Linked by Thom Holwerda on Wed 17th Oct 2007 22:22 UTC, submitted by diegocg
KDE The KDE Projects is announcing the third beta of its future KDE 4.0 platform. "This Beta has mostly been focussing on finalizing the design of the libraries in preparation for the release of the KDE Development Platform. Yet, many user-visible changes have gotten in as well. While new features and usability improvements were added, bugs were found and fixed in KDE and the stability of Beta 3 has improved much compared to the previous Betas. With the third Beta, the KDE project has begun to finalize KDE 4.0."
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Waiting for the final release...
by HangLoose on Wed 17th Oct 2007 22:33 UTC
HangLoose
Member since:
2007-09-03

Looks amazing all of the work done from the KDE guys.

It's noticeable the amount of work that they invested into this release. The dolphin file manager is going to be 2 steps to KDE in order of the other ones.

Even though Plasma is not one of my preferred features I wanna see what the community will bring to everybody.

One more time, congratulations KDE team.

Reply Score: 7

Finalizing design?
by Aragorn992 on Wed 17th Oct 2007 22:41 UTC
Aragorn992
Member since:
2007-05-27

Is it just me or does "finalizing the design of the libraries" sound very much like alpha type work rather than something that should belong in beta.

Betas are about bug fixing - not finalising design.

Seems to be a common theme in OSS these days is too push out new features ASAP, and imo is directly responsible for sub quality software. Especially when its for something as critical and ubquitous as a desktop environment.

Edited 2007-10-17 22:42

Reply Score: 6

RE: Finalizing design?
by porcel on Wed 17th Oct 2007 22:53 UTC in reply to "Finalizing design?"
porcel Member since:
2006-01-28

Nobody will be using KDE 4 for anything that matters for at least another twelve to eighteen months.

I am referring here to large school, government or corporate deployments. So even if they are still pushing the envelope technologically with KDE4, they have plenty of time to stabilize.

For the foreseeable future, kde 3.5.8 and greater will remain the desktop platform for serious deployments.

That may change eventually and I for one cannot wait to get my hands on the exciting KDE4 platform, but it will take a while to mature. Which is perfectly fine in my book.

Reply Score: 9

RE[2]: Finalizing design?
by tyrione on Thu 18th Oct 2007 00:12 UTC in reply to "RE: Finalizing design?"
tyrione Member since:
2005-11-21

Cut that time frame in half and you strengthen your views.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Finalizing design?
by Aragorn992 on Fri 19th Oct 2007 02:06 UTC in reply to "RE: Finalizing design?"
Aragorn992 Member since:
2007-05-27

Thats fine so why don't they refer to the release as an alpha? Its not really their strategy that bugs me its their terminology..

Reply Score: 2

RE: Finalizing design?
by anda_skoa on Wed 17th Oct 2007 23:01 UTC in reply to "Finalizing design?"
anda_skoa Member since:
2005-07-07

Is it just me or does "finalizing the design of the libraries" sound very much like alpha type work rather than something that should belong in beta.


The phrasing is probably not optimal. I basically means that the last portions of API cleanup had happened, not that totally new concepts were introduced.

A bit later the press release says "As the KDE libraries were in freeze for big additions since the first Beta, work was mostly focussing on fine-tuning and fixing everything."

Reply Score: 9

RE[2]: Finalizing design?
by yahya on Wed 17th Oct 2007 23:21 UTC in reply to "RE: Finalizing design?"
yahya Member since:
2007-03-29

Is it just me or does "finalizing the design of the libraries" sound very much like alpha type work rather than something that should belong in beta.

The phrasing is probably not optimal. I basically means that the last portions of API cleanup had happened, not that totally new concepts were introduced.


Whatever it means, at least all the KDE4 betas which I have tested so far, including Beta 2 which is part of Ubuntu Gutsy, felt very much like alpha quality software. They were not just buggy and unstable as hell but essential functionality was simply missing or totally broken.

