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There are free options that work very well and for free.

This message brought to you by the Department of Redundancy Department.

But seriously, this is a great example of why DRM is a really bad idea. If MS has a bad day (server-wise), then so does the rest of the world (literally).

>>There are free options that work very well and for
>> free.

>This message brought to you by the Department of
>Redundancy Department.

There are free(libre) options that work very well and for free(no-cost).

I think it's time you wake up and realise that even with redundancy, it's technology and things can break. Didn't Ubuntu servers have an outage last week? Gee, I guess it's time to drop Ubuntu as well.

"I think it's time you wake up and realise that even with redundancy, it's technology and things can break. Didn't Ubuntu servers have an outage last week? Gee, I guess it's time to drop Ubuntu as well."

Are you referring to this incident?:
http://www.linuxinsider.com/rsstory/58929.html

Not exactly on the same scale as this Microsoft WGA 'SNAFU'!

Anyway, it "seems" to be resolved:
http://blogs.msdn.com/wga/archive/2007/08/25/validation-issue-fix.a...

Glad it didn't take 3+ days to fix, as I assume MS is as well. That would be difficult to explain away.

It is not even remotely comparable to the WGA-breakdown. It is more comparable with Windows Update being inaccessible. Two quite different scenarios.

"It is not even remotely comparable to the WGA-breakdown. It is more comparable with Windows Update being inaccessible. Two quite different scenarios."

I'm assuming you were actually replying to the 'parent' post, considering I said:

"Not exactly on the same scale as this Microsoft WGA 'SNAFU'! "

And by the way, the Ubuntu update functionality was never at risk (if you would have bothered to read the linked article, that would be apparent). Settle down, I'm on your side, I said the WGA outage wasn't comparable to the Ubuntu partial outage, so what's your point?

aahh..yes... It is the parent poster

I did read the link - enough to see that it was a completely different issue, and that it did affect updates (by shutting down 60% of the servers - a wise choice - not unlike packages.gentoo.org being offline for a while - but then again - that's even less critical (for some))

And did you have the impression that any of the Ubuntu installation forcefully degraded their subsystems because of this?

Or did they actually continue to work as usual because there is not built-in suicide mechanism in case it can't contact the mothership?

wga doesn't stop real software pirates it only stops joe user from installing windows from a friends copy

I believe the "forcefully degrading subsystems" the parent was referring to are those of the Windows installations all over teh world, not the server itself. It's simple enough... they are being forced artificially to degrade (not work correctly if at all), simply because the server that normally tells them "this isn't a criminal, it's alright to function today" fell over.

While it might not have been intended as a suicide mechanism, I'd say that is exactly what it is for potentially millions of "law-abiding" people who just wanted to get some cocking work done today. None of their fault, 100% their problem, and a fix not expected for a further 3 days? I'd be suicidal myself...

Though I don't use Windows (when I have a choice) I feel colossally angry on behalf of anyone affected by this, that Microsoft lacked the imagination to devise a workaround for when this happened (because who could have doubted that it would, sooner or later?). And how much comfort do you suppose "It's because so many people are warezing XP" is going to be to these people? Collective punishment is all very well in the classroom ("nobody goes home until who wrote that on the blackboard confesses!" etc.) but why the hell should consumers, people who have paid money, be treated in that manner? It is beneath contempt.

I wonder how happy people will be who had to do some urgent work this weekend... =|

From what I've read so far, not being able to validate doesn't limit your copy of Windows and stop you from working at all.

It will if you're trying to validate a new copy of Windows, something that happens thousands of times a day, worldwide. That would stop a lot of people working, for sure.

The implementation of WGA is a product of the end-user's desire not to pay for their operating system.

Is this desire something we should be suppressing or satisfying? We humans are chock-full of desires, and happiness is generally contingent on getting what we want at least some of the time.

It's not realistic to demand free goods and services. But technology is such that it's both feasible to provide and difficult to prevent free information. The question of whether information should be free is one of the defining issues of our time.

