Linked by Thom Holwerda on Fri 6th Jun 2008 21:03 UTC
Microsoft As Bill Gates promised earlier this week during his last public speech as chairman of Microsoft at TechEd 2008, the company has released the second beta of Silverlight 2, Microsoft's Flash competitor. Silverlight 2 beta 2 comes as a 4.66MB download, but as Ars Technica already noted, the Silverlight homepage has not yet been changed to reflect the new release, but there is a changelog that details many of the changes in this release. The Mac OS X version has not yet been released.
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No thanks Microsoft
by bloodandsoil on Fri 6th Jun 2008 21:42 UTC
bloodandsoil
Member since:
2007-08-24

The last thing the web needs is another closed-source non-free media format.

Reply Score: 12

RE: No thanks Microsoft
by miscz on Fri 6th Jun 2008 21:58 UTC in reply to "No thanks Microsoft"
miscz Member since:
2005-07-17

We need competition. Adobe Flash sucks, it's uberbuggy, especially on Linux. Maybe Moonlight will be better, maybe Adobe will get it's act together to increase performance and incease stability. Users are winners here unless Microsoft installs Silverlight by default and I doubt they would go so far because they'd be sued out of billions of dollars in such case IMHO.

I don't care if it's free/open, give me something that works.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: No thanks Microsoft
by buff on Fri 6th Jun 2008 23:13 UTC in reply to "RE: No thanks Microsoft"
buff Member since:
2005-11-12

We need competition. Adobe Flash sucks, it's uberbuggy, especially on Linux.

Well, I wouldn't actually say it sucks, but I wouldn't actually call it great either. I find that it crashes Mozilla Seamonkey daily on Fedora 9. It is mostly video that crashes. I figure more competition is good since the Linux version sure needs help. Eventually a mono based Silverlight plugin will probably be available. I would try it out.

Edited 2008-06-06 23:14 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: No thanks Microsoft
by Xaero_Vincent on Sat 7th Jun 2008 11:24 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: No thanks Microsoft"
Xaero_Vincent Member since:
2006-08-18

Moonlight is already available, though support is really only there for Silverlight v1.1 ATM. Silverlight 2.0 support is under development, despite there being a profile 2.0 download.

You have to compile yourself if you want movie playback.

http://www.go-mono.com/moonlight/

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: No thanks Microsoft
by flywheel on Sun 8th Jun 2008 03:04 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: No thanks Microsoft"
flywheel Member since:
2005-12-28

Does that include the DRM-part ??? ;o)

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: No thanks Microsoft
by kaiwai on Sat 7th Jun 2008 03:43 UTC in reply to "RE: No thanks Microsoft"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

We need competition. Adobe Flash sucks, it's uberbuggy, especially on Linux. Maybe Moonlight will be better, maybe Adobe will get it's act together to increase performance and incease stability. Users are winners here unless Microsoft installs Silverlight by default and I doubt they would go so far because they'd be sued out of billions of dollars in such case IMHO. I don't care if it's free/open, give me something that works.


hmm, that was rather confusing. I don't know why someone marked down your post given that it is a well known issue with Flash - the fact that it is a royal memory sucking plugin which can turn any speedy browser into treacle.

On the matter of crappiness, I couldn't get over the reply by an Adobe manager on his blog about Flash for *NIX; "Oh, we're improving it, we are still learning lot about the platform" - YOU'RE LEARNING ON THE JOB?! that was my reaction; end users are the guinea pigs for this companies inability to find decent *NIX programmers?

At this momment, Flash is at the same situation which Netscape 4.x was at; decrapit, unstable, bloated, unreliable, and in dire need of some competition (for those clueless, it was Netscape who made the first shot on extending standards).

Microsoft has a new direction - ignore the sweaty balled man running the company; he is nothing more than front man to the real decisions that are made in the company. They may speak about the 'operating system' being important, but the reality, the more important issues they're facing are outside of that - hence the reason why there is no animosty towards mono, moonlight and so forth.

