Linked by Smith Johnson on Tue 25th Sep 2007 20:53 UTC
Apple The internet is abuzz with the news that Apple intends to break iPhones containing third party applications. Unlocked phones are also likely to be victims of the next software update. While community reaction is generally negative, one blogger suggests sending an even stronger message to Apple by boycotting Apple on October 1. If you're running the Installer application, you may want to hold off on any iPhone firmware updates.
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If they do this
by mcduck on Tue 25th Sep 2007 21:10 UTC
mcduck
Member since:
2005-11-23

..they are just plain evil.

Iphone is one of the most locked down devices on the market today. What the heck did they expect?

Edited 2007-09-25 21:12

Reply Score: 10

RE: If they do this
by Kroc on Tue 25th Sep 2007 21:39 UTC in reply to "If they do this"
Kroc Member since:
2005-11-10

Not to mention a joke anyway. The UK release will be a flop. No 3G, no MMS, can't record video (Er, didn't Apple realise that YouTube is powered by uploads??), draconian cell/data charges, can't run iPod games you've already purchased, and can't install any third party apps at all. Plus, you can't unlock it to any SIM easily, or without threat of bricking, despite it being law in the UK to allow unlocking.

I hope Apple get sued over the UK iPhone / iPod touch anti-consumer measures.

Reply Score: 14

RE[2]: If they do this
by rhavyn on Tue 25th Sep 2007 21:42 UTC in reply to "RE: If they do this"
rhavyn Member since:
2005-07-06

The law in the UK isn't as clear cut as you say. It says that you need to allow an unlock after a subsidized contract ends. Since the iPhone isn't subsidized it isn't clear that the law applies to it at all.

Reply Score: 2

but the iPhone is subsidized
by JoeBuck on Tue 25th Sep 2007 22:13 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: If they do this"
JoeBuck Member since:
2006-01-11

Apple is pretty much admitting this: the reason for the exclusive deal with AT&T is so that Apple can share in that revenue. That means that the phone's economics don't work out as a stand-alone device (e.g. one that you can use with any carrier just by plugging in the chip for that carrier, like other GSM phones). It's not subsidized as much as the cheap phones that your carrier gives you for a steep discount in exchange for a signup, but they are subsidized.

That means that the UK law probably applies.

Reply Score: 2

RE: but the iPhone is subsidized
by rhavyn on Tue 25th Sep 2007 22:26 UTC in reply to "but the iPhone is subsidized"
rhavyn Member since:
2005-07-06

Nope, it isn't subsidized. What you describe is revenue sharing. In order for the iPhone to be considered subsidized, the consumer must be paying less than retail for the device in exchange for a contract. That condition doesn't apply at all. Most likely the revenue that is being shared would normally go into a subsidy, but sharing revenue with Apple certainly doesn't make the handset subsidized to the consumer.

Not to mention the fact that the deal Apple has with AT&T doesn't mean anything in the UK, it's what the deal with the UK cellular provider says that matters there.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: If they do this
by Johnnybw2 on Tue 25th Sep 2007 22:17 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: If they do this"
Johnnybw2 Member since:
2007-03-02

I would imagine that it would be treat like pay as you go phones. Operators must unlock them after three months of purchase as they have not been subsidised. I wouldn't be surprised if OFCOM and/or the office of fair trading investigate into it.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: If they do this
by rhavyn on Tue 25th Sep 2007 22:29 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: If they do this"
rhavyn Member since:
2005-07-06

Seriously, do you think Apple is so dumb that they didn't have their lawyers ensure that what they were doing would pass muster under UK law before they released it? Seriously?

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: If they do this
by Soulbender on Wed 26th Sep 2007 03:59 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: If they do this"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

"Seriously, do you think Apple is so dumb that they didn't have their lawyers ensure that what they were doing would pass muster under UK law before they released it? "

Because no company has ever made legal mistakes or misjudged a legal situation or just done things that are illegal/grey and just hoped to get away with it. Ever.
Seriously.

Reply Score: 6

RE[6]: If they do this
by rhavyn on Wed 26th Sep 2007 06:55 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: If they do this"
rhavyn Member since:
2005-07-06

Right, something as basic as whether or not they have to allow the iPhone to be unlocked. That passes the laugh test. Do you believe that? If so, I have some ocean view property in Arizona I'm looking to sell.

Reply Score: 0

The irony
by cyclops on Tue 25th Sep 2007 21:11 UTC
cyclops
Member since:
2006-03-12

Here we are after all the arguments about GPL3 about users wanting freedom over their software on their hardware.

...and here we are with apple being boycotted. Linus spits at you.

:)

Reply Score: 4

RE: The irony
by theTSF on Thu 27th Sep 2007 10:51 UTC in reply to "The irony"
theTSF Member since:
2005-09-27

No not really. It is not like they are using GPL 2 code in their software. So GPL 3 has no effect. If you are saying that All software should go GPL 3 no matter what (restricting freedom) you better not make the argument that the person can choose how he has the right to choose his license. Because Apple didn't choose using GPL or GPL 3 Code for the reason they wanted to lock down the phone.

Reply Score: 1

oh this is just insane
by poundsmack on Tue 25th Sep 2007 21:13 UTC
poundsmack
Member since:
2005-07-13

ok look. i know its fun to mod things like this. and yes the iphone could be even cooler if it was unlocked. but heres what people dont seem to understand, if apple made teh product and made a condition that you can not do these things and you purchased it, well guess what your obligated to that.

if you dont like it dont get one but the fact of the matter is if apple set up those rules and your getting mad you have to follow them then you are being childish. now i dont know what apples EULA is for the iPhone, and if it doesnt make any mention to this then there is enough of a gray area that i too would be mad.

But if it does, rules are rules, deal.

Reply Score: 6

RE: oh this is just insane
by Minty Fresh on Tue 25th Sep 2007 21:19 UTC in reply to "oh this is just insane"
Minty Fresh Member since:
2005-07-06

Don't be a sheep, don't think that a silly license can dictate everything. Otherwise, I hereby revoke your license to post here. By reading this post, you agree to my terms.

Actually, the boycott proposed here is not because of unlocking, but rather, because of the third party apps that extend the iphone.

Also, the problem is not about the license, but rather, the fact that the EULA prohibits this is the first place.

You should really read the article before posting.

Reply Score: 10

RE[2]: oh this is just insane
by evangs on Wed 26th Sep 2007 06:04 UTC in reply to "RE: oh this is just insane"
evangs Member since:
2005-07-07

Don't be a sheep, don't think that a silly license can dictate everything. Otherwise, I hereby revoke your license to post here. By reading this post, you agree to my terms.


Except that you don't run the site. Apple on the other hand, manufactures the iPhone and you buy it from them.

Reply Score: 5

glarepate Member since:
2006-01-04

Not if I buy one from somebody who wants to get rid of their iPhone and sell it to me. Think I would accept license terms from an end user on a piece of used hardware? Would you?

Reply Score: 2

But you BOUGHT it. it is YOUR PHONE
by daddio on Tue 25th Sep 2007 21:23 UTC in reply to "oh this is just insane"
daddio Member since:
2007-07-14

Ah, Steve, you again find yourself on the wrong side of the battle between good and evil.

I think it needs repeating that legal precedents show that satanic EULAS that impose draconian restrictions on the user and especially those that forbid reverse engineering are legally questionable to begin with. their enforceability even more so.

If they want to RENT me an IPHONE for $16.99 a month then they can tell me what to do with it

Reply Score: 5

rhavyn Member since:
2005-07-06

Seriously, go read the articles. Read them carefully and be sure you comprehend them.

Steve Jobs isn't saying you can't hack your phone. He isn't saying he's going to come over to your house and smash your phone with a hammer if he finds you installing apps on it.

He's saying, if you modified your phone congratulations. We hope you had fun. Now don't come to us looking for firmware updates and additional functionality and expect it all to work flawlessly on your modified device. Cause we can't promise that it'll still work since our update assumes an unmodified phone.

Go buy a Nokia, modify the radio firmware, and then complain to them if your phone stops working. See how far that gets you with them. Don't like Nokia, try Motorola, Samsung, LG, hell it doesn't matter which, they'll all laugh at you just as hard.

Reply Score: 18

Macrat Member since:
2006-03-27

Steve Jobs isn't saying you can't hack your phone. He isn't saying he's going to come over to your house and smash your phone with a hammer if he finds you installing apps on it.

Of course not. Steve Jobs has contracted O.J. Simpson to do all the iPhone smashing.

Reply Score: 4

daddio Member since:
2007-07-14

Actually in public statements he HAS in fact said that Apple will do everything they can to prevent it from being hacked. That and the EULA itself.

