Linked by Flatland_Spider on Wed 1st Oct 2008 00:05 UTC
Microsoft Yesterday Microsoft started introducing Visual Studio 2010 to Windows developers with a press release and a MSDN website. Introductions to the next Visual Studio also popped up on various technology news sites; InformationWeek, ChannelWeb, Microsoft Watch, BetaNews, and Ars Technica each have brief summary and explaination of the information Microsoft has released so far. Only NetworkWorld digs into the subject by asking various developers to give their impressions of the new Visual Studio.
Order by: Score:
v virus compatible
by bhuot on Wed 1st Oct 2008 01:40 UTC
Marketting lingo is killing my brain
by Zenja on Wed 1st Oct 2008 01:55 UTC
Zenja
Member since:
2005-07-06

I dont know if MSDN has editors which can authorise / censor releases, but that webpage was so full of marketing double-speak that it's killing my brain. Every time I read one of those new-age marketing words, my brain automatically replaces those terms with bullshit. Even then, the article doesn't make any sense.

And I'm a professional software engineer with over 12 years experience.

Reply Score: 10

Athlander Member since:
2008-03-10

"Microsoft described the next release through the following five focus areas: riding the next-generation platform wave, inspiring developer delight, powering breakthrough departmental applications, enabling emerging trends such as cloud computing, and democratizing application life-cycle management (ALM)."

The PR office probably celebrated after writing this.

Reply Score: 9

flanque Member since:
2005-12-15

You don't have to justify your comment with your experience. What you said was entirely true, even to those who know nothing about it.

Reply Score: 2

Trying to read the article
by ShadesFox on Wed 1st Oct 2008 04:01 UTC
ShadesFox
Member since:
2006-10-01

First, I suggest anyone reading the article just skip the bullet points. It sounds like it was run through the buzz word generator. http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/scigen/

On the whole it is very light on real content. It looks like they added a UML graphing utility that the pointy haired boss can fiddle with. It says that it is to 'enable users', but the users aren't going to care. Most of the time programming is just black magic as far as they care.

There is also a debugging tool that is meant to capture enough system and application state from the testers to get all the information to reproduce bugs. Eliminating the "No-repro" bugs, in the parlance they just made up. This one might actually be pretty cool, as long as you have enough of a bull shit detector to realize that it probably won't eliminate non-reproducible bugs like they claim.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Trying to read the article
by jayson.knight on Wed 1st Oct 2008 05:35 UTC in reply to "Trying to read the article"
jayson.knight Member since:
2005-07-06

There is also a debugging tool that is meant to capture enough system and application state from the testers to get all the information to reproduce bugs. Eliminating the "No-repro" bugs, in the parlance they just made up. This one might actually be pretty cool, as long as you have enough of a bull shit detector to realize that it probably won't eliminate non-reproducible bugs like they claim.


No automated piece of software will ever capture as much useful information as a good QA department.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Trying to read the article
by evangs on Wed 1st Oct 2008 05:54 UTC in reply to "RE: Trying to read the article"
evangs Member since:
2005-07-07

That's true, but such tools can go a long way towards making software more robust. If you take that approach, do you not bother with unit tests? After all, the testing department will catch the bugs anyway.

Reply Score: 2

PlatformAgnostic Member since:
2006-01-02

I agree... nothing is more useful (for lower layer software,to be sure) than a set of great assertions so that the debug builds of the code test themselves to the greatest extent possible. And of course a set of unit tests to drive the system through at least the mainstream cases.

Reply Score: 3

google_ninja Member since:
2006-02-05

Unit tests are as important as anything else. There are a series of tests that need to go into making quality software. If any step of the process is skipped, your standard of quality goes down. The more complex the system you are creating is, the more important this is.

It starts with unit tests, which each test a small atomic unit of work and run very fast. These should be all pass in a module the developer is working on at the least before every check in. This is a safety net for regressions due to bug fixes, and also increases confidence for refactorings. If you need to change the way something works, through unit tests you have immediate feedback on how those change impact the rest of the system.

