Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 28th Apr 2008 18:01 UTC
Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu Last week, the Ubuntu guys released Ubuntu 8.04, named "Hardy Heron". Instead of posting 24408 news items pointing to different reviews of this new Ubuntu release from all over the world, we decided to collect a few of them over the weekend and present them all in one gulp. I have a feeling some of you might like not seeing three Ubuntu items every day.
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Random Thoughts
by Clinton on Mon 28th Apr 2008 18:36 UTC
Clinton
Member since:
2005-07-05

I've only used the latest release of Ubuntu for a couple of days now, but I've been impressed by its stability and many of the included programs.

There were two things that really stood out for me right away...

1) PostgreSQL 8.3 - This release is a major leap forward for PostgreSQL, and I'm really glad it was included in this latest offering from Ubuntu.

2) The Gimp 2.4 - In the past, for me anyway, The Gimp has always been a tool that allowed me to do a subset of the things I use Photoshop for. The Gimp 2.4 is the first time I've ever used The Gimp and thought to myself, "I wish Photoshop could do that". Perhaps I will finally be able to dump the aging and bloated Photoshop for good. It's still too early for me to tell.

In a nutshell, I think Ubuntu provides a great desktop platform to work on. It is stable and easy to use, yet provides me with all the power of Linux when I want to use it.

I would also like to thank all the other open source teams, like PostgreSQL and The Gimp, whose contributions have helped to make Ubuntu 8.04 the best release yet.

Reply Score: 8

RE: Random Thoughts
by evangs on Mon 28th Apr 2008 18:42 UTC in reply to "Random Thoughts"
evangs Member since:
2005-07-07

[q
2) The Gimp 2.4 - In the past, for me anyway, The Gimp has always been a tool that allowed me to do a subset of the things I use Photoshop for. The Gimp 2.4 is the first time I've ever used The Gimp and thought to myself, "I wish Photoshop could do that". Perhaps I will finally be able to dump the aging and bloated Photoshop for good. It's still too early for me to tell. [/q]

This intrigues me. I'm currently using Gimp a lot on the Mac to retouch photos I take. I'm tempted to go investigate Photoshop Elements 6 as the Gimp's interface drives me slightly insane.

What does the Gimp do that Photoshop doesn't do? Or what does it do better than Photoshop?

Reply Score: 2

To the review of Content Consumer:
by Crono on Mon 28th Apr 2008 18:40 UTC
Crono
Member since:
2006-11-08

Linux won't truly be ready for the desktop until someone computer illiterate can sit down at a the computer and with little effort do what they want to do.


Shaw's Principle:
Build a system that even a fool can use, and only a fool will want to use it.

(thanks, fortune!)

Reply Score: 12

byrc Member since:
2006-02-18

Shaw's Principle:
Build a system that even a fool can use, and only a fool will want to use it.

(thanks, fortune!)


To be quite honest, the average consumer today is quite the fool when it comes to computers. And that is through no fault of their own. When you are working and have a family and the such, it is totally reasonable to assume someone does not want to spend the time reading new documentation and forums to get their computer to work.

To most people, a computer is simply an appliance, not a toy or hobby. A truly modern OS should be transparent to the user much like a refrigerator is. You do not need to understand the mechanics of a fridge to keep your beer cold and the same should go for computers. They should not need to know they are learning a new filesystem, they should not have to care. The system should be intuitive enough that the simple tasks most people use computers for are quick and accessible.

Linux has the opportunity to be the "People's OS" but there seems to be a great deal of internal resistance to making it a populist system. Much like when someones favorite indie band makes it big, people for some reason do not want their own private operating system being the next big thing.

Ubuntu, and for that matter Fedora, SuSE and the other "mainstream" Linux distros are making great strides to the sort of transparency needed, and I hope they keep making this progress.

Edited to fix my quoting mistakes

Edited 2008-04-28 19:04 UTC

Reply Score: 10

starnix Member since:
2006-05-12

Your refrigerator analogy is a good one in regards to what people expect however it breaks down in that a refrigerator only does one thing. Keeps things cold. A computer is a complex piece of equipment and as you make it easier you also make it "simpler" as in, you will be limiting it. I think as a "Power user" desktop OS, LINUX is there. It hasn't yet reached the status of "Stupid User" desktop, and to be honest, I hope it never does as that would hold ME back. Also to be fair, Windows hasn't reached "Stupid User" status yet either, thats Mac OSX territory.

The real situation is that Windows basically is forced on you by every PC maker out there. LINUX had to WORK to get where it is and I think it is doing marvelously and already IS a better OS than Windows.

Reply Score: 2

martinus Member since:
2005-07-06

Shaw's Principle:
Build a system that even a fool can use, and only a fool will want to use it.


Sorry, but this is just wrong. Think of a hammer: this is a tool that is extremely simple to use, just grab it and bash away. Do only fools use a hammer? Think of a blacksmith. A good tool should enable fools to get the work done, and experts to deliver exceptional results.

Reply Score: 3

Crono Member since:
2006-11-08

Sorry, but this is just wrong. Think of a hammer: this is a tool that is extremely simple to use, just grab it and bash away. Do only fools use a hammer? Think of a blacksmith. A good tool should enable fools to get the work done, and experts to deliver exceptional results.


A blacksmith is not a fool. A blacksmith is a professional. And I know some people who are definitely not able to get a nail into a board without deforming it (that doesn't really have much to do with the blacksmith but w/e).

Also, comparing operating systems to things like that is... unfitting.

Reply Score: 4

orfanum Member since:
2006-06-02

Hmm, Start of Rant:

The blacksmith very likely had a good teacher, when he was the apprentice, if he became an expert. If he wants a new generation to become equally expert, he'll put aside some time to pass on the skills. This time he might spend crafting exquisite works, through which his own fame might be spread and strenghthened, but it's a price worth paying, since the profession is after all greater than he is, and he does owe it something. How will he achieve the skilling of the apprentice? Will "OMFG, naaah, not like that you f*ckwit" do, or something a tad more encouraging and instructive?

The attitude frequently evident on this site by certain individuals is "Jeez, I did it myself so there's no way I am gonna help anyone else to figure it out". I am sorry, did you learn to speak, read and write on your own? it's possible (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Wright_%28linguist%29 - Wright is said to have taught himself to an extent by deciphering the upside down Bible, i.e., as it would have been presented to him on the knees of his Sunday School teacher, if memory serves) but the illogical attitude is, nonetheless: "I ain't gonna speak to anyone else in case they learn this language thing too, they gotta work it out for themselves."

Therefore I am not at all surprised that recent studies have shown a correlation (albeit non-exclusive) between increases in autism and the computer-wielding classes in the States, and presumably elsewhere:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2192611.stm

(and yes, the opposite side of the coin is that many with autism are enabled in their communication through computers: http://current.com/items/88847568_mute_autistic_girl_finally_speaks...)

Hey, we are social beings, and the anti-social don't belong to the species by definition. Still, this micro-Eureka makes it clear to me now why the cry of simultaneous triumph and derision is more often than not "RTFM", since hardly any self-respecting, or perhaps self-styled UeberGeek is going to say with meekness rather - "Actually, I did this with someone's help"


PS - Don't you just love the beautiful serendipity of the Internet. Looking up Eureka just now, I discovered that the word not only literally means "*I* am in a state of having found it" but also that it's the State motto of California...."

Reply Score: 4

autumnlover Member since:
2007-04-12


Shaw's Principle: Build a system that even a fool can use, and only a fool will want to use it.


"Who's the more foolish - the fool, or the fool who follows him?"

