Linked by Robert Escue on Wed 4th Jun 2008 05:06 UTC
Oracle and SUN Let's take a closer look at OpenSolaris, particularly its use of ZFS, network problems that people have reported, the use of bash, and differences between OpenSolaris and Solaris and Solaris Express. Note: This is the latest article in our OSNews Article Contest.
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ZFS
by evangs on Wed 4th Jun 2008 06:11 UTC
evangs
Member since:
2005-07-07

From the graphs, it looks like ZFS provides much better filesystem performance. Notice how the read speed peaks for small files (well, it plateaus not peaks...) where it appears to be almost double the speed of ext3. As the filesize increases, performance drops to ext3 peak levels and it maintains that performance throughout.

I think that is significant as predictable filesystem performance allows you to have a better estimate of how your server/workstation will perform.

Reply Score: 4

RE: ZFS
by Robert Escue on Wed 4th Jun 2008 19:04 UTC in reply to "ZFS"
Robert Escue Member since:
2005-07-08

I wished that I had more time and more hardware to test with, the iozone graphs definitely show some interesting patterns and it would be cool to see if they are limited by the hardware the test was initially run on, or it is a characteristic of the performance of the system.

Reply Score: 2

What's missing
by zdzichu on Wed 4th Jun 2008 08:25 UTC
zdzichu
Member since:
2006-11-07

I also can't locate Fibre Channel drivers for Emulex HBA I have in workstation. With Solaris "proper" it just worked all the time.

Reply Score: 3

RE: What's missing
by Robert Escue on Wed 4th Jun 2008 09:57 UTC in reply to "What's missing"
Robert Escue Member since:
2005-07-08

I didn't even think to look for the FC fabric packages, which are an integral part of Solaris 10. It is not a surprising move considering the target audience (for now).

Reply Score: 2

RE: What's missing
by binarycrusader on Wed 4th Jun 2008 13:12 UTC in reply to "What's missing"
binarycrusader Member since:
2005-07-06

I also can't locate Fibre Channel drivers for Emulex HBA I have in workstation. With Solaris "proper" it just worked all the time.


It likely isn't redistributable. Sun was unable to secure agreements for many vendors that allow free, unlimited, redistribution of certain components.

One of the key goals of the new OpenSolaris distribution was that anyone could redistribute it in any way.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: What's missing
by jjgorsky on Fri 6th Jun 2008 23:56 UTC in reply to "RE: What's missing"
jjgorsky Member since:
2008-06-05

"I also can't locate Fibre Channel drivers for Emulex HBA I have in workstation. With Solaris "proper" it just worked all the time.


It likely isn't redistributable. Sun was unable to secure agreements for many vendors that allow free, unlimited, redistribution of certain components.
"

So what happens to users of that hardware when OpenSolaris gets released as Solaris 11? Will users that followed the HCL, as Mr. Escue suggested, be left out in the cold or will binary drivers get bundled into Solaris 11?

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: What's missing
by Robert Escue on Sat 7th Jun 2008 02:44 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: What's missing"
Robert Escue Member since:
2005-07-08

More than likely OpenSolaris will not get FC drivers simply because it is targeted at desktop as opposed to Enterprise users. Solaris 11 will most definitely have them, along with SCSI and iSCSI support. But this is all speculation at this point because Sun could change direction tomorrow.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: What's missing
by mickrussom on Sat 7th Jun 2008 16:35 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: What's missing"
mickrussom Member since:
2006-05-13

If Open Solaris is targeted at the desktop, and not developers like SXDE and enterprise servers like every other version of Solaris, let me predict the outcome:

FAIL.

You seriously can't think that between Ubuntu, Blue Curve/RHEL, Gentoo, Windows and OS X, this thing has even a remote shot in hell?

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: What's missing
by mickrussom on Sat 7th Jun 2008 16:57 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: What's missing"
mickrussom Member since:
2006-05-13

Note all 3 work on (FC, SCSI, iSCSI) on RHEL.

This divided strategy is a proven failure by an OS with a lot more users: Fedora/CENTOS/RHEL.

Redhat tried to divide RHEL into WS/Server/etc.

Nearly everyone uses CENTOS, since it does not divide.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: What's missing
by binarycrusader on Sat 7th Jun 2008 23:17 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: What's missing"
binarycrusader Member since:
2005-07-06

"[q]I also can't locate Fibre Channel drivers for Emulex HBA I have in workstation. With Solaris "proper" it just worked all the time.


It likely isn't redistributable. Sun was unable to secure agreements for many vendors that allow free, unlimited, redistribution of certain components.
"

So what happens to users of that hardware when OpenSolaris gets released as Solaris 11? Will users that followed the HCL, as Mr. Escue suggested, be left out in the cold or will binary drivers get bundled into Solaris 11? [/q]

Sun will be providing alternate network repositories that allow access to non-redistributable resources.

In addition, the long-term support version of OpenSolaris will likely have additional options that are not currently available.

However, only Sun knows what they will do for certain.

I would encourage you to post about this issue on opensolaris-discuss.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: What's missing
by mickrussom on Sun 8th Jun 2008 03:45 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: What's missing"
mickrussom Member since:
2006-05-13

Trust me. Just go look up the pathetic ridiculous fighting over megaraid_sas and mfi.

They have TWO choices, plus they could simply rip the stuff right out of OpenBSD, NetBSD or FreeBSD, but someone actually did the heavy lifting and ported it for them. (Some random dude took mfi from openbsd and ported it lickety split).

Yet it took until svn_89 or something to get in. This has been going on for at least 18 more like 24 months. Check the Sun forums for a huge amounting of whining over PERC support.

Now try and get javaws for the Linux 64 JDK/JRE or the browser plugin for Linux 64. Its been 3 years (Since 1.5.0 FCS) since people started whining about that.

Sun has a lot of bureaucrats really choking the place. Lawyers and idiot PMs. Generally the engineering is top notch, but the branding and direction goes from rudderless to so so.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: What's missing
by jjgorsky on Sun 8th Jun 2008 07:51 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: What's missing"
jjgorsky Member since:
2008-06-05

However, only Sun knows what they will do for certain.


This is the key issue I see with Sun nowadays.

Reply Score: 1

Review of the Review
by segedunum on Wed 4th Jun 2008 10:00 UTC
segedunum
Member since:
2005-07-06

That the Gnome desktop environment is used and includes the standard assortment of desktop applications, except for office software (OpenOffice)...That OpenSolaris doesn't ship with the latest and greatest applications...That hardware support is still a problem...That Sun has a long way to go before the reviewers are happy with OpenSolaris.

Do you really need to know anything else?

Any significant attention paid to ZFS as the default filesystem other than the mention of it in the ArsTechnica piece.

Because a filesystem on its own is not enough for people to start praising OpenSolaris. There seems to be a misplaced automatic assumption that the mere mention of ZFS will be enough for everyone and cause mass drooling.

I do not spend that much time as root to justify a shell with an increased level of usability...

Well, most do, and the Unix-like operating system world has moved on now and better usability isn't just about being root. This is long overdue for Solaris, and it isn't really news.

I modified the /etc/resolv.conf to populate the file with good DNS servers and modified the hosts entry of /etc/nsswitch.conf and was immediately able to access the Internet.

That's as clear a case of networking not working as I've read. I'd be very disappointed if I had to resort to that on a Linux distribution (and I'd expect to see things like supplied hostnames handled OK as well), and it's a big reason why people use DHCP in the first place. The fact is, Ryan Paul couldn't get any of the networking tools to actually work and give him network access.

Sun tends to be a little conservative when it comes to adding software to Solaris, and I don't see the trend changing with OpenSolaris.

Getting up-to-date software in the Linux world is a perennial problem as well. Making this problem worse isn't going to help OpenSolaris.

I see this as good because I would rather have a stable platform that works than one that has all of the latest software that doesn't work.

I hear that argument all the time, but in practice it tends not to hold up. Software moves on, bugs and security problems are fixed in successive versions and general quality gets better. There's no evidence to suggest that using Gnome 2.20 is better than using Gnome 2.22 unless you're willing to backport fixes, as all the code goes into the new version. It still has all the same bugs and problems as it ever had, and having a very long incubation period doesn't solve the problem. Debian has this problem as well, as software versions they use become unsupported.

As long as you have a reasonable incubation, integration and testing period for your system, using a two year old piece software that no one is committing code to won't help you make things more stable.

Ryan Paul pointed out that an office suite was not part of OpenSolaris, this is the only real problem area I had with OpenSolaris.

I think it's fair to say that Sun's own OpenOffice developers don't use OpenSolaris as their development platform, and it shows.

While Sun is making attempts to appease the Linux community, Sun also cannot ignore the Solaris community (which I am a member of) who feels that while there is always room for improvement, that Solaris should be left alone.

The problem is that Solaris usage has declined dramatically over the past ten years, while Linux usage has soared, mainly because of a burgeoning enthusiast community. It's relatively easy to get Linux into the hands of someone, and demand has tended to shape how your average Linux distro looks today - the bash shell, NetworkManager, HAL, graphical installers etc. Many have just gone out and coded what they felt was needed.

This is why Sun have been pretty much forced into creating OpenSolaris. Leaving it as it is isn't an option if Sun wants it to be a viable financial investment unfortunately. It's not a great thing to say, but that's the bottom line.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Review of the Review
by binarycrusader on Wed 4th Jun 2008 13:25 UTC in reply to "Review of the Review"
binarycrusader Member since:
2005-07-06

"That the Gnome desktop environment is used and includes the standard assortment of desktop applications, except for office software (OpenOffice)...That OpenSolaris doesn't ship with the latest and greatest applications...That hardware support is still a problem...That Sun has a long way to go before the reviewers are happy with OpenSolaris.

Do you really need to know anything else?
"

It doesn't ship with OpenOffice because it has to fit on a single CD and there isn't any room for it right now.

It doesn't ship with the latest and great applications because OpenSolaris is FCS all the time. Meaning, the goal of the engineers is to be production ready all the time. Sun, unlike most GNU/Linux distributors doesn't simply throw a bunch of packages into a distribution and "call it good." Engineering and documentation evaluation is done for every single component shipped and that means things move somewhat slower.

"I see this as good because I would rather have a stable platform that works than one that has all of the latest software that doesn't work.

I hear that argument all the time, but in practice it tends not to hold up. Software moves on, bugs and security problems are fixed in successive versions and general quality gets better. There's no evidence to suggest that using Gnome 2.20 is better than using Gnome 2.22 unless you're willing to backport fixes, as all the code goes into the new version. It still has all the same bugs and problems as it ever had, and having a very long incubation period doesn't solve the problem. Debian has this problem as well, as software versions they use become unsupported.
"

Then, it should be fine, as Sun does backport many fixes and adds many fixes of their own. Sun doesn't just ship the raw bits that someone else produces.


"Ryan Paul pointed out that an office suite was not part of OpenSolaris, this is the only real problem area I had with OpenSolaris.

I think it's fair to say that Sun's own OpenOffice developers don't use OpenSolaris as their development platform, and it shows.
"

Wrong. Many of Sun's developers do use OpenSolaris, and they know they can easily install OpenOffice just by doing:

pkg install openoffice

While Sun definitely has room to improve things, things are nowhere near as dire as you would like to paint them.

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: Review of the Review
by segedunum on Wed 4th Jun 2008 14:33 UTC in reply to "RE: Review of the Review"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

It doesn't ship with the latest and great applications because OpenSolaris is FCS all the time.

Wow.

Meaning, the goal of the engineers is to be production ready all the time.

If you'd read what I'd written, using software that is several versions behind the current version does not make you 'production ready' and does not give you any less bugs unless you're willing to backport vigorously as Debian do. You also end up having a diverged codebase that produces bugs not seen upstream. 'Production ready' means absolute jack and is generally just used as cover for this development model.

Sun, unlike most GNU/Linux distributors doesn't simply throw a bunch of packages into a distribution and "call it good."

Well, they obviously have with this release because networking is a bit of a fundamental ;-). I had the same issue, and I was slightly astonished at what I had to do. I've never seen a system not just get an IP address from DHCP when asked. If that was a non-production ready Linux distro being reviewed it would be given a big thumbs down all round. I don't know what the article adds to that fact.

Engineering and documentation evaluation is done for every single component shipped and that means things move somewhat slower.

I'll come to you when I want to find some information on Sun's site then ;-).

Then, it should be fine, as Sun does backport many fixes and adds many fixes of their own.

Then what happens there is that you've effectively forked the software, as Debian does. This means that you're responsible for maintaining the software yourself, and in a project such as OpenSolaris that is trying to get more contributors and use more open source software and share resources for its own sake, that just seems a bit.......daft. At this point in time it isn't what Solaris needs.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Review of the Review
by binarycrusader on Wed 4th Jun 2008 14:43 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Review of the Review"
binarycrusader Member since:
2005-07-06


"Meaning, the goal of the engineers is to be production ready all the time.

If you'd read what I'd written, using software that is several versions behind the current version does not make you 'production ready' and does not give you any less bugs unless you're willing to backport vigorously as Debian do. You also end up having a diverged codebase that produces bugs not seen upstream. 'Production ready' means absolute jack and is generally just used as cover for this development model.
"

Sorry, but that's just wrong.

And yes, they do backport vigorously.

"Sun, unlike most GNU/Linux distributors doesn't simply throw a bunch of packages into a distribution and "call it good."