Digital technology redefined information in the same way that nuclear technology redefined conflict. It isn't clear if either secrets or war are effective solutions to anything anymore. Secrets are giving way to lies. War is giving way to conspiracy.

Computers don't keep secrets, but they can be programmed to obscure information. The content vendors know that consumers will follow the trail of coverups, so they made the discovery of secrets a felony offense in the so-called land of the free.

The war on piracy is the mother of all conspiracies. We've been given the right to keep secrets to protect profit but not to protect freedom. Never before have our leaders' priorities been articulated so clearly.

The land of the profit has a lot in common with the land of the prophet. We give up our freedom over the same homophone.

Sound familiar?

Touché.

delete ?

why ?

there is no censorship here.

that original post was the authors own view, he has as much right to say them as you had to reply.

instead of coming up with a good counter-argument, you say "delete".... good comeback

Heh... notice the post is edited? I think s/he was referring to his/her own post, probably a choice remark self-censored in hindsight, not the parent.

Folks are on a hair-trigger in this thread ain't they

I don't wish to be rude, but as a Windows refugee, I can testify that it has a tendency to make you "hair-trigger."

But there is a huge amount of Software without any Linux compatible alternatives. Most of them are available on Mac though. So yes, it is time to drop Windows, but have a careful view of your software before deciding to switch to Linux or BSD... I couldn't/wouldn't want because those apps also are not compatible with wine.

imo, Microsoft needs to get rid of the WGA.

Edited 2007-08-25 20:58

On the other hand, it is actually a good thing they have this.

Joe User, who previously paid for all his Microsoft software, is inconvenienced. Even though he is fully legal, he will now understand, that Microsoft tars everyone with the same brush.

The funny thing is that those with an illegal, cracked version can just keep using Windows - WGA or no WGA ... quite insane.

This makes me concerned about having any future versions of Windows installed.

I've always wondered what's going to happen when Microsoft stops supporting XP and Vista--or if they somehow managed to go out of business.

When that happens, there will still be vintage hardware that run those operating systems, and that hardware will no doubt need OS reinstalls and updates eventually. Will those computers be be locked out of Windows, even though it was legitimately paid for? Will Microsoft 'unlock' Windows Product Activation so those older computers can still work? What would happen if Microsoft & its activation/validation servers got bombed in a war?

For those (perhaps paranoid) reasons, WPA has always scared me. It's kind of creepy and uncouth to begin with, but that's the straw that broke the camel's back for me. XP was the last version of Windows I bought, and that was way back in 2001. Ironically, Microsoft only has the bastard child of their attempt to sell more copies to blame. Their anti-piracy measures are the only thing that led me to seriously consider using Linux as my primary operating system, rather than a 'toy'.

To be fair, I've paid the 'Windows tax' twice on new computers I've bought since buying an upgrade copy of XP. However, I got such a steal on those computers that the cost of the 'tax' was irrelevant. I've used those copies of Windows (even using one to type this comment), but only out of convenience. When it comes time to do some OS upgrading, I won't even consider purchasing another version of Windows--that is, unless Microsoft puts an end to their anti-piracy DRM mess.

The problem is: define "legitimately paid for".
EULA's, closed / shrink-wrapped contracts / licencing / downloaded-content is continually weakening the concept of true ownership. Eventually the actual law will be a distant past forgotten by consumers, and the corporations will set new laws (DRM) as they see fit.

Personally I think it's going to continue to get so severely bad over the next five odd years that there's going to eventually be a market crash.

The BBC take away fair use rights with iPlayer, the ISPs then gang up on BBC. I hear karma whistling a tune, and Microsoft, SONY, Apple and all are going to be hearing it soon enough.

"Will those computers be be locked out of Windows, even though it was legitimately paid for?"

yes, without Microsoft, windows wont work. when you buy windows, you depend on Microsoft. they haven't made a plan that involves them disappearing, but the DO plan on forcibly obsoleting your version of windows so you can buy another version.