However exciting the new feature may be, I don't think that premature status changes are helpful to their advance. If they really ship in January, they will sure ship an unfinished product.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Finalizing design?
by superstoned on Thu 18th Oct 2007 14:11 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Finalizing design?"
superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

I've been hearing that for quite a while now, and it's entirely unlike my experience with (self-compiled) KDE 4. Sure, it's not rockstable, and some day something works, another day it doesn't. And plasma of course has been horribly unstable. But most other things work pretty well. Most apps in KDEbase, kdegraphics, kdeedu, kdegames - actually, almost every app has been usable and rather stable for quite some time yet. So there must be problems with the Kubuntu packages, or you only tried the few things which aren't ready yet - like plasma.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Finalizing design?
by dylansmrjones on Wed 17th Oct 2007 23:24 UTC in reply to "Finalizing design?"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

No no no no.

Finalizing the design happens in the end, just before releasing the stable product.

You start by getting an idea, then you elaborate it, then you construct it and then you put it out in real world. These phases can either be hard phases (e.g. the Waterfall model which is a disaster) or they can be cyclic. The latter one is true for all variations of Agile Modeling (including AUP). Most of the design happens during elaboration ((pre-)alpha) but the finalizing happens during transition (the phase just before releasing the stable product).

Reply Score: 5

RE: Finalizing design?
by Soulbender on Thu 18th Oct 2007 04:26 UTC in reply to "Finalizing design?"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Is it just me or does "finalizing the design of the libraries" sound very much like alpha type work rather than something that should belong in beta.


It's just you.

Betas are about bug fixing - not finalising design.


It's about both.

Seems to be a common theme in OSS these days is too push out new features ASAP, and imo is directly responsible for sub quality software.


It's nice to know that OSS and closed-source software apparently has a common denominator.

Reply Score: 7

RE: Finalizing design?
by superstoned on Thu 18th Oct 2007 14:17 UTC in reply to "Finalizing design?"
superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

Seems to be a common theme in OSS these days is too push out new features ASAP, and imo is directly responsible for sub quality software. Especially when its for something as critical and ubquitous as a desktop environment.


It's not 'these days', it is just like it has always been. Release early and release often.

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: Finalizing design?
by Aragorn992 on Fri 19th Oct 2007 02:08 UTC in reply to "RE: Finalizing design?"
Aragorn992 Member since:
2007-05-27

For sure, but whats the problem releasing under the alias alpha instead of pretending you have beta quality?

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Finalizing design?
by superstoned on Fri 19th Oct 2007 09:47 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Finalizing design?"
superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

we HAVE beta quality, it is only plasma which isn't up to Beta right now. Almost all other apps are very usable. But because plasma is so visible, everyone who tried KDE 4 had a bad experience because they did nothing more than click around 2 minutes on plasma, concluded it sucked and they went to flame KDE on OSNews.

Reply Score: 6

Help is always welcome
by porcel on Wed 17th Oct 2007 22:55 UTC
porcel
Member since:
2006-01-28

One other things to add. If you really want to see KDE4 arrive sooner rather than later, lend a hand.

Code, translate, triage bugs, raise funds, donate hardware, do web development or promotion. There are a thousands ways to hone valuable skills while helping your favorite project move forward.

Reply Score: 8

this is it
by eMPee584 on Wed 17th Oct 2007 22:55 UTC
eMPee584
Member since:
2007-01-29

finally, the FOSS desktop. let's do this ;)

Reply Score: 4

Hope KDE4 force GNOME to do something
by STTS on Wed 17th Oct 2007 23:09 UTC
STTS
Member since:
2005-07-06

1GB RAM, radeon 9800 with xorg driver, OMG it 100 times faster then my old Celeron@300 128 mb + Matrox G200. But menu opening, terminal scrolling, moving mouse above controls that highlight as ugly slaggish as 5 years ago.

Font rendering is laughable, compare with http://antigrain.com/research/font_rasterization/index.html samples.

Please, KDE guys, make font rendering gamma- aware with sub pixel kerning, and I immediately switch from that archaic GTK world.

Reply Score: 1

siride Member since:
2006-01-02

KDE and GTK use the same font rendering engine, which is provided by the FreeType libraries, not the toolkit. You can enable subpixel rendering and all that other stuff, but you may have to tweak your ~/.fonts.conf

Reply Score: 6

boudewijn Member since:
2006-03-05

Weird... Do you really thing that GTK, which uses exactly the same font rendering library as Qt renders fonts differently? There may be different default freetype settings, like having kerning on or off, but
that's all. Every toolkit on X11 uses freetype. And no font current technology uses concepts from the antigrain website article.

