A few months ago Nokia released the third iteration of their Internet Tablet N-series, the N810. This model has some new hardware characteristics, and a brand new version of the Maemo interface. Update: I designed a clean background for you, to be used with the "Echo" theme. Download it here, check out how it looks like here.
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Member since:
2007-07-03
Member since:2005-06-28
Well, the OS looks more modern, and has some features that work better than in WinMob, e.g. IM and VoIP. On the other hand though, WinMob has fewer bugs, it has a more mature interface (albeit ugly), and it has more apps that you can count.
Hardware feature-wise I prefer the N810, as most WinMob phones are still stuck to QVGA resolution and not enough storage.
Edited 2008-03-22 09:07 UTC
Member since:2007-09-06
If you look at the basic devices, they are meant for different things.
WinCE (er.. mobile) is still a full blown PDA and smart phone. The N810 is between an internet tablet and a umpc.
WinCE has the full library of software due to the time it's been around while Maemo is very quickly growing a library but it's the new kid on the block.
WinCE has Microsft behind it so marketing it good and you know it will be designed to work with Exchange. Maemo is a linux distribution by Nokia that is mostly open source so it has a whole world of flexability.
Maemo is based on Debian so the geeks in the crowd can cross compile there .DEBs for the mips cpu if they want. It's basically a gtk/gnome user interface for the really geeky in the croud.
WinCE has the word/excel/powerpoint combo availible for it already. Maemo has gnumeric and the GPE todo/calendar/contacts/notes/timesheet suite which is evolving but very usable and easily syncronized with Evolution and the google apps.
Meomo installs and uninstalls are handled through the package manager so you simply add the repositories (there is an easy add website), search and install. WinCE follows the usual hunt the internet for the program, download it and install it through the paired desktop (download.com helps though).
On advantage I make use of is the flexability of a Linux based OS like Maemo. I have actually partitioned my SDHC card; large fat32, 1.5 gig ext3, 1.5 gig ext3. The first is for storage space the way any SDHC would be used. The second is my partition for IT2008 fully installed and configed the way I like it. The third is my partition for IT2007 fully installed as I had it before the new OS version was available. There is also the internal memory where the clean "out of box" IT2008 image remains. If I want my old OS install, I boot the N800/N810 with it. If I want my new OS, it's the default boot. If I somehow chew both OS installs, I have the base internal OS as my system restore environment. My PDA/IT is a tripple boot; bwahahahaha!
OpenSSH handles my remote shell, scp, sftp needs too and from the device. I have the MSF framework and some other auditing tools installed. Bluetooth tools and phone connectivity and some other things that just don't exist in the WinCE world. (I've never seen Metasploit on a Windows device anyhow)
Really, it depends on what you want it for. If you post your specific needed functions then I or someone else can probably give you a better response.
In my case, I love my N800 and Maemo. If I had the budget, I'd upgrade too the N810 with physical keyboard and built in GPS radio. If I needed a larger keyboard and full blown Mandriva then I'd go EeePC. Really, I'd need a PDA size device (N800 for now), a notebook size device (EeePC or ThinkPad, Toughbook depending.
Member since:2005-07-06
what dev tools do winmob use again? visual studio with a cross-compiler?
if so, its not hard to understand how there can be so many apps for it out there. even more so if microsoft have been their typical self and maintained backwards compatibility uber alles...
anyways, i think development for maemo runs into a bit of the same issue as the dev kit for iphone. while i recently heard about a vmware image that had been set up, i think one needed to set up a special dev environment inside a linux distro. and the setup was anything but cakewalk iirc. similarly the iphone requires a mac, but the install is at least simpler from what i understand. so no matter how you spin it, both have a more limited resource of developers then one have for windows mobile.
also, from what i see the 770 on up have been embraced as a sysadmin tool by the geeks, while the iphone is fashion item number 1 of the tech market. so basically one is looking at different levels of mindshare.