Reply Score: 3

rhavyn Member since:
2005-07-06

He said they'd prevent it from being hacked. He said nothing about intentionally bricking an already hacked phone. I'm sure the next firmware update will make it much harder to hack the phone. But this most recent comment is a public service announcement to make it clear that they are not responsible and won't help you if you were dumb enough to hack your phone and still expect software updates to work correctly.

Reply Score: 1

Almafeta Member since:
2007-02-22

He's saying, if you modified your phone congratulations. We hope you had fun. Now don't come to us looking for firmware updates and additional functionality and expect it all to work flawlessly on your modified device. Cause we can't promise that it'll still work since our update assumes an unmodified phone.


*sigh*

Another case of the article and the preview being only distantly related...

Reply Score: 3

RE: oh this is just insane
by Soulbender on Wed 26th Sep 2007 04:06 UTC in reply to "oh this is just insane"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

"and made a condition that you can not do these things and you purchased it, well guess what your obligated to that."

No you're not. Contract/licenses can't exempt your legal rights and consumer law and what the actual *law* says is what matters.

"now i dont know what apples EULA is for the iPhone"

You're presuming EULA's are even valid and that anything you put in a EULA is a valid clause. That is not necessary the case.

Note that I'm not saying Apple is wrong, hacking your phone is pretty much the same as voiding the warranty and if future upgrades break it...tough luck.
Then again, it does depend on your countries consumer laws and what they say.

Edited 2007-09-26 04:19

Reply Score: 3

RE: oh this is just insane
by Laurence on Wed 26th Sep 2007 07:39 UTC in reply to "oh this is just insane"
Laurence Member since:
2007-03-26

One could argue that Apples actions are breaking the same anti-competative laws that MS have been and an EULA cannot override law.

Reply Score: 2

Partially true, but mostly false.
by g2devi on Wed 26th Sep 2007 16:51 UTC in reply to "oh this is just insane"
g2devi Member since:
2005-07-09

If you *buy* hardware, you can use it any way you like. If I want to hack it or canabalize it for parts to create a robot or even use it as a paperweight, I can do so and Apple can't legally do anything.

The most they can do is to void your warranty. Nothing more. Heck, voiding your warranty was a rite of passage for Commondore 64 owners and many computer users in the 1980s.

That being said, if software updates are a condition of the warranty, Apple could choose to not support modded iPhones. But unless they made it clear to existing iPhone users that they were voiding their warranty *when they bought the iPhone*, they may be in some legal problem if they (1) unilaterally rewrite the *contract*, (2) damage *other people's* property with their virus that mascarades as a software update.

If this is the case, the safest thing they can do is to put it in the warranty and to disable software updates if they detect a modded iPhones in existing systems and do their damage on new systems.

But even then, they can't legally damage the new systems if they don't use the software updates (e.g. through other unrealated Apple software) and instead go to something like RockBox or iPodLinux (once they're ported).

Reply Score: 2

OMG you people are idiots
by rhavyn on Tue 25th Sep 2007 21:19 UTC
rhavyn
Member since:
2005-07-06

Apple didn't say they are planning on bricking anything. They said that they aren't promising that a future upgrade applied to a modified iPhone will work correctly. Cause guess what, they can't promise that. You went and reprogrammed the radio in the iPhone. Do you understand what change that made? Doubt it. Is Apple supposed to hunt down every hack available and test that their upgrade doesn't cause a conflict with those hacks? If you think they should then I'm sure Apple has no problem losing you as a customer.

Their statement has nothing to do with doing a jailbreak and installing third party apps. They are talking about doing an unlock.

Reply Score: 13

RE: OMG you people are idiots
by butters on Tue 25th Sep 2007 22:43 UTC in reply to "OMG you people are idiots"
butters Member since:
2005-07-08

Apple didn't say they are planning on bricking anything.

Well, Steve's first comment on the matter implied intent. Subsequently, Apple spokespeople have denied intent and claimed that the bricking is a totally coincidental side-effect running the updates on modded iPhones. I doubt this distinction really matters to many iPhone owners.

OT: My college fraternity had a tradition where brothers would put a brick in front of another brother's door during a party if he was about to fall victim to an embarrassing beer-goggle-related decision. The logic was that the presence of the brick in front of the door would jog some mental circuit at the last moment and encourage the brother to reconsider what he's about to do. Steve needs a good bricking. He's clearly drunk on his own distortion field and would benefit from one more moment of reflection.

Is Apple supposed to hunt down every hack available and test that their upgrade doesn't cause a conflict with those hacks?

No, they're supposed to provide third-party developers with a framework for declaring their modifications in such a way that the update process can respond appropriately to the user's unique software configuration. It may seem logical that an update only applies to an unmodified system, but this is a limitation characteristic of an immature and impractical platform.

Apple can't and won't thread the needle by positioning the iPhone as a kinda-sorta software platform. With this decision, they make it clear that the iPhone is not a platform at all. It is an appliance that only works as intended by the manufacturer and cannot be extended by users or third-party developers. To Apple, adding new functionality to an iPhone is as ridiculous as doing so to a digital camera or a microwave oven.

Unfortunately, this is the way Apple does business, and as post-PC devices proliferate, the limitations of this model will become increasingly apparent to savvy users. Why are so many obvious features missing from the iPhone? Why is the iPod Touch needlessly crippled? Why isn't the AppleTV a full-featured thin client? The hardware is full of so much unexploited potential, but Apple has already frozen the use-cases for these gadgets, and we can take it or leave it.

Apple does a very good job with their hardware and an unsurpassed job with their form factors. But they aren't impressing me with their software lately, even on their PC products, and the situation is getting more and more absurd when it comes to their post-PC products. These devices are a disappointing waste of good hardware and great design because of their philosophy on software and service.

I skipped the PDA era and I'm resisting the feature/smartphone movement for the time being. I'm waiting for a nice touchscreen smartphone that runs OpenMoko or Qtopia. If I invest in one of these devices, I'm going to make sure that the software will evolve freely until the hardware becomes the limiting factor. And I better be able to change service providers like diapers (usually for the same reason).

Edited 2007-09-25 22:46

Reply Score: 11

RE[2]: OMG you people are idiots
by rhavyn on Tue 25th Sep 2007 22:53 UTC in reply to "RE: OMG you people are idiots"
rhavyn Member since:
2005-07-06

Well, Steve's first comment on the matter implied intent.

Oh, well there you go. QED. You proved it to me. The mere fact that, with squinty eyes peering at it sideways maybe you can see that he thought about intending it at some point ... it must be true! Or, you can simply believe that he said what he meant which is that they will release a software update which makes hacking the iPhone difficult. Kinda like how hacking the iPod Touch is difficult to hack. Nope, you're right, he must have meant they are going to maliciously brick devices.

No, they're supposed to provide third-party developers with a framework for declaring their modifications in such a way that the update process can respond appropriately to the user's unique software configuration.

I'm sure since you told them they're supposed to, they're busy releasing it right now. I mean, if butters tells a company their supposed to do things in a certain way, they toe up to the line and listen!

It is an appliance that only works as intended by the manufacturer and cannot be extended users or third-party developers.

DING DING DING, we have a winner. But, why should people believe the device is what Apple advertises it as instead of what they want it to be. That's silly.

But they aren't impressing me with their software lately, even on their PC products, and the situation is getting more and more absurd when it comes to their post-PC products.

And for everyone who thinks that, it's OK. Really. No one, besides you and your loved ones, care what you buy. If the iPhone, an admittedly closed platform, isn't what you want, buy something else!

But that's the whole point isn't it? People decided that they wanted the product they wanted, not the one Apple released. So they modified it. And now their feelings are all hurt because Apple still doesn't care. Not only do they not care, they aren't even going to try and make sure they don't break your modifications. It's almost comical watching them try and rationalize how they'll be able to sue Apple or something. Like then, suddenly, Apple will care and make the phone into what they want, instead of what Apple is selling.

Reply Score: 8

digitaldisaster Member since:
2006-01-02

Oh my god there is someone else with a brain here!
Thank you good sir.

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: OMG you people are idiots
by DittoBox on Wed 26th Sep 2007 00:22 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: OMG you people are idiots"
DittoBox Member since:
2005-07-08

This is the problem: we assume that new techonology is somehow like microwaves, toasters and other "appliances."

But toasters don't connect to a global information network and download software that updates themselves. The toaster mfg. doesn't send you a new timer for your toaster every few months.

What we have here is something totally new, something we can't quite compare to anything before us. So let's stop making comparisons and poor analogies and try to understand that we have to better define what these devices are.

It doesn't matter though whether a software update that causes a bricked iPhone due to tampering is legel, or ethical (frankly if you don't use a product the way it was designed, you're asking for trouble, even if it was designed to work one way and shipped another).

We can all agree that Apple will be bricking unlocked iPhones, and that bricking is by design. Anyone with the slightest understanding of technology knows that Apple can make a phone that has a replaceable SIM card. We also know that they can lock that sim card in place and keep users from changing carriers without some hackery, which they've done. However they can design the system to withstand an upgrade and be unlocked at the same time. They can also design that system to Die Horribly if it's been unlocked and an upgrade is still attempted.

