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haha 10 Roberts, thats a scary thought!

i have a feel that it would be more arguing then coding then...

...Or what the millions in the FOSS community are doing

"i have a feel that it would be more arguing then coding then..."
"...Or what the millions in the FOSS community are doing"

I don't agree with you.Linux kernel development is going faster than ever.Its true that sometimes skirmishes among developers boil over the line and make headlines everywhere.But thats the OSS way

Linux development may be going fast, but nowhere near as fast as the one man SkyOS. The origional poster chose to make a pretty lame joke (right up there with putting a $ in MS), even though FOSS software has exponentially more devs working on it.

"FOSS software has exponentially more devs working on it."

How many of them work 50+ hour weeks, though?

Edited 2007-10-10 15:30

considering the commercial support linux has nowadays, I would say a few hundred thousand. More manpower then MS has at any which was the point of the joke

And you would be very, very wrong.

Unless, of course, you meant to say "a few hundred or a thousand".

Source? You have no idea how many devs are working on OSS. And OSS covers all software, which is so much more than all of Microsoft's creations, let alone SkyOS.

Yes, what Robert is doing with SkyOS is amazing, but comparing it to the output of other OSS developers is silly. You have no basis for comparison. Is it lines of code? Features? Usefullness? I suspect you've never worked on a big software project before. As the project gets bigger and more mature, large changes require more effort. SkyOS is in the unique situation that it's basically written by one man, so there is complete knowledge of the code, and not really any backwards compatibility concerns, or massive numbers of users that will notice regressions. The two projects are so different you can't really make any comparisons between them.

>> As the project gets bigger and more mature, large changes require more effort. SkyOS is in the unique situation that it's basically written by one man, so there is complete knowledge of the code, and not really any backwards compatibility concerns, or massive numbers of users that will notice regressions.

I completely agree with that. It takes much more time and effort to change huge or well established software projects, especially if multiple developers around the world are working on it, where you have to spend a good amount of time with communication, coordination and optionally learning/debugging through foreign code.

Really? So you can make comparisons and crude jokes about vista, and thats ok, but when you mention linux (WITHOUT the gradeschool humor i might add), which while it may not have millions, but at LEAST more then the windows people working on it, people start flipping out.

And of course you can make comparisons. Just because different coding methodologies are being used, doesnt mean that they are incomparable, just that they have different strengths. SkyOS is a heck of an accomplishment, no matter which way you slice it, and just because it is a propriatary system done by one guy doesnt mean it is some alien life form, formed in some completely different way from everything else.

Yes, I have worked (and helped manage) large projects before. Not to the level of something like linux, but large. The reason that comparing stuff like windows or linux to something like sky is almost embarrassing is that there is no focus in either. Robert is out to make a good DESKTOP os, instead of doing a billion things poorly, he is doing one thing well. That kind of focus means that certain kinds of tradeoffs (like the age old throughput vs latency) are complete non-issues, and there is alot of work that simply doesnt even need to be done. MS and Linux do one os (with different configurations) for everything, from supercomputers servers to office workstations to home desktops to gaming platforms to mobile devices. I grew up on MacOS classic, which to this day was the most elegant single purpose OS I have ever used, and other then Be, that kind of design methodology has been completely replaced by a one size fits all mentality.

Anyways, sorry for the troll, I just like watching all the lusers (get it? almost as clever as Fista, don't you think?) flip out once in awhile.

SkyOS is ... basically written by one man, so there is complete knowledge of the code,...

That's a key point. Multiple developers have to constantly be learning what the others have done. And even then, there may be lots of duplication of effort. But if one guy wrote the substantial portion, he already knows the issues that affect his efforts. And he doesn't have to try to convince the other developers that the way he wants to do it is the best.

Yes, what Robert is doing with SkyOS is amazing, but comparing it to the output of other OSS developers is silly.

It certainly is, given SkyOS is not OSS--Open Source Software...

--bornagainpenguin

I totally disagree, of course.
A modern Linux distro supports virtually all hardware out of the box, it has several thousands applications, Wine, Crossover an Cedega have gone a looong way in supporting Windows applications...

Less is more!

Proving the law of diminishing returns.

Exactly. A few years ago OSNews IIRC posted a story on an MS coder that spent a few years there and he detailed his time spent on one ever so tiny detail of the new Start Menu for the original Vista. After all that work it wasn't even included. Much of the engineering world is like that, unused effort, too many meetings.

The only really interesting software projects are precisely these mini OSes where the whole scope of it can be understood by their principals, SkyOS, Syllable, Haiku etc.

If I understand it, Robert is SkyOS's head coder and Benevolent-Dictator-For-Life, but he doesn't quite work alone.

Unless, of course, every other developer account making system development posts on the SkyOS site are in fact aliases of Robert...