Check ins should trigger automatic builds, and those builds should trigger integration tests. Integration tests are more end to end, and will interact with outside infrastructure (like databases, web services, etc).

There should be nightlies that go out to QA. QA runs scenario tests where they methodically hammer at the software through the interface. The scenarios they use should be written against the specs.

There should also be performance tests at the end of an iteration, (2-4 weeks) so that you are able to track the performance impact recent changes have had on the system.

Keep in mind I am an enterprise guy passionate about agile in general, and SCRUM in particular, so if I talk strongly about testing that is why. But I strongly believe there is no way to create quality software without the right kinds, and the right amount of testing.

Reply Score: 2

jayson.knight Member since:
2005-07-06

That's true, but such tools can go a long way towards making software more robust. If you take that approach, do you not bother with unit tests? After all, the testing department will catch the bugs anyway.


Unit testing should always be done by the developer IMO. Most software practices follow that rule now.

Reply Score: 1

Broken link
by Johann Chua on Wed 1st Oct 2008 04:37 UTC
Johann Chua
Member since:
2005-07-22
RE: Broken link
by estherschindler on Wed 1st Oct 2008 12:44 UTC in reply to "Broken link"
estherschindler Member since:
2005-07-12

Actually, the "networkworld" link shouldn't point to InformationWeek, which is a competing publication.

And NetworkWorld picked up my article from CIO.com (as we're sister publications). The original link is http://www.cio.com/article/451622

Reply Score: 1

RE: Broken link
by Flatland_Spider on Wed 1st Oct 2008 13:17 UTC in reply to "Broken link"
Flatland_Spider Member since:
2006-09-01

Crap, I screwed the links up. ;) Sorry about that.

Here is the http://www.networkworld.com/news/2008/092908-developers-respond-to-...

Along with http://www.informationweek.com/news/windows/operatingsystems/showAr... CRN" rel="nofollow">http://www.crn.com/software/210604526">CRN, http://www.microsoft-watch.com/content/developer/what_does_visual_s... Betanews" rel="nofollow">http://www.betanews.com/article/Microsoft_shares_early_videos_scree... , and http://arstechnica.com/journals/microsoft.ars/2008/09/30/microsoft-... .

Reply Score: 1

watch out!
by lelutin on Wed 1st Oct 2008 05:23 UTC
lelutin
Member since:
2008-07-17

Watch out, Microsoft!
the use of "2010" is copyrighted by the IOC!
(c.f. http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/09/30/2257234&from=rss )

Reply Score: 2

2010?
by Loki_999 on Wed 1st Oct 2008 07:10 UTC
Loki_999
Member since:
2008-05-06

But its only 2008! What will they release in 2010?

Reply Score: 2

RE: 2010?
by REM2000 on Wed 1st Oct 2008 07:57 UTC in reply to "2010?"
REM2000 Member since:
2006-07-25

this really is a look ahead, VS2008 hasn't been out too long (feb 08).

Although i don't program in .net (im a delphi fan myself) ive always thought that the VS IDE is one of the best around.

Reply Score: 2

Democratize this
by sardaukar on Wed 1st Oct 2008 08:29 UTC
sardaukar
Member since:
2006-05-09

Jesus, "Democratizing Application Lifecycle Management" ? Give me a break with the buzzwords already...

Reply Score: 3

But what about VS 2008?
by chaosvoyager on Wed 1st Oct 2008 12:41 UTC
chaosvoyager
Member since:
2005-07-06

Why do I still need VS 2005 to compile things like Google Chrome when 2008 is out?

Hopefully, VS 2010 will address this issue.

Reply Score: 1

Comment by merkoth
by merkoth on Wed 1st Oct 2008 13:47 UTC
merkoth
Member since:
2006-09-22

Wow, my BS-o-meter just asploded.

Reply Score: 4

...
by Hiev on Wed 1st Oct 2008 14:29 UTC
Hiev
Member since:
2005-09-27

.NET to me has been one of the biggest scams, at least for me. When our projects were made with Delphi we could have the solution in a couple of monts, with .NET it take us from 6 to 8 months, but there is no way you can make a hyped IT change his mind.

