Linked by Thom Holwerda on Tue 20th Nov 2007 17:02 UTC, submitted by kejar31
KDE KDE 4.0 RC1 has been released. "The KDE Community is happy to announce the immediate availability of the first release candidate for KDE 4.0. This release candidate marks that the majority of the components of KDE 4.0 are now approaching release quality. While the final bits of Plasma, the brand new desktop shell and panel in KDE 4, are falling into place, the KDE community decided to publish a first release candidate for the KDE 4.0 Desktop. Release Candidate 1 is the first preview of KDE 4.0 which is suitable for general use and discovering the improvements that have taken place all over the KDE codebase. The KDE Development Platform, comprising the basis for developing KDE applications, is frozen and is now of release quality." You want see Plasma panel? You get see Plasma panel!
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RC Already?
by bsharitt on Tue 20th Nov 2007 17:22 UTC
bsharitt
Member since:
2005-07-07

Maybe it's just me, but it seems that the 4.0 betas were closer to Alpha releases with major work still being done, and this RC seems more like the first proper beta.

Reply Score: 1

RE: RC Already?
by zombie process on Tue 20th Nov 2007 18:00 UTC in reply to "RC Already?"
zombie process Member since:
2005-07-08

That's how it works these days. I blame google for convincing society that instead of "not ready for prime time," beta means "cool." I don't really care how things are labeled, though - I'll continue to use KDE4 on my testing box to see how far it's come, and use kde3 on anything I plan to use for daily use. I'll probably continue to do this for quite some time after 4 is released.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: RC Already?
by FunkyELF on Wed 21st Nov 2007 02:35 UTC in reply to "RE: RC Already?"
FunkyELF Member since:
2006-07-26

No crap...gmail is still beta

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: RC Already?
by Hiev on Wed 21st Nov 2007 02:39 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: RC Already?"
Hiev Member since:
2005-09-27

Beta and usable.

Usable is the key.

You can have a RC1 software but if is not usable the tagging is useless.

Reply Score: 1

RE: RC Already?
by miscz on Tue 20th Nov 2007 18:54 UTC in reply to "RC Already?"
miscz Member since:
2005-07-17

It doesn't even seem to be beta quality, introduction of new features in release candidate makes me chuckle and worry at the same time. RC is supposed to be "this is final unless we find some bugs, but there shouldn't be any" and might actually remain unchanged. KDE4 RC1 is nowhere near being complete or reasonably bug-free.

Reply Score: 7

RE[2]: RC Already?
by bsharitt on Tue 20th Nov 2007 19:05 UTC in reply to "RE: RC Already?"
bsharitt Member since:
2005-07-07

I hope this doesn't mean an unstable final release, though quotes like While the final bits of Plasma, the brand new desktop shell and panel in KDE 4, are falling into place seem cast doubt on that hope. I would generally consider a beta to be feature complete and just ironing out bugs, much less in and RC, which as you said should be ready for release but they are jsut making sure there are no final bugs that pop up.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: RC Already?
by Priest on Tue 20th Nov 2007 19:15 UTC in reply to "RE: RC Already?"
Priest Member since:
2006-05-12

Agreed, I miss the days when Version 0.9.1 Alpha meant basically finished.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: RC Already?
by gregk on Wed 21st Nov 2007 03:15 UTC in reply to "RE: RC Already?"
gregk Member since:
2006-03-13

OMG, I was just minding my own business reading these comments and had a wicked flashback to the days of Mandrake 9.1.

Reply Score: 1

v RE: RC Already?
by Joe User on Tue 20th Nov 2007 23:33 UTC in reply to "RC Already?"
RE[2]: RC Already?
by dylansmrjones on Wed 21st Nov 2007 07:43 UTC in reply to "RE: RC Already?"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

DOH.. that's just visuals.

The stripe is there because it is a virtual alarm-clock thingy as we know from the late 70'es and the early 80'es. I can remember those from my childhood.

It's retro.

Reply Score: 3

v RE[3]: RC Already?
by Joe User on Wed 21st Nov 2007 12:25 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: RC Already?"
RE[4]: RC Already?
by ThawkTH on Wed 21st Nov 2007 13:23 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: RC Already?"
ThawkTH Member since:
2005-07-06

Then change it.

Welcome to free software.
Welcome to KDE

Reply Score: 3

v RE[5]: RC Already?
by Joe User on Thu 22nd Nov 2007 12:11 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: RC Already?"
RE[4]: RC Already?
by marcusesq on Fri 23rd Nov 2007 10:18 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: RC Already?"
marcusesq Member since:
2006-01-18

You have posted this question before and had it explained to you even with the aid of pictures. Typical gnome trollboy... with the attention span of a flash cube.

Reply Score: 0

RE: RC Already?
by yahya on Wed 21st Nov 2007 00:20 UTC in reply to "RC Already?"
yahya Member since:
2007-03-29

To me this feels like an early beta rather than what I would consider a proper beta. Much essential functionality is still missing. E.g. no way to change the sound backend (I want xine!), kmail does not manage to collect mail, lots of "KDE crash manager" popups etc pp. The control center is still utterly incomplete, no way even to change the desktop background. Sorry guy, but please consider taking more time for that!

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: RC Already?
by leos on Wed 21st Nov 2007 00:33 UTC in reply to "RE: RC Already?"
leos Member since:
2005-09-21

no way to change the sound backend (I want xine!)


I'm pretty sure the default is xine...

Reply Score: 6

RE[3]: RC Already?
by superstoned on Sun 25th Nov 2007 09:16 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: RC Already?"
superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

yeah, and I'm also pretty sure it can be changed ;-)

Reply Score: 2

Excellent!!
by rockmen1 on Tue 20th Nov 2007 17:23 UTC
rockmen1
Member since:
2006-02-04

Congratulation KDE team!You make your schedule!!Now I can sit around to wait for the kubuntu package~~~

Reply Score: 1

"I can has cheezburger?"
by meianoite on Tue 20th Nov 2007 17:34 UTC
meianoite
Member since:
2006-04-05

You want see Plasma panel? You get see Plasma panel!


** Rant warning **

I want proper grammar. Could I get proper grammar, please?

As a user, and non-native speaker, I find myself constantly editing my own postings to fix grammar and spelling. That said, I'm not a paying subscriber, but given the fact that the option does exist, I feel it's not unfair for me to expect a little more professionalism and polish coming from content written by the staff. Conversely, there's zero chance anyone will ever have me paying for content I consider anything less than professional-grade, in presentation and substance.

** End of rant **

Reply Score: 5

RE: "I can has cheezburger?"
by Thom_Holwerda on Tue 20th Nov 2007 17:38 UTC in reply to ""I can has cheezburger?""
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Lighten up. I was joking... I see you sure didn't stand in line when god handed out the bags of humour.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: "I can has cheezburger?"
by eMPee584 on Tue 20th Nov 2007 17:43 UTC in reply to "RE: "I can has cheezburger?""
eMPee584 Member since:
2007-01-29

well the can has burgerzz part was not that bad.. seriously.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: "I can has cheezburger?"
by dylansmrjones on Wed 21st Nov 2007 07:45 UTC in reply to "RE: "I can has cheezburger?""
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Well, I think it was funny. Besides that, it's actually no different than "Long time, no see". Same idea.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: "I can has cheezburger?"
by meianoite on Tue 20th Nov 2007 17:51 UTC in reply to ""I can has cheezburger?""
meianoite Member since:
2006-04-05

Lighten up. I was joking... I see you sure didn't stand in line when god handed out the bags of humour.


