Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 14th Apr 2008 17:47 UTC, submitted by Brain
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Welcome Back
by qroon on Mon 14th Apr 2008 18:22 UTC
qroon
Member since:
2005-10-21

Door! ;)

Reply Score: 4

Nice :)
by zegenie on Mon 14th Apr 2008 19:09 UTC
zegenie
Member since:
2005-12-31

It's not like we haven't all been thinking that exact thing ;)

Nice one! And nice to see the door again ;)

Reply Score: 3

omg
by Andre on Mon 14th Apr 2008 19:52 UTC
Andre
Member since:
2005-07-06

omg....omfg... it's...a....door! omg!

Reply Score: 1

spelling error
by panzi on Mon 14th Apr 2008 20:00 UTC
panzi
Member since:
2006-01-22

You write "Scheiße" with a "ß" (sharp s), because "ei" is a diphthong. ;P
For anyone who wonders: It's german for "shit".

Reply Score: 1

RE: spelling error
by righard on Mon 14th Apr 2008 20:10 UTC in reply to "spelling error"
righard Member since:
2007-12-26

You can substitute 'ß' with 'ss'. So it is correct.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: spelling error
by Thom_Holwerda on Mon 14th Apr 2008 20:52 UTC in reply to "RE: spelling error"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

You can substitute 'ß' with 'ss'. So it is correct.


I wanted to use the ß, but the font I use doesn't have the character. Hence, I decided to use the double s method. Tut mir leid, aber ich kann's auch nicht schöner machen ;) .

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: spelling error
by Doc Pain on Mon 14th Apr 2008 21:06 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: spelling error"
Doc Pain Member since:
2006-10-08

Tut mir leid, aber ich kann's auch nicht schöner machen ;) .


Couldn't you draw an ß by yourself? Es sei Ihnen jedoch verziehen, mein Herr, in Anbetracht der Schönheit Ihres gar wohlfeinen Gemäldes humoresken Inhaltes. :-)

I should take some of the suggested drugs in order not to notuce the missing ß, but working antiautistica haven't been invented yet. :-)

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: spelling error
by Doc Pain on Mon 14th Apr 2008 21:02 UTC in reply to "RE: spelling error"
Doc Pain Member since:
2006-10-08

You can substitute 'ß' with 'ss'. So it is correct.


You can, however, if ß is not present (for example on non-german keyboards or on a teletype), put any ß back into ss, that's right. (It's obvious: an ß replaces an individable ss.) In Switzerland, the ß isn't used, instead, any ss reamains ss (e. g. Strasse instead of Straße). But if you're refering to the german language, the use of the ß ligature is required for correctness.

To explicitely force the use of ß where no ß is available, it's possible to use sz (e. g. Strasze instead of Straße); this form is mostly advised in cases where you need to differentiate between ss and ß, for example in names of persons. The combination sz does not appear in reality that much so it can easily be used to indicate ß in a name.

A good example why ß and ss aren't the same are the words "die Masse" (the mass, the matter) and "die Maße" (the dimensions). In order to indicate this difference without being able to use the ß, the latter one could be written "die Masze", too. But as I mentioned before, this special isn't used very often.

Wow, I'm sounding like a teacher... :-)

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: spelling error
by righard on Mon 14th Apr 2008 21:09 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: spelling error"
righard Member since:
2007-12-26

Thanks for the info, I thought it did not matter at all. (btw, on non-german keyboard you can usually still make a ß (alt+b on my Finnish and alt+s on my international keyboard )

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: spelling error
by Doc Pain on Mon 14th Apr 2008 22:04 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: spelling error"
Doc Pain Member since:
2006-10-08

Thanks for the info, I thought it did not matter at all.


It's a fine diffference. Fine but existing. Ligatuation and typesetting is somewhat special in german. But you're right, in this case it doesn't matter, my friendly note was just caused by the urge of correctness. ::-)

(btw, on non-german keyboard you can usually still make a ß (alt+b on my Finnish and alt+s on my international keyboard )


On my US Sun keyboard, I can press Compose s s to get an ß. A friend of mine has a swedish keyboard where ß is possible, too. But as Thom mentioned, the ß wasn't present in the font he used. There are many requirements for a good internationalisation.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: spelling error
by righard on Tue 15th Apr 2008 00:47 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: spelling error"
righard Member since:
2007-12-26

Well, and if you have a explanation why we Dutch call it a 'ringel-s' (which must mean the same in German), I think I know everything about that letter ;-) (that's actually bugging me for years )

Edited 2008-04-15 00:49 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: spelling error
by Doc Pain on Tue 15th Apr 2008 11:39 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: spelling error"
Doc Pain Member since:
2006-10-08

Well, and if you have a explanation why we Dutch call it a 'ringel-s' (which must mean the same in German), [...]


