"On her weblog, Mozilla Corporation CEO Mitchell Baker has announced that Mozilla Thunderbird is to move to a "new, separate organizational setting" as the Mozilla Foundation continues to focus ever more closely on Firefox. While the Mozilla Foundation supports a number of projects, its taxable subsidiary the Mozilla Corp. is responsible for only Firefox and Thunderbird. However, it has become increasingly clear that Firefox is the priority. The resources allocated to Firefox dwarf those allocated to Thunderbird and recent projects such as the initiative to improve Mozilla support exclude Thunderbird."
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Member since:
2007-03-30
I see where the Mozilla Foundation is going here and I don't love it. One of the developers said something along the lines of 'if we've got to spin off Thunderbird (stop spending resources on it) to beat IE with Firefox, then lets do it'. Beat IE. Right!
They should just be clear about the motivations here. Money. They don't want anything to do with anything other than Firefox, because Firefox is the only thing making them money. The Mozilla (Firefox) Foundation is now only concerned with gaining market share so that their sugar daddy (Google) will pay them more when their current multi-million dollar contract is up.
To which I reply: It's the Mozilla Foundation, not the Firefox Foundation. Though maybe it should be renamed to the Firefox Foundation if this is where they are taking it.
I use Firefox and Thunderbird.
Member since:2006-04-28
Yes, money makes the world go 'round...
But I wonder, Firefox is Free, right? So if someone (say Debian) renames/rebrands it, where will the money from Ice Weasel go, to the Mozilla Foundation or to Debian?
The Mozilla foundation shouldn't bet too strong on a Free app to make money. What would happen if Microsoft decides to rename Firefox to something else and distribute it with Windows Vista SP1? Will Microsoft get all the money from the searches done with it? I'd say yes...
Ubuntu might decide to rename it too and get some money. And Fedora. And Suse...
I'm not saying I'd like this scenario, but the Mozilla Foundation should try to stay in good relationship with Open Source and not become too greedy or Firefox will split into 100 clones each one getting its share of the money.
Member since:2006-11-24
So I guess it wouldn't be right to quote that famous Mao quote?
http://eu.mozdev.org/Brussels2003/talks/brian/slide24.html
Member since:
2005-08-26
Firefox 1 was great.
2 is O.K.
3 is utter bloated shite.
Thunderbird is actually a really freakin' good email application. I love it. If they could commit to integrating some decent calendar support, it'd be top-notch.
I hate you, Mozilla Foundation. You've bastardized everything.
Member since:2005-07-30
How can say that 3.0 is utter bloated shite, when it hasn't even reached beta stage? Are you judging from the alphas? Do you even realize that alpha's aren't even feature complete, let alone optimized?
How will Thunderbird become a worse application if it is managed by a separate organization? Have you considered that a spinning-off Thunderbird would actually give the devs more freedom to decide which what TB should develop (think integrating calender support).
I am disappointed by the responses of many of the readers. It seems illogical dislike of corporation and corporate behavior is the norm in much of the OSS world.
Mozilla's aim is to maintain a free open web. Spinning off Thunderbird is simply a tactical move to implement their general strategy. Like it or not, for the average user webmail is the way to access email. In terms of the bigger picture, spinning off Thunderbird makes sense both for Mozilla, Thunderbird and those of us who want an open accessible web.
The whole "Google is responsible for this!" is rabid bullshit. If you read Mitchell Baker's blog post on this issue, it becomes obvious that MoFo is simply looking for new ways to manage the Thunderbird project.
I applaud Mozilla's team for making tough decisions even when they go against populist mentality. Remember all the paranoia regarding the creation of the Mozilla Corporation? Where did that go? Nothing really changed, Mozilla simply got more flexible...
I applaud the Mozilla Foundation
Member since:2006-11-24
I wonder when Firefox becomes that big that it'll be forked into separate applications? They did it with Netscape/Mozilla, which they forked into Thunderbird, Firefox, Sunbird, Nvu, and Chatzilla. They then dumped Nvu and Chatzilla, and now Thunderbird and Sunbird/Lightning are on their way out as well.