"but the DO plan on forcibly obsoleting your version of windows so you can buy another version."

I'm not sure how. They can stop distributing updates, but that hasn't stopped any Win98 users

Win9x users can install their OSes legally and without having a 30 day registration time limit to work around. WinXP users may end up being forced to use an illegal copy of XP Corporate (which installs without WPA or the time limit) in order to have any use of their computers after Microsoft EOL the OS...

Microsoft can't shutdown a Windows 9x installation remotely, can you say the same for Windows XP?

--bornagainpenguin

I've always wondered what's going to happen when Microsoft stops supporting XP and Vista--or if they somehow managed to go out of business.

Actually it is their way to make sure they do not go out of business. With all the monwy Microsoft have in the bank and their current installed user base, they need more than an incompetent management to go out of business.

The only thing that could do it woul be changes in legislation, or perhaps some legal action taken by the government of some large political body liket they EU, or the US government that have the financial means to fight Microsoft in court. Knowing how much trouble a broken Microsoft would cause the economy most governments would do anything in their power to keep Microsoft alive.

"Knowing how much trouble a broken Microsoft would cause the economy most governments would do anything in their power to keep Microsoft alive."

Yeah, what kind of trouble? Do you think that most governments wouldn't be able to function without Microsoft? Governments faced with that situation would get together and drum up an infrastructure center to work it all out.

Considering that many of them also have access to Windows source code, were Microsoft to disappear, they may as well decree that a team of scientists need to look at the source code and write sufficient documentation to have a second team who hasn't looked at the source code implement whatever they need, such as sufficient patches to "wine" to keep the Government's application functioning smoothly under Linux using wine.

You greatly overstate the world governments reliance on Microsoft products and their inability to move to anything else. In fact, many of them already have moved, more will, and some would find whatever workaround was needed. People are resilient and alternatives abound.

Edited 2007-08-26 22:38

Yes, governments can run without Microsoft, no doubt about that. The question is at what price.

How many politicians do you think want to tell the people who vote for them that they are going to develop and support an OS of their own instead of spending money on education, health care just because they have been stupid enough to develop all their internal software in windows only technologies?

Having the source code of windows is one thing, having the resources to support it fully on their own in their entire organization is quite another. To drum up an infrastructure center may not be as easy as you think when everybody with windows knowledge all of a sudden have many employers to chose from and will adjust their demands for salary accordingly. Similar things will happen with experts on alternative OS technologies.

You are also right that, many governments are switching. The problem is that these things takes time and requires a lot of planning to get done right.
If Microsoft would disappear over night there would be no time for such planning.

This is why Microsoft is in the position to hold governments hostages. This is also the reason why governments should move away from non free software. Free software is almost impossible to kill, as long as there is people willing to use it.

Seriously, why?

Those who have been concerned about it and its consequences have switched to other platforms.

The rest, while being the majority, has decided to just bitch and moan every time the inevitable happens (need to reinstall, need to upgrade, need to reactivate, etc), but are stubborn enough not to move themselves.

Therefor is Microsoft not loosing money because of WGA and if only a few buy legal licences instead of a pirated version they are currently running, they have gained money.

So far the customer base has accepted any kind of "unavoidable" drawbacks and they will so in the future.

Seriously, why?

From Microsoft point of view there is no reason to drop WPA and WGA until it irritates enough people that they make the switch.

For me the only reasons why I have windows installed are...
1. Games
2. Wife drivers

WiFi is now getting better in other operating systems and more accidents like this make reason one harder or prone to disruption. (Plus Wine can now run games like count strike source and HL2 quite well)

I am not bashing Windows Vista as it is a good operating system. However Microsoft policies are becoming irritating as I now cannot always use the product as intended even though I have bought the product legally.

For me the only reasons why I have windows installed are...
1. Games
2. Wife drivers

Oh!
Could you send my your wife drivers?