This is my personal opinion, if .NET has worked for you then Im glad, but honestly it has been overrated, after measuring the results, that's my conclution.

Reply Score: 2

RE: ...
by fretinator on Wed 1st Oct 2008 15:48 UTC in reply to "..."
fretinator Member since:
2005-07-06

.NET to me has been one of the biggest scams, at least for me. When our projects were made with Delphi we could have the solution in a couple of monts, with .NET it take us from 6 to 8 months


I'm not a big fan of Microsoft, but I do give them credit for good development tools. Also, I have found .NET to be a very productive language for the following reasons:

1. Fully object oriented - for those who came from the VB6 world, this is quite a step up. No longer do the VB guys have to talk about their "Object-based" language. VB is now fully in the OO world. However, this can be a bummer for those VB6 folks who never really "got" the OO concept, and were just cranking out piles of spaghetti code.

2. Multi-language projects - the divide between the VC and VB aisles dramatically narrowed. Before, the pocket-protector crowd gravitated to the Visual C++ side of the house, and the folks who had actually been on dates were on the VB6 side. Now, if they were smart, the VC guys have moved on to C#, and the VB guys can now fully cooperate on the same projects. Heck, even you Delphi.NET folks are welcome!

3. Desktop vs. web - the gap between the web folks and the desktop crowd also was narrowed. Using .NET, the desktop and web paradigms are much more similar than in the past. Most desktop developers have little trouble adjusting to the ASP.NET world.

As for your team taking that much longer to do .NET projects, I imagine that is just the adjustment to new languages. I would have recommended Delphi.NET to better resuse your skills.

As for me, Go Mono!

Reply Score: 2

Embracement of the future trough Vim
by righard on Wed 1st Oct 2008 14:54 UTC
righard
Member since:
2007-12-26

Vim,

Bram Moolenaar to release it's next generation auto documenting multi-platform text editor. Vim, the de facto split-window-capable text editors new strengths come from refocussing it's attention at the four pillars of new modern technologies:
- Time-phased sharing of Web 2.0 standards.
- Rationalising of business integration management.
- Multicapable future interface features.
- Maintaining organising enterprise integration.
This all, together with Vim's new and powerful logic cloud based editing focus shift is sure to pave the road to your company's future.

Vim, laying the foundation of your enterprises embracement of the future!

Reply Score: 2

fretinator Member since:
2005-07-06

You forgot Synergistic Service-oriented Search and Multi-paradigm Global Infrastructure Supply Chain Replacement.

%s/truth/buzzwords/g

Reply Score: 2

...
by Hiev on Wed 1st Oct 2008 17:01 UTC
Hiev
Member since:
2005-09-27

1. Fully object oriented - for those who came from the VB6 world, this is quite a step up. No longer do the VB guys have to talk about their "Object-based" language. VB is now fully in the OO world. However, this can be a bummer for those VB6 folks who never really "got" the OO concept, and were just cranking out piles of spaghetti code.

Im sure it is a breeze ifor VB6 developers, but we used objects in Delphi before C# even existed.

2. Multi-language projects - the divide between the VC and VB aisles dramatically narrowed. Before, the pocket-protector crowd gravitated to the Visual C++ side of the house, and the folks who had actually been on dates were on the VB6 side. Now, if they were smart, the VC guys have moved on to C#, and the VB guys can now fully cooperate on the same projects. Heck, even you Delphi.NET folks are welcome!

We are able to mix Delphi, C++ and python already, we are not interesting in VB.

3. Desktop vs. web - the gap between the web folks and the desktop crowd also was narrowed. Using .NET, the desktop and web paradigms are much more similar than in the past. Most desktop developers have little trouble adjusting to the ASP.NET world.

Delphi comes with the Intraweb framerwork, all your delphi code can, and actually is rehused if we need to make web pages, actually it is and advantage not have to depend of IIS at all,

Delphi.NET is good but the depency of the .NET framework is a killer.

As I said, we developep faster with the same practices in Delphin than with C#.

Good to see it works for others.

Edited 2008-10-01 17:05 UTC

Reply Score: 2