Linked by Thom Holwerda on Sat 8th Sep 2007 20:18 UTC, submitted by koki
BeOS & Derivatives "As the development of Haiku keeps making noticeable strides, there seems to be no plan to include a direct replacement for the integrated development environment BeIDE that was bundled with BeOS. I have read here and there from a couple of BeOS developers about their intentions to develop such an IDE for Haiku, but nothing has trickled down so far in terms of code or binaries. Well, that's not the case anymore."
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KugelKurt
Member since:
2005-07-06

The Haiku project chose the MIT license, because the GPL is too restrictive for them. NonCommercial-NoDerivs is probably not tollerable. If that Shinta guy does not loose the license for GenesTation (GPL at Ąworstď, MIT at best), I donít think that this can be the ĄIDE for Haikuís Futureď.

Reply Score: 4

JonathanBThompson Member since:
2006-05-26

No matter which license something has been placed under, someone will always complain, even if under no terms whatsoever being claimed by the original author.

Nothing to see/read here, move along ;)

If they want to develop an IDE, encourage them!

More choice is better, as not everyone thinks/works the same way.

(Yes, I need to spend more time myself on that topic)

Reply Score: 3

wannabe geek Member since:
2006-09-27

"...even if under no terms whatsoever being claimed by the original author. "

Contrary to what it seems, this would be pretty close to a worst-case scenario ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berne_Convention_for_the_Protection_of...

BTW, Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs is definitely a non-opensource license (by the OSI definition)

Reply Score: 4

mikesum32 Member since:
2005-10-22

I think JT was referring to public domain, or the slightly more encumbered BSD or MIT license.

Reply Score: 1

KugelKurt Member since:
2005-07-06

The headline and the summary sounds like Genestation is a BeIDE-replacement written for the Haiku project.
The Haiku project is about replacing closed source Be code with open source code.

Genestation is nothing of that. Genestation is not targetted at Haiku, itís targetted at Zeta and Genestation is not open source. So with this premises: how can Genestation become the ĄIDE for Haikuís futureď?

If Thom hadnít posted that misleading summary and just wrote something like ĄGenestation is an IDE for the illegal Zeta OS. Genestation is closed source and for non-commercial use only. A port of Genestation to Haiku is considered for the future.ď and no confusion about Genestation would arise.

Edited 2007-09-09 11:15

Reply Score: 3

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

If Thom hadn't posted that misleading summary and just wrote something like ÔŅĹGenestation is an IDE for the illegal Zeta OS. Genestation is closed source and for non-commercial use only. A port of Genestation to Haiku is considered for the future." and no confusion about Genestation would arise.

1) I didn't write the summary.
2) Zeta is not illegal.

Reply Score: 0

Diver Member since:
2005-07-08

>2) Zeta is not illegal.

Please explain.

Reply Score: 1

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

>2) Zeta is not illegal.

Please explain.


There hasn't been any official court case or any judge declaring Zeta illegal. It's one company's words against that of another. And in my country, one is innocent until proven otherwise.

If Zeta is illegal just because Access says so, then I guess Linux infringes on Microsoft patents. You know, Microsoft says so.

Of course, Zeta is shady - but not illegal.

Reply Score: 0

KugelKurt Member since:
2005-07-06

There hasn't been any official court case or any judge declaring Zeta illegal. It's one company's words against that of another. And in my country, one is innocent until proven otherwise.


Zeta is illegal. Even before Access said that, it was obvious. yellowTab just had a distribution agreement for BeOS 5:
Ē[YellowTabís BeOS] version will not be based on BeOS 6. (...) we also have a permission from Be since May 2001 to resell a special PE Version. We have a deal with a distributor to resell x thousands of 5.0.3Pro with our distribution.ď
> http://www.osnews.com/story.php/511/YellowTAB-to-Release-Updated-Be...

Later yellowTab said that the license for using the source code is a leftover from an old deal with Be, not a new deal with Palm.
So yellowTab itself said two things:
1. Distribution deal with Be for BeOS 5.
2. No deal with Palm or Access.

Early versions of Zeta shipped with an old Dan0 kernel. Eugeniaís husband confirmed that on OSNews. yellowTab never had a license to use Dan0. Frank Paul Silye from yellowTab said that in the interview above.

Access are not anti-BeOS. If they were, they wouldnít have donated BeOS documetation to Haiku.

Reply Score: 0

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

All you can come up with to 'prove' that Zeta is 'illegal', is a 7 year old OSNews story?

Look, I don't know about the country you live in, but in The Netherlands, it is te judge who gets to decide whether something is against the law or not - not OSNews commenters, not me, not anyone else.

