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USB thumb drives are nice because of their size, but the best media for this repeated use is a external hard drive. It would be nice that 1.8" HDDs where as cheap and readily available as 2.5" ones.

Better yet, USB-connected micro HDDs (aka MicroDrives).

I'd say, dump the whole USB idea and rather opt for Firewire microdrives. That way, we will have awesome speed! Firewire is a much better protocol than USB for fast data transfer.

This is great! It actually works! I just booted off a USB drive! Awesome!

Why should nVIdia support software which isn't released yet?

Nicely said. Most organizations don't produce software for unreleased betas. That is the only thing I miss with Fedora 9. I think it would have been better to release Fedora 9 with a final version of X that way Nvidia drivers would more likely be ready for it. Other than that, after disabling SELinux everything works great.

That is a strawman.

Why would proprietary driver vendors support a release that is not being used? Fedora is a leading edge distro and there will always be some proprietary drivers that do not keep up with libraries within Fedora. This time it is nVidia. Last time it was AMD - even though X Server 1.4 had been released two months prior.

They have no financial incentive to support an unused product.

Now that Fedora is using X server 1.5 and it is stable if not final, nVidia will eventually support it.

What matters is that Fedora supports free software only and the drivers within the distribution work. Fedora should not have to wait for proprietary vendors to get their act together.

fwiw, X server 1.5 was originally planned to be released in March. When it looked like it was gonna miss that deadline, members of the Fedora community (Specifically Adam Jackson) stepped up to drive the xorg development cycle. It is those same individuals who decided that it was stable enough for production use in Fedora 9. The hard work of these individuals should be much applauded.

If proprietary drivers are too important to leave out for an individual, Fedora does not need to be downloaded and installed on day 1. Wait a few weeks and there will eventually be solutions. Or somehow support the free driver efforts.

In the case of nVidia products, "nouveau" should eventually be an acceptable alternative for most situations (maybe even eventually gaming. Probably a long way off for that). Give it a try.

/End rant

Nvidia is not to blame here. Nvidia is not distro specific. Xorg missed there release date. At that point Fedora unfortunately pushed ahead and released a pre-release version of Xorg for use. In this case they were a little too bleeding edge because like it or not users depend on the nvidia binary drivers to operate there machines. Fedora unfortunately caused a portion of there userbase to not be able to use Fedora 9 until Xorg 1.5 is released with this decision.

It does not matter who's fault it is, or even if it was the right choice (which it probably was - with the downside of "bad marketing" done by those who want nVidia proprietary drivers on day 1).

For most people this is a non-issue. For those who are being held back, give it a few weeks and nVidia will catch up. You do not need to upgrade on day 1. That is sometimes the price of using closed source software.

The Fedora community made the right choice for Fedora.

If nVidia drivers are so important that they are needed on day 1, try pressuring them into releasing specs (like AMD) or code (like Intel).

In your opinion. Please do not pass off your opinion as fact.

Yes it is my opinion. It is also the opinion of the person Driving the next release of Xserver 1.5

In other words the pre-release would have been a release if he had more time. It is a release in anything but name and driver have had notice of ABI stability for... at least 2 months.

So, yes it is my opinion. But I like to think it is informed after looking at both sides of the debate.

well ... there was only 3 choices.

rebase the entire release on the older xorg (and redo the entire test process) OR release the tested version, OR delay the release.

if you understand the effort to rebase, you would see that it is not really an option. After rebasing, you would need to rebuild many other packages and you would need to start the whole alpha, beta, rc test processes again for the entire distro. Since this process is a 3 or more month process, that is not going to happen.

The fact of the matter is, if you use binary proprietary drivers you will have these problems ... SURELY you don't think that linux development should be driven by proprietary graphics drivers.

Besides, the drivers that are released WORK for most nvidia cards, you just do not have accelerated 3D. That is going to effect SOME users where it is really a requirement, but not a large percentage.

The way the development process works, you basically make some assumptions 3 months (or so) ahead .. and a rebase of a major element (like X, GNOME, KDE) is going to render much (probably most) of the test process worthless ... since releases are happening every 6 months, basically a rebase is going to result in skipping the whole release (a delay of 3 or more months means you might as well just release at the NEXT 6 month time ... especially if something like RHEL depends on the release). At least that is my take.