Frankly, I think Apple just did the latter long before the iPhone was released. This was entirely planned out. Is it intentional? Yes. Is the updater looking at the system and saying, "is it unlocked? yeah? OK, brick yourself." No, I doubt it very much. You can design the firmware and the sim stuff to be done in a way that when it's previously unlocked and then flashed with official firmware it pukes on you.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: OMG you people are idiots
by rhavyn on Wed 26th Sep 2007 02:20 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: OMG you people are idiots"
rhavyn Member since:
2005-07-06

We can all agree that Apple will be bricking unlocked iPhones, and that bricking is by design.

We can? How about some proof. Cause I don't agree.

Anyone with the slightest understanding of technology knows that Apple can make a phone that has a replaceable SIM card.

It's great that we can agree on that, cause they did release a phone with a replaceable SIM card.

However they can design the system to withstand an upgrade and be unlocked at the same time.

And this is where you tell us how to do so. Cause I've worked on embedded systems in general and cell phones in particular and, in the lab, I've bricked hardware because of a bad firmware upgrade. So, since you are obviously embedded systems developer par excellence, you can tell us all how such a system would work. Correctly. 100% of the time. Cause ya know, if you miss even one corner case and it bricks a device because of a firmware upgrade, then you're back to where Apple is right now where they just can't promise it'll work.

You can design the firmware and the sim stuff to be done in a way that when it's previously unlocked and then flashed with official firmware it pukes on you.

We're all waiting patiently for your design. I'm sure it'll be excellent.

Reply Score: 0

RE[5]: OMG you people are idiots
by raver31 on Wed 26th Sep 2007 05:25 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: OMG you people are idiots"
raver31 Member since:
2005-07-06

***yawn*** code lengths and checksums...if they don't match, jump to brick_me_routine

Some systems designer you must have been !

Reply Score: 3

StephenBeDoper Member since:
2005-07-06

We're all waiting patiently for your design. I'm sure it'll be excellent.


The condescending snark is strong in this one.

Reply Score: 2

StephenBeDoper Member since:
2005-07-06

It's great that we can agree on that, cause they did release a phone with a replaceable SIM card.


So you can stick in a SIM card from some other random GSM phone, regardless of network, and the iPhone will work as-expected?

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: OMG you people are idiots
by butters on Wed 26th Sep 2007 02:02 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: OMG you people are idiots"
butters Member since:
2005-07-08

Nope, you're right, he must have meant they are going to maliciously brick devices.

I'm referring to Steve's original quote where he likened the relationship between Apple and iPhone hackers to "a constant cat and mouse game". He wouldn't have said this unless he envisioned a long-term strategy of explicitly resisting third-party modifications. The term "malicious" involves a values judgment that I prefer to avoid. Some users will see this policy as malicious and others will defend it. But Steve's comment implies that the effect of this policy, malicious or not, is the intent of the company.

People decided that they wanted the product they wanted, not the one Apple released. So they modified it. And now their feelings are all hurt because Apple still doesn't care.

And you defend this hurtful relationship for what reason? Why do you seem to derive enjoyment from the fact that users are disappointed with their purchase? Why do you seem to find it funny that users are frustrated with Apple's policies? Why do you seem to find it absurd that Apple would care about the possibility of backlash from their users?

I believe that it is sure sign of social decay that we subjugate ourselves so willingly to oppressive corporations--that we routinely place the corporation's right to do business as they wish over the consumer's right to be treated with dignity. I'm sick of avoiding innovative products and services because they're evil, and I'm dismayed that less vigilant consumers are so often driven to choose one of a few evils.

I mean, if butters tells a company their supposed to do things in a certain way, they toe up to the line and listen!

That's a stupid criticism to make of an opinion posted on a website. But it speaks to a broader question: why don't many vendors care what their users think of their products? The answer is simple: they don't care because we'll buy them even if they're not what we really want. This situation demonstrates this phenomenon quite clearly.

Opponents of corporate regulation rely heavily on the idea that consumers will vote with their dollar. But we don't. I'm sure there's market research that explores this fact in great detail. But it's clear to me that we must have government regulation of corporations, because we have proven ourselves incapable of providing feedback through a free market. We don't have the discipline as consumers to take a stand against oppressive business practices. We must regulate business through democracy, because capitalism alone isn't providing effective oversight.

I'm sorry to disappoint the supporters of free markets and self-determinism, but we've demonstrated empirically that we need to be protected from ourselves. We're so irresponsible, short-sighted, and ignorant that you'd think we're in a dark age rather than in an information revolution. Maybe this is really an information devolution. Whatever it is, consumers are gleefully surrendering in a crucial battle against corporate tyranny.

We don't have to worry about authoritarian government and centralized social planning. We're so fearful of oppressive government that we have rendered ourselves powerless against oppressive corporations. Either we need to resist the temptation of Apple's catchy ads ("one, two, three, four, I didn't hate this song before"), or we need to push for legislation that requires open APIs for mass-market computing devices. Otherwise our weakness will continue to be exploited by increasingly brazen vendors.

Reply Score: 8

RE[4]: OMG you people are idiots
by rhavyn on Wed 26th Sep 2007 02:34 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: OMG you people are idiots"
rhavyn Member since:
2005-07-06

I'm referring to Steve's original quote where he likened the relationship between Apple and iPhone hackers to "a constant cat and mouse game".

Right, we went over this in my previous reply. "Cat and mouse game" is obviously Steve Job's nefarious code for "brick an iPhone." I'm sure everyone sees that clear as day. Or, as I said in my previous comment, it could just mean that Apple is going to keep trying to stop people from hacking the phone. And hackers are going to keep trying to hack it. You know, the way most people interpret the phrase "cat and mouse game."

And you defend this hurtful relationship for what reason? Why do you seem to derive enjoyment from the fact that users are disappointed with their purchase? Why do you seem to find it funny that users are frustrated with Apple's policies? Why do you seem to find it absurd that Apple would care about the possibility of backlash from their users?

Odd, where did you get any of that in my comment. I actually outright said that I don't care. The fact that you can even have a "hurtful" relationship with a company because you don't like their product is enough evidence that you don't exceed my "important enough to care about you" bar. As for why I don't care why people are unhappy with their purchase, it's because they're idiots. Apple was quite clear regarding what the iPhone was. They were quite clear it was AT&T exclusive. They went out of their way to tell everyone their was no SDK for third party apps. Yet those idiots went and bought it anyways. Well guess what, if you buy something that isn't what you want, you know it isn't what you want, but then you complain about how it isn't what you want, you're an idiot. They then compound their idiocy by making unauthorized modifications to said product and complain again, louder, that the company that wouldn't provide them with the product they wanted, won't support their modifications. What's the point of caring about someone who so obviously is going out of their way to make their own life difficult?

As for Apple not caring about the backlash, why would they? These people aren't Apple's customers. They went out of their way to do everything Apple said *not* to do. The people who do things like this cost a company money, not the other way around. Now, I'm sure Apple is taking notes of what people think, but all products have limitations. You have to choose the product that is right for you. If the iPhone isn't right for you, that's OK. Really. Apple will forgive you. Steve Jobs won't call you names. But, on the flip side, don't think that rational, thinking people are going to defend you when you decide to call Steve Jobs and Apple names for not bowing to your every whim.

This situation demonstrates this phenomenon quite clearly.

What's the saying about stupid people and their money?

The rest of your comment is a little too far fetched for me. But, seriously, do *you* honestly feel sorry for some idiot that buys something they know they won't like and then complains about it?

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: OMG you people are idiots
by butters on Wed 26th Sep 2007 04:23 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: OMG you people are idiots"
butters Member since:
2005-07-08

But, seriously, do *you* honestly feel sorry for some idiot that buys something they know they won't like and then complains about it?

I don't know if I feel sorry for them as much as I'm disappointed in them and frustrated by them. After all, vigilant, rational consumers like you and I are negatively impacted because many other consumers are providing irrational feedback into the market. We don't get what we want in part because other consumers are paying for products that aren't what they want.

So it's not enough to keep ourselves informed and make smart purchasing decisions. We're just a tiny fraction of a market that has more than its fair share of idiots, and our fortunes rise and fall with their's. If the market is largely willing to accept restrictive EULAs, then that's all we'll get to choose from.

One of the hallmarks of fiscal conservatism is that people who make smart financial decisions will profit at the expense of the less inclined. But for consumers, there is no clear advantage to being more savvy than average. In general, informed consumers don't get what they want because other consumers are far less demanding.

Free markets are dominated by aggressive producers and passive consumers. Every time an idiot consumer is separated from his money, a savvy consumer is separated from smarter alternatives. So I guess I feel sorry for myself that there's so many idiots buying products like the iPhone. It's hurting me more than it's hurting them.