Not even Access is actually saying Zeta is 'illegal' - Access just said that they are unaware of any license that allowed yT to ship the Dan0 codebase. And as is normal in any modern justice system, someone is NOT GUILTY until proven otherwise. And, despite many attempts, I have still not seen ANYTHING that would make Zeta illegal - in fact, not even Access itself has the proof, so what makes you think you do?

Is Zeta in legal limbo? Definitely - I didn't sell all my copies of Zeta for nothing. Is Zeta illegal? No, not until a court of law says it is.

Reply Score: 0

KugelKurt Member since:
2005-07-06

1) I didn't write the summary.


I wrote that you posted that summary and you did. You should check submissions before you post them.

Reply Score: 1

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

I wrote that you posted that summary and you did. You should check submissions before you post them.

Exactly, because there is nothing wrong with the submission koki wrote. First of all, I know koki a bit better than you do. Second, koki is a well known figure in the Haiku world, and he has done a lot of good for the project, and knows the project better than most of us here - including you - do. So when he writes a summary about a Haiku article, I can be reasonably sure about its accuracy.

Lastly, saying "Zeta is illegal" just goes to show how little you actually know on this matter - see my previous post for more on this one.

Reply Score: 0

KugelKurt Member since:
2005-07-06

Stop putting words im my mouth!
I didnít wrote that the summary is wrong. I wrote that itís misleading and it is. It gives the impression that itís about a Haiku app, but itís about a Zeta app that may become Haiku compatible in the future.

I also read Haiku mailing lists. Koki is the guy who at one point asked ĒCan I use the trademarked Haiku artwork?ď, Haiku Inc.ís answer was No, and Koki replied ĄHow can you say no? I asked and when I ask you have to say yes.ď (paraphrased).
Later Haiku Inc. modified the trademark guidelines and it became OK to use the trademark more loosely.
I donít want to bash Koki. He is very ambitious and thatís cool. But Genestation is not even close to being ported to Haiku and making this a Haiku article and not a Zeta article is misleading.

Reply Score: 2

koki Member since:
2005-10-17

> Koki is the guy who at one point asked ĒCan I use
> the trademarked Haiku artwork?ď, Haiku Inc.ís
> answer was No, and Koki replied ĄHow can you say
> no? I asked and when I ask you have to say yes.ď
> (paraphrased)

Are you paraphrasing or oversimplifying? ;)

I suppose you are referring to the recent request to distribute promotional material using the Haiku marks at the FalterCon event. To set the record straight, Haiku did give permission to use the marks on a printed flyer, but did not want us to distribute CDs. What I told Haiku in that instance was that their response specifically relative to the CDs contradicted their own guidelines (published on the Haiku website). In case you want to get the facts straight, this is summarized here:

http://www.freelists.org/archives/openbeos/08-2007/msg00080.html

I make a conscious effort to respect other people's property, including Haiku's. As living proof of that, I have been creating some promotional material for Haiku using their marks with their express permission (I send it to the admins for review/approval before release).

http://myhaiku.org/haiku-related-artwork/

> But Genestation is not even close to being ported
> to Haiku and making this a Haiku article and
> not a Zeta article is misleading.

I intentionally wrote about GenesTation in the context of Haiku, because that's what interests me and because ZETA has no viable future (IMHO, of course). In the general topic of IDEs for Haiku, GenesTation is the only IDE that does exist today and whose author has committed to making it work for Haiku in the future. The title and summary simply reflect that.

Reply Score: 1

dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

*LOL*

Ahh, now we see the violence inherit in the system ;)

Reply Score: 2

Nutela Member since:
2006-02-09

"(Yes, I need to spend more time myself on that topic)"

Oh really ;) you said that now *how* many times?

;-D

Reply Score: 1

koki Member since:
2005-10-17

It's not "the" IDE for Haiku, but "an" IDE for Haiku. Subtle but significant difference. ;)

Hopefully there will be more than one IDE for Haiku in the future, and users will then be able to choose the one they prefer or like better.

Reply Score: 4

KugelKurt Member since:
2005-07-06

Itís not even Ēanď IDE for Haikuís future, because itís targetted at Zeta and a Haiku port is just planed and not definitive.

Reply Score: 1

slight Member since:
2006-09-10

Haiku 1.0 is just planned, so what's your point? You seem to have a real axe to grind against GenesTation, mabe you should tell us why? OK it's closed source, but so is lots of code that people use to make OSS software. It may not be appropriate to be the main IDE for Haiku, because it can't be bundled, but that doesn't stop it being useful to people who want to use it.

Reply Score: 2

KugelKurt Member since:
2005-07-06

Iím just against calling it a Haiku app. Itís not. Itís a Zeta app.

