Linked by Thom Holwerda on Thu 30th Aug 2007 20:16 UTC, submitted by superstoned
KDE The article yesterday on KDE4 triggered both Sebastian Kuegler and Aaron Seigo to respond via their blogs. Kuegler writes: "The Free Desktop and KDE have come a long way during the last years. There have been various huge changes in KDE's social structure, in it's infrastructure and of course in the sourcecode itself. I've split this into three different areas where I think a shift in paradigm has taken place." Seigo writes: "Mark my words: KDE4 is a revolution unfolding and you're getting to watch it all happen from the very beginning."
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Marketing speak?
by sappyvcv on Thu 30th Aug 2007 20:48 UTC
sappyvcv
Member since:
2005-07-06

Seigo writes: "Mark my words: KDE4 is a revolution unfolding and you're getting to watch it all happen from the very beginning."

Coming from a person who has invested so much time into the project, either:
(a) You can take their word because they fully understand where things are and where they are going
(b) You can't take their word because they've invested so much time into it that they want to sell it as much as they can. Of course they'll say this and that about it.

I'm not sure which to believe. Aaron seems to have been awfully defensive in the past though.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Marketing speak?
by shiny on Thu 30th Aug 2007 20:54 UTC in reply to "Marketing speak?"
shiny Member since:
2005-08-09

I don't think they have an interest in "selling" you anything... Just wait and see, and judge for yourself. It's that simple.

Reply Score: 8

RE: Marketing speak?
by DevL on Thu 30th Aug 2007 21:48 UTC in reply to "Marketing speak?"
DevL Member since:
2005-07-06

Before KDE 4 surpasses, say Mac OS X, I would hardly call it an unfolding revolution. Incremental evolution, certainly.

So to answer you question: yes, marketing speech.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: Marketing speak?
by aseigo on Thu 30th Aug 2007 22:21 UTC in reply to "Marketing speak?"
aseigo Member since:
2005-07-06

> Before KDE 4 surpasses, say Mac OS X

i find this comment quite interesting. what does it -mean- exactly to "surpass Mac OS X"? i hear such cloaked comparisons but am not sure i actually understand what it means to people. i could make a guess, but i'm more interested in what you actually think.

> Incremental evolution, certainly.

ah, you see, you missed the point of my blog then. let me try fewer words:

revolution is what you think you've seen when you've missed out on all the evolutionary steps that have occurred previously. now, not all evolutionary trends result in revolutions, but all revolutions are, actually, evolutionary.

so the trick becomes this: if you can see the various evolutionary processes, can you tell the difference between the ones that will result in revolutionary ends and the ones that won't?

for most people the answer is "no", mostly due to a lack of deep understanding of what they are seeing. (i wouldn't be able to see most revolutions occurring either; my expertise, such as it is, is also limited to a finite number of domains)

this is why most entities try and do as much quietly and then reveal the end results only in an attempt to make the revolutionare aspects more easily apparent. often, it is also used as a way to try and make the completely mundane *appear* revolutionary simply through the apparent gaps in the storyline.

and to bring it all back on topic, what i'm attempting to convey (almost certainly in futility given the complexity of the concept) is that saying something isn't working towards a revolutionary end just because you can also see the evolutionary process of its creation during its creation (which pretty much sums up the "is kde4 revolutionary?" meme) is a false conclusion.

> yes, marketing speech.

more vague words. if all public speaking is marketing, in that it is intended to support the topical item, then .. ok ... that's pretty broad. if by "marketing speech" you mean "empty, vapid, without real meaning" then i'd like to inform you that, at least for me, that's not what it is.

i'm actually sharing my actual thought on actual matters. if it is convincing, bully. if it isn't, i'm still going to share. it's up to you to read or not, reply or not. but don't dismiss things out of hand.

i mean, how would you feel if i characterized your comment as being the naivety typical of users? it's probably unfair and inaccurate, even if it would be quite a tidy way to dismiss you from my perspective.

