Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 17th Nov 2008 19:09 UTC, submitted by shaneco
Windows "Depending on where you look, Windows 7 is being called a savior for the embattled Vista, or a disaster waiting to happen. Regardless, certain interface features in Windows 7, whether brand new or streamlined, have been mostly applauded by experts who have tested the pre-beta. Which features are the most interesting and controversial? Here are five that deserve your attention."
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I don't know...
by Clinton on Mon 17th Nov 2008 19:21 UTC
Clinton
Member since:
2005-07-05

I'm sure Windows 7 will be an improvement over Vista (at least one would hope), but I'm not sure things like "Libraries", "HomeGroup", and a revamped task bar are really addressing the myriad problems that currently exist.

Reply Score: 7

RE: I don't know...
by modmans2ndcoming on Tue 18th Nov 2008 02:37 UTC in reply to "I don't know..."
modmans2ndcoming Member since:
2005-11-09

which are?

Reply Score: 2

Disaster waiting to happen
by google_ninja on Mon 17th Nov 2008 19:28 UTC
google_ninja
Member since:
2006-02-05

Mac users will say that they stole the dock from apple, even though it looks more like the riscOS dock then the mac one and doesn't really behave like either.

Windows "power users" will be up in arms, sign online petitions, and flame it on message boards like this one, never realizing that the only people who care are themselves.

Linux users will cite it as yet another reason that people should switch to linux, glossing over all the massive interface changes people would have to get used to.

Interface experts will praise it, like they did the ribbon in office.

The 80%+ of normal users will take about a month to wrap their heads around it, then end up liking the change, just like the ribbon in office.

Edited 2008-11-17 19:28 UTC

Reply Score: 10

RE: Disaster waiting to happen
by poundsmack on Mon 17th Nov 2008 20:02 UTC in reply to "Disaster waiting to happen"
poundsmack Member since:
2005-07-13

as a windows power user (an enlighened one, not the blinded "my way or no way" type) I am looking forward to the new dock. while it is a graphical overhall it also represents a new level of funtionality. some of the so called power users will be upset that they dont get to do it the "clasic" way any more. but honestly the new dock is great and within 3 minuites of using it you wont ever want to go back. also, what most people wouldnt expect is that dock is lightning quick in responce time, i personaly was shocked with my experience.

Reply Score: 4

google_ninja Member since:
2006-02-05

In my experience, windows "power users" never really want anything to change. I have always found this odd, because (again in my experience) both linux and apple "power users" absolutely love new stuff getting added, or things getting moved around.

An example of this is the Network and Sharing center in vista. Windows peer to peer networking has always been a pain to set up, configure, and trouble shoot, due to the lack of any real panel like that. Pre vista, I found it easier to set up file sharing on a windows workgroup with linux and osx machines then with windows machines, which is kind of sad. When vista launched, there were nothing but complaints about it though from power users who (i guess) wanted their obtuse wizard back.

Another one would be the ribbon in office 2k7. I have a friend who is a certified office trainer, and he despised it when he started learning it. By the end of his training, he admitted though that it was a better design then before.

I've only been using windows seriously for about five years now, but I am probably a power user by now too, and I think the changes are great, so I'm sure there are people out there that both know windows, and enjoy playing with new OS features. But at the same time, I expect a revolt by the majority.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Disaster waiting to happen
by Delgarde on Mon 17th Nov 2008 20:05 UTC in reply to "Disaster waiting to happen"
Delgarde Member since:
2008-08-19

Linux users will cite it as yet another reason that people should switch to linux, glossing over all the massive interface changes people would have to get used to.


The 80%+ of normal users will take about a month to wrap their heads around it, then end up liking the change, just like the ribbon in office.


Aren't you contradicting yourself a bit here? Either people can't handle massive interface changes, in which case your second point is wrong. Or they get used to it fairly quickly, in which case your first point is wrong. Which one is it?