So how big will Firefox get? Firefox will eventually reach that point where the thing will become more of a "web suite" than just a browser.
Wait a minute....have I coined a new term?!
Member since:2005-07-30
Member since:2006-03-13
Firefox 1 was great.
Firefox 1 was somewhat unstable, and extension management wasn't so hot.
2 is O.K.
You missed 1.5, which had severe problems initially before stabilizing. 1.5 probably was the worst when it came to memory management.
2.0.0.5 incorporates good extension management, its pretty stable, and it doesn't keep gobbling RAM. On Linux, it's actually pretty fast.
3 is utter bloated shite.
3 is Alpha software. It's entitled to be "shite." Start complaining closer to the official release.
What I like best with both Thunderbird and Firefox is the ability to minimize security concerns. With Thunderbird, something as simple as turning off Javascript, and displaying all messages as plain text goes a long way to making it a secure app.
Firefox, when combined with extensions, lets me closely manage Javascript, Java, Flash, cookies, and third party inclusions. Coupled with a good response time for security flaws, and Firefox becomes the most secure browser out there.
Member since:2005-07-07
Member since:2006-08-29
Member since:
2007-01-18
Then again maybe it's a good thing. Maybe Thunderbird will get the attention it needs and will move into the realm of becoming a replacement for Outlook like programs through extensions and modular design.
Then again maybe we are seeing the end of Thunderbird (only to be renamed something else and have it's direction changed).
Member since:
2006-11-24
It's the logical thing. OpenOffice.org could be, and should be distributing Thunderbird, not Mozilla.
It would be the perfect combo in comparison to Microsoft Office, since it would allow for both creation and transmission of documents and presentations.
I mean face it, the days of the Internet Suite (Netscape, etc.) as we know it are dead. Since email stays on the hard drive with other files, while web stuff (web video, webmail, web encyclopedia) reside online and can disappear at the whim of the provider, it seems long past time to separate the two further from each other.
Firefox should just be a web browser, a client that serves HTML pages and interacts with HTML/XML servers. Thunderbird, OTOH, should simply be a client that serves and interacts with email servers, and do so with as much flair and customization as the user wills it.
(Yes, I know that Opera is an internet suite, and I can see them dropping everything but the web browser in the future, as even chat sites will move online)
Member since:2005-11-13
It's the logical thing. OpenOffice.org could be, and should be distributing Thunderbird, not Mozilla.
I don't really care who distributes it, so long as I can get it without OpenOffice. I have no interest at all in OO.o. Firefox and Thunderbird are both good apps. OO.o is not, IMHO.
Member since:2005-07-11
I mean face it, the days of the Internet Suite (Netscape, etc.) as we know it are dead. Since email stays on the hard drive with other files, while web stuff (web video, webmail, web encyclopedia) reside online and can disappear at the whim of the provider, it seems long past time to separate the two further from each other.
I take it you've never heard of or used IMAP for e-mail, where you use a local e-mail client to access messages stored on a remote server.
Haven't had a local piece of mail on any of my systems in over 5 years, and have access to the same folders/messages no matter what IMAP client I use (KMail, Thunderbird, Evolution, Outlook/Express, Pegasus Mail, SquirrelMail, etc) or which computer I run it on.
There's more to the e-mail world than the antiquated POP3.
Corporate mail systems don't (or shouldn't, if they have decent admins) store mail on client (local) harddrives. It's time more non-corporate mail systems started doing the same.
RE[2]: OpenOffice.org + Thunderbird
Member since:2005-07-06
Even if you don't have any illegal activities to hide, your e-mail may still contain very sensitive information.
What do you think will happen to you if one of your google mail leaks information on a new product you company is working on to one of its competitors.
What if you are applying for a new job, would you like your current employer to know.
Even if the mail isn't sensitive, what if you happen to get ill, and unable to check your mail for a few months and google decides to delete your account as you are no longer an active user.