Reply Score: 3

Often Forgotten
by fretinator on Mon 28th Apr 2008 18:53 UTC
fretinator
Member since:
2005-07-06

Linux won't truly be ready for the desktop until someone computer illiterate can sit down at a the computer and with little effort do what they want to do.


A computer illiterate person who sits down in front of a Windows computer is usually absolutely lost. Only an experienced user can walk them through what to do. The most classic problem is saving files. Where did that Outlook attachment go? Help!!

Reply Score: 16

RE: Often Forgotten
by Crono on Mon 28th Apr 2008 18:57 UTC in reply to "Often Forgotten"
Crono Member since:
2006-11-08

Exactly.

This whole "review" boils down to "The system works different than Windows so that's bad" and "The programs work different than popular Windows-alternatives so that's bad, too".

Seriously, that one definitely wasn't woth the read.

Reply Score: 7

RE: Often Forgotten
by dimosd on Mon 28th Apr 2008 19:49 UTC in reply to "Often Forgotten"
dimosd Member since:
2006-02-10

A computer illiterate person who sits down in front of a Windows computer is usually absolutely lost.


Ever since computer illiterate people were allowed to use computers, they spoiled the fun for the rest of us ;-)

Edited 2008-04-28 19:51 UTC

Reply Score: 8

RE: Often Forgotten
by phoenix on Tue 29th Apr 2008 02:24 UTC in reply to "Often Forgotten"
phoenix Member since:
2005-07-11

A computer illiterate person who sits down in front of a Windows computer is usually absolutely lost. Only an experienced user can walk them through what to do. The most classic problem is saving files. Where did that Outlook attachment go? Help!!


What's even more frustrating is watching people try to attach a file (which they just finished typing and saved) to a new e-mail.

Or, trying to explain to people that you don't "save it to my Excel". We have some people at work who can't grasp the concept of files stored on disk and being able to open them in multiple applications. To them "Excel" is their file manager. (Or OpenOffice.org for those that are using our Linux systems. They manage their files via the File -> Open dialog.)

It's not that people are dumb, or computers are hard. It's that people lack common sense and the ability to think things through logically. That, and they are too lazy to experiment or explore.

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: Often Forgotten
by RIchard James13 on Tue 29th Apr 2008 05:33 UTC in reply to "RE: Often Forgotten"
RIchard James13 Member since:
2007-10-26

It's not that people are dumb, or computers are hard. It's that people lack common sense and the ability to think things through logically. That, and they are too lazy to experiment or explore.


I don't agree. If the system lumps all the files into an anamorphic mess we call a filesystem and then we expect a person to realise that the computer doesn't remember the files we just told it to save when you run another program, we should be blaming the system not the user.

Of course the solution to this is to rewrite all the applications using file selector that is not stupid.

We can't really train 1 billion people how to navigate a hierarchical file system by using pretty icons. Much easier if the system kept track of the files for the user.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Often Forgotten
by spanionIust on Tue 29th Apr 2008 06:57 UTC in reply to "RE: Often Forgotten"
spanionIust Member since:
2008-04-29

Common sense? The common thing about 'common sense' is that it ain't that common.

Reply Score: 2

Haven't had much success on my laptops
by joshv on Mon 28th Apr 2008 18:54 UTC
joshv
Member since:
2006-03-18

I tried out Wubi on two of my laptops. One was an older 256MB Vaio. An 8.4 installion failed entirely, even with the alternate installer. I tried out 7.4, no dice there either - so maybe it's just an oddball hardware setup.

The other laptop is a newer Lenovo. Ubuntu 8.4 installed wonderfully simply, but I just can't get Wi-Fi to work - so it's a non-starter. I am a bit amazed at the failure mode though - which consists of Ubuntu detecting my Wi-Fi card, detecting my Wi-Fi network, taking my password, and then going off and doing... absolutely nothing ... no error message, but no network either.

Suspend doesn't work either, but I think that's because I used Wubi.

Reply Score: 1

my 2¢
by jaylaa on Mon 28th Apr 2008 18:55 UTC
jaylaa
Member since:
2006-01-17

Regarding the "girlfriend test"; anybody, no matter how smart, is going to have trouble doing things on a new OS. I have multiple degrees, but if you put me in front of a Mac, it's a frustrating time. Not because there's something wrong with the way they do things, but because I'm not used to it. Concluding that things need to change in Ubuntu because his girlfriend had trouble with it is pretty stupid.

Anyway, Ubuntu. Yeah, I like this release. There are regressions for me that I had to manually fix with the help of others with the same problem. I guess they didn't affect enough people.

I got rid of Pulseaudio all together. With it in sound would stutter whenever cpu usage went above a few %. And I had do to some hackery that I found on the webs to get the optical drive to not run incredibly slow and stuttery.

But, my laptop still likes this release better than any previous Linux version, Ubuntu or otherwise.

Reply Score: 7

RE: my 2â
by Yamin on Mon 28th Apr 2008 19:10 UTC in reply to "my 2¢"
Yamin Member since:
2006-01-10

That's true to an extent.
I mean, I used a mac at school for the first time. I ended up mucking my usb drive because I couldn't find the eject button for the USB (On window I know its the icon in the tray...even if it is annoying). On MAC, apparently, u drag the drive to the trash. Not exactly intuitive to me.

Anyways, the point is what the operating system SHOULD do to make the transition easier. Sometimes, these things sound totally stupid, but they would help.

Consider the windows Start button. For one, it is labelled Start and not just some obscure item. I think when it first came out, an arrow would blaze across the bottom to tell you to click start. Pretty simple and you might think who would need that.

I realized how useful this would have been when I first tried office 2007. I explored the ribbon just fine, but I couldn't find out how to save-as. It took me a while to realize the circular icon on the top-left is where you find a 'traditional' menu. I thought it was just decoration for a while.

It's amazing how far tool tips, popout thingies, simple help things can go.

So he made a lot of good points about Ubuntu. Many of which I've ran into personally.

1. Naming (very important). Most of all, don't try and be cute. What is pidgin.im. First the name is odd, but worst... .im domain? I get it's cute for instant messenger, but just stick to the regular.

2. locations. Even for a 'advanced', say you install a program, how do you find out where it installed to or the executable name? I've resorted to clicking to edit the menu, which invokes a separate program...finding the entry and right-clicking properties...totally weird. Why can't i just directly right-click the menu item or it could have a context popup when I'm under the item.

3. Do things automatically. Getting flash...in firefox should be made simple. Fine, don't install proprietary stuff by default, but prompt the user when it is needed, explain why, get their permission and then do it.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: my 2�â
by lteo on Mon 28th Apr 2008 20:35 UTC in reply to "RE: my 2â"
lteo Member since:
2007-03-25

Consider the windows Start button. For one, it is labelled Start and not just some obscure item. I think when it first came out, an arrow would blaze across the bottom to tell you to click start. Pretty simple and you might think who would need that.


The cool thing about the Start button: to shut down your PC, you'll need to press the Start button! ;)

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: my 2�â
by apoclypse on Mon 28th Apr 2008 20:42 UTC in reply to "RE: my 2â"
apoclypse Member since:
2007-02-17

Umm. His GF is an idiot because FF in Ubuntu automatically pops up the installer when it encounters Flash or java or what have you.

Linus is not windows, they should break the user habit of going from site to site to download apps, when they shoudl be going to the repos. You can;t get more moron prrof the add/remove programs. In windows they should just call it remove programs because that is all its useful for but in Ubuntu Add/remove programs actually gives you a slew of apps to install. So in that respect he's basically asking his girlfriend to work how windows works. He should have told her how Linux works Ubuntu in this case) first and then had her try the system. It doesn't have to be an in-depth tour or anything just simple things like this is how you install software in Ubuntu. Better yet he should have opened the help browser by default, it outlines everything they need to know. I'm sure his gf had the same issues using windows when she first sat in front of it. She will have the same issues using a Mac as well and using a mac is as easy as it gets.