Edited 2007-08-26 00:34

Lol, Sure, Once I have a wife I will ask her!

Yes, the Wife drivers are also the main reason why I still keep a partition with Windows running.

2. Wife drivers

I hear that the latest version of GNUWife, V2.0 actually works better under Linux than the Microsoft version! The new ability to Nag-Block makes an unbelievable difference and I strongly urge you to upgrade as soon as possible! You'll never believe you managed to enjoy your Wife before there was Nag-Block, not to mention all the various extensions you can add to GnuWife V2.0 which allows you to unlock so many features...

--bornagainpenguin (who simply couldn't resist)

Oh really? What about all the users who simply decide they've had enough and 'upgrade' to a downloaded corporate copy of XP, turn off all WGA checking and use WinDiz Updates for all their update needs? Ironically Microsoft is in the situation of making their users pirate their software simply to get a usable desktop experience. Not to mention how news like TFA helps persuade users to migrate from their XP systems to either Linux or OSX...

--bornagainpenguin

personally i think they should add MORE things like this. Then linux really will have a boom.

seriously though, it's ridiculous. they force you to have an internet connection to activate it. thats completely out of control. i mean, what about corporations that have no need for internet but a need for computers, do they have to buy an internet connection to activate all those computers? or call microsoft? to use something they payed for? it would be quicker for most of those people to use a hacked version. or WAY quicker to use Linux, you don't have to pay or activate linux. AND you can install linux and ALL it's programs in the time it takes to install a typical windows installation.

Most linux distros effectively force you to have an Internet connection (and a fast one at that) to install and update software.

In this day and age, just about everything requires an Internet connection - apart from commercial games and a commercial apps which come on CD or DVD, you are lost at sea without a broadband Internet connection.

As far as I know, companies can also buy preactivated bulk Windows licenses for big rollouts, which do not require individual machines to be activated after installation, as they are already activated. They would need an Internet connection to install updates, unless the admin wants to waste a lot of time manually updating machines.

Windows Product Activation is pretty quick and painless, and is certainly no worse than doing an apt-get dist-upgrade or similar.

Installing Linux is only quicker if it comes with the apps you need - if it doesn't you will probably need to download them, because unlike Windows, there are very few boxed versions of software you can install from CD/DVD available for Linux.

Debian provides all the software in their repositories on CD/DVD.

Sure, but it is much easier to download them (you can't exactly walk into a computer store and buy a Debian DVD), and vast though Debian's repositories may be, they don't contain everything you might need. You can activate Windows over the phone as well, without needing an internet connection.

The point is, in this day and age, not having an internet connection is severely limiting, and it is not a strong argument against WGA or WPA.

True. But both me and Microsoft have Internet connections, and I really fail to see how a failure on mine/their part to connect should render MY computer USELESS!

"Debian provides all the software in their repositories on CD/DVD."

Can't very well use your install cd to update your computer 6 months after it was installed. To do that you need access to the latest updates, which means downloading either a cd, or the updates from a repository

you realize you can purchase a CD and don't have to download it, right?

If your computer is not connected to the internet, and your OS vendor is one which does not chnage a format on you so that your OS is periodically made obsolete deliberately, then why do you need to update?

Having said that, it is I admit possible that a commercial vendor changes a format in an attempt to force obsolesence onto its suckers^h^h^h^h end users, and your Linux system needs to interoperate with that new format.



... or you could of course simply order an update CD via the mail (for virtually the production cost plus mailing cost of the CD) ...

http://www.debianshop.com/cat.pl?page=debian_update
http://www.debian.org/CD/faq/#update-cd

Edited 2007-08-26 23:39

"If your computer is not connected to the internet, and your OS vendor is one which does not chnage a format on you so that your OS is periodically made obsolete deliberately, then why do you need to update? "

I agree, I was just responding to the parent who stated that you could update using your install CD. You can order a new one, but using the same install CD to do an update generally doesn't update anything.