Reply Score: 5

STTS Member since:
2005-07-06

I really know that parts of Xft/RENDER/Pango/GTK/freetype do render fonts, sure more than everybogy here, lookung my scorepoints down to 0, but obviously you do not. You assume there is some secret organizations force QT and GTK to use only that path? Thats the point, time to mature. 20 years old assumptions that every glyph is a just squarish box with integer aligned corners is wrong. Freetype guys do good work, but all other (GTK/Pango/Xft/RENDER) do not take patches that output gamma correct blending, subpixel accurate placement( kerning). And I hope that KDE devs do something with it.

Reply Score: 2

dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

And I hope that KDE devs do something with it.


With all your knowhow on Xft/RENDER/Pango/GTK/freetype etc. you sound just like the right man for the task. We're all behind you.

Reply Score: 5

superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

You assume there is some secret organizations force QT and GTK to use only that path?

Boudewijn doesn't asume anything, he knows - he's a rather prominent KDE developer. And KDE uses what is available - and freetype is the only real option on linux. If you go and develop a better alternative, chances are KDE will start to use it. Until then - freetype it is.

Don't expect KDE to start working on a font rendering infrastructure - that's by far not KDE's job. We don't develop drivers for the kernel or X either, we develop higher-level gui libraries and a desktop+applications. Trolltech, the Qt developers ARE involved in font rendering, a lot - the current Pango etc stuff is for a big part developed by them. If you want to improve upon that, go and contact the font ppl who work on that kind of stuff.

Reply Score: 5

anda_skoa Member since:
2005-07-07

...the current Pango etc stuff is for a big part developed by them...


I am not sure but I think you are mixing this up with Harfbuzz, the text layout engine, which is based on large Trolltech contributions.

Reply Score: 5

superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

sorry, yes, you're right...

Reply Score: 2

Disappointed with look & feel
by Joe User on Wed 17th Oct 2007 23:31 UTC
Joe User
Member since:
2005-06-29

Ok, this is still Beta, but...They changed the old (ugly and cold) look and feel, and the new one is different but...Still dull and cold. Widgets lack contrast and the overall colors lack life: http://kde.org/announcements/announce_4.0-beta3/edu_parley.png

Also why are the digits of the clock in the system tray struck through? This doesn't please me.

I'm confident they will address these problems.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Disappointed with look & feel
by backdoc on Thu 18th Oct 2007 01:33 UTC in reply to "Disappointed with look & feel"
backdoc Member since:
2006-01-14

Hmmm. I think it is looking beautiful. I agree that the 3.5x is tiring. But, this new stuff looks fresh and wonderful.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Disappointed with look & feel
by kejar31 on Thu 18th Oct 2007 02:01 UTC in reply to "Disappointed with look & feel"
kejar31 Member since:
2006-01-08

The digits in the clock are struck though because it is a flip digit clock design.

like this

http://www.zillion.co.nz/listing/4090719/viewphoto/283051/

Reply Score: 5

GeneralZod Member since:
2007-08-03

Also, IIRC, they plan to replace the default clock with a much simpler design at some point, so that it will be much clearer on a smaller panel.

Reply Score: 1

unoengborg Member since:
2005-07-06

The digits in the clock are struck though because it is a flip digit clock design.

Yes, but what's wrong with ordinary non flipping digits. There are no technical reasons for doing this on a computer screen, and this flip design is not common enough in real life to motivate doing it this way to help people identify it as a clock. It just makes it harder to read for people that is visually impaired.

It is also a matter of style, these flip clocks belonged to the 1970:s and 80:s, the rest of KDE 4 doesn't.

The question is should there really be a digital clock, analog clocks are much easier to read as they not only give you the actual time but also gives you a much better view of the time as an ongoing process.

Reply Score: 2

korpenkraxar Member since:
2005-09-10

I agree that the flipping digits design looks weird, like a bug almost. I contacted the artist and asked him to update it by not having a straight line gutting through all the digits but have it just so slightly tilted at each cut which in my mind would make it look a bit nicer, but he did not show much interested.

The problem with bringing real-world concepts and physical constraints into a computer GUI is that the have to be exaggerated and modified to fit the constraints and opportunities of the GUI. Flipping digits you say? Ok, so do they actually change by an animated flip? If no, drop them. If yes, reconsider as that can be highly disturbing.

Yes, I'm also looking you, you spinning desktop cube!