I do Agree that better named menu entries would be cool. Its like people want notification for everything though. This is not windows we don;t need 500 hundred popups giving you an up the minute synopsis of how windows found your harddrive and is preparing itself to pop up another dialog asking you what you want to do with it. Mac and Gnome don't bother with that crap, they just open the folder, no popups no notification, your notification is the fact that you have an open folder and a nice icon on your desktop letting you know that your harddrive is mounted. I like the fact that Mac 9which has very minimal notification popups and relies on icons and visual cues to let you know what is going on) and gnome just get out of the way. In-fact I think Ubuntu has been putting in too many notification popups. I've seen it where there are three on the screen at the same time, unnecessary.

Another thinsg. Why would his gf automatically assume that somethign like limewire would be installed ny default, is it installed by default on a windows machine? I doubt it very much, in-fact you don't even get a default bittorent client. I do agree that the name shoudl be more coherent, but the fatc that transmission is there at all shows the real difference between Ubuntu and windows.

In-fact I want his gf to use a default windows install and see how far she gets, I'd bet money that she wouldn't get very far without severe issues. I'm not talking about an OEM "default" install, I'm talking about a default install of plain old windows. Even on an oem install I see issues down the line for this type of user.

Why would the user have issues with directory names the user should not be mucking about in anything but their home folder where directories are very clear as to what they do. Anything that downloads goes to their desktop. So I don't see the point on this one.

Reply Score: 10

RE[3]: my 2Ã��Ã�Ã&
by protoz on Mon 28th Apr 2008 21:20 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: my 2�â"
protoz Member since:
2008-04-28

If you read the article carefully he mentions that YouTube was to blame for flash not being installed, not Firefox. Youtube has a javascript that will send you to Adobe's website to download flash if it is not already installed but since Adobe doesn't have a .deb for Flash it wasn't as easy. If she was running Fedora/Suse/Mandriva it would have been easier for this install.

If she went to another site that didn't forward her to Adobe.com it would have prompted her to install it through Firefox. This happened to me on my last reinstall because I forgot I had to reinstall it and went to YouTube. I just went to another flash enabled site and it installed all nice and happy.

Later in the article she installed Skype using a .deb file and only had troubles finding it in the Internet menu because it wasn't clear as to where it would go so she trudged through the filesystem trying to find it. She eventually found it but without it being explained to her how the menu's were set up it would have been difficult to understand.

This is one reason why developers need to agree on a single installer format and use it. Be it .deb, .rpm, or .linux for all I care. Once that format is established users will not have to guess which file to download. It will work in Fedora, Ubuntu, Arch and Slackware just the same. If distros need special configurations, have that set up in the file and be done with it.

Reply Score: 2

pandronic Member since:
2006-05-18

Linus is not windows, they should break the user habit of going from site to site to download apps, when they shoudl be going to the repos.


I've tested Ubuntu 8.04 and I wanted to play a movie with subtitles. The installed player was not able to display them for some reason so I had to install another player. Guess what I did? I googled "ubuntu movie player subtitles" and found out about mplayer, vlc and xine. Then I searched in Synaptic and found tens of items that had VLC or MPLAYER in the name - which is retarded. I couldn't care less about the libraries that VLC uses. So no, for now Linux's way of installing programs is not better than Windows'. It's not worse either, just as bad. I know there is an Add/Remove programs option in Ubuntu, but there are not enough applications in there.

Another thinsg. Why would his gf automatically assume that somethign like limewire would be installed ny default, is it installed by default on a windows machine? I doubt it very much, in-fact you don't even get a default bittorent client. I do agree that the name shoudl be more coherent, but the fatc that transmission is there at all shows the real difference between Ubuntu and windows.

In-fact I want his gf to use a default windows install and see how far she gets, I'd bet money that she wouldn't get very far without severe issues. I'm not talking about an OEM "default" install, I'm talking about a default install of plain old windows. Even on an oem install I see issues down the line for this type of user.


Well, regular users have their computers set up for them. So it doesn't matter that Linux detects more hardware out of the box, or that it comes with more apps. The computer savvy friend will set up the machine whether it is Windows or Linux. In these days the user is expected to know just to use the machine, not set it up.

Why would the user have issues with directory names the user should not be mucking about in anything but their home folder where directories are very clear as to what they do. Anything that downloads goes to their desktop. So I don't see the point on this one.


Then just don't let the user access anything but the home folder and make it super easy for them to find other partitions. For example - for Windows partitions auto mount them, put an icon on the desktop with the drive letter that the user sees in Windows. How the hell is my mom supposed to know what 283gB partition means?

---

I think that now Linux is much more user friendly than Windows in some aspects and it needs to be, to convince people to switch. I really hate it when people take this kind of criticism personally and immediately start comparing with Windows or MacOS X. It's not like Linux is perfect or couldn't be improved. The fact is that people know to use Windows since it's so widely spread.

To make them use your product you have to make it way, way better and as for the GUI make it either identical to Windows, super intuitive or do some serious hand-holding (with popups, video tutorials, visual cues and so on).

This state of denial won't make regular users switch. Linux has to be good on its own, period. Not somewhat better or comparable to the competition.

Reply Score: 2

WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

I googled "ubuntu movie player subtitles" and found out about mplayer, vlc and xine. Then I searched in Synaptic and found tens of items that had VLC or MPLAYER in the name - which is retarded. I couldn't care less about the libraries that VLC uses.

I agree, that is a little retarded. This issue has been solved in Mandriva so that by default it only searches for packages with a GUI, not library packages or such. So, if you search for f.ex. Abiword it will not display any libraries with the word "abiword" in their name. I think that's a good start, helps newbies get around a little faster. I did select for it to display all packages though, I am a geek ;)

Reply Score: 2

lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

"Linus is not windows, they should break the user habit of going from site to site to download apps, when they shoudl be going to the repos.


I've tested Ubuntu 8.04 and I wanted to play a movie with subtitles. The installed player was not able to display them for some reason so I had to install another player. Guess what I did? I googled "ubuntu movie player subtitles" and found out about mplayer, vlc and xine. Then I searched in Synaptic and found tens of items that had VLC or MPLAYER in the name - which is retarded. I couldn't care less about the libraries that VLC uses. So no, for now Linux's way of installing programs is not better than Windows'. It's not worse either, just as bad. I know there is an Add/Remove programs option in Ubuntu, but there are not enough applications in there.
"

This is an unfortunate misperception on your part. If you just select the single entry that says "vlc" or "mplayer" alone, as the case may be, Synaptic will automatically select for you all of the essential pieces that are required, and display the result of that selection. At that point you can see which of the vlc or mplayer components are essential (a minimal install, if you will), and which pieces are optional extras. Select as many of the optional extras as you want (which could well be none), then click apply.

"Another thinsg. Why would his gf automatically assume that somethign like limewire would be installed ny default, is it installed by default on a windows machine? I doubt it very much, in-fact you don't even get a default bittorent client. I do agree that the name shoudl be more coherent, but the fatc that transmission is there at all shows the real difference between Ubuntu and windows.

In-fact I want his gf to use a default windows install and see how far she gets, I'd bet money that she wouldn't get very far without severe issues. I'm not talking about an OEM "default" install, I'm talking about a default install of plain old windows. Even on an oem install I see issues down the line for this type of user.