Dear Thom, I have sense of humour to spare, and I understood the meaning of your grammar mangling just fine.

I'm talking about professionalism here. There are puns, there are word plays, and there are weak impersonations of uneducated hillbillies. The former two have humorous effects. The latter is simply bad taste considering your hopes of becoming a real journalist. Your personal blog is a more suitable sandbox, not a widely visited news site that offers paid membership.

Reply Score: 11

v RE[3]: "I can has cheezburger?"
by CPUGuy on Tue 20th Nov 2007 17:58 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: "I can has cheezburger?""
zombie process Member since:
2005-07-08

Back away from the coffee pot, dude.

Reply Score: 6

RE[3]: "I can has cheezburger?"
by eosp on Tue 20th Nov 2007 22:40 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: "I can has cheezburger?""
eosp Member since:
2005-07-07

Last I checked, it's Thom's site. Therefore, it is Thom's opinion that matters.

Reply Score: 1

v RE: "I can has cheezburger?"
by cmost on Wed 21st Nov 2007 03:44 UTC in reply to ""I can has cheezburger?""
RE: "I can has cheezburger?"
by gavin.mccord on Thu 22nd Nov 2007 17:22 UTC in reply to ""I can has cheezburger?""
gavin.mccord Member since:
2005-09-07

I would cheeseburger

is the correct term.

Reply Score: 1

ugly default theme
by kittynipples on Tue 20th Nov 2007 17:43 UTC
kittynipples
Member since:
2006-08-02

Does it still have the hideous green scrollbars I've seen in screenshots? People complain about the aqua scrollbars in OS X, but geeze.

Reply Score: 1

RE: ugly default theme
by J.R. on Tue 20th Nov 2007 17:48 UTC in reply to "ugly default theme"
J.R. Member since:
2007-07-25

I agree with you on that one...if there is one thing I would change with what I have seen so far it is the scrollbar

Edited 2007-11-20 17:48

Reply Score: 1

RE: ugly default theme
by Isolationist on Wed 21st Nov 2007 08:05 UTC in reply to "ugly default theme"
Isolationist Member since:
2006-05-28

I like the green scrollbars, so I guess we are all different. I hope for your sake that there is an option to configure it.

Reply Score: 1

oxygen has too little contrast
by eMPee584 on Tue 20th Nov 2007 17:49 UTC
eMPee584
Member since:
2007-01-29

...at least on my screen. One can barely see the top button edge.. I'd propose moving the shadow behind all buttons up a pixel or two so that they dont look too much like simcity.
edit: looking again, closer actually thats a bad idea... just the outline needs a bit more contrast thats it. and well still, I like shadows with a liiil' slant. Else it just looks too simcity... (1!!)..

Edited 2007-11-20 17:53

Reply Score: 1

v bottom bar(taskbar/whatever) sucks
by Moya on Tue 20th Nov 2007 18:13 UTC
screenies
by lqsh on Tue 20th Nov 2007 18:42 UTC
lqsh
Member since:
2007-01-01
RE: screenies
by kejar31 on Tue 20th Nov 2007 18:59 UTC in reply to "screenies"
kejar31 Member since:
2006-01-08

Well, looking at those screenshots, it looks as if the new Plasma panel is not in the new RC. Are these accurate or are the screenshots Thom posted of the panel included with RC1????

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: screenies
by aseigo on Tue 20th Nov 2007 19:06 UTC in reply to "RE: screenies"
aseigo Member since:
2005-07-06

yeah, plasma is off in its own universe. i blame the project maintainer, he's a complete ass.

(i'm allowed to say that: he's me)

i could explain why it's turned out this way, but it hardly matters at this point. as least you'll all get panels and desktop and widgets and Stuff(tm) in the final release and everyone should be happy about that ;)

you even get javascripted applet goodnessessess. (just trying to keep with Thom's "screw grammar" thing in this story ;)

4.1 is where we'll really get a chance to show what can be done with all of this, but it's already pretty interesting imho.

Reply Score: 23

RE[3]: screenies
by meianoite on Tue 20th Nov 2007 19:34 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: screenies"
meianoite Member since:
2006-04-05

you even get javascripted applet goodnessessess. (just trying to keep with Thom's "screw grammar" thing in this story ;)


Heh ;)

Extra points for doing it with a hint of Tolkien ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE: screenies
by hobgoblin on Tue 20th Nov 2007 19:09 UTC in reply to "screenies"
hobgoblin Member since:
2005-07-06

looks like a bastard child of vista and osx...

i think ill stay with 3.5.8...

replacement file manager, "new" control panel...

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: screenies
by aseigo on Tue 20th Nov 2007 22:07 UTC in reply to "RE: screenies"
aseigo Member since:
2005-07-06

> i think ill stay with 3.5.8...

free software is great that way.. you choose!

> replacement file manager

konqueror is still there and good as ever.

> "new" control panel...

new things suck, as a rule. even when they don't suck, we think they suck. that said, the old kcontrol did actually suck. we were just used to it. and *that* said the new systemsettings also sucks, but in new ways we aren't used to yet. at least systemsettings seems to be a base upon which we can rationally improve.

Reply Score: 13

RE[3]: screenies
by hobgoblin on Wed 21st Nov 2007 05:23 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: screenies"
hobgoblin Member since:
2005-07-06

heh, trying to steal my schtick here? ;)

yes i know thats the wonders of open source, but i dont think many will follow. just look at the responses here on osnews.

my issue with dolphin is that from what i can see, everything it brings to the table could have been put into konqueror with a bit of planing and effort.

breadcrumb bar? possible.
metadata pane? possible.
sidebar? possible.

only place there really would need to take effort was the profile system for konqueror. troubling thing is that i cant find much info on the actual work being done on konqueror (at least not in a easy to read news report). but if they where to make the profile system so that it would be url sensitive, that is that it would change to the web browser profile when one entered a url starting with http and so on, it would make for a great improvement.

i guess im the only one but i cant say i have had any real issues with the current control panel (kcontrol) system. what was it that sucked about it? only thing i can potentially think about was the subcategories as it would hide what the user was looking for. but by the looks of it, they have only "flattended" that onto a single window, and then i guess one will have to face a separate window pr settings one is altering. one could have just as well turned the sidebar in kcontrol into a long list. or just leave that settings entry in kmenu on by default...

i can hear the mac cultists claim that they are the only ones using a truly creative os already. the rest are just clones...

as in, if one want to change something, at least try to come up with something new...

meh, i just hope there is a option to turn it off...

Edited 2007-11-21 05:25 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: screenies
by smitty on Wed 21st Nov 2007 05:38 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: screenies"
smitty Member since:
2005-10-13

my issue with dolphin is that from what i can see, everything it brings to the table could have been put into konqueror with a bit of planing and effort.

breadcrumb bar? possible.
metadata pane? possible.
sidebar? possible.

only place there really would need to take effort was the profile system for konqueror.


The developers agree with you, all that could have been possible. They simply decided that it would be less work starting from scratch than doing that, with the added bonus of having a dedicated file manager rather than something that would obviously have to be much more complex. Plus, you still have Konqueror if you want it. They're using a Dolphin KPart for the file management code, so it should work just fine.

Reply Score: 4

RE[5]: screenies
by hobgoblin on Wed 21st Nov 2007 07:13 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: screenies"
hobgoblin Member since:
2005-07-06

so in effect they chickened out?

