Linked by Thom Holwerda on Sun 15th Jul 2007 16:06 UTC, submitted by netpython
Internet & Networking Mozilla's Firefox web browser has made dramatic gains on Microsoft's Internet Explorer throughout Europe in the past year with a marked upturn in FF use compared to IE over the past four months, according to French web monitoring service XiTiMonitor. A study of nearly 96,000 websites carried out during the week of July 2 to July 8 found that FF had 27.8% market share across Eastern and Western Europe, IE had 66.5%, with other browsers including Safari and Opera making up the remaining 5.7%. The July market share represents a massive 3.7% rise since a similar survey in March.
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Good news
by _mikk on Sun 15th Jul 2007 16:20 UTC
_mikk
Member since:
2005-10-19

Let's see what Microsoft comes up with.
Browser wars relaunched

Reply Score: 3

RE: Good news
by Kroc on Sun 15th Jul 2007 16:27 UTC in reply to "Good news"
Kroc Member since:
2005-11-10

Microsoft will just add new ways to get/keep people locked into IE. They won't "come up" with anything. Standards support are lacklustre and Microsoft would rather create their own standard than add support for an existing one. I don't expect to see SVG or Canvas support in IE any time soon; they'd rather push Silverlight.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Good news
by sappyvcv on Sun 15th Jul 2007 16:49 UTC in reply to "RE: Good news"
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

Can you blame them for pushing Silverlight? It's far more advanced than SVG or Canvas.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Good news
by Kroc on Sun 15th Jul 2007 17:05 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Good news"
Kroc Member since:
2005-11-10

Yes, but why is it beyond them to extend the base specifications (like with OpenGL extensions), and contribute the changes back in the form of open, unencumbered documentation, with a suitable reference spec for others to use for implementation.

Silverlight might not be SVG or Canvas (it's more like Flash), but still, where is SVG and Canvas in IE? Websites are already using it- Firefox, Opera and Safari support it.

It's a complete lack of willing from Microsoft. People are so totally used to Microsoft's lack of transparency and cooperation with the industry that they don't question their practices more. IE is a shit product, but not enough people are asking why. IE8 will just be a "me too" release with more annoyances for all web designers everywhere.

Firefox is the complete opposite. I can go on IRC and talk with a core Firefox programmer or Mozillian if I need to, and I even have on occasions.

Reply Score: 5

RE[4]: Good news
by sappyvcv on Sun 15th Jul 2007 18:49 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Good news"
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

Ah, and be accused of embrace, extend, extinguise? I'm sure they love the thought of that.

They could contribute but it doesn't mean their proposals will get anywhere, especially considering who they are.

They should support some more standards that other browsers do, but I'm not going to fault them for Silverlight. It's a great technology that pushes the envelope just a little further than flash could.

Not EVERYTHING has to be done through a slow painful process like most open standards are.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Good news
by wirespot on Sun 15th Jul 2007 20:15 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Good news"
wirespot Member since:
2006-06-21

They should support some more standards that other browsers do[...]


What is that even supposed to mean? Silverlight is not a standard. I don't doubt Microsoft would love for it to become one, but I'm also sure it won't be an open standard. If anything, they'll just try to force it in as a de facto standard. Probably by bundling it with IE/Windows and requiring it for their major sites and any other site they can convince.

It's the fact they don't want to give you a choice that's bothering me. With open standards and free software you can choose. There's nobody in control, trying to further their own agenda and impose things to their own advantage. If anybody acts funny you just drop its software/standard or fork it and the hell with their tantrums.

The end user ultimately wins, and we're all end users. Compare that to slavery into Microsoft's latest gimmick.

Reply Score: 5

RE[6]: Good news
by sappyvcv on Mon 16th Jul 2007 01:16 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Good news"
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

They don't give you a choice? Interesting.

Care to explain that logic, please?

I also never said Silverlight is a standard. Please reread my post.

Edited 2007-07-16 01:17

Reply Score: 3

RE[7]: Good news
by aent on Mon 16th Jul 2007 02:15 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Good news"
aent Member since:
2006-01-25

I don't think the situation will be so bad because didn't Mono already say they had the majority of it ported and functional and were working on performance already? If thats true, thats basically where we are with Flash, except with an open source base (and the head being Microsoft instead of Adobe), so it seems like this has more potential to be better for alternative operating systems then Flash has been. I'm still hoping SVG+related wins for the openness, but I'm not sure whether a Flash or Silverlight dominated world is better.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Good news
by Coxy on Mon 16th Jul 2007 20:21 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Good news"
Coxy Member since:
2006-07-01

'With open standards and free software you can choose. There's nobody in control, trying to further their own agenda and impose things to their own advantage'

What? I choose ie and flash. But everyday OSS advocates try control me and set their own agenda for their own advantage. Where's my freedom to choose?