Reply Score: 2

superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

the flip thing is just a funny 'hey I can do this' thing, it will probably be replaced for 4.0 - or 4.1, then.

Reply Score: 2

anda_skoa Member since:
2005-07-07

Flipping digits you say? Ok, so do they actually change by an animated flip? If no, drop them. If yes, reconsider as that can be highly disturbing.


It is mainly a technology demonstrator, i.e. showing how to use SVG theming and animated state transitions with a very simple data source.

And it also serves as a nice show item.

An "all-day-long" type of clock will most certainly be visualised less intrusive.

Reply Score: 3

quenturi Member since:
2006-04-10

So the default clock in 3.5 was LCD, very 80's, now for 4.0 we'll have flip digit, 70's. Can't wait for KDE 5.0 lol

Note: for god sake get rid of those huge windows'borders. Vista is a plague. Since it's out, we got at least one per day at kde-look.org and even gnome-org for almost any existing window manager.

Reply Score: 1

smitty Member since:
2005-10-13

I'm pretty sure the clock looks like that because the plasma developers wanted to test out their animation framework, and it was about the only available plasmoid they had to test with at the time. I doubt it will be the default look, although they might keep it as an option.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Disappointed with look & feel
by TheMonoTone on Thu 18th Oct 2007 02:22 UTC in reply to "Disappointed with look & feel"
TheMonoTone Member since:
2006-01-01

The widgets to me actually look really nice. Pleasent to look at, pretty clear contrast now I'd say. I like the slight hints of color there too, not overdone like the crazy blue borders in 3.5 which aren't bad but very very bright which I dunno, it just gets tiring as a default pretty quick.

My only real complaint is the tiny window buttons.

Can I still slam my mouse in to the corner? Or will I have to carefully move my mouse over the button.

I like slamming my mouse to the corner... easier...

Reply Score: 3

RE: Disappointed with look & feel
by Laurence on Thu 18th Oct 2007 07:04 UTC in reply to "Disappointed with look & feel"
Laurence Member since:
2007-03-26

"Ok, this is still Beta, but...They changed the old (ugly and cold) look and feel, and the new one is different but...Still dull and cold. Widgets lack contrast and the overall colors lack life: http://kde.org/announcements/announce_4.0-beta3/edu_parley.png

Also why are the digits of the clock in the system tray struck through? This doesn't please me.

I'm confident they will address these problems."


It's not a problem, it's a theme. If you don't like it then change it

Reply Score: 3

live cd
by lqsh on Thu 18th Oct 2007 01:59 UTC
lqsh
Member since:
2007-01-01
v ohh
by SK8T on Thu 18th Oct 2007 04:32 UTC
RE: ohh
by smitty on Thu 18th Oct 2007 04:57 UTC in reply to "ohh"
smitty Member since:
2005-10-13

Kicker is dead, and replaced by a plasmoid in plasma which is still brand new. And probably will be rewritten before 4.1 comes out, from what I've heard.

From SVN:
> Aaron J. Seigo committed changes in /trunk/KDE/kdebase/workspace:
> Now the kicker lay down to sleep,
> I pray svn its code to keep;
> And if it crashes ere I wake,
> I pray a backtrace you do take.
>
> <fadeout>"s-i-i-lent night ... h-o-o-ly night ... doo doo doo, doo doo doooo.."</fadeout>

Reply Score: 7

v RE[2]: ohh
by SlackerJack on Thu 18th Oct 2007 05:17 UTC in reply to "RE: ohh"
RE[3]: ohh
by smitty on Thu 18th Oct 2007 05:30 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: ohh"
smitty Member since:
2005-10-13

Who said anything about rewriting the DE? I said they would be rewriting a single plasmoid. Plasma was designed from the ground up to make replacements like that possible, since a big issue in KDE3 was that it took huge amounts of work to even make a tiny change to Kicker.

Edit: Ok, looking back at my post perhaps it does look i was saying they would rewrite plasma as a whole. That's not what i meant, sorry.