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: screenies
by phoenix on Fri 23rd Nov 2007 04:41 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: screenies"
phoenix Member since:
2005-07-11

only place there really would need to take effort was the profile system for konqueror. troubling thing is that i cant find much info on the actual work being done on konqueror (at least not in a easy to read news report). but if they where to make the profile system so that it would be url sensitive, that is that it would change to the web browser profile when one entered a url starting with http and so on, it would make for a great improvement.


That would be awesome, if the konqueror shell reacted to URLs by loading the profile associated with that URL.

Would make switching from web to file browser as easy as typing file:// instead of http://.

Having separate icons created that load the separate profiles is possible now ... but switching while the app is running is a pain.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: screenies
by hobgoblin on Fri 23rd Nov 2007 05:35 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: screenies"
hobgoblin Member since:
2005-07-06

heh, i may have spoken to soon. it seems konqueror have something like that, only its not inside the profile system.

basically, konqueror will alter the toolbars depending on the url open. but the settings for this are spread across the "configure toolbars" area.

sadly it would make konqueror a very different beast from the rest of the kde apps if it was to merge many settings into the profile system...

it also seems to interpret new tabs are a purely web related issue. that is, it shows the web related toolbar automatically. i have even seen it throw in the bookmark bar at that point. and that brings up another issue, what to do if different profiles have different number of toolbars?

it may seem that i have misunderstood the point of profiles fully. or maybe i want it to be something more then its supposed to be. right now it seems to basically be a kind of starting point from where the user can go where he wants to rather then a gathering point for url related settings.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: screenies
by superstoned on Sun 25th Nov 2007 09:22 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: screenies"
superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

I don't think you misunderstood, the whole profile thing is just a bit messy and weird. Konqi simply doesn't get a lot of UI love (though it did see some improvements in 4.0) due to a lack of developers willing to work on it. Feel free to volunteer, I love konqi as well and it would rock if someone spend time on it ;)

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: screenies
by hobgoblin on Sun 25th Nov 2007 09:37 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: screenies"
hobgoblin Member since:
2005-07-06

sadly i dont know my c++ from my java or perl...

basically i would not know where to start, at all...

Reply Score: 2

I'm waiting, but looking good :)
by Adurbe on Tue 20th Nov 2007 18:52 UTC
Adurbe
Member since:
2005-07-06

Due to the fact my systems MUST work I sadly can't rely on beta software, esp for something as important as my DE. I am however looking forward to it reaching 1.0 status then I can see about upgrading my suse box :-D

Some of the new features are looking nice and im glad that dashboard/plasma is coming on as its something i constantly hit F12 for on suse and it doesn't bring up my osx widgets :-p

Reply Score: 2

elsewhere Member since:
2005-07-13

Due to the fact my systems MUST work I sadly can't rely on beta software, esp for something as important as my DE. I am however looking forward to it reaching 1.0 status then I can see about upgrading my suse box :-D


Why wait? You can install the KDE4 packages from the opensuse build service, they're automagically built from current KDE snapshots against 10.2, 10.3 and factory environments. They'll even automatically update as new snapshots are built and pushed out to the build service.

They're designed to install alongside KDE3 with no incompatibility or overlap. Use KDE4 when you want to play, use KDE3 when you need to work. ;)

Reply Score: 5

Should Still Be an Alpha release
by whittmadden on Tue 20th Nov 2007 18:59 UTC
whittmadden
Member since:
2007-10-08

The KDE 4 betas that I have seen and used, feel like alpha releases for sure. Are they rushing to meet an already delayed release schedule? This is one of my biggest gripes about linux. Release schedules. People will either complain because the release schedules are too slow, or complain because they are too frequent. Can we not just wait until the product is finished, stable, and ready for production use? I would rather have software that was functional and not bug-ridden, and wait for it to get here, than get something early that was only halfway finished. I understand the need for beta testing, but if this is a release candidate, that they feel is basically a finished product, I will definitely have to wait for 4.1 or 4.2.

I also agree about the grammar situation that I've already seen comments about. It would be nice to have professional posts written, without grammar mistakes, giving me the impression that a 10 year old may have submitted the article. Leave the unprofessionalism to your own personal blogs.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Should Still Be an Alpha release
by leos on Tue 20th Nov 2007 19:12 UTC in reply to "Should Still Be an Alpha release"
leos Member since:
2005-09-21

Can we not just wait until the product is finished, stable, and ready for production use? I would rather have software that was functional and not bug-ridden, and wait for it to get here, than get something early that was only halfway finished.


And I'd like a pony. Doesn't mean I'm gonna get it.

You can't create perfect software at a .0 release. That is, unless you want to go the enlightenment route, and that's not working out so well for them. Eventually you need to release to get the testing done. Enthusiastic users will then pound on it and report bugs, and x.1 will be top notch. Personally I'm already running the KDE4 packages from Debian sid, and while beta4 was definitely far from complete, I'm already hooked on the new apps. Just upgrading to RC1 right now.

Reply Score: 6

whittmadden Member since:
2007-10-08

I agree with you about perfect software at .0 release, but this is a Release Candidate that feels like an alpha release. I agree testing needs to be done, and maybe they'll have a lot of bugs fixed between now and the actual final release. I sure hope so, because there is a lot of promise in this release.

Reply Score: 1

superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

as has been said a million times before - look a bit further. It feels like alpha? then check your 'feel'. Yes, Plasma is barely beta, kwin isn't finished. I know these things feel big and important, and they are, but they're not all of KDE. 95% of the code really is RC and already very stable. Don't let these few things fool you into thinking everything is that immature.

Reply Score: 2

yahya Member since:
2007-03-29

5% of the code really is RC and already very stable. Don't let these few things fool you into thinking everything is that immature.

Then why would basic functionality like e.g. fetching mail via IMAP not work with current RC 1?

Reply Score: 1

superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

because KDE PIM isn't ready and won't be part of KDE 4.0 (or at least, that's afaik the situation). Besides, such a thing can be due to a 1 line bug and doesn't indicate a huge problem...

Reply Score: 2

DeadFishMan Member since:
2006-01-09

The KDE 4 betas that I have seen and used, feel like alpha releases for sure. Are they rushing to meet an already delayed release schedule? This is one of my biggest gripes about linux. Release schedules. People will either complain because the release schedules are too slow, or complain because they are too frequent. Can we not just wait until the product is finished, stable, and ready for production use? I would rather have software that was functional and not bug-ridden, and wait for it to get here, than get something early that was only halfway finished.

This is basically what Debian and other distributions that use the so called Rolling Release System are about and you can see how that worked out for them... You can see people all over the interweb putting Debian down because it doesn't put out a release every six months or so :. I agree with you one hundred percent there: I'd rather wait and get the damn thing ready for production use than rush and use alpha quality software.

That's why I love Debian: I can be as up-to-date as I want using a healthy mix of Lenny and Sid repositories (plus apt-pinning and apt-listbugs) and still rest assured that I am using a stable system.

I wouldn't mind giving the KDE developers a few more weeks to get their act together and release a release-quality product.

Reply Score: 3

tyrione Member since:
2005-11-21

Unfortunately, the Kernel 2.6.23 is only here:

http://kernel-archive.buildserver.net/debian-kernel/build/pool/main...

and we're nearing 2.6.24 release.

I'd rather have the 2.6.24 then an experimental desktop environment.

Don't get me wrong. I keep my SVN copy of KDE Trunk up-to-date and build it to make sure it does.

I just won't touch it for consumption until this coming January.

Reply Score: 2

Narishma Member since:
2005-07-06

If you wait until it's finished and stable before releasing, developers lose interest and you get E17.