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Good news
by helf on Sun 15th Jul 2007 20:40 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Good news"
helf Member since:
2005-07-06

There is really no reason to argue with people. No matter WHAT you say or what MS does, it will be 'evil' and 'bad' in the eyes of a lot of people.

Not that I'm backing MS up on crappy standards support in IE though ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Good news
by Coxy on Sun 15th Jul 2007 21:43 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Good news"
Coxy Member since:
2006-07-01

Mod me down if you like, but what he says is true. I first learnt about SGV while at uni. That was about 4-5 years ago. To this date I still haven't seen a single site that use it. Not one. Why would MS bother to try and support SVG when no one use it. Yes I'm sure people replying could link straight away to a few sites in geekdom that need the svg plugin, but in the real world no one uses it or has heard of it, I mean even non-geeks have heard of flash all be it through games. Flash has developed 4 or 5 versions since I first heard of svg. The pictures I've seen of SVG don't look any better (or primative) then when I first heard of it.

The problem with the SVG recommendations from W3C (like all their recommendations) is that they take so long to hammer out the things that, by the time they do come out, a commercial alternative is released. Maybe they could also stop working on the specs for the next two versions too before someone has actually implimented the first version.

Edited 2007-07-15 21:47

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Good news
by diegoviola on Sun 15th Jul 2007 22:20 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Good news"
diegoviola Member since:
2006-08-15

SVG is very important, unlike Flash, SVG is an open standard and is not tied down into just web content, SVG has it place everywhere and most toolkits and web browsers are already using it for render scalable vector graphics to make rich interfaces.

So, the most support of SVG in Firefox and everything, the better for everyone.

Edited 2007-07-15 22:34

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Good news
by sappyvcv on Mon 16th Jul 2007 01:20 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Good news"
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

If the only reason it's important is because it's open, it's not going to go far anytime soon. Sorry, it may suck, but that's the reality of it. That's life, that's capitalism, that's the world.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: Good news
by archiesteel on Mon 16th Jul 2007 16:16 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Good news"
archiesteel Member since:
2005-07-02

What does this have to do with capitalism?

I swear, people use that word without understanding what it means. For your information, there are virtually no developed country that have capitalist economies. All western democracies (including the U.S.) have mixed economies, cherry-picking elements from capitalism and socialism. Such economical concepts don't really belong in discussions about software anyway (because there is no scarcity of ressources, and the "products" are basically given for free).

On-topic:
As far as SVG goes, the fact that it's not very popular doesn't mean it's useless, or that browsers should not support it. After all, how many web sites use Silverlight now? There's *no* indication that Silverlight will gain much popularity (after all, Flash will be difficult to dislodge from its current position).

Reply Score: 4

RE[7]: Good news
by sappyvcv on Mon 16th Jul 2007 16:40 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Good news"
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

Some technologies are driven by corporate funding with the end goal of creating an ecosystem from it that can make them money. More resources will be poured in, sometimes resulting in a more advanced technology then would be created in the open.

Take a corporation with a lot of resources developing a similar technology to an open forum and the corporation one will probably progress faster. It may not strive to be as "perfect" as the open one, but it will probably get done sooner and out there sooner. More likely to be adopted (by the consumers).

Do you understand that, or do I "not understand what it [capitalism] means"?

Christ dude.

Edited 2007-07-16 16:43

Reply Score: 2

SVG as a graphics format
by fejack on Mon 16th Jul 2007 09:02 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Good news"
fejack Member since:
2006-06-12

SVG is now fully supported by mainstream vector graphics applications such as Adobe Illustrator and Corel(Draw!).

Running illustrator, I got the impression that SVG is used as a native format, alongside AI end PDF.

Under GNU/Linuxes, Inkscape provides near-to native support of SVG. It does actually use SVG with additional tags which can be stripped out for saving in standard SVG.

So in the field of graphic design, SVG is fully endorsed, althoug I haven't seen many people use it.

Reply Score: 1

RE: SVG as a graphics format
by lemur2 on Tue 17th Jul 2007 03:31 UTC in reply to "SVG as a graphics format"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

"Under GNU/Linuxes, Inkscape provides near-to native support of SVG."


Inkscape is merely a tool for creating vector graphics files.

The true native support for SVG under GNU/Linux lies within the OS itself.

For GNOME desktop environment, this support is provided by the cairo library:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairo_%28graphics%29

The cairo library is also used for SVG rendering in Firefox 3.
http://www.actsofvolition.com/archives/2006/december/cairocornersin
http://www.squarefree.com/burningedge/2006/01/26/cairo-coming-soon-...

For the KDE desktop environment, SVG support is provided via ksvg.
http://svg.kde.org/

You can use SVG graphics, for example, as a desktop for KDE:
http://dot.kde.org/1103326589/

SVG plays a larger role in the KDE4 desktop environment:
http://dot.kde.org/1167723426/

The Oxygen icon set for KDE4 are SVG graphics files:
http://techbase.kde.org/Projects/Oxygen/Style

So in the field of graphic design, SVG is fully endorsed, althoug I haven't seen many people use it.


