Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 22nd Oct 2007 21:23 UTC
Java Sun's starting to phase out mobile Java that's been the standard on cellphones and other small devices in favor of their standard edition, which are made for PCs everywhere. Sun VP James Gosling's reasoning for shifting everyone over to Java Standard Edition is because 'cellphones and TV set-top boxes are growing up', meaning they're getting enough processing power to handle all the demands of full-featured Java.
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High time
by _mikk on Mon 22nd Oct 2007 21:50 UTC
_mikk
Member since:
2005-10-19

The J2ME, especially CLDC sucked enormously. I mean programming for JDK 1.1 these days?

No proper I/O.
No collections.

Development tools are less than optimal. (they work, but just...)

And then: CDC vs. CLDC vs. whatever else someone could come up with.

Good riddance!

Reply Score: 5

yeah
by Redeeman on Tue 23rd Oct 2007 00:31 UTC
Redeeman
Member since:
2006-03-23

this is a nice move, especially if they do the thing with splitting up the JRE and such to make it lighter, there are certainly lots of shit in j2se you do not need on your cellphone, but language version 1.5 is NOT one of them..

the proper collections framework, generics, and various other nice classes from j2se is surely something that will make it alot nicer to develop for mobile phones.

these new things could also make a MIDP 3.0 be a whole lot better..

Reply Score: 8

Why different version afterall
by sanctus on Tue 23rd Oct 2007 01:09 UTC
sanctus
Member since:
2005-08-31

a mobile edition I can understand

But I always wonder why they have different version if not to complicated life for no good reason. Why a enterprise and standard? Ahh, web libraries and a web server .. come on!

where is the .net entreprise edition, C standard and enterprise version. Did you run a python standard or enterprise interpreter.

Next Linux distro will sell a enterprise edition, where gcc used the --enterprise-code-quality-compilation - it will be better!

Reply Score: 1

RE: Why different version afterall
by Matzon on Tue 23rd Oct 2007 04:59 UTC in reply to "Why different version afterall"
Matzon Member since:
2005-07-06

I like the fact that there is a jre and then different sdks. The J2EE package contains a lot of stuff that is irrelevant for J2SE.
The reason why .net doesn't even have a EE edition, is because they don't have anything enterprisey ;)
The sheer number of enterprise solutions and packages (3rd party, jsr's etc.) is waaaaay higher and more advanced than .net. Not becuase .net is necessarily inferior, but simply because of java dominating in this marketspace (unlike desktop).

Reply Score: 7

google_ninja Member since:
2006-02-05

I don't know how true that is. The more popular frameworks have already been ported over (hibernate, spring), and I find that The .net Way scales up a hell of alot better then The Sun Way scales down. I would still recommend J2EE for the largest of projects, but that really doesn't cover a huge amount of stuff. The problem with J2EE is that it is far too over engineered, and you and to do ANYTHING you have to write a ton of "plumbing" code. Once you have that done, it tends to work very well, but from a purely development point of view, I am a hell of alot more happy working with .net.

DISCLAIMER: I havnt really done J2EE work for about 4 years now, although before that it is all I did for about 3 1/2 years. So if something changed recently, I wouldnt know.

Reply Score: 2

Matzon Member since:
2005-07-06

J2EE has changed A LOT - most of the plumbing code is now auto generated (for better or worse).

EJB3 has really made a lot of differences and stuff like JPA which integrates nicely with netbeans is really really nice.

However J2EE is really an abused term, since it covers a ton of technology, some better documented and used than others.

Reply Score: 2

snozzberry Member since:
2005-11-14

DISCLAIMER: I havnt really done J2EE work for about 4 years now, although before that it is all I did for about 3 1/2 years. So if something changed recently, I wouldnt know.

I'm offended that you qualified criticism with intelligent caveats based on your actual knowledge. You're holding the rest of us to an unreasonable standard.