still, there are some nice tricks coming out of that maemo geek sphere. people have gotten the usb controller on both the N800 and N810 to act as client, otg or host. the latter means that you can plug just about anything into the usb port of the device and the device can make use of it, given the right kernel module/driver loaded. and people seems to be compiling new ones all the time.
and just recently nokia launched a video showing off a system developed that can show video in HD using wifi or usb. while it will probably not satisfy purists (i smell compression in use) this little device may well turn out to be quite the computer.
now if they where to launch variants using cortex A8 and later A9 based ARMs under the hood, and fix their "delete all internal memory" issue when doing firmware upgrades (promised in the next one, iirc), it could very well turn out be a computer in your pocket. just hook it up to a screen and keyboard (bluetooth hid keyboards supported out of the box these days) and access the net. you more or less bring the heart of your desktop with you 
Member since:2007-09-06
A fully upgradeable OS instead of clean start firmware would be great. There are still a few things that my Palm T5 did really well that I haven't replaced fully on Maemo either. It will all come provided Nokia doesn't do anything trastic to the OS.
I'd love to see a bridge between QT4 and GTK too. KeepassX is available for Maemo now but only works with the 810 since Keepass needs QT4 and the current maemo version of QT is not able to make use of the onscreen keboard us N800 owners are limited too. If some developer can bridge the GTK onscreen keyboard over to QT4 then KeepassX would be on my N800 instantly and my same password database could be used across all platforms I come in contact with (Win32/osX/*nix/Maemo).
The built in GPS made me want an upgrade to the N810 but the usable QT4/KeepassX is almost enough to make me blow the budget and hope I can get some of it back for the N800 on ebay.
Member since:
2006-01-04
I am all for choice and all .. but at some point too much choice will scare people away.
Limo, Qtopia, Maemo, Android, Openmoko etc. .. there are too many platforms and not one gets enough developer traction .. just look at the iPhone how things could be ( i dont like Apple .. but the iPhone has a lot of things right ).
I really hope Nokia will push Qtopia .. even on the N810.
I would like to see Qtopia or Android be the major player in the Linux Mobile space.
Member since:2007-01-19
I wouldn't bet on it, at least not for the time being. I had the opportunity to attend a business meeting with the N810 product manager over at Nokia just a few days after their purchase of Trolltech, and according to him, they had no plans regarding Qtopia and N810.
Member since:2005-12-01
I wouldn't bet on it, at least not for the time being. I had the opportunity to attend a business meeting with the N810 product manager over at Nokia just a few days after their purchase of Trolltech, and according to him, they had no plans regarding Qtopia and N810. "
Just because someone at Nokia said they have "no plans" to use Qtopia, doesn't mean they aren't looking into it. Plans change.
Member since:2007-01-19
Well, I did write "for the time being", didn't I? Of course plans changes, but you will probably not see any news regarding Qtopia on the N810 for another few months. That said, having Qtopia running on the N810 would be truly great.
Member since:2006-01-01
Why would qtopia be a good idea? I had a zaurus sl5500 before my N800, and it was a lot more limited. I tried the qtopia 2 image provided by Trolltech, and it was okay, but it had a different abi and zero apps ran on it. Opie etc are *not* qtopia and their apps use a different abi to the qtopiia 1.x line. Qtopia is fragmented and stagnated!!! Legacy apps (qtopia 1.x) require a gcc 2.9x compiler. Bad idea. Then of course Opie uses 3.x iirc, so a lot better off - but out of Trolltech's remit. Not sure what the Trolltech qtopia 2.x uses, but without apps, does it really matter?
Member since:2007-08-15
Member since:2007-09-06
But how will we ever choose what car to buy and drive with all this choice.. it's too much..
Or maybe, the user can focus on the device and features it provides rather than the embedded OS. The people who will focus on the embedded OS are not usually the type that are scared by choice.
Member since:2006-01-04
Well, if you had looked closely at all the choices you would have seen that most of them are not really usefull/flexible or dont even have some basic apps.