Also realize that fedora 9 (and 6 and 3) are the main basis for RHEL ... so all the RHEL 6 that has taken place right now will be based on fedora 9 too. Makes this release fairly critical and the versions of the major components also very important.

Why shouldn't they at least have alphas in the wings for people willing to test them? It's no mystery what's coming down the pipes, there's little excuse not to run with it.

And as I said, it's not really a criticism of Fedora, but it is an issue

Edited 2008-05-20 12:26 UTC

True.

According to Phoronix, there is a new nVidia driver due any day now (actually it is overdue). No idea if it supports X Server 1.5. Or kernel 2.6.25.

AFAIK, the latest 173.X.X.X beta does work with X 1.5, you just have to --ignoreABI and avoid commands like glxgears and nvidia-settings.

And I completely understand the fact that, if no body ships X 1.5 it will never get support, but I'm afraid I can't use my desktop at 800x600 without 3d support.

They do for MS Windows! So why not for Linux based products. Many companies like ATI and nVidia start creating drivers while the next Windows version is still in development stages. That way, when the product goes live, the drivers are there!

Why does everybody treat Linux base software as second rate software compared to Windows???

Edited 2008-05-20 22:12 UTC

Surely this is obvious? The massive difference in user-base sizes is obviously what determines where the bulk of any companies resources are going to be allocated, so yes, when it comes to user-base and thus $, many companies, especially one such as NVidia which focuses heavily on the 3D gaming market which is historically stronger on Windows, would consider Linux second rate.

Probably, just habit. I've never really thought about it. I've pretty much always had nvidia cards. I've had decent luck with them on Linux, too. And, I've always considered them Linux friendly. But, I don't play games. So, if you're saying that you have better luck with Intel cards, I will keep that in mind for my next purchase. But, I tend to gravitate towards AMD boards. So, an Intel onboard card is unlikely.

But, I am like you. I will only buy hardware that is supported by Linux -- end of story.

Same here, that's why I chose nvidia in the first place. Since I tend to like AMD over intel, it was easier to find an nForce-based mobo (mine sports a gf 6150). It's never been a trouble for me, apart from having to install the propietary driver by hand. Until Fedora 9, that is

And I don't game on PC, that's why consoles were made for, but I usually do some OpenGL development.

My wife and I both game on Linux desktops as well as performance is a lot better in my opinion when using the nvidia drivers.

Unfortunately for me the integrated intel video was what caused the problem when I tried Fedora 9 the other night. Running glxgears would cause everything to lock and even randomly things would lock up. According to my research it was related to faulty intel drivers in that particular release and the solution was to go back to the stable X.org release from Fedora 8.

I fortunately don't need 3D. But i love the bleeding edge Fedora project.

I would say that Fedora IS a competitor to Ubuntu for at least some people.

It may not be suitable for those who don't want to upgrade every 6/12 months, but here Ubuntu is in the same boat. Ubunu LTS is for them. Or Centos, Debian or another distro with a longer support cycle.

Ubuntu seems to get a lot of comments about being easier for new users, but IMO one of the few things easier in Ubuntu is restricted drivers. The rest are more or less the same/similar. For some this is a major point. For others not so much. The only proprietary software on my Fedora 9 install is Adobe's Flash Player.

Except for that, the easiness of Ubuntu is a red herring. Most of that is Gnome technology which is generally shared by most distro's.

Ofcourse Fedora does not have the same level of good marketing as Ubuntu. But then again Most free software lack good marketing.

Edited 2008-05-20 17:13 UTC

You see, but that is the case NOW. That wasn't always the case. Ubuntu was easier to use than most distros and the other distros took note and have taken ideas from Ubuntu, that Ubuntu took from them and massaged into something useful to users. Ubuntu may not contribute a lot of code back upstream, but a lot of concepts are contributed back to the community. They didn't invent the live cd installer, but they made it essential, now all other distros do the same. They didn't invent the single cd install, but they do it well, other distros have taken the same approach and have released single cd version of their distro. Ubuntu didn't invent the repository structure they have now, but other distros such as RedHat have taken a cure form debian and Ubuntu and are now following suit. Fedora is a great project but its is not something I would recommend to users. Its too unstable and bleeding edge and there are major regression between versions. Ubuntu is a nice balance between edgy software releases and stable applications. They may not contribute in the traditional sense but they do contribute. For people to say other wise is being disingenuous, and ratehr insulting to a whole community of unpaid developers who have fostered and nurtured many OSS project through the vast the community of Ubuntu.