Well, they obviously have with this release because networking is a bit of a fundamental ;-).
"

Networking is supported on thousands of configurations. Unfortunately, in the PC world, there are millions of configurations.

On both my Desktop and Laptop, networking works just fine.

I had the same issue, and I was slightly astonished at what I had to do. I've never seen a system not just get an IP address from DHCP when asked. If that was a non-production ready Linux distro being reviewed it would be given a big thumbs down all round. I don't know what the article adds to that fact.


DHCP works just fine as far as I know. You haven't filed any bugs that I've seen, so I would suggest that you do so that any issues can be resolved.

"Engineering and documentation evaluation is done for every single component shipped and that means things move somewhat slower.

I'll come to you when I want to find some information on Sun's site then ;-).
"

Look at docs.sun.com, etc.

"Then, it should be fine, as Sun does backport many fixes and adds many fixes of their own.

Then what happens there is that you've effectively forked the software, as Debian does. This means that you're responsible for maintaining the software yourself, and in a project such as OpenSolaris that is trying to get more contributors and use more open source software and share resources for its own sake, that just seems a bit.......daft. At this point in time it isn't what Solaris needs.
"

No, that's what happens when you promise your customers that you will support them year after year. Enterprise-level distributions provide a certain level of stability and support.

In the future, you'll see OpenSolaris move to having six-month "bleeding edge" releases and a separate long term release to better streamline things.

Until then, complaining about software that is not that old (from a release perspective) is counter-productive.

As for the issues you've encountered, unless you file bugs, your complaints aren't useful.

Edited 2008-06-04 14:44 UTC

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: Review of the Review
by Kebabbert on Wed 4th Jun 2008 15:28 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Review of the Review"
Kebabbert Member since:
2007-07-27

Could you care to explain this?

"using software that is several versions behind the current version does not make you 'production ready' and does not give you any less bugs"

I thought it is a bad thing to run the latest bleeding edge software on production systems? But, hey, I am no sysadmin. What do I know?

Reply Score: 5

RE[4]: Review of the Review
by mickrussom on Fri 6th Jun 2008 14:49 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Review of the Review"
mickrussom Member since:
2006-05-13

When doing things right, you stage and test things before relying on them. Solaris zones are a big plus, along with staging hardware and a good suite of tests to help vet the software and hardware in action.

Just to know how I feel as a long time Solaris user - OpenSolaris 2008.05 is not only not production-able, I doubt this lineage of software ever will be.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Review of the Review
by MattPie on Wed 4th Jun 2008 17:27 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Review of the Review"
MattPie Member since:
2006-04-18


Well, they obviously have with this release because networking is a bit of a fundamental ;-). I had the same issue, and I was slightly astonished at what I had to do. I've never seen a system not just get an IP address from DHCP when asked. If that was a non-production ready Linux distro being reviewed it would be given a big thumbs down all round. I don't know what the article adds to that fact.


My initial thought is you haven't been around very long then if you haven't had issues with DHCP clients. I don't know you, so I won't actually say that, but I've had to fight with DHCP on Linux, FreeBSD, IRIX, and Solaris in the past. Granted, Linux and FreeBSD are a lot cleaner with DHCP nowadays, but there used to be some serious issues.

On the flip side, I've had all kind of trouble using static IPs (!!) with Fedora 9. NetworkManager seems to get rather confused, my network adapter (Intel built-in on a Dell Latitude) doesn't always show up in the GUI, and I had to tweak a few things to have the interface come up on boot. I need to look for a bug report on that one...

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Review of the Review
by jjgorsky on Fri 6th Jun 2008 06:58 UTC in reply to "RE: Review of the Review"
jjgorsky Member since:
2008-06-05

It doesn't ship with the latest and great applications because OpenSolaris is FCS all the time.


No it's not.

Meaning, the goal of the engineers is to be production ready all the time.


But it isn't.

Sun, unlike most GNU/Linux distributors doesn't simply throw a bunch of packages into a distribution and "call it good." Engineering and documentation evaluation is done for every single component shipped and that means things move somewhat slower.


This has never been true. Let's go back to day one. Sun never even implemented SysV packaging properly, for example. Sun's own docs on BigAdmin make reference to the fact that Sun sed is horribly broken. Yet it is broken to this day, and they won't bundle gsed with the OS.

Reply Score: 1

To Article Author
by binarycrusader on Wed 4th Jun 2008 13:20 UTC
binarycrusader
Member since:
2005-07-06

Examining the CD I found that the directories and files normally associated with creating Flash Archives and building a JumpStart server and clients were missing. For those of us who use JumpStart and Flash to build and clone machines, this is a major omission. I can only hope that subsequent releases include this functionality because it would be a shame not to have them.


JumpStart and flasharchives as you know them today are not coming back from what I understand. Similar functionality will be provided, but the previous tools, are not equipped to deal with ZFS root, etc. properly. I have also been told that parts of these tools are "encumbered" by third-party licenses.

But fear not, there will be an equivalent, eventually.

The graphical management tools found on Solaris and Solaris Express, the Solaris Management Console (SMC) and webconsole used for the graphic administration of ZFS volumes are also not part of OpenSolaris.


I would encourage you to install Visual Panels from the pkg.opensolaris.org repository. Visual Panels will be replacing SMC.

Ryan Paul pointed out that an office suite was not part of OpenSolaris, this is the only real problem area I had with OpenSolaris.


There is no space left on the CD for an office suite. As it is, there is just barely enough room on the CD for what is there. Unlike many GNU/Linux distributions, Sun doesn't split their 32-bit and 64-bit platforms, and they have better multi-lingual support on a Single CD.

My attempt to download OpenOffice from pkg.opensolaris.org resulted in me only getting the database product.


Since many users have downloaded and installed OpenOffice from pkg.opensolaris.org (such as myself) I'd like to know how and what you did to try to install this.

Downloading OpenOffice and installing it failed with not being able to find Java despite it being present. While I was in the final phases of writing this I was able to successfully install OpenOffice 2.4 on the Gateway laptop.


Please report the specific steps to reproduce your desktop issue by filing a bug at http://defect.opensolaris.org/

Cheers.

Reply Score: 4

RE: To Article Author
by Robert Escue on Wed 4th Jun 2008 17:03 UTC in reply to "To Article Author"
Robert Escue Member since:
2005-07-08

Thanks for the info on the replacement for JumpStart and Flash, I live and die by JumpStart and Flash. I also was not aware of Visual Panels, I'll have to check that out. And finally, my bad for not submitting a bug on the OpenOffice issue.

Reply Score: 3

rationalizations
by vsync on Fri 6th Jun 2008 06:35 UTC in reply to "To Article Author"
vsync Member since:
2008-06-05

There is no space left on the CD for an office suite. As it is, there is just barely enough room on the CD for what is there.


Most other OSes have moved to DVDs by now, or at least offer the option. We saw at JavaOne what happens when you count on always having a fast net connection available.

Unlike many GNU/Linux distributions, Sun doesn't split their 32-bit and 64-bit platforms


Why not? It seems like a sensible idea.

Reply Score: 1

RE: rationalizations
by binarycrusader on Sat 7th Jun 2008 23:20 UTC in reply to "rationalizations"
binarycrusader Member since:
2005-07-06

"There is no space left on the CD for an office suite. As it is, there is just barely enough room on the CD for what is there.


Most other OSes have moved to DVDs by now, or at least offer the option. We saw at JavaOne what happens when you count on always having a fast net connection available.
"

A startlingly large majority of Sun's customers and potential customers surveyed apparently have CD-ROM drives instead of DVD drives. In fact, many of them don't have either!

In addition, since one of the target audiences was developing countries, keeping the install medium minimal was important.

I suspect Sun may end up offering an alternate version that provides the full content of the CD with an on-disk repository eventually.

However, only they know what their plans are long-term.

Unlike many GNU/Linux distributions, Sun doesn't split their 32-bit and 64-bit platforms


Why not? It seems like a sensible idea. [/q]

Because eventually, it is 32-bit support that will no longer be needed.

And, in my opinion, because it makes all platforms first class citizens.

Unlike most GNU/Linux distributions, Solaris supports a mixed 32-bit/64-bit environment that is virtually seamless to the user.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: rationalizations
by Robert Escue on Sun 8th Jun 2008 00:46 UTC in reply to "RE: rationalizations"
Robert Escue Member since:
2005-07-08

I was asked by Sun about the DVD only option some time ago and I responded that Sun needed to consider the customers who use older hardware that either does not support a DVD drive, or that the necessary drive no longer exists. A lot of people within DoD tend to hang on to their older hardware for years. I am still seeing Ultra 1's, 2's, 5's and 10's slowly being sent out to DRMO by some and others scarfing them up because the projects they work on have no budget. Of course Sun went with the DVD option, but that is no big deal if you download the ISO and use lofiadm or use JumpStart.

For people who don't have a lot of experience with Solaris, they wouldn't know about being able to run 32 and 64-bit apps with no complaints and no real need for separate versions based on architecture.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: rationalizations
by mickrussom on Sun 8th Jun 2008 04:31 UTC in reply to "RE: rationalizations"
mickrussom Member since:
2006-05-13

Because eventually, it is 32-bit support that will no longer be needed.

Its shocking to me that the company which invented the first implemented 64 bit OS and did it very well, far better than say, WOW64 crud on Windows, that the x86 installer up to solaris 10u5 is still 32-bit in x86 mode.

If sun is not going to offer a 64 bit installer for Solaris 10, but gives out DVDs of Solaris 10, I really dont get how the "old machine" crap is a valid excuse.

And yes, you do need a 64-bit installer unless you want a system with a dedicated boot disk, (which is sane), because the 32-bit solaris 10 kernel gets pissed at partitions larger than 1TB - for no valid reason.

Reply Score: 1

RE: To Article Author
by jjgorsky on Fri 6th Jun 2008 07:03 UTC in reply to "To Article Author"
jjgorsky Member since:
2008-06-05

Unlike many GNU/Linux distributions, Sun doesn't split their 32-bit and 64-bit platforms, and they have better multi-lingual support on a Single CD.


So what? LC_ALL=C. Done.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: To Article Author
by mickrussom on Fri 6th Jun 2008 07:23 UTC in reply to "RE: To Article Author"
mickrussom Member since:
2006-05-13

Oh, don't forget that Solaris x86 uses the 32-bit installer on a 64-bit machine, and that, for no valid reason at all, prevents the making of filesystems larger than 1TB. (fixed in OS 2008.05, but 2008.05 is broken, but not fixed in solaris 10u5, so sun knows about it and gives the finger to the base).

Oh, and don't forget that GUID partition tables are not readable by a number of the family of snu-supplied disk utilities. (still busted in 2008.05).

Oh, and don't forget UFS's cluster size goes from 8192 @ 0.99TB to 1048576 at 1TB. (And ZFS is still not able to not fail under heavy loads so we are stuck with ufs and 1MB block sizes).

Oh, and /usr/ucb/ps is gone and SMC doesnt and get this, Java Web Console doesnt either.


LANG=C=true
LC_ALL=C=true

Reply Score: 1

segedunum
by Kebabbert on Wed 4th Jun 2008 13:25 UTC
Kebabbert
Member since:
2007-07-27

I dont get it, why are you always bashing Solaris as soon you see an article? You can not help to spew out gall on Solaris, you can not control yourself? Obviously, Solaris must have hurt you deep sometime. I wonder, what happened? Tell me. Solaris made you loose your first job? You ran a big site using Solaris, and the site crashed making you a laughing stock? Something must have happened. This focus on Solaris is not normal, nor healthy. Solaris is not the root of all evil. I dont get it?

Reply Score: 5

RE: segedunum
by segedunum on Wed 4th Jun 2008 16:00 UTC in reply to "segedunum"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

You can not help to spew out gall on Solaris, you can not control yourself? Obviously, Solaris must have hurt you deep sometime.

Wow....... An entire post about me because I don't see where Solaris is heading, don't see how Sun will make OpenSolaris financially viable, don't see how it will attract wider open source developers and don't see how an article painting over the problems a few reviewers had is going to solve anything?

I wonder, what happened? Tell me. Solaris made you loose your first job? You ran a big site using Solaris, and the site crashed making you a laughing stock? Something must have happened.

No, but now you mention it, a few years ago I did see the look on a Sun engineer's face, who came in on not an inexpensive rate, when he saw the excruciatingly expensive UltraSparc IV running Solaris get totally creamed away by a factor of 4 (pystones) by a very dusty 1.4GHz desktop Athlon machine when running a Python and Zope site - after Python had been recompiled in Forte by him :-). Silence.......

[The GNU portion of Solaris's /usr/sfw/bin directory is still pretty spartan to this day.]

My employer wasn't amused either, especially after my standard response (and that of the Python developers) to our Solaris enthusiast was to just use Linux and x86 if you were using open source software. The Sun engineer babbled something about GCC not being production ready, SPARC being more solid and production ready than x86 and Linux being a poor Unix clone, or some line like that. He was never seen again.

I suppose I just find it a bit sad that that attitude hasn't changed, nor has Sun really changed anything around Solaris as a response, many years after that experience and three years after OpenSolaris's inception. After all that teeth pulling, I just find it daft when Sun says "It's just like Linux and open source!" when it isn't, and when it gets reviewed someone writes a response that says "Actually, you're wrong, I edited these files to get it working and you should have reviewed this cool new thing instead".