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Disaster waiting to happen
by poundsmack on Mon 17th Nov 2008 20:15 UTC in reply to "RE: Disaster waiting to happen"
poundsmack Member since:
2005-07-13

"Either people can't handle massive interface changes, in which case your second point is wrong. Or they get used to it fairly quickly, in which case your first point is wrong. Which one is it?"

you are assuming that ALL people are the same. people well react differently to things. though the MASSES will likey get used ot the changes in a month like the previous poster said. the tech savey will take about 5 minutes, and then each day explore something cool by mistake (since we are tech savey and saw no reason to do the "take a tour of the new features option" ;) .

I am really waiting ot see Apple's adds when this comes out and people like it.

"hello I'm a mac"
"and I'm a PC"
mac: "i hear you upgraded to windows 7"
pc: ya, its pretty good, boot time is fast, UI is nicely revamped, nice and responive, suports tons of codecs and features users have wanted for years, and its sister server (2008 R2) is incredible."
mac: ....well, ....you ...your a butt head"
pc: "very mature..."
/end

Reply Score: 2

google_ninja Member since:
2006-02-05

If your complaint is a change to the taskbar, suggestions to move to something where more then the taskbar changes are not going to be helpful in any way.

I've seen linux "evangelist" suggest switching when people complained about games not working well when vista launched too. same twisted logic.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Disaster waiting to happen
by Dave_K on Tue 18th Nov 2008 22:20 UTC in reply to "RE: Disaster waiting to happen"
Dave_K Member since:
2005-11-16

Windows 7 is hardly a massive interface change. The amount you need to relearn is tiny compared with a switch to Linux.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Disaster waiting to happen
by lemur2 on Wed 19th Nov 2008 00:57 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Disaster waiting to happen"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

Windows 7 is hardly a massive interface change. The amount you need to relearn is tiny compared with a switch to Linux.


What do you imagine that you need to re-learn with a switch to Linux?

Given a Linux system properly pre-installed, then here you go:

(1) There are two passwords, and admin password and your normal user login password (except for Ubuntu, where the one password does double duty). If you are asked for the admin password, it is because a change is about to be made to the system. If you didn't actually want anything changed ... don't give the admin password.

(2) on Linux, there is a one-stop convenient place to install software from. It is called "Add/Remove software" on the main menu. You can "browse" it like a smorgasboard, and use search, there are 20,000+ packages to choose from, and if you stick to it then your system won't get malware. This is the only place where you would normally use the admin passwrod.

(3) on the Menu, the programs are grouped into main categories (such as "Office", "Multimedia" and "Internet"), and then each actual entry on the menu is named for what the program actually does (such as "Web browser", "Text editor" or "Wordprocessor"). You don't need to know the name of the company that made the program in order to find it on the menus.

(4) most of the programs that you would normally use are already installed for you. You normally don't have to search the Internet for any extra stuff, anyway most "unusual" extra stuff is readily available from the "Add/Remove programs", and it is all available at no extra cost. BTW it is also all guaranteed to be add free, and not trialware or shareware. Enjoy.

(5) Yes, you use the menus and click on things just as you would with Windows. The menu button is in the same place, it just doesn't have the word "Start" written on it.

(6) Yes, copy and paste work the same way. If you just want to copy text strings, you don't even have to copy it ... just select the text with the mouse, and then "middle-click" where you want it pasted.

(7) You actually get four "desktops", not just the one. This is great for organising busy screens. You can even "spin" them around as a 3D cube, which is a good way to visualise what is happening.

(8) Yes, OpenOffice works a lot like Microsoft Office, and it can even read and save the same files if you like. Some of the menus are a bit different, but it is a lot easier to get used to than that "ribbon" stuff.

(9) OpenOffice includes a "drawing" package that MS Office doesn't have as standard.