Reply Score: 4

whittmadden Member since:
2007-10-08

Well hopefully if the gOS can be successful, and 10,000 sales of the gPC at Wal-Mart is any indication, perhaps that might help motivate the E17 developers to finishing their product.

Reply Score: 2

superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

Wouldn't count on it. They have a vision almost comparable to what KDE 4 wants, but lack the resources to even do what Gnome wants...

Reply Score: 2

elsewhere Member since:
2005-07-13

Can we not just wait until the product is finished, stable, and ready for production use?


Linus has been known the push experimental code into the kernel for mainline releases because released code gets much better useage and subsequent real-world testing and troubleshooting than beta code does. Regressions suck, but then so does stalled advancement because the pool of users willing to install and troubleshoot -mm is far smaller than the pool of users willing to download the latest vanilla kernel and compile it themselves.

Or let's look at Windows, which even Microsoft has been forced to acknowledge does not get taken seriously by commercial users until at least SP1 is released, or "dot-one" in OSS parlance.

Then there's the endless beta cycles for Google, which serve only to absolve themselves of liability or responsibility when things go wrong, or the never ending development cycle for E17 which has been referenced enough that I won't go into further discussion. Or the recent debate about the blocker bugs versus Mozilla's drive to get Firefox betas out the door. There was a never a commitment for KDE 4.0 to represent the finished embodiment of all the planning that went into the KDE4 roadmap. It's a developer release so that it can get real world useage, but one that will be fully useable as well. Nor will there be a forced overnight upgrade from KDE 3.x, which will continue to be maintained.

If it's going to make people feel better, consider KDE 4.1 to be SP1 for KDE4.

But ultimately, releasing the code is the only way to stabilize the code. Given that even do-no-wrong Apple had to release a slew of updates for OSX 10.5 shortly after release, which had already been delayed, I suspect people may be placing unrealistic expectations on the KDE4 dev team and community.

Call me cynical, but I'm getting the distinct impression that the loudest "it's still a beta!" complaints about KDE4 aren't even coming from KDE users. Seems to me there was a time when people in the OSS community would get excited about any release that contained new and interesting technology that tried to do things differently, whether it was even relevant to them or not.

Or then again, maybe it's simply insecurity from the nay sayers. ;)

Reply Score: 6

diegoviola Member since:
2006-08-15

I didn't really like your "SP1" example.

Reply Score: 3

superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

Yet it's pretty accurate. I don't think KDE 4.0 will be less stable than Vista was before its first service pack.

Reply Score: 2

superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

Call me cynical, but I'm getting the distinct impression that the loudest "it's still a beta!" complaints about KDE4 aren't even coming from KDE users. Seems to me there was a time when people in the OSS community would get excited about any release that contained new and interesting technology that tried to do things differently, whether it was even relevant to them or not.

Indeed. There is so much cool and new in there, and all everyone does is complain plasma isn't stable yet. Sure, Plasma is cool, but there is a lot more cool stuff in there...

Or then again, maybe it's simply insecurity from the nay sayers. ;)

Yeah, it's possible ppl are afraid their petprojects will lose all users and developers once KDE 4.1 hits the street so they try to scare as many ppl as possible from using KDE 4.0 and helping to get it stable ;-)

Reply Score: 2

Version
by Seth Quarrier on Tue 20th Nov 2007 19:14 UTC
Seth Quarrier
Member since:
2005-11-13

My understanding is that the Betas where primarily to get the libraries out to developers and that the libraries are pretty mature. Top level GUI elements like Plasma widgets have been the last to mature, because they need the framework underneath them to be mature. Therefor people who look at the KDE releases and see and immature Plasma have been incorrectally extending that impression down the stack. As the libraries are maturing the top level GUI will be able to quickly catch up. Also, version 4.0 is going to be like any X.0 release and is going to be based more on architecture and potential then actual feature implementation.

Reply Score: 8

RE: Version
by aseigo on Tue 20th Nov 2007 22:07 UTC in reply to "Version"
aseigo Member since:
2005-07-06

"My understanding is that the Betas where primarily to get the libraries out to developers and that the libraries are pretty mature. Top level GUI elements like Plasma widgets have been the last to mature, because they need the framework underneath them to be mature"

that would absolutely correct.

Reply Score: 6

RE[2]: Version
by Thom_Holwerda on Tue 20th Nov 2007 22:12 UTC in reply to "RE: Version"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Hey Aaron, who's going to win the bet? I must say that now that Plasma is shaping up, things are finally starting to look up for you - you will get that Guinness if KDE 4.0 makes its way to my desktop before December 31st, 23:59, 2007. Seeing I don't drink alcohol anymore, if I win, I'll take a tonic ;) ).

Seriously now, I like the new panel design. Obviously needs some srious UI love still, but it seems as if it's getting there. I'm extremely wary about the choice of menu, still, though - please don't fcuk that one up.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Version
by superstoned on Sun 25th Nov 2007 09:31 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Version"
superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

I believe there's a small project to get a KDE 3.x like menu in for 4.0, not sure if that's gonna work out. But either way, I'm sure you were aware the other (pretty cool) menu replacement projects like Raptor and Lancelot simply aren't usable yet so they will have to wait for 4.1 to get a chance of becoming included.

And even though this suse one is rather weird, it IS based on solid usability work and many users like it.

Reply Score: 2

I can't wait to see
by diegoviola on Tue 20th Nov 2007 19:46 UTC
diegoviola
Member since:
2006-08-15

the final Krunner, Containement (animated backgrounds) the plasma-panel and all the Plasma desktop running in action ;)

KDE 4 will be great, thanks for all the amazing work.

Reply Score: 3

v RE: I can't wait to see
by sb56637 on Wed 21st Nov 2007 03:06 UTC in reply to "I can't wait to see"
RE[2]: I can't wait to see
by boudewijn on Wed 21st Nov 2007 08:15 UTC in reply to "RE: I can't wait to see"
boudewijn Member since:
2006-03-05

Yeah, and around 1994 I had an panning, randomly generated fractal mountain landscape as my background in fvwm1, swimming fishes or a moving globe.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: I can't wait to see
by RIchard James13 on Wed 21st Nov 2007 11:44 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: I can't wait to see"
RIchard James13 Member since:
2007-10-26

And then I remember the first version of KDE broke the root desktop window so those apps would no longer run. Does this mean we finally get our fishtank back?

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: I can't wait to see
by superstoned on Sun 25th Nov 2007 09:32 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: I can't wait to see"
superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

Well, plasma supports OpenGL and such stuff, and the background is just another plasmoid (you can put ANY plasma applet as background) so there actually aren't any limitations as far as I can tell ;-)

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: I can't wait to see
by diegoviola on Mon 26th Nov 2007 04:16 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: I can't wait to see"
diegoviola Member since:
2006-08-15

very cool, thanks for the info ;)

Reply Score: 2

KDE Live
by atezun on Tue 20th Nov 2007 20:17 UTC
atezun
Member since:
2005-07-06

For anyone interested the newest LiveCD is out now.

http://home.kde.org/~binner/kde-four-live/

Reply Score: 5

nice!
by serlex on Tue 20th Nov 2007 21:10 UTC
serlex
Member since:
2007-01-09

well done, havent tested it, but I like the panel, KDE4 will do well

Reply Score: 2

Dislike menu...
by mezz on Tue 20th Nov 2007 21:23 UTC
mezz
Member since:
2005-06-29

Am I alone that dislike the menu? I haven't play with KDE, but from what I have seen in the screenshot at http://tinyurl.com/yppe9r and it looks same with Vista's default menu. I totally hate it and I think it is downgrade. The scroll in menu is making more difficult to select things in there.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Dislike menu...
by aseigo on Tue 20th Nov 2007 22:09 UTC in reply to "Dislike menu..."
aseigo Member since:
2005-07-06

> looks same with Vista's default menu

i've used vista's menu, and hate it.
i've used kickoff, and i'm not on the verge of tears yet. note that kickoff actually has real world usability testing done it by actual real world usability people using actual real world desktop computer users.

that said, i'm still not happy with the application browser list (second button) yet.

