Linked by Thom Holwerda on Thu 27th Dec 2007 22:41 UTC, submitted by Patrik Buckau
Debian and its clones "The Debian project is pleased to announce the second update of its stable distribution Debian GNU/Linux 4.0. This update mainly adds corrections for security problems to the stable release, along with a few adjustment to serious problems. Please note that this update does not constitute a new version of Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 but only updates some of the packages included. There is no need to throw away 4.0 CDs or DVDs but only to update against ftp.debian.org after an installation, in order to incorporate those late changes. Those who frequently install updates from security.debian.org won't have to update many packages and most updates from security.debian.org are included in this update."
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Congratulations, Debian
by hitest on Fri 28th Dec 2007 01:24 UTC
hitest
Member since:
2006-10-28

I'm a die-hard Debian user, and a Slacker. I'm very happy to continue to use Debian Linux. Debian Linux is rock-solid, and bullet proof. I heartily recommend it.

Reply Score: 13

RE: Congratulations, Debian
by solca on Fri 28th Dec 2007 03:04 UTC in reply to "Congratulations, Debian"
solca Member since:
2006-05-24

One distro to rule them all.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Congratulations, Debian
by dreamlax on Fri 28th Dec 2007 04:25 UTC in reply to "Congratulations, Debian"
dreamlax Member since:
2007-01-04

I have not met one person who disagrees with the fact that Debian Stable is stable. Outdated sometimes, but never unstable.

Reply Score: 9

RE[2]: Congratulations, Debian
by Bending Unit on Fri 28th Dec 2007 05:40 UTC in reply to "RE: Congratulations, Debian"
Bending Unit Member since:
2005-07-06

Always outdated, I'd say.

Reply Score: 7

RE[3]: Congratulations, Debian
by 6c1452 on Fri 28th Dec 2007 07:49 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Congratulations, Debian"
6c1452 Member since:
2007-08-29

Psst - you can use an 'unstable' branch and always be up to date. And I think there are ones that are actually unstable, too, if you like to live on the edge.


I know I ought to use Debian - have before, and it was great - but there was a repository problem last time I did a clean install so I went with Ubuntu. Figure I'll give it another try when 8.04 comes out.

Reply Score: 2

cushioncritter Member since:
2007-01-12

What "unstable" means recently is that a lot of the packages in the unstable tree have dependency problems. This means that building a complete system from scratch using the unstable tree using 'debootstrap' is possible some days and not possible other days. Usually, a minimal CLI system (100M-150M) can be built almost every day, but a complete X Windows system will often have some packages fail to install, particularly Gnome or KDE. Sometimes the packages can be 'forced' to install by using dpkg to install a prerequisite package and then 'apt get install -f' to "fix" the installation, this occurs when the package maintainers have not properly listed the dependencies for a package well enough for 'apt-get' to do its job, and the maintainers only tested the ability to upgrade from a "release" system and not from a "from scratch" debootstrap system.

For example, currently an IceWM unstable system built using all the latest X.org components will hang on hitting CTRL-ALT-DEL, because IceWM does not work properly with all the other updated X.org packages.

The only way to get the latest X.org components to even be able to test them is adding them to a debootstrap-ed system ("apt-get install xorg"), since upgrading an older install (even of unstable) complains of "broken packages" and has for almost one year now.

With all this said, I have always run an "unstable" system for years now, updated daily, and the value of things with fixes/enhancements far exceeds the very occasional breakage. I did learn when upgrading a critical application, to first try an apt-get upgrade on an unimportant test machine.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Congratulations, Debian
by s_groening on Fri 28th Dec 2007 21:45 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Congratulations, Debian"
s_groening Member since:
2005-12-13

I know I ought to use Debian - have before, and it was great - but there was a repository problem last time I did a clean install so I went with Ubuntu. Figure I'll give it another try when 8.04 comes out.

This makes absolutely no sense.
A Debian 'repository problem' made you switch to Ubuntu, but now you might want to go back to Debian once the new Ubuntu (8.04) comes out?

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Congratulations, Debian
by 6c1452 on Sat 29th Dec 2007 01:12 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Congratulations, Debian"
6c1452 Member since:
2007-08-29

No. A repository problem (I was using netinstall) prevented me from installing Debian at the time that I last did a clean install. At the time I am planning to do my next clean install, which is when Ubuntu 8.04 comes out, I will again try installing Debian.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Congratulations, Debian
by jemmjemm on Fri 28th Dec 2007 10:31 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Congratulations, Debian"
jemmjemm Member since:
2007-08-06

Always outdated, I'd say.


Yo, but that's intentional. For a extremely wide volunteer project like Debian it would be impossible to have bleeding edge and rock-solid stability the same time.