This may be due to the diversion of round-s / final-s and long-s / between-s in the Fraktura type font. The Eszett is a ligature of long-s and round-s, which has a ringle or curly shape, while the long-s looks like an f (Eff) without the horizontal bar. The long-s is placed within words, the round-s at the end of a word or a part of a word that would form an own word.

To give an example, let's assune the f is a long-s and the s is a round-s: then, we write the word Pafswort (en: password), and because we cannot divide the fs (ss) - not Pas-swort - we type Paßwort. Dividable ss would be typed as ff (two long-s), for example Kaffe (cash register), because we can divide Kas-se.

I don't know exactly if HTML allows the use of a long-s, at least I don't have a special key for it on the keyboard.

This is very easy and understandable from the history of this fine ligature that improves readability.

[...] I think I know everything about that letter ;-) (that's actually bugging me for years )


Attention, the Eszett is a ligature, not a letter. The German alphabet has 26 letters, not 27. :-)

There are other ligatures (ck, ch, ff, fi, fl, ffl) that for example LaTeX can handle very well. There are furthermore diacritics or umlauts (ä, ö, ü) that aren't latters, too.

Reply Score: 2

RE: spelling error
by Doc Pain on Mon 14th Apr 2008 20:12 UTC in reply to "spelling error"
Doc Pain Member since:
2006-10-08

You write "Scheiße" with a "ß" (sharp s), because "ei" is a diphthong. ;P


Your note is correct, but the explaination is wrong. Let me enlighten you. :-)

"Scheiße" is written with the Eszett ligature - ß - because two s meet that cannot be divided. Rule: Individable ss are typeset as ß. This has nothing to do with the "ei" being diphtong. Furthermore, to call the Eszett a "sharp s" is usual, but incorrect. The german language does not feature a diversion between "soft s" and "sharp s" in the written form. The Fraktura font types featured a "sound s" and a "long s" which are the two ones that meet here - and they are ligatuated into an Eszett. In most fonts you can see this, too.

Welcome to PISA. :-)

For anyone who wonders: It's german for "shit".


Richtig. :-)

Reply Score: 2

RE: spelling error
by orfanum on Tue 15th Apr 2008 06:32 UTC in reply to "spelling error"
orfanum Member since:
2006-06-02

Hmm, not in Switzerland:

http://german.about.com/library/weekly/aa092898.htm

Edited: sorry folks, must remember to read whole thread before posting...

Edited 2008-04-15 06:33 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: spelling error
by Doc Pain on Tue 15th Apr 2008 12:14 UTC in reply to "RE: spelling error"
Doc Pain Member since:
2006-10-08

Allow me to get off-topic.



The article contains many untrue things.

First of all, the rule to use ß or ss does not consider the "length" of vocals because this is due to dialects. For example, in Bavaria "Spaß" (joy) is spoken with a "short vocal" - pr. shpuss - so it would be written "Spass", in opposite, in Hamburg is is spoken with a "long vocal", - pr. shpaarse - so it would be written "Spaß" there. This is one of the main reason why almost nobody is able to understand the correct use of ss or ß anymore. Furthermore, there are words that - following the "volcal length rule", would be written with ss, but they are written with a single s, for example, "Zeugnis" (cvertificate) - pr. tsoygniss - is not written "Zeugniss", allthough the stupid rule would imply it.

Traditionally, the rule to select between ss and ß is this: If an ss cannot be divided, ß is used.

During the continued the newspeak reforms this rule has been extended. There are many different rules, one of the "famous" ones is: After a vocal, there is s, ss or ß. After some "short vocals" there is ss, after other ones, there is only s. This rule complicates the tradidional rule, which is first used to turn undividable ss into ß, and then comes the "new" rule and turns some of these cases back into ss.

This rule (Heyse's ruling for typesetting S) had been in use in Austria more than 100 years ago, but has been abandoned soon because it simply caused too many errors. The Nazis tried to revive Heyse's rule, but failed.