Well, regular users have their computers set up for them. So it doesn't matter that Linux detects more hardware out of the box, or that it comes with more apps. The computer savvy friend will set up the machine whether it is Windows or Linux. In these days the user is expected to know just to use the machine, not set it up.
"

So if a regular user wants Ubuntu and knows he or she does not have the knowledge to set a computer up, the he or she should buy Ubuntu pre-installed, just as they would Windows or Mac OSX. You can buy Ubuntu pre-installed from Dell, Zareason or System76, or even Wallmart online if you must.

The point to note here is that if such a user actually did obtain such an Ubuntu system equivalent to the way they would obtain a vista system or a Mac OSX system, then the Ubuntu system would require the very least from them. It would all come installed for them, including applications, ready to go.

"Why would the user have issues with directory names the user should not be mucking about in anything but their home folder where directories are very clear as to what they do. Anything that downloads goes to their desktop. So I don't see the point on this one.


Then just don't let the user access anything but the home folder and make it super easy for them to find other partitions. For example - for Windows partitions auto mount them, put an icon on the desktop with the drive letter that the user sees in Windows. How the hell is my mom supposed to know what 283gB partition means?
"

This is an issue of naming.

Windows has the same issue but it is disguised through familiarity.

When my wife uses Windows, and she plugs in a USB stick, there is often a confusing menu presented of what she wants to do. She normally cancels this, because she is unsure. Through familiarity only, she knows that the actual files on the USB stick can be found in the "My Computer" window, but she never knows if it is going to be E: or F: or G: ... and has trouble deciding which one to pick if there are a number of options. Also, when looking at the "My Computer" Windows, she knows only through my telling here that her own "My Documents" area can be found under C:\Documents and Setting\her name\ . Still, to this day, she does not transfer files by dragging and dropping from her "My Documents" folder to or from her USB stick. Rather, she will open the document she wants in Word, and then "save as" onto the USB stick (and sometimes failing because she picked the CDROM drive letter by mistake).

I think that now Linux is much more user friendly than Windows in some aspects and it needs to be, to convince people to switch. I really hate it when people take this kind of criticism personally and immediately start comparing with Windows or MacOS X. It's not like Linux is perfect or couldn't be improved. The fact is that people know to use Windows since it's so widely spread.

To make them use your product you have to make it way, way better and as for the GUI make it either identical to Windows, super intuitive or do some serious hand-holding (with popups, video tutorials, visual cues and so on).

This state of denial won't make regular users switch. Linux has to be good on its own, period. Not somewhat better or comparable to the competition.


The only thing that would be required is if, when you walked in the the local computer store, the salesman had two machines to show you, side by side, exactly the same hardware for sale, but one with Vista and one with Ubuntu. The Ubuntu one was $100 cheaper, ran much faster on the same hardware, could do everything that the Windows machine could do with equivalent programs, and had all applications already installed for you (no extra charge), had a recent version of Wine that could run your odd Windows-only legacy application that you could not do without (and ran it better than Vista did), did not require expensive extra security software, and had no ads.

This is already the current state of affairs (in terms of what a end user would see if the choice was offered to them) ... except that Microsoft will refuse to allow such a side-by-side choice to actually be offered to people.

Edited 2008-04-29 10:52 UTC

Reply Score: 3

pandronic Member since:
2006-05-18

This is an unfortunate misperception on your part. If you just select the single entry that says "vlc" or "mplayer" alone, as the case may be, Synaptic will automatically select for you all of the essential pieces that are required, and display the result of that selection. At that point you can see which of the vlc or mplayer components are essential (a minimal install, if you will), and which pieces are optional extras. Select as many of the optional extras as you want (which could well be none), then click apply.


I don't mean to offend you, but this is what I was talking about ... denial. This is a part that clearly sucks - just accept it. I search for VLC and I see 20 entries ... WTF??? Or I'll accept that Synaptic is an application for advanced users, but then just give me a simple one that a normal user can actually make use of.

The Add/Remove thing is great, but could be greatly improved by adding all the software in Synaptic grouped by categories. Each piece of software could be reviewed by users and you could browse through tons of information that might help you make the right decision without the need to resort to Google or forums and shady sites.

Reply Score: 2

lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

"This is an unfortunate misperception on your part. If you just select the single entry that says "vlc" or "mplayer" alone, as the case may be, Synaptic will automatically select for you all of the essential pieces that are required, and display the result of that selection. At that point you can see which of the vlc or mplayer components are essential (a minimal install, if you will), and which pieces are optional extras. Select as many of the optional extras as you want (which could well be none), then click apply.
I don't mean to offend you, but this is what I was talking about ... denial. This is a part that clearly sucks - just accept it. I search for VLC and I see 20 entries ... WTF??? Or I'll accept that Synaptic is an application for advanced users, but then just give me a simple one that a normal user can actually make use of. The Add/Remove thing is great, but could be greatly improved by adding all the software in Synaptic grouped by categories. Each piece of software could be reviewed by users and you could browse through tons of information that might help you make the right decision without the need to resort to Google or forums and shady sites. "

Sorry, but I don't buy this, not for a second.

The "Add/remove programs" does group software into categories ... I don't follow your point at all here. You can browse through available software and treat it like a virtual smorgasboard ... and yes the software listed is all guaranteed to be non-malware and not the least bit shady.

If you are frightened of the more advanced choices of installation that synaptic affords you, then do your search for "vlc" or "mplayer" in Ubuntu's "Add/remove programs" utility. There will be just one "hit" for vlc, and just one "hit" for mplayer. Select it for installation, then go ahead and confirm that choice and you are done ... it autodownloads everything that you need and installs it and puts an icon on the menu for you. All done, easy peasy, far less clicks than any install method on Windows, and guaranteed no malware or time-limited trialware or adware or rubbish like that.

Both Synaptic (at a more advanced level) and Ubuntu's "Add/remove programs" (at a more basic "beginner's" level) are far, far in advance of anything available on Windows in terms of software installation from an end-user/owner perspective.

Windows apologists are the ones in denial if they cannot admit this.

Edited 2008-04-29 23:44 UTC

Reply Score: 2

apoclypse Member since:
2007-02-17

Well its really your fault anyway. If you don't know what you are doing in the first place why the hell are you using synaptic? Someone who needs hand holding installing packages should be using Add/Remove programs anyway, where all the dependencies and package details are well hidden from you. The fact that you are using synaptic signifies that you know what you are doing. Ubuntu included add/remove programs specifically for users like you. Synaptic is for power users, if you are complaining about synaptic then you clearly don;t fall into this category. Ubuntu has ensured that with a little direction (again that is why they have pretty decent documentation taking up precious diskspace).

All the complaints you had about categories and searches by apps only, are taken care of in the add/remove programs app. Even then it doesn't take a genius to only install the package with the the extremely visible Ubuntu logo next to it in synaptic.

Edited 2008-04-30 13:08 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE: my 2â
by phoenix on Tue 29th Apr 2008 02:29 UTC in reply to "my 2¢"
phoenix Member since:
2005-07-11


Anyway, Ubuntu. Yeah, I like this release. There are regressions for me that I had to manually fix with the help of others with the same problem. I guess they didn't affect enough people.

I got rid of Pulseaudio all together.


That's what I don't understand about Canonical's idea of "Long Term Release". Why are they putting in new, untested, beta, and just-barely-out-of-beta software into an LTS release? You'd think they'd spend the 6-months after LTS -1 prepping LTS -1 to become the LTS, fixing bugs, fixing regressions, fixing apps, and only adding new software that has been well-tested and well-integrated into the system. The LTS release should be more than just a moniker, which is all it is in Ubuntu.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: my 2�â
by jaylaa on Tue 29th Apr 2008 05:35 UTC in reply to "RE: my 2â"
jaylaa Member since:
2006-01-17

Yeah, I agree. In addition, the new GVFS stuff introduced problems that are beyond Ubuntu's control. With Pulseaudio, at least there's the hope that fixes will get into this LTS. But if the Gnome devs fix their bugs in the usual way, eg fixing them for the next release which is only in a few months, then this LTS might never get the fixes.