For those who want stable base installation and just some new apps there is always the option to use Stable + Stable Backports + Volatile.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Congratulations, Debian
by pauld on Fri 28th Dec 2007 08:05 UTC in reply to "RE: Congratulations, Debian"
pauld Member since:
2006-02-24

I'm no Debian expert, but I think Debian sticks to version numbers (like for instance Red Hat does) which makes it indeed stable as in "predictable", but then Red Hat does more backporting of packages from newer releases, often to increase its stability.

And sticking with older versions is actually something that I think makes Debian unstable sometimes. A recent example I stumbled upon, was a problem in the OpenISCI initiator: it didn't take me long before I found some bugs that were already solved. Another advantage of the more active backporting that Red Hat does, is that you get to benefit from some new features (like with Xen, being able to run 64-bit next to 32-bit: I'm afraid we'll have to wait for that with Debian for the next stable release? And cyrus 2.3 was released I think just before the freeze of etch, but it still has 2.2 and it seems like it will stay like that. Although during sarge I believe there was an major upgrade from mysql that I was surprised about, that was actually an example where Debian didn't stick to older versions - which is good, but also problematic in this case.
We've had serious problems with kernel images in the past too, problems with (too new) hardware that just were not solved in Debians stock kernels...)

Oh well, that said: I like Debian, I just wished it had the release cycle and freshness/packaging policy of other distributions sometimes. But it serves us really well, for some machines we pick Debian, others get Red Hat (or FreeBSD, or, or...)

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Congratulations, Debian
by SilentStorm on Fri 28th Dec 2007 09:29 UTC in reply to "RE: Congratulations, Debian"
SilentStorm Member since:
2006-09-22

Stable, Testing and Unstable means different things to Debian than other distros.

Stable: It's literally stable. Version numbers don't bump, security patches only. Great for servers and production environments. It's constantly cooked for security && stability and this cooking pays of as we see.

Testing: Your $fav_distro release is Debian testing. Version numbers bump slowly but solid and dependable with no killing security holes. Hundred days of uptime. Sometimes it's a bit outdated (a week or so) but stability pays it off. Great for non-critical / casual desktop.

Unstable: Cutting edge, massively updated but not secure as testing (not to mention stable). Has big security holes sometimes. Great for grabbing latest amarok or kernel if the current one doesn't support a thing or two, nothing more. If you are just curious, update to unstable once in every three months then wait for testing to catch up (catches in ~1 month) if your system is secured using external security mechanisms (firewalls and such).

...and don't forget: debian is not an OOB thing. You make debian what it is. Like Slack, Gentoo or Arch. (I've installed mine as etch beta-1 and it's now lenny. I've cloned it to my office PC instead of installing a fresh one and it's working flawlessly at home and office.)

Also please remember that debian is just a distro which placed itself to the higher, geeker side of the spectrum. They've made their choices and they're very good at them. I beleive that Debian vs. (*buntu, suse, mandriva, etc) comparisons are a bit apples to oranges since the secondary part has different goals than Debian-like ones (geek, technical vs. mainstream, easy to use).

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Congratulations, Debian
by jemmjemm on Fri 28th Dec 2007 10:24 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Congratulations, Debian"
jemmjemm Member since:
2007-08-06

Unstable: Cutting edge, massively updated but not secure as testing (not to mention stable). Has big security holes sometimes.


IMHO security releases are always for stable and unstable (and sometimes for oldstable if needed). Thus unstable is not unsecure. But testing is - because of the time delay in moving packages from unstable to testing (and that's by design).

Reply Score: 2

v RE[3]: Congratulations, Debian
by shapeshifter on Fri 28th Dec 2007 10:28 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Congratulations, Debian"
Anonymous Penguin Member since:
2005-07-06

And if used for desktop than it's no more stable than even Ubuntu.


Without even considering my own experience and that of many other people, who have had endless problems with Ubuntu, what you say is impossible because of one simple reason: Ubuntu is based off Debian unstable!

Reply Score: 6

RE[5]: Congratulations, Debian
by shapeshifter on Fri 28th Dec 2007 18:47 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Congratulations, Debian"
shapeshifter Member since:
2006-09-19

Without even considering my own experience and that of many other people, who have had endless problems with Ubuntu, what you say is impossible because of one simple reason: Ubuntu is based off Debian unstable!


Well, no. Just because the packages are based on unstable doesn't mean they are same as the packages in unstable.
They don't just take Debian unstable, package it and release it.
And having newer release of apps is often beneficial because they often fix bugs and improve on important features.
So on the desktop many packages from Debian stable are kind of undesirable and sometimes unusable.
So no, Ubuntu is not Debian unstable and yes it's as stable as Debian stable on the desktop and for some apps it's much better.

