Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 6th Aug 2007 21:50 UTC, submitted by anonymous
BSD and Darwin derivatives The sixth major DragonFly BSD release, version 1.10, was announced today by project creator Matthew Dillon. Billed as "more stable than the 1.8 release", it includes improved virtual kernel support, a new disk management infrastructure, improvements to wireless networking, and support for the new syslink protocol. As to what all that means, KernelTrap has just posted an interview with Dillon. Going beyond today's 1.10 release, the interview explores DragonFly's new clustering high-availability filesystem which sounds superior to ZFS, the project's goals for the 2.0 release expected in six months, and a comparison of the BSD license versus the GPL.
Order by: Score:
we shall see
by poundsmack on Mon 6th Aug 2007 22:16 UTC
poundsmack
Member since:
2005-07-13

"the interview explores DragonFly's new clustering high-availability filesystem which sounds superior to ZFS"

sounds is one thing. as far as an actual implimentation well i guess we will have to wait and see. I wish them luck.

Reply Score: 8

RE: we shall see
by yorthen on Tue 7th Aug 2007 08:50 UTC in reply to "we shall see"
yorthen Member since:
2005-07-06

The DF filesystem and ZFS does not even have to same goals, so to claim that one sees to be superior to the other is quite weird in my opinion. ZFS was considered but was rejected (though with userland FS support coming it might be ported over anyway) since it was not suitable for clustered storage on multiple machines potentially connected over slow links.

Reply Score: 3

RE: we shall see
by butters on Tue 7th Aug 2007 16:12 UTC in reply to "we shall see"
butters Member since:
2005-07-08

There are two main differences between DF's clustering filesystem and ZFS. First, it's intended to (eventually) manage storage devices that are distributed amongst several cluster nodes. Also, it uses live snapshots for redundancy as well as for backup, eliminating the need for an integrated storage layer.

I was surprised to learn that the Matt is developing the clustering filesystem via the userspace VFS API instead of putting it in the kernel. Perhaps there are plans to port it to the kernel once the userspace implementation reaches a certain milestone.

My theory on filesystem design calls for a heap-like storage layer that provides a logical extent abstraction to client filesystems. Filesystem consistency can be guaranteed with proper design, while physical storage is subject to unavoidable corruption and failure. So it makes more sense (to me) to implement redundancy at the storage level rather than at the filesystem level.

But Matt hails from the world of commercial database development, so he has a good handle on these sorts of things.

Edited 2007-08-07 16:14

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: we shall see
by yorthen on Wed 8th Aug 2007 09:58 UTC in reply to "RE: we shall see"
yorthen Member since:
2005-07-06

"I was surprised to learn that the Matt is developing the clustering filesystem via the userspace VFS API instead of putting it in the kernel. Perhaps there are plans to port it to the kernel once the userspace implementation reaches a certain milestone."

The same reason he developed the virtual kernel (running kernel in userland), it's so much easier to develop. You don't have to reboot your computer to see if it worked, and if it doesn't you wont crash the whole system. I suspect that, like you said, when the code reaches a certain maturity level it will be put in kernelspace, you simply can't get enough performance in userland.

Reply Score: 1

Users of Dragonfly
by jadeshade on Mon 6th Aug 2007 22:26 UTC
jadeshade
Member since:
2007-07-10

Is there anyone on OSNews that has experience with Dragonfly? I tried to set it up on an older machine and could navigate (for the most part) through configuration and networking, but couldn't get pkgsrc binaries work (compiles + old hardware is not fun, but I couldn't even get that working).

Reply Score: 1

RE: Users of Dragonfly
by yorthen on Tue 7th Aug 2007 08:46 UTC in reply to "Users of Dragonfly"
yorthen Member since:
2005-07-06

Which version did you try? pkgsrc support has improved greatly since it was first introduced. To get binaries to work all you have to do is set an environment variable containing the path to the packages and then type "pkg_add pkg_name" and all that is needed will be downloaded and installed. If the last version you tried was before 1.6 I would recommend you to try again.