Reply Score: 6

RE[3]: No thanks Microsoft
by dagw on Sat 7th Jun 2008 09:51 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: No thanks Microsoft"
dagw Member since:
2005-07-06

On the matter of crappiness, I couldn't get over the reply by an Adobe manager on his blog about Flash for *NIX; "Oh, we're improving it, we are still learning lot about the platform" - YOU'RE LEARNING ON THE JOB?! that was my reaction; end users are the guinea pigs for this companies inability to find decent *NIX programmers?

To be fair *NIX is a faster moving and more diverse target to a far greater extent than both windows and Mac. Also the number of programmers available with deep multi platform *nix experience in the type of programming required for flash are probably very very few.

At the end of the day most non-trivial programming tasks are unique enough that learning on the job is the only way to get any significant experience with the hard details of that particular project.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: No thanks Microsoft
by ride01 on Sat 7th Jun 2008 11:18 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: No thanks Microsoft"
ride01 Member since:
2005-09-23

Flash for *NIX; "Oh, we're improving it, we are still learning lot about the platform" - YOU'RE LEARNING ON THE JOB?! that was my reaction; end users are the guinea pigs for this companies inability to find decent *NIX programmers?


Linux desktop users represent a tiny percentage of the market. I'm surprised there is a player for it at all.

Edited 2008-06-07 11:19 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: No thanks Microsoft
by Xaero_Vincent on Sat 7th Jun 2008 11:28 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: No thanks Microsoft"
Xaero_Vincent Member since:
2006-08-18

Linux desktop has nothing to do with it.

Flash is now almost a requirement for a full-fledged Internet experience. It hardly matters what type of user you are.

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: No thanks Microsoft
by wanker90210 on Sat 7th Jun 2008 20:59 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: No thanks Microsoft"
wanker90210 Member since:
2007-10-26

I would agree with the Netscape 4 comparison if it was flash 8 you were talking about. In Flash 9 they have cleaned up the data model quite a lot and AS3 is a big step forward. AS3 still isn't a beautiful language but it's getting there. It's not painful to code in anymore and executes in a decent speed.

Flash 10 has h/w support for rendering and 3d. This will (probably/hopefully) make flash a viable VM for other things than annoying ad-banners.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: No thanks Microsoft
by Kroc on Sat 7th Jun 2008 06:55 UTC in reply to "RE: No thanks Microsoft"
Kroc Member since:
2005-11-10

That's like saying the local Mafia needs some competition! We'd be better off without them, than with more of them. Silverlight just brings more opportunities for lock in, and less support for devices.

Apple leaving Flash out of the iPhone was probably the best move in years to getting brain dead webdesigners off of Flash and onto just plain HTML/Javascript.

Reply Score: 5

RE: No thanks Microsoft
by google_ninja on Fri 6th Jun 2008 22:08 UTC in reply to "No thanks Microsoft"
google_ninja Member since:
2006-02-05

The first priority of web technology is a good way to do rich application interfaces that work well cross platform.

The FOSS community has shown it either doesn't realize that, or just doesn't care, because its not like MS is doing some innovative market analysis here, it is blinding obvious, and has been for almost as long as there has been a web.

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: No thanks Microsoft
by FreeGamer on Sat 7th Jun 2008 14:04 UTC in reply to "RE: No thanks Microsoft"
FreeGamer Member since:
2007-04-13

In all fairness some of us try. I've put a lot of work into Vexi to solve this niche.

http://vexi.sourceforge.net/

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: No thanks Microsoft
by Clinton on Sun 8th Jun 2008 05:42 UTC in reply to "RE: No thanks Microsoft"
Clinton Member since:
2005-07-05

I think the reason there isn't an OSS Flash-like project is because of the huge marketing effort that would be involved to get people to use it.

I think OGG Vorbis is a good example of the difficulty an OSS Flash-like product would face. OGG is superior in all the important ways to MP3 (smaller, better sound, unencumbered), but it never really took off. Adobe and Microsoft can market something like Silverlight and Flash better than OSS developers could.

If an OSS project made a Flash replacement and could get the Mozilla guys to include the player in Firefox, they might have a chance.