Reply Score: 2

Girlfriend test
by w3stfa11 on Mon 28th Apr 2008 19:31 UTC
w3stfa11
Member since:
2008-04-28

Canonical should've done a similar test before the launch of 8.04, so that they could fix those issues. The commentator and girlfriend bring up some important points, some of which are trivial to fix. Why is Transmission named such that no one knows what it is? Change it to Transmission Bittorrent Client or something similar. OpenOffice Draw in default installation?

They would have also seen what works, specificially how user-friendly Brasero is.

Edited 2008-04-28 19:32 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE: Girlfriend test
by sbergman27 on Mon 28th Apr 2008 19:52 UTC in reply to "Girlfriend test"
sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

Canonical should've done a similar test before the launch of 8.04, so that they could fix those issues.

Yeah I can see how well that would go over. The Ubuntu devs putting out a call to "Send us your girlfriends! It's for a good cause!". ;-)

Edited 2008-04-28 19:54 UTC

Reply Score: 12

RE[2]: Girlfriend test
by h3rman on Mon 28th Apr 2008 20:13 UTC in reply to "RE: Girlfriend test"
h3rman Member since:
2006-08-09

"Canonical should've done a similar test before the launch of 8.04, so that they could fix those issues.

Yeah I can see how well that would go over. The Ubuntu devs putting out a call to "Send us your girlfriends! It's for a good cause!". ;-)
"

Yeah, sudden growth in Ubuntu testers community expected. ;)

Reply Score: 5

Comment by tonyyeb
by tonyyeb on Mon 28th Apr 2008 19:38 UTC
tonyyeb
Member since:
2007-12-02

Linux will never win the desktop battle until a simple and 100% compatible software install method is used.

Reply Score: 1

Girlfriend approach
by IvoLimmen on Mon 28th Apr 2008 20:20 UTC
IvoLimmen
Member since:
2005-07-06

It's not that I don't like the approach, using a person that is not familiar with Ubuntu and have him/her execute some tasks to see if it really is user friendly. But it can not be done: the girlfriend in this case is NOT unbiased as she will have experience with other operating system: and that being Windows will not make it a really good test.
Plus: like anybody will ever read a manual? As a developer I tend to do so, and not just for Linux distro's...

Reply Score: 2

RE: Girlfriend approach
by bosco_bearbank on Mon 28th Apr 2008 23:00 UTC in reply to "Girlfriend approach"
bosco_bearbank Member since:
2005-10-12

... the girlfriend in this case is NOT unbiased as she will have experience with other operating system: and that being Windows will not make it a really good test.


The gf's bias is a desired feature of the test. The point was not to take someone who had never used a PC before and set them down with HH, but rather to sit a typical Windows user down with HH and see how they do.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Girlfriend approach
by Gunderwo on Tue 29th Apr 2008 01:59 UTC in reply to "RE: Girlfriend approach"
Gunderwo Member since:
2006-01-03


The gf's bias is a desired feature of the test. The point was not to take someone who had never used a PC before and set them down with HH, but rather to sit a typical Windows user down with HH and see how they do.


You're absolutely right, the majority of users to sit down at Ubuntu, or any flavor of Linux, will likely have some experience as a Windows user.

So this brings up a very important question for the developers and designers of Gnome, KDE, XFCE, etc.... and further down the line the distros that use these environments and attempt to polish them into a streamlined, elegant user experience. How much of windows do we want to emulate in order to make the switchers life easier?

Every desktop environment and distro may come up with a different answer for this question, as it should be. I see Ubuntu's role in particular as trying to make it is comfortable as possible for the switchers while still loosing the crappiness of some of Windows design and implemetation choices.

I really like the idea of context sensitive help and information. It should be presented in a obvious, but non intrusive manner. This is something that Mac has done a wonderful job of in many areas. The use of animations and effects to simulate real life experience to indicate what job is being done. For example, think of a window minimizing and visually shrinking into a dock or application panel. Or deleting a file and sseing it move to the trash. As much as some effects are for bling value. Well done effects can greatly increase usability.

However, things like how to organize the system, retrieve and install software, add/remove hardware really need to explained if there isn't a simple way to show it visually. But not all users want these explanations all the time nor the same level of detail. I like the idea of user modes. Allow a user the choice to easily choose a skill level and to adjust that level to get the prompts that will help them.

I know several people that actually like the popup bubbles in Windows that tell them what to do, and how to do it. I'm not saying all the help is useful, just that if popup info bubbles and tool tips are used effectively they can be a lot of help for a beginner. But bloody annoying for the intermediate or advanced user.

I think the mistake lies in trying to please everyone. Good design should consider that and make the transitions easier. Switching will likely never be completely painless. Bad habits are still habits ;)

Another problem is the assumption that a Computer should be easy to use with no training. We constantly train ourselves to do the simplest tasks like operating an elevator, a car (damn I hate anything approaching a car analogy, but I couldn't help myself), crossing the street. How many people do you know that would be able to effectively organize a filing cabinet without understanding how to alphabetize, separate, group, etc... To think that some one should be able to sit down at a computer with no instruction and effectively perform any of the millions of tasks that can be accomplished is silly. We should be looking at better ways to have the computer teach us.

And no matter how idiot proof we make a system someone will find a way to not understand how it works and blame it on the system.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Girlfriend approach
by IvoLimmen on Tue 29th Apr 2008 05:29 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Girlfriend approach"
IvoLimmen Member since:
2005-07-06

So this brings up a very important question for the developers and designers of Gnome, KDE, XFCE, etc.... and further down the line the distros that use these environments and attempt to polish them into a streamlined, elegant user experience. How much of windows do we want to emulate in order to make the switchers life easier?

Please NO! We will the OpenOffice.org problem all over again! The biggest problem I have with OpenOffice.org is that it is TOO MUCH like Office. Everything that sucks in Office is emulated! Clippy? Copied. Default 'i-can't-really-type-correct-so-i-lett-office-do-it-for-me features? Copied.

What's next? Blue screen of death? Drive letters? Please no!!!!!

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Girlfriend approach
by Gryzor on Tue 29th Apr 2008 12:34 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Girlfriend approach"
Gryzor Member since:
2005-07-03

Let me tell you that autocorrection feature of Microsoft Office is perhaps one of the best features you'll ever find. Your "I type perfectly so I don't need correction" attitude doesn't change anything.

The fact that a dictionary is constantly checking what you write and inmediately pointing out possible mistakes is very important. You just bash MS Office for pleasure. Microsoft Office is perhaps one of the best things Microsoft ever produced. It's thanks to Office that old typing machines were replaced. That people (still) jumps to the computers. You know, there are people out there still using paper.

Office has many UI problems, but it played to the "average user" a very important role in the last decade and beyond.

I personally have not used Office 12, but all I've heard (after you get used to the new ribbon stuff) is that it was an "excellent idea". I don't know, as we don't have the ribbon in Mac.

Ubuntu may be nice (have it since testing was available), but there are LOTS of stupid problems that the average user shouldn't see. Lots of incorrect decisions plague Ubuntu. So no, it may be very well integrated, but if you don't spend sometime with it, the average Windows Switcher will not be 100% comfortable with it.

And if you don't want linux to "replace" Windows switchers, then why spending time creating companies and improving user interfaces. Let's just use Enlightenment and or the command line and live with it.
Since that's not the case, Ubuntu and LInux distributions in general should aim to fix these issues. The very same way Apple is doing with his own OS. Time Machine brings Backup to Average Users. Almost transparently. One step at a time.