Reply Score: 7

RE[6]: OMG you people are idiots
by rhavyn on Wed 26th Sep 2007 06:57 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: OMG you people are idiots"
rhavyn Member since:
2005-07-06

Agree 100%.

Reply Score: 2

puenktchen Member since:
2007-07-27

word!

basicly, apple is warning you to relock your iphone before you update. there will be an app available for doing so, but of course not provided by apple:

http://arstechnica.com/journals/apple.ars/2007/09/25/iphone-dev-tea...

and yes, the fact that the iphone is locked sucks bigtime. it's locked because apple wants total control about user experience and pricing. they can't get that without exclusive deals with carriers, and the net-lock is the price the customers have to pay. seeing how the phone-companies give a way expensive phones to lure you into an expensive contract, cripple the software of their phones and provide nearly no customer-support, i can see the reasoning behind this decision. still, i think the net-lock is to high a price to be paid.

Reply Score: 1

StephenBeDoper Member since:
2005-07-06

Apple does a very good job with their hardware and an unsurpassed job with their form factors. But they aren't impressing me with their software lately, even on their PC products, and the situation is getting more and more absurd when it comes to their post-PC products. These devices are a disappointing waste of good hardware and great design because of their philosophy on software and service.


Amen. That seems to have been one of the largest changes since NeXT took over Apple: the focus now seems to be on stuff that will draw "oohs" and "ahhs" from tradeshow audiences, rather than Apple's previous attention to small details that people appreciate during day-to-day use. E.g., I was amazed to read in the ArsTechnica review of the iPhone that it lacks the ability to copy-paste text between applications - that's not a minor oversight, that's laughably-inept.

Reply Score: 2

Won't Work....
by Jon Dough on Tue 25th Sep 2007 21:31 UTC
Jon Dough
Member since:
2005-11-30

While I understand and agree with the frustration & anger of iPhone owners, the "boycott Apple for a day" (October 1st) reminds me of the various "don't by gasoline on [insert date here]!" boycotts. They don't work, because all you're doing is shifting your activity to a different day. Search www.snopes.com for "boycott" for a more detailed discussion of why this sort of boycott won't work.

Reply Score: 6

Well Done Apple
by segedunum on Tue 25th Sep 2007 21:38 UTC
segedunum
Member since:
2005-07-06

All the paranoia that stopped the Mac gaining critical mass in the desktop world you're repeating here. The only difference is that this is a somewhat different market where Microsoft aren't going to come in and dominate.

The future are music stores such as Amazon's, where people can download high bitrate MP3s that any portable music player is capable of playing. Different formats and DRM are just creating another form of lock-in, either for the people producing the music players or the people controlling the dominant formats and the music stores. It just isn't going to last in the long run.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Well Done Apple
by tryphcycle on Wed 26th Sep 2007 17:25 UTC in reply to "Well Done Apple"
tryphcycle Member since:
2006-02-16

"All the paranoia that stopped the Mac gaining critical mass in the desktop world you're repeating here. The only difference is that this is a somewhat different market where Microsoft aren't going to come in and dominate.

The future are music stores such as Amazon's, where people can download high bitrate MP3s that any portable music player is capable of playing. Different formats and DRM are just creating another form of lock-in, either for the people producing the music players or the people controlling the dominant formats and the music stores. It just isn't going to last in the long run."


want to bet some money on your dated perspective? cus i have. i am invested in AAPL... and i believe apple will prosper! they are going to do things there way. maybe with the mac... that hurt them in the previous generation... but this is a new world. people LOVE apple. people LOVE the Mac. they LOVE the iPod... they LOVE the iPhone. and they LOVE the direction apple is going! people DONT love MS... or DELL... or HP... people are getting sick of how things have been done... and now the time for change is upon us!

Apple is going to get bigger... wether you like it or not. the good news for you is the you WILL have a choice in where you spend your money! cus no company will EVERY LOCK people in like MS has... and that is a good thing!

Reply Score: 0

you get what you paid for
by miro on Tue 25th Sep 2007 21:42 UTC
miro
Member since:
2005-07-13

don't get me wrong I like the iphone. but it is not a smartphone just a rather fancy featurephone. they don't want third party software, so if you want to boycot don't buy it in the first place:) if they didn't make the device with 3rd party in mind you really can't expect them to care about you. it is the same on other platforms even the open ones, if you don't stick to the rules (public api) it is your fault... over and out.

Browser: Palm680/RC1 Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows 98; PalmSource/Palm-D053; Blazer/4.5) 16;320x320

Reply Score: 2

graigsmith
Member since:
2006-04-05

people always like to imagine that apple is some free software/good guy company. but they aren't they are closed source/proprietary--to the extreme.. even more closed than microsoft. They don't care about your freedom. and it's in their best interests (and microsoft's) to prevent you from having the same kind of freedom that the free software movement ensures.

If apple cared about freedom they would GPL their operating system. but thats not their goal. they have the same goal microsoft does. to tie you to their products and make it hard to use anything else. or to make them so pretty that you want to use them anyway

proprietary software and hardware has problems like this, you can only use it the way they want you to. so just ask yourself why did you PAY to be forced to use something a particular way?? proprietary things suck.

Reply Score: 9

tryphcycle Member since:
2006-02-16

NEWS FLASH.... APPLE is NOT your typical IT company! they never will be!!!! WHY do you people insist on them acting like every one else?!?!?!? for decades you anti-apple heads have been boycotting apple. and guess what.... that aint going away! the iPhone is its own thing... its new... its different... and yea... maybe it "locked".... for now! GET THE FRIG OVER IT! if you don;t like that it is locked.... PLEASE go spend you $$$ else where! buy and MS phone... buy a nokia... and BE FRIGGN happy. other wise... buy and iPhone for what it is... not what you wish it would be!!!

At some point... most of you complainers will see the light... in either direction, and see that the iPhone IS a revolution... OR you'll be happy with a competitors device!


Oh... can damn yoiu people.... can i make another NEWS F'N flash! INTEL.... Propriatary!!! Windows Propriatary!!!! Palm.....Propriatary!!!!!

GET OVER IT!!!!!!

in the words of the great Ian McKaye "is not what their selling... its what you're buying"

Reply Score: 0

dumb...
by FunkyELF on Tue 25th Sep 2007 21:59 UTC
FunkyELF
Member since:
2006-07-26

Its dumb to boycott because of something like this.
As locked down and crappy as it is, nobody should be buying it anyway.

Those that bought it without planning on unlocking it are sheep*.

Those that bought it planning on unlocking it paid too much.

*I went to a Best Buy the other day and I was so disgusted to see a girl (around 20 years old) with her boyfriend just walking around. They noticed the new Apple section of the store and she said "Oooh" as she ran over there looking like a 4 year old in a candy store. Thats the kind of sheep I was referring to above

Reply Score: 4

RE: dumb...
by altair on Wed 26th Sep 2007 00:15 UTC in reply to "dumb..."
altair Member since:
2005-07-06

Just because you think it is dumb to like Apple products doesn't mean that other people should agree with you. Some people want tools that just work and that is what Apple tends to deliver better than most companies.

You probably prefer openness and tons of features. That's fine. Go use Linux and get a blackberry or something and I won't call you dumb or a sheep. The openness of a product is not something that most people will consider as a top priority.

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: dumb...
by th3rmite on Wed 26th Sep 2007 08:40 UTC in reply to "dumb..."
th3rmite Member since:
2006-01-08

"Those that bought it without planning on unlocking it are sheep"

Yeah, because it's impossible for someone to actually like something that you don't.

Reply Score: 3

RE: dumb...
by Manik on Wed 26th Sep 2007 10:39 UTC in reply to "dumb..."
Manik Member since:
2005-07-06

I wasn't aware of that new definition of "sheep" : people who like well designed and beautiful objects*, "and look at them like 4 years old in a candy store".

You probably wouldn't have noticed if she had run to the Kitchen Aid section, or would have smiled, and anyway wouldn't have seen her as "sheep".

* Yeah, I know, it's subjective, at least for the beauty.

Reply Score: 1

RE: dumb...
by peejay on Wed 26th Sep 2007 13:09 UTC in reply to "dumb..."
peejay Member since:
2005-06-29

*I went to a Best Buy the other day and I was so disgusted to see a girl (around 20 years old) with her boyfriend just walking around. They noticed the new Apple section of the store and she said "Oooh" as she ran over there looking like a 4 year old in a candy store. Thats the kind of sheep I was referring to above

sheep: a docile and vulnerable person who would rather follow than make an independent decision

Who is the sheep in this story?

1. the girl that led the way to the Apple section
2. the boyfriend that got dragged to the Apple section
3. the one repeating the Macs are too expensive argument

p.s. Your first sentence says you were disgusted to see them just walking around. What is it you do when you're at Best Buy that's different?