This focus on Solaris is not normal, nor healthy. Solaris is not the root of all evil. I dont get it?

Reverse psychology mate ;-). This post definitely isn't normal, nor has it been implied that Solaris is 'evil' anywhere. What's been written is what's been written, nothing more. The Sun engineer believed I had something personal against him and Solaris as well for some reason. Must be something in the water ;-).

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: segedunum
by Arun on Wed 4th Jun 2008 16:18 UTC in reply to "RE: segedunum"
Arun Member since:
2005-07-07


No, but now you mention it, a few years ago I did see the look on a Sun engineer's face, who came in on not an inexpensive rate, when he saw the excruciatingly expensive UltraSparc IV running Solaris get totally creamed away by a factor of 4 (pystones) by a very dusty 1.4GHz desktop Athlon machine when running a Python and Zope site - after Python had been recompiled in Forte by him :-). Silence.......


Erm Sun sells the latest and greatest AMD and Intel processor based systems with linux, windows or Solaris that are far better engineered than the competitors.

Talk about stupid trolls.

Bashing Sun for only selling SPARC is so stupid its not even funny.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: segedunum
by Robert Escue on Wed 4th Jun 2008 16:27 UTC in reply to "RE: segedunum"
Robert Escue Member since:
2005-07-08

Why does this sound similar to the tale I was told by a RedHat sales droid about an application that ran poorly on a SunFire 6800, but magically ran better on 10 dual CPU x86 boxes running RHEL?

The devil is in the details, so how about providing some details instead of just telling us a story. There had to be a reason for the poor performance and I would hope that you were running some sort of monitoring tools to capture some useful information.

I just don't buy "the performance sucked until I ran it on this" nonsense.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: segedunum
by snozzberry on Wed 4th Jun 2008 23:06 UTC in reply to "RE: segedunum"
snozzberry Member since:
2005-11-14

Zope site

facepalm

Reply Score: 1

RE: segedunum
by Robert Escue on Wed 4th Jun 2008 18:49 UTC in reply to "segedunum"
Robert Escue Member since:
2005-07-08

Sour grapes.

Reply Score: 1

Good Article
by jwwf on Wed 4th Jun 2008 13:58 UTC
jwwf
Member since:
2006-01-19

I think the author hit all of the major points where things are "a little weird" in the initial release.

One thing that I did think was cool was how it snapshots the root volume immediately after the install, automatically, so you can roll back to the "pristine" state if you want to.

I really like the default theme, much more than, say, Ubuntu (which isn't ugly either).

The use of IOzone reminds me; I recently had a chance to use the latest version of Sun's Filebench, on Linux no less. It's a great tool. Early versions were kind of bleeding edge and hard to get going on anything but Solaris, but that seems fixed.

Nothing like a multithreaded Postmark workload to bring a 100 MB/s sequential array down to 1.8 MB/s effective throughput ;)

Reply Score: 2

RE: Good Article
by sfjuggernaut on Wed 4th Jun 2008 16:58 UTC in reply to "Good Article"
sfjuggernaut Member since:
2006-07-14

Glad to hear you like FileBench. I'll note that it is now included by default with OpenSolaris at /usr/benchmarks/filebench.

I'm actually in the process of integrating some Linux changes submitted by Richard McDougall. OpenSolaris, Linux, and OSX are our three main platforms right now, and we want them all to be reliable.

For those not familiar, check out:
http://www.solarisinternals.com/wiki/index.php/FileBench

Reply Score: 2

RE: Good Article
by Robert Escue on Wed 4th Jun 2008 17:04 UTC in reply to "Good Article"
Robert Escue Member since:
2005-07-08

Thanks, glad you liked it.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Good Article
by ebasconp on Wed 4th Jun 2008 18:50 UTC in reply to "RE: Good Article"
ebasconp Member since:
2006-05-09

I am not a system admin at all , but I liked your article too...

There is no comparison between an article written for some people that is dedicated to write articles and an article written for technical people that grew and learned some stuff based on his own experience; the later is richer because it destilates wisdom.

Congrats!

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Good Article
by Robert Escue on Wed 4th Jun 2008 18:58 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Good Article"
Robert Escue Member since:
2005-07-08

Thanks. Forget that I am a system administrator and I have been doing it for almost 9 years. I just find it amazing that people read reviews that are nothing more than a rehash of the Release Notes and think they are great.

To me a review is where the author actually takes the subject of the review out for a test drive and finds out what works and what doesn't, and writes what he or she experiences during the review process. But I have been wrong before ....

Reply Score: 4

RE: Good Article
by Luminair on Wed 4th Jun 2008 17:40 UTC in reply to "Good Article"
Luminair Member since:
2007-03-30

Yeah I am surprised but it is actually decent.

The part about changing the shell and the role is golden. I've read the opensolaris forum and have never seen this tip:

For those who want to change the shell back to /bin/sh, or whatever you like is a two step process, the first is to remove root as a role using the following command:
rolemod -K type=normal root

Once that is done, using usermod -s, you can change the shell for root to the desired shell.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Good Article
by Robert Escue on Wed 4th Jun 2008 23:51 UTC in reply to "RE: Good Article"
Robert Escue Member since:
2005-07-08

The commands needed were not together, first I used the rolemod command as described here:

http://dlc.sun.com/osol/docs/content/IPS/login.html

Then it is simply a matter of using usermod to change the shell for root. I am actually surprised that Sun didn't have instructions on how to do this, or maybe they figured nobody would want to change it.

Reply Score: 2

works for author, doesn't work for others
by Abaddon on Wed 4th Jun 2008 17:00 UTC
Abaddon
Member since:
2006-06-23

The whole article can be a lot shrorter. It would look like this: "I have hardware that OpenSolaris supports, I know how to use Solaris so I don't know why others complain".

Edited 2008-06-04 17:00 UTC

Reply Score: 1

Robert Escue Member since:
2005-07-08

Why it works for me and doesn't for others is becuase I build systems with hardware that is supported by all operating systems. I can install any flavor of Linux, Solaris and Windows on the same machine becuase I bought hardware that supports all of the operating systems I just mentioned. The exception to this is the laptop which I pointed out in the article, which had hardware I knew was not supported.

Where I have the disconnect with people who complain about hardware support is why they buy hardware that doesn't work with the OS they want to use and then complain that the OS doesn't support it. If the user cannot read the HCL for the operating systems they intend to install on their machine and later find out that something doesn't work is not the fault of the OS, it is the fault of the user.

Reply Score: 4

Abaddon Member since:
2006-06-23

"Where I have the disconnect with people who complain about hardware support is why they buy hardware that doesn't work with the OS"

When someone was buying his computer 2 or 3 years ago he didn't know if he will try Solaris (or BSD, Linux, whatever) or not.

BTW. OpenSolaris doesn't support my USB mouse which is supposed to work out of the box (and yes, I know how to configure mouse).

Reply Score: 1

Robert Escue Member since:
2005-07-08

The hardware I have used to test OpenSolaris is several years old, both have ATI video cards. The only "recent" piece of hardware is the Intel Pro/1000 NIC in the Pentium IV box. I have been able to do it by purchasing quality components that are supported by multiple operating systems, so yes you can.

In regards to the USB mouse problem, that has been hit and miss. Several people here have mentioned having mouse issues, I haven't experienced that problem or I would have mentioned it.

Reply Score: 2

jwwf Member since:
2006-01-19

I think that's unfair. Look at it this way, would you rather hear from someone who actually knows what he is talking about, or someone who just says, "Well, it's not like what I am used to. What's wrong with those fools at Sun, why can't they just be like {insert fav os here}" ?

Reply Score: 2

Robert Escue Member since:
2005-07-08

That's not the point some people try to portray here, it is far easier to attempt to make someone out a jerk rather than admit that the author may actually be right.

I have been using Solaris x86 for 10 years, so I know what hardware works. And why Solaris x86, Solaris Express and OpenSolaris works flawlessly on my hardware is because I bought supported hardware and didn't try to use things not on the HCL. I guess for some that is a hard pill to swallow.

Reply Score: 2

mickrussom Member since:
2006-05-13

I have SunOS 4.1.4 original media here, as well as a Sparcstation 2 4/75, and even a Sparcstation 20 with 4xCPU config.

I have an Ultra 80 as well.

You can't roll back the clock as far as I can.

About 2 years ago, for nostalgia, I fitted a 50 Pin 18GB Seagate (ST318418N , the "original" Barracuda 36-ES2) into the 4/75.

Lets not try an assail people for being noobs because they complain. You might be suprised.

Reply Score: 1

Honk! Honk!
by Weeman on Wed 4th Jun 2008 17:58 UTC
Weeman
Member since:
2006-03-20

Ignoring segedunum in Solaris threads is better for anyone's mental health. His posts regarding *nix can simply be summarized in "All hail Linux!"

Reply Score: 1

RE: Honk! Honk!
by Robert Escue on Wed 4th Jun 2008 19:37 UTC in reply to "Honk! Honk!"
Robert Escue Member since:
2005-07-08

Agreed!

Reply Score: 2

Solaris 2008.05 - bad direction
by mickrussom on Wed 4th Jun 2008 22:37 UTC
mickrussom
Member since:
2006-05-13

As a solaris admin, this has been a bad experience.

I've been routinely breaking ZFS with SunVTS 6.4 and 7 when combined with other loads. First they were panics, a few files becoming locked such that the OS needed rebooting, and other misc. things.

2008.05, as a person accustomed to Solaris, is simply not an option and never will likely be an option to Solaris 10. This new layout is more of a reason to move over to Linux, not less.

The installer has taken away a lot of options, the X-server didn't work correctly, had to use the vesa driver, the kernel itself seems to be improved but the userland is simply a terrible mashup.

A lot of bundled applications dont work anymore, a lot of applications that used to be bundled are gone, I dont understand the motivation for most of the changes, Solaris 10u5 is clearly more usable, and 2008.05 is certainly not useful for production.

I hope Sun doubles back and focuses on keep Solaris 10 alive for a long, long time. I would consider solaris 10 primary, this new stuff secondary. Its really untenable.

I also think that Sun needs to get megaraid_sas or mfi into Solaris 10 and 2008.05 (not that it matters to me) as soon as possible.

If it weren't for the nice looking future zfs has (its a good effort, no doubt), and the file system snapshots (fssnap) and great volume management from disk suite to zfs, I would jump over to CentOS or an other sustained linux today. (I think dumping, snapshotting and LVM are rather not-so-good on Linux).

Sun needs to hunker down and keep Solaris 10 going as a first class project.

Also, Sun, please, for the love of all that is holy, please include javaws and the browser plugin for 64-bit Linux. Please, pretty please with sugar on top. Its been 3+ years now.

Reply Score: 1

Robert Escue Member since:
2005-07-08

On what hardware are you having trouble with ZFS? And why are you running SunVTS on it? If you are trying to stress the filesystem I would use iozone.

The reason why the OpenSolaris installer took away options is because inexperienced users were complaining to Sun about the installation being too difficult and having to make too many decisions.

What bundled applications are you talking about? Specifics are nice.

And why should Sun write a driver for an AMI device? If AMI wants to support Solaris, then maybe AMI needs to talk to Sun about driver support for their hardware. It simply isn't Sun's problem.

Reply Score: 2

mickrussom Member since:
2006-05-13

On what hardware are you having trouble with ZFS? And why are you running SunVTS on it? If you are trying to stress the filesystem I would use iozone.

The reason why the OpenSolaris installer took away options is because inexperienced users were complaining to Sun about the installation being too difficult and having to make too many decisions.

What bundled applications are you talking about? Specifics are nice.

And why should Sun write a driver for an AMI device? If AMI wants to support Solaris, then maybe AMI needs to talk to Sun about driver support for their hardware. It simply isn't Sun's problem.


Warning, seems I've been accosted by a Sun apologist... (Note, I've been using Solaris / SunOS since 4.1.4 (I have original media)).

#1 Thumper is the hardware.

#2 Don't tell me how to stress my boxes. Solaris doesnt fail the stress test with UFS, but it does with ZFS, so what the hell does that have to do with IOZONE? I know how to break file systems, thank you, I dont need you to tell me how.

#3 Ok, let me come up with a list for you, do you want it in PDF, PS, HTML, let me know. Since I have to convince you...

#4 Yes, it is. You see, that driver is needed by a lot of hardware. A nice person made an mfi driver, and made it open source/BSD license. Sun's ridiculous bureaucracy can't get the stuff together to choose either LSI's existing and working megaraid_sas driver (it doesnt work so well under load). So between Sun and LSI, we have poor support for megaraid_sas. That hurts sun, so your pro-Sun attitude would be to go an try and get them to close on this LONG standing issue, not admonish people for needing the driver.

Oh yeah megaraid sas works on:
FreeBSD, Linux 2.4 with lots of patches, Linux 2.6, RHEL, FreeBSD, Windows 2000,XP,2003,Vista (64 and 32 bit), etc.

#5 If sun actually thinks people who couldn't install Solaris 10 and before will suddenly use Solaris 2008.05, you are on crack. Sorry. And sun POed the loyal base. I know no long time Solaris admins who are happy with this.

No answer or snarky comment about the improper implementation of the Sun 64 bit JDK/JRE, no way to blame me for that?