Well, to be fair to Microsoft, MS's developers are divided among about (literally) 1000 distinct projects... OSs (with lots of sub-projects) and office suites (with lots of sub-projects) and ERP suites (with lots of sub-projects) and games and video games and game system firmware and the entire "five years of free support for all products" thing.

The SkyOS team is pretty much equivalent to an elite coding team within Microsoft, and they have the luxury of designing from scratch and still knowing everyone on a first-name basis, instead of coding to support a previous team's work. That entire "it's done when it's done" mentality saves the SkyOS team a lot, too (and it doesn't scale up: just look at Microsoft after all the Vista delays).

Syllable has been in beta for years as well, as well as other OSes.

I think Syllable is still in alpha, not beta.
Skyos looks not so bad from the screenshots, but on a modest pc I think it's a little slow. As I can remember I thik it needs a lot of resources compared to syllable.
I must admit that the amount of work that robert put in it is very impressive. Perhaps he`s a robot and not a human ;-)

Lots of debugging and unoptimized code running in SkyOS. Remove that, and it is much, much faster.

The dev guys say that's mostly down to the debugging code left in during SkyOS's beta releases. I think it should be safe to assume that the final release will be much nippier.

Syllable also doesn't cost me anything to beta test it on my hardware, doesn't pretend it will be done RSN, doesn't pretend to have created everything (minus SkyOS of course...) from the coding of one man--50+ hour work weeks aside...need I go on?

--bornagainpenguin

No-one is forcing you to buy in to the beta.

Agreed with this one. Of course, it's Robert's baby and I respect his decisions (his call, not mine or anyone else's) but I do agree that working towards something like a 0.5 release, including the live CD promised for ages now, would surely attract a whole lot more attention than these betas that come out every once in a while.

But hey, that's just me. It's not like I write operating systems from scratch on a regular basis .

You mean the LiveCD which is available for months already?

You guys promised a live CD released to the general public (so not just beta team members). That's what I'm referring to.

Sorry, that was probably me. I think back in January I put it as one of my predictions. I got it about halfway right; we do have a LiveCD, but unfortunately, we're still not at a point where we want it to go out yet.

We have been testing a version of the liveCD that is supposed to become the public version in the end but that's currently on hold for a few reasons. The liveCD has proven to be a very nice way to try and install skyos so the public livecd should come eventually.

None. It has skyfs, which is a modified OpenBFS which is under the MIT license.

Unless you include userland utils such as Bash, then it does and the source to Robert's changes are on the website.

how about a usb stack and a tcp/ip stack, are they also written by him?

Not to mention the font renderer which clearly looks a lot like FreeType. I don't think that it is as black and white as some people paint it to be. Robert probably picked some stuff here and there where the license was more permissive (such as BSD, MIT and to a lesser extent LGPL) and added into his code. And that's fine as these pieces of software are intended to be used this way.

However, I don't want to start yet another flamewar regarding GPL code in SkyOS as I have yet to see any evidence that backs up such assertion and it has been debated to death anyway...

Then why even post it? You have no evidence, only speculation. Robert says he did these thigns from scratch and unless you have proof otherwise, you have to take his word for it. It's his code.

Every time SkyOS comes up, people post the same thing and get the same answers.

Well, I am just saying. I don't think that it is feasible for just one man to be knowledgeable on everything about USB stacks, TrueType font renderers with anti-aliasing support and TCP/IP stacks and implement on his hobby OS when everybody else is putting literally thousands of man-hours of effort into these projects alone. I don't think that even Andy Tanenbaum covers such subjects in details in his books.

I am more likely to believe that he borrowed some code from here and there where the license is more permissive than the GPL and that I believe that he is doing a great job incorporating it in his OS, where it feels nicely integrated. My point was that I have yet to see any evidence that shows that Robert used GPL code in his project as it always come up in SkyOS threads here.

No need to get the torchs and pitchforks yet!

Please note that I don't want to belittle Robert's accomplishments either. Robert truly is a code machine as far as I am concerned...

Edited 2007-10-10 16:33

He writes software for embedded systems at a company that specializes in automation in his real job. He knows a thing or two about OS development.

Every time SkyOS comes up, people post the same thing and get the same answers.

Don't you mean lack of answers and an invitation to pay for vaporware?

--bornagainpenguin

EDIT--Reposted deue to imprper moding and no responses. The rules say you're supposed to reply not moderate down to oblivion anyone with whom you disagree with... And I challenge people to show me where I've spammed or used improper language in this post!

Edited 2007-10-11 13:57

I'm not even going to guess why you were modded down, but you were wrong on both points.

On lack of answers: the developers have been remarkably open, not only to the general public but to the preview team. We can ask "Hey Robert, how is X going?" or "What are you doing about Y?" and actually expect to get an answer. Kelly and the pseudonymous "Darkness" are the ones who answer most often (and you see that here on OSNews, too...).

On 'vaporware': the preview builds we are given access to are generally the same builds that the SkyOS team and the developers are doing their work on -- so we can actually go out and download the next version and work with the changes that have been made.