Reply Score: 2

Gotta love the Ignorance of Hackers
by tyrione on Tue 25th Sep 2007 22:10 UTC
tyrione
Member since:
2005-11-21

Telcos intentionally cripple phones and screw you every which way since Sunday. Then Apple offers a smartphone that can be unofficially hacked and the hackers are whining that their hacks will get hacked unintentionally.

Grow the f*** up. Apple had to comply with certain legal constraints in order to get what they got from AT&T. The same constraints are with their future contract carriers.

Apple isn't a Telco.

Perhaps you all should start a fund and set up their grid for them?

Edited 2007-09-25 22:11

Reply Score: 2

Dear Microsoft
by digitaldisaster on Tue 25th Sep 2007 22:14 UTC
digitaldisaster
Member since:
2006-01-02

Dear Microsoft,

I opened up one of the Windows DLLs in a hex editor, changed a load of bits in it and now after running Windows Update my computer BSODs, please fix it.

Thanks,
Whinning Jimmy

Reply Score: 6

RE: Dear Microsoft
by jayson.knight on Tue 25th Sep 2007 22:19 UTC in reply to "Dear Microsoft"
jayson.knight Member since:
2005-07-06

"I opened up one of the Windows DLLs in a hex editor, changed a load of bits in it and now after running Windows Update my computer BSODs, please fix it."

Technically speaking, Windows File Protection should kick in and restore the correct version. A good point though...

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Dear Microsoft
by digitaldisaster on Tue 25th Sep 2007 22:45 UTC in reply to "RE: Dear Microsoft"
digitaldisaster Member since:
2006-01-02

Windows file protection being about as effective as the iPhone's security. ;-)

Reply Score: 1

RE: Dear Microsoft
by Adam S on Tue 25th Sep 2007 22:20 UTC in reply to "Dear Microsoft"
Adam S Member since:
2005-04-01

Um.... no. More like:

--

Dear Microsoft:

I installed an application. Then I ran Windows Update. Now not only is my computer not booting, I'm told it is un-repairable.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Dear Microsoft
by digitaldisaster on Tue 25th Sep 2007 22:42 UTC in reply to "RE: Dear Microsoft"
digitaldisaster Member since:
2006-01-02

If you were allowed to install apps on the iPhone and there was an officially supported SDK and installation method then that would be true but you can't so it's not.
If you want to use the installing an application metaphor then this is more akin to someone installing a program which uses some of the undocumented hooks in the Windows API then complaining to Microsoft when it breaks in an update. It's not a documented and supported, stable API so it will break and it isn't their problem if it does.
If you use the Win32 or .Net APIs then it's supported (the equivilent of the AJAX web app support on the iPhone) then you won't have any problems with support but if you start playing arround with undocumented things that you have been told repeatedly are unsupported then when you have problems (and at some point you ARE going to have problems) don't run crying to Apple.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Dear Microsoft
by Adam S on Tue 25th Sep 2007 23:18 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Dear Microsoft"
Adam S Member since:
2005-04-01

No, that's not true. Steve Jobs claimed in January that the iPhone "runs OS X." You can't say using the standard API is "undocumented hooks." That's nonsense. Stop drinking the Kool Aid. This is designed for one reason: to re-sell you these features in the next iPhone.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Dear Microsoft
by meianoite on Wed 26th Sep 2007 03:06 UTC in reply to "RE: Dear Microsoft"
meianoite Member since:
2006-04-05

Dear Microsoft:

I installed an application. Then I ran Windows Update. Now not only is my computer not booting, I'm told it is un-repairable.


I guess you mean an "application" like PARADOX's SLP2.0 emulator that enables you to run Vista Ultimate in an unauthorised manner?


And please, spare me of hours talking about how it's a consumer right to use the iPhone on whatever carrier you wish. No, it's not. You knew the deal before you bought it. It was not a mischievously hidden clause on unreadable fine print. Everyone is aware of the AT&T exclusivity. Everyone is aware of the financial agreements between Apple and AT&T, and that one is bound by contract to honour such agreements with the other, even if the exact terms are not (and shouldn't be anyway) publicly disclosed. That's the package you bought, that's the package you have the rights for unless some terms are modified by a court of law.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Dear Microsoft
by Adam S on Wed 26th Sep 2007 11:30 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Dear Microsoft"
Adam S Member since:
2005-04-01

No, I mean a plain old application, like WinZip or WinAmp, which is what Installer.app installs: just apps in the OS X system running on the phone. No unlock, no support for other carriers, none of the nonsense you're spouting.

And by the way, I'm not "sparing" you anything - I'm talking about third party apps, not unlocking, which you would know had you actually read the article OR the previous comments, but instead, like so many, you just show up and rabble without having even read the history here. Lame.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Dear Microsoft
by meianoite on Wed 26th Sep 2007 13:12 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Dear Microsoft"
meianoite Member since:
2006-04-05

No, I mean a plain old application, like WinZip or WinAmp, which is what Installer.app installs: just apps in the OS X system running on the phone. No unlock, no support for other carriers, none of the nonsense you're spouting.

And by the way, I'm not "sparing" you anything - I'm talking about third party apps, not unlocking, which you would know had you actually read the article OR the previous comments, but instead, like so many, you just show up and rabble without having even read the history here. Lame.


Adam, are you insane?

First, the Slashdot article linked is very specific regarding the brickage of unlocked phones, and I'll go as far as saying the introductory text by Mr. Smith Johnson is outright irresponsible. Second, 2 (Sept. 24th) days ago Phil Schiller has gone on record saying they're not proactively bricking phones, but they don't want to be held accountable if modified iPhones suffer from a bad flash.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/technology/AP-Apple-iPhone.html?_r=...

The text spin on the Ars Technica article is also precisely this, a spin on the facts. The only quote being floated around --elsewhere, because nowhere in that article a community is mentioned, only Jacqui's wondering-- is from Erica Badun, hardly a girl one can call the "iPhone community" except when adorned with "hacking" between those words.

And all of this right after Sept. 11th, when Greg Joswiak himself went on record saying Apple's taking a neutral stance regarding 3rd party native apps.

http://www.gearlog.com/2007/09/apples_joswiak_we_dont_hate_ip.php

Nobody said, anywhere, that iPhones with third apps installed *may* be bricked, only the unlocked ones *might*.

So, now's my turn, given that you jumped the gun on me and I happen to have solid and sound information to say what I wrote now and on the previous post: lame.


Edit: BTW, cry me a river if your modified PS2, PSP, Wii, XBox, XBox360, Linksys router and whatnot become bricked after some unauthorised modification of the firmware. This is *far worse* than the information Apple has circulated. The fact that some people wish Apple won't ruin something when updating software that's no more in the known state they're expected to be doesn't make it true, and the iPhone Dev Team accepted that. Now, the fact that a phone *may* brick because not only does the unlocking process fiddle with baseband radio firmware but also with replacing native binaries that are part of the firmware uploading process, this can only be expected. Go flash the baseband of a Nokia phone, run the internet flash updater, have it bricked, and complain about it to Nokia. Let me know when they stop laughing.

Edited 2007-09-26 13:21

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Dear Microsoft
by Adam S on Wed 26th Sep 2007 13:24 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Dear Microsoft"
Adam S Member since:
2005-04-01

http://iphone.macworld.com/2007/09/apple_software_updates_will_mo_1...

Software updates will “most likely break” native apps. There's no reason for this, just as software updates to my Tiger will not likely break SubEthaEdit on my Mac proper. There's no need for Apple to test the iPhone with all software, just to adopt a neutral stance. "The iPhone 1.1.1 update has not been tested with third party applications. If your phone has been modified, no guaratee is provided."

However, it is clear from reading many sources, including TUAW and most other sites that the general consensus is that Apple will intentionally break third party apps. That's the gripe.

BTW, Apple backed off the statements that they are neutral towards 3rd party apps. If they actually were, life would be peachy.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: Dear Microsoft
by meianoite on Wed 26th Sep 2007 13:36 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Dear Microsoft"
meianoite Member since:
2006-04-05

http://iphone.macworld.com/2007/09/apple_software_updates_will_mo_1.....

Software updates will “most likely break” native apps. There's no reason for this, just as software updates to my Tiger will not likely break SubEthaEdit on my Mac proper.


Actually, there's the golden reason: the API is private and unreleased, even if it mostly resembles what's there on the desktop.

There's no need for Apple to test the iPhone with all software, just to adopt a neutral stance. "The iPhone 1.1.1 update has not been tested with third party applications. If your phone has been modified, no guaratee is provided."