Fedora has a single repository where everybody contributes which is very much unlike Ubuntu which splits supported/non-supported/non-free etc into different repositories and different from Debian (no non-free repository) too. Not sure what you were referring to there.

The success of distributions is the ability to cross polinate technology and concepts however others distributions have taken so much of the technology from Fedora that is not very well known but a recent list would include:

* NetworkManager
* PulseAudio
* SELinux tools
* IcedTea
* Virt-manager, libvirt etc
* system-config-printer

This is in addition to HAL, D-Bus etc. A more comprehensive list would be

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/RedHatContributions

That's true, actually. Before I started using Ubuntu, I played with Fedora. In general, I'd found that Ubuntu's hardware support has been that little bit better on the systems I wanted to use it on. The situation may well be rather different now, due to stuff going into the mainline kernel. Also, I should note that the support available anywhere for some of that hardware was pretty poor so it didn't all work that well, even under Ubuntu. Not Ubuntu's fault, or Fedora's so much as my fault for buying a dodgy laptop



I think Fedora is closing the usability gap, if it hasn't done so already. I suspect it might have been true originally that Ubuntu was more user friendly in various ways but Fedora seems to include a lot of usability innovation these days.



Well, perhaps it would be fair to suggest that Ubuntu is has better support for more hardware platforms for now, which is indirectly a usability issue since lack of hardware support tends to involve users messing around on the console to make things work. This may be less of an issue nowadays. Ubuntu is also a little more conservative in what they ship, which I suspect is better in general for consumer-oriented use due to less teething troubles.

I think Fedora is a hugely cool project and it's a great example of Open Source innovating at super high speed.

I guess what I was proposing amounted to something like Fedora LTS but not exactly that. I think a hybrid approach of a stable core (like CentOS) with occasional well tested service packs to keep things up to date could make a nice target. It would give external packagers a more stable platform to hit, too.

I expect that the optimal range of solutions, whatever they are, will evolve over time though.

Actually, another thing which made me switch from Fedora to Ubuntu was the introduction of Kubuntu and the hope of distribution that treated KDE as a first class citizen. At the time I made the switch, Fedora didn't have the KDE SIG or a KDE spin. I also had trouble adding MP3 support to earlier versions of Fedora's KDE...

Since then I've been using Kubuntu and I've been rather happy for it. I've been disappointed that Canonical haven't put more resources into it though, many of their new friendly tools seem to target GNOME first or exclusively. I don't intend to criticize the Kubuntu developers since they've made a fine distribution and they contribute to KDE development. They're also very good at getting new versions of KDE packaged up really quickly for Ubuntu so that I can try them out ;-) However, I think they're somewhat under resourced compared to the GNOME side of things. It's Canonical's business where they put their resources, of course. I just prefer using KDE ;-)

Fedora seems to be moving forward in terms of supporting KDE well. With all the other developments also occurring in Fedora land I might be tempted to switch back. Not because Ubuntu / Kubuntu is bad but because I might like to benefit from some more bleeding edge features as long as the KDE experience is at least as good.

Red Hat has currently atleast two people working on KDE in the Fedora side along with three or four very active volunteers. They along with others have been running the KDE Special Interest Group in Fedora.

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE

There is a KDE spin that gives a experience very close to the upstream project. You can grab the live cd at

http://get.fedoraproject.org

A overview of the KDE 4 experience in Fedora 9 is available at

http://www.redhatmagazine.com/2008/05/14/fedora-9-and-the-road-to-k...

Fedora offers both Windows and Linux tools for creating bootable USB sticks (persistent, non-destructive). This is completely the first time any operating has provided this level of functionality. Lifehacker ran a review on it at

http://lifehacker.com/391067/fedora-9-puts-your-desktop-on-a-usb-dr...

Take a look at other functionality in Fedora 9 too

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/9/ReleaseSummary