Not improper. You're an ass, and it's an ass thing to say.

Moreover, sir, which indeed is not under white and black, this plaintiff here, the offender, did call me ass: I beseech you, let it be remembered in his punishment.
--Much Ado About Nothing - Act 5 by William Shakespeare

Levity aside, what have I said to warrant such treatment?

I said there have been few answers with much controversy over the development of this OS. Have I lied? If I have then why do we have so many threads like this one every time the perpetual beta is hyped on OSNews?

I have also labeled the Final release of SkyOS R5 to be vapoorware...Hmmm...

Here's the definition used by Dictionary.com:
Computer Slang. a product, esp. software, that is promoted or marketed while it is still in development and that may never be produced.

Sounds about right, doesn't it? SkyOS has been marketed and is being promoted while still in development and given it's closed source nature and the fact it is mostly the brainchild of one person who may or may not disappear tomorrow it indeed may never be released as a final product. Yup! That sounds like vaporware to me!

...now who's the ass?

--bornagainpenguin

who said it is vaporware?
There are actual releases that you get to use.

There are actual releases that you get to use.

WHO gets to use?

--bornagainpenguin

Yes, from scratch by him.

And I have a gift for writing comments that get modded down, and accused of trolling, when most of the time I'm only pointing out the faults of the zealots.

But hey, who needs facts when you have blind regurgitated beliefs?

Anyhow, yeah, you could write a bot. All you have to say is "GPL violation" somewhere in there.

You don't "have" to. It's your choice not to participate in the beta program or not.

You should have to do whatever the software author requires of you. How do you suppose he's going to finance this ongoing development?

Just put up or shut up. It's like a broken record in here.

You're nuts. It's akin to paying for AROS. Looks pretty but has almost zero app support.

What you're saying is true in a lot of respects: many of the project's regulars have found other interests or flat out stopped posting in the last year, and the community has very few if any left.

However, the magic of SkyOS is that it doesn't matter. Robert gets little benefit from having a core of die-hard SkyOS fans. As long as people are reporting bugs and downloading the latest ISOs, the community fulfills its duty.

Maybe the community is stagnant right now. But it doesn't matter, trust me. SkyOS itself is as alive as ever.

Edited 2007-10-11 17:34 UTC

I guess your definition of dead is different from mine, then.

A revamped UI is in the works, for the third time in its history. In a month or two SkyOS will seem shiny and "alive" again.

Really, what good is a UI redesign if you can't even use the OS. No wireless support, no 3d acceleration, barely any Ethernet cards, and lets not get started on sound. It even fails to run on many virtual machines, for instance, Qemu and KVM. Making things "pretty" is not what SkyOS needs. Look at Ubuntu, they managed to get millions of users with a feces-like brown theme.

Actually, in the last year he has been doing exactly what you're asking for: cleaning up and profiling code. It's much faster compared to builds from a few years ago; the startup time for apps like Firefox has been cut dramatically. The C++ APIs are beautiful--check them out if you program. I've never had any problems using QEMU, and there are several instances I can find on the forum of people saying they're successfully using it. Drivers are admittedly bad, but most people can at least get it to run in Vesa, including myself on several non-targeted low and high end PCs.

I promise you development speed hasn't changed. Just because there's nothing flashy like a new port to announce doesn't mean important work isn't happening.

>> All that is left in the community is a bunch of zealots and in general weirdos with little technical or development experience and really have no interest in SkyOS but rather worship Robert.

You must have some serious problems man. Isn't bashing SkyOS what you do for years already enough for you? You have to get personal now?
Critizice every part of SkyOS you want, to be honest, I don't care what YOU have to say about it. (for others who don't know why I have this attitude to him, just read the recently posted SkyOS news, sirhomer had to say something about).
But, I tell you, stop to judge the SkyOS community because honestly, even the least informed comment from a SkyOS community member is much more worth than what you ever had to say about SkyOS.

And please, as I told you hundred of times already, lets stop this. (But I know you can't resist, so shoot)

I almost modded you up, but I didn't because I disagree that OSNews is a dying entity (prove that).

@Anonymous Penguin

OSNews used to be a much more lively place around 2005ish. Recently it's becoming more an aggregation of Digg's technology section. Just something I've noticed.

1) I don't read Digg, so it's kind of hard for me to aggregate it
2) This is off topic. If you want to piss on OSNews, do so via email.

I'm permanently idled on #skyos and #skyos_dev and your lucky to hear someone say something related to SkyOS once per week. I remember about two years ago the channel was buzzing with activity and so were the forums. Listen, I am not going to play the Monty Python routine with you zizban. "She's not dead, she's pinnin for the fjords!"

Edited 2007-10-11 17:27

There will be a demo liveCD out soon (no installation, use all you want). Other than that, you pretty much have to buy a copy.

I did, only to realize that it would have been much better donating the money to Oxfam.