Translation: "If you happen to buy commercial native 3rd party apps, don't whine with *us* if it breaks. We're not at all worried about the open source situation anyway, since these hackers are talented enough to work around the incompatibilities that might arise.", right? So, re-read Joswiak's statement (scroll down a little, I have reproduced it right below). Then read the license on the firmware update when it shows up. Before this happens, this is all unfounded speculation.

I see zero indication of *bricking* a jailbroken and Installer.app-ed iPhone, just like firmware 1.0.2 didn't brick it after jailbreaking 1.0.1.

iPhones with modified baseband firmware are a different story completely.

However, it is clear from reading many sources, including TUAW and most other sites that the general consensus is that Apple will intentionally break third party apps. That's the gripe.


Oh, you mean... Wild speculation from non-authoritative sources?

BTW, Apple backed off the statements that they are neutral towards 3rd party apps. If they actually were, life would be peachy.


Sources, please? Here's their stance on Sept. 11th: "I asked him about independent, native software development for the iPhone. He said Apple doesn't oppose native application development, which was new to me. Rather, Apple takes a neutral stance - they're not going to stop anyone from writing apps, and they're not going to maliciously design software updates to break the native apps, but they're not going to care if their software updates accidentally break the native apps either.". Source: http://www.gearlog.com/2007/09/apples_joswiak_we_dont_hate_ip.php

So, again, how exactly is their position different today than 2 weeks ago?


Edit: stray "/q" tag. And a little clarification regarding my "translation".

Edited 2007-09-26 13:43

Reply Score: 3

Sheeple
by Smeagol on Tue 25th Sep 2007 22:25 UTC
Smeagol
Member since:
2006-01-16

All Apple stated is that if you put crap onto your iPhone, and we ship an update, there might be a conflict (which we can't test, as we consider the phone closed). So, don't be upset and/or surprise when you brick you own phone. Bokay?

Reply Score: 2

RE: Sheeple
by digitaldisaster on Tue 25th Sep 2007 22:37 UTC in reply to "Sheeple"
digitaldisaster Member since:
2006-01-02

Why is it that people can not get the simple point through their thick skulls that if you do something unsupported which Apple have had to deliberatly work around protection measures we put in place THEN APPLE WILL NOT SUPPORT IT! Why is that so hard to understand?
At least one or two people here get it. Sometimes I think people see the word "Apple", start frothing at the mouth and loose the ability to think straight. It's not the zealots I'm talking about but (for want of a better word) the anti-zealots.

Reply Score: 0

Wake up people
by Lakedaemon on Tue 25th Sep 2007 22:41 UTC
Lakedaemon
Member since:
2005-08-07

I find this sentence very funny :

"I suspect Jobs is locking it down so he can resell it to us in iPhone generation 2, which is so Microsoft-ian is scares me that maybe Apple is becoming just as evil as Redmond."

I mean...Microsoft may be evil...but Apple has been even more evil for years now...and they don't even have a monopoly (I don't want to imagine what would happen if they had one)

1) Talk about vendor lock in...
2) Dumb apple fanatics angry mobs.
3) Apple making the world believe that their products are the best when the world has known better products for years...

Come on Apple...every decent PDA (eventually coupled with phone capabilities) has been able to
do more than the sum of the ipod video and the iphone
for years (a decade ?)

And can you read .ogg (or .flac or .wmv or whatever ) with your ipod now ? (talk about codecs...)

4) Nobody can criticize Apple :
If you hate Apple, you have no credibility
If you love apple, you speak Heresy
If you don't care about Apple and speak abjectively, you know nothing about Apple...

Man...just make Steve Jobs into a god and start a damn religion...It'll be easier to understand...

Reply Score: 4

Business wise...
by Ressev on Tue 25th Sep 2007 23:07 UTC
Ressev
Member since:
2005-07-18

...intentionally harming the consumer is unwise. The user is responsible for the damage they inflict on their iPhone by violating the user agreement/contract. Yes, the contract is limiting, but the user did agree to it. It is not as if there are other mobile phones that can text, play music, play video, make calls, or do wi-fi so comparing this to a Microsoft EULA would be pointless. The main think the iPhone has going for it is the basic stock storage being in the gigabytes. I don't know of any other mobile phone that comes close in terms of storage capacity.

...I think Apple made a mistke and will continue to make one if they keep the iPhone and iTouch out of reach of legal 3rd party aps. Both devices would flourish quite well if 3rd parties were allowed to freely write aps for them. Having a graffiti interface programed for the iPhone/iTouch as well as some music applications for creating music on the go would be very nice imho.

edit: it occurs to me that a possible point of locking out 3rd parties is to lock in additional revenue streams by offering for sale programs that expand the functionality.

Edited 2007-09-25 23:10

Reply Score: 1

Who bought it should've known
by Extreme Coder on Tue 25th Sep 2007 23:08 UTC
Extreme Coder
Member since:
2007-07-26

IMO, everyone who's pissed at Apple now deserves it, they should've known that they were buying a phone that's so limited on the software side, and was designed to be a fancy phone, not a feature phone.

Reply Score: 1

digitaldisaster Member since:
2006-01-02

The thing is, the kind of people that have hacked the iPhone either to get it unlocked or to install their own software on it are exactly the kind of people that understood that it is a locked platofrm and what the potential consequences are.

Reply Score: 1

Palm Treo Rocks on...
by Damind on Tue 25th Sep 2007 23:45 UTC
Damind
Member since:
2006-06-08

I have an unlocked AT&T treo and I get support from Palm for it. When I dropped it and called palm abou it they helped me and replaced it. They replaced it with an other AT&T locked phone which I had to unlock again. Palm updates it firmware and it does not have it's customers their phone may be broken and we will not support as a result and palm have thousands of third part apps for there phones. When you make a product like this you know people will want to extend it in their own way. why not make it easy for this to happen with you breaking the device when you the manufacture need to make a fix or your own improvements.

I will for ever love my treo, I await the arrival of the Linux based version from palm. Just remember 99% of the things the Iphone can do so can the treo in it's current stat. Why should I buy the iPhone again? Oh by the why it plays all of my MP3 and it even stream music from online radio it even streams video too. Oh let me stop. Don't like what they are doing stop buying them. Buy OPEN or things that are as close to OPEN as it gets.

Reply Score: 4

_yc_
Member since:
2007-04-03

These folks are purposely breaking a software license agreement and are helping others to break the law too.

People who hacked their iPhones have no one to blame but themselves and the iPhoneDev Team. The owners should sue anyone who sold and/or published the iPhone Hacks.

ciao
yc

Reply Score: 1

boycott?
by jessta on Wed 26th Sep 2007 01:11 UTC
jessta
Member since:
2005-08-17

if some one actually brought an Iphone than they had already choosen to be subservant to Apple.
I can't imagine these people participanting in an apple boycott.

Apple is the king of vendor lock in. At least microsoft gives you some choice in the hardware you use.

Reply Score: 4

v Linux Geeks don't like Apple
by powderblue on Wed 26th Sep 2007 02:22 UTC
Won't Boycott them
by MacGod on Wed 26th Sep 2007 02:40 UTC
MacGod
Member since:
2006-03-24

I bought the phone knowing the limitations, the features - I have no need to unlock it - people are just itching to be dumb about their devices and they think that they should be able to play around with them anyway they want and modify them and then the company have to support these changes.

I don't agree with a majority of the complainers out there.

I don't agree with FunkyELF - I don't see myself as a sheep - I see myself as supporting Apple and their commitment to a great product. I like the iPod and the iPhone is a naturual cohesive extension of the iPod.

It has a great deal of functionality and usefullness and it could be better in some areas.

Bottom line is this - if you 'modify' your PC system, your iPod, your iPhone - and the company that supports issues a new update that may 'cripple' it, don't come crying to Apple - that is a sheep.

I bought it - I use it - and my iPhone will upgrade effortlessly when the new firmware patch comes out.

Haters need not apply.
Peace

Reply Score: 3

Jedi mind trick...
by wakeupneo on Wed 26th Sep 2007 05:07 UTC
wakeupneo
Member since:
2005-07-06

Man with unlocked iPhone updates to the latest version of the firmware. Phone shuts down after update and won't restart. Bricked.

Man goes to Apple store with dead phone...

Man: "Hello...I just updated my iPhone but now it won't start"

Apple Employee: "You must have unlocked it"

Man: "No i didn't"

Apple Employee: "Maybe you didn't. Here's a replacement"

...but seriously, how are they going to know whether it was bricked by the update or because it was previously unlocked? And are they really prepared to openly call the customer a liar? Start a fight? Start an investigation? Doubt it...storm in a teacup...

Reply Score: 1

OSNews... where is the OS in this news?
by i386 on Wed 26th Sep 2007 05:18 UTC
i386
Member since:
2006-07-11

Could the editors please get back to writing about Operating System news?

Following the "LOL LOL LOL!!11 iPhone hax" news is boring, unorgional, not within the scope of this site and most certainly carried by other more general news sites.