Oh, and I have an active support contract and have patched per support to try and fix the ZFS issues. No go.

You have to say to yourself, I buy Sun product, I am not the enemy. I pay Sun money, please, dont assail me, the customer, for simply trying to tell Sun how to stay on target.

Or go take on Linux head on, and pretend you'll usurp Ubuntu with Solaris 2008.05 and dash the hopes of CentOS with over 10,000,000 live systems going to the yum mirrors.

We'll see how that worked out, just like taking on Microsoft did.

Reply Score: 0

Arun Member since:
2005-07-07



Warning, seems I've been accosted by a Sun apologist... (Note, I've been using Solaris / SunOS since 4.1.4 (I have original media)).

#1 Thumper is the hardware.

#2 Don't tell me how to stress my boxes. Solaris doesnt fail the stress test with UFS, but it does with ZFS, so what the hell does that have to do with IOZONE? I know how to break file systems, thank you, I dont need you to tell me how.


Right. SunVTS should not crash the OS.


#5 If sun actually thinks people who couldn't install Solaris 10 and before will suddenly use Solaris 2008.05, you are on crack. Sorry. And sun POed the loyal base. I know no long time Solaris admins who are happy with this.


OpenSolaris 2008.05 is not currently meant to replace Solaris 10 in the enterprise.

Eventually when OpenSolaris code is stable enough it will be made Solaris whatever. May be you should reserve judgment until whatever release after Solaris 10 based on OpenSolaris is released.

Oh, and I have an active support contract and have patched per support to try and fix the ZFS issues. No go.


Are you having problems with ZFS on Solaris 10 or OpenSolaris2008.05?

What type of OpenSolaris Support contract do you have? What bugs have you filed for the issues? Can you point to the bugs that your have filed or have uncovered in OpenSolaris2008.05?

Reply Score: 2

jjgorsky Member since:
2008-06-05

OpenSolaris 2008.05 is not currently meant to replace Solaris 10 in the enterprise.


Then why is Sun wiping all its Solaris 10 SunRay servers internally and installing OpenSolaris?

Eventually when OpenSolaris code is stable enough it will be made Solaris whatever. May be you should reserve judgment until whatever release after Solaris 10 based on OpenSolaris is released.


It sure didn't sound like that at CommunityOne.

This may seem clear to you but Sun's marketing strategy is very unclear to me. Solaris, OpenSolaris (never mind stealing that brand name from the foundation), Nevada, Indiana, what? Tell us what the next release is and we can use it.

As it stands Solaris 10 is languishing and no one is fixing it. Instead they are working on Longhorn/DukeNukemForever/Daikatana/Solaris11.

Look at everyone else, they were smart. Microsoft released XP, then a service pack. Vista, then a service pack. Apple releases OS X, then a service pack. Sun, they release Solaris 10, which changes EVERYTHING, and then anemic patches here and there (routinely causing regressions, who QAs this stuff?) and instead of cleaning up the OS (which has some nice ideas) they are off playing with the new shiny thing. Real users are left to fend for themselves.

Or install Linux/Mac.

Reply Score: 1

Arun Member since:
2005-07-07


Then why is Sun wiping all its Solaris 10 SunRay servers internally and installing OpenSolaris?


Companies usually like to test stuff internally before release. I am sure Microsoft rolled out Vista and Apple deployed Leopard internally too.

They do that to get wider testing.


Eventually when OpenSolaris code is stable enough it will be made Solaris whatever. May be you should reserve judgment until whatever release after Solaris 10 based on OpenSolaris is released.


It sure didn't sound like that at CommunityOne.

This may seem clear to you but Sun's marketing strategy is very unclear to me. Solaris, OpenSolaris (never mind stealing that brand name from the foundation), Nevada, Indiana, what? Tell us what the next release is and we can use it. [/q]

Yes it is clear you don't get Sun marketing. Solaris 10 was being developed for years while Solaris 9 was in the market. Sun does that all the time. Nevada is being developed while Solaris 10 is the shipping release. Fixes get backported to the current release. Many Nevada features have been backported to Solaris 10 so have bug fixes.

Sun decided to open source Nevada and call it OpenSolaris. When Nevada/OpenSolaris is release ready it will get a Solaris name. Something like what redhat does with Fedora and SUSE with OpenSUSE.

People run RHEL in production which comes with support just like people run Solaris 10. Fedora gets the latest and greatest and is considered unstable.

As it stands Solaris 10 is languishing and no one is fixing it. Instead they are working on Longhorn/DukeNukemForever/Daikatana/Solaris11.


Really! Solaris 10 updates are constantly released. Solaris 10 Update 5 being the latest. Which means 5 updates have been released.

Can you provides a list of high priority of bugs that haven't been fixed?

Look at everyone else, they were smart. Microsoft released XP, then a service pack. Vista, then a service pack. Apple releases OS X, then a service pack. Sun, they release Solaris 10, which changes EVERYTHING, and then anemic patches here and there (routinely causing regressions, who QAs this stuff?) and instead of cleaning up the OS (which has some nice ideas) they are off playing with the new shiny thing. Real users are left to fend for themselves.


Solaris 10 has had 5 updates so far (service packs in Microsoft parlance). Mac OS X Leopard has had 3 till date and it wasn't released that long ago.


When Sun ships systems with OpenSolaris or some thing based on it then and only then is it considered release ready.

Right now Sun boxes ship with Solaris 10.

Edited 2008-06-05 19:47 UTC

Reply Score: 2

jjgorsky Member since:
2008-06-05

Yes it is clear you don't get Sun marketing. Solaris 10 was being developed for years while Solaris 9 was in the market. Sun does that all the time. Nevada is being developed while Solaris 10 is the shipping release. Fixes get backported to the current release. Many Nevada features have been backported to Solaris 10 so have bug fixes.


I'll accept that's my failure. I don't care. Sun needs to win me over. They can't prescribe homework and expect me to say oh clearly Linux sucks. Why should I bother trying to figure out what the brand name is that I want?

This is not a new problem with confusing branding/versioning by Sun. Java. JavaScript. Java Desktop System?! Java 1.0...1.1...2...6...7?!

Normal software has stable/unstable/development. You would think Ian Murdoch would have remembered that from Debian.

"As it stands Solaris 10 is languishing and no one is fixing it. Instead they are working on Longhorn/DukeNukemForever/Daikatana/Solaris11.


Really! Solaris 10 updates are constantly released. Solaris 10 Update 5 being the latest. Which means 5 updates have been released.

Solaris 10 has had 5 updates so far (service packs in Microsoft parlance). Mac OS X Leopard has had 3 till date and it wasn't released that long ago.
"

Wait, so are updates good or bad? They are good when Solaris has them and bad when Apple has them. Normal Sun logic.

How about this. XP, MS managed to fit most of a userland on top of NT. OS X, Apple built an entire f'in OS But Solaris after 5 service packs can't have a nice GUI network configurator.

OpenSolaris will have one years from now, but not a normal one. It will sneak around behind your back and do magic. Guess if you are a normal Unix admin and don't need some overthought abstracted Sun invention but just want to be able to select what interface to use or whatever, you are out of luck.

What about design stuff? Let's see, stupid example, Apple fit a whole new scheduler into 10.1. Solaris still has CPU affinity problems.

Broken by design stuff, like RBAC. Why can't you say "everyone in this group has this profile"? Why can't you specify which profile you want to pfexec a command with, if 2 profiles want to use a same command with disjoint privileges? FAIL. This stuff could have been fixed in the first update, but now the opportunity is gone and we are stuck with legacy.

Hey how come you can't mount a SMB/CIFS share on Solaris?

Right now Sun boxes ship with Solaris 10.


So then why do you and Sun laugh when people have problems with Solaris 10?

Reply Score: 1

Arun Member since:
2005-07-07


Why should I bother trying to figure out what the brand name is that I want?


Huh?

This is not a new problem with confusing branding/versioning by Sun. Java. JavaScript. Java Desktop System?! Java 1.0...1.1...2...6...7?!


Sun didn't develop Javascript. Netscape did. Shows how much your really know.


Wait, so are updates good or bad? They are good when Solaris has them and bad when Apple has them. Normal Sun logic.


WTF are you on about? You said Sun isn't updating Solaris 10. I pointed out they are just like everyone else you mentioned in your post. Grow up!

How about this. XP, MS managed to fit most of a userland on top of NT. OS X, Apple built an entire f'in OS But Solaris after 5 service packs can't have a nice GUI network configurator.


How about this? Solaris 10 is not meant for home users it is for enterprises. OpenSolaris configures wireless devices quite nicely.

OpenSolaris will have one years from now, but not a normal one. It will sneak around behind your back and do magic. Guess if you are a normal Unix admin and don't need some overthought abstracted Sun invention but just want to be able to select what interface to use or whatever, you are out of luck.


Eh! OpenSolaris 2008.05 is Sun's first ever release. You act as if Sun molested you in your childhood.

Most people seem to have no problem with network settings on OpenSolaris.

What about design stuff? Let's see, stupid example, Apple fit a whole new scheduler into 10.1. Solaris still has CPU affinity problems.


What? Care to provide and example. Solaris has had a far suprerior scheduler to linux or any OS for ages. Ever since the linux guys were dreaming about O(1) scheduling Solaris has had one. Solaris also has modular scheduling classes from interactive to real time.

Broken by design stuff, like RBAC. Why can't you say "everyone in this group has this profile"? Why can't you specify which profile you want to pfexec a command with, if 2 profiles want to use a same command with disjoint privileges? FAIL. This stuff could have been fixed in the first update, but now the opportunity is gone and we are stuck with legacy.


Your inablity to comprehend and use a particular technology doesn't constitute poor design.

Hey how come you can't mount a SMB/CIFS share on Solaris?


Yes you can. Samba has been included with Solaris since Solaris 9.

Right now Sun boxes ship with Solaris 10.


So then why do you and Sun laugh when people have problems with Solaris 10? [/q]

Nobody is laughing. Its all in your head, pal.

Reply Score: 2

Robert Escue Member since:
2005-07-08

Explain to me how you are going to install OpenSolaris on a Sun Ray? Have you ever used a Sun Ray? I have one sitting on my desk and I can tell you that Sun would have to make Sun Ray Server software available as part of the OpenSolaris build in order to use Sun Ray devices.

When it comes to Solaris 10, as one the 30 external Beta Testers for what was called Software Express in 2003, I wrote an article for OSNews on its development:

http://osnews.com/story/5485/Review_of_Solaris_Express

My review of the "finished product" 3/05 Release:

http://osnews.com/story/9865/Review_of_Solaris_10

The development of Solaris 10 was going along at the same time Sun was making enhancements to Solaris 9, up until the final release of Solaris 9, I believe 9/05. Each release of Solaris not only patches issues from the previous release but adds new functionality as well.

I also Beta Test every release of Solaris 10, and I can see first hand the effort Sun puts into each Release. To say that Sun is letting Solaris 10 "languish" is simply wrong.

As someone who has over 50 servers running various Releases of Solaris, my problem is deciding which Release to standardize on based on fuctionality.

Reply Score: 2

mickrussom Member since:
2006-05-13

From the developer I know at Sun, sounds to me like you are not accurately representing the situation with back porting to Solaris 10. I know that internally Solaris 10 is being shafted where possible, and the general attitude is "fix it in Nevada" and big customers or severe bugs generally cause a back port of fixes, but I don't think at this point its a matter of course.

As a guy who is using many many Solaris 10 u3, u4 and u5 units, I do get very worried that things are slipping when it comes to Solaris 10, and I've been backing out more and more patches that I need more often.

The experience I have had with Solaris 10 is a far cray from what I grew accustomed to in Solaris 9 and before, so I do feel there is a bit of product mismanagement.

Reply Score: 1

jjgorsky Member since:
2008-06-05

Explain to me how you are going to install OpenSolaris on a Sun Ray? Have you ever used a Sun Ray?


I've used various models ranging from the weird oblong bricky-shaped ones that required their own LAN(?!) to the modern sleek ones with USB ports and LCD screens. I've also used WYSE and other RDP thin clients, VT and 3270 terminals, PXE/NFS net stations, ...

I wouldn't think a Sun advocate would be so surprised that someone might have actually encountered one of their products in the real world.

I have one sitting on my desk and I can tell you that Sun would have to make Sun Ray Server software available as part of the OpenSolaris build in order to use Sun Ray devices.


I guess Sun has the Sun Ray packages and can install them on their own systems if they feel like it. I don't know the details; it's only the rumor I've heard but if true it's telling.

Regarding internal beta testing / dog food, that may well be, but the point remains that users in the real world will be left further in the cold as no one at Sun will have experience with the problems of Solaris 10 in the real world. All they will see is OpenSolaris without even some lawyer or accountant to run into real life problems. OpenSolaris may be great but customers are not going to run it because as you pointed out so well it's not supported.

I also Beta Test every release of Solaris 10, and I can see first hand the effort Sun puts into each Release. To say that Sun is letting Solaris 10 "languish" is simply wrong.


Solaris 10 made a lot of sweeping changes from Solaris 9. A lot of these were good ideas but real world experiences were not incorporated into rapid design improvements and now can't be due to compatibility. Furthermore Solaris 10 was a half job. A lot of stuff was left undone and everything has been put on hold for years now while OpenSolaris gets hacked on. Solaris 11 may be great but it won't matter if all the users have migrated away in the meantime, especially if Solaris 11 breaks Solaris 8/9/10 compatibility.