(10) Yes, I have to agree that the raster graphics "paint" program also has a funny name and is weird to use. "GIMP" is indeed strange. Try Krita ... it also has a funny name, but it is a lot more like Photoshop that you may be used to. Both of these, by the way, can be found on the menu where you would expect, under the "Graphics" group.

(11) Instead of "Outlook" use either Thunderbird or Evolution ... yes they are funny names, but no funnier or stranger than "Outlook" is when you think about it. On the menu, the program is listed under the "Internet" group as the "Email" application ... which is far easier to find when you think about it than "Outlook" under the "Microsoft" group.

(12) The "Home" icon in the file manager is effectively the same as "documents and settings".

(13) Yes, when you plug in a USB stick, it will open automatically, as will a CD or a DVD. Rather than "stopping" it, you should instead choose "eject" or "unmount" before you unplug it again. These mean the same thing, for a USB stick.

(14) Use either "Brasero" or "K3B" to burn CDs or DVDs. Either one is at least as good as Nero.

(15) No, you don't need an anti-virus or anti-malware. Just use only the "Add/Remove programs" to install additional software, and don't give the admin password anywhere else.

(16) I'd recommend Amarok for your music collection. It is a way better iTunes than iTunes. "SMplayer" or "VLC" are the best options to play videos. VLC will play DVDs for you ... but SMPlayer needs an extra bit to read the DVDs that is sometimes not installed. Search for "dvdcss" in the "Add/Remove programs" ... if it isn't listed, use VLC.

(17) The instant messenger program is called "Pidgin", strangely enough. It think it is meant to suggest a carrier pidgeon. It works with a number of different messenger systems. Yes, also found in the "Internet" group on the menu. I think you are getting the hang of it.

... anything else? Yes, I can't really think of anything either. I'm sure you will cope ... it isn't really all that different to use from Windows really, apart from where it is better. Have fun.

A free tutorial for you.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Disaster waiting to happen
by SodaAnt on Mon 17th Nov 2008 21:34 UTC in reply to "Disaster waiting to happen"
SodaAnt Member since:
2005-11-15

Add a option to enable "classic" taskbar. Problem solved.

Reply Score: 2

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Add a option to enable "classic" taskbar. Problem solved.


Won't happen, Microsoft already said they're not going to do that.

http://www.osnews.com/story/20464/No_Legacy_Switch_for_New_Taskbar

Reply Score: 4

RE: Disaster waiting to happen
by lemur2 on Tue 18th Nov 2008 00:08 UTC in reply to "Disaster waiting to happen"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

Linux users will cite it as yet another reason that people should switch to linux, glossing over all the massive interface changes people would have to get used to.

Interface experts will praise it, like they did the ribbon in office.


Double standard.

Either the "ribbon everywhere" approach taken in Windows 7 is likewise a "glossed-over massive interface change" ... or interface experts should also be praising Linux innovations such as KDE4.

What is good for the goose is good for the gander. One should try at least to be consistent.

Personally, I would think that Windows 7 will try to keep legacy compatibility ... and hence will still be the same unmitigated security disaster just as all its predecessors have been. I think Windows 7 will keep all of the DRM and super-secret-sauce internal workings (such as .NET and ActiveX and all similar legacy cruft such as this) and hence be the same performance dog that Vista is. I think Windows 7 will still have Windows update that works in the same way, and hence have the same backdoor for Microsoft as its predecessors.

Finally, Windows 7 will have at least the same (if not far worse) EULA, so that despite paying for it you won't own it or have any rights to it at all, and you will not have control of your own hardware and data.

Edited 2008-11-18 00:10 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Disaster waiting to happen
by poundsmack on Tue 18th Nov 2008 00:23 UTC in reply to "RE: Disaster waiting to happen"
poundsmack Member since:
2005-07-13

"I think Windows 7 will keep all of the DRM and super-secret-sauce internal workings (such as .NET and ActiveX and all similar legacy cruft such as this) and hence be the same performance dog that Vista is."