I can name (if you're interested) 10 things that are completely annoying under Ubuntu, and will -for sure- frustrate an "average user" in 1 second.

You gotta live with it. Computer users will possibly be Windows users. It's a standard. You don't "improve" standards in two days.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Girlfriend approach
by Gunderwo on Tue 29th Apr 2008 16:13 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Girlfriend approach"
Gunderwo Member since:
2006-01-03


Please NO! We will the OpenOffice.org problem all over again! The biggest problem I have with OpenOffice.org is that it is TOO MUCH like Office. Everything that sucks in Office is emulated! Clippy? Copied. Default 'i-can't-really-type-correct-so-i-lett-office-do-it-for-me features? Copied.

What's next? Blue screen of death? Drive letters? Please no!!!!!


Did you read the rest of my comment or just the first 2 paragraphs. If it wasn't clear I think we should emulate as much of the good or even expected behavior common to all desktops to ease transitions yet where Windows (or Mac or any other DE) has made poor choices Linux should attempt to implement things better.

Reply Score: 1

Ubuntu 8.04 & Xen server
by DRIQ on Mon 28th Apr 2008 20:45 UTC
DRIQ
Member since:
2008-04-28

I have downloaded both the 32 bit and 64 bit desktop to try it as a desktop. They both do what I need to do except one thing - virtual machine.

I use the desktop for every day tasks. In addition, I need to setup virtual machines for studies.

I heard paravirtualization is faster than full virtualization. I want to spend some time to study this topic.

Under both 32 bit and 64 bit desktop I did
# aptitude install ubuntu-xen-desktop.
Guess what? the xenman package is not there any more.

I changed to
# aptitude install ubuntu-xen-server
and then reboot the computer. Guess what? I do not have the network connection any more.

I thought this might be the problem with my network card, got an Intel e1000, same problem, I still do not have network connection.

I downloaded the 32 bit and the 64 bit server to try, xen server works fine. I have the network connection too. I need the Gnome desktop for other work. I did
# tasksel
and then select the Ubuntu desktop, guess what? I cannot install the Gnome desktop in dom0.

I have spent 3 days, but failed to get the desktop and xen work. Is it the kernel? the packages? or something else?

Reply Score: 2

RE: Ubuntu 8.04 & Xen server
by Gunderwo on Tue 29th Apr 2008 02:04 UTC in reply to "Ubuntu 8.04 & Xen server"
Gunderwo Member since:
2006-01-03

While I appreciate your frustration. I've had my own issues trying to get HH to run 'in' Virtualization.

A better place to ask and research your issues is the Ubuntu forums and Ubuntu's bug tracker launchpad.

However, your input on what worked and what didn't work for you and how that made you feel is completely valid here ;)

Reply Score: 1

Let Linux grow at its own pace
by cycloneous on Mon 28th Apr 2008 21:15 UTC
cycloneous
Member since:
2006-01-11

I hear quite often that Linux should be further in its path to take over the desktop at speeds faster than a speeding bullet. I think this is the wrong path to take, the hurry up and conquer path.

I like the pace Linux is going at, slow, but word is going around that there is a new dude on the block and its name is Linux. It is mind boggling that some want to take over the desktop NOW rather than let the market and the user decide. I'm for Linux world domination but at a pace that is reasonable and won't open the flood gates of "I told you that Linux thing is no good!"

Reply Score: 5

working better than ever, but
by transputer_guy on Mon 28th Apr 2008 21:25 UTC
transputer_guy
Member since:
2005-07-08

Well I retried Hardy Heron on a 5yr old AthlonXP 2400 mobo & PCI based nVidia card and finally got twinhead working at uber 2Kx1.5K per head. I also tried dragging the hard disk back to my much faster Intel board with PCIex twinhead, just breaks again, only works 1 head. Luckily it still worked when it went back to older setup (after some repairs).

I also found lots more stuff just works now that I never got to work before on previous tryouts, thats a huge relief esp the video drivers & codecs. That lets me try out maybe dozens of new apps like development tools for some future porting effort. Looking for something like CodeWarrior.

I am not too bothered about things working differently than Windows, pluses & minuses, you can argue one way is better than another forever. Generally more +s than -s, at least no activation & $.

The standout issue now is just performance, it is pretty obvious how sluggish the Gnome architecture is compared to say BeOS. which used to live on the same setup, that was far more responsive. For instance I open up 10 wallpaper pictures or Firefox windows and the OS is struggling with all the drawing. Really one should neve see how windows are drawn and the old Athlon has enough muscle to do that. Darn I moved BeOS down to an older 800MHz Athlon and thats still more responsive.

I have to wonder if Microsoft Windows developers actually keep a lab running alien OSes to see what's possible, they could certainly learn a few things as well as dismiss some. Gee if Windows installed as well as Ubuntu did, I could have saved untold hours.

For me its not about switching, but just getting work done on multiple platforms while generally enjoying each platforms virtues.

Reply Score: 2

RE: working better than ever, but
by Soulbender on Tue 29th Apr 2008 03:14 UTC in reply to "working better than ever, but"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

The standout issue now is just performance, it is pretty obvious how sluggish the Gnome architecture is compared to say BeOS. which used to live on the same setup, that was far more responsive.


Mayeb that's because BeOS does a fraction of the things GNOME does?

Reply Score: 2

transputer_guy Member since:
2005-07-08

Well the same things I did on BeOS I can now do on Ubuntu (surf, develop, play music, some video, twinhead etc) although of course Linux can do another 1000 other things too. But that hardly justifies the sluggish window handling does it? If I have to have Vista capable hardware to get decent Ubuntu performance, then that is sad.

Reply Score: 2

DeadFishMan Member since:
2006-01-09

"The standout issue now is just performance, it is pretty obvious how sluggish the Gnome architecture is compared to say BeOS. which used to live on the same setup, that was far more responsive.


Mayeb that's because BeOS does a fraction of the things GNOME does?
"

LOL. I knew that someone would come with that in order to justify GNOME's poor performance. It wasn't a matter of if but of when! ^_^

Reply Score: 2

RE: Content Consumer
by protagonist on Mon 28th Apr 2008 22:00 UTC
protagonist
Member since:
2005-07-06

I presume that Content Consumer has also determined that Windows Vista is not ready for the desktop? After having watched a few computer illiterate people play with Vista I would have to say that using his criteria he should conclude the same about Vista as he has about Ubuntu. :-)

Reply Score: 3

v RE[2]: Content Consumer
by raver31 on Mon 28th Apr 2008 22:34 UTC in reply to "RE: Content Consumer"
Computers need to appliances
by dindin on Mon 28th Apr 2008 22:34 UTC
dindin
Member since:
2006-03-29

Essentially, what web editing has become. In the early web days, it was quite easy to develop web pages by writing HTML on a text editor (it still is for a few). But most serious developers use tools that enable them to make the most out of the technologies.

Computers need to become the same. Like game consoles. They need to plug-in, select apps, use, save, and close it off. Expecting average users to do systems management is not going to be an expectation many customers will be willing to fullfill.

Reply Score: 2

Ready For The Desktop?
by jlacroix on Tue 29th Apr 2008 01:42 UTC
jlacroix
Member since:
2006-08-30

I'm really getting tired of the "Ready for the Desktop" argument with Linux. It's meaningless.

There are just as many (if not more) people that don't understand how to use Windows, but the press doesn't focus on them, they only focus on people that have a hard time with Linux. (It's an easier target for lazy journalists).