As someone who has over 50 servers running various Releases of Solaris, my problem is deciding which Release to standardize on based on fuctionality.


Now why is that. I can roll out the latest OpenSUSE across my userbase and they gain a functionality superset. I've also done Fedora, CentOS, Gentoo upgrades, same thing. Sun is always touting ABI/API compatibility of Solaris over other Unix/Unix-like OSes. Solaris even has containers! Why don't you just have the latest update of Solaris 10 everywhere?

Reply Score: 1

mickrussom Member since:
2006-05-13

Ok, if you were at JavaOne, you wouldn't know that Sun didn't want people to use 2008.05. They declared this thing supported and ready to go. The insinuation was production-able.

"Are you having problems with ZFS on Solaris 10 or OpenSolaris2008.05? "

The problems with ZFS are on Solaris 10 u4, Solaris 10 u5, and Solaris 10 u5 + relevant patches.

The SunVTS should always be used in consort with directed tests as overall system load is more realistic than just bashing the file system.

"OpenSolaris 2008.05 is not currently meant to replace Solaris 10 in the enterprise. "

Lets not talk about it then. Its beta being masqueraded as something else. For the record, the previous Sun SXDE 1/08 was way, way better than 2008.05.

"What type of OpenSolaris Support contract do you have?"

I more or less have God level access to sun. I know several engineers there and I have the software support contract. My engineer-friends are having a bear of a time filing stuff with bugster outside of their "area", and when bugs that I find are filed, the responsible engineers often ask for more info or don't have access to test beds that would let them recreate the issues.

A recent patch to sshd (126134-03) blatantly broke X-forwarding. I've been trying like hell to get it withdrawn. Sun is very, very hard to manipulate for the better.

Again, Im a "sun lover," but Ill never be an apologist.

Reply Score: 1

Arun Member since:
2005-07-07

Ok, if you were at JavaOne, you wouldn't know that Sun didn't want people to use 2008.05. They declared this thing supported and ready to go. The insinuation was production-able.


I wasn't.

"Are you having problems with ZFS on Solaris 10 or OpenSolaris2008.05? "

The problems with ZFS are on Solaris 10 u4, Solaris 10 u5, and Solaris 10 u5 + relevant patches.


Then why are you specifically complaining about OpenSolaris2008.05.


"OpenSolaris 2008.05 is not currently meant to replace Solaris 10 in the enterprise. "

Lets not talk about it then. Its beta being masqueraded as something else. For the record, the previous Sun SXDE 1/08 was way, way better than 2008.05.


Sure. Stuff goes into builds that cause regressions. It happens to any OS undergoing active development.

http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/index.jsp

The page makes it abundantly clear that Solaris 10 is for Solaris administrators/ enterprise developers.
OpenSolaris is for Students/Web2.0 and OpenSource developers.

"What type of OpenSolaris Support contract do you have?"

I more or less have God level access to sun. I know several engineers there and I have the software support contract. My engineer-friends are having a bear of a time filing stuff with bugster outside of their "area", and when bugs that I find are filed, the responsible engineers often ask for more info or don't have access to test beds that would let them recreate the issues.


Some bugs are hard to reproduce. If they were easy to do so internally they would be fixed.

What bugs are you having in particular? Some details would be nice.

I find it hard to believe that just running SunVTS on a thumper causes issues on all those releases and it isn't a top priority bug.

What was the bug id of the bug you filed?


Again, Im a "sun lover," but Ill never be an apologist.


You don't have be an apologist but simply ranting on OSNews doesn't give anyone the impression that you are a Sun lover.

Edited 2008-06-05 20:38 UTC

Reply Score: 2

jjgorsky Member since:
2008-06-05

"The problems with ZFS are on Solaris 10 u4, Solaris 10 u5, and Solaris 10 u5 + relevant patches.


Then why are you specifically complaining about OpenSolaris2008.05.


"OpenSolaris 2008.05 is not currently meant to replace Solaris 10 in the enterprise. "

Lets not talk about it then. Its beta being masqueraded as something else. For the record, the previous Sun SXDE 1/08 was way, way better than 2008.05.


Sure. Stuff goes into builds that cause regressions. It happens to any OS undergoing active development.

http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/index.jsp

The page makes it abundantly clear that Solaris 10 is for Solaris administrators/ enterprise developers.
"

Wow, so which is it? Can't complain about Solaris 10, it's too old and stable. Can't complain about OpenSolaris, it's too new and unstable.


Again, Im a "sun lover," but Ill never be an apologist.


You don't have be an apologist but simply ranting on OSNews doesn't give anyone the impression that you are a Sun lover. [/q]

Clearly he is a wrecker and a counter-revolutionary.

Reply Score: 1

Arun Member since:
2005-07-07



Wow, so which is it? Can't complain about Solaris 10, it's too old and stable. Can't complain about OpenSolaris, it's too new and unstable.


The problem is all your ranting is so muddled it is hard to make heads or tails of what your complaint really is.


I have asked you umpteem number of times to post the bugids you have filed with your buddies at Sun using your "God" Level support contract and you haven't posted them.

I am going to have to assume all you want to do is troll and not discuss anything constructive.

Reply Score: 2

mickrussom Member since:
2006-05-13

Oh, and I'd also like to point out that while X ran on Solaris 10 u5 on the same hardware, I had to write a customer /etc/X11/xorg.conf file for Solaris 2008.05, it would screw up and killing X would result in an extremely persistent restarting of X which lead to the need to kill it over and over again and over again.

I finally fixed the xorg.conf, switch to the vesa driver, and all was fixed.

Worked in Solaris 10u3,4,5 though.

Seems whatever regressions are done on Solaris 10uX are not done for Opensolaris.

Reply Score: 1

Robert Escue Member since:
2005-07-08

Aren't we a little testy! I'm not trying to tell you how to do anything, I am just providing an option so back off! I have never used SunVTS to stress a disk system.

I have read about people having problems with SATA systems and ZFS, including Thumpers. Does the system fail only during the VTS testing, this is why I mentioned using iozone is so that you can simulate reads and writes that scale upward and see at what point it fails.

And no you don't have to convince me, I read lots of "it doesn't have what I want" threads without specifying what it is that's missing. So what is missing, is it really all that hard to mention a couple of examples?

My bad on the AMI MegaRaid SAS controller, Sun should already have a driver for it because it is listed as part of the equipment installed in the SunFire X4440 as referenced by Ben Rockwood of CuddleTech:

http://cuddletech.com/blog/

The driver should be part of Solaris 10 Update 4 or higher.

Reply Score: 2

mickrussom Member since:
2006-05-13

"The driver should be part of Solaris 10 Update 4 or higher."

Its not.

Reply Score: 1

Arun Member since:
2005-07-07

"The driver should be part of Solaris 10 Update 4 or higher."

Its not.


You use the driver from LSI.

http://www.lsi.com/storage_home/products_home/internal_raid/megarai...
http://wikis.sun.com/display/BigAdmin/Solaris+10+ITU+Install+and+LS...

Reply Score: 2

mickrussom Member since:
2006-05-13

I've done this before and done my tests. The megaraid_sas driver did not survive testing, and later on the test system had issues with updates later provided by Sun. Too bad Sun, with all of its glorious technology partnerships and previously included LSI drivers, cant be bothered to simply add a driver for ubiquitous hardware.

What I like the most about Opensolaris's big mistake is this Ian Murdoch character. Sun hired him to be a hero, to turn things around. I reality, he was a lucky guy, and him and his wife, Deborah (get it Deb-Ian), some lucky bloke who got the right people around him to assemble an enduring Linux system.

What Sun isn't getting its the "right place, right time and right people" factor. Ian by himself, judging on what is going on at sun, is a deeply flawed individual leading Sun down the road to perdition.

I think Sun has a good chance of hearing the main users of Solaris' complaints, and despite the best efforts of the jingoist yes men, maybe the better minds will dig their heels in and say, enough is enough!

Reply Score: 1

mickrussom Member since:
2006-05-13

# uname -a
SunOS solten 5.10 Generic_127128-11 i86pc i386 i86pc

# cat /etc/release
Solaris 10 5/08 s10x_u5wos_10 X86
Copyright 2008 Sun Microsystems, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Use is subject to license terms.
Assembled 24 March 2008

# find /kernel | ggrep -ie mfi -ie sas -ie mpt -ie lsi -ie aac
/kernel/drv/amd64/mpt
/kernel/drv/amd64/aac
/kernel/drv/amd64/lsimega
/kernel/drv/mpt
/kernel/drv/mpt.conf
/kernel/drv/aac
/kernel/drv/aac.conf
/kernel/drv/lsimega
/kernel/drv/lsimega.conf
/kernel/kmdb/amd64/mpt
/kernel/kmdb/mpt

No, mpt and lsimega do not work with the controllers in question.

Reply Score: 1

Arun Member since:
2005-07-07


No, mpt and lsimega do not work with the controllers in question.


So?

Reply Score: 2

mickrussom Member since:
2006-05-13

Review the thread. I don't see megaraid_sas or mfi in there.

That driver, supported in literally every other OS out there (Open,Free,NetBSD,Linux 2.4,Linux 2.6,Windows-Everything-32-and-64bit,etc) is needed by a huge number of machines.

Reply Score: 1

Arun Member since:
2005-07-07

Review the thread. I don't see megaraid_sas or mfi in there.

That driver, supported in literally every other OS out there (Open,Free,NetBSD,Linux 2.4,Linux 2.6,Windows-Everything-32-and-64bit,etc) is needed by a huge number of machines.


Lsi has a driver for Solaris.

Reply Score: 2

mickrussom Member since:
2006-05-13

megaraid_sas, mfi or both should be in there, and as you can see from Ben's page, its not even in 2008.05, never mind u4 or u5. I don't think well see it in u6 either.

Please note that Sun is supposedly partnered with LSI (as you can clearly see the long past with lsimega and mpt), as well as Dell whose PERC subsystems are largely now megaraid_sas, as well as Intel. (Ive seen support from Sun on Intel Starlake platforms be a little on the spotty side.)

Sun is giving the OS away, so the more potential places the OS runs, the more revenue opportunities they have. Its that's simple.

These people who buck and kick and apologize for this should be fired immediately, its this deep ineffective bureaucracy that is marginalizing Sun.

Reply Score: 1

jjgorsky Member since:
2008-06-05

And why should Sun write a driver for an AMI device? If AMI wants to support Solaris, then maybe AMI needs to talk to Sun about driver support for their hardware. It simply isn't Sun's problem.


This is pretty pathetic.

Linux and the BSDs can come up with quality clean-room drivers for all sorts of hardware, with no support from hardware vendors and often active opposition. They're built into the OS and supported on a first-class basis as the OS is developed.

How come Sun, who always makes fun of the development quality of these kids in their basement, can't match it with their engineers, even when they have special contracts with hardware vendors?

Example: Marvell. They make a shit product but their chips are used on everything. Sun and Marvell have had special contractual relationships for years, but for ages Marvell networking cards (even wired!) never worked on Solaris without ndiswrapper and even when they were shoehorned in, the connection would drop and hang to the point where you couldn't even unplumb the interface and try to reload the driver.

There are many others.

No one's impressed by Sun's mudslinging and name-calling any more. Linux and the BSDs have long since passed Solaris in stability, driver support, performance, etc. Sun has all these awesome engineers and all this money and all these contracts, or that's what they tell us when pooping on Linux, but they can't even support a network card or a RAID controller.

Reply Score: 1

Arun Member since:
2005-07-07

"And why should Sun write a driver for an AMI device? If AMI wants to support Solaris, then maybe AMI needs to talk to Sun about driver support for their hardware. It simply isn't Sun's problem.


This is pretty pathetic.
"

What is pathetic is you joined OSnews today just to troll. Could you be segdenum in disguise?

Edited 2008-06-06 08:15 UTC

Reply Score: 1

mickrussom Member since:
2006-05-13

Ad hominem.

If he is such a troll, what is it that he said that was false/untrue.

Nothing.

Reply Score: 1

jjgorsky Member since:
2008-06-05

"[q]And why should Sun write a driver for an AMI device? If AMI wants to support Solaris, then maybe AMI needs to talk to Sun about driver support for their hardware. It simply isn't Sun's problem.


This is pretty pathetic.
"

What is pathetic is you joined OSnews today just to troll. Could you be segdenum in disguise? [/q]

Cute, ad hominem.

An article interests me enough to deal with yet another double-opt-in so I can comment and I get attacked for it?

I saw OpenSolaris at JavaOne, it looked shiny. I would like to see it succeed. But putting blinders on won't help. How come the response from Sun and Sun users whenever anyone says "I like it but I had this problem" is "you suck Linux sucks you're a troll we are smarter than you and everyone".

I am a long time Solaris user and administrator. I don't use it as my daily desktop, of course, because that's insanity. But I always have a server handy and I've recommended it to numerous clients before for NFS/application servers, because I knew about API/ABI stability from release to release. Clearly that advantage is going by the wayside.

For the record I've never posted on this site under any account before. But what do you care if I'm segdenum, Osama bin Laden, or James effin' Bond?

Reply Score: 1

Arun Member since:
2005-07-07


Cute, ad hominem.

An article interests me enough to deal with yet another double-opt-in so I can comment and I get attacked for it?