Reply Score: 19

RE[3]: Marketing speak?
by KugelKurt on Fri 31st Aug 2007 09:31 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Marketing speak?"
KugelKurt Member since:
2005-07-06

i find this comment quite interesting. what does it -mean- exactly to "surpass Mac OS X"? i hear such cloaked comparisons but am not sure i actually understand what it means to people. i could make a guess, but i'm more interested in what you actually think.


IMHO there are two areas about that comment:
Objective and subjective.

The objective area is the one where KDE actually lacks features.
The subjective area is the one where KDE has that features, but lacks marketing.


While not every aspect of OS X is great, the overall package is pretty awesome.
Compare Kopete to iChat for example. Yeah, Kopete supports more protocols, but that's about it. iChat is easy and fun. iChat sends h.264/AVC-encoded video chat streams over Jabber for ages and does crazy things with it. Both are open standards with free implementations. You can't tell me that for a somewhat skilled developer it's that hard to add.
http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/ichat/
http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/features/ichat.html

Another things that's missing is iLife. It's technically not a part of Mac OS X, but every Mac ships with it, so the general reception is that iLife is part of OS X. Maybe I missed something, but I can't remember seeing something like iMovie for KDE.
I hadn't the chance to try Freecycle yet, but it looks like a promising GarageBand alternative.

KDE is also missing some sort of creative suite. I know about Krita, Karbon, and Scribus. Marketing Krita and Karbon as a part of KOffice is a bit hard. And I'm not talking about developing a separate creative suite or splitting Krita and Karbon from KOffice source code. Just do separate marketing and include Scribus is that virtual package.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Marketing speak?
by superstoned on Fri 31st Aug 2007 09:54 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Marketing speak?"
superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

Sure Mac OS X has some nice stuff the FOSS world doesn't have (yet). On the other hand, the linux kernel is far more capable than what they have, and Amarok is much better than Itunes. We each have stuff the other doesn't have, though overall Mac might be better. It's not free software, though. And we expect to become much more innovative, starting with the 4.0 release. That was the target of KDE 4, you know, enable innovation. It's why we did focus so much on underlying technology. So 4.0 isn't that innovative in itself, but it will be - at least, that's what we hope and expect.

Reply Score: 4

RE[5]: Marketing speak?
by Richard Dale on Fri 31st Aug 2007 10:42 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Marketing speak?"
Richard Dale Member since:
2005-07-22

Sure Mac OS X has some nice stuff the FOSS world doesn't have (yet). On the other hand, the linux kernel is far more capable than what they have

Huh? Mac OS X is based on BSD 4.4 with a Mach 3.0 micro-kernel. It is certainly different to Linux, and maybe Unix system calls are slower to call because of the architecture. But 'far more capable' is stretching it a bit. KDE 4 will certainly run very well on Mac OS X with no loss of functionality, and it will use a technically superior window manager than X is on Linux.

You can program Cocoa applications in Objective-C with Interface Builder to construct the UI, and as far as I'm concerned that is still better than KDE application programming in C++. Writing KDE applications in Ruby or Python might be a different matter, but we need to push that and get more adoption with lots of python and ruby apps before we can really claim KDE 4 is as good a RAD environment.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Marketing speak?
by superstoned on Fri 31st Aug 2007 12:39 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Marketing speak?"
superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

KDE 4 APPS will run, not plasma, and not everything to the extend possible. KDE is Free Software, build to function best on Free Software, and we will keep it that way. Indeed, Mac OS X is superior in some area's, I just wanted to point out it isn't in all area's. The kernel is an example (scaling the Mach kernel for servers is horrible, and I know, I worked at a company who tried it) and there are more examples.

and yes, overall, Mac OS X might be better. But it is Non-free, so it sucks, no matter how you look at it as it is build to take away your freedom - and I'm serious about that. Besides, my point is mostly about the innovation we hope to make possible in the future, not how KDE 4.0 stacks against Leopard (I agree Leopard is better in most areas).