If your Linux computer is not connected to the Internet, this is why you would purchase an update CD via the mail from time to time (if you were paranoid about having the latest in software).

http://www.debianshop.com/cat.pl?session_id=&page=info_update

I'm wondering, can you purcahse an "update cd" for less than $10 for your Windows system which is not connected to the Internet?

Apparently, you can:
http://www.logicaltips.com/LPMArticle.asp?ID=340

... so I can't see why anyone would expect a Linux distribution to be missing a similar ability.

The difference is that Linux distros only require an internet connection for updates, whereas Windows requires an internet connection to allow you to work.

If the servers for a linux distribution cease to exist, the distro will still work, it just won't be able to update. (Although even that is unlikely for a popular distribution, considering the amount of mirrors they have, at least one of them is likely to continue to work.)

If Micosoft's WGA/Activation servers cease to exist Windows stops working and the best you can hope for is somebody to crack it before you have to reinstall. (Although I doubt that many businesses will be happy running unsupported, cracked software.)

That is patently false. My Windows XP machine works fine whether it is connected to the internet or not - I can do my work without connecting to the net. In fact, I can do a fresh install of Windows, activate it over the phone, and install my software and work without ever connecting to the internet.



I don't know what you've been smoking, but that is total rubbish. My Windows machine was utterly unaffected by the WGA server shutdown, and MS will be supporting XP until at least 2012, so until you have some kind of evidence of what will happen when MS drop support for XP, you are spouting baseless speculation.

And after 2012, you either upgrade the XP machine, or re-install to declutter it, and lo the XP WGA servers are switched off, you can't activate, and in 30 days time your legit copy of Windows locks up.

The point is that you _are_ affected by WGA, even if you like it or not, and even if it has no effect yet, it will later on.

I'm still running a Windows 95 VM so I can play some old classic games. I've every right to do so, it's my copy of Windows 95 otherwise going unused.

Can you imagine wanting to play an old game on Windows XP that no longer works on Windows 7, or whatever's out by then? If you can't validate the XP VM, you're stuffed, and you will _have_ to pirate.

Stop defending WGA, it's entirely indefensible.

I'm not defending WGA, is is a load of bollocks, but it is not as bad as you and others are making out.

I would suspect that MS will release a patch that disables WPA when they discontinue support for it. 99% of users would have moved on to Vista or later by then, and I would suspect that Windows 7 would include some virtualisation features for running old apps anyway.

WGA has very little effect on me personally, since I:
1. Upgrade my software, hardware and OS regularly; and
2. Have a fast broadband connection.

I don't personally have any desire to use outdated software or play primitive games from the mid nineties, so I am perhaps a little biased, but I don't think I am alone in having that bias.

Most people will have upgraded to a new machine by the time XP expires, and with it acquire the latest version of Windows (non-Windows machines notwithstanding).

Now, if you have a Linux distro, and the maintainer packs up shop and shuts down the server with the repositories, you will at best need to find another distro if you want to upgrade anything without compiling it yourself, and if that distro had specific features that no other distro offers, too bad. Linux is much more dependent on having a fast internet connection than Windows is for updates and upgrades.

Linux and Windows are great operating systems, so can we please discuss them in a balanced way on their merits without resorting to silly arguments that don't follow from the evidence? WGA is an obnoxious nuisance at worst. It is not the apocalypse of computing that some people seem to think it is.

I don't think you give nostalgia it's dues. People will be wanting to play Halo, just as much as I want to play The Neverhood. WGA will prevent that.

"I would suspect that MS will release a patch that disables WPA when they discontinue support for it."
You were chiding the previous poster for speculating, and you then come up with this? Microsoft do not want businesses sticking to XP, they're having trouble enough getting them to switch to Vista; if they disable WGA at EOL, then there's no looming deadline to put a kick in the backside of companies that have not moved to Vista yet.