Reply Score: 1

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

I'm just against calling it a Haiku app. It's not. It's a Zeta app.

Where in the summary does it say it's a Haiku application? And even if it does - it would not be a wrong qualification, seeing many Zeta programs run fine on Haiku.

Reply Score: 0

KugelKurt Member since:
2005-07-06

Genestation does not run under Haiku, because Genestation uses Zeta-specific libs. Read the interview. Itís written there. (ďAt the moment I use ZETA, so for now GenesTation will stay ZETA only.Ē)

Headline and summary mention Haiku three times + thereís the Haiku logo on the left. Zeta is mentioned nowhere in the summary and this story is not in the Zeta section.

I donít know if your English is bad or if you just refuse to understand me. This has to be the third (itís certainly the last) time I try to explain this to you:
This summary is not really wrong, but misleading. Do you know the difference between these two words? The latter means that you donít have to lie, but still make people believe otherwise.

Yes, a Haiku port is planed. But itís just that. A plan. You canít take Genestation and run it under Haiku. Genestation is for Zeta and will be Zeta-only for quite some time.

Reply Score: 1

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Headline and summary mention Haiku three times + there's the Haiku logo on the left. Zeta is mentioned nowhere in the summary and this story is not in the Zeta section.

This is a story ABOUT HAIKU. Koki, prominent member of the HAIKU COMMUNITY, interviewed the developer of a Zeta IDE about the possibility of a HAIKU PORT. How this story does not fit into the Haiku/BeOS category is BEYOND ME.

On top of that, the interview talks about a lot of BeOS (non-Haiku, non-Zeta) things too, placing this story even more firmly into the Haiku/*BEOS* category.

Seriously, the fact that you hate Zeta is none of my concern. This story is about Haiku and BeOS in general, and hence it goes into the corresponding Haiku/BeOS category. Period.

We will now return on topic - any off topic comments will be removed.

Edited 2007-09-09 16:01 UTC

Reply Score: 0

Now for a little controversy...
by darkwyrm on Sat 8th Sep 2007 23:12 UTC
darkwyrm
Member since:
2006-03-15

If SHINTA wants to make it GPL, let him. Be happy that Haiku will have an actively-developed open source IDE. If he makes it GPL, it's not a big deal. It just won't make it into the source tree. An IDE is a good 3rd party opportunity, so Haiku has nothing but to gain from this.

Reply Score: 8

KugelKurt Member since:
2005-07-06

Be happy that Haiku will have an actively-developed open source IDE.


GenesTation isnít open source (either that or Shinta has hidden the source where I canít find).

Reply Score: 5

dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Well, there is GPL'ed files in the Haiku sources, at least according to mphipps, and according to him any file under a non-commercial license can never become a part of Haiku.

So yes, this is a great third party tool for students, but open source it is not.

Again, there are so many open source IDE's so if this is important, it's reasonably easy to port one to Haiku. Personally I don't consider it important. It can wait 'till after Haiku goes Beta ;)

Reply Score: 4

RE: Now for a little controversy...
by koki on Sun 9th Sep 2007 05:06 UTC in reply to "Now for a little controversy..."
koki Member since:
2005-10-17

> Be happy that Haiku will have an actively-developed
> open source IDE.

GenesTation is not open source. However, it is free (as in beer). ;)

This is a third party initiative and it's not intended to become part of the Haiku code base; so license compatibility is not an issue.

Regardless of the license, this can bring more options to Haiku in the future, so it is a positive development.

Reply Score: 3

Licensing issues...
by rx182 on Sun 9th Sep 2007 01:09 UTC
rx182
Member since:
2005-07-08

Damn! It's such a long name for a license ;-) Anyway, things are getting over-complicated. Back in the '80/'90, things were done the right way:

- Want to make money? Pricetag
- Want people to use it but want to make money too? Shareware
- Want people to use it? Freeware
- Want people to continue your work? Public domain

Sure, the GPL started something really interesting and I truly believe it's a good thing. But too many licenses appeared after that...

Reply Score: 2

Good UI
by samad on Sun 9th Sep 2007 01:42 UTC
samad
Member since:
2006-03-31

The UI for the IDE is great. Reminds me of the good, ol' days of CodeWarrior in contrast to the present ugliness of XCode.

Reply Score: 2

Closed source...
by BSDfan on Sun 9th Sep 2007 02:02 UTC
BSDfan
Member since:
2007-03-14

Sounds like it should stay tied to that illegal mess called "Zeta".

IDE's are lame anyway, If you can't use vi - You shouldn't be programming.. ;-)

Edited 2007-09-09 02:03

Reply Score: 3

RE: Closed source...
by jayson.knight on Sun 9th Sep 2007 03:27 UTC in reply to "Closed source..."
jayson.knight Member since:
2005-07-06

"IDE's are lame anyway, If you can't use vi - You shouldn't be programming."