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: Marketing speak?
by KugelKurt on Fri 31st Aug 2007 11:56 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Marketing speak?"
KugelKurt Member since:
2005-07-06

Why are you shifting the discussion towards the kernel? KDE is a DE that runs on many OSes/kernels and which kernel is used below KDE doesn't matter. Aseigo asked a question and I gave a set of answers that I think are important and none of them have anything to do with kernels.
If your only remaining argument against my answers is "Amarok is better than iTunes" then you should know which ares are left to build a compelling ecosystem for casual users.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Marketing speak?
by superstoned on Fri 31st Aug 2007 12:36 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Marketing speak?"
superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

Hmmm. Didn't I use more than 2 lines of text?

Reply Score: 2

RE: Marketing speak?
by aseigo on Thu 30th Aug 2007 22:31 UTC in reply to "Marketing speak?"
aseigo Member since:
2005-07-06

> invested so much time into the project,

yes, i suppose it does require you to make a value judgement about my person. how fun to do that in public! =)

there is also another aspect to throw into the mix: perhaps the person got involved and so invested because of the things they are now speaking about. that doesn't help you in your answer, but it does add a bit more of the complexity that is really there imho.

> seems to have been awfully defensive

fortunately it's not my only dimension.

to not defend one's ideas, thoughts and actions has become part of the popular culture, which is to say that standing up it is often perceived as disruptive, unpopular and controversial. the term used most often, and often innaccurately, is "you're being defensive".

there is true defensiveness, where every action is simply a preventative one. look at my entire body of work and i think you'll see that isn't the case.

but to never stand up is to capitulate to the whims of others, and to never stand up on topics where you have feel conviction and have put your own efforts in is, imho, a character flaw.

the trick is to balance between being a push over sop and a reasonable individual who knows when to be quiet as well and, perhaps most importantly, always be able to listen (even when you yourself are sharing the speaking floor).

feel free to correct me on that one, though. =)

Reply Score: 11

RE[2]: Marketing speak?
by SReilly on Fri 31st Aug 2007 00:14 UTC in reply to "RE: Marketing speak?"
SReilly Member since:
2006-12-28

Very well put and thank you for pointing that out.

It's nice to know that some of us are more than willing to stick up for our ideals without feeling the need to wrap everything in cotton wool.

Plus, you do it with style and without malice. truly class! :-)

Reply Score: 3

RE: Marketing speak?
by postmodern on Fri 31st Aug 2007 00:51 UTC in reply to "Marketing speak?"
postmodern Member since:
2006-01-27

Or one could look at the source-code. Look at their overall design and what features KDE4 implements.

That would seem to be more informative than reading into developer's blog posts.

Reply Score: 2

porcel
Member since:
2006-01-28

Aaron makes a great point.

Lots of people would not eat in some restaurants if they walked into the kitchen. The final dish as presented and the kitchen state are aesthetically so different that many would have a hard time believing that the former came from the latter.

But opensource means transparency. The kitchen doors are always open, which means that you don't just see the shiny product announcement and in most cases there is no black turtle-neck keynote to go with it.

You see both the slicing of the chicken, the blood on the floor, and the final delicious dish. The question is do you have the stomach for it?

If you don't, stick to distribution releases, preferably ones that are known for being ultra stable and update every three or five years. Your world will regain its balance.

Some of us like to get our hands dirty, to be part of the process, to cook and share recipes, mess and all.

KDE4 is going to rock. Wait 12 to 18 months if you want perfection

Edited 2007-08-30 20:56

Reply Score: 14

aseigo Member since:
2005-07-06

> Well, so it makes what, 36 to 42 months (3 years to
> 3 years and one half) since the last innovative KDE
> release (3.5.0)?
>
> Nice! I REALLY love GNOME incremental releases.

oh my. i think you really misunderstood something.

the person you replied to was saying that in their opinion it will take 1-2 more releases (and 6-9 * 2 is 12-18) for "perfection".

iow, incremental releases building on the foundation we've worked out for kde4. so if you love gnome incremental releases, you'll love this mechanism just as much. perhaps more.