So your car analogy is quite wrong. Most cars mainly offer the same thing. Transportation.
A mobile linux device should for example connect to exchange or something like that..
I am quite sure if there werent like 10 different choices a whole stack of usefull apps would evolve way faster than it is at the moment.
What this basically means is that FOSS is giving Apple and MS an even bigger headstart and can play the catch up game for much longer.
Member since:2007-09-01
Member since:2007-09-06
the GPE suite on Maemo connects to Google's apps and to Evolution on the desktop. I think OpenSync is working on it too which would open it up to all kinds of devices for syncronization.
As for Exchange server.. I'm not going to hold my breath for such a thing from MS. Who knows, maybe the version after the 310 will have anough business asking Nokia that they'll do like RIM's blackberry connection to Exchange Server.
If Exchange is a required function than currently your looking at WinCE and Blackberry.
As for the car analogy; a supercar does not do the same as a pickup truck. That pickup is not in the same class as a transport truck and neither compare to a box van directly. A VW beetle is not the same as a Prius which is not exactly like a Smartcar. Desile is different from Gas. Sure, cars and trucks all have stearing and breaks but there are drastic differences between types of cars and brands of cars.
The selection of cars or trucks is far greater than selecting from smartphones, PDA or UMPC. It still comes down to figuring out what functions you want and seeing what gadget fits the needs. Users are generally looking for what the gadget does not what OS runs behind what they are actually using. How many people really care that Motorola used a Linux kernel behind the programs on the Razr and child generations of the product line? Is anyone looking at a sidekick and saying "oh, but it's not brans X software inside". Even wit the iPhone it's an Apple phone not a osX box. The chosen software platform is only a concern for the manufacturer and us geeks.
Member since:2006-02-02
GPE Suite is a joke on N8x0.
In GPE contacts, you can't send a mail if you tap on contacts mail address. You even can't copy/paste any information.
GPE calendar is a 'bit' unstable. Go to agenda view and back, then bang boom bang, GPE calender crashes instantly.
Pimlico dates (an 'alternative' for GPE calendar) doesn't have alarms.
N8x0/Maemo isn't a system for serious PIM atm. The hardware/dimension is perfect for a really serious PIM, especially with the N810.
But it lacks the PIM software.
Member since:2005-07-24
I'm a big believer in the 35/35/30 rule. Two evenly matched major players which are clearly the dominant players, with a combined 70% share of the market, with the remaining 30% being a bubbling cauldron of smaller players with new, and possibly radical, ideas. This gives us a decent level of standardization. We still enjoy the benefits of healthy competition between the two major players. And one never knows what might rise up out of that cauldron.
Standardization/Competition/Innovation (Real innovation, btw. Not that cheap imitation you see on all the shelves, these days.)
Feel free to adjust the numbers to taste. There is nothing magical about 35/35/30. They're just what seem ideal to me.
Member since:
2006-01-08
Given that the thing is sold as an Internet Tabler, how about a few more words on the Internet experience? How does it handle complex web pages (in terms of performance, compatibility should be no problem now that it's based on Mozilla's html module). Does it bog down often during browsing? When you open a few tabs simultaneously? On Flash-heavy sites? Can you disable Flash per-site? Is the scrolling and zooming smooth (also during page loads/renderings)? How does it compare to the previous Opera based browser? Or to the iPod Touch (which, let's face it, is the closest competitor if you want a pocket internet tablet)?
Member since:2005-06-28
>how about a few more words on the Internet experience?
I use my N800 instead of my Mac laptop when I am on vacations in Reno, NV (the hotels there have both ethernet and WiFi). This says much how well it does.
>How does it handle complex web pages
It handles them fine, although very heavy pages like Gizmodo and Engadget are really slow.
>Does it bog down often during browsing?
Depends on the page. OSNews is fine. Slashdot is so-so. Engadget and Gizmodo are slower (1.4 MBs on their frontpage with many ads).