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: No thanks Microsoft
by google_ninja on Sun 8th Jun 2008 12:52 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: No thanks Microsoft"
google_ninja Member since:
2006-02-05

I disagree. Mp3 is a "good enough" standard, flash sucks for making interfaces.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: No thanks Microsoft
by Clinton on Sun 8th Jun 2008 14:36 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: No thanks Microsoft"
Clinton Member since:
2005-07-05

I never said Flash didn't suck.

Reply Score: 2

RE: No thanks Microsoft
by WorknMan on Fri 6th Jun 2008 22:56 UTC in reply to "No thanks Microsoft"
WorknMan Member since:
2005-11-13

The last thing the web needs is another closed-source non-free media format.


Did you mean framework instead of format?

Anyway, these frameworks exist in order to solve a problem. What alternative (sans Moonlight) does the FOSS community have to offer?

Reply Score: 5

RE: No thanks Microsoft
by Hiev on Fri 6th Jun 2008 23:02 UTC in reply to "No thanks Microsoft"
Hiev Member since:
2005-09-27

Im still waiting for the Open Source proposal.

Reply Score: 4

RE: No thanks Microsoft
by jptros on Sat 7th Jun 2008 13:54 UTC in reply to "No thanks Microsoft"
jptros Member since:
2005-08-26

So get to work on your free os with your free development tools developing an open source and free alternative!

Edited 2008-06-07 13:55 UTC

Reply Score: 6

Comment by slashdev
by slashdev on Fri 6th Jun 2008 21:51 UTC
slashdev
Member since:
2006-05-14

Excellent, this framework interests me greatly!

Allowing Ruby, Python and other scripting languages to becoming first class languages for client scripting via the DLR is very interesting.

Reply Score: 4

It doesn't look too bad... expect to...
by JrezIN on Fri 6th Jun 2008 22:47 UTC
JrezIN
Member since:
2005-06-29

It doesn't look too bad... expect to...
2. Silverlight DRM, Powered by PlayReady ( link: http://blogs.msdn.com/silverlight_sdk/archive/2008/06/04/what-s-new... )

edit: preview wasn't right.

Edited 2008-06-06 22:50 UTC

Reply Score: 3

I hate Flash
by Chezz on Sat 7th Jun 2008 04:06 UTC
Chezz
Member since:
2005-07-11

I honestly hate flash. It is bloated, slow, and recently full of security holes. I have some old workstations that crawl if i load youtube or any page with flash media inside it. I even have a dual core and when I load a page with a flash media, one of the CPUs just hangs %100. I always felt that flash is crappy even when you want to use their active scripts and all flashy new features.

Reply Score: 5

RE: I hate Flash
by Bending Unit on Sat 7th Jun 2008 08:57 UTC in reply to "I hate Flash"
Bending Unit Member since:
2005-07-06

It could be worse. Remember Java Applets?

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: I hate Flash
by unoengborg on Sat 7th Jun 2008 09:42 UTC in reply to "RE: I hate Flash"
unoengborg Member since:
2005-07-06

Actually, there are much less risks with java Applets, all the code runs in a sandbox, and it have to be digitally signed to do any real harm on your computer.

Now days they also load very fast, and will load even faster Java 6 update 10 gets out in a few months. So I wourld say still java have its place in a browser.

However, standard java is targeted to business applications, and it is not as easy as in flash to develop annoying ads jumping up and down on your webpage.
For that, Sun have developed JavaFX,

Reply Score: 6

RE[2]: I hate Flash
by JeffS on Sat 7th Jun 2008 13:46 UTC in reply to "RE: I hate Flash"
JeffS Member since:
2005-07-12

In the old days, applets sucked. Then along came Flash, which was smaller and could do animation and movies better. So, even though Flash sucks in it's own way (huge cpu and memory hog), it ate Java applets lunch.

But applets are much better now. I get much better performance out of applets than flash.

Flash does tend to bring the browser, and host system, to it's knees.

Meanwhile, Java on the desktop received some serious optimization over the last 2-3 years.

And JavaFX is going to make Java much easier for the web and for various devices.

They are also shipping full media codecs now, fully built into JavaFX.