Stop the presses! .NET is a super secret! ...unless you went to MS's website and got the docs for programming with .NET in windows. .NET's intigration into windows is also no secret really.

Windows 7 goes into improving security a bit, not as much as they tried from xp to vista but it fine tunes and reworks some stuff introduced into vista (more is planned and being worked on but currently un accounced, which should be at the end of decemeber if i remember the upcomming press release dates, or were those not officialy announced, oops).

windows 7 will suport legacy code, and its not a totaly radical API change (barely any chance at all actualy) but teh fact of the matter is this. if someone wants to exploit something in even the most secure environments, eventualy, with enough time and man power, it will be done. Windows is a target not due to it's security model per say, but due to its customer base assosiated with the OS. its just the way it is...

"Finally, Windows 7 will have at least the same (if not far worse) EULA, so that despite paying for it you won't own it or have any rights to it at all, and you will not have control of your own hardware and data."

good thing its not as loose as Apple's EULA that lets you have total freedom of... oh wait.

Edited 2008-11-18 00:24 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Disaster waiting to happen
by lemur2 on Tue 18th Nov 2008 00:53 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Disaster waiting to happen"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

"I think Windows 7 will keep all of the DRM and super-secret-sauce internal workings (such as .NET and ActiveX and all similar legacy cruft such as this) and hence be the same performance dog that Vista is." Stop the presses! .NET is a super secret! ...unless you went to MS's website and got the docs for programming with .NET in windows. .NET's intigration into windows is also no secret really.


Altough some parts of .NET are open standards, Windows.forms, ADO.NET and ASP.NET are very much closed, proprietary Microsoft technologies. The idea here is to get as many developers as possible using .NET, and hence writing as much new code in .NET as possible, making the vast majority of new applications Windows-only.

Only Microsoft would try to hold the world to ransom by making the majority of software development an activity constrained to Windows platforms.

Windows 7 goes into improving security a bit, not as much as they tried from xp to vista but it fine tunes and reworks some stuff introduced into vista (more is planned and being worked on but currently un accounced, which should be at the end of decemeber if i remember the upcomming press release dates, or were those not officialy announced, oops). windows 7 will suport legacy code, and its not a totaly radical API change (barely any chance at all actualy) but teh fact of the matter is this. if someone wants to exploit something in even the most secure environments, eventualy, with enough time and man power, it will be done. Windows is a target not due to it's security model per say, but due to its customer base assosiated with the OS.


Windows 7 will relax UAC. Other than that it retains binary compatibility with legacy Windows applications ... which means it will still run all of the huge stack of malware out there.

This is improved security ... how? On what planet?

its just the way it is... "Finally, Windows 7 will have at least the same (if not far worse) EULA, so that despite paying for it you won't own it or have any rights to it at all, and you will not have control of your own hardware and data." good thing its not as loose as Apple's EULA that lets you have total freedom of... oh wait.


Mac OSX is very nice compared with XP and Vista (and presumably Windows 7 as well) ... but I agree its EULA is no better.

Gnome's "EULA" is far better than either one ... it doesn't exist. It is a worry though that increasing amounts of Mono (and hence Windows.forms, ADO.NET and ASP.NET) are being forcibly crammed into Gnome-based distributions. Perhaps the unstated underlying aim here is to try to force a sort of "inherited" EULA on some Linux users.

http://www.mono-project.com/WinForms
http://www.mono-project.com/Guide:_Porting_Winforms_Applications

Fortunately, KDE4, the most advanced and innovative desktop of the whole lot, suffers from none of this sort of malarky. A true bastion of end-user freedom.

For those who want staid stability rather than cutting edge on their desktop, there is always XFCE instead of Gnome. The two are becoming almost indistinguishable, except that XFCE has no Mono and better clipboard management installed by default. Also a bastion of end-user freedom.

Finally, there is always a choice of the various BSD distributions out there still. Some of them will even run KDE desktop software.