Reply Score: 2

v Anybody know
by LightRider on Tue 7th Aug 2007 00:16 UTC
RE: Anybody know
by Zoidberg on Tue 7th Aug 2007 02:20 UTC in reply to "Anybody know"
Zoidberg Member since:
2006-02-11

That wouldn't be progress, that would be silly. The BSDs are not aimed at the desktop market, it's mainly used for servers. Of course you certainly can install xorg and a desktop of your choice. If you don't know how to do that though you probably shouldn't be using BSD.

Edited 2007-08-07 02:20

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Anybody know
by UltraZelda64 on Tue 7th Aug 2007 05:01 UTC in reply to "RE: Anybody know"
UltraZelda64 Member since:
2006-12-05

"If you don't know how to do that though you probably shouldn't be using BSD."

I agree for the most part, but there's always the ability to learn. It just takes a certain type of thinking, lots of learning (reading), and patience... I went from a complete Windows user, helpless at the command line, to being somewhat decent at the command line and able to install a GUI in certain distros... if I recall correctly, FreeBSD was one of the BSDs I got a GUI working with. OpenBSD was the only one I couldn't even get installed.

But yeah... if LightRider keeps his stance on not wanting to even install a GUI himself, I would say he might as well try PC-BSD or DesktopBSD.

[To be fair, I did mess around on the command line when I was way younger, on an Apple IIe and later a Gateway2000 with Win95/real-mode DOS. Said "good riddance" to the command line years ago never expecting to come back, and now I'm using it more than I have since the Apple IIe days (though the GUI takes top priority, by far... I'm just too used to it). :p ]

Edited 2007-08-07 05:06

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Anybody know
by happycamper on Tue 7th Aug 2007 06:30 UTC in reply to "RE: Anybody know"
happycamper Member since:
2006-01-01

"If you don't know how to do that though you probably shouldn't be using BSD"

what kind of a response is that. you cant say that, if he does not know how at least lead him to couple sites that will show him how.

http://leaf.dragonflybsd.org/~justin/handbook/x11.html

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Anybody know
by bryanv on Tue 7th Aug 2007 15:44 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Anybody know"
bryanv Member since:
2005-08-26

"If you don't know how to do that though you probably shouldn't be using BSD"


Maybe what the poster was really saying is: If you can't figure out where to learn how to do it, you probably shouldn't be using BSD.

It's not a matter of what you know / what you don't know, but your ABILITY to LEARN or teach yourself. If an individual is lacking knowledge, that's a totally different problem than a person lacking the ability to gain knowledge.

People who lack knowledge but are able to gain it on their own are typically the types of people you'll find using BSD. Critical thinkers and problem solvers - which are skills you're going to need if you want to do anything useful with BSD.

I agree with the original response, and I don't think it was unfounded. If the person can't figure out how to get a desktop installed on it, they probably don't know how to learn to do it, and they probably shouldn't be using BSD in the first place.

Call me elitist, but I'm tired of pandering to idiots.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Anybody know
by Flatland_Spider on Wed 8th Aug 2007 20:39 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Anybody know"
Flatland_Spider Member since:
2006-09-01

It should also be pointed out that the original post was pretty ignorant to begin with.

If the poster has had asked for information on how to get Dfly to boot into GUI mode, it would have been a different story. As it stands the poster looks like someone who installed Ubuntu for the first time then goes around saying he's a 'leet hacker.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Anybody know
by Oliver on Tue 7th Aug 2007 07:35 UTC in reply to "RE: Anybody know"
Oliver Member since:
2006-07-15

Just huge nonsense. The self-proclaimed goal of FreeBSD is the desktop too (Scott Long, 2006) and people from Open or Net didn't refuse the desktop at all. In fact there are a lot of people using all kind of *BSD at the desktop without any problems.

Reply Score: 7

RE[3]: Anybody know
by marafaka on Tue 7th Aug 2007 08:45 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Anybody know"
marafaka Member since:
2006-01-03

Managing a BSD desktop requires a lot of knowledge and time. BSD is not for casual computer users, saying otherwise could lead to disappointments.