The truth is, Ubuntu/Linux is not any harder to use than Windows. As an IT Technician/consultant, I get people seeking my assistance all the time that can barely navigate Windows. People not knowing how to download and install a Windows application, people not even knowing how to use Google, you name it.

Yet, the press focuses on people that cannot navigate through Linux unfairly. It makes no difference.

The fact is, NO OS IS READY FOR THE DESKTOP. Not Mac, Not Windows, not even Linux. No OS will EVER be ready for the desktop, because to be ready for the desktop, it would be an OS that any person can use effectively, even those that can't tell the difference between a drive and a driver. This will never happen. People will struggle with Windows, people will struggle with Linux, people will struggle trying to find where to plug their keyboard in on the back of the PC tower.

The "Ready for the Desktop" OS would put people like me out of business, it would cater to every user (illiterate or not), everything would be automated, files would automatically be saved in organized file folders created by the OS, applications would install themselves without any user input, I could go on.

This will never happen, so can we please stop using "Ready for the Desktop"? It's not about "Ready for the Desktop" the closest it will get to that is "Ready for You". Linux can't and never will cater to 100% of the PC userbase, neither will Windows.

That's why there are choices. I don't use Windows. There's nothing wrong with Windows, it's a fine operating system, so is every operating system, but Linux just so happens (coincidentally) to be my Operating system of choice. It just happens to respond the way I prefer, so Linux is ready for MY desktop, but will never be ready for everyone elses.

Reply Score: 5

Computers Are NOT Appliances
by TheIdiotThatIsMe on Tue 29th Apr 2008 04:08 UTC
TheIdiotThatIsMe
Member since:
2006-06-17

[rant]

I am kind of baffled by all the comments that computers are appliances. Computers are not appliances, plain and simple. An appliance generally does one thing, and does it well. A fridge keeps food and drinks cold. A toaster toasts bread or bagels. A computer does *a lot* of things. When was the last time you saw a toaster create a playable music CD for your stereo? Or when was the last time you wrote an email from your clock? Computers are complicated, with multiple parts in both hardware and software, operating systems and drivers.

A computer is a complex device that must be learned how to use, same as a car. Would you hand someone who's never driven a car your car keys, and tell to go ahead on their own? After all, a well designed car should be so easy that *anyone* can drive it, right? I dont think so. Or would you take someone who is experienced in an automatic (Windows) and tell them to drive a stick (Linux/Mac) without teaching them first? Not if you want a transmission in tact when it's over. What the operating system is, is not as important as teaching a person *how* to use that operating system or their computer.

As for being "transparent" and those who argue we should not have to maintain our computers: Another bad analogy (I'm good at those). When was the last time you told a automobile manufacturer that their cars should be easy enough that they should not have to be maintained. No oil changes, no alignments, no new transmission fluid, no anti-freeze.

I do agree there are always things that can be done to improve, but I dont want to lose functionality to simplicity because everyone thinks this way or that way is best because it works for themselves.

[/rant]

Reply Score: 3

RE: Computers Are NOT Appliances
by sonic2000gr on Tue 29th Apr 2008 06:01 UTC in reply to "Computers Are NOT Appliances"
sonic2000gr Member since:
2007-05-20

Well said. Computers are not appliances. They are a mind extension tool. If you don't have one to begin with, (or are not willing to use it, which more or less means the same thing) you should not be using a computer. Computers are not difficult, but you have to understand what you are doing. We don't need monkeys pushing keys. As Einstein said, "We should make things as simple as possible, but not simpler"

Reply Score: 3

raver31 Member since:
2005-07-06

Agreed too.

Some people are really too stupid to be allowed to own a computer.

PC World and Dell should both have IQ tests to give to potential customers before purchase.

I speak with "Joe User" every day, and the first thing each and every one says is... "I am not computer literate..."

Hello...I know you aren't, thats why you call me !

The dopiest ones have impressive email addresses like www.joebloggs.com

I have explained to them that this is not an email address, but a website url, they all say "Whaaaa? but all my friends have this email address, but I cannot see any email from them"

Also, you get the people call who tell you they know nothing about computers, and when you try to talk them through troubleshooting, they are unwilling to go through with it, as you are talking to them in "geeky" terms, and they will damage the computer... Hello... it is broke, thats why you called.

I just want a big stick with nails in it, I would bash the lot of them, see if I can get some sense in there.

Edited 2008-04-29 07:24 UTC

Reply Score: 3

Gryzor Member since:
2005-07-03

Your attitude is so typical... the fact that you know how to work with computers means nothing. People with little computer experience can run circles around you in other areas, so please. lower your "i know computers you don't, then you're an idiot".

Your terminal skills are going to be of no use inside the cockpit of any modern jet aircraft (to put an example that applies to what I do). Can I laugh at you when you try to start a 737 engine?

C'mon. Linux will grow when people can use it and it's promoted. Else, will always stay as "the alternative os that a geek put in my computer so I don't have to use Windows that has lots of viruses and problems".

We can change that, only paying attention to small details like these. It's not stupidity, it's making it more simple; what's the problem with that. Why use the terminal, change a line in a config and do that stuff when you can click an icon. Think of it, it helps you too.

Edit: The fact that OSNews doesn't fully support unicode makes me laugh.

Edited 2008-04-29 12:52 UTC

Reply Score: 3

raver31 Member since:
2005-07-06

****yawn****

try to find out some details before you try to put someone down please.

Yes I have never flown a 737, so what ?

I spent 12 years in the armed services and I have flown both C130's and Tornadoes, over warzones. I am however, also a dab hand in helicopters but have also done over a year with a Lynx.

When I left the services, I wanted a trade that I could use in everyday life, I did a computing masters degree, so yes, I do know how to use a terminal.

I am not going to start with... "if I can do it, then so can others", but I stand by my assertion, if people are too lazy to learn how to use a computer, they should put it back in the box, take it back to PC World and tell the salesman they are too stupid to own a computer :p



BTW - I was having a laugh at the last paragraph, if it was not for these people, I would have to find another job.

Reply Score: 2

Gryzor Member since:
2005-07-03

It was a simple example. I could've said *ANYTHING* else that you don't do and it would have been valid. Don't waste your time posting useless responses.

The point is -in my opinion- completely not valid and elitist.

edited for typo

Edited 2008-04-29 19:14 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE: Computers Are NOT Appliances
by Morgan on Tue 29th Apr 2008 07:19 UTC in reply to "Computers Are NOT Appliances"
Morgan Member since:
2005-06-29

Another car/PC analogy. I know, they are inescapable among us nerds. However I would suggest one little change in your example: Windows is still "automatic", and Linux is definitely "stick", but Mac is somewhere in-between in my experience, sort of like Autostick or maybe paddle-shifters. No pesky clutch to learn ( as in the the console/command line) but you still have to shift the gears yourself sometimes (comparable to finding decent third-party software for Macs, perhaps).

Reply Score: 2

Contentconsumer Article
by Darkelve on Tue 29th Apr 2008 06:00 UTC
Darkelve
Member since:
2006-02-06

What Contentconsumer did, is kind of what they do in usability test; these things are necessary in order to evaluate how usable your product is.

Good thing though that several people/companies are already 'on this'.


"Erin has downloaded music using uTorrent before in Windows"

Hmmmm... I suppose I shouldn't draw conclusions too quickly... :p

"She downloaded a Spice Girls torrent"

Oops... this sounds suspicious. Is that song really free? *scratches head*

Edited 2008-04-29 06:06 UTC

Reply Score: 2

PPC version
by Morgan on Tue 29th Apr 2008 06:06 UTC
Morgan
Member since:
2005-06-29

I noticed this little tidbit on the Ubuntu downloads page:

Note to PowerPC (PPC) users: The PowerPC platform of computers is not supported by the newest versions of Ubuntu. However Ubuntu 6.06 is still supported and available for your machine. Please use the link above to view the complete list of download locations to choose a location near you.