Reply Score: 2

Anonymous Penguin Member since:
2005-07-06

So on the desktop many packages from Debian stable are kind of undesirable and sometimes unusable.


Debian stable has backports, which sometimes are newer than packages in testing.
Have a look at Mepis or Kanotix. Do they look "unusable" to you?

Reply Score: 3

RE[7]: Congratulations, Debian
by Terracotta on Sat 29th Dec 2007 10:07 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Congratulations, Debian"
Terracotta Member since:
2005-08-15

Which again involves some tweaking. The "stable" branch isn't all that stable on the desktop, just because of their packaging policy. By using older versions they have to maintain and bugfix these packages themselves, which is quite impossible to keep up with projects like KDE and GNOME (although GNOME is better supported, the KDE version of the last stable one used to crash like hell, hadn't experienced that since the last kubuntu alpha cd I installed). Their constant 'I want to be in control' policy doesn't serve them well, like what happened with Iceweasel, instead of using the mozilla foundation's resources to solve the bugs in the program they give themselves useless work to solve the same problems.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Congratulations, Debian
by Aeko on Sat 29th Dec 2007 13:24 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Congratulations, Debian"
Aeko Member since:
2007-10-20

And if used for desktop than it's no more stable than even Ubuntu.

Without even considering my own experience and that of many other people, who have had endless problems with Ubuntu, what you say is impossible because of one simple reason: Ubuntu is based off Debian unstable!


Also, on my system (AMD 2000 XP) I found to work faster on Debian than Ubuntu.

Reply Score: 2

Anonymous Penguin Member since:
2005-07-06

I have a very fast system (Q6600, 4GB premium RAM).
I had a very negative experience with 7.10.
Adding some more software, kubuntu-desktop and a few more packages, about 250MB stuff, took *several hours*, not including the download, which was done in a reasonable time.
Also launching Firefox took some 10 minutes, honestly.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Congratulations, Debian
by melkor on Mon 31st Dec 2007 03:05 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Congratulations, Debian"
melkor Member since:
2006-12-16

I'd like to argue that stability point. Tell me, why does Redhat release a Enterprise version (rather than Fedora, which is bleeding edge and aimed at the average desktop user?).

My experiences with Debian (vs. other distributions) are that it is more stable. Sure, you might get a bug or a security issue with an 'old', read: stable, package, big deal. It's usually bug fixed very quickly and backported to Debian stable and you can get it via an apt-get update/upgrade.

As to testing/unstable branches (or experimental for that matter), they are also pretty damn stable from my experiences. When I ran Debian, I ran a mostly stable base, with some testing, unstable and even experimental packages. I rarely had issues, and if they were, they usually were simply package compatibility issues, which is to be expected in all honesty.

All these people bashing Debian because it's "too old" get a grip! If you don't like Debian, or its policy (ie. re: iceweasal) then don't use it! Debian won't miss you. For those of us who like Debian because it's dead stable, and it has policies that respect open source and FSF ideals. Many distributions don't respect the FSF these days.

Oh, and go and take the first Ubuntu release from a few years ago, and try and update it to each subsequent release - see how it breaks. Many old users of Debian successfully update to each new stable release without an issue. That's the difference between Debian and other 'debian based' distributions and real stability.

Dave

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Congratulations, Debian
by MamiyaOtaru on Fri 28th Dec 2007 22:48 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Congratulations, Debian"
MamiyaOtaru Member since:
2005-11-11

I've installed mine as etch beta-1 and it's now lenny. I've cloned it to my office PC instead of installing a fresh one and it's working flawlessly at home and office.

I really like that about Debian. I've done similar stuff. My install started out as Woody, and is now Lenny, many years on. It's moved from one partition to another, one drive to another, and to a completely different machine in the meantime, as well as being cloned to an office machine sort of like you did.

It's gone from kernel 2.4 to 2.6, Xfree86 to Xorg, supermount to hal/udev/pmount, bootsplash to splashy, OSS to ALSA, GCC 2.95 to GCC 4.2 and so on.

I think it's pretty neat I haven't had to do a clean install in something over four years now. It's done great surviving new hardware, and several upgrades - and by this point it is thouroughly mine. The only thing likely to necessitate a new install at this point is a move to 64 bit.

Reply Score: 5

cushioncritter Member since:
2007-01-12

MamiyaOtaru wrote: "My install started out as Woody, and is now Lenny, ... I think it's pretty neat I haven't [ever] had to do a clean install".