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: Anybody know
by dagw on Tue 7th Aug 2007 10:39 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Anybody know"
dagw Member since:
2005-07-06

Or you could install desktopBSD or PC BSD and have most things working right out of the box.

Reply Score: 5

RE[4]: Anybody know
by Redeeman on Tue 7th Aug 2007 11:44 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Anybody know"
Redeeman Member since:
2006-03-23

it doesent really require much more knowledge than managing any other desktop.. perhaps a bit more than linux for some hardware compatibility, other than that, not really.

and as far as desktop goes, its a hell of a lot easier to manage than winblows..

Reply Score: 4

RE[5]: Anybody know
by marafaka on Tue 7th Aug 2007 13:26 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Anybody know"
marafaka Member since:
2006-01-03

How much is 'much more'? I like FreeBSD, manage FreeBSD Gnome desktops for couple close friends, it's easy and fun for both, but they're hooked on me. This is not very good, so I often recommend other systems to other people.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: Anybody know
by Redeeman on Tue 7th Aug 2007 20:05 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Anybody know"
Redeeman Member since:
2006-03-23

it is an artificial dependency which only exists because they believe they can not manage without.

both linux dists and freebsd is quite userfriendly, more so than winblows is, yet people say they cant figure out how to use it, that its too hard, all that crap, it only exists cause they bbelieve it to be so.

like when children are taught to ride the bike without helping wheels, they do not believe themselves able to drive, and the parents will lie and say that they are holding the balance on the bike, when in reality they do not, and the child is driving the bike excellently.

so the thing is, its not changes in the systems thats required, its an extremely simple mindset change, one which also shouldnt be required in the first place. its quite disturbing actually that people would simply be convinced that they cannot use something, that they would consider themselves inferior, though, i suspect that they do not see it that way, they probably consider the other thing inferior and ugly hard to use, when in fact its them that are morons..

anyway, you get the point.

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: Anybody know
by marafaka on Wed 8th Aug 2007 05:36 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Anybody know"
marafaka Member since:
2006-01-03

Maybe not completely true, but I like the spirit ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Anybody know
by Oliver on Tue 7th Aug 2007 11:54 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Anybody know"
Oliver Member since:
2006-07-15

*Computer* is not for casual computer users,
saying otherwise could lead to disappointments.

Would be the correct saying.

"Computers Are Hard

Accept it. Move on. Your life will be much simpler.

Accept that it'll take work. Accept that it'll take learning. Accept that it'll take trial and error. Accept that it'll mean just accepting things without understanding why until further down the road. Once you do that, you'll discover that learning computer technology isn't like opening an envelope and seeing what's inside; it's like watching a rose open, petal by petal... and no matter how long you watch, there's always another petal with another layer of beauty beneath it."

http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/rants/winstupid/winstupid5.php

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Anybody know
by Oliver on Tue 7th Aug 2007 11:58 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Anybody know"
Oliver Member since:
2006-07-15

Maybe this is *your* problem you're talking of

http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/rants/winstupid/winstupid5.php

"Computers Are Hard

Accept it. Move on. Your life will be much simpler.

Accept that it'll take work. Accept that it'll take learning. Accept that it'll take trial and error. Accept that it'll mean just accepting things without understanding why until further down the road. Once you do that, you'll discover that learning computer technology isn't like opening an envelope and seeing what's inside; it's like watching a rose open, petal by petal... and no matter how long you watch, there's always another petal with another layer of beauty beneath it."

BSD is easy as hell, if you're able at least able to complete high school.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Anybody know
by marafaka on Tue 7th Aug 2007 13:30 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Anybody know"
marafaka Member since:
2006-01-03

"BSD is easy as hell, if you're able at least able to complete high school."

Yeah, if it was that simple ;) Anyway, my job is to make computing easy and I don't accept any other reality.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Anybody know
by bryanv on Tue 7th Aug 2007 15:45 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Anybody know"
bryanv Member since:
2005-08-26

Scott Long, 2006

Well after the DragonFly fork.