Edited 2008-11-18 00:59 UTC

Reply Score: 1

modmans2ndcoming Member since:
2005-11-09

Hmm.. I thought the idea of .net was to provide a better interface to system level programing on windows... silly me.

Must be how com+ programming locked in all those C++ developers from ever using another C++ framework.

Frankly, what keeps windows developers happy on windows is the way way way way way way way way way better development tools.

what you have on Linux is "good enough" to get a job done, but it sure as hell isn't great by any stretch.

Reply Score: 3

google_ninja Member since:
2006-02-05

Stop trolling every windows story lemur. This had nothing to do with linux. I'm sort of tired of talking the same talk with you again and again over this. This site is not called linux news, it is called osnews.

seriously, im glad you like linux. have fun with it. if you really thought it was any good, you wouldn't feel the burning need to justify your use of it by trash talking everything else all the time.

Edited 2008-11-18 01:38 UTC

Reply Score: 8

RE[3]: Disaster waiting to happen
by lemur2 on Tue 18th Nov 2008 03:02 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Disaster waiting to happen"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

Stop trolling every windows story lemur. This had nothing to do with linux.


You were the one who introduced comment about Linux into this thread, not I.

To quote you directly, from the second post in this thread:
"Linux users will cite it as yet another reason that people should switch to linux, glossing over all the massive interface changes people would have to get used to."


I merely pointed out the double standard in your comment, compared to your very next sentence, which was indeed about Windows 7.

All of my other comment on this thread is about Windows 7, apart from that which is in response to your introduction of Linux into the topic.

Edited 2008-11-18 03:05 UTC

Reply Score: 4

google_ninja Member since:
2006-02-05

I didn't say anything about linux, I was talking about the series of dumbass things that are going to be done by the various "computer enuthiasts" out there on the interwebs over the dock in windows.

I didn't say anything about KDE, linux frameworks, or linux licenses.

If you think that the reputation of those things are so fragile that you must leap to their defense at the smallest possibility of a slight with this huge canned "Anti-windows" response, I genuinely feel sorry for you.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Disaster waiting to happen
by lemur2 on Tue 18th Nov 2008 05:36 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Disaster waiting to happen"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

I didn't say anything about linux


Yes your comment was about Linux.

You had a potshot at Linux for "requiring" users to make a claimed big adjustment to a different UI, while you somehow managed at the same time to utterly ignore the fact Windows 7 also requires at least an equally big adjustment because many (but of course not all) of the little utility applications that come with the OS, after years of neglect, will now suddenly have a ribbon GUI.

http://www.istartedsomething.com/20080322/ribbon-in-windows-7-appli...

http://wpfwonderland.wordpress.com/2008/10/30/ribbons-ribbons-every...

The only apparent reason for Microsoft to proliferate the ribbon UI and thereby annoy its userbase is this one:

http://weblogs.asp.net/fbouma/archive/2008/07/20/the-evil-of-the-of...

Reply Score: 4

google_ninja Member since:
2006-02-05

No. I took a potshot at the way that a small vocal segment of the linux community will recommend switching to linux to someone who doesn't use it, even when that recommendation makes no sense.

I have no problems with KDE4. It is one of the only DMs at the moment with a real sense of vision in the linux world, and is a head and shoulders above the rest of them when it comes to what is going on under the hood.

But I wasn't talking about KDE4, I was talking about the different segments of computer users who talk in places like this, and what my guess as to their reactions over the windows dock will be.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Disaster waiting to happen
by cyclops on Wed 19th Nov 2008 00:03 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Disaster waiting to happen"
cyclops Member since:
2006-03-12

Stop trolling every windows story lemur. This had nothing to do with linux. I'm sort of tired of talking the same talk with you again and again over this. This site is not called linux news, it is called osnews.

seriously, im glad you like linux. have fun with it. if you really thought it was any good, you wouldn't feel the burning need to justify your use of it by trash talking everything else all the time.