Reply Score: 0

Misplaced trust
by Laurence on Wed 26th Sep 2007 08:04 UTC
Laurence
Member since:
2007-03-26

This whole "Steve said he won't deliberately break modded iPhones so I trust him" argument is a little naive imo.

Officially he may say he's not intending to brick the iPhone however that's just a smokescreen so that patches that /were/ intended to break extended functionality can be blamed on accident.

After all, who can prove him wrong? A court of law? We all know how lengthy and often ineffective those have turned out to be in these sorts of cases.
The source isn't out there and Apple don't have to prove their patches intentions.

Steves already expressed a wish to throw as many obstacles in the way of those demanding greater freedom with their sleek but ultimately crippled piece of cr*p so I sure as hell wont take Steves word for it that aforementioned updates weren't intended to have adverse reactions to patched phones.

Reply Score: 3

I don't get it
by nevali on Wed 26th Sep 2007 08:18 UTC
nevali
Member since:
2006-10-12

Half the people here clearly don't have an iPhone and never had any intention of buying one, but still bitch and moan about how it's not fair that modifying the damned thing might cause breakage at the next firmware update.

Those that do own iPhones, if you bought it with the intention of hacking the thing, then you've got nobody to blame but yourself. Nobody claimed you'd be able to (quite the opposite in fact), and nobody claimed it would continue to work long-term. You knew it could break to any degree when you started hacking it.

Reply Score: 3

RE: I don't get it
by Laurence on Wed 26th Sep 2007 09:08 UTC in reply to "I don't get it"
Laurence Member since:
2007-03-26

"Half the people here clearly don't have an iPhone and never had any intention of buying one, but still bitch and moan about how it's not fair that modifying the damned thing might cause breakage at the next firmware update.

Those that do own iPhones, if you bought it with the intention of hacking the thing, then you've got nobody to blame but yourself. Nobody claimed you'd be able to (quite the opposite in fact), and nobody claimed it would continue to work long-term. You knew it could break to any degree when you started hacking it."


It's the principle of it though. You don't have to have an iPhone to disagree with Apples actions. To use an example: Long term Linux users are constantly bitching on about how insecure Windows is - are they not entitled to their opinion on OS security either because they do not run Windows?

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: I don't get it
by nevali on Wed 26th Sep 2007 09:14 UTC in reply to "RE: I don't get it"
nevali Member since:
2006-10-12

If they've never used or actually examined Windows in depth, their opinions are based purely on hearsay, and so would be somewhat worthless.

It's not especially comparable, though. BMW would tell you the same thing about unauthorised engine modifications as Apple has regarding the iPhone. Sony would say much the same about the firmware in one of their DVD players. It's an embedded system; you're not supposed to dick around with itnot because it's naughty, but because it's very like to break. Knowing that is a prerequisite of doing it.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: I don't get it
by Laurence on Thu 27th Sep 2007 07:27 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: I don't get it"
Laurence Member since:
2007-03-26

"If they've never used or actually examined Windows in depth, their opinions are based purely on hearsay, and so would be somewhat worthless.

It's not especially comparable, though. BMW would tell you the same thing about unauthorised engine modifications as Apple has regarding the iPhone. Sony would say much the same about the firmware in one of their DVD players. It's an embedded system; you're not supposed to dick around with itnot because it's naughty, but because it's very like to break. Knowing that is a prerequisite of doing it."


It's is ENTIRELY comparable because the iPhone is not a standard embedded system. It's a smart phone. Smart phones are designed to be "dicked" around with (to use your own terminology). If someone brought an XDA then was told they weren't allowed to load their own applications on there there, they'd feel pretty damn cheated. So why should the iPhone be any different?

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: I don't get it
by nevali on Thu 27th Sep 2007 07:31 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: I don't get it"
nevali Member since:
2006-10-12

It's is ENTIRELY comparable because the iPhone is not a standard embedded system. It's a smart phone. Smart phones are designed to be "dicked" around with (to use your own terminology). If someone brought an XDA then was told they weren't allowed to load their own applications on there there, they'd feel pretty damn cheated. So why should the iPhone be any different?


Um, the iPhone isn't designed to be dicked around with. If somebody bought an XDA knowing in advance they couldn't load applications onto it and felt cheated by that, they're nothing short of a complete moron.

Just because many allow installation of third-party software doesn't mean all must be, that's just your entirely arbitrary definition. If you want a phone you can mess with the firmware of, you go and buy one, you don't bitch and moan when you buy one that isn't and discover you can't. That's just retarded.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: I don't get it
by Laurence on Thu 27th Sep 2007 07:42 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: I don't get it"
Laurence Member since:
2007-03-26

"Um, the iPhone isn't designed to be dicked around with. If somebody bought an XDA knowing in advance they couldn't load applications onto it and felt cheated by that, they're nothing short of a complete moron.

Just because many allow installation of third-party software doesn't mean all must be, that's just your entirely arbitrary definition. If you want a phone you can mess with the firmware of, you go and buy one, you don't bitch and moan when you buy one that isn't and discover you can't. That's just retarded."


So what's a point of a SMART phone that isn't very /smart/ then?

What I really don't get is why people are defending such a backwards device.
The technology was already a couple of years old even before the launch. The device is locked down and hardly versatile at all. It's expensive AND you get threatened by Steve Jobs for even considering using software that Apple isn't directly getting a cut from.

It's day light robbery and I personally think the 'retarded' ones are the ones who think they're getting a good deal out of all of this. If this was a Microsoft product then you'd be screaming 'burn the witch'. ;-)

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: I don't get it
by nevali on Thu 27th Sep 2007 08:11 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: I don't get it"
nevali Member since:
2006-10-12


So what's a point of a SMART phone that isn't very /smart/ then?

What I really don't get is why people are defending such a backwards device.
The technology was already a couple of years old even before the launch. The device is locked down and hardly versatile at all. It's expensive AND you get threatened by Steve Jobs for even considering using software that Apple isn't directly getting a cut from.

It's day light robbery and I personally think the 'retarded' ones are the ones who think they're getting a good deal out of all of this. If this was a Microsoft product then you'd be screaming 'burn the witch'. ;-)


A product doesn't have to be infinitely customisable to be useful or smart or enjoyable to usesomething sorely lacking in most products just now.

The rest of your comment was sheer bullshit. Steve Jobs, despite the somewhat bizarre interpretation you seem to hold, didn't threaten anybody. And you know what? If it was a Microsoft thing, people would be saying the exact same thing: if you don't like it, don't buy it.

It really is that simple.

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: I don't get it
by Laurence on Thu 27th Sep 2007 11:19 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: I don't get it"
Laurence Member since:
2007-03-26

"The rest of your comment was sheer bullshit. Steve Jobs, despite the somewhat bizarre interpretation you seem to hold, didn't threaten anybody. "


So his original statement that the patches /WOULD/ be designed to break modded iPhones wasn't threatening at all? (He did originally say that. He may have since changed his statement but he did originally say that) Hardly bullshi*t in my opinion but maybe you use a different dictionary to me ;-) (or completely glossed over Steves original press release)

"And you know what? If it was a Microsoft thing, people would be saying the exact same thing: if you don't like it, don't buy it. It really is that simple."


It's not that simple though. Us geeks know the whats-what of IT but the average Jo in the street may not. Should they suffer because the informed choose to turn a blind eye to anti-competitive business practices?

I think the whole put-up or shut-up argument that youre presenting is a bit selfish and more than a little short-sighted.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: I don't get it
by Soulbender on Wed 26th Sep 2007 10:54 UTC in reply to "RE: I don't get it"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

"You don't have to have an iPhone to disagree with Apples actions. "

I don't see how you *can* disagree. If you have hacked the phone you have effectively rendered any warranty void and null. I doubt Apple could be held legally required to support those phones and make sure upgrades don't break them.
You've screwed with the product in unsupported and unpredictable ways so don't come crying if it breaks.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: I don't get it
by Laurence on Wed 26th Sep 2007 12:53 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: I don't get it"
Laurence Member since:
2007-03-26

""You don't have to have an iPhone to disagree with Apples actions. "

I don't see how you *can* disagree. If you have hacked the phone you have effectively rendered any warranty void and null. I doubt Apple could be held legally required to support those phones and make sure upgrades don't break them.
You've screwed with the product in unsupported and unpredictable ways so don't come crying if it breaks."


That's all very good and well /IF/ the patch accidently breaks modded phones. Steve originally suggested (though now his PR crew have stepped in and changed their story a little) that they would /deliberately/ break moddeded phones.

That's basically saying: "you've brought our hardware and now you have to use it /exactly/ as we specify and with /exactly/ the companies and software you choose".
That to me is no different to some of the actions that landed Microsoft in a whole heat of trouble.