According the legal situation in Germany: The federal constitutional court (Bundesverfassungsgericht) ruled in 1998 (1 BvR 1640 / 97) that the use of the "new" rules isn't mandatory for everyone. That's why many newspapers and authors are still using the unified orthography (standard orthography) instead of "newspeak" (common term in German: Neusprech, pr. noyshprash). So anyone is free to write as he likes. So if I like to not capitalize any words, it's completely okay, or if I don't want to use any ß, it's okay, too - in a legal sense. By the way, this implies something strange: If the free choice of orthography (sentence 4) is a confirmed right, every pupil could complain about a mark he got for spelling errors and reply: "This limits my rights, you have to change it!" Germany is a strange country... :-)

Of course, this has no implications to Switzerland (which you mentioned) because in Switzerland, the ß isn't used at all. For example, this means there is no written division between "Masse" (the mass, the matter) and "Masse" (the dimensions), for the latter one, "Maße" is used in Germany and Austria. For Switzerland, this means you need to conclude the meaning from the complete sentence. You know a similar procedure from the english language where, for example, the meaning of "see" has to be concluded from the context it is used in.

So the Neusprech - which, to repeat it, is no mandatory ruleset - makes other suggestions: for dividing and concatenating words, for capitalizing and spelling. If I read texts that claim to be "new orthography", I usually find most of the suggestions not followed. This is true for newspapers from Switzerland, too. They do not follow many of the german recommendations.

Within the german society, the ongoing reforms (yes, something new every year) has caused uncertainness. Most writers rely on outdated spell checkers which, of course, cannot recognize intentions of the writer, so grammar checks or punctuation are not handled anyway. So the final products are full of errors, no matter which ruleset or recommendation you apply. That's why the term Hausortographie (in-house orhography) has developed: It describes that certain groups tend to use a custom language ruleset. One example is the famous newspaper "Die Zeit" (the time) - pr. dee tsuyt - with their "Zeitschreibung"; the Brockhaus encyclopedia has different spelling rules than the "Duden", and so on. This caused the term Beliebigkeitsschreibung (arbitrary writing) - pr. baleebishkuytsshruyboong - just write as you like - there are no rules anymore.

The article you mentioned claims that Neusprech made it easier for teachers and students, but that's not true. Look at the PISA results. And according to the example above, try to imagine how a teacher would respond to a bavarian pupil asking: "Miss, when we say 'Spass', why do we have to write 'Spaß'? There is no long vocal! And when we say 'Zeugnis', why isn't it written 'Zeugniss', then?" Oh joy oh joy. :-)

This is due to the recommendations changing every few years and contradicting theirselves. Furthermore, most Newspeak suggestions do complicate the standard rules in an unneccessary way, mostly according concatenation, capitalizing and punctuation.

Just to scare you:

kennenlernen - kennen lernen - kennenlernen (to get to know)
es tut mir leid - es tut mir Leid - es tut mir leid (I'm sorry)
leid tun - leidtun (be sorry)
aufgrund - auf Grund (because of)
zur Zeit - zurzeit (actually, at the moment)
der Heilige Vater - der heilige Vater (the holy father)
erste Hilfe - Erste Hilfe (first aid)
zusammen schreiben (to write sth. concatenated)
auseinanderschreiben (to write sth. seperated)
aufwendig - aufwändig; but: aufwenden; auswendig (complex; to spend; from one's mind)

You can imagine the pain of a teacher trying to explain this inconsistency (stupididy).

I would have welcomed a reform that makes things easier (such as the suggested abandonement of capitalization), but in fact, everything got more complicated. While I may say that I'm an expert regarding the german language, I found myself more often thinking about how to write a certain word because in my daily life I saw so much different and wrong spellings. But finally, this helps me to always remember the correct forms.

Okay, enough german lessons for today. Non-native german speakers must think we're completely mad. :-)

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: spelling error
by orfanum on Tue 15th Apr 2008 14:43 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: spelling error"
orfanum Member since:
2006-06-02

I think I stand corrected and much better informed ;-).

Just a further question, what seems to be implied in what you have said is that Hochdeutsch/Standarddeutsch doesn't appear to have the integrating effect on the orthographical level that one might surmise (given as you say the differing length of vowel sounds in dialect-speech). Or has Standarddeutsch always been overplayed in this respect?

Non-native speakers of German just find it bewildering, and in my case I simply plough on as before...