Edited 2007-10-18 05:32

Reply Score: 6

RE[3]: ohh
by superstoned on Thu 18th Oct 2007 14:25 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: ohh"
superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

nah, they won't rewrite plasma, they're just gonna improve on the current panel implementation. Sure, it's worse than Kicker - no doubt about that. But porting kicker only to remove it later on (it wouldn't have been feasible to keep it around for the whole 4.x series anyway) was considered a huge waste of time. Thus it was decided to settle with a bit less functionality for 4.0, to be fixed in 4.1.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: ohh
by GeneralZod on Thu 18th Oct 2007 09:27 UTC in reply to "ohh"
GeneralZod Member since:
2007-08-03

It's temporary "programmer art":

http://pinheiro-kde.blogspot.com/2007/10/its-your-turn-to-oxygen.ht...

Pinheiro and Ruphy were discussing changing it yesterday over IRC, but I went to bed before finding out what they were planning, and when it would be done.

Reply Score: 2

v Bad quality Vista ripoff
by plfiorini on Thu 18th Oct 2007 07:19 UTC
Kubuntu packages...
by apoclypse on Thu 18th Oct 2007 07:20 UTC
apoclypse
Member since:
2007-02-17

I don't know if its just the kubuntu packages, but at this poitn in time its pretty much unusable and if I said it was alpha quality it would be an understatement. Kwin kept crashing, the task manager didn't dispaly any open windows and it was slow as hell. I think I'll compile it myself this time. i think Kubuntu is doing an AWFUL job with the packages and this has been true since the alpha releases,

Reply Score: 3

RE: Kubuntu packages...
by superstoned on Thu 18th Oct 2007 14:26 UTC in reply to "Kubuntu packages..."
superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

yes yes yes, it's horrible. I think it's a Kubuntu problem, OR you expect too much. Most applications work great here, it's just plasma which is rather incomplete, and a few other minor things.

Reply Score: 2

kongrats
by REMF on Thu 18th Oct 2007 07:36 UTC
REMF
Member since:
2006-02-05

is the excitement around KDE4 causing the dev community to grow?

can this be seen from the likes of the commit list or such?

Reply Score: 2

RE: kongrats
by GeneralZod on Thu 18th Oct 2007 09:32 UTC in reply to "kongrats"
GeneralZod Member since:
2007-08-03

Don't know about the number of contributors (although easy and inviting tasks like writing pet plasmoids has been responsible for inducting a few people, and David Faure adds a bunch of new SVN accounts quite frequently), but it's certainly increased the activity:

http://kde.mcamen.de/statistics.html

Draw a vertical line down from the "3.4.1" release on the graph - this is, roughly, KDE4.0's "frist post!1".

http://cia.vc/ is a nice way of tracking commits in real-time, or you can go to #kde-commits on irc.freenode.net.

Reply Score: 2

should they rewrite KDE4?
by Sabz on Thu 18th Oct 2007 08:01 UTC
Sabz
Member since:
2005-07-07

one wonders if KDE4 will even be ready by 4.0 or even usable . i cannot see it being final in December 20th or whatever date in December

Reply Score: 0

RE: should they rewrite KDE4?
by Polari on Thu 18th Oct 2007 09:20 UTC in reply to "should they rewrite KDE4?"
Polari Member since:
2006-02-24

Why the hell would they rewrite it? They've got all the makings of a great platform, the actual desktop itself just needs a bit of polishing. 4.0 won't be perfect, but then neither was 3.0. I'd rather have 4.0 on my desktop in January and 4.1 eight or so months later than see the release delayed far into the new year. Even if it is a bit rough around the edges, 4.0 will still be a vast improvement over the aging 3.x series.

Reply Score: 2

v RE[2]: should they rewrite KDE4?
by Sabz on Thu 18th Oct 2007 09:29 UTC in reply to "RE: should they rewrite KDE4?"
GeneralZod Member since:
2007-08-03

"why should they rewrite it?..for starters it resembles Windows vista to much"

This can be fixed by theming, not re-writing. Apply make-up, rather than decapitating someone and re-growing them a new head ;)

" plus i think its better to have a stable release than an unstable one"

A KDE re-written from scratch would introduce so much instability that it would be insane.

" i think KDE4 needs to or will need to mature before Distributions put it on there desktops, why rush a release? "

Yes, KDE4 will need to mature before distros will default to it - that's simply a no-brainer. They want KDE4 release because the simple fact of the matter is that, perversely, only a tiny minority of people bother to test Beta releases, and KDE4.0 really needs a "trial-by-fire" to hammer it into shape. Release early, and often is an old open source adage, and the KDE guys have not been adhering to it as well as they would have liked. Plus, a growing number simply want it out the door - sitting on software this long without releasing builds up an unpleasant kind of psychological pressure that can lead to loss of motivation, and releasing provides - well, a release. Feature-freezes can be unpleasant for much the same reason - a feeling of slogging and slogging away, and not accomplishing anything visible.