Reply Score: 9

asdx24 Member since:
2007-05-17

i like the gnome development model and the linux kernel development model, i agree that adding bits by bits and making incremental releases of that is a great idea, things tends to progress faster that way and everyone can benefits with the new features, the thing is that in all this time they were building the foundations that will make kde4 rock, their technology is superior and i think that's what it matters, gnome in the other way feels a bit outdated to me, i know they are adding a lot of features in each incremental releases and making it better, but im excited with plasma and the other things that kde4 will give us, im excited with all this new technology and what is capable of doing and i know it will do amazing things for our desktops, and that's what it really matters to me.

Edited 2007-08-30 22:49

Reply Score: 2

superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

I think we should all vote this person up. Just for making a full-length post in just one sentence. Impressive.

And you thought Aseigo makes hard-to-read posts?

Reply Score: 1

porcel Member since:
2006-01-28

I am sure not aiming for a Pulitzer with a post on OSNews.These are quick impromptu thoughts that I jot down on a blog.

Nonetheless, would ask you to reread what I wrote. The post is broken into different sentences and paragraphs.

Reply Score: 2

superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

hey, why did you do that? I did already read it (and it made sense) but just thought it was lovely to see such a garble for once ;-)

The content actually was pretty good, nothing wrong with that ;)

Reply Score: 3

sbergman27
Member since:
2005-07-24

I guess the subject captures the essence.

Let's just wait and see what happens.

Reply Score: 6

OSNews pushes KDE
by emilsedgh on Thu 30th Aug 2007 21:07 UTC
emilsedgh
Member since:
2007-06-21

I love the OSNews's discussions and threads on KDE.I think a community needs such 'Buzz' every few months and OSNews is doing it for KDE ;)

Reply Score: 2

RE: OSNews pushes KDE
by Thom_Holwerda on Thu 30th Aug 2007 21:12 UTC in reply to "OSNews pushes KDE"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

I love the OSNews's discussions and threads on KDE.I think a community needs such 'Buzz' every few months and OSNews is doing it for KDE.

We're not pushing anything. We are just trying to give our readers the complete picture - that means both sides of the story. If that cannot be done in one single item, we'll have to post multiple items on it.

Can't help it, really.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: OSNews pushes KDE
by sbergman27 on Thu 30th Aug 2007 21:38 UTC in reply to "RE: OSNews pushes KDE"
sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

"""
We're not pushing anything. We are just trying to give our readers the complete picture
"""

Yeah... right.

I'm not saying that you are pro or con KDE, Gnome, or any which desktop.

But, for whatever reason, you're more than willing to fan the desktop flames in any which *direction*.

That much is pretty obvious to any observer. Casual or otherwise.

Edited 2007-08-30 21:39

Reply Score: 7

RE[3]: OSNews pushes KDE
by Thom_Holwerda on Thu 30th Aug 2007 21:55 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: OSNews pushes KDE"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Oh get over yourself. I know you don't like me, that's fine, but please don't grasp every opportunity to make that known. Please remember that you are still on our turf.

Anyway, if you really believe that we post stories on KDE/GNOME just to gain more hits, that's fine by me. Anyone with a sane mind knows that's not the case (what do we get in return for hits? Nothing), because if it was, we'd be posting a whole lot more KDE/GNOME stories.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: OSNews pushes KDE
by sbergman27 on Thu 30th Aug 2007 22:07 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: OSNews pushes KDE"
sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

"""

Oh get over yourself. I know you don't like me, that's fine, but please don't grasp every opportunity to make that known

"""

I didn't say whether I liked you or not. I didn't think that it was relevant to this thread.

"""
Please remember that you are still on our turf.

"""

Well, I guess that makes it relevant. The thing is... that's why I do happen to have reservations about you. The whole "this is my turf" thing that you so often do.

Anyway, I doubt it's about getting more hits. You are likely confusing me with another of your detractors. ;-)

You do what you can to fan the flames... for whatever reason. That much seems pretty obvious.

I don't pretend to know exactly what those reasons might be.

I just know what I see.

Look to Eugenia for an example of how to be opinionated, and still respected. She does a great job of it.