And if a Linux distro goes dodo, the source can always be picked up by someone else. If I was a linux user, and a particular distro went down, I could personally setup a new distro using the old code and start the whole thing up again.

If a Microsoft product goes down, you can't walk into MS, take the source code and go continue it elsewhere.

Activation / WGA is a ticking time bomb that may end up locking people out of vitally / historically important information, not to mention their own legal purchases.

Set up your computer with a separate partition for home directories. Maintain a text file with a simple list of you usernames. If the maintainer of your distro goes down (extremely unlikely if you are using OpenSuSe, Ubuntu, Fedora or Debian or many of several others) ... but if it does happen, just pick another distro and install it and have it use the same separate partition for home directories (but do NOT format the home partition).

After install, it might be necessary to do a recursive 'chown -R $user:$user /home/$user/*' foreach user in your text file, in order to set the new userids on all files ... but having done that, generally you can just carry on using the new distro.

I myself have switched between distros with all user data intact. It took about 30 minutes to install the new distro from a livecd, and that was more or less it. Everyone was able to carry on as if nothing had happened.



Name one such feature. There is your challenge. Open source, after all, is open source ... anyone may compile it and include it in a repository.



Nope.

Windows depends utterly on having a fast internet connection for updates and upgrades just to stay viable. If you don't update your Windows and your virus definitions you are bound to get pwned very quickly.

In contrast you can run a default install of a Linux distro connected to the internet for years (never once bothering to update) and still be as clean as the day you installed it.

Edited 2007-08-26 11:30

Linux is much more dependent on having a fast internet connection than Windows is for updates and upgrades.

And the network throughput is the same regardless of which mediaplayer u are using. Much less vista according to the following websites:

http://forums.2cpu.com/showpost.php?p=705316&postcount=67
http://core.tweakers.net/nieuws/49059/Muziekspeler-van-Vista-vertra...

And after 2012, you either upgrade the XP machine, or re-install to declutter it, and lo the XP WGA servers are switched off, you can't activate, and in 30 days time your legit copy of Windows locks up.

That depends on the machine and copy of XP.

If its plain jane OEM or upgrade/full retail then yes that could happen.

If its a Dell or HP copy of XP and its being re-installed on a Dell or HP then it will automatically activate without contacting MS.

That is blatantly untrue.

Linux systems which are not connected to the internet will work reliably as long as the hardware does.

There will not be any shutdown of a Linux system due to a "genuine advantage" server going down.

BTW, <sarcasm>I'm having trouble seeing exactly what the advantage is when it comes to Windows Genuine Advantage</sarcasm>. Has anyone else noticed Microsoft's tendency to name something for it's exact opposite? See also "Office Open XML".

Sure - so will Windows once activated (which as I have already stated, can be done without an internet connection provided you are willing to deal with MS call centers).

My XP machine did not magically shutdown just because the WGA server went down - my machine continued to function normally, as I'm sure most Windows user's did.

While I have no high regard for WGA (it is crap), I am sick of this silly FUD being promulgated on this thread about it.

So if this as all FUD why did many users find there way to forums to find out whats wrong?
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=17771211
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=17771169
http://forums.microsoft.com/Genuine/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=2055180&Si...
http://forums.microsoft.com/Genuine/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=2055538&Si...

Indeed your computer was not disrupted by this issue this time, many other users where disrupted.

Again I think no one is bashing the Windows XP and Vista operating systems , it Microsoft's policies that are getting in the way of otherwise good products.

I think if you are affected by the next hiccup of might see where people are coming from.

Don't worry, F/OSS users are not in the cold too!
http://www.linuxgenuineadvantage.org/

Hilarous!

And the link to the "Crack" site, priceless

Ha! This is a great parody! Make sure you download the "crack" too!!!

http://www.alienos.com/articles/2007/02/02/linux-genuine-advantage-...

They fixed it early; but then Microsoft's fastest ever patch times have been for DRM fixes (e.g. when PlaysForSure was cracked)

im blocking the images from the server