DUH!

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Anybody know
by Janizary on Tue 7th Aug 2007 23:48 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Anybody know"
Janizary Member since:
2006-03-12

So, Scott Long is the only developer of FreeBSD then? This happened in 2006 you say? Honestly, you'd think they'd have let us know that.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Anybody know
by Tuishimi on Tue 7th Aug 2007 02:34 UTC in reply to "Anybody know"
Tuishimi Member since:
2005-07-06

I got gnome up on it once a long time ago, in an early version. Haven't really played with it since... but I am sure it will be a kick-butt distro once it is stable and polished (by stable I mean development has reached the point where all major goals have been reached - if it hasn't already gotten there).

Reply Score: 2

RE: Anybody know
by ml2mst on Tue 7th Aug 2007 03:47 UTC in reply to "Anybody know"
ml2mst Member since:
2005-08-27

LightRider, if your looking for a Desktop oriented BSD then PC-BSD is probably the best choice. It comes up with a complete graphical based installer and KDE out of the box:

http://www.pcbsd.org/

Reply Score: 2

RE: Anybody know
by BSDfan on Tue 7th Aug 2007 01:10 UTC
BSDfan
Member since:
2007-03-14

Clearly you have no idea about the goals of DragonFlyBSD or any BSD for that matter.

Graphical interfaces are not important, DragonFlyBSD's purpose is clustering.. As such a monitor is usually not even a requirement ;)

Perhaps you should "learn something" before posting such useless dribble?

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Anybody know
by Tuishimi on Tue 7th Aug 2007 02:36 UTC in reply to "RE: Anybody know"
Tuishimi Member since:
2005-07-06

Odd. I managed several VMS clusters years ago and we ran X-Windows on them. I guess someone should have told DEC that having X-Windows on a clustered time-share/file server is a stoooopid goal.

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: Anybody know
by Zoidberg on Tue 7th Aug 2007 02:42 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Anybody know"
Zoidberg Member since:
2006-02-11

Nothing is stopping anyone from running x-windows on BSD either. If you are managing clusters you should certainly know how to install a GUI if you want one. Many servers don't even have a monitor attached, and even for those that do a desktop manager is simply not needed. How does it make any sense for DragonFlyBSD to automatically boot up into Gnome or KDE? If you want it install it, it's not hard. Again, that's a silly and invalid complaint.

Edited 2007-08-07 02:45

Reply Score: 6

RE[3]: Anybody know
by monodeldiablo on Tue 7th Aug 2007 04:56 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Anybody know"
monodeldiablo Member since:
2005-07-06

No, but someone should have taught you how to read more closely.

Although crudely spoken, BSDFan didn't say anything negative about DEC, X-Windows or people who use them. He didn't say that they were impossible, impractical or stupid.

He said that "a monitor is usually not even a requirement ;) " for nodes in a cluster, which is true. He even added a smiley so as not to piss folks off. With limited success.

His facts are sound. BSDFan's tone could use an adjustment, though, as could yours. And mine, for that matter.

OSNews could stand a little more civility all around.

[Edited for manners]

Edited 2007-08-07 05:05

Reply Score: 4

RE[4]: Anybody know
by Tuishimi on Tue 7th Aug 2007 05:50 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Anybody know"
Tuishimi Member since:
2005-07-06

You are probably right. ;)

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Anybody know
by fretinator on Tue 7th Aug 2007 03:08 UTC in reply to "RE: Anybody know"
fretinator Member since:
2005-07-06

Perhaps you should "learn something" before posting such useless dribble?


1. Drivel
2. Not so harsh, it hurts BSD.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Anybody know
by puenktchen on Tue 7th Aug 2007 06:13 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Anybody know"
puenktchen Member since:
2007-07-27

>> .. posting such useless dribble?
> 1. Drivel

according to my dictionary, both words are correct:

> dribble .. foolish talk or ideas; nonsense .... Sense 2 of the noun may have been influenced by drivel.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Anybody know
by bryanv on Tue 7th Aug 2007 15:47 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Anybody know"
bryanv Member since:
2005-08-26

You must have one of those "new age" dictionaries full of words that uneducated idiots use.