Edited 2007-08-30 22:20

Reply Score: 6

you don't get anything in return for hits?
by JoeBuck on Thu 30th Aug 2007 22:23 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: OSNews pushes KDE"
JoeBuck Member since:
2006-01-11

There are ads on your site. Don't more hits mean more revenue?

Maybe the individual authors don't benefit, but the site bandwidth has to be paid for somehow.

Reply Score: 4

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

We don't get anything, no. Money goes directly to hosting, and since we run on two dedicated servers, you can understand that doesn't come cheap.

Reply Score: 1

sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

"""
We don't get anything, no. Money goes directly to hosting, and since we run on two dedicated servers, you can understand that doesn't come cheap.
"""

This topic comes up often. And I understand your frustration on that point. Perhaps it would help if OSNews published some accounting information periodically, just to set the record straight? Or do you already do so and I just missed it?

Just a thought...

Edited 2007-08-30 22:47

Reply Score: 3

sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

I was really hoping for an answer to this. Since you have nothing to lose by posting a bit of accounting info, just so that your members can know, for sure, that you are on the level.

I honestly think it would help alleviate all these suspicions that you are doing something with the money that you don't want people to know about.

Reply Score: 2

marafaka Member since:
2006-01-03

So who exactly told you that ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: OSNews pushes KDE
by superstoned on Fri 31st Aug 2007 09:58 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: OSNews pushes KDE"
superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

I fully support you in this, Thom. Of course, it was my submission you wonderfully rewrote, so I probably should shut up, but still. I think it's great you always allow all sides of a story (eg check the 'competition is good/bad' discussion, how low it's value in scientific/economic terms may be).

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: OSNews pushes KDE
by sigzero on Thu 30th Aug 2007 22:09 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: OSNews pushes KDE"
sigzero Member since:
2006-01-03

It isn't obvious to me but it is obvious you have something against the guy that you should take offline to resolve.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: OSNews pushes KDE
by sbergman27 on Thu 30th Aug 2007 22:15 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: OSNews pushes KDE"
sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

"""

but it is obvious you have something against the guy that you should take offline...

"""

sigzero,

Don't worry. No long and annoying flame war is brewing. Either on *or* off line. ;-)

-Steve

Edited 2007-08-30 22:17

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: OSNews pushes KDE
by emilsedgh on Thu 30th Aug 2007 21:55 UTC in reply to "RE: OSNews pushes KDE"
emilsedgh Member since:
2007-06-21

Im sure youre just trying to keep us updated, keep up the good work.

Reply Score: 3

Duh
by diegocg on Thu 30th Aug 2007 21:07 UTC
diegocg
Member since:
2005-07-08

Firs of all, is KDE 4 targetted to be a "revolution"? (despite of what Aseigo says)

IMO KDE 4 has promised to create a great desktop, without doubt the best on the open source land...but I don't think it will be that "revolutionary" when compared with f.e. OS X, which is what some people seems to be expecting....I mean, let's be realistic, until now Linux desktop has only been "catching up", being more or less on-par of windows and apple would be already a "revolution" for the FOSS world. I don't think KDE 4 is going to be better than, say, OS X, but being almost as good is going to be revolutionary for me.


And from what I've seen these last months, the KDE 4 guys are providing the "revolutionary" (for them) desktop that they promised. I can't even imagine why people talks about "hype" - all what I heard about KDE 4 is quickly materializing in the screenshots I see through the web. Is there something that they promised and that is not being released in KDE 4 (be it KDE 4.0, 4.1 or 4.2)?

I may even be wrong and, as Aseigo writes, KDE could become really revolutionary and 4.0 would be just the start...... Remember! When Mac OS 10.0.0 was released, it was a slow, limited OS, and look how it has evolved...

Edited 2007-08-30 21:12

Reply Score: 6

RE: Duh
by sappyvcv on Thu 30th Aug 2007 21:53 UTC in reply to "Duh"
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

And from what I've seen these last months, the KDE 4 guys are providing the "revolutionary" (for them) desktop that they promised. I can't even imagine why people talks about "hype" - all what I heard about KDE 4 is quickly materializing in the screenshots I see through the web. Is there something that they promised and that is not being released in KDE 4 (be it KDE 4.0, 4.1 or 4.2)?