Anyway, great response

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: spelling error
by Doc Pain on Tue 15th Apr 2008 20:29 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: spelling error"
Doc Pain Member since:
2006-10-08

Just a further question, what seems to be implied in what you have said is that Hochdeutsch/Standarddeutsch doesn't appear to have the integrating effect on the orthographical level that one might surmise (given as you say the differing length of vowel sounds in dialect-speech). Or has Standarddeutsch always been overplayed in this respect?


I hope I can express this in an understandable way, but I will try:

The rules how to pronounce words are given by the german stage language (deutsche Bühnensprache). It is based on the standard orthography. This corresponds to what we call new high german (Neuhochdeutsch). It is the (mostly) mandatory base for language considerations.

Dialect influenced pronounciation can be transferred into written form, but it needs the use of incorrectly written words.

Some examples:

Stage language: "Ach, ich glaube, da kommt eine Straßenbahn."
Saxonian: "Ei nu, ä isch gloub dä gommd ä Stroosnbohn."
Bavarian: "Mei, i gloab da kimmt a Straßnbahn."

Of course, none of the deviating words occurs in a dictionary. :-) Most dialects have the character to have the new high german as a common base which forms the rules. But still, language is a living thing, it changes due to its use, and this is done by the people speaking and writing, not by stupid or old-nazi regulation fanatics who just want to sell new dictionaries every year. That's why the standard (unified) orthography (Einheitsorthographie, Einheitsschreibung), incorrectly often called "old orthography" (according to a timeline, it's still the newest one), is the easiest to understand and to constitute according to its correctness (this is where Newspeakers fail). Standard orthography is, by the way, becoming more and more popular again. People who are writing books or have to tell you something substancial still use it due to its better readability and liability for errors (grammar, punctuation, hyphenation).

To get a little little bit on topic, i. e. it has something to do with operating systems, I'd suggest introducing a new language code. There are already de_DE, de_CH and de_AT, why not make de_DE conforming to standard orthograhy and add de_NS for german Neusprech? :-) (Germans will notice the fine fitting connotation of "NS").

Non-native speakers of German just find it bewildering, and in my case I simply plough on as before...


You cannot conclude the written form from the spoken form, and maybe that's what makes the german language a bit complicated. Due to the many "new", constantly changing and contradicting suggestions for spelling, it won't get easier.

When you're learning a language, your first step usually is the spoken form, not the written one. And because they differ in many cases, German language must show up like strange spellings from another Whoniverse. :-)

Anyway, great response


I would have never imagined that I would discuss such a topic here. And I'm sure I never used that much german words in an english speaking discussion board. :-)

Maybe it's the same the other way round. I know funny things how Germans pronounce english words and what they read from certain sentences, I have seen "ReiserFS" as "rice fat" and "language" as "lagoon". Or from my russian classes, "I am used trousers". :-)

And all this because Thom had to use a font that did not contain an Eszett! I hope all the readers here are willing to forgive me my dedication to my native language. :-)

Edited 2008-04-15 20:40 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: spelling error
by Kondor337 on Tue 15th Apr 2008 19:33 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: spelling error"
Kondor337 Member since:
2006-09-16

First of all, the rule to use ß or ss does not consider the "length" of vocals because this is due to dialects. For example, in Bavaria "Spaß" (joy) is spoken with a "short vocal" - pr. shpuss - so it would be written "Spass", in opposite, in Hamburg is is spoken with a "long vocal", - pr. shpaarse - so it would be written "Spaß" there.


I'm sorry, but that's not true. The official rules have always considered the length of the preceding vocal. The official rules used to be:

"ss" if it's between two vocals and the first one is short (diphtongs count as long vocals)
"ß" otherwise

So it was "Straße" (long "a"), "Schloß" (short "o", but not between two vocals), "Scheiße" ("ei" counts as long vocal) and "müssen" (between two vocals and the "ü" is short).
This rule only differentiates between "ss" and "ß", it says nothing about when to use "ss"/"ß" and when to use a single "s". You simply have to learn that. It's the same thing in the English language: There's no rule that tells you that misunderstanding isn't written missunderstanding.

With the new orthography the two-vocal-rule has been eliminated. So now you only have to look at the preceding vocal: It's still "Straße" (long "a"), "Scheiße" ("ei" counts as long vocal) and "müssen" (the "ü" is short), but now you write "Schloss" (short "o", it doesn't matter anymore that the "ss"/"ß" isn't between two vocals).