What's it say for "shizzle"?

And I suppose it also has "mute point" to boot.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Anybody know
by Oliver on Tue 7th Aug 2007 07:38 UTC in reply to "RE: Anybody know"
Oliver Member since:
2006-07-15

You too, *BSD is more than a niche for some specific area. *BSD are allround operating systems ready to conquer every area.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Anybody know
by Doc Pain on Wed 8th Aug 2007 20:56 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Anybody know"
Doc Pain Member since:
2006-10-08

"*BSD are allround operating systems ready to conquer every area."

From my individual experience, this statement can be judged to be true. FreeBSD is not "for servers only", or "for desktops only". In fact, it's a great OS for both of them, and even for combined systems (desktop meachines with server functionality). DFBSD offers a great approach to clustered computing. This develops chances for BSD in another important field of computer use.

If you do look into special fields of computing, you'll see different requirements. Just the same kind of relation as between TSO and MVT applies here.

My final statement, as usual: Just use the right tool. :-)

Reply Score: 2

Dragonfly---FreeBSD
by hitest on Tue 7th Aug 2007 03:33 UTC
hitest
Member since:
2006-10-28

It sounds interesting. I've run FreeBSD 5x, 6.1, 6.2.
Is DragonflyBSD similar to FreeBSD? Just curious:-)

Reply Score: 1

RE: Dragonfly---FreeBSD
by Doc Pain on Tue 7th Aug 2007 05:16 UTC in reply to "Dragonfly---FreeBSD"
Doc Pain Member since:
2006-10-08

It sounds interesting. I've run FreeBSD 5x, 6.1, 6.2.
Is DragonflyBSD similar to FreeBSD? Just curious:-)"


DFBSD is derived from the FreeBSD 4 series (fork after FreeBSD 4.8 according to /usr/share/misc/bsd-family-tree), so it should contain most stuff you know from the FreeBSD 4 series operating systems, for example, rc.* startup insted of /etc/rc.d mechanism. Kernel and userland are optimized for clustering operations, but DFBSD would be a viable desktop OS, too - if you don't mind installing desktop typical software.

Reply Score: 3

v RE[3]: Anybody know
by BSDfan on Tue 7th Aug 2007 04:44 UTC
Dragonfly keeps getting better
by nevali on Tue 7th Aug 2007 12:35 UTC
nevali
Member since:
2006-10-12

DFBSD gets more interesting with each passing release. I really applaud what Matt Dillion's doing with it: he found a niche that wasn't really catered for and ran with it, developing in the way he thought was best and bringing along a dozen or so folks who agreed. In many respects, it's much how Linus develops Linux—it's just that the niches (if you can call them that any more), and by extension the aims, are quite different [and do, of course, change over time].

I'm gearing up to replace my ageing gateway/server at home with a new box at the end of the month. It's currently running FreeBSD, but I'm seriously considering DFBSD instead, especially with the jail extensions it has (multiple IPs!) from a few releases back, and the new virtual kernel support.

Reply Score: 1

I have used PC-BSD
by LightRider on Tue 7th Aug 2007 17:48 UTC
LightRider
Member since:
2007-08-05

and found it pretty good. I was just asking if it had
a gui. i do not want to mess with anything that boots
up to a command prompt. Well you gave me the answer so
i will not be trying it. I mostly use Mac OS X so i'm
used to residing on the mountain top.

Reply Score: 1

RE: I have used PC-BSD
by Redeeman on Tue 7th Aug 2007 20:21 UTC in reply to "I have used PC-BSD"
Redeeman Member since:
2006-03-23

Yeah, i have heard about those huge mountains of "waste" at the end of sewer pipes.. how does it feel up there on the top? ;)

Reply Score: 2

Dillon...
by ebasconp on Wed 8th Aug 2007 00:49 UTC
ebasconp
Member since:
2006-05-09

... is a genious!!!

Reply Score: 3