Reply Score: 3

bariole Member since:
2007-04-17

1) .Net versions of Spring and Hibernate are not as good as Java ones. In spite of that I doubt that these days there is a greate difference (from develeoper's point of view) between .net and j2ee for small to medium sized projects.

2) Thanks to Spring plumbing is gone now. Present problem with modern j2ee are view technologies and the whole "threat browser as app enviroment" aproach. JSP and others tend to be a major pain in the ass when compared to something elegant and proper (WinForms for example). Hopefully Flex or JavaFX will take care of that.

Edited 2007-10-23 19:04

Reply Score: 1

RE: Why different version afterall
by kaiwai on Tue 23rd Oct 2007 07:38 UTC in reply to "Why different version afterall"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

The reason for different version is to reduce the size required for downloading - if they included everything which Java has, no one would download it - they would just put up with not having Java support.

J2ME served a purpose, now its time to move on - things have changed, the need to have a 'castrated' version is no longer relevant given larger flash capable mobile devices, faster processors and consumers demanding more from their applications. They want applications that are close to feature comparable as their desktop ones.

Reply Score: 2

thanOS Member since:
2006-03-03

kaiwai is right, there was a reason for CDC and CLDC. Different features on the devices, different needs by the developers.

Unfortunately both of these are slow and unresponsive on the device.

As for mysaifu...i have tried it on pocketpcs and it is very basic.

Reply Score: 1

scratching my head
by dogen on Tue 23rd Oct 2007 04:18 UTC
dogen
Member since:
2005-11-13

"Cellphones and TV set-top boxes are [...] getting enough processing power to handle all the demands of full-featured Java."

Boy, I'd call that counter-intuitive. Unless maybe the "full-featured Java" were radically tuned for a smaller environment. Java's my favorite designing language, but haven't the Java folks always been in radical denial of the footprint?

Reply Score: 6

This is going to be fun!
by FreakyT on Tue 23rd Oct 2007 04:33 UTC
FreakyT
Member since:
2005-07-17

I look forward to the day when I can run NetBeans on my cellphone.

Reply Score: 2

RE: This is going to be fun!
by Andrej on Tue 23rd Oct 2007 06:25 UTC in reply to "This is going to be fun!"
Andrej Member since:
2006-11-03

I personally prefer Eclipse on my phone ;)

Reply Score: 2

By the way
by Mediv on Tue 23rd Oct 2007 07:58 UTC
Mediv
Member since:
2006-05-10

By the way, a GPL J2SE virtual machine already exists for Windows Mobile.

It is called Mysaifu : http://www2s.biglobe.ne.jp/~dat/java/project/jvm/index_en.html

I mention it really for information, I did not really tested it.

Reply Score: 1

ggiunta
Member since:
2006-01-13

Possibly completely unrelated to java, but is anybody else under the impression that a lot of current smart / power phones sport extremely slow interfaces?
It looks as though the same evolutionary path is being taken as for desktop pc (eg. boot time for dos vs. vista)
While I can appreciate having firefox or azureus in my smartphone, I first and foremost want it to have sub-second boot time and sub-millisecond keypress response. Java has never been good at startup times, nor at small memory footprints...

Reply Score: 1

Bluetooth
by fortuna on Tue 23rd Oct 2007 12:04 UTC
fortuna
Member since:
2005-07-12

Does this mean we might finally get Bluetooth (and perhaps even USB) support as standard in JSE? For some reason JME supports it but has never been ported to JSE..

Reply Score: 2

argh
by chrish on Tue 23rd Oct 2007 12:39 UTC
chrish
Member since:
2005-07-14

Who, exactly, thought that Java on embedded systems was a good idea? No CPU cycles to spare, very little RAM, slow storage, etc. It takes my phone ages to load a Java app, and it's completely useless while Java is loading.

I'm reasonably certain that my Nintendo DS has a lot more power/RAM than my cell phone, but I wouldn't run Java there.

That said, I do use Eclipse sometimes on my iBook, which is certainly painful.