That is soon to become a past-tense observation with the arrival of KDE4.

Most of the icons & graphics of the KDE4 desktop will be SVG.

Reply Score: 4

RE[4]: Good news
by renhoek on Sun 15th Jul 2007 23:00 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Good news"
renhoek Member since:
2007-04-29

putting svg in your site directly using xhtml does not work in ie (same for mathml and all other cool xhtml stuff), for the rendering as an image you need an external plugin, which i could not find easily. and because it looks broken to nearly all visitors (read: ie users) nobody uses svg. it's not because svg itself is bad. where everybody should use svg they use flash (see google's stock pages for example).

svg is well supported in graphical applications, so making svg files is not hard, and you could also generate them using code. the reason microsoft does not support svg is because they want people to use their own version (silverlight was it?) and have the vendor lockin again.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Good news
by sappyvcv on Mon 16th Jul 2007 01:22 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Good news"
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

The Silverlight plugin works in IE, Firefox, Opera and Safari.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: Good news
by pashar on Mon 16th Jul 2007 09:10 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Good news"
pashar Member since:
2006-07-12

Does it work on Linux?

Reply Score: 3

RE[7]: Good news
by sappyvcv on Mon 16th Jul 2007 09:55 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Good news"
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06
RE[4]: Good news
by unoengborg on Mon 16th Jul 2007 00:57 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Good news"
unoengborg Member since:
2005-07-06

Sorry, but the main reason for people to make web sites in the first place, is that people should be able to read them.

If the browser used by the majority of all users doesn't support a certain feature, that feature is unlikely to be utilized by most web developers. This is true for SVG, as well as for more advanced CSS features. Yes, there plugins to show SVG, in IE but unlike Firefox and many other new browsers it doesn't support the latest versions, and unlike the Flash plugin it is not widely used.

The reason for the IE dominance has nothing to do with its technical qualities, but the fact that it is shipped with a commonly used OS. Users with little knowledge or interest are not likely to install a new browser. Now this seams to be changing.

Reply Score: 4

v RE[5]: Good news
by Coxy on Mon 16th Jul 2007 08:40 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Good news"
RE[6]: Good news
by abraxas on Mon 16th Jul 2007 15:39 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Good news"
abraxas Member since:
2005-07-07

1 > IE starts faster then the others. I know why. It's part of the os. As a normal user, I couldn't care. It starts faster, so I use it.

The difference in startup speed is negligible on modern systems.

2 > Bookmarks. No other browser has a better bookmarks system. The favourites in IE are just regular files and folders. Nothing new to learn.

I prefer epiphany's smart bookmarks. IE's favorites are lame in comparison.

4 > As a web designer, I prefer to use the browser that most of clients' customers will be using. So that I can see what they will see.

You will also fail to see what Firefox users will see, which obviously is becoming increasingly important. I absolutely loathe IE but I have to check my code's compliance with it if I am making a serious website. The same is true for Firefox. Even if you use IE you're cutting a lot of people off from your website if you don't check compliance with Firefox.

Reply Score: 3

RE[7]: Good news
by Coxy on Mon 16th Jul 2007 20:11 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Good news"
Coxy Member since:
2006-07-01

I never said that I don't check the sites with other browsers. That's why I have several installed.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Good news
by Soulbender on Mon 16th Jul 2007 05:18 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Good news"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

"Mod me down if you like, but what he says is true."

Except that SVG is not a contender to either Flash or Silverlight?
It's like saying WMF is also a contender in this arena.
It's a vector graphis format, not a presentation framework.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Good news
by ThawkTH on Mon 16th Jul 2007 15:28 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Good news"
ThawkTH Member since:
2005-07-06

Perhaps it was never used because, well, support has been lacking.

4-5 yrs ago? That's pre-firefox explosion, when IE was what just about EVERYONE used.

Think about it...how could it be used if nobody supports it? I think it's only with the advent of alternative browsers and some DE's that SVG is becoming serious.

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: Good news
by Coxy on Mon 16th Jul 2007 20:15 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Good news"
Coxy Member since:
2006-07-01

Please, come out of your geekdom. SVG is never and will never be used on mass. It's going to slowly disappear.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: Good news
by lemur2 on Tue 17th Jul 2007 03:34 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Good news"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

SVG is never and will never be used on mass. It's going to slowly disappear.


I don't think so.

SVG is a W3C standard:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Wide_Web_Consortium#Standards
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scalable_Vector_Graphics

SVG is going to have a significant impact on web interactivity:
http://networkimprov.net/airwrx/awscene.html

... particularly in conjunction with Ajax and probably JavaFX as well.