What's revolutionary exactly?

Also, hype is not about what's promised and what's delivered (or not). Hype is about making something out to be something greater than it is.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Duh
by superstoned on Fri 31st Aug 2007 10:02 UTC in reply to "RE: Duh"
superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

With 4.0, we might not really target to show you the final result of a revolution. But we want to enable a real jump in innovation, allow the Free Desktop to really start progressing beyond merely duplicating the non-free world. For this, we build a powerful set of libraries, which ARE beyond what anyone on the Free Desktop has done. Technologies like Plasma are unique in their own way, and the combination with Solid, Decibel, Akonadi, Phonon, Khalkhi, GHNS2 and all the other things might surely be called a revolution. Though that's just a word, indeed. Which Aaron was saying in his blog.

We expect to see much new, great, cool, innovative things written on this framework to appear over the course of the next year or two. In hindsight, one might call that a revolution, in the sense of a turning point.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Duh
by sappyvcv on Fri 31st Aug 2007 10:17 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Duh"
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

All you said was fluff with no substance. How are those things revolutionary?

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Duh
by superstoned on Fri 31st Aug 2007 12:45 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Duh"
superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

You tell me. What is a revolution in your opinion. We can't talk without a definition. There is no way I could ever convince you that KDE 4 is a revolution, no matter how it is, it seems. So tell me the rules, and I might play.

Seriously, it's a word. and like all words, esp a word like this one, it's too debatable to be useful in this whole discussion. just READ what I said, as I've said this already twice (this is the third time, yes).

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Duh
by sappyvcv on Fri 31st Aug 2007 20:23 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Duh"
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

Nice cop out.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: Duh
by segedunum on Fri 31st Aug 2007 21:01 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Duh"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Nice cop out.

No, seriously. What would you consider to be a revolution, and in what terms would you define it?

KDE 4 will certainly be a revolution in terms of the free desktop, and those in the Unix and Linux worlds, because there's just lots of things that applications will be able to do at a desktop level that they never have before - accurate information and manipulation of hardware, applets, applications and scripts easily installed within the desktop and easily developed, graphical effects on the desktop that actually work reliably, sane multimedia output that doesn't need to throttle back your network ;-) etc. etc. In the long run, with a sane architecture underneath it, it will simply do these things better.

So what would you define revolutionary, because I don't hear Vista or even OS X being described in those terms?

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Duh
by sappyvcv on Fri 31st Aug 2007 21:04 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Duh"
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

KDE 4 will certainly be a revolution in terms of the free desktop,

Oh, you're defining it that way. The same tactic Microsoft likes to use. Smooth. In that context, fine. Carry on.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Duh
by Redeeman on Thu 30th Aug 2007 23:09 UTC in reply to "Duh"
Redeeman Member since:
2006-03-23

since kde 3, kde has been ahead of winblows, and since 3.4, ahead of OSX.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Duh
by sbergman27 on Thu 30th Aug 2007 23:14 UTC in reply to "RE: Duh"
sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

"""

since kde 3, kde has been ahead of winblows, and since 3.4, ahead of OSX.

"""

And if being ahead technically mattered, that would be fantastic.

But since mindshare is what counts, in a practical sense, we're still sunk. Or struggling, at least.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Duh
by KugelKurt on Fri 31st Aug 2007 15:42 UTC in reply to "RE: Duh"
KugelKurt Member since:
2005-07-06

KDE 3.4 had more advanced stuff than Core Audio, Core Image/Video, iChat's AV capabilities, Spotlight, and so on?
Riiiiiiiiight.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Duh
by deb2006 on Fri 31st Aug 2007 08:13 UTC in reply to "Duh"
deb2006 Member since:
2006-06-26

I don't see the Mac OS X desktop as a revolution: it's a bloated piece of, well, software; it is slow as hell; its "design" remains doubtful to me.