Reply Score: 4

Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

plus i think its better to have a stable release than an unstable one


So do you want a rewrite or a stable release? The two are mutually exclusive.

why didnt they just call it KDE4 Glass?


Why would they?

Reply Score: 2

v RE[4]: should they rewrite KDE4?
by Sabz on Thu 18th Oct 2007 10:38 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: should they rewrite KDE4?"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

why would they, as i said, it resembles Microsoft Vista


a) thats a completely unacceptable reason for a rewrite.
b) making it look less like Vista does not require a rewrite.

Reply Score: 1

superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

I'm sorry, but it looks as much like Vista as Windows 3.0 looks like Mac OS X Leopard. Maybe you need new glasses?

Reply Score: 6

RE[6]: should they rewrite KDE4?
by Sabz on Fri 19th Oct 2007 08:57 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: should they rewrite KDE4?"
Sabz Member since:
2005-07-07

I'm sorry, but it looks as much like Vista as Windows 3.0 looks like Mac OS X Leopard. Maybe you need new glasses?


maybe i do but i say it resembles Microsoft vista to much

more screenshots here, http://polishlinux.org/kde/kde-4-preview-rev-723381/

Edited 2007-10-19 09:09

Reply Score: 1

superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

Yes, sure, it does resemble Vista too much. It has icons, windows, buttons - even a taskbar on bottom and a menu on the bottom-left, and it uses colors. And only Vista has those, of course.

Come on, Vista is nothing original, it's a copy of Mac OSX.

Reply Score: 7

RE[3]: should they rewrite KDE4?
by melkor on Thu 18th Oct 2007 11:05 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: should they rewrite KDE4?"
melkor Member since:
2006-12-16

KDE 3 was unstable? Not from my recollection...

And why is looking like Vista a bad thing? If that's all you can criticse KDE for, it's looking good.

Dave

Reply Score: 4

DeadFishMan Member since:
2006-01-09

/me thinks that people seem to forget easily the train wreck that GNOME 2.0 was back in the day and quickly point fingers to everybody else's dot zero release these days...

Having said that, I too think that Vista is a half-baked attempt that was rushed into the market given Microsoft financial investments on it, though. However, neither KDE nor even GNOME can take advantage of that sort of funding and/or resources and so the comparison between them and Vista is moot, IMHO.

Reply Score: 5

RE: should they rewrite KDE4?
by Soulbender on Thu 18th Oct 2007 10:00 UTC in reply to "should they rewrite KDE4?"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

should they rewrite KDE4?


No.

i cannot see it being final in December 20th or whatever date in December


It will be ready when it's ready. Deal with it.

Reply Score: 2

segedunum
Member since:
2005-07-06

As I thought, there is some whining as to how KDE 4 is being developed and some screams of "It's not ready and it will never be ready!", so here's how this is being done:

1. Get the development libraries and everything application developers need frozen first. This is necessary because developers cannot produce anything nice or solid with libraries and tools that are moving targets. Without this, the horse is standing here and the cart is five miles down the road.

2. Develop applications on top of said libraries, which are now stable, frozen and binary compatible.

3. Do cool stuff.

4. ???

5. Profit!

KDE 4 is going to see successive milestones running through .0, .1, .2, .3 etc. releases until new ideas are formulated and implemented, such as Raptor, and things like the new HIG will be expanded and feedback will be sought on different applications (no HIG police).

KDE 4 is a platform for new ideas about user interfaces and functionality on free desktops and a solid and integrated environment and window manager for getting a composited desktop and various 3D effects (and not some half-baked add-on for initial 'bling' impact, that isn't developed or tested with the main platform).

It's doubtful whether the Kickoff menu will remain in KDE 4 for more than a few point releases, and the main theme will obviously see new developments as feedback is take in. Phonon will possibly move from KDE into Qt, as might KHTML in the form of Webkit, as libraries are moved and find their new place in the order of things. Raptor is a new idea, and there may be other ideas integrated in such as OS X's new stacks, or possibly something completely different. I've got one or two ideas myself that I'll have to have a look at, most of which come from the mobile phone world, so I'll have to see what KDE 4 development actually looks like some time soon and see what you can do (which I can't do unless they've stabilised it!).