Reply Score: 6

RE[2]: Dislike menu...
by Luis on Wed 21st Nov 2007 00:36 UTC in reply to "RE: Dislike menu..."
Luis Member since:
2006-04-28

What I don't like about this menu is that it's very slow to find an app you're looking for and it requires many clicks. The old one (current one) is much faster and does not requires clicking back and forth. I hope it's still a choice in KDE4.

That said, congrats for all the hard work put into this. Surely once it's actually released many things will keep improving and everyone will be happy eventually. Better to release as soon as it's usable than waiting until it's absolutely complete/stable. Then people can choose to use it or wait a bit.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Dislike menu...
by grat on Wed 21st Nov 2007 01:47 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Dislike menu..."
grat Member since:
2006-02-02

Stop clicking. Start typing.

While I think people who think that Kickoff is "just like Vista's start menu!" are UI-challeneged, and probably shouldn't be allowed near KDE (Except that they think Gnome is just like OSX, so you really can't win), the two menu systems *do* have a couple things in common.

First off, if I want to launch an app and know the name of it, I (KDE) hit Alt-F1, and type the first few characters and hit enter. Or I hit it from the favorites, or the history.

Vista, I either type a few characters and hit enter, or I select it from the "pinned" apps, or I select it from the history section.

Kickoff however makes it much easier to access devices, since Vista gets a little confused by "Drive letter colon", and there's no direct selection of storage.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Dislike menu...
by mezz on Wed 21st Nov 2007 03:38 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Dislike menu..."
mezz Member since:
2005-06-29

Stop clicking. Start typing.

Well, it shouldn't be problem for me. But it is a problem for most of our grandparents, parents and other that aren't into computer. There is no way for them to know the name of applications and they don't care about that. Old way works best for them.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Dislike menu...
by leos on Wed 21st Nov 2007 15:37 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Dislike menu..."
leos Member since:
2005-09-21

There is no way for them to know the name of applications and they don't care about that.


Bull. If they had no idea what they were looking for, they wouldn't be able to find it in the menu. Of course they know what they want to open. They don't need to know the name of the program, just what it does. Starting to type "internet" (you'll only need to type the first letter or two) will bring up firefox and so on.

Ever tried to teach an elderly person how to use the mouse? It is way harder than teaching them the keyboard. Everyone can hunt and peck. The only reason we're all still using the mouse is because keyboard interfaces used to be very unintuitive.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Dislike menu...
by RIchard James13 on Wed 21st Nov 2007 11:50 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Dislike menu..."
RIchard James13 Member since:
2007-10-26

Stop clicking. Start typing.

This is the dumbest move on most Linux systems there are thousands of programs just type [tab][tab] in a BASH shell.

Most of the kde programs start with the letter K. So we waste one keyclick already.

The old system was there because it worked and it worked fast. If I want a CLI I'll bring up a terminal window. But please don't screw around with the menus like that.

Reply Score: 0

RE[5]: Dislike menu...
by leos on Wed 21st Nov 2007 15:48 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Dislike menu..."
leos Member since:
2005-09-21

This is the dumbest move on most Linux systems there are thousands of programs just type [tab][tab] in a BASH shell.


So in other words you know absolutely nothing about how the incremental search works, and yet you feel you should complain about it. Awesome.
You're not searching the thousands of programs on your machine, you're searching the start menu items. The search is incremental, and often you don't need more than two keys or so. It searches descriptions, so you don't even need to know the name of applications, just what they do. The old system was there because it was copied from windows, not because anyone had done any work on proving it was fast.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Dislike menu...
by mezz on Wed 21st Nov 2007 03:33 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Dislike menu..."
mezz Member since:
2005-06-29

What I don't like about this menu is that it's very slow to find an app you're looking for and it requires many clicks. The old one (current one) is much faster and does not requires clicking back and forth. I hope it's still a choice in KDE4.

Exactly what I mean. Also, it is making harder to play in menu when you are on laptop with touchpad.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Dislike menu...
by MamiyaOtaru on Fri 23rd Nov 2007 04:13 UTC in reply to "RE: Dislike menu..."
MamiyaOtaru Member since:
2005-11-11

i've used vista's menu, and hate it.
i've used kickoff, and i'm not on the verge of tears yet. note that kickoff actually has real world usability testing done it by actual real world usability people using actual real world desktop computer users.


1: the implicit implication that Microsoft did not do any usability testing is probably specious.

2: the more people support stuff like Kickoff with the assertion that it was created through usability testing, the more I'm likely to ignore/mistrust anything to do with usability testing.

If usability testing is so all fired important, why haven't you switched the button order in dialogs like Gnome did? FYI: I'm glad you haven't, and Gnome saying they did so on the basis of usability studies doesn't make me like their dialog button order. It doesn't make me like Kickoff either.

Your points about change are good. A lot of people tend to reflexively dislike change. So I would hope there would be some tangible benefit that outweighs provoking such dislike. I'll try to find out if that's the case for myself by trying a liveCD. Whether its the case in general for the userbase as a whole will be seen shortly. I hope it pays off.

There have been people who laud every mockup and roadplan, there have been change hating fools like me. KDE4 seems to be a bit of a gamble, and whatever happens I salute the KDE team for undertaking it.

Reply Score: 3

Faith
by handy on Tue 20th Nov 2007 21:28 UTC
handy
Member since:
2005-07-06

Why keep people nagging about the release titles? Wait till the final release is out. I have all the faith that KDE 4.0 will be a stable platform.

Anyways keep up the good work working on my favorite DE!

Reply Score: 5

...
by Hiev on Wed 21st Nov 2007 02:21 UTC
Hiev
Member since:
2005-09-27

I just trued the RC1, there are to much logic errors still, some are really serious like:

When I rotate a plasmoid and make it bigger the options frame won't show the icons, so there is no way close it, just kill it.

Rotating a plasmoid makes it look bad, is not antialiased.

And whats the point in rotating a plasmoid anyway?

There is no way to easily return to the original size, degress if you accidentally rotated a plasmoid, just close it and put another.

Moving a plasmoid is not intuitive anymore, click and hold in the ? icon to move it is not intuitive.

Plasmoid config dialog is not workspace aware, it will always appear in the first desktop, no matter in what desktop you are.

Lancelot plasmoid show "Error" labels everywhere.

Still crashes to much.


And this is just in 10 mins. testing, I don't feel confident enought to keep using it.

I lost my hopes to see a stable 4.0, so I guess the real KDE 4.0 is months away.

Reply Score: 2

RE: ...
by phoenix on Fri 23rd Nov 2007 04:42 UTC in reply to "..."
phoenix Member since:
2005-07-11

Wow, you tested one thing in KDE 4.0 RC1 and have declared the entire thing to be crap based on that one thing? Talk about an exhaustive review.