I saw OpenSolaris at JavaOne, it looked shiny. I would like to see it succeed. But putting blinders on won't help. How come the response from Sun and Sun users whenever anyone says "I like it but I had this problem" is "you suck Linux sucks you're a troll we are smarter than you and everyone".


The way you say something matters. Your way is counterproductive. Which clearly shows your intention is to bash the product and the company. If you really wanted it to succeed you would provide productive feed back to the OpenSolaris community instead of ranting on an OSNews thread.

I am a long time Solaris user and administrator. I don't use it as my daily desktop, of course, because that's insanity. But I always have a server handy and I've recommended it to numerous clients before for NFS/application servers, because I knew about API/ABI stability from release to release. Clearly that advantage is going by the wayside.


What ABI/API breakage have you encountered? Give specifics.

For the record I've never posted on this site under any account before. But what do you care if I'm segdenum, Osama bin Laden, or James effin' Bond?


Segdenum is a well known Anti-Sun troll here. It makes a huge difference if you are just him/her masquerading under a different name.

Reply Score: 2

jjgorsky Member since:
2008-06-05

The reason why the OpenSolaris installer took away options is because inexperienced users were complaining to Sun about the installation being too difficult and having to make too many decisions.


Good plan there, piss off the experienced users, with legacy servers/apps, who are the only market you will ever have EVER.

Hey, remember when Carly was running HP into the ground, and they decided they were going to piss off the engineers who would only use HP calculators, and they took out the equation library and moved all the keys around to appeal to high school students? They sure have that high school calculator market sown up now, you never even see a TI anymore.

Reply Score: 1

Too bad
by colonel crayon on Thu 5th Jun 2008 19:10 UTC
colonel crayon
Member since:
2008-03-23

OpenSolaris might be the new incarnation of Sun Express Developer Edition, but they seem to have removed everything developer-oriented. When a tiny SLAX live CD contains a functional GCC, why can't OpenSolaris?

"But," you say, "it's easy to download the GCC package." True enough, except that I need ndiswrapper to use my wireless card to download GCC, and I can't install ndiswrapper without GCC! SLAX includes ndiswrapper too, why can't OpenSolaris? In the meantime, Sun's Ruby Developer site still says the following:

> Get NetBeans. Get GlassFish. Get Cool Stack. Or get them all with Solaris Express, Developer Edition.

It's a good thing that I'm getting my eyes checked today, because I sure couldn't see any of that in OpenSolaris...

Before you assume that I'm another Linux fanboy coming to whine here, I'm not. I use NetBSD as my primary OS, and I don't like Ubuntu. But this was a sad experience.

Edited 2008-06-05 19:12 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE: Too bad
by Arun on Thu 5th Jun 2008 20:02 UTC in reply to "Too bad"
Arun Member since:
2005-07-07


"But," you say, "it's easy to download the GCC package." True enough, except that I need ndiswrapper to use my wireless card to download GCC, and I can't install ndiswrapper without GCC! SLAX includes ndiswrapper too, why can't OpenSolaris? In the meantime, Sun's Ruby Developer site still says the following:


You can easily use the ethernet port and download what you need or burn a CD with what you need.

I have had to do that many times when Linux was still growing. I have had to do that on windows too.

> Get NetBeans. Get GlassFish. Get Cool Stack. Or get them all with Solaris Express, Developer Edition.


Solaris Express developer edition ships on a DVD.

It's a good thing that I'm getting my eyes checked today, because I sure couldn't see any of that in OpenSolaris...


That's because the usage model is you run pkg and suck it from a repository.

http://pkg.opensolaris.org/status

This is what the OpenSolaris 2008.05 download site claims:
"The OpenSolaris 2008.05 Live CD makes it simple to boot to a fully functional desktop environment, including Firefox and Thunderbird, without the need to install onto your system. After familiarizing yourself with the OpenSolaris environment, you can then choose to install it onto your disk. Once installed, you can connect to the OpenSolaris Package Repository to install additional software at OpenOffice.org"

No where does it claim that it will include everything Sun makes in one CD.

Before you assume that I'm another Linux fanboy coming to whine here, I'm not. I use NetBSD as my primary OS, and I don't like Ubuntu. But this was a sad experience.


Why? Because you didn't understand the concept? None of the things you bring up are actual problems.

You claim to use NetBSD but are comparing OpenSolaris to SLAX???!!!

If you want all those developer tools but don't want to download it all after you install OpenSolaris you can download the Solaris Developer Express DVD.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Too bad
by colonel crayon on Thu 5th Jun 2008 21:13 UTC in reply to "RE: Too bad"
colonel crayon Member since:
2008-03-23

My point with the SLAX example was that a very small OS contains many valuable tools that aren't in the much larger OpenSolaris. I have to question Sun's decision to include Compiz but not GCC. I guess it's an issue of priorities.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Too bad
by Arun on Thu 5th Jun 2008 22:06 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Too bad"
Arun Member since:
2005-07-07

My point with the SLAX example was that a very small OS contains many valuable tools that aren't in the much larger OpenSolaris. I have to question Sun's decision to include Compiz but not GCC. I guess it's an issue of priorities.


Yes. I think Sun is trying to prioritize getting new people who might be familiar with linux to try cool things linux doesn't offer.

There is no reason you shouldn't send feedback to the OpenSolaris community about including GCC in the live CD image.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Too bad
by mickrussom on Fri 6th Jun 2008 07:30 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Too bad"
mickrussom Member since:
2006-05-13

Just put the stupid thing on a DVD like everyone else.

Reply Score: 1

wow, you guys are pretty harsh
by vsync on Fri 6th Jun 2008 08:49 UTC
vsync
Member since:
2008-06-05

Wow, you guys are pretty harsh. The article is interesting, thanks, and I look forward to future OpenSolaris releases -- looks like Sun is really starting to innovate again -- but some of these comments verge on insanity.

I've seen better handling of criticism by RMS, JWZ, Theo de Raadt, and Hans Reiser on their worst days. Why not fix the bugs, or WONTFIX them, instead of ranting on message boards?

Reply Score: 1

RE: wow, you guys are pretty harsh
by Arun on Fri 6th Jun 2008 08:56 UTC in reply to "wow, you guys are pretty harsh"
Arun Member since:
2005-07-07


I've seen better handling of criticism by RMS, JWZ, Theo de Raadt, and Hans Reiser on their worst days. Why not fix the bugs, or WONTFIX them, instead of ranting on message boards?


Because so far there haven't been any real bugs with specifics discussed. :-) I am sure none of them had to put up with people that came there just to bash something with no technical detail.

Edited 2008-06-06 08:57 UTC

Reply Score: 2

mickrussom Member since:
2006-05-13

Funny, I remember using mdb quite a bit. Is that technical? You want 8GB dump files or something? Stack traces?

Reply Score: 1

Arun Member since:
2005-07-07

Funny, I remember using mdb quite a bit. Is that technical? You want 8GB dump files or something? Stack traces?


Bugids.

Reply Score: 2

mickrussom Member since:
2006-05-13

BugIDs: 6689906 6642929

Reply Score: 1

mickrussom Member since:
2006-05-13

Harsh? Harsh?

Look, Solaris 11, Nevada, Indiana, or whatever nom-du-jour they come up will probably never get into Sun's biggest account: The US Government.

So this abandon Solaris 10 attitude could basically finish Sun off for good, why? Redhat Enterprise Linux is now Common Criteria/EAL4+ certified.

So while Sun is busy tearing Solaris to pieces to "make it better," its pissing off pretty much every old-school and the biggest customers all at once.

http://www.redhat.com/solutions/government/commoncriteria/

Reply Score: 1

Arun Member since:
2005-07-07

Harsh? Harsh?

Look, Solaris 11, Nevada, Indiana, or whatever nom-du-jour they come up will probably never get into Sun's biggest account: The US Government.

So this abandon Solaris 10 attitude could basically finish Sun off for good, why? Redhat Enterprise Linux is now Common Criteria/EAL4+ certified.

So while Sun is busy tearing Solaris to pieces to "make it better," its pissing off pretty much every old-school and the biggest customers all at once.

http://www.redhat.com/solutions/government/commoncriteria/


Where did you get this idea? Why do you think OpenSolaris or whatever it will be called won't meet the US Government's vendor selection criteria?

Is there a reason why OpenSolaris won't be EAL4+ certified?

Edited 2008-06-06 10:09 UTC

Reply Score: 2

mickrussom Member since:
2006-05-13

Oh, but its ready now! You can get support contracts for it! I was at Java One, go hither and get OpenSolaris 2008.05, its ready for production!

We'll see when common criteria finishes. We'll see if the US-GOV takes the "new stuff" as a replacement for existing Trusted installs.

Time is ticking. From the start 2008.05 has, it wont make it in time.

Edited 2008-06-06 10:26 UTC

Reply Score: 1

Arun Member since:
2005-07-07

Oh, but its ready now! You can get support contracts for it! I was at Java One, go hither and get OpenSolaris 2008.05, its ready for production!

We'll see when common criteria finishes. We'll see if the US-GOV takes the "new stuff" as a replacement for existing Trusted installs.

Time is ticking. From the start 2008.05 has, it wont make it in time.


Oh Grow up already! Seriously this is getting tiring. Yeah we will see.

You claimed it as if it was a foregone conclusion.

You seriously are acting as if OpenSolaris 2008.05 killed your pet gold fish. Geez!

Edited 2008-06-06 10:35 UTC

Reply Score: 2

mickrussom Member since:
2006-05-13

Again, you act as this is meant to attack sun, its meant to help. I was at Java One. Most of my friends have worked there in the past. I live about 5 miles from the main campus. I have years worth of old sun gear ... and you just cant understand that friends tell friends the things they need to hear, not what they want to hear.

OpenSolaris 2008.05 is the worst "shipped" product I've seen to date. That maybe and the broken cache on the on the UltraSparc II:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/03/07/sun_suffers_ultrasparc_ii_c...

Bright idea to release a processor with parity on SRAM/cache and not ECC:

The solution? Double the amount of memory so half of it can be used to "check" the other half.

Reply Score: 1

Arun Member since:
2005-07-07

Again, you act as this is meant to attack sun, its meant to help. I was at Java One. Most of my friends have worked there in the past. I live about 5 miles from the main campus. I have years worth of old sun gear ... and you just cant understand that friends tell friends the things they need to hear, not what they want to hear.


You follow that by this:

OpenSolaris 2008.05 is the worst "shipped" product I've seen to date. That maybe and the broken cache on the on the UltraSparc II:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/03/07/sun_suffers_ultrasparc_ii_c...

Bright idea to release a processor with parity on SRAM/cache and not ECC:

The solution? Double the amount of memory so half of it can be used to "check" the other half.


WTF? Seriously Every cpu manufacturer has had bugs. How about intel releasing the pentium with the F00F bug.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentium_F00F_bug

Double the amount of memory? One of the solutions was a mirrored cache ( not all of main memory). The other solution was a software cache-scrubber.

Reply Score: 2

mickrussom Member since:
2006-05-13

Ok, Intel and F00F. How much money does Sun make on CPUs? How much does Intel? Sun doesn't have its own fab anymore and is largely migrating off of SPARC after years of SPARC evangelism. I remember trying to convince people at Sun to look at the Opteron before Bechtolsheim returned. I was mocked, told how great the v65 was, and how Sunray was the future. Now by the time Sun gets around to being "competitive" with AMD64, Intel's back on top with the Core2 (not as scalable, but they certainly are selling a lot of those).

Also note, the cache mistake Sun made hurt Sun a lot more than F00F. I happen to know the deal which was lost due to that fiasco. Things would be different now had that not happened.

Again, if you haven't noticed, there is little you can bring up about Sun I don't already know more about, and would, at the end of the day, I would like to see SUN do very well. The direction things were taking with Jonathan Schwartz looked good for a while, but now its not so good. Sun announced partnerships with Dell and Intel and I can come up with a number of machines were Solaris 10 or 2008.05 don't run properly due to Sun's inability to learn from what others have done in the open. (e.g. mfi)

And yes, the cache size was doubled in order to create a mirror. That's an expensive and foolish way to solve the problem.

Now we could talk about the merits of crossbars, firebus or even hypertransport vs. the Xeon FSB/MCH, but seriously, INTC vs SUNW (oops now JAVA).

Whatever was working before is now being broken.

You know how many DEs left Sun to start SUPER successful companies with a larger market cap than sun today? You know why? People like you who defend brokenness to the end instead of filing a damn bug and fixing stuff.

Edited 2008-06-06 11:05 UTC

Reply Score: 1

mickrussom Member since:
2006-05-13

You guys are very nice to Uncle Sam:

Sun Cancels GSA Contract After Price Abuse Probe

Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, September 15, 2007

Sun Microsystems, one of the government's top technology vendors, canceled its contract with the General Services Administration after months of questions from investigators and lawmakers over allegations it had overcharged taxpayers in recent years....

Maybe you wont need common criteria after all.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/14/AR2...

Reply Score: 1

Robert Escue Member since:
2005-07-08

Do you have any idea of what you are talking about when it comes to Common Criteria evaluations? It is unlikey that OpenSolaris would ever be evaluated under Common Criteria in much the same way that Fedora or OpenSuSe has not been evaluated. Sun, RedHat and Novell aren't willing to spend $500,000.00+ to have an evaluation conducted on what is not intended for DoD consumption.