What I (and many others in this thread) disagree with is the way how Apple force users to be locked into their software and external corperate partners. No other (smart)phone forces users to use only their software (Sony Erricson phones for example have excellent 3rd party java applet support)

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: I don't get it
by Soulbender on Wed 26th Sep 2007 13:13 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: I don't get it"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Steve originally suggested (though now his PR crew have stepped in and changed their story a little) that they would /deliberately/ break moddeded phones.


Granted, that could be somewhat in a grey area but at least they gave an advance warning so that you can avoid it.

That's basically saying: "you've brought our hardware and now you have to use it /exactly/ as we specify and with /exactly/ the companies and software you choose".


Sure, if you want your warranty.

What I (and many others in this thread) disagree with is the way how Apple force users to be locked into their software and external corperate partners.


So, uh, don't buy it. That's the best incentive for them to change. It's not like there isn't a plethora of better and readily available alternatives. Support the vendor who makes products you like.

Edited 2007-09-26 13:18

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: I don't get it
by Laurence on Wed 26th Sep 2007 13:23 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: I don't get it"
Laurence Member since:
2007-03-26

"So, uh, don't buy it. That's the best incentive for them to change. It's not like there isn't a plethora of better and readily available alternatives. Support the vendor who makes products you like. "


That's exactly that I have done ;-)

However there's still the principle of Apples actions. This whole "you don't have to buy it" et al doesn't change the morality of Apples actions. They are in the wrong - clear and simple.

Reply Score: 2

lol
by tuzor on Wed 26th Sep 2007 09:17 UTC
tuzor
Member since:
2007-08-07

I think apple bashers just found an excuse to bash Apple without really having a case. Apple is not purposely going to harm hacked iPhones. Regardless the bashers still find the opportunity to post it in titles on OSnews and other sites.

I remember a friend of mine unlocking his Sony Ericsson phone. He then had some hardware problem, took it for service but his guarantee was broken and he had to pay for the faulty phone because he had unlocked the SIM. Why should the iPhone be any different ?

Reply Score: 3

... and this is news?
by deathshadow on Wed 26th Sep 2007 11:28 UTC
deathshadow
Member since:
2005-07-12

Apple's 'our way or the highway' policy towards just about everything since the original Mac came out is hardly new. Goes hand in hand with their rewriting their own history in the 90's and why despite all the hype and marketing they are STILL little more than an 'also ran' in the computer industry.

I'm just surprised it took this long for them to start locking down the iPhone.

Reply Score: 0

RE: ... and this is news?
by VManOfMana on Wed 26th Sep 2007 12:57 UTC in reply to "... and this is news?"
VManOfMana Member since:
2006-11-01

"Apple's 'our way or the highway' policy towards just about everything since the original Mac came out is hardly new."

It is interesting how you can apply the same term (our way or the highway) to those who modified iPhone and then complain.

Reply Score: 1

hartvig
Member since:
2007-04-25

Yes, the lock down of the iPhone sucks.

However, if you take it upon yourself to change the software install of your device (in this case, the iPhone) and you have NO way of reinstalling the original software from scratch, then you can not claim you are innocent if a future software upgrade based on the ORIGINAL software does not work.

In fact, Apple did not need to even warn about this - consider it a service that they DID warn people with hacked iPhones about this. Most companies that produce phones or other hardware (routers comes to mind) do not warn about this, neither do they have to.

Think of all the routers out there with linux firmwares on. If you brick one of these by installing an incorrect firmware you are on your own. You just lost your router, unless you can figure out how to fix it on your own *OR* pay the company that sold you the router to do it.

Its the exact same thing with the iPhone. If you mess around with it and brick it, tough luck. You might be lucky that you can fix it yourself or pay someone (Apple) to fix it for you if this happens, but if that is not the case, *YOU* just bricked your iPhone and that's only your *OWN* fault, not Apple's.

Reply Score: 1

iPhone - Lock or Unlock
by wizzard on Wed 26th Sep 2007 16:10 UTC
wizzard
Member since:
2005-06-30

I am located in Canada and would really like an iPhone, however, it is not available. I have alternatives of getting an activation in the US with a US iPhone or in the UK with a O2 iphone. Until the iPhone comes to Canada, it is simple as that.
Apple released the iphone with all conditions known; they did not hide anything.
Now we have hackers opening it up which in most countries for personal use might be just fine.
Hacking a device voids the warranty and this too is explained in Apples information. You know you do know the implications of hacking it.
It seems really incredible, foolhardy, and pig headed for all these comments about boycotting Apple about this. This released a device based on their marketing plan. While the folks that may not be able to get the device may be disappointed but you can not blame Apple - this is a company discussion based on what ever rational. It may not make sense to most but it is their company, their device, etc, etc.
All the complaints from folks makes it seem like it is your personal property and that Apple is violating some personal agreement with you. How untrue and silly of all of us to think that it is our creation.
Apple, at the product creator and owner, has a right to update their product how they see fit and in what matter they see fit. If you don't like the product, the warranty, the support, etc please do not buy the product. If sales are done, maybe they might listen and make changes or make it available to you in your own country.
BUT - please stop complaining like it is your creation and the Apple has to bow to you. All pertainent information has been provided. Apple is not hiding anything. It has always been understood that if you hack there are risks. You hack and accept based on those risks.
So please stop whining and calling for boycotts as this is silly, stupid, and shortsighted. It is not your device, you did not create it, so shut up. Don't buy it if you are unhappy. You have ever right to be disappointed (like me) that it may not be available in your country but again you can not blame Apple.
Maybe you should focus your outrage to other issues that plague the world (like hunger, war, poverty, etc, etc) instead of trying to justify to the world via stupid actions that each of you personal own the Apple design and that it is in your power to control what Apple does with their device. So stupid that you have allowed your pent up greed and averous nature to cloud your judgment.

1. It is Apples device.
2. Don't buy it if you don't like it or the policy under how it is released. Maybe by lack of sales will convince Apple to listen. But by the sales, it seems that you are like lemmings, you fall head first, then you whine about it after. Being on the bleeding edge is always like this BUT you placed yourself there - not Apple. Sell your Apple stock if you must but then you are probably making too much on it.
3. If you hack it, don't complain to Apple when they update it for added benefit to the folks that actually like it or to remove hacks which is their right. Hacks do not have guarantee - if they did Apple would provide it.
4. Write emails to Apple asking to release it in your country and be patient.
5. Ask yourself the question - who gave you any rights over this - none certainly by buying the iphone. Read the fine print.
6. Grow up and maybe concentrate on solving real world issues.

I will remain patient, sending emails and waiting for the iphone to come to Canada.

Reply Score: 5

Boycot??
by TechBuzz on Wed 26th Sep 2007 16:26 UTC
TechBuzz
Member since:
2007-09-26

My sediments exactly:

"so if you want to boycot don't buy it in the first place"

Reply Score: 1

Having ones cake and eating it!
by siraf72 on Wed 26th Sep 2007 17:01 UTC
siraf72
Member since:
2006-02-22

I would have thought that ANYONE who hacks a device knows that you forfeit future support for that device. I really don't get why people are upset about this. Is it because they happen to be Apple devices?

Also, anyone who thinks apple will go out of its way to cripple iPhones should have his head examined.

Reply Score: 2

Apple products = badly over-priced garbage
by JeffS on Thu 27th Sep 2007 06:11 UTC
JeffS
Member since:
2005-07-12

I can't believe people are actually stupid enough to buy Apple products.

Don't get me wrong - I'd like to like Apple products - there actually is some innovation here and there.

It's just that their stuff is so badly over priced, it's laughable.

And their products are completely locked down.

I actually considered buying an iPod last year, until I learned that the car power adapter cost $60, while car power adapters for every other product on the planet costs $10-15, including similar products that have the same features and cost about half as much.

But people are still buying it. I guess there always suckers willing to fall for the slick silver-tongued persuasion of snake-oil salesmen, which is exactly what Steve Jobs is.

And add to that Apple's full on hostility towards it's own loyal customers and fan base.

Reply Score: 3

Laurence Member since:
2007-03-26

"But people are still buying it. I guess there always suckers willing to fall for the slick silver-tongued persuasion of snake-oil salesmen, which is exactly what Steve Jobs is. "


How to be Steve Jobs in 3 easy steps:
1/ Take an existing device, tweak the interface a little and then seal it in a single shaded plastic
2/ Stick the letter 'i' in front of the product name
3/ Reference your new product to witchcraft / 7 wonders of the world / alien technology

now watch as the stupid flock to your product like moths to a flame (and literally getting burnt in the process).

Reply Score: 1

lol
by Duffman on Thu 27th Sep 2007 06:56 UTC
Duffman
Member since:
2005-11-23

"one blogger suggests sending an even stronger message to Apple by boycotting Apple on October 1"

So now, if any john doe says something on his blog, it will have an article on OSnews. OSnews article quality is improving each day ...

Reply Score: 2