member since:
2005-08-12

For once I agree with using mod powers lol..it's getting silly and childish. SP1 is a great release IMHO, and about the most polished linux solution available free or paid. But it all gets missed and goes untested because of the zealotry of the MS deal.

Reply Score: 2

On topic
by IanSVT on Tue 19th Jun 2007 18:51 UTC
IanSVT
Member since:
2005-07-06

A couple things I noticed with SLES10 SP1. YaST seems to be a bit quicker loading up modules. I'm hoping to get to play with Xen in the next couple of days.

Also, be wary of updating to SP1 through YaST online update. I've heard of issues updating through that method. You're better off downloading the media from Novell's site and updating by booting off of the DVD/CD1.

Edited 2007-06-19 18:57

Reply Score: 2