Reply Score: 4

RE: ...
by gilboa on Fri 23rd Nov 2007 23:45 UTC in reply to "..."
gilboa Member since:
2005-07-06

... And If you've taken the time to file a couple of bug reports in bugs.kde.org instead of just complaining about it, RC2 might have looked far closer to your ideal DE.

On the other hand, it's far easier to bitch and moan...

- Gilboa

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: ...
by Hiev on Sat 24th Nov 2007 15:08 UTC in reply to "RE: ..."
Hiev Member since:
2005-09-27

Im a final user, not a tester.
Those bugs are obvious to any people even the developers.

Try to blame me for their erros is just lame, but common.

Edited 2007-11-24 15:08

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: ...
by gilboa on Sat 24th Nov 2007 16:23 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: ..."
gilboa Member since:
2005-07-06

Let me see if I understand you correctly.
You're testing a yet to be released open source software, you complain about bugs while refusing to report them... and you call me lame?

/+1 flame-bait. /Adds Hiev to the troll list.

- Gilboa

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: ...
by superstoned on Sun 25th Nov 2007 09:36 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: ..."
superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

Good news then. I didn't read your full post (have seen enough rants today) but as far as I can tell, everything you mention has been fixed. Rotating applets look better, they snap to certain rotation degrees etc etc.

Reply Score: 2

4.0 goal reminder
by pixel8r on Wed 21st Nov 2007 02:39 UTC
pixel8r
Member since:
2007-08-11

just noticed a lot of people are criticising the lack of features available in 4.0 RC1.

The 4.0 release as I understand it should only be considered STABLE and not necessarily "feature-complete". As the KDE devs themselves have said, it wont be until 4.1 that the real goodness of KDE4 will be there.

That said, I do feel that calling it a Release Candidate is a bit ambitious. They haven't even got all the icons in place yet (see control center and panel menu). Also people are still reporting crashes and serious bugs with plasma and various apps, so I think there's still some bugfixing work to do before we can call it a RC.

I'll happily continue to check out each release though...looking forward to 4.0 final ;)

Reply Score: 1

Windows release
by FunkyELF on Wed 21st Nov 2007 02:40 UTC
FunkyELF
Member since:
2006-07-26

I remember reading that moving to cmake was part of some big plan to bring kde to Windows. Is that still true?

Reply Score: 1

RE: Windows release
by elsewhere on Wed 21st Nov 2007 03:28 UTC in reply to "Windows release"
elsewhere Member since:
2005-07-13

I remember reading that moving to cmake was part of some big plan to bring kde to Windows. Is that still true?


Cmake simplified the process, but I don't think it was necessarily the primary driver. I know that there are test builds already for Windows, and that KDE will compile with either gcc or msvc; it will also build on OSX and there are test builds available as well.

The kde libraries will be ported to Win and OSX, and this will allow many KDE apps to be easily ported with minimal effort to run natively on each platform. You can expect to see Konq, Amarok, KOffice etc. In this aspect, KDE will be more of an application environment than a desktop environment.

This doesn't mean everything will be ported, and there are some apps within KDE that simply wouldn't make sense running on a non-*nix platform, particularly the desktop itself.

I think some of the real magic for this cross-platform portability (aside from Qt4) is the work that was done with abstraction layers like solid or phonon. These permit the developers to create or port apps without necessarily needing to address the underlying platform. Simply port the libraries.

I wouldn't necessarily expect KDE 4.0 on Windows and OSX at launch, but I wouldn't expect it to be too far behind.

My personal opinion is that the KDE community at large could benefit from the wider exposure of key apps like Konqueror or KOffice running on multiple platforms, so I see this as a good thing. And if KDE4 can prove itself to be a powerful cross-platform application environment, similar to the "ideal" of write-once compile-many, it could benefit the free desktop community at large.

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: Windows release
by smitty on Wed 21st Nov 2007 05:00 UTC in reply to "RE: Windows release"
smitty Member since:
2005-10-13

The KDE developers basically just wanted to use anything but autotools, which apparently wasn't scaling well to a project the size of KDE with all it's various needs and was causing all kinds of problems, like creating hundreds of KB of config files just for a simple hello world app. A few different systems were looked at but eventually CMake was chosen because it seemed to work fairly well and the CMake developers reached out and promised to implement any missing features KDE wanted to have added. The fact that it can generate VS project files was a nice bonus, but not really the driving force behind it's choice.

I believe the plan is to leave Windows (and presumably OSX) applications in beta status for quite some time, with a final release sometime around the 4.1 timeframe. Or whenever they feel the apps are stable. I don't think there's been very much testing on non-unix platforms, so the timeline might change quite a bit after they get 4.0 released and people get to have a better look at everything.

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: Windows release
by tyrione on Wed 21st Nov 2007 05:50 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Windows release"
tyrione Member since:
2005-11-21

One of the nicest features of Cmake is the CMakeCache.txt file to see what is or is not missing in order to make your builds finish.

After a couple of days with it I could see the reason they switched.

Building LyX, Scribus, KDE 4 and soon more projects I use all with Cmake goes smoothly

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Windows release
by boudewijn on Wed 21st Nov 2007 08:13 UTC in reply to "RE: Windows release"
boudewijn Member since:
2006-03-05

At least two KOffice developers develop solely on OS X -- without the other (linux-based) developers noticing anything until we met in person. There is also a KOffice developer working on Windows. There are portability issues being worked out all the time, like Visual C++ not supporting using 'and' instead of && and things like that.

Reply Score: 4

v rc häää?
by p.leiner on Wed 21st Nov 2007 02:48 UTC
v RE: rc häää?
by miscz on Wed 21st Nov 2007 11:18 UTC in reply to "rc häää?"
RE[2]: rc häää?
by leos on Wed 21st Nov 2007 15:50 UTC in reply to "RE: rc häää?"
leos Member since:
2005-09-21

Don't get me wrong, even though I'm a Gnome user I hoped that KDE4 would become something really awesome. I had my doubts and sadly it seems I wasn't wrong.


How could you possibly know this without trying it?

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: rc häää?
by GeneralZod on Wed 21st Nov 2007 16:32 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: rc häää?"
GeneralZod Member since:
2007-08-03

Further: why are you (miscz) judging the entirety of the KDE4 series when not even the .0.0 release has been released, yet?

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: rc häää?
by miscz on Wed 21st Nov 2007 17:35 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: rc häää?"
miscz Member since:
2005-07-17

It's just the impression I get from seeing current results and remembering all the promises and hype.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: rc häää?
by segedunum on Thu 22nd Nov 2007 11:24 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: rc häää?"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

It's just the impression I get from seeing current results and remembering all the promises and hype.

OK. What promises do you feel have been broken, and why do you think they have no chance of being fulfilled?

Reply Score: 4

miscz Member since:
2005-07-17

Remember that Plasma had it's own website even before anybody knew what it was? Now it turns out to be desktop widgets... come on. And they're failing at that, plasmoids are unresponsive and rather basic at this point.
Remember this the old mock-ups?
http://plasma.kde.org/dms/1/21_209_kicker4transparentfloatingexpa.g...

Reply Score: 2

asdx24 Member since:
2007-05-17

Plasma is the entire desktop shell, not just "widgets" and is not finished yet.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: rc häää?
by superstoned on Sun 25th Nov 2007 09:42 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: rc häää?"
superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

So you actually have no idea how KDE 4 really is, but just go after every other uninformed person here who's ranting his ass off? And how many of those you think do exactly like you - howl with the other wolves?

If you don't know what you're talking about, shut the f--k up (liberally quoting Wittgenstein).