- chrish

Reply Score: 4

RE: argh
by sanctus on Tue 23rd Oct 2007 13:16 UTC in reply to "argh"
sanctus Member since:
2005-08-31

when I switch back from Ubuntu to OSX this weekend, I tried to find a equivalent to the IDE a was using with gnome.

My requirement are code completion, macros, regex, color syntax

I tried all the python/wxpython ide/text editor I know. (spe, drpython, edittra, PyPE, ulipad). wxpython is a hell slow on OSX, plus it has many interface glitch. Code completion took eternity to show up choices, far more than to write it. Simple scrolling of text use up to 80% cpu.

I finally stop and fully use eclipse which was the lightest and fastest of all IDE I've tried (Xcode don't have python code completion). Except the ugly* interface, it is as fast and responsive as a native OSX application.

*why they promote native look and of SWT and choose custom made tab of disputable taste?

Reply Score: 1

RE: argh
by snozzberry on Tue 23rd Oct 2007 16:07 UTC in reply to "argh"
snozzberry Member since:
2005-11-14

Who, exactly, thought that Java on embedded systems was a good idea?
The people who invented it:

http://java.sun.com/docs/white/langenv/Intro.doc1.html#943
The Java programming language originated as part of a research project to develop advanced software for a wide variety of network devices and embedded systems. The goal was to develop a small, reliable, portable, distributed, real-time operating platform. When the project started, C++ was the language of choice. But over time the difficulties encountered with C++ grew to the point where the problems could best be addressed by creating an entirely new language platform. Design and architecture decisions drew from a variety of languages such as Eiffel, SmallTalk, Objective C, and Cedar/Mesa. The result is a language platform that has proven ideal for developing secure, distributed, network-based end-user applications in environments ranging from network-embedded devices to the World-Wide Web and the desktop.

The desktop versions for multiple OSes/architectures were Sun's loss-leader method of convincing vendors it was a workable, architecture-independent platform. You the consumer get it for free, but the money comes from vendors in need of licensing it for embedded applications.

Granted, it took nearly eleven years for that to become a reality (HD-DVD, BluRay) and as a "real-time operating platform" it's been surpassed by more robust RTOSes like QNX, but the article makes it clear Sun's patience is paying off.

Reply Score: 1

RE: argh
by sbergman27 on Tue 23rd Oct 2007 17:18 UTC in reply to "argh"
sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

I don't have a phone capable of running Java. But I have to wonder just how well WORA actually works on such diverse (and limited) hardware, with diverse display resolutions, input methods, ram quantity, etc.

My first encounter with write once, run anywhere, was over twenty years ago with a product called ZBasic. It had all these screen scaling capabilities and other capability mapping abstractions that sounded great. But writing the same app for my Apple ][ and my DOS box, I quickly saw the pitfalls of WORA on diverse devices. A decade and a half of making various applications work with a range of different serial terminals didn't make me any more sanguine about such things. Anyone who has ever supported WordPerfect 4.x or 5.x on Unix should know what I mean.

Edited 2007-10-23 17:19

Reply Score: 1

JavaFX
by fortuna on Tue 23rd Oct 2007 12:46 UTC
fortuna
Member since:
2005-07-12

I see this as a move designed to accelerate the deployment of JavaFX on mobile devices. I don't think anyone really expected JavaFX to be ported to JME, but Sun definitely want to see it on phones.

I think the iPhone is, if nothing else, a great example of how mobile UIs are entering a new generation, and JavaFX is going to be well-positioned to participate.

Reply Score: 1

RE: JavaFX
by bryanv on Tue 23rd Oct 2007 13:37 UTC in reply to "JavaFX"
bryanv Member since:
2005-08-26

I'm not sure javafx is really the gem people want it to be. I'm pretty unconvinced.

But, hey, I'm not an analyst.

Reply Score: 1

Figures.
by bryanv on Tue 23rd Oct 2007 13:38 UTC
bryanv
Member since:
2005-08-26

I finally get a new phone that sports MIDP2, is still crippled by CDLC, and now they start this whole initiative.