Reply Score: 7

tyrione Member since:
2005-11-21

Stacks is patented.

Reply Score: 1

segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Stacks is patented.

Tough. Apple really do piss me off, because it's always been possible to do variations on a theme. After all, it's basically a vertical list.

Reply Score: 2

v Looks like Micrsoft is behind KDE
by GENIUS on Thu 18th Oct 2007 11:46 UTC
v As much as I admire KDE...
by stodge on Thu 18th Oct 2007 11:51 UTC
RE: As much as I admire KDE...
by segedunum on Thu 18th Oct 2007 12:02 UTC in reply to "As much as I admire KDE..."
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

As much as I admire KDE, it still looks dull, ugly and uninspired. They really need to find some graphic designers to help them give it some professional zest..........It just looks....so....boring.

Wow. Well, it does look completely different to the old KDE, it only looks like Vista in terms of the black status bar and it will only look completely different as KDE 4 development progresses.

Since you're obviously overflowing with ideas, give us a description, some artwork and some idea of what you think you'd do.

Reply Score: 5

kde
by serlex on Thu 18th Oct 2007 11:55 UTC
serlex
Member since:
2007-01-09

the taskbar doesnt look very promising, hope its not final

Edited 2007-10-18 11:55

Reply Score: 1

RE: kde
by superstoned on Thu 18th Oct 2007 14:32 UTC in reply to "kde"
superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

It's as horrible as it looks, and no, luckily for us all it's not final. Plasma (part of which is the taskbar) still is going through a lot of work.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: kde
by yoursecretninja on Thu 18th Oct 2007 14:35 UTC in reply to "kde"
yoursecretninja Member since:
2006-01-02

I agree. And I hope the taskbar is changed before the release of 4.0. In screenshots where a lot of windows are open, it looks very cluttered. And without clear dividers between each 'button' in the taskbar, I think it would difficult to quickly find the one you are looking for.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: kde
by superstoned on Thu 18th Oct 2007 15:28 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: kde"
superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

the taskbar is really still open for major changes, as it's part of Plasma.

Reply Score: 2

KDE4
by newageman on Thu 18th Oct 2007 13:04 UTC
newageman
Member since:
2007-10-02

screenshots? where are the screenshots ? Let me look at my DE-to-be.

Reply Score: 1

RE: KDE4
by superstoned on Thu 18th Oct 2007 15:27 UTC in reply to "KDE4"
superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

Hey, I added quite a few screenshots to the article ;-)

Reply Score: 2

atriq
Member since:
2007-10-18

All of these "it looks like vista oh noes end of world" comments are getting a bit obnoxious. That is, at best, a trivial fact. How can you look at a screenshot or two (of X.0 betas, no less) and come to the conclusion that it needs a complete rewrite? Besides, isn't the other "problem" that you have way too much control over the appearance and behavior of it? Seems to me that the seemingly endless configureability makes the "it looks like vista, therefore bad code" a non-issue since a distro (or dare I say burden the end user with... options) can just release with a "doesn't look like a MS product, therefore good code" default appearance.

Case in point: a couple days ago, I decided I wanted to give my workstation a more osx look; I had a BeOS thing going for quite a while and was getting tired of being reminded of Junior High. A few minutes later, I had this: http://olin.fit.edu/~jbelivea/arch/ss11.busy.png

That said, I still like GNOME. It was the first UI I started with on with Linux. But ultimately, I had to switch to something more customizeable. I'm by no means part of that power user elite someone else mentioned; I just need to see something different from time to time.

Reply Score: 5

Running Scared!
by marcusesq on Thu 18th Oct 2007 14:25 UTC
marcusesq
Member since:
2006-01-18

KDE 4 is looking great. It is so reassuring to see the gnome fanboys panicing when its only Beta 3 of the first release!
Remember, there are three types of people in this world: Followers, Leaders and those left standing there asking "Where'd everyone go?"