Probably it's sometimes difficult for people who speak a dialect and, e.g., pronounce "Spaß" with a short "a". But these people cannot say: "I do not accept the rules, because I cannot speak High German properly."
In High German "Spaß" has to be pronounced with a long "a" and therefore it's written "Spaß".

Traditionally, the rule to select between ss and ß is this: If an ss cannot be divided, ß is used.


This is interesting. It looks like your "traditional" rule gives the exact same results as the former German official rules. "Straße" (not "Stras-se"), "Schloß" (not "Schlos-s"), "Scheiße" (not "Scheis-se"), "müssen" ("müs-sen"). The (dumb) reformers, however, probably knew only the official rules and thought: If we simplify these rules, it will be simpler to decide when to use "ß" and "ss". They didn't know there was another "traditional rule" that was even simpler, but now cannot be used at all anymore. (I didn't know your rule, either, and I may say that I'm an expert regarding the German language, too.)

By the way, I completely agree with everything else you said about that "Neusprech"...

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: spelling error
by Doc Pain on Tue 15th Apr 2008 20:12 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: spelling error"
Doc Pain Member since:
2006-10-08

I'm sorry, but that's not true. The official rules have always considered the length of the preceding vocal. The official rules used to be:

"ss" if it's between two vocals and the first one is short (diphtongs count as long vocals)
"ß" otherwise


That's not entirely correct. Let me take the time to proove it.

According to that rule (or, let's call it suggestion, because it's nothing different), words like "bis" or "Zeugnis" would have to be written "biss" or "Zeugniss". Words like "Glas" or "Rasen" would have to be written "Glaß" or "Raßen". As you will agree, that's not correct. As I mentioned furthermore, "vocal lengths" are subject of dialects.

q.e.d. :-)

I don't know why you used the word "always"; the standard orthography defines individable ss to be written as ß. That's the simple rule. Allthough since the beginning of the reforms more and more suggestions occured, the standard rule is still present and used, by the way, more and more often, because it is easier to master than the "vocal length suggestion".

So it was "Straße" (long "a"), "Schloß" (short "o", but not between two vocals), "Scheiße" ("ei" counts as long vocal) and "müssen" (between two vocals and the "ü" is short).


This is not correct. As I mentioned before, the ability to divide a word is the key to select between ss and ß. Stra-ße (not Stras-se), Schloß (not Schlos-s), Scheiße (not Scheis-se) and müssen (müs-sen); you can easily form other examples that illustrate the correctness of the rule. Especially at the end of a word no ss is placed (because you cannot divide off the last s).

This rule only differentiates between "ss" and "ß", it says nothing about when to use "ss"/"ß" and when to use a single "s";.


That's correct.

You simply have to learn that. It's the same thing in the English language: There's no rule that tells you that misunderstanding isn't written missunderstanding.


You got the idea. You have to know which words are written with ß, which ones with ss and which ones with s. You cannot conclude this from the spoken form because it depends on dialects. See the "bavarian example" above.

Zeugnis - short vocal i - Zeugniss *wrong*
lesen - long vocal e - leßen *wrong*
Maßeinheit - in Bavaria: short vocal a - Masseinheit *wrong*

The german written language is [b[not a vocal language (Lautsprache). From the spoken form, you cannot exactly tell the written form.

With the new orthography the two-vocal-rule has been eliminated. So now you only have to look at the preceding vocal: It's still "Straße" (long "a"), "Scheiße" ("ei" counts as long vocal) and "müssen" (the "ü" is short), but now you write "Schloss" (short "o", it doesn't matter anymore that the "ss"/"ß" isn't between two vocals).


The vocals never mattered. This Neusprech suggestion makes things more complicated as I mentioned before. There are "short vocals" where no ss follows, but instead simple s; furthermore, concatenated nouns where an "ss" is followed by "s*" in the next word part look weird. One of my favourite examples is "Messstrippe" - ssstr - five (!) conconants and no visible word gap.

Because vocal lengths are a matter of dialects, you cannot tell for sure how a vocal is spoken. For example, "Gras" can be spoken with a long a and a short a, but in no case "Graß" or "Grass" is written.

This is the main reason why pupils today have so many problems regarding correct spelling. I've seen it all. I know it, I did work in education sector. :-)

Probably it's sometimes difficult for people who speak a dialect and, e.g., pronounce "Spaß" with a short "a". But these people cannot say: "I do not accept the rules, because I cannot speak High German properly.";


As I proved, nobody needs to obey these suggestions (because they have no power of force).