I regard the BeOS desktop as a very positive example: very elegant, fun to work with, very fast, small footprint. It was and still is ideal.

Reply Score: 3

v ???
by Manuma on Thu 30th Aug 2007 21:08 UTC
KDE 4 previews
by rhyder on Thu 30th Aug 2007 21:26 UTC
rhyder
Member since:
2005-09-28

The cause of confusion has been that KDE4 doesn't /look/ all that impressive in a screenshot as most of the work has been done in the underlying framework.

Reply Score: 3

RE: KDE 4 previews
by emilsedgh on Thu 30th Aug 2007 22:30 UTC in reply to "KDE 4 previews"
emilsedgh Member since:
2007-06-21

and one more thing: the stuff are not merged together in most screenshots...every single feature of KDE 4.x is not what makes it so powerfull, they all togheter are making KDE 4.x a unique Desktop.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: KDE 4 previews
by superstoned on Fri 31st Aug 2007 10:53 UTC in reply to "RE: KDE 4 previews"
superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

And that's what we are aiming for. Integrating all these technologies to enable innovation and creativity. Make it easy, and they do it - isn't that one of the most important reasons why things work? Wiki, to name one?

Reply Score: 3

to be accurate =)
by aseigo on Thu 30th Aug 2007 22:09 UTC
aseigo
Member since:
2005-07-06

actually, i posted my blog in response to the article on computerworld.com.au; i didn't find it on osnews.com until later =)

there's a slow revolving conversation happening around kde 4.0 and what it will be. it consists of media trying to summarize, enthusiasts going in various directions and developers responding to these various directions.

i try to wait my turn to speak, which is why i usually don't post more than one or two items on the topic before letting another cycle occur.

not that the above is either interesting or matters ;)

Reply Score: 8

Linux is an evolving revolution
by dada1958 on Thu 30th Aug 2007 22:41 UTC
dada1958
Member since:
2007-08-30

I use Ubuntu as my main OS for one year now, I discovered it one other year earlier when I was getting tired of Apple after another twelve years. Never got involved with MS products for obscure reasons, they just didn't inspire me.
I had great expectations of Mac OS X and I liked it when I started to use it in April 2002. I had a wonderful time discovering the world of POSIX, spent little fortunes to upgrade my favorite apps though ...
Ubuntu Linux, with Gnome as DE was a revelation, very Mac OS X like. I tried KDE several times; this DE has its charms as well, Amarok, Digikam, K3B and Kile are genuine killer apps, aren't they?
So I'll continue to play with KDE, in spite of the fact that Gnome is still my default DE, I'm looking forward to KDE 4 because it's a wonderful thing to have choices.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Linux is an evolving revolution
by aseigo on Fri 31st Aug 2007 08:11 UTC in reply to "Linux is an evolving revolution"
aseigo Member since:
2005-07-06

it's not what desktop to you log into alone, but the applications you use as well.

so for all those gnome desktop users who use a kde app or 2 (or 3 or 4 or..) and all those kde desktop users who use a gnome app or 2 (or ..) .. this is indeed the spice of life.

somewhere along the way people got confused that the issue was "which desktop you log into" (which has made standardization harder; the reasons for this lie in basic game theory =) when the real issue is "what apps you use" where the desktop is a collection of a few apps (panel, desktop, window manager, etc..)

Reply Score: 3

for goodness sake...
by pixel8r on Fri 31st Aug 2007 03:45 UTC
pixel8r
Member since:
2007-08-11

To all the naysayers out there, anti-kde people and skeptics...

How about leaving the KDE team and devs alone to work on their project, which is what they do best. If you dont like KDE, thats fine, just dont use it. It doesn't have to go any further than that.

Coming on here and criticizing KDE, the devs, the team, the apps, unless its constructive criticism designed to help the team, is really just a waste of your time and everyone else's.

Do you not want KDE to be better than gnome (does it even matter if it is/isn't)? are you afraid that if you let them keep going that it might be better than your favourite DE? If not, then what are you worried about? If you're not interested in KDE, why are you reading this thread...?