A Debian system that started out as Woody and has been upgraded that many times is NOT the same as one installed cleanly from scratch, for example, using debootstrap and then adding packages (apt-get install xorg, apt-get install kde, ...). Actually, the time package maintainers need to spend on the endless permutations of upgrading from whatever ancient version of the packages you started from (why not pre-Woody, i.e. Potato?), is a total waste in my view. And they DO waste time on this, because sometimes you can upgrade an old system to the latest packages but not a newer system. Learning to do a clean, fresh install is actually pretty simple: mkdir mybootstrap, debootstrap http://my_mirror/debian ./mybootstrap, edit/add a few config files like /etc/fstab, add a kernel (I use kernel.org kernels so I can have one from a few weeks ago, not months or years ago, which is good if you are purchasing brand new hardware and want most/all the stuff to work), and you have a fresh current, supported install, not a series of 10,000 upgrades from an ancient install. Now you can tar up the clean install and blast it out to a million machines.

Reply Score: 1

Thanks !
by Aeko on Fri 28th Dec 2007 07:17 UTC
Aeko
Member since:
2007-10-20

Well. I use Debian at work, to perform tasks than the Windows Server doesn't arrive (some services), that we don't need to pay (mySQL, mail, web development) in a old computer (Pentium 120).

I just works, and if you don't leave the stable version it always works. For instance, tried kernel .23 and found problems with Samba.

For me, something unstable and tricky isn't something updated. Is something experimental, not usable at work.

Reply Score: 2

......
by islander on Fri 28th Dec 2007 12:06 UTC
islander
Member since:
2007-04-11

A 1000 frenchmen cant be wrong.I think I am going to give debian a try to replace Mandriva on my home server.I keep reading too much good comments about it not to.

Reply Score: 2

Stable bug count
by Luis on Fri 28th Dec 2007 12:43 UTC
Luis
Member since:
2006-04-28

With this release they added the STABLE branch (blue line) to the bug count chart they keep, and interestingly we can see that after the release, the bug count went up again and it's now almost the same as TESTING (green line), even if TESTING has more packages.

Yes, this is only the number of bugs reported, so also more usage means more reports. But still...

http://bugs.debian.org/release-critical/

It seems it's not possible to get rid of all bugs no matter what you do. We have to live with them. As long as they don't bite you, that's ok...

Reply Score: 2

Congratulations Debian!
by JPisini on Fri 28th Dec 2007 13:29 UTC
JPisini
Member since:
2006-01-24

I can only speak for myself I love Debian it is a great distro and I use it or distros based on it all the time.

Keep up the great work.

Reply Score: 5

Funny
by patrick_ on Fri 28th Dec 2007 16:07 UTC
patrick_
Member since:
2006-03-02

Very funny. Last night I decided to dump my Gentoo install of 3+ years for Debian.

I moved from Linux to NetBSD a month or so ago. I love it: small, fast, minimal, clean. However, support for some of the apps that I like to use just isn't quite there.

Gentoo was just getting too hard to maintain. First I thought the "compile everything" idea was good. I liked it for a while, but most of it was just a waste unless I needed to modify some of the source, or it was a very CPU/RAM intensive app. Plus, a lot of the apps just take way too long on my P4 3.2GHz. It's not worth it for me. I just wanna code and not have to wait for programs to compile, or for "emerge" to even begin doing work (python).

So I'll be making the move to Debian in a few days. Wish me luck.

Reply Score: 3

I laugh
by sdotsen on Fri 28th Dec 2007 22:29 UTC
sdotsen
Member since:
2007-12-20

I laugh at the folks who live on the edge, bleeding edge that is. I have many friends who has to have the latest and the greatest, yet wonder why their server isnt stable. Does it really matter that you have to run apache 2.2.345 when 2.2.2 is fine (ok i made those numbers up). Damn kiddies and their wishes. I'm an old timer and love having my server run rock solid.

Which is why I prefer freebsd to fedora or ubuntu but when i do run linux, i prefer debian!

Reply Score: 5

Keep up the good work Debian
by solidsnake on Sat 29th Dec 2007 05:15 UTC
solidsnake
Member since:
2006-06-04

I recently had to switch my main Desktop back to XP ;)
Fortunately my home server box still runs good ol' Debian Etch. I installed it the day etch was released and it has remained stable ever since. Not once have I had to reset it for some nasty error. Setting everything up for NAT, Samba etc. went quite smoothly and transfering all of my files to the server's hard drive was a cinch. I typically stream music and movies to my Geexbox setup from my debian server too. I know I am only using a fraction of this OS's power but I like the fact that there is a lot of freedom to use it as I please.

Edited 2007-12-29 05:16

Reply Score: 2

uh
by linuxsuzieq on Sun 30th Dec 2007 03:22 UTC
linuxsuzieq
Member since:
2007-12-30

Well, I wish Debian would put more effort toward the 'testing' flavor but that is just a wish. Debian can keep doing what debian does and I will be using 'testing' same as I have since woody was 'testing'...

Fooled around with others and will continue to do so but my main ride is and I suspect will always be debian (testing)!

Reply Score: 2