Its not my thread. This is OSNEWS. Firstly don't be such a hypocrite serious case of pot calling the kettle black.

You said I don't post so much any more I don't because Linux won technically...and nothing changed. I used to post about Vista...and it was worse than I could ever imagine. I made a statement before the release that we would all be using Vista, but two years later I've been proved wrong. The numbers creep up slowly a percent a month but nobody chooses it.

Now here is the crunch why I am here looking at damn windows articles. Interoperability, I'm getting increasing nervous of lock-in cloud computing; sharpoint; silverlight I might use Linux but Microsoft is a Monopoly, hell I have gone days this year at best without having used XP; 2000; or 98(not a lot of Vista)

Although next time I see you in a Linux; GNU; GPL; BSD etc thread I'll refresh your memory on this thread.

PS. I always find it funny when Vista incapable users like yourself get into the GPL vs BSD threads. I wonder what scares you about GPL ;)

Reply Score: 2

RE: Disaster waiting to happen
by leech on Tue 18th Nov 2008 02:23 UTC in reply to "Disaster waiting to happen"
leech Member since:
2006-01-10

Linux users will cite it as yet another reason that people should switch to linux, glossing over all the massive interface changes people would have to get used to.


Well, the really funny thing is that Microsoft themselves have always tried to play the "Don't switch to Linux, the interface is completely different and you'd have to retrain everyone!" They did the same crap for Office vs. OpenOffice.org.

Then what do they do? Release Vista and Office 2007, which both have enough changes in them that anyone used to XP would be completely confused. Not to mention that OpenOffice.org is much closer to Office 2003 than Office 2007 is. So much for retraining people.

I don't think I've ever read a Linux user say anything about "Oh, you should switch to Linux instead of Vista, because they changed the interface too much." That would be pretty retarded, considering it really IS more of a change to go to a Gnome / KDE / XFCE desktop than it is to go to Vista.

I just tell people to switch to Linux so you don't have to bow down to the Microsoft Emperor.

There are far too many people that just feel overwhelmed at Microsoft's iron hand in the way they 'license' their software out. So they are switching to alternatives, whether Linux or Apple based.

I really wish there would be 4 or 5 different contenders. Unfortunately the BSDs and Solaris just don't have the driver support that Linux does. Even Mac OS X doesn't have the hard ware support that it should. If we could only get all the commercial houses to program for the three major platforms, then the PC world would be a better place. That's right, I said it. A MAC IS A PC!!! Take that, you damned Apple ads! Personal Computer does not equal a Microsoft Computer!

Reply Score: 3

v Comment by daedalus8
by daedalus8 on Mon 17th Nov 2008 19:44 UTC
RE: Comment by daedalus8
by joen on Tue 18th Nov 2008 14:31 UTC in reply to "Comment by daedalus8"
joen Member since:
2006-03-31

And thank you for your useless post stating you don't want to read articles about 7 yet still opening said articles and even taking the effort of replying to one.
Dumbass.

Reply Score: 1

v *yawn*
by MysterMask on Mon 17th Nov 2008 21:25 UTC
Vista2 - Whatever!?
by cyclops on Mon 17th Nov 2008 23:43 UTC
cyclops
Member since:
2006-03-12

I must be missing something. At best this feels like a gnome upgrade...or some small 3rd party widget/driver.

I know this is a early release...but Vista was literally RTM 2 year ago.

Even as a Linux user Vista 2 is likely to affect me, if only for cheap touchscreen monitors in 6 years time.

Reply Score: 3

patrickballeux
Member since:
2008-11-17

I am still wondering is that new Windows 7 will be as great as everybody talks about...

I remember the pre-Vista days, when everybody was talking about Longhorn. It was supposed to be a revolution in operating system land. And what we got was barely "Wow!" (Remember the ad?).

I feel like history is repeating itself, ...again... "Windows Vista will be great