>When you open a few tabs simultaneously?
Only if the pages are lightweight.
>On Flash-heavy sites?
Depends on the Flash version. Youtube works, Vimeo doesn't. Again, if the Flash is huge and too complex it will be really slow.
>Can you disable Flash per-site?
No. It's all or nothing. And the browser forgets that I disabled Javascript in my previous session and re-enables it when I restart the browser...
>Is the scrolling and zooming smooth (also during page loads/renderings)?
Depends on the lightweightness of the page. And you ask for way too much on a 400 Mhz "PDA" to be smooth at rendering time. Although it is pretty smooth.
>How does it compare to the previous Opera based browser?
Personally I believe that Opera was faster.
>Or to the iPod Touch
The iPhone's and iPod Touch's browser is faster in my opinion, but they also enjoy a faster CPU, a tighter implementation, AND a lack of Flash support (which as you know can make things slow).
Edited 2008-03-22 10:29 UTC
Member since:2006-01-08
Thanks. So would you say that the iPod gives an overall better browsing experience (at least, if you don't need Flash)? That would be a disappointment to me.
What Apple got exactly right was to recognize that on a limited screen device, you're going to do a lot of zooming and panning, and they heavily optimized those operations, which are usually quite smooth on the iPhone/Touch. They also bog down and stutter occasionally, but I think they're close to the limits of what you can do with a low-power ARM. Although it true that the Nokia needs zooming and panning it a bit less due to the higher res screen, they're still pretty high on my priority list.
I really want to like the N810, as it does many things better than the iPod. It uses a user swappable Nokia phone battery. It has Bluetooth, so I can tether it to my phone internet plan. It has a hardware keyboard, so words that aren't in the dictionary are much easier to enter than on the iPod. If only the browser is as good as Apple's, the N810 would be close to perfect IMO.
One last thing. Do you know the limits of its video performance? Can it play full-res (800x480) without dropping frames, in any encoding?
Member since:2005-06-28
> So would you say that the iPod gives an overall better browsing experience (at least, if you don't need Flash)?
Not really. I would say they are similar, but I think I prefer the full view of the N-series.
>It uses a user swappable Nokia phone battery.
It is swappable, but it's not a phone battery, it's much bigger than that.
>Do you know the limits of its video performance? Can it play full-res (800x480) without dropping frames, in any encoding?
Absolutely not. The DSP on the N-series was never used in its full potential by either Nokia or the hackers so there are many limitations: from the exact resolutions that work on the device, to hardware scaling and smoothing. Your best bet on the N-series is QVGA 320x240 XViD file at 30 fps (although you might want to consider 24 or 15 for even smoother performance). The iPod has much better video performance, it can playback h.264 versions that the N-series can't, and it can do so up to 640x480 at 30fps, without sweating at all. On the other hand, the N-series supposedly support more formats (although as I said in the review, I had many videos that were in the right format/resolution and didn't play right).
If you want a good internet experience and VoIP and IM and email and hardware keyboard, go with the N810. If you want a much, much better multimedia experience and "ok" on everything else, go with the iPhone or iPod Touch. However, remember, when the first apps for the iPod/iPhone will come out in June, you should expect thousands of apps by December. But don't expect more than 350 for the N810. So it all depends what you want.
Member since:2006-01-08
> It is swappable, but it's not a phone battery, it's much bigger than that.
It uses a BP-4L, which is also in the E61 and E90. Though you might argue that those are too big to qualify as phones anymore 
> Your best bet on the N-series is QVGA 320x240 XViD file at 30 fps (although you might want to consider 24 or 15 for even smoother performance).
Such a waste of that hi-res screen.
> If you want a good internet experience and VoIP and IM and email and hardware keyboard, go with the N810. If you want a much, much better multimedia experience and "ok" on everything else, go with the iPhone or iPod Touch.