Reply Score: 2

Generic Rant
by elsewhere on Thu 18th Oct 2007 14:44 UTC
elsewhere
Member since:
2005-07-13

This comment from a poster by the name of Johnny Akward on the dot (http://dot.kde.org/1192512637/1192546591/) pretty much says it all:

It looks great, but why isn't my favourite feature included (please vote for my bug report). It crashes somestimes as well. KDE 4 won't be as good as KDE 3 unless it can suspend and restore properly. I like Oxygen, but why is it all white with no contrast? The alt-f2 thingy is black. Why isn't it white? I did something and it didn't work - can someone tell me why? How do I fix it? The programmers need to work harder. The usability people need to usabil harder. I like the flashy graphics, my friends will want to use KDE. Why are you all working on the graphics though, we need more features. Why does Aaron look like Tom Green? He needs to stop looking like Tom Green and work harder on Plasma. And Lubos would be far more productive if he didn't mess around with silly character sets all the time.


People, get over it. Complain about stability when it's released, not when it's in development, because here's a hint: the devs know already. See something specific or broken, file a bug and they'll appreciate the feedback, don't moan on a public forum.

A year ago people postured and tubthumped that the devs set the bar too high and would never implement the major changes and that pie-in-the-sky frameworks would wind up vaporware. Now the complaints have been reduced to postulating whether the polishing will be finished by deadline, or that it looks too much like Vista (WTF?), or that people born post-70's wondering why the clock has a line through it.

I'd say that's progress, and impressive at that. As one of the chief execs at the company I work for, during a period of major acquisition/restructuring/global expansion, was fond of saying: "I know we're making progress because you're complaining about new problems now, and not the same ones from last quarter." Food for thought... ;)

Reply Score: 5

RE: Generic Rant
by apoclypse on Thu 18th Oct 2007 15:05 UTC in reply to "Generic Rant"
apoclypse Member since:
2007-02-17

I guess people are more disappointed in the fact that so far the releases are beta in the traditional sense as opposed to the more common OSS sense. In other many projects have beta versions of their software but for the most part they are stable and work since most issues should have been resolved in the alphas, the betas are fro stabilizing not adding features, anything that was going to be added should have been added and prepared for stabilization. Right now KDE4 feels very alpha quality, but it might be due to the packages I've been using, I'm compiling from svn as we speak.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Generic Rant
by superstoned on Thu 18th Oct 2007 15:30 UTC in reply to "RE: Generic Rant"
superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

The reason it feels very alpha and unfinished is really mostly Plasma. Most other apps are pretty usable, though a few low-level bugs still have to be shaken out of the libraries (ssl support is one).

So as long as plasma (which is moving insanely fast right now, taking up a big part of the crazy amount of almost 400 commits a day) is usable, I think things will work out for the good.

Release early and often, that's important. We need comments, bugfixes, new contributors - so we need to release.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Generic Rant
by smitty on Fri 19th Oct 2007 07:45 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Generic Rant"
smitty Member since:
2005-10-13

The reason it feels very alpha and unfinished is really mostly Plasma.

Exactly. KDE as a whole is in the beta stage, but plasma is still very, very alpha. Unfortunately, most people just play with the desktop on the LiveCD for 5 minutes before giving up and without realizing that although Plasma is very visible it is only a small part of KDE and the rest is much further along. Opensuse even went ahead and included the KDE4 games packages in the default 10.3 installation.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Generic Rant
by Soulbender on Fri 19th Oct 2007 03:54 UTC in reply to "Generic Rant"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Why does Aaron look like Tom Green?


Now there's a curse I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.

Reply Score: 1

Beta 3
by Maripol on Thu 18th Oct 2007 16:33 UTC
Maripol
Member since:
2007-10-14
KDE 4 is very stable now
by diegoviola on Mon 22nd Oct 2007 02:31 UTC
diegoviola
Member since:
2006-08-15

for those people taht are intested in using KDE 4 as their primary DE, here is my experience: i find KDE 4 rock solid right now, everything is really stable... including plasma, not feature complete yet but is on the way... im running the latest svn code since 3 days ago and i've compiled it on slackware 12, the taskbar plasmoid is not complete yet and some things that should go into the taskbar (e.g. the pager, etc) are still floating in the desktop but im sure they will be in the taskbar soon... but everything is really stable now and things works... and plasma is really beautiful, if you want you can use KDE 4 right now but don't expect things to finished yet because they aren't yet, but im very impressed with all the progress and im already loving kde 4 ;)

Edited 2007-10-22 02:35

Reply Score: 2