In High German "Spaß" has to be pronounced with a long "a" and therefore it's written "Spaß".


That's not a matter of Neuhochdeutsch (new high german), but instead of the so called deutsche Bühnensprache (german stage language) which is the mandatory pronouncing guide. If you put it into written form, you end up within standard orthography (and not in one of the suggested "reformed" forms), and correctly, if you read text according to standard orthography dialect-free, you have the german stage language again.

This is interesting. It looks like your "traditional" rule gives the exact same results as the former German official rules. "Straße" (not "Stras-se"), "Schloß" (not "Schlos-s"), "Scheiße" (not "Scheis-se"), "müssen" ("müs-sen"). The (dumb) reformers, however, probably knew only the official rules and thought: If we simplify these rules, it will be simpler to decide when to use "ß" and "ss". They didn't know there was another "traditional rule" that was even simpler, but now cannot be used at all anymore. (I didn't know your rule, either, and I may say that I'm an expert regarding the German language, too.)


You're correct, the "new" rules (abolished in Austria more than 100 years ago due to too much confusion) do not make things easier, because first you have to know where an ß occurs and then replace some of them with ss. The rule according to division of ss is very simple and easy to check (place - between s and s in ss and check if it works). In my opinion, it is the easiest rule to decide s, ss or ß, because the rule based on vocal lengths does not work in all cases (examples above).

By the way, I completely agree with everything else you said about that "Neusprech"...


That's an educated and scientifically proven point of view. :-)

Finally, the use of ß ligature can be seen a matter of typography, so it's not within the working place of orthography. For example, if I don't use ck, fl, ffl, fi and other ligatures, my text still remains correct.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: spelling error
by Kondor337 on Wed 16th Apr 2008 08:21 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: spelling error"
Kondor337 Member since:
2006-09-16

"I'm sorry, but that's not true. The official rules have always considered the length of the preceding vocal. The official rules used to be:

"ss" if it's between two vocals and the first one is short (diphtongs count as long vocals)
"ß" otherwise


That's not entirely correct. Let me take the time to proove it.
"

No, you are completely wrong. It IS correct. These were the official rules for deciding when to use ss and when to use ß. As I said, they said nothing about when to use ss/ß and when to use s. And it's not a suggestion, it's the official rule. Please accept that.

According to that rule (or, let's call it suggestion, because it's nothing different), words like "bis" or "Zeugnis" would have to be written "biss" or "Zeugniss". Words like "Glas" or "Rasen" would have to be written "Glaß" or "Raßen". As you will agree, that's not correct. As I mentioned furthermore, "vocal lengths" are subject of dialects.

q.e.d. :-)

1.) No, Zeugnis, Glas, Rasen are not written with ß/ss and are not affected by the rule. Again, the rule only differentiates between ss and ß.
2.) vocal lengths may be different in dialects, but if you don't speak High German, you have to learn the correct lengths. It's not that it's somehow arbitrary how to speak "Spaß". In High German, you HAVE TO speak it with a long a, hence it's written "Spaß".

I don't know why you used the word "always"; the standard orthography defines individable ss to be written as ß. That's the simple rule. Allthough since the beginning of the reforms more and more suggestions occured, the standard rule is still present and used, by the way, more and more often, because it is easier to master than the "vocal length suggestion".

I may be easier, but the "vocal length suggestion" is the official rule, it's not a suggestion.

The vocals never mattered. This Neusprech suggestion makes things more complicated as I mentioned before. There are "short vocals" where no ss follows, but instead simple s; furthermore, concatenated nouns where an "ss" is followed by "s*" in the next word part look weird. One of my favourite examples is "Messstrippe" - ssstr - five (!) conconants and no visible word gap.


The vocals did matter and they do still matter. If you cannot use these rules, because you are from Bavaria and cannot speak High German properly, that's unfortunate, but doesn't change the rules. You're correct in that the Neusprech suggestion creates horrible looking words, but that's not the point here.


Because vocal lengths are a matter of dialects, you cannot tell for sure how a vocal is spoken. For example, "Gras" can be spoken with a long a and a short a, but in no case "Graß" or "Grass" is written.

This has NOTHING to do with dialects. The official rules are for High German, and e.g. Gras is never spoken with a short "a" in High German. Please stop using these silly examples. The rule doesn't say anything about when to use ss/ß and when to use s, so you cannot disprove the rule by trying to apply it to these cases.