I don't use VI. In fact, I've never used VI...yet somehow I've been a professional developer for going on 7 years now. Interesting don't ya think? ;-)

(For any folks born w/o a funny bone, yes I realize that BSDFan was being sarcastic)

Reply Score: 5

The "Open Developer's License"
by JonathanBThompson on Sun 9th Sep 2007 03:08 UTC
JonathanBThompson
Member since:
2006-05-26

1. This developer may be used for whatever the hell the community or just one person wants them to be used for.

2. This developer has no rights to choose the licensing terms of any software the community or just one person in paragraph #1 of this license.

3. This developer has no right to object to being told what to do as a developer, when to do it as a developer, and how to do it as a developer.

4. This developer has no right to a personal life while assigned to developing any work for the community or person mentioned in paragraph #1 of this license.

5. This developer never has the right to leave the development of the assigned works as assigned by the community or single person mentioned in paragraph #1 of this license: the developer may only terminate efforts on the assigned works as explicitly written by the community or person in paragraph #1 of this license.

6. This developer has absolutely no rights to stand up for what they believe to be right and express themselves in any manner that violates the views of the community or the person mentioned in paragraph #1 of this license.

7. If anything should be questioned as to what the developer can and cannot do under this license, the letter and spirit of the license is best represented by paragraph #1 of this license, and anything that would extend rights towards the developer under the "Open Developer's License" is interpreted with that being the guiding principle.

Well, that about does it for this "Open Developer's License" and makes it quite clear where whiners stand: clearly they're the masters, and the developers are the slaves, or at least that's what those that can't design and code themselves a solution (for whatever reasons, be it time or ability otherwise) would like to think.

Reply Score: 4

dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

LOL ;)

I know the feeling. Those rules sux. However, nobody has put forth any kind of claim even remotely connected to your homorous post.

The fact that some pointed out that the license was Haiku-incompatible doesn't mean that they want to control the work of the developer. Nobody has claimed that. OTOH virtually nobody are particularly interested in this product because of the license.

You do have a point. Non-coders tend to be aggressive if they don't get what they want. However, we haven't seen any of that behaviour in this thread, or at OSN in general (with the exception of the occasional troll in KDE/Gnome/Vista threads).

Now, stand down and relax. Your reaction is out of line in this context ;)

Reply Score: 7

Java
by adinas on Sun 9th Sep 2007 11:50 UTC
adinas
Member since:
2005-08-17

If they ever get Java working in Haiku, there will be a ton of IDE's available. (Eclipse, Netbeans...)

Reply Score: 2

RE: Java
by stestagg on Sun 9th Sep 2007 14:10 UTC in reply to "Java"
stestagg Member since:
2006-06-03

By the time they manage to build a computer fast enough to run Eclipse, Haiku should be a mature product.

Reply Score: 2

Wow, That's interesting :-)
by BSDfan on Sun 9th Sep 2007 17:13 UTC
BSDfan
Member since:
2007-03-14

Still, If we can discuss legally "questionable" software here on OSNews - Let's all talk about my homemade Windows 3.1 distribution! :-)

Just kidding... ;)

Reply Score: 1

Eclipse?
by Ralf. on Mon 10th Sep 2007 00:01 UTC
Ralf.
Member since:
2005-08-13

I would consider porting Eclipse to Haiku and write some Haiku specific plug-ins for Haiku (if necessary). That would be a much bigger benefit for the future of developing whatever on Haiku than to reinvent the wheel with another platform dependant IDE.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Eclipse?
by schmedly on Mon 10th Sep 2007 00:44 UTC in reply to "Eclipse?"
schmedly Member since:
2006-08-08

I think CodeBlocks would be much more suitable than Eclipse.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Eclipse?
by Ralf. on Mon 10th Sep 2007 08:43 UTC in reply to "RE: Eclipse?"
Ralf. Member since:
2005-08-13

I think the CDT Project will be siutable for Eclipse & C++ development on Haiku: http://wiki.eclipse.org/index.php/CDT

Reply Score: 1

No...
by mmu_man on Mon 10th Sep 2007 10:29 UTC
mmu_man
Member since:
2006-09-30

We'll use XEmacs anyway ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE: No...
by BiPolar on Mon 10th Sep 2007 18:01 UTC in reply to "No..."
BiPolar Member since:
2007-07-06

I was about to reply to BSDFan's "Use Vi instead" post with this:

"Vi? Ahhhhhh!!!! /me runs away scared to death."

But you made me change my mind:

let's run s/Vi/XEmacs on my reply ;)

Reply Score: 1