The release cycle would have to be significantly slowed down to support CC evaluations of OpenSolaris. That is why Sun is developing Solaris 11 along with Solaris Express and OpenSolaris, there is no point in evaluating OpenSolaris.

Solaris 10 11/06 has been evaluated at EAL4+:

http://www.commoncriteriaportal.org/products_OS.html#OS

And it really doesn't make any difference whether RHEL is EAL4+ or not, one thing I am still waiting for is RedHat to show administrators how to use auditing based on DISA requirements. While they point out that auditing exists, there certainly isn't a clear set of instructions on how to either (1) use it or (2) a guide that compares and contrasts to BSM auditing for Solaris. All you hear from RedHat is SELinux, which I think is nothing more than snake oil. Remember Windows NT was also evaluated as TCSEC C2 (EAL4 equivalent).

Reply Score: 2

mickrussom Member since:
2006-05-13

Well, if Sun keeps trying to cheat the government, the common criteria may not matter.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/14/AR2...

I have completed common criteria for a product. It is, for the most part, not very meaningful or rigorous, and hiring the right common criteria team and documentation is key to getting the certification rather than development.

If Opensolaris 2008.05 isn't meant to ever become certifiable, then I really wonder what in the world Sun is up to with this thing. It certainly doesn't feel like a "Solaris 11" - that's for sure.

Reply Score: 1

Robert Escue Member since:
2005-07-08

There are two sides to every story, and as a Contractor who works on a DoD contract, doing anything through GSA is a pain in the a$$. I know this from almost 30 years of first hand experience, not an article in the Washington Post.

Do yourself a favor and stop trolling, because it is evident you do not have a clue.

Reply Score: 2

mickrussom Member since:
2006-05-13

I've worked with contractors like you. Expensive and prone to overstating the whole thing like winning contracts isn't more about which ex-General and which relationships you have vs. some deep technical requirements.

You simply come across as pompous and all knowing. The easy thing for you to say is simply "look, I know a lot, look at my posts, I work in this field.

Now you are Al-Sahafing the Washington post? "That's not true, Sun's relationship with the government is on a bed of roses!"

So now anyone who challenges you in any way is labeled a troll. How convenient. Reminds me of a certain government that calls anyone whose rights they want to violate a terrorist.

Reply Score: 0

mickrussom Member since:
2006-05-13

Again, if I'm so clueless and you are so all knowing, I have a few issues stated in this thread. Care to solve them? I'm all ears.

Reply Score: 0

Robert Escue
Member since:
2005-07-08

If you want to know why people don't take your site seriously and want to write serious articles for it, you need to look no farther than the comments to this article. The range of comments have went from the serious to the ridiculous. In my opinion mickrussom should have been "kicked to the curb" a long time ago. A person who posts for three hours essentially talking to himself does nothing more than ruin the commentary for everyone else. Nobody that comes to this site should have to routinely separate the wheat from the chaff!

And while I am a few short months from becoming an "empty nester", I am not inclined to spend free time conducting research and writing what I feel are serious articles only to have something like this happen.

If you want to salvage what is left of your readers, you are going to have to do something in order to dissuade this kind of behavior.

Reply Score: 2

mickrussom Member since:
2006-05-13

I knew this was coming. Get shown up and now you cry to the editors. I've saved everything here, Escue, and it will be reposted elsewhere if its taken down. This not only proves you are a whiner, and cant have a technical debate, but look how you, mister Navy Sir Yes Sir, got an kowtow to the Gestapo Hayden and the TIA and the Government and ask the SUPERIORS to REMOVE THE THREAT.

You cant handle your own, you wan the GOVERNMENT to step in and fix it up for you. I have a 4 inch safety pin and a large diaper for you, what a baby.

Un real. Serisouly. Dont help. Dont prove anything wrong, dont have an intelligent argument. Be pompous, then when you get flak, call in the air strikes.

Were you in the navy when they blew that airliner out of the sky? Or was that before your time? Probably before, because you don't have a lot of accrued skills from what I can see.

I am Aslan, being put on the tablet for sacrifice, but the table will crack and the deep truth from before the beginning of time will COME OUT and Aslan will be REBORN!

Reply Score: 0

Robert Escue Member since:
2005-07-08

Here is a history lesson for you. Several years ago there was a troll that went by the handle of shaman who announced to the world that OpenSolaris was vaporware. The trollfest that resulted from his comments on various Solaris and Linux related articles made OSNews the laughing stock of the online community. If you look hard enough you can find references to the low opnion of OSNews on sites like Digg, Slashdot and other places.

You are no different than shaman in my opinion, and should be kicked to the curb. Just because people have the right to express themselves doesn't mean that one should have to listen to your babbling crap at the expense of others who might actually have something to say of value. Your useless diatribe has not contributed to any part of the discussion on OpenSolaris and has more than likely chased off potential readers and commenters, who are sick of trolls taking over and spewing their drivel.

I am a 20 year US Navy veteran, so you can jam your lame attempts at insulting me, for it is you that has consistently proved that you have no business being here!

Reply Score: 2

mickrussom Member since:
2006-05-13

SXDE 1/08 was way, way better than Solaris 2008.05. Somehow opensolaris went from being vapor, to decent, to crap. I'm not trolling, but I'm not going to put lipstick on a pig.

There you go, revealing yourself to be a well trained Hitler youth. You simply cant ignore me, you must in some way try and force me to be silent. Authoritarian thugs have no place on the internet. You may have us trapped Hayden style in real life, but here we are still somewhat free.

So because you are a vet, you say that proves something. Because being a veteran means that your and your super-class of exalted citizens means there is not equal protection, no 14th amendment, and we need to kneel at the altar of the almighty law enforcement and military goons which are operating illegally per posse comitatus within the borders of the USA. You are part of a standing army which is not the militia and you are illegally enforcing law within the USA.

Next time you swear to defend the constitution, read it, examine how you violate it, and please, work to use it to route out threats both foreign and domestic. I like how the military thinks talk like this is rogue, but the Federal Reserve system and banks can erode the purchasing power of the "dollar" from 2005 to now, stealing from every man woman and child, and you goons sit idly by as the illegal government sells us into being bank slaves, and I, one man with an opinion, needs to be kicked down by these dark authoritarian forces even further, pay taxes, obey all laws, lose my free speech and be enslaved by banks, kick me more. Kick me when I'm already suppressed.

Reply Score: 0

mickrussom Member since:
2006-05-13

Escue taking orders from herr General Hayden

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/Michael_Hayden~*...

Show me zee papers!

Edited 2008-06-06 23:22 UTC

Reply Score: 1

jjgorsky Member since:
2008-06-05

Segdenum is a well known Anti-Sun troll here.


I didn't see any trolling. He did a - harsh, but that's his right - meta-review and everyone jumped on him for his anti-Sun attitude rather than addressing points he raised.

Here is a history lesson for you. Several years ago there was a troll that went by the handle of shaman who announced to the world that OpenSolaris was vaporware.


I was curious so I googled for "shaman osnews" and found this comment in a thread: http://osnews.com/thread?231568

Have to say it rings true from what I've seen. Myself and many others commenting I'm sure are not Sun haters. Rather we use Sun products, miss the days when Sun stuff was shiny and high-performance and cutting edge and exciting. Sun seems to be falteringly moving in that direction again which is great, but this hostility toward non-Solaris users or anyone that finds something they personally don't like in Solaris is getting tiresome.

From the article linked which started that thread - http://www.regdeveloper.co.uk/2007/04/13/readers_feedback_linux_vs_... - here's a true comment. "Well, one reason that people might choose to miss out on OpenSolaris is because we're (in general) a conservative lot -- once bitten, twice shy -- and a lot of people have had bad experiences with Solaris (and, dare we say it, also with Windows and Linux) in the past. No matter how much software and UI improves, it takes ages for the community to accept this. A reputation that took years to build can be lost with one bad release -- but won't be quickly reinstated with one good one. So there will always be people who resist change -- and why not, if what they have now works for them."

Sun would do well to print that comment up as a poster and put it in the hallways. Sun has been hostile to developers since the first days of Solaris, when they threw BSD under the bus and made everything SysV. POSIX_ME_HARDER indeed. That sure worked out well, look how Sun has retained compatibility with the wide variety of Unixes out there while no one uses Linux or FreeBSD because of their oddness.

Sun's compilers are top-notch and even have a few advantages over GCC in some areas. But they kept it out of the OS for years and years. Now it's free anyway, what was the point? But Sun people complain that this code or that code only builds in GCC, or somebody linked their package against libgcc. What did they expect? GCC may be a least common denominator but if it's available everywhere and Sun won't even let people look at their kit, no one's going to bother. I'm sure people are trying to retarget Sun's compiler now but it's not going to be a high priority and it will take a long time.

Solaris 8 was actually probably the easiest Solaris to build third party stuff against. Because it had nothing. Solaris 9 and 10 include pointless old versions of things to taunt you and screw up the dynamic linker.

X server with no features. No ssh for the longest time and then when it arrived it had no features. Twitchy curses with no features. Inability to even decide what the backspace key does. This may be changing but SunOS has been a desert since > 4.1.4 and perhaps (hopefully) < 5.11. Sun and Sun advocates need to realize this and come to the game with some humility.

Instead we have Sun developers ripping chunks out of third-party software and replacing them with their own code. Their right, but when their own code breaks I have it on good authority that the internal discussion doesn't focus on "should we have replaced this" and "what did we break" but complaining about the original developer, whose code didn't break while Sun's did.

Instead we have Sun mocking Linux for years, Bill Joy taking time out from anti-nanobots rants to mock open source and free software, Sun spreading FUD about the GPL any chance they got, Sun preventing people from even doing their own closed source Java builds for free and thereby providing Sun products to more platforms. Now Sun tries to pretend they have always been #1 open source leader? Please.

Instead we have Sun acting like they are the servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of POSIX. Any good idea from anywhere else, can't have it, either because it wasn't predicted or because Sun didn't invent it. Well that is a recipe for stagnation and the world moves on, finding new standards. GNU for example: you can build that toolchain anywhere and suddenly the underlying OS is basically irrelevant. I deplore a monoculture and homogenity but much of that is Sun's fault. And tell me this, if compatibility is so important how come Solaris /bin/sh is so broken, have to look in /usr/xpg to conform; how come SMF won't read inetd.conf for legacy, even though it reads /etc/rc* just fine?

Instead we have Sun people giving talks about DTrace at conferences and wasting time making fun of Linux for exploring another competing strategy. If Sun's is so good, just put it out there and let people find it. People found Java despite Sun's best efforts. Sniping from the side implies insecurity.

Anyway. I have Solaris systems. I've liked aspects of Solaris for a long time and always respected the kernel. I hope Solaris 11 when it comes out will meet my needs and those of my users. Sun should focus on retaining and growing its current user base, and on resolving issues from beta users rather than trying to refute them.

Reply Score: 1

Robert Escue Member since:
2005-07-08

There is a difference between shaman and segedunum, I have exchanged comments with shaman and he at least recognizes that some of Sun's technology is cool. Segedunum on the other hand has nothing nice to say about anything other than Linux. His other unique quality is his ability to pull stuff out of his posterior in order to support his position, an example of which is here:

http://osnews.com/thread?314698

And my response here:

http://osnews.com/thread?314699

His comments on my review aren't even worth responnding to, and his "problem" with running a python app on an UltraSPARC IV machine and it "magically" running better on a Linux machine is crap. Notice that he has yet to respond with any specific details as to why this was happening. If you have meaningful data that explains the behavior, show us. In their defense, neither shaman or segedunum got personal to my knowledge, like some people here.

Where I work, Solaris x86 got a bad rap because when they last used it in 1997 or 1998 it did not perform well. The poor performance I would attribute to not setting the IDE parameters correctly (if they used Solaris x86 on an IDE system). SCSI performance of Solaris x86 was good, based on my limited use. What bothered me is that nobody made any attempt to periodically check to see if anything improved. The shop I work in has been SPARC for years and will likely remain the same.

As far as compilers go, Sun wasn't the only company that did not ship a compiler as part of the OS. IBM doesn't ship one with AIX and one of my friends who used to manage IRIX machines told me that SGI wanted $20,000.00 for their C/C++ compiler. I have no experience with Sun's compiler, I have always used gcc and for what I need to compile it works just fine. That might change when and if I get Cool Threads servers in the shop, but for now gcc is fine.

Solaris 8 and 9 were OK, I prefer Solaris 10. The only time I had any trouble compiling anything with Solaris 10 is something that was built using either the entire GNU tool chain or specifically made for Linux.

While Sun points at SystemTap as a much lesser DTrace, keep in mind that at one time there was as much rhetoric coming out of RedHat against Sun as there was Sun rhetoric against RedHat. The post where I mentioned the RedHat sales droid is true, this was an actual conversation I had with a RedHat sales rep. And this is not the only example I can quote, it seemed that every meeting I went to where there was a RedHat presence, they always had something bad to say about Sun. I never heard that kind of talk from any Sun employee in face to face meetings.

If I was going to pay attention to a Linux distro, it would be SuSe. All Novell has to do is get out of their IBM OS/2 style marketing (in other words don't market it at all) and actually push their product. Their management software is clearly superior to anything RedHat has to offer, and while I haven't priced it out, I wouldn't be adverse to speaking to Novell formally.