But I want it all
As it is, I think the Nokia is closer to what I want. And features like replaceable battery, keyboard, Bluetooth are things that Apple is just not going to do on the Touch, while better video and browser performance is something that Nokia could do in a next iteration. Too bad they probably won't, as the N8x0 seem to be rather low priority products to Nokia, while the iPhone/Touch are flagship Apple product, that they dedicate a lot of resources and manpower to.
Member since:2007-05-15
Eugenia,
I get excellent video using 400x240 which the Wiki also advises. I never feel I am missing anything, but I do wish the resolution went higher.
If someone wants the best multimedia experience in a Palm size device, the first one I would recommend would not be the iPhone or iPod Touch but the Archos line with their huge storage.
Member since:2005-07-06
Member since:2005-07-06
when it comes to engadget i find that turning images of help greatly. but then i just read the rss feed most of the time, and even there with images off (option hidden in the settings of each feed).
still, if i want to see a image from a article, one can have it load. sadly, most article image "frames" seems to collapse into the size of a single character when the image isnt shown. and showing some kind of placeholder is a nono in the html specs, for whatever reason.
as for flash, there are a extension (the browser is basically firefox so you have "classics" like addblock and greasemonkey on hand) recently ported that puts in a "play" button for flash elements. on my N800 its been a bit hit and miss, tho. and with the recent release of mytube (a python based frontend for a commandline app called youtube-dl) one can download/stream the youtube stuff, and even perform searches.
and yes, the opera browser was faster. but it was also cutting corners behind the scene to save on workload iirc. most of the time it worked, but sometimes...
still, the browser ui is made so that i think they can slot in and out any html render engine. if the openmoko people and others working on a gtk framework for webkit, gets things working, one may well get a port of it. but thats just guesswork on my part from when i tried out gecko on a 770, alongside the opera engine.
Member since:2007-09-06
The screen is very readable with a sharp high resolution. The packaged browser is very capable and includs flash support along with the rest of the usual website "features". I've often read OSNews, Tech Republic and Youtube or Facebook on it easily. You will have to scroll with longer pages but in terms of complex website support; it should be fine.
Member since:
2005-08-29
Member since:2005-06-28
For many reasons.
1. This OS is not something that carriers allow, because carriers want specific things on their phones. By not having carrier contracts, this product would be doomed and Nokia would be several millions in.
2. It would eat their S60 platform and compete with themselves (S60 4.0 will be touchscreen based).
3. There is not enough time to write all the phone apps.
4. It would cost even more.
5. It would make the device bigger after adding a big camera there.
Member since:2005-07-06
Member since:2007-09-06
Member since:
2006-01-01
What you are saying about usb isn't quite correct.
RE: how the 8x0 has both usb peripheral mode and host mode, the usb chipset they used supports usb otg (on the go) which is soft switchable between host, peripheral and otg mode (otg mode auto detects and switches to the right mode.) The 800's connector is non standard for this application and therefore it is quite hard to find otg adapters that auto switch. Mine, for my 800, doesn't and so I need to do it manually.
RE: The host mode; no, the community tried to hack it in to IT OS2007, but *failed*. OS 2008 had it enabled in the kernel by Nokia. The community then worked out how the mode switching worked. But this isn't rocket science for the 810 (see below why). The 800 was trickier because the connector is non standard for the application it is used for.
RE: Nokia changing the connector, well they are using the correct one. For usb-otg they are using the correct connector. The mini usb one is not recomended for this application.
Member since:2005-06-28
Member since:2006-01-01
I use it for extra storage (usb mass storage), and keyboard (as usb keyboards are easy to find and cheap as chips.) I have a lovely naano keyboard I now use for IM and email at home and the 800 is still really compact and easy to travel with. Bluetooth sucks power like mad. Powered mini hub solves power consumption issues.
Member since:2005-06-28
Member since:2006-01-01
Having re-read your comment - mini usb is supposedly not standard fo usb otg. If you don't care abouut host mode and Nokia supply a cable, where is the issue? I have only ever connectedd my N800 to my desktop a couple of times. it's a pointless exercise, because all installations are via wifi, plus samba shares just appear, so copying files is dead easy.