This is why mail better stays on server under your control. I'm not saying that mail can't leak from your own servers, but if you are in control you can decide on what security is needed.
Besides, real e-mail clients like Thunderbird is much better to handle large amount of mail than e.g. google mail. For one thing it allows for you to encrypt sensitive stuff.
Member since:2005-08-11
"I mean, what do they have to hide about their email (unless its something involving a money transaction)?"
That's enough reason right there. I can reasonably trust my bank to only screw me in certain, definable ways, I have no idea how Google or Yahoo could screw me, and therefore cannot prepare for it.
Member since:
2007-06-24
Only Firefox browsers supported for now
Found on this page: http://support-stage.mozilla.org/tiki-index.php?page=Mozilla%20...
Nice mentality. After Internet Explorer dictatorship, Firefox dictatorship with more and more Firefox-only web sites on the web.
Member since:2006-11-24
Member since:2006-02-01
Member since:2007-06-24
Member since:2007-02-22
Member since:2007-07-30
Nice mentality. . . .
That notice was added because the site scripts are still being debugged (by me and others) for IE6 and IE7 compatibility. (The site runs on Tikiwiki and no-tables liquid layouts in dynamic CMS/wikis can be tricky in those browsers.) Keep in mind the site isn't at the rollout stage yet.
Obviously, presenting the site nicely to users of other browsers an important part of encouraging broader use of Firefox. I'm pretty sure the Mozilla people didn't mean this temporary notice to be interpreted as overall Firefox project policy. ;-)
Gary
http://themes.tikiwiki.org
http://www.zukakakina.com
Member since:
2006-02-01
It's a shame that this is what they've come to. Instead of maybe growing as an organization and just gather more resources to continue the great work being done with Thunderbird. But who am I to say... I'm only an outsider who uses Thunderbird on a regular basis, but I suppose that it already does pretty much everything I need right now anyway... So until there is a feature that I'm really in dire need of I don't see what Thunderbird can't still be extremely useful. I hope this doesn't mean that security updates will come to a stop...
Maybe I just need to get use to using evolution instead, which does what I need as well. Ah well.
Member since:
2006-03-13
A little anecdotal evidence:
In my immediate family, I am the only one who still uses Thunderbird. Putting it another way, I am the only one who uses a POP3 style e-mail account. The rest of my family have moved to Web based accounts. They use Firefox to access their e-mail. From what I read online, that seems part of a larger trend. People are reading their e-mail with a Web browser.
I love Thunderbird. It does what it does extremely well, but it has always been the "neglected sister" when compared to Firefox. Whatever happens, I hope it continues its modest development.
A big "thank you" to the Thunderbird team for what you have done so far, and here's hoping you folks hang around.
Member since:2005-11-21
Member since:
2006-08-17
To be honest, Mozilla has really lost their way. I think I predicted this when they went from Mozilla Foundation to Mozilla Corporation.
But for the end user, it will really not matter.
At least on Linux, evolution is the best email client. I use it in my gnome 2.11.x has a bogofilter plugin. Evolution should work really well on kde and xfce as well. There's also kmail for kde users. So most people won't miss thunderbird.
In any case, this isn't big news. People can always use seamonkey, another product not offcially supported by Mozilla Foundation.
Edited 2007-07-27 23:36
Member since:2007-02-22
To be honest, Mozilla has really lost their way.
I disagree. IIRC, the Mozilla Corporation was made so Mozilla could sell merchandise and sign referral agreements with Google and the like, to fund development without the Mozilla Foundation losing its nonprofit status. They aren't engaging in any deceptive or anticompetitive business practices, and the corporation is privately held. It's just a way for Mozilla to fund its developers and support its products--as far as I know, nobody's getting filthy rich thanks to Mozilla corp (unless you count Google).
Perhaps they are a 'sellout' for leaving behind users of their other projects, like the app suite and Thunderbird. They've all been eclipsed by Firefox fever. Nonetheless, that doesn't necessarily make Mozilla an 'evil' corporation (not saying you are implying that--but a lot of others are). And, regardless, I think the same thing would have happened to Thunderbird if the Mozilla Corporation didn't exist, perhaps even sooner than it did.