Solaris for me works, but so did AIX and HP-UX. You just have to get familiar with each OS and their quirks, some have more quirks than others.

Reply Score: 2

mickrussom Member since:
2006-05-13

You know you are too quick to label people anti-Sun.

You seem to think I am anti-Sun, but when Sun canceled x86 Solaris I did find McNealy's internal email address and did take the time to write to and talk to as many people at Sun as possible to get that thing back.

You simply focus way too much on what "side" people are on, and that is detrimental to Sun to have complete zealots being advocates.

And about the python experiment, hell, if someone just runs "time" on something without profiling the code, and it runs faster, say on Linux, maybe some people don't have the know how to figure out why its slower.

If every Sun-lovers riposte is to savage someone, say "where is the details" and deny any form of useful help and make a regular Joe feel like a moron for relying on empirical data, then people just go and use something else.

Arun simply did not believe I had found and filed bugs involving ZFS under load. He refused to lend any credence to the issue unless I gave him bugIDs. I know what they are, and could even provide core files. In fact, at one point, the core files I was getting were themselves corrupted, that's the depth of the issue I was encountering, yet, somehow Arun felt it necessary to simple try and assault those who would find a problem with a Sun product.

Reply Score: 1

Robert Escue Member since:
2005-07-08

First, I don't have to label anyone or anything as anti-Sun, things just happen. Anyone with more than a few working brain cells that posts here knows that segedunum has nothing nice to say about Sun. FACT. RedHat's anti-Sun attitiude is almost the stuff of legend, or were you hiding under a rock when the CTO demanded that Sun open source Java, in case you can't find it, here it is:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/05/18/red_hat_sun_java_license/

I have attended multiple meetings with RedHat sales staff that make it plain as day that they don't like Sun and waste no time in telling you (minus certain key details) what is wrong with any Sun product.

Also a FACT.

I don't have to make this stuff up, the truth is so much more fun than fiction. I don't focus on it at all, you can't seem to wrap your head around the fact that I call a spade a spade. If you are a troll, you are a troll.

Where you pissed me off:

1. When I asked about using iozone your response was "#2 Don't tell me how to stress my boxes. Solaris doesnt fail the stress test with UFS, but it does with ZFS, so what the hell does that have to do with IOZONE? I know how to break file systems, thank you, I dont need you to tell me how."

Do you always bite the hand of the person trying to help you? Strike one.

2. When Arun asked you for the Case ID's for the cases you submitted to Sun, you could have provided them instead of giving him a lot of static. I couldn't find your problem on SunSolve (yes I do have a SunSolve account). My guess is you don't have the "god level access" you claim to have, and you are just whining. Why doesn't that surprise me. Strike two.

3. One of the clear signs of a troll is when they run out of their comfort zone technologically speaking, they start hurling insults. Anyone who is reading your diatribe is probably wondering whether I have contacted an attorney yet. You clearly are not in the position to judge either my technical competence or the quality of my service to the United States. Strike three.

If I was running OSNews, you would have been kicked out, permanently. Anyone who posts 112 comments and goes on a three hour rant with himself obviuosly needs to get a life at a minimum.

Finally, you want me to fix your silly assed problems, I charge $350.00 an hour, with an 8 hour minimum and require two days per diem up front, a 4 star hotel and first class airfare round trip. I also like a Mercedes or a Porsche as a rental car for the duration of my stay. I also like Cuban cigars, not those cheap Dominican ones, expensive Cognac and large chested blondes (real over silicone). You think your company can afford an "overpaid contractor" who can actually fix problems since it appears you can't?

Edited 2008-06-07 23:04 UTC

Reply Score: 2

BallmerKnowsBest Member since:
2008-06-02

If I was running OSNews, you would have been kicked out, permanently. Anyone who posts 112 comments and goes on a three hour rant with himself obviuosly needs to get a life at a minimum.


The only way to get kicked out of OSNews is to personally offend an admin. Lesson being? As long as you don't make fun of Fiona Apple, you can troll with impunity.

Reply Score: 1

mickrussom Member since:
2006-05-13

Um, the insults started by Arun WAY before I did and with a much higher frequency. You do have this thread and can read it.

If I'm a roll, then Arun is something way, way worse than that.

And if Arun is advocating for Sun, he is a bloody horrorshow at doing that.

Also, comfort zone. Lol. If you cant gather the level to which I'm comfortable with Solaris by reading the things I've said, well, horses and water.

I routinely port things to Solaris and use the Studio toolchain. I refuse where possible to run sunfreeware/blastwave cruft and try to do things the right way.

And again, lets pretend for a moment, that I'm manufacturing the God level access (I'll be sure to take a picture at Sun in a lab and post it to the web, and be sure while in that Sun building to hold up a current newspaper with your name on it, and pull up the bugster screen on a SunRay to shut you all down, give me a few days.), everything said here is true, there is nothing you or Arun can do to fix it, a simple search on bugs.opensolaris.org for all bugs open and zfs will pull up a plethora of warty bugs with ZFS, and in fact, today I just got a ZFS patch for Solaris 10u5 in the patch manifest.

Whats annoying is getting accused of being a troll when I'm simply reporting facts.

So when you go for the throat and more or less troll me, Ill respond with bombast and the like, since before things were made rude and nasty by Arun, I wasnt getting anything out of the deal, I really dont need you or Arun's help getting my production systems up, I Have boxes with uptime in the years, so I know how to do that, so what you leave me with is an options to be a bombastic crazy, because being constructive wasnt one the menu for a LONG time now.

Reply Score: 1

mickrussom Member since:
2006-05-13

By the way, Sun and RedHat are now in bed together, so the RedHat hate crud should be about over right about now.

http://www.redhat.com/promo/java/

http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunflash/2003-05/sunflash.20030519.4.x...

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13580_3-9811395-39.html

Also, I'll bet redhat gets javaws and the browser plugin working for 64-bit Linux before Sun does, since its been 3 years since 1.5.0 FCS , and they've simply ignore thousands of users and developers requesting this be fixed.

Reply Score: 1

mickrussom Member since:
2006-05-13

Finally, you want me to fix your silly assed problems, I charge $350.00 an hour, with an 8 hour minimum and require two days per diem up front, a 4 star hotel and first class airfare round trip. I also like a Mercedes or a Porsche as a rental car for the duration of my stay. I also like Cuban cigars, not those cheap Dominican ones, expensive Cognac and large chested blondes (real over silicone). You think your company can afford an "overpaid contractor" who can actually fix problems since it appears you can't?

Tax payers, see where corrupt government contractors get top billing and treatment on your dime. Like McCain, if your daddy was big in the military it brings in cushy contracts, apparently.

Never mind those poor wretched people from New Orleans who still don't have a place to live, this 20 year veteran needs to charge the taxpayers big bucks to fix things in an OS where the government has contracts to the extent were there any real flaws Sun would contractually obligated to fix them.

Again, the problems I'm having will most likely be resolved, but things shouldn't have ever gotten this far, you have all of Sun marketing declaring victory WAY before actual victory has been won.

Don't foist unfinished software as a panacea and you wont get criticized so hard.

Reply Score: 1

mickrussom Member since:
2006-05-13

Oh, and Cuban cigars are illegal to import to the US. I figure with the kinds of hookups you military types being above the law and all, you are probably exempt.

14th Amendment, whats that equal protection stuff about anyway? You don't have to know.

Reply Score: 1

mickrussom Member since:
2006-05-13

If I was running OSNews, you would have been kicked out, permanently. Anyone who posts 112 comments and goes on a three hour rant with himself obviously[sic] needs to get a life at a minimum.

Hitler ran Germany into the ground, too. Except it took him on the order of decades. You running this place? It would be irrelevant in a few months. Most fascist regimes implode.

Reply Score: 1

mickrussom Member since:
2006-05-13

$350/hr.

This is really rich. Since I am responsible for hires both here and in India, I could have a a team of at least 15 engineers with overhead work on a problem, probably more.

You simply are not worth $350, and if I had a problem that was worth $350/hr to fix, it certainly would be a big job, and I certainly could get the talent to do it far cheaper, with multiple QAs per developer, and far more effectively with a team from India.

You know a lot of Sun software is being made in Bangalore now, don't you?

Overpaid, arrogant ineffective folks like yourself are really pushing the outsourcing tide, congrats.

Many families in India thank you.

Reply Score: 1

mickrussom Member since:
2006-05-13

anyone who is reading your diatribe is probably wondering whether I have contacted an attorney yet

Since you claim to be of the government so much, and are mister ex-mil vet, the thing is the first amendment - its a bit from the bill of rights, its protects free speech.

I'll give you the two clauses that should be sufficient to protect:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


Since I am speaking and not committing libel/slander here, I have the right to free speech. Sorry, what General Hayden probably told you was ok to do, you know, like holding people without bail and sidestepping the Constitution at the CIA - it isn't the written law yet. But who looks for government guys to follow rules. Your Cuban cigars in point.

The second clause is, that as a super duper government man, I have a right to "petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

And since you have said I am insane several times, I could always try the insanity defense. I mean, the plaintiff here is feeding the defense.

Edited 2008-06-08 07:57 UTC

Reply Score: 1

jjgorsky Member since:
2008-06-05

RedHat's anti-Sun attitiude is almost the stuff of legend, or were you hiding under a rock when the CTO demanded that Sun open source Java, in case you can't find it, here it is:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/05/18/red_hat_sun_java_license/


FACT: Sun's bizarre licensing of Java hampered its development, usage, and spread for years.

They refused to let anyone do even closed source ports for ever. So the FreeBSD guys had to beg and plead even to be allowed to make a binary port and release it as "BETA PLEASE HELP US TEST" to FreeBSD beta testers only.

I've already mentioned the Blackdown thing so no need to go into it in detail. But I will add that Blackdown had Java ports to Linux on many architectures and when Sun took and re-released their work they released only a "LINUX" binary (meaning, RedHat on x86).

Java could have been on every OS everywhere if they had just loosened their grip and allowed people to help them for free.

From the article:

He criticized Sun for being reactive, rather than leading, on the issue of open source Java. "They try to do the minimal amount they can get away with," he said.


Are you seriously going to try to claim that wasn't true at the time that was written?



I have attended multiple meetings with RedHat sales staff that make it plain as day that they don't like Sun and waste no time in telling you (minus certain key details) what is wrong with any Sun product.

Also a FACT.


I don't trust any sales guy as far as I can throw him.

Are you saying RedHat does these horrible travesties and slander against Sun but Sun is always kind and nice to RedHat/Linux? I doubt it, because I have heard first and second hand of what Sun has had to say about Linux and about GPL and about open source generally until lately.

Sales guys lie, that's their job sadly. However on the Linux/BSD side I don't see a lot of advocacy from anyone but distro vendor sales droids. All the developers seem to spend their time writing or fixing code, and the few times they ever proclaim dominance it is always in a self deprecating amusing tone with a smiley ;-) (cf Linus)

Sun people seem to have a lot of free time at their job to talk trash.

Reply Score: 1

mickrussom Member since:
2006-05-13

FACT. RedHat's ...
Also a FACT.
head around the fact that


I remember a classic troll with liberal use of the word FACT, see below:


It is official; Netcraft now confirms: *BSD is dying
..<snip>..
Fact: *BSD is dying

Reply Score: 1

mickrussom Member since:
2006-05-13

I disagree with SuSE, CentOS/RHEL is a far better starting point for enterprise Linux.

I've noticed a lot of government agencies using SuSE and when I have to wedge a produce into SuSE, the build environment is really substandard, I have things building on Gentoo, RHEL, CENTOS, Debian/Ubuntu style systems and SuSE will choke. So with SuSE I usually have to make a different make file.

YAST2 is a better all-in-one configuration-station, but it is fraught with issues which makes it easier to deal with if it were broken up into separate utilities that attempted to do less.

Reply Score: 1

mickrussom Member since:
2006-05-13

I have always used gcc and for what I need to compile it works just fine. That might change when and if I get Cool Threads servers in the shop, but for now gcc is fine.

A guy who charges $350/hr cant even be bothered to use studio. I wonder, does using different compiler than the one that compiler your OS, along with linking to the OS c-library instead of libgcc, well, wouldn't that potentially affect the OS's "trusted" or ability to meet certain criteria the government has set forth, I mean, you can just change tool-chians and put random binaries compiled with random un-vetted compilers and still be secure? Sounds haphazard.

Reply Score: 1

mickrussom Member since:
2006-05-13

That video of the guy trying to hide the flaws in ZFS, pretty damning isnt it? Got under the skin a bit?

Reply Score: 1

mickrussom Member since:
2006-05-13

Ex military guy folks ex military. Wear you yellow ribbons because boy if they don't like you they want to take away your freedom of speech.

Reply Score: 0

jjgorsky Member since:
2008-06-05

BTW just wanted to make sure to say I liked your article.

I don't think anyone found fault with it.

Why argue with people - mickrussom has clearly gone off the deep end - that mention any discontentment with a third-party product? Why not just forward the discussion to Sun so they can review it for their work? Some is probably bad code, some is bad documentation, and some is user error. But all is addressible by Sun and a good opportunity to win customers.

Edited 2008-06-07 01:37 UTC

Reply Score: 1

Robert Escue Member since:
2005-07-08

Thanks.

Reply Score: 2