This is the main reason why pupils today have so many problems regarding correct spelling. I've seen it all. I know it, I did work in education sector. :-)

I still work there, and it's the same thing at the university – even the students cannot write properly anymore.

"Probably it's sometimes difficult for people who speak a dialect and, e.g., pronounce "Spaß" with a short "a". But these people cannot say: "I do not accept the rules, because I cannot speak High German properly.";


As I proved, nobody needs to obey these suggestions (because they have no power of force).
"

Pupils, students and public service staff have to use these RULES. Other people can write the way they prefer.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: spelling error
by Doc Pain on Wed 16th Apr 2008 13:11 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: spelling error"
Doc Pain Member since:
2006-10-08

I applaud your energy to discuss this interesting (allthough off topic) concern further. So I'd like to comment on your last statements.

No, you are completely wrong. It IS correct. These were the official rules for deciding when to use ss and when to use ß. As I said, they said nothing about when to use ss/ß and when to use s. And it's not a suggestion, it's the official rule. Please accept that.


The first official rules have been introduced by Konrad Duden who unified the orthography in Germany. This tool place approx in 1900 (or a bit later) if I remember correctly. Duden did not "force" any rule, he just collected what the majoriry of the Germans within the German empire did use. His dictionary became the standard until 1995. After this point in time, the "Duden monopoly" regarding correct spelling has been abolished. Today, there are many dictionaries with contradicting suggestions. Because there is no official ruleset for correct orthography, any dictionary may be seen as a suggestion - you are free to rely on it, but you may not use it at all. This is the freedom represented in BVerfG ruling 1 BvR 1940 / 97 sentence 4. (This important sentence explains why there is no complete de facto use of the "new" rules.)

In relation to ß and ss, Duden did use the well proven rules by Adelung (individable ss is ß). Wether to use s or ss/ß was of course not selectable by this rule. You had to know, for example, that "muß" and "müssen" did require ß and ss, while "Zeugnis" just requires s.

Duden did not rely on the Heyse rule ("short vocal" rule) because it was an unneccessary complication, because first you would have to apply the Adelung rule (some ss into ß) and afterwards apply the Heyse rule (some of the ß back into ss).

1.) No, Zeugnis, Glas, Rasen are not written with ß/ss and are not affected by the rule. Again, the rule only differentiates between ss and ß.


Of course they are not written with ß or ss, but according to the "new" rule, they would have been to, because they do contain a "short vocal", and the "new" rule does not take anything else into mind. See example above.

2.) vocal lengths may be different in dialects, but if you don't speak High German, you have to learn the correct lengths. It's not that it's somehow arbitrary how to speak "Spaß" In High German, you HAVE TO speak it with a long a, hence it's written "Spaß"


The pronouncing rules are set by the german stage language (deutsche Bühnensprache) that has insofar nothing to do with the new high german (Neuhochdeutsch). Of course, this standardized way to pronounce words is a key part of native language education in school.

I may be easier, but the "vocal length suggestion" is the official rule, it's not a suggestion.


As I could prove, it's not, because it lacks any legal backup. You see this through the normative power of the fact - it isn't used by many students, by newspapers, magazines, and in books.

The vocals did matter and they do still matter. If you cannot use these rules, because you are from Bavaria and cannot speak High German properly, that's unfortunate, but doesn't change the rules. You're correct in that the Neusprech suggestion creates horrible looking words, but that's not the point here.


In fact, it is the point. :-) That's why this suggestion is used in a decreasing way. I think more and more Germans are coming back to standard orthography over the years.

This has NOTHING to do with dialects. The official rules are for High German, and e.g. Gras is never spoken with a short "a" in High German.


I think we have a misunderstanding here. Of course do dialects in no regards have influence to the correct spelling. Because dialects tend to differ from the standardizes pronouncing rules formed by the german stage language, there are so many problems why pupils don't understand where to write s, ss or ß. Because Neusprech encourages selection upon vocal lengths that the pupils don't have represented in the same way in their daily life, there are so many mistakes, for example "bissher" or "müßen".

Please stop using these silly examples. The rule doesn't say anything about when to use ss/ß and when to use s, so you cannot disprove the rule by trying to apply it to these cases.