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: rc häää?
by miscz on Wed 21st Nov 2007 17:34 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: rc häää?"
miscz Member since:
2005-07-17

Because I try KDE from time to time and most releases of KDE4?

Reply Score: 2

Nice
by joekiser on Wed 21st Nov 2007 04:12 UTC
joekiser
Member since:
2005-06-30

Very nice, and congrats to the KDE team for their hard work. I still probably won't change over from 3.5x until maybe 4.1 (probably on PCBSD 2.2/FreeBSD 7.2-STABLE).

Reply Score: 1

Do KDE4 will have WebKit?
by timofonic on Wed 21st Nov 2007 05:28 UTC
timofonic
Member since:
2006-01-26

Do KDE4 will have WebKit?

I see it as a very important thing, as KHTML and KJS are outdated and WebKit development is very fast. WebKit has converted into the more interesting "web engine" actually.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Do KDE4 will have WebKit?
by smitty on Wed 21st Nov 2007 05:39 UTC in reply to "Do KDE4 will have WebKit?"
smitty Member since:
2005-10-13

Short answer: no.
Longer answer, it will probably be there in KDE4.1. Or maybe not, there's currently a huge argument about that going on among the developers. It will definitely be in Qt, though, so if the demand is there it should be easy enough to create apps using it.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Do KDE4 will have WebKit?
by yahya on Wed 21st Nov 2007 08:42 UTC in reply to "RE: Do KDE4 will have WebKit?"
yahya Member since:
2007-03-29

I cannot see Konqueror getting anywhere without a migration to WebKit. As much as I love a browser which is tightly integrated with the rest of the desktop and is pretty fast and responsive, I see an ever increasing number of web sites which do not support KHTML, the most prominent case being the google apps (gmail, google calendars, google docs and spreadsheet, etc).

The only remedy for this would be to replace KHTML by its offspring WebKit ASAP. There are already two working WebKit based browsers for Gtk/GNOME, Midori and Epiphany-Webkit. Both are still pretty buggy, however, the are there and it is possible to browse the web with them.

BTW: Since Dolphin is supposed to be the default file manager in KDE4, the only justification for having konqueror is its other personality, i.e. the web browser. I feel that this should be enough of an incentive to the konqueror developers. Else, when everyone will use dolphin for file management and firefox for browsing, konqueror might soon fade into obsolescense.

Edited 2007-11-21 08:43

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Do KDE4 will have WebKit?
by anda_skoa on Wed 21st Nov 2007 09:56 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Do KDE4 will have WebKit?"
anda_skoa Member since:
2005-07-07

...I see an ever increasing number of web sites which do not support KHTML, the most prominent case being the google apps (gmail, google calendars, google docs and spreadsheet, etc).


Even Google, despite being a trend leader in some areas and usually hiring smart people, has web developers who code and deploy browser checks to artifically restrict which browsers can get all the goodies and which just get plain fallbacks.

Makes it quite tiresome for the "locked-out" developers to fix real issues, when even those that work are not available to their users because the service provider does not want them to use their services.

Since Dolphin is supposed to be the default file manager in KDE4, the only justification for having konqueror is its other personality, i.e. the web browser.


Well, no.
Especially in the group of current users (not necessarily in the group of potentially new users) there are quite a bunch who like the way Konqueror allows them to handle filemanagement tasks, e.g. using tabs.

Reply Score: 4

RE[4]: Do KDE4 will have WebKit?
by yahya on Wed 21st Nov 2007 10:52 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Do KDE4 will have WebKit?"
yahya Member since:
2007-03-29

Even Google, despite being a trend leader in some areas and usually hiring smart people, has web developers who code and deploy browser checks to artifically restrict which browsers can get all the goodies and which just get plain fallbacks.

Makes it quite tiresome for the "locked-out" developers to fix real issues, when even those that work are not available to their users because the service provider does not want them to use their services.


Circumventing the browser checks can be easily achieved by changing the user agent string. Konqueror conveniently comes with a plugin that does this on a mouseclick. However, the real issue is, that, even when you change your user agent to Safari and try to enter gmail, konqueror will just crash or hang. Therefore, a move to Webkit should happen asap.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Do KDE4 will have WebKit?
by anda_skoa on Wed 21st Nov 2007 11:12 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Do KDE4 will have WebKit?"
anda_skoa Member since:
2005-07-07

Circumventing the browser checks can be easily achieved by changing the user agent string.


Aside from it being not as easy as that, e.g. some browser checks query for certain JavaScript objects and fail to detect browser with compat modes, it doesn't solve the problem of those sites very likelyusing browser specific hacks.

It is very hard, close to impossible, to debug something when you do not know if it is a bug on your side or just the site's code doing something wrong because it would be "right" for the browser you are "impersonating" because of a changed user agent.

If a site decides for whatever reason to send different data depending on browser, they should at least send valid data (as in following the specifications) as the default when not detecting one of its exception list.

However, the real issue is, that, even when you change your user agent to Safari and try to enter gmail, konqueror will just crash or hang.


If the site sends different data when detecting Safari, it is quite likely it is sending something Safari specific.

Therefore, a move to Webkit should happen asap.


There is no gurantee whatsoever that the site browser checks will then send correct data. They are more likely still stupid, check for the browser and send browser specific code instead of checking for the engine and sending engine specific code.

They could already do this nowadays, why should they change. History shows that a lot of web site developers are very resistant to improvments.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Do KDE4 will have WebKit?
by emilsedgh on Wed 21st Nov 2007 09:55 UTC in reply to "Do KDE4 will have WebKit?"
emilsedgh Member since:
2007-06-21

KHTML is outdated?! who said that?! NO, khtml is NOT outdated, it is under development, many good things are coming for it, and even if Webkit becomes a usable option, you will be able to switch between them.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Do KDE4 will have WebKit?
by segedunum on Wed 21st Nov 2007 10:19 UTC in reply to "RE: Do KDE4 will have WebKit?"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

KHTML is outdated?! who said that?!

Because we've had a situation for years now where many web sites simply don't work with KHTML, and when bugs are filed they are closed with a comment that we should all get web developers to change. That isn't going to happen.

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: Do KDE4 will have WebKit?
by melkor on Wed 21st Nov 2007 10:27 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Do KDE4 will have WebKit?"
melkor Member since:
2006-12-16

No - it's because the *vast* majority of websites do NOT conform to W3C standards, they are bastardised to work with IE mongrel browserss that disregard W3C guidelines, so that Microsoft can attempt to hijack the web and make it into it's own proprietary bitch yard. I don't see why khtml should be dumbed down to read non conforming websites. Better people complain to the relevant webmasters and boycott any products of said companies, and make sure that the companies understand why their products are being boycotted.

Gone are the days of doing the job right, it's now better to look hot, brag a lot, f--k everything up, and then bitch and blame someone else. Oh, and demand a higher pay than you're worth.

Dave

Reply Score: 5

RE[4]: Do KDE4 will have WebKit?
by yahya on Wed 21st Nov 2007 10:58 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Do KDE4 will have WebKit?"
yahya Member since:
2007-03-29

No - it's because the *vast* majority of websites do NOT conform to W3C standards, they are bastardised to work with IE mongrel browserss that disregard W3C guidelines


So would you say this applies to GMail & friends? All google apps suck with konqueror (even if you change the user agent to get access to the goodies - it just won't work). Would you say this is due to Google's disregard for W3C standards?

And if so - what counts is the user experience. If this sucks, the user will conclude that the product sucks.