*sigh*

Oh well. At least the alphabet soup of JSR's might finally come to an end!

Reply Score: 1

bannor99
Member since:
2005-09-15

I do corporate desktop support for a company that loads
a custom install of XP and that also relies heavily on Java with IE for their Intranet apps.
Lately, we've been seeing a lot of problems regarding the JVM loading that cannot be fixed by removal / reinstallation.
When IE is messed, we can fall back to Firefox until the user can turn in their laptop to onsite support but I haven't found any alternative JVMs that include browser plugins.
Do anyone know of any?

Reply Score: 1

snozzberry Member since:
2005-11-14

I've noticed that Java updates for Windows never remove previous versions. Apologies for asking, but does "Add or Remove Programs" still show multiple versions of Java on your plagued desktops?

Reply Score: 1

DeadFishMan Member since:
2006-01-09

It does. Recently, I had to make a little clean-up on some of our machines here at work and found lots of entries for different versions of the JRE on the "Add/Remove Programs" applet in the Control Panel. I scratched the back of my head for a moment and then removed the old ones... And yes, it still worked properly afterwards! ;)

Reply Score: 2

bannor99 Member since:
2005-09-15

Yes, it seems that the JRE Updates install full versions
so they can be independently removed. I've seen as many as 11 different Sun JREs installed.
In a few cases, older versions, as far back as ver 1.3 are needed to support apps that won't work reliably with anything newer but, for a ( growing ) handful of users, once Java errors start happening, nothing but a re-imaging will resolve the problem.
So, I was hoping that someone could recommend an alternative JVM with in IE browser plug-in. ( Regrettably , some of the organisation's intranet sites don't work properly with Firefox or Opera )

Reply Score: 1

Yeah, right...
by Phloptical on Tue 23rd Oct 2007 23:48 UTC
Phloptical
Member since:
2006-10-10

getting enough processing power to handle all the demands of full-featured Java

Somehow.....I doubt it. Java is a couple of minor rev's away from becoming bloatware.

Reply Score: 1

This is retarded
by RMSe17 on Wed 24th Oct 2007 14:44 UTC
RMSe17
Member since:
2006-03-06

Java doesn't belong on a cell phone. Period.
If I didn't have a 3.6GHz Core 2 Duo on my PC tower, I would say Java doesn't belong there either.

Why? Because it is the biggest piece of bloat-ware that has graced this world.

My cell phone has a faster processor than a computer 15 years ago. Yet a simple game for it takes WAY longer to launch than a more complex game 15 years ago. My interface takes longer to load than the whole OS back in the day.

I will give you the point that if you had to program all your games and stuff in assembly langage, you might spend too much time to justify the normal performance. But you have no excuse to not use C++.

You Java devs are lucky that people have forgotten what performance feels like, or maybe they just never seen an app on a cell phone that was made in assembly or C/C++.

We don't design better mobile processors and embedded controllers so that the general user experience goes down because of all the crap that software programmers decide to add.

Edited 2007-10-24 14:48

Reply Score: 1

RE: This is retarded
by Matzon on Wed 24th Oct 2007 15:46 UTC in reply to "This is retarded"
Matzon Member since:
2005-07-06

If you have no idea what your are talking about, then I suggest you don't comment on a topic. Particularly non-constructive rants.

Reply Score: 1

RE: This is retarded
by bariole on Thu 25th Oct 2007 08:54 UTC in reply to "This is retarded"
bariole Member since:
2007-04-17

C++? Like yeah..

I will us is as soon as it gets:
1) compilers decent enough to generate code of same behavior on all those target platforms
2) libraries and frameworks which are at least comparable to java in their scope, support and documentation
3) an IDE comparable to RSA
4) get rids of i-can-too-write-a-meaningful-pointers-and-a-twisted-templates mentality

It's not that Java is gift from God or something in that vein, but it is the fastest portable, well supported language..

Reply Score: 1