I hope my explaination above has made my standpoint understandable. Because I think we even do agree here. It was my intention to illustrate the many problems dialectic implications bring towards spelling. This is due to the (incorrect) rule: "Write it as you speak / pronounce it" which is very comfortable, but leads into many mistakes.

I still work [in education[, and it's the same thing at the university – even the students cannot write properly anymore.


Yes, sadly that's true. I've seen so many presentations, papers and diploma thesises (I hope that's the correct plural!) - what a shame. Furthermore, the many "new" differing, contradicting and inexact rules have even bad influence on people who always thought they do write correctly, but today, they tend to think longer times... concatenated or separated, capitalized or not, comma or no comma, hyphenation where, etc.

You surely know the TV's Teletext / Videotext. There you can see other "nice" examples about how the "spelling reforms" are failing constantly.


Pupils, students and public service staff have to use these RULES. Other people can write the way they prefer.


No, this is not true.

1. Pupils have to use whatever ruleset the teacher uses. This differs from school to school, even from class to class. I'm sure you're familiar with the term Kleinstaaterei - every federal country has own rules for spelling. See BVerfG ruling 1 BvR 1640 / 97 sentence 2. Furthermore, most schools use outdated "Duden" editions or even other dictionaries (Bertelsmann, Pons) that do not contain the "official rules" presented in the ruling by the BVerfG. Furthermore, pupils are confronted with changing rules, so what may have been correct when they entered the school is wrong today (e. g. kennen lernen - kennenlernen). There is some important ruling of a Verwaltungsgericht (administrative court) that stengthens pupils' rights to be controlled according to the standard orthography (rather than an arbitrary collection of rules violating the initial suggestions from 1996).

2. Students are free to choose whatever orthography they like. See mentioned BVerfG sentence 4.

3. Officials have to use the rules presented in the BVerfG's ruling. These rules are not entirely represented in all the the "Dudens". They are nearly impossible to master. In fact, nobody uses them. When you read official text (from the government, an authority or something similar), you'll notice many mistakes. They do not master the (exactly: their) mandatory rules (Duden wordlist 1996 + ruleset BVerfG replay), nor do they master any ruleset. Spelling has become completely arbitrary, and this legally.

The legal situation is very clear and can be easily concluded from the ruling of the BVerfG and higher administrative courts.

Don't get me wrong, I do really like this kind of discussion, because it always proves the complete failure of a small clique that wants to control the language in order to sell new books, making wrong and stupid claims (Stengel is derived from Stange, Tolpatsch is derived from toll etc.) that cannot stand a simple scientifical examination.

Hey, Americans and Englishmen, would you like your government to completely mess up your language? Sometimes, I'm poking fun on "new english orfograffy". Finally, its the people who makes the language. I hope the Germans will notice one day, but from 1996 on, functional illitracy and legasthenia are the new goals of education. We call this Volksverdummung (dumbing down the people). It reminds me to 1984 - a book worth reading. Manipulation of the way (written language) thoughts are transmitted...

Reply Score: 2

hahaha
by liamdawe on Tue 15th Apr 2008 13:08 UTC
liamdawe
Member since:
2006-07-04

that is what i have thought about him all along hehe

Reply Score: 1

RE: hahaha
by hobgoblin on Wed 16th Apr 2008 08:02 UTC in reply to "hahaha"
hobgoblin Member since:
2005-07-06

just to confess, i had to search the name to get the joke ;)

Reply Score: 2

Comment by cefarix
by cefarix on Wed 16th Apr 2008 04:16 UTC
cefarix
Member since:
2006-03-18

Nice. And just so I'm not off-topic... ß is the same as ss

Reply Score: 1

Comment by hollovoid
by hollovoid on Wed 16th Apr 2008 15:58 UTC
hollovoid
Member since:
2005-09-21

Robert is an oddity, to work full time and do what he does is incredible. Even tho I havent had time to test sky out as much as I would like, Its one of the few projects I follow year after year impressed of the pace that one man has pushed forward.

Reply Score: 1

Door
by Kelly Rush on Fri 18th Apr 2008 21:49 UTC
Kelly Rush
Member since:
2005-06-30

This is a fairly accurate comic, as the door has no knob. That's actually how we keep Robert on task.

One time though, he tried to code a knob. That got...awkward. Needless to say, the solution involved submitting around 1,000+ bugs to the bug tracker, which delayed him long enough for us to implement stronger security measures.

Edited 2008-04-18 21:50 UTC

Reply Score: 2