And btw: Java/ECMA script performance with KHTML is very poor, given the increased usage of Javascript due to the popularity of AJAX, this is enough of a reason to migrate to webkit.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Do KDE4 will have WebKit?
by anda_skoa on Wed 21st Nov 2007 11:47 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Do KDE4 will have WebKit?"
anda_skoa Member since:
2005-07-07

...even if you change the user agent to get access to the goodies - it just won't work...


Exactly my point. Changing the user agent string will make the site send you wrong data, code that is different from the common form so it suits exactly this very specific browser.

And if so - what counts is the user experience. If this sucks, the user will conclude that the product sucks.


Exactly. I wonder why Google wants their users to believe that their applications suck.

Btw, have you ever had a look at the Google browser check?
Did you see that changing to webkit does NOT change Konqueror being outcast?
Did you see that they check for Safari (the browser) instead of WebKit (the engine)?

https://mail.google.com/mail?view=page&name=browser

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Do KDE4 will have WebKit?
by yahya on Wed 21st Nov 2007 12:21 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Do KDE4 will have WebKit?"
yahya Member since:
2007-03-29

Btw, have you ever had a look at the Google browser check?
Did you see that changing to webkit does NOT change Konqueror being outcast?
Did you see that they check for Safari (the browser) instead of WebKit (the engine)?


If the engine is truely capable of handling the code, than, a bit of cheating (e.g. sending a forged "Safari" user agent string to google) would do no harm.

E.g. I have seen AJAX sites which check for firefox instead of gecko, include some of the Google apps, and the beta AJAX based mail client of the German GMX free mailer. As soon as you adjust the user agent their expectactions, everything works fine, as long as you have Gecko inside. I fail to see, why this should be different with webkit.

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: Do KDE4 will have WebKit?
by anda_skoa on Wed 21st Nov 2007 13:21 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Do KDE4 will have WebKit?"
anda_skoa Member since:
2005-07-07

If the engine is truely capable of handling the code, than, a bit of cheating (e.g. sending a forged "Safari" user agent string to google) would do no harm.


It spoils the browser users' experience if they have to modify settings just to access a site and it increases the likeliness that the site's developers actually start believing that their checks are correct.

I fail to see why it would be benefitial to bend reality just because a bunch of web developers are too lazy for checking the correct part of the user agent string.
Especially since they share this buggy code with others afterwards.

This is probably why Google has their applications on Beta status, because they have still major bugs even in simple code parts like the browser detection code.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Do KDE4 will have WebKit?
by melkor on Thu 22nd Nov 2007 01:31 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Do KDE4 will have WebKit?"
melkor Member since:
2006-12-16

Well, Im not fond of google at the best of times anyways, its typical of monopoly markets to do this sort of thing. Sorry about my grammar, Im at a local internet cafe and the stupid !(*&!(*& keyboard Im using will not allow me to do an inverted comma.

As to java or ecma (sorry, cant do any slashes either, takes me straight to the firefox find tool), do webpages really need this? Your average webpage does NOT, its business that is driving the adoption of this technology, usually for devious intent with their online customers, like hiding data and direct URLs etc etc. The standard of webpage design is horrid these days, fonts too small for people to read, very poor UI design, poor colour choices and the list goes on. Maybe people writing webpages should stop learning all of this new technology, and learn how to create people friendly websites first?

Dave

Reply Score: 1

KONGRATS
by REMF on Wed 21st Nov 2007 08:21 UTC
REMF
Member since:
2006-02-05

It would be a super idea if the people making the suse based KDE4 Live iso would release a version with KDE4 final and suse 10.3 with all the latest patches...............?

Reply Score: 2

KDE 4.0 RC1
by OSGuy on Wed 21st Nov 2007 08:54 UTC
OSGuy
Member since:
2006-01-01

The KDE4 LIVE ISO does not boot on my PC. The booting sequence just skips the CD, same as if there was no CD. Does anyone else has the same problem? Hash is fine.

Reply Score: 1

RE: KDE 4.0 RC1
by OSGuy on Wed 21st Nov 2007 09:45 UTC in reply to "KDE 4.0 RC1"
OSGuy Member since:
2006-01-01

Grammar correction: Does anyone else *HAVE* the same problem? Hash is fine.

Reply Score: 2

Release Early, Release Often
by TheMonoTone on Wed 21st Nov 2007 16:48 UTC
TheMonoTone
Member since:
2006-01-01

Many of the critics saying KDE is still in Alpha may not have used the latest svn build. So let me just say. Its absolutely fantastic. Yes it still has bugs, but the list is growing shorter every day.

Anyways, with FOSS its important that projects release often, release early, to keep up the momentum, userbase, and developer base. Keep a release held too long developers and users start leaving and interest wanes increadibly. That was really starting to happen with KDE 4. So I'm glad someone finally put their foot down and said "this is when we're releasing, get it together." Clearly the KDE team is willing to work hard to get it done to the point where its usable on a daily basis.

Reply Score: 2

My impressions
by Kokopelli on Thu 22nd Nov 2007 16:33 UTC
Kokopelli
Member since:
2005-07-06

I have spent some time with the newest KDE4 desktop and my general impressions are favorable. That said the current incarnation is encouraging from a technology direction standpoint, but really is not usable by me.

I use ultraportable laptops with resolutions of 1024x768 and 800x600. Plasma takes up way too much space. Generally to maximize workspace area I hide the panel in the top right and bind it to display when the mouse hits that corner. The options in System Settings are very sparse compared to kcontrol, without even an option for where to place the panel, much less hide it. I am a recent convert to KDE and the thing that attracted me was the comprehensive ability to customize the interface to match my workflow style. In KDE4 I can not even seem to set new keyboard shortcuts to applications. (I can get to it in system settings but no obvious way to add new ones.)

So 4.0 seems like a nice technology demonstration but it does not qualify as a satisfactory replacement for 3.5.8 desktop. There are just too many features in current that do not have any equivalence in 4.0 for day to day use. It is not even a matter of taking away a few options, right now it seems like almost all options have been removed.

Kudos to the great work that has gone into KDE4 so far. It is encouraging to see the progress that has been made and hopefully the little things that make 3.5.x so nice will filter into the 4.x branch over time.

Edited 2007-11-22 16:36

Reply Score: 1

v How can they call this an RC ?
by pupdawg on Thu 22nd Nov 2007 20:21 UTC
Performance
by J.R. on Sat 24th Nov 2007 13:38 UTC
J.R.
Member since:
2007-07-25

When KDE switched to QT4 we were promised better performance. KDE3 is currently the better (with good margin) on my 512MB memory laptop compared with Gnome and even windows XP. But with the KDE4 RC1 I couldn't even open programs because the computer was all busy and out of memory all the time.

512MB should be enough, and same should a celeronM 1,3GHz CPU, to run a desktop. Otherwise its just like Vista where they assume that everyone got state of the art equipment.

Edited 2007-11-24 13:40

Reply Score: 1

RE: Performance
by superstoned on Sun 25th Nov 2007 10:02 UTC in reply to "Performance"
superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

KDE 4 is most likely going to be a bit heavier than KDE 3.x, but hopefully not too much. It is possible most optimizations are still to come with 4.1 and further, though. And these RC packages (dunno where you got them) often have debugging on - which requires a huge load of memory.

Reply Score: 2

Screenshot fonts
by peterV on Mon 26th Nov 2007 09:32 UTC
peterV
Member since:
2007-11-26

Hello, I'd like to know how the guy who made the screenshot got fonts like that. I installed multiple linux distrobutions and it looks much worse.

Reply Score: 1