That didn't sound right to me, so I did some googling and found the following:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=427714


That's right folks, there is indeed a PPC/Power5 version out there. I understand that PPC is no longer officially supported by Canonical, but why mislead users who might want to run 8.04, community supported or not, on their PPC boxes? If nothing else, a disclaimer about the different support formats and a link to the download page would have been awesome. I had the curiosity to explore further but what about the rest of the folks out there with Power processors who would be well-served by the unofficial port? Ubuntu is supposed to be about openness but this seems to be a closed attitude.

Well, rant over anyway. I'm downloading it now and hopefully it will boot and run okay on my eMac. I've had no luck with the "official" PPC supported version (6.06) -- while it does boot, it locks up before giving me a console or graphical desktop -- but perhaps community support will make the difference for me.

Reply Score: 2

not for ... whom exactly ?
by l3v1 on Tue 29th Apr 2008 06:44 UTC
l3v1
Member since:
2005-07-06

Linux won't truly be ready for the desktop until someone computer illiterate can sit down at a the computer and with little effort do what they want to do.


I think we've been through this about a hundred gazillion times, yet it always comes back. There is no OS on the face of this planet we are trying to kill so hastily that would need no skills and knowledge whatsoever from the user. There is no such an OS that someone completely pc-illiterate would sit in front of and with little effort could do what they want to do. This is nonsense.

Granted and true, Linux distros always required the [new] users to jump over a higher fence. So what ? If one can't jump it, or doesn't want to jump it, then so be it, look for lower fences you can cross over more easily.

Yet, one thing has to be said, since Ubuntu PRs itself to be the most userfriendly distro, they should put much more effort in making it require a lower jump.

Many of us don't care that much, still, if you're giving it to the masses saying it's easy, then they will expect it to be easy, which is not surprising actually.

Reply Score: 4

Same old problem
by drpatt on Tue 29th Apr 2008 16:54 UTC
drpatt
Member since:
2007-03-05

I installed 8.04 using Wubi(?) next to Vista on my new Gateway M-1625 with 2 GB. It quickly (in about 3 minutes) did what most distros have done on all of my PCs; it locked up. Big whoop. Who needs the hassle?

Reply Score: 1

hartvig
Member since:
2007-04-25

.... however 8.04beta outshines 8.04 release in that bluetooth actually worked in the beta...

Somehow pairing/trust is utterly screwed up in 8.04 release, YAY!

Oh and as far as I know they still haven't fixed the harddrive-killer problem... another YAY!

Other than that, yeah... 8.04 seems a step in the right direction, but its definitely NOT LTS quality.

Reply Score: 1

Tried it, scrapped it
by bb_matt on Wed 30th Apr 2008 15:14 UTC
bb_matt
Member since:
2006-01-04

I've been following Ubuntu for some time now, generally trying out each new release from the early candidates to the final build.

I'm currently using an oldish laptop hooked up to my TV to watch TV shows. I previously had Ubuntu 7.04 running on there, which had some nigglies, but generally worked. I decided to scrap that and went back to windows - it worked flawlessley.

When this latest version of Ubuntu was released, I once again loaded it up on the laptop - this time it was a simple test.

If Ubuntu could detect my TV and successfully play a movie on it - WITHOUT me having to edit any configuration files - it could stay.

Alas, it was not to be. Ubuntu managed to detect my TV, but wouldn't play a video on it - it would play the video on the laptop monitor, but showed a black screen where the video should've been on the TV screen.

I did what any typical user would do - fiddled with the supplied settings - and got nowhere.

Yep, I could edit my X11 config file and get it working, but why should I?

This very simple exercise - one which MacOS and Windows have been able to do for 10 years - completely escaped Ubuntu - it just wasn't up to the task.

This is the point I've finally reached with Desktop Linux - if things don't work as well as windows, out of the box, I'm not interested anymore.

I've given up on the dream.
I'll continue to use Linux as a dev platform at work, but that's about it.

Someone wake me up when Linux truly is ready for the Desktop...

Reply Score: 1

Elderly can't figure it out.
by ninja_in_pajamas on Wed 30th Apr 2008 16:28 UTC
ninja_in_pajamas
Member since:
2007-07-26

Though I do somewhat agree with what the third review said, he needs to realize it is not like that for everyone. Case in points are my wife and my mother. Both are computer illiterate, and with the exception of trying to figure out how to install applications, they both had no problems figuring out how to do whatever they wanted. I think if Ubuntu changed the name of Synaptics to something a little more obvious like install/remove applications, that part would have remedied itself right there. With every OS, there will be people who have difficulty making a switch to it. If you grew up on a Mac your whole life and then switched to windows, there would obviously be a bit of a learning curve.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Elderly can't figure it out.
by apoclypse on Wed 30th Apr 2008 22:49 UTC in reply to "Elderly can't figure it out."
apoclypse Member since:
2007-02-17

Umm. What? Add/Remove programs is clearly labeled in the application menu. That is what non-power users should be using anyway.

Reply Score: 2

lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

Umm. What? Add/Remove programs is clearly labeled in the application menu. That is what non-power users should be using anyway.


Absolutely.

http://www.screenshots-archive.com/ubuntu-804-hardy-heron-addremove...

You select the category on the right-hand panel (or you can choose to show all categories). The categories are the same as the top-level menu groupings of applications. You get a list of available applications in that group in the main panel with those applications of that group which are already installed shown with a tick in their box.

You also have a search capability, that will search for matching text in the name or description, and display all the matches in the main panel.

If you highlight any application, the lower-right panel will show you a detailed description of the application.

You un-tick those boxes that are already ticked (= already installed) in order to select them to be removed, or you tick those that are not already ticked in order to select them for installation.

Then you click the button labelled "Apply Changes".

Even grannies can do it.

Edited 2008-05-01 06:05 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE: Elderly can't figure it out.
by lemur2 on Thu 1st May 2008 05:25 UTC in reply to "Elderly can't figure it out."
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

Though I do somewhat agree with what the third review said, he needs to realize it is not like that for everyone. Case in points are my wife and my mother. Both are computer illiterate, and with the exception of trying to figure out how to install applications, they both had no problems figuring out how to do whatever they wanted. I think if Ubuntu changed the name of Synaptics to something a little more obvious like install/remove applications, that part would have remedied itself right there. With every OS, there will be people who have difficulty making a switch to it. If you grew up on a Mac your whole life and then switched to windows, there would obviously be a bit of a learning curve.


Ubuntu does have a utility called "Add/remove programs" that is right there in the very top-level menu. If I recall correctly, "Add/remove programs" is the ONLY actual program in Ubuntu's top-level menu ... all the other entries at the top level lead to sub-level menus.

It can't get more obvious than that, surely?

Synaptics (which is the advance but still GUI way to install programs) is actually down in the third level of menus, and it is called something obscure such as "Synaptics package manager".

So why on earth would a granny hunt around in the third layer of menus and find and use something cryptically called a "Synaptics package manager" in order to install programs in Ubuntu, when right there on the very top level of menus, bold as brass, is something plainly called "Add/remove programs"?

http://www.ubuntu.com/files/GutsyImages/Applications-Menu.jpg

Yep, there it is ... Applications -> Add/Remove ... the only application on the Ubuntu top-level menu ... all the other entries lead to sub-menus.

I am calling FUD/astroturfer on this one. I do not believe that this person's wife or mother ever used Ubuntu ... either that, or they just can't read.

Edited 2008-05-01 05:35 UTC

Reply Score: 2