To top it off, in Java 6, update 10 (soon to be released), they are coming out with the "Java Kernel" - only the core needed bits, reduced down to a 3 meg download, while the rest of the full Java SE (about 10 more megs) are downloaded separately as needed and in the background.

That's good stuff.

And being that Java is fully cross platform (runs great on Linux!), is open source, has the Java community process, and has multiple vendor support, I'd have to say that it's the way to go over both Flash and Silverlight.

Reply Score: 6

No positive words from the OSS crowd
by chris_dk on Sat 7th Jun 2008 09:07 UTC
chris_dk
Member since:
2005-07-12

As always there are no positive words from the OSS crowd: all they only see are the problems. That Silverlight was born out of Microsoft blinds them.

Silverlight/WPF seems like a very good technology to have on open platforms. There is not a toolkit on Linux that can currently do what Silverlight can do.

I suspect that only the people who do not program are the ones that shout the loudest.

Reply Score: 14

Kroc Member since:
2005-11-10

Liking Silverlight for what it does is like encouraging weeds [to grow] because they have pretty flowers

Reply Score: 3

BallmerKnowsBest Member since:
2008-06-02

Liking Silverlight for what it does is like encouraging weeds [to grow] because they have pretty flowers


Wow, what a cunning analogy - as cunning as a fox what earned his PHd in cunning from Cambridge and was then given the position of Dean of Cunning.

Reply Score: 2

memson Member since:
2006-01-01

[q]As cunning as a fox what earned his PHd in cunning from Cambridge and was then given the position of Dean of Cunning.


Baldrick?

Reply Score: 4

Oh Great
by bolomkxxviii on Sat 7th Jun 2008 11:53 UTC
bolomkxxviii
Member since:
2006-05-19

Just what we need, more flashing, moving, noisy ads on web pages. Is that what they mean by web 2.0? Tell me this is progress. If this ever becomes popular Microsoft will make it a requirement to download anything off their web site. Someone please come up with a quick "on / off" button to sit in the system tray for silverlight.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Oh Great
by JeffS on Sat 7th Jun 2008 13:50 UTC in reply to "Oh Great"
JeffS Member since:
2005-07-12

Amen to that.

Flash is very annoying and overused. Just give me plain ol' HTML/Javascript, with a little bit of DHTML/Ajax techniques (only a little, please), with quality content and a clean, simple presentation, and I'm happy.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Oh Great
by google_ninja on Sun 8th Jun 2008 20:37 UTC in reply to "Oh Great"
google_ninja Member since:
2006-02-05

Web 2.0 == Bloated js, AJAX everywhere, and rounded corners. Doesn't have anything to do with flash (or silverlight)

The problem with flash is it is hard to use it for stuff beyond movies (which is what it was designed for). Silverlight is designed specifically for responsive, rich interfaces, and will hopefully deliver something that people have been trying to do (and failing horribly) since sun first stuck an applet in a web page.

Reply Score: 4

Missing the point!
by memson on Sun 8th Jun 2008 09:16 UTC
memson
Member since:
2006-01-01

Silverlight is going to be used to death in corperate RIA's. It is really exciting for this application. Anything that takes off in corperate space has a good chance of becoming consumer.

No advert intended, but google "Goa". They have a framework that allows what I assume Silverlight 2 will provide.

Reply Score: 2

I think JavaFX will win.
by theuserbl on Mon 9th Jun 2008 16:19 UTC
theuserbl
Member since:
2006-01-10

I think, betweeen Flash, Silverlight and JavaFX, is JavaFX the guy who will be win.

Have a look at the videos at
http://www.javafx.com/
http://www.javafx.com/compressed/
http://www.javafx.com/movs/

- Java is OpenSource and JavaFX will be.
- You can see with JavaFX videos, too and see it in a 3D-room and so on
- You can take one of the new Applets out of the browser and have an application, which creates an icon on your desktop and which you can start everytime offline
- same programs can run as Applet, as Application, on mobile phones and TV (in this case the future goal is similar to flash: http://www.adobe.com/openscreenproject/ )

Reply Score: 1