Let us KDE users use and get excited about our favourite DE and its next big release without constantly trying to dampen the enthusiasm.

/rant over.

I'd just like to say thank you to the KDE team for the work done thus far. Keep it up and I'm very much looking forward to KDE4.
I also like to see improvements in GNOME as well - competition between DE's is great for each DE and great for opensource desktops in general. ;)

Reply Score: 2

Revolution or Hype
by Shade on Fri 31st Aug 2007 06:42 UTC
Shade
Member since:
2005-07-07

The 'revolution' or 'hype' binary choice represents a false choice. KDE 4.0.0 will probably seem like a slightly buggier (and glossier) 3.5.x with some different underlying technologies. But the key point there is those 'different underlying technologies'. That is the fertile soil for a potential desktop revolution.

KDE users will see better adoption of fd.o stuff, some new icons, wallpapers, and themes, a bunch of new art, and the first appearance of some new (and novel from a linux user's POV) KDE centric technologies. The potential for a revolution will rise or fall on successful adoption and integration of these technologies within the greater KDE ecosystem. This means the integration of these things between the programs in KDE's SVN (as opposed to a basic minimal port to these new technologies) and the multitude of other KDE applications (K3B, Amorok, Koffice, etc.).

Realistically, the jury on KDE 4 will be out until people can take a frank look at the whole KDE ecosystem around KDE 4.1 or so. For some historical context people should look not at the transition to KDE 2 to KDE 3, which was pretty much a straight port with some new features, but at the transition from KDE 1 to KDE 2. Every major feature you see in KDE 3 today was birthed with KDE 2. Yes KDE 2. And that transition was hard... Much like the GNOME 1.4 to 2.0 transition.

I suspect the KDE 3 to 4 transition will go smoother than the KDE 1 to 2 or the gnome 1.4 to 2 one because of the KDE community cumulative experience, and because of the planning that has gone into this. (It wasn't like that 'back in the day'.) So if a great many people are cooking with Plasma around 4.1, and you see good adoption of the other new KDE technologies in the broader KDE ecosystem around 4.1, then KDE would really pick up a bunch of momentum... If they fail... Well... They wouldn't go away, but the blow the the projects stature would be bad. ;)

But as I said, the jury will be out until users can do a frank 'state of the KDE ecosystem' around KDE 4.1 or so. That's when we'll really get a solid idea how well the transition to these new technologies is going, or weather or not there is a revolution in the offing. I suspect we'll get something short of a revolution, and something like a burst on new momentum and steam around the KDE ecosystem. But what do I know?

Reply Score: 2

Mac OS X has a very inferior WM
by LinuxDesktopUser on Fri 31st Aug 2007 14:11 UTC
LinuxDesktopUser
Member since:
2005-11-11

In fact, it has the worst window management shipped with any UNIX save perhaps for those embedded ones (I mean, no maximisation, what kind of a joke is that)...

The window management by kwin is much more clever powerful and featureful than that of aqua. exposť is a symptom of that: something had to be done about aqua window management.

So actually, as far as managing windows goes, KDE is already beyond (well beyond) OS X. And KDE4 will simply increase this advance, by adding some eyecandy where it actually helps usability-wise.

Reply Score: 3

HYPE
by Mystilleef on Fri 31st Aug 2007 15:50 UTC
Mystilleef
Member since:
2005-06-29

It's all hype. At least, until I install it and go, "WOW!" Now they're telling me to wait another 12-14 months to witness the revolution. Okay, I'll wait, but stop hyping, will ya.

Reply Score: 0

RE: HYPE
by segedunum on Fri 31st Aug 2007 21:06 UTC in reply to "HYPE"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

It's all hype. At least, until I install it and go, "WOW!" Now they're telling me to wait another 12-14 months to witness the revolution.

Which they've never kept from you. KDE 4 is a journey, not a destination. The destination will ultimately be .3, .4 or .5. How many crappy Vista previews do you think we've all had to sit through since 2003 telling us how great it was going to be?

Reply Score: 2