Member since:2005-06-28
MiniUSB might not be standard for otg, but it is as standard as it goes for a USB cable in general. There are more mini-usb cables out there on shops that there are for microUSB. And it's important to be able to find one easily when you are traveling and you forgot the nokia cable at home.
As for connecting to a PC, it is more common than you think. Most people don't even know how to use samba, so all their file transfers are happening in USB transfer mode. Plus, it's faster anyway. I bet that USB transfer is far more common than trying to use a geek-style hacked USB host thingie. NORMAL people don't do that kind of thing. You think too much in terms of your own geek self when you say what you say, while it is my job to view the product from the Joe User's point of view.
So, let's please close this thread on USB. There is not much more to say. There are the geeks who want cool stuff, and then there are the normal people -- there are more of those-- who just use the device to its specifications and nothing more.
Edited 2008-03-22 12:05 UTC
Member since:2007-09-06
I spent a bit of time when I first got my device but quicly realized that with Wifi installs and OpenSSH for any other linking needs the only reason to have a "paired" desktop by cable is for firmware updates.
Wifi, Samba and OpenSSH cover all the needs I can dream up so far. It is so very nice that Samba shares are detected with IT2008 too.
Member since:2005-07-06
Member since:
2006-01-08
The thing that concerned me most for browsing was this
"Where the N810 is slow and pokey, the iPod Touch is lightning fast, and where the Nokia's interaction is fiddly and hesitant (such as clicking and dragging), the iPod's is natural and responsive.
from http://the.taoofmac.com/space/blog/2008/03/08/2245
I found the Touch only barely adequate, rather than lightning fast when I tried it. Of course, it's probably the best we can expect on a 412Mhz ARM that consumes less than 0.5W. But I don't think I would like to use the N810 if it's significantly slower than that. I'm guessing that the UI and Mozilla browser on the Nokia are simply heavier than what Apple uses, and that they have spent far less work on optimization, as the Nokia CPU is a 400Mhz ARM, which should be barely slower than the iPod's.
Edited 2008-03-22 13:47 UTC
Member since:2005-07-06
i recently read that the iphone is also packing a 3D/GPU chip under the hood. its most likely being used to assist in the rendering of the interface to help with smoothness.
hell, i think i read ones that there are double buffer issues on the N8x0. could be from using GTK, could be something else, i dont know.
Member since:2007-09-06
Member since:
2006-01-16
Member since:2005-06-28
It supports HSP/HFP, but not A2DP/AVRCP. I just tried it with a brand new BT stereo headset I received via Fedex 30 minutes ago. The music does go through though, but it's in mono.
However, it's possible to hack your way through it: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=667#c11
Edited 2008-03-22 22:11 UTC
Member since:2006-01-16
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2006-01-06
I'm looking forward to this new device (openpandora.org) Clamshell design with thumb keyboard and dual analog controllers and 2 shoulder buttons. Touch screen. Even better it uses the OMAP 3540 chipset with a PowerVR SGX accelerator, estimated to run ~gamecube speeds. 4000mAh battery. Dual SDHC slots. Probably about $320 or so when done.
Be interesting to see how this ends up comparing with the nokias
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2005-07-06
Member since:
2006-01-10
I received my n810 a week ago, and it's been great. Sometimes it can get a little sluggish while web browsing (what else do you expect from Mozilla?), but so far I'm enjoying it, and with Kagu as my music player, oggs are great. I can even ssh into my desktop if I need to, since I added the openssh package. Handwriting recognition is also a huge bonus over the Apple offerings, along with the SDHC slot (32+GB cards in a few months, anyone?)
Now, I'm also watching the qtablet project (code.google.com/p/qtablet), which is Qtopia for the n8x0 series. Without the burden of X, it might be quite snappy.