Being a Thunderbird user myself, I'm interested in seeing how all of this will pan out. IMO, Tb has a different niche than Kmail or Evolution and isn't really directly competing with them. Thunderbird is more 'minimalist' than Kmail and Evolution, both of which have 'kitchen-sink syndrome' to some (though if worst came to worst, I have no problem transitioning to Evolution). Thunderbird also has better cross-platform support and is more extensible than Evolution or Kmail.
Edited 2007-07-28 00:01
Member since:
2007-02-22
What would this mean to the Penelope project, where Eudora was going to be rewritten using Thunderbird as a starting point?
And calm down, kids. The app suite was 'disowned' by Mozilla and taken over by the SeaMonkey team, and it's doing fine now; I suspect the same will happen here with Thunderbird. This has nothing to do with greed or 'evil corporations'. Thunderbird simply isn't as successful as its browser counterpart, and as Mozilla grows, it's going to need to focus more of its resources on Firefox.
Member since:
2005-07-06
I used Firefox back in the Phoenix (from about 0.2 I believe) days and enjoyed it. Found it better than my then browser Opera 5.x.
I even switched. I used it right up to about 0.8 or whenever the 2nd name change happened (that was really dumb guys btw, Firebird? Who wasn't thinking?)
Probably about that time I started using Thunderbird too.
Then Opera came out with new versions and - to me it has got better while Firefox has gotten worse (and more derivative) as it's gone on since.
However I'm still using Thunderbird and still think it's a pretty damn good mail client.
So seeing it being sidelined because seemingly it doesn't have the market penetration, just seems a bit contemptuous to me; only focusing on the successful items. Well if that attitude had been taken on originally, then NOTHING would have been taken on.
Poor show.
Member since:
2006-06-02
Member since:
2005-08-21
Someone mentioned Mozilla foundation getting funding from Google earlier on the thread. As we all know Google is big on searches and sees a future in internet based applications (Google earth, etc.). "Recently" they started an online e-mail service which is free. The terms of the contract Mozilla struck with Google are not known (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Foundation#Funding).
Based on the assumption that Google actually has something to gain from more online mail users and that they don't gain anything from people who use a mail client outside their control* my guess is that they pushed the Mozilla foundation to "streamline" Thunderbird away. Especially if you take into consideration how closely tied Firefox already is to Google. For them it is not an loss, should Thunderbird loose in popularity or even disappear from the market as an effect. It is a net gain.
Stating the obvious? Maybe.
*[since they can not monitor that mail traffic as easily and provide tailored searches or sell information to market researchers or whatever they do without end user knowing]
Member since:2007-03-30
Member since:2005-11-11
>Based on the assumption that Google actually has
>something to gain from more online mail users and
>that they don't gain anything from people who use a
>mail client outside their control* my guess is that
>they pushed the Mozilla foundation to "streamline"
>Thunderbird away.
Interesting point. But if they were really that interested in having everyone read their email online, why would they make Gmail usable with POP and SMTP? 8 ball says "unclear" and I sure as heck don't know
>> I hate you, Mozilla Foundation. You've bastardized everything.
> Damn Scots, ruined Scotland.
The Picts might agree with that (though I guess they'd more likely have said that the Scots ruined Pictland) 
Who knows though, they didn't leave a ton of records.
Member since:2005-07-08
Member since:
2006-01-23
It seems sad that they're thinking of offloading one of their two main products.
If it stays with the team, it probably has a good chance of survival. If it would go to other Mozilla employees as a free project, it might not last long. Further, if it would end up in the hands of the Eudora developers, it will be ruined in a minute.
I can use a web interface for Google or Yahoo! e-mail, but it's not easy to keep track of things, though the beta Yahoo! interface is much better than the old one. I just don't find any web interface to be efficient. It's what you do when you don't have an alternative.
Thunderbird has a way to go, but it's an application that works well for e-mail and hopefully, they could get version 3.0 out the door before closing the book on it.