SVG is an integral part of the upcoming KDE4 desktop. It simply isn't going away any time soon.

Edited 2007-07-17 03:38

Reply Score: 4

RE[7]: Good news
by sappyvcv on Tue 17th Jul 2007 12:11 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Good news"
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

What part of "on mass" did you miss?

KDE4 is probably the first time it'll ever be heavily used.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Good news
by rajan r on Mon 16th Jul 2007 04:05 UTC in reply to "RE: Good news"
rajan r Member since:
2005-07-27

Microsoft will just add new ways to get/keep people locked into IE. They won't "come up" with anything. Standards support are lacklustre and Microsoft would rather create their own standard than add support for an existing one. I don't expect to see SVG or Canvas support in IE any time soon; they'd rather push Silverlight.


Firstly, Silverlight was meant to compete against Flash, presentation components of Ajax and JavaFX - *not* SVG. Microsoft did not use Silverlight because it is an extension of .NET. So, if Silverlight used SVG instead of XAML, either a chasm is created between Silverlight and .NET and WPF, or SVG as a standard has to be changed substantially.

More importantly, if Microsoft used SVG, it would be tying proprietary stuff with an open standard, thus actually making it a *bad* thing.

As for Canvas, it was developed by Apple - and Apple retained its rights on those patents. Using WHATWG's Canvas still opens Microsoft to legal liability. How is Canvas then an open standard?

Both SVG and Canvas can be used in IE as plugins - that's how Flash got around, wasn't it? The lack of websites using either, and the subsequent lack of users bothering to download plugins for either, shows that while W3C and WHATWG have blessed SVG and Canvas, respectively, as standards - most don't give a toss. (In the case of Canvas, a workaround without the use of plugins is being developed)

And you bringing up Canvas was a good point - even Apple decided against spending resources on full SVG compliance. If Apple, one of Microsoft's competitors in the browser market, couldn't be bothered with SVG instead creating its own "standard", why should Microsoft?

I don't use IE for a reason, and I dread designing my website so it would look nice on all browsers, but SVG and Canvas is not somewhere they dropped the ball, or somewhere they are deliberately using their market power to muscle out competition (in any case, Flash doesn't seem to be getting a pounding from Silverlight, aye? But I thought Microsoft was an all-powerful monopoly).

Reply Score: 3

RE: Good news
by butters on Sun 15th Jul 2007 21:17 UTC in reply to "Good news"
butters Member since:
2005-07-08

I don't see how Firefox is a threat to IE or Microsoft. Even if FF continues to outshine IE in most ways, and people actually choose FF over IE because of its advantages, I still fail to see how it's a threat. If anything, FF is a threat to web developers, because as FF usage grows, they have no choice but to deal with browser compatibility issues. But there is nothing preventing web developers from supporting FF.

If FF eventually comes to dominate the web, Microsoft will still be able to publish popular and profitable web applications. So would any other business. If Microsoft enjoys any advantage in web services because they develop IE, it's a very small one. In fact, the more they leverage this advantage, the more likely they are to lose browser marketshare. Microsoft lost the web to Google, not Mozilla.

The only part of Microsoft that Firefox threatens is whatever remains of their pride.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Good news
by Khoji on Tue 17th Jul 2007 06:02 UTC in reply to "Good news"
Khoji Member since:
2005-08-17

Well, Microsoft might consider actually making Internet Exploder genuinely compatible with web standards (gasp).

Reply Score: 2

Perhaps...
by Arakon on Sun 15th Jul 2007 16:37 UTC
Arakon
Member since:
2005-07-06

it's lack of support for standards that is driving users away?

I know that whenever I get on one of my relatives computers, the first thing I do is install Firefox, because as someone who writes web pages on occasion I have found that Firefox tends to follow standards a bit better even though it is not fully compliant either. If my web pages look better on it, and the interface is better, it gets installed. That said I absolutely hate the new interface on IE 7. I hate having to find basic options like the text menus and fight to turn them back on. I still have IE installed to trouble shoot my web pages but it is an absolute bitch to try to get a decent looking CSS to work in both and look the same.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Perhaps...
by samad on Sun 15th Jul 2007 16:52 UTC in reply to "Perhaps..."
samad Member since:
2006-03-31

I don't think it's entirely personal choice in this case. Large organizations, like corporations and government agencies, are far more open to open source projects in Europe than in the US.

I'm not entirely sure why this is the case. I think European organizations have been willing to consider alternatives. You hear European governments warming up to open source more than US government organizations.

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: Perhaps...
by Arakon on Sun 15th Jul 2007 17:02 UTC in reply to "RE: Perhaps..."
Arakon Member since:
2005-07-06

lol thats easy to answer, EU governments are more socialist in nature than the US, so their politicians aren't as deeply embedded into the pockets of big money like US politicians. Notice I said "Not as Deeply" Big money helps make decisions everywhere.

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: Perhaps...
by samad on Sun 15th Jul 2007 22:34 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Perhaps..."
samad Member since:
2006-03-31

If by "easy" you mean overly facile, then I heartily disagree:

1) Notice I said that even European corporations have been more open to open source projects. That's not a "socialist" argument.

2) I don't think average computer users really care that much about Firefox's standards compliance. Do average users even know what CSS even is? Like I said, it's not personal choice that's ENTIRELY producing Firefox's stunning success in Europe.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Perhaps...
by Kroc on Sun 15th Jul 2007 17:12 UTC in reply to "RE: Perhaps..."
Kroc Member since:
2005-11-10

It's not as rosy as you paint it. Microsoft still have a strong stranglehold on corporations and the government here in the UK.

The difference is that Microsoft are portrayed as strongly American to worldwide audiences. Their adverts, their style of design, everything about them is, well,... cheesy. Apple on the other hand have setup a strong British image over here, being sure to localise their efforts in this country.

It doesn't go without saying that most Europeans think twice about how they do business with the Americans, what with you know, the total disregard for people's freedoms your government has.

I might be making a real dumb comment; but I'm betting that slowly and surely, Europe is trying to distance itself from America.

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: Perhaps...
by Cymro on Sun 15th Jul 2007 18:44 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Perhaps..."
Cymro Member since:
2005-07-07

"have setup a strong British image over here, being sure to localise their efforts in this country."

Look, I'm a Mac fan but this is biased nonsense.

Apple dropped the British-English localisation of Mac OS after 8.6. That killed off the Wastebasket in favour of the Trash, and introduced very un-British spelling. International-English is basically US English and you'd be wrong to deny that.

OS X was originally released with only a US English dictionary and things like Sherlock and Dashboard are usually not as well supported here. Mac prices have always been higher in Britain, and new initiatives like the AppleStores, iTunes Music Store and iPhone always arrive in the US first.

Apple's printed material and design are the same as in the US. If you ever did the battery replacement programme, you'd notice that it came with the stock instructions with shipping instructions for North America. It doesn't bother me that much, but it's still true.

By contrast, Windows and Linux even have Welsh language versions. If Apple won't give us a "Help Centre", then we'll never get a "Canolfan Cymorth" in my area of Britain.

Historically Apple have always been a marginal force over here. Commodore, Sinclair, Atari, Acorn, Microsoft and others have ruled in the home, the school and the office in their time.

They employ very few people in the UK, less than Microsoft for sure. And above all - Apple ARE a US company. That's where our money goes.

When you say, "strong British identity" you really mean "I like them". I like them too, but they care a lot less about us than you think.

Edited 2007-07-15 18:47

Reply Score: 5

RE[4]: Perhaps...
by sappyvcv on Sun 15th Jul 2007 18:51 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Perhaps..."
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

Ouch. Owned.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Perhaps...
by stestagg on Sun 15th Jul 2007 19:40 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Perhaps..."
stestagg Member since:
2006-06-03

Apple's perceived identity is based FAR more on their marketing efforts than software-languade nuances. The fact the Mitchell and Webb are used to face Apple's UK ad campaigns has much more impact on the UK public than calling something 'trash'.

Reply Score: 4

RE[5]: Perhaps...
by Cymro on Sun 15th Jul 2007 20:22 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Perhaps..."
Cymro Member since:
2005-07-07

My list contains the other 99.9% of Apple marketing, 30 years of UK computing, software localisation, support for a minority UK language, later releases, missing features, higher prices, and lack of any real UK workforce.

Your list contains Mitchell & Webb!

Sorry, to be blunt, but I find that quite funny. If you like you can add those ads they ran in Mac magazines when Labour came to power in 97 - "New Apple".

Reply Score: 4

RE[6]: Perhaps...
by stestagg on Mon 16th Jul 2007 10:25 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Perhaps..."
stestagg Member since:
2006-06-03

Welcome to the modern world. What's happening now in the Media has far greater impact on public opinion than histories or technicalities. Sorry.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Perhaps...
by kittynipples on Mon 16th Jul 2007 16:56 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Perhaps..."
kittynipples Member since:
2006-08-02

Thank you Noah Webster for championing the idea that words should be spelled as they are pronounced. ;)

Reply Score: 0

RE: Perhaps...
by Redeeman on Sun 15th Jul 2007 17:56 UTC in reply to "Perhaps..."
Redeeman Member since:
2006-03-23

why dont you just do as reasonable people do, and screw any browser support, make your "code" clean and according to w3c specifications, and if some browser chooses not to work, well so what? screw them, the reality of this though, is that with almost certainty, that it will work in khtml/opera/gecko.. as for IE? well, screw them.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Perhaps...
by sappyvcv on Sun 15th Jul 2007 18:35 UTC in reply to "RE: Perhaps..."
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

If your site is trying to make money somehow, that is a terrible idea.

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: Perhaps...
by Redeeman on Mon 16th Jul 2007 04:46 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Perhaps..."
Redeeman Member since:
2006-03-23

yeah, but making it illegal to sell slaves also was a bad idea for slave sellers, if they wanted to make money..

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: Perhaps...
by sappyvcv on Mon 16th Jul 2007 09:58 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Perhaps..."
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

Yeah, compare a god damn web browser to slavery. Real nice.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Perhaps...
by BluenoseJake on Mon 16th Jul 2007 13:08 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Perhaps..."
BluenoseJake Member since:
2005-08-11

Comparing IE to slave trade is just ignorant. Nobody forces anybody to use IE, most non geeks are lazy or don't know the alternatives, but they do exist, and they are not illegal. Grow up.

Reply Score: 4

RE[5]: Perhaps...
by Redeeman on Mon 16th Jul 2007 18:41 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Perhaps..."
Redeeman Member since:
2006-03-23

nobody you say? im regularly overlooking conversations on IRC about some gouvernments having REQUIRED tax stuff where you can only use IE to fill in, and where they've stopped accepting it in oldschool paper-form.

so basically its do it or go to prison..

is that not forced?

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Perhaps...
by sappyvcv on Mon 16th Jul 2007 18:50 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Perhaps..."
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

Can you please provide an example?

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Perhaps...
by BluenoseJake on Tue 17th Jul 2007 01:30 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Perhaps..."
BluenoseJake Member since:
2005-08-11

IRC conversations? That's some credible evidence

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Perhaps...
by Redeeman on Tue 17th Jul 2007 05:32 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Perhaps..."
Redeeman Member since:
2006-03-23

thats right, when people on irc are complaining that they can no longer turn in their taxes in paper-form anymore, and that the site only accepts IE, coupled together with it being multiple different people writing it, yes, then i kindof believe its true

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Perhaps...
by unoengborg on Mon 16th Jul 2007 15:52 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Perhaps..."
unoengborg Member since:
2005-07-06

Actually, you can make sites that look very good in even in IE by sticking to the w3c standards. So sticking to the standard shouldn't be a problem even for money making sites. Doing things that only works in one browser will only make your pages more expensive to maintain in the long run.

The problem today, is that the standard allows for more cool stuff than that can be displayed by IE, so you will need to check that your standard compliant web pages degrades gracefully when viewed in IE6 and other vintage or non standard compliant browsers.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Perhaps...
by dagw on Sun 15th Jul 2007 20:13 UTC in reply to "RE: Perhaps..."
dagw Member since:
2005-07-06

It is entirely possible to write a page the perfectly complies with w3c specs and yet fails to render correctly in some way on every browser out there.

Coding to w3c spec is not in it self a silver bullet and not a valid excuse for your page not working. If I hired you to do a web page for me and it didn't render in correctly I'd demand you redo it, despite your claims that it follows w3c perfectly.

Edited 2007-07-15 20:16

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: Perhaps...
by shykid on Sun 15th Jul 2007 21:36 UTC in reply to "RE: Perhaps..."
shykid Member since:
2007-02-22

make your "code" clean and according to w3c specifications, and if some browser chooses not to work, well so what?

This could be the fastest way to get Microsoft to update IE, methinks (provided the W3C specifications used are well supported by the other browsers), but there are a few major caveats.

If enough sites don't render correctly in IE and that starts driving people away from it in droves, I see Microsoft completely rewriting Trident from scratch to be as standards-compliant as possible, or maybe even licensing or buying another rendering engine.

But the problem is actually getting the people to use something else because it's more standards-compliant. Joe Sixpack doesn't understand or care about web standards. And IE7 has most of the "killer features" Firefox and Opera have that would have sent Joe Sixpack looking at those browsers. Hell, an otherwise competent, computer-genius buddy of mine doesn't care--he thinks whoever has the most usage share should dictate 'standards'. He uses Opera, but the whole standards fiasco is a non-issue to him.

Another problem is you will lose a lot of visitors in the short-term, and profit-generating visitors are what drive a lot of the 'major' sites on the Internet.

Really, I don't care what browser people use, as long as the vast majority of 'em are using a reasonably standards-compliant one--even if that browser is an updated IE.

Edited 2007-07-15 21:37

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Perhaps...
by Arakon on Mon 16th Jul 2007 07:15 UTC in reply to "RE: Perhaps..."
Arakon Member since:
2005-07-06

lol
well unfortunately the "screw them" attitude is exactly what Microsoft has been doing with Internet Explorer since they introduced it. being that I actually care that my web pages are displayed in a manner that resembles my specs I do very much care and I have paid for it every time I wanted to try something new with CSS.

Reply Score: 2

standards
by renhoek on Sun 15th Jul 2007 17:31 UTC
renhoek
Member since:
2007-04-29

my numbers say (for this month, 90K visitors, 90% dutch) 90% ie, 7% ff. and the ie6/ie7 are equally split.

being a web developer, the thing i need most are proper standards which are also properly implemented. ff/opera/safari are not perfect but they at least try to do that. ie is really fücked. i really don't give a shit if you use an evil browser which eats baby kittens for breakfast, as long as it follows the standards. supporting multiple browsers is really a PITA.

the unwillingness to support xhtml is a good example (the engine is fully build in but needs a dummy xslt to work). ie simply does not honor the mime type. which needs a lot of ifdefs again from my (=webdevelopers) side.

(ps. why can't i type f--ked with an u? )

Edited 2007-07-15 17:34

Reply Score: 1

Stats.
by Buck on Sun 15th Jul 2007 19:14 UTC
Buck
Member since:
2005-06-29

I wonder what OSNews's browser stats are. Would be cool to take a peek at that.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Stats.
by Kroc on Mon 16th Jul 2007 13:26 UTC in reply to "Stats."
Kroc Member since:
2005-11-10

Bump, but I don't see what it would prove. We know the audience is technical. It would be better to know the stats of a completely non technical website.

A commercial, very non-technical website I wrote and maintain just passed 1 million unique views and the stats are:

78% Internet Explorer
18.7% Mozilla Firefox
2.5% Apple Safari / Linux Konqueror
0.8% Opera Browser

89.3% Microsoft Windows
3.3% Apple OSX
0.3% Linux

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Stats.
by netpython on Mon 16th Jul 2007 13:57 UTC in reply to "RE: Stats."
netpython Member since:
2005-07-06

Probably if you would calculate the mean of both websites you get the results from the post.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Stats.
by Buck on Mon 16th Jul 2007 15:44 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Stats."
Buck Member since:
2005-06-29

I've just looked at my own stats and while it's meaningless to post them here, I have a question: anyone knows of the best way to monitor browser growth month by month? Just thought I'd ask before writing some custom script...

Reply Score: 2

it would be interesting to know
by vege on Sun 15th Jul 2007 19:27 UTC
vege
Member since:
2006-04-07

I'm courius to know the reasons behind the fact that Europe seems more open for using alternative software related to the US.
I guess a research like that would be telling about the relations between cultural background and software design.
Also could boost up the work efficiency of some design labs.

Reply Score: 2

RE: it would be interesting to know
by dagw on Sun 15th Jul 2007 20:21 UTC in reply to "it would be interesting to know"
dagw Member since:
2005-07-06

I'm curious to know the reasons behind the fact that Europe seems more open for using alternative software related to the US.

I'd guess that one reason is that there are far fewer large commercial closed source software houses in Europe, and no one likes to send their hard earned money out of the country.

Had Microsoft been a Germany or French company, then they would probably be more anti Open Source than even the US is now.

Reply Score: 1

Firefox ready for a push
by cyclops on Sun 15th Jul 2007 19:37 UTC
cyclops
Member since:
2006-03-12

You can't tell whats going on behind the scenes but Firefox is definitely a success, but isn't it about time successful software like this was installed on machines as default.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Firefox ready for a push
by sappyvcv on Mon 16th Jul 2007 01:14 UTC in reply to "Firefox ready for a push"
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

Sure. Get an OEM to sign on to do it. You'll likely have to pay them or find a way for them to make money off of it though.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Firefox ready for a push
by Soulbender on Mon 16th Jul 2007 05:32 UTC in reply to "Firefox ready for a push"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

"but isn't it about time successful software like this was installed on machines as default."

No.

Reply Score: 2

Firefox on Linux
by asdx24 on Sun 15th Jul 2007 20:09 UTC
asdx24
Member since:
2007-05-17

This is really cool but I really wish Mozilla developers focuses more on non win32 systems, Firefox in my Linux systems crashes all the time, while on win32 is fine and I really wish they will fix the damn issues with the RAM suckage.

Other than that, I really like Firefox.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Firefox on Linux
by sappyvcv on Mon 16th Jul 2007 01:15 UTC in reply to "Firefox on Linux"
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

I agree. When I use firefox on Ubuntu, it crashes probably once a day, though I don't really use that box that much, so it would likely crash more with more usage. Default install, nothing special about it.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Firefox on Linux
by chemical_scum on Mon 16th Jul 2007 04:44 UTC in reply to "RE: Firefox on Linux"
chemical_scum Member since:
2005-11-02

When I use firefox on Ubuntu, it crashes probably once a day, though I don't really use that box that much, so it would likely crash more with more usage. Default install, nothing special about it.

When I was using Firefox on my last system (Dapper with Mozilla binary 2.02) FF would crash quite often especially after using a lot of Flash.

My new system (faster box more RAM, Feisty 2.04 default install patched) FF has not crshed on me once since I set it up about a nonth ago with about a reular daily one to two hours browsing. Also FF seems to be consuming less RAM now.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Firefox on Linux
by Havin_it on Mon 16th Jul 2007 03:05 UTC in reply to "Firefox on Linux"
Havin_it Member since:
2006-03-10

I also found a lot of bugs/issues with the binary distributions of Firefox, but these have evaporated since I started building it from source on Gentoo. Those who have such problems might consider building from source on their own distro; yes it takes some time, but I suspect it is the cure for a lot of the bugs.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Firefox on Linux
by OStourist on Mon 16th Jul 2007 07:07 UTC in reply to "Firefox on Linux"
OStourist Member since:
2007-06-19

firefox 2.0.04 almost never crashes on my Fedora 7 linux
I suspect broswer plugins may be behind a lot of the crashes linux users are reporting..

Reply Score: 1

RE: Firefox on Linux
by cobbaut on Mon 16th Jul 2007 08:18 UTC in reply to "Firefox on Linux"
cobbaut Member since:
2005-10-23

Strange, i also use firefox on Ubuntu, and this laptop is always running with firefox always open (on average two windows with about fifteen tabs). It never crashed on me the past ten months or so.
It used to crash a lot on Ubuntu 6.06, but not on 6.10 or 7.04.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Firefox on Linux
by sappyvcv on Mon 16th Jul 2007 10:02 UTC in reply to "RE: Firefox on Linux"
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

I'm running 7.04 from a fresh install. Desktop with an AMD Athlon XP 2500 and 512mb of DDR memory. Nothing fancy.

Reply Score: 2

IE Users
by HappyGod on Mon 16th Jul 2007 05:08 UTC
HappyGod
Member since:
2005-10-19

I find it absolutely amazing at the loyalty some people have to Internet Exploder.

My wife, and sister-in-law absolutely refused to stop using IE, because they "like the look" of IE. I personally think it looks like crap, and the decision to move the 'Refresh' and 'Close' buttons to the right side of the address field is just total insanity.

Sick of the resulting viruses and spyware, I got around this by installing the IE skin to FF and redirecting all the IE shortcuts to FF. Worked like a charm! :-)

Reply Score: 3

RE: IE Users
by sappyvcv on Mon 16th Jul 2007 06:04 UTC in reply to "IE Users"
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

God forbid someone have the choice to use what software they want...

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: IE Users
by HappyGod on Tue 17th Jul 2007 01:00 UTC in reply to "RE: IE Users"
HappyGod Member since:
2005-10-19

Except that it's my computer, and the virus' that IE attracts like moths to a flame affect me as well.

Reply Score: 1

RE: IE Users
by systyrant on Mon 16th Jul 2007 14:46 UTC in reply to "IE Users"
systyrant Member since:
2007-01-18

Personally, I like the fact that we have some real viable choices now. On Windows you have IE, Firefox, Opera, and even Safari. I don't count Netscape since it uses either the IE or Firefox rendering engines.

A lot of people know IE and are comfortable with it. I don't fault them for that. Making Firefox look like IE to help some make the transition isn't a bad idea. However, pushing ones choice off on another is always bad form. However, I won't fault you for you actions on your home computers. ;)

Reply Score: 3

money
by REM2000 on Mon 16th Jul 2007 08:03 UTC
REM2000
Member since:
2006-07-25

Another factor to consider is the thousands of people who have had to pay for a windows reinstallation as IE let some crapware on their computer. Alot of people will use Firefox as they feel it's safer and less expensive.

Reply Score: 2

IEt's a business model
by dwave on Mon 16th Jul 2007 08:15 UTC
dwave
Member since:
2006-09-19

There are a lot of companies out there that program/bought their CMS purely for the IE platform; with a lot of fishy code that no one will understand anymore because the lead programmer has long ago left the building. These companies will always be bound to IE and sometimes even to a certain release. Nothing is going to change any time soon since it would require very unpopular decisions.

Reply Score: 1

RE: IEt's a business model
by trenchsol on Mon 16th Jul 2007 12:56 UTC in reply to "IEt's a business model"
trenchsol Member since:
2006-12-07

IE is the most manageable browser if company is using Microsoft Group Policy. Most of the features and options can be easily controlled from one place for the whole company.

Reply Score: 1

My office...
by systyrant on Mon 16th Jul 2007 14:57 UTC
systyrant
Member since:
2007-01-18

My office uses Firefox on every Windows XP desktop. Unfortunately, we do have some website that require IE, but I complain to the site designers every chance I get. Some now, not due to me alone, have made their sites Firefox compatible.

Personally, I wish the web was 100% browser agnostic. I think it could, but it seems that each browser (excluding Microsoft) seems to interpret the W3C recommendations just ever so slightly different making it necessary to code for each browser in some cases.

I suppose when I move to Perfect someday I won't have to worry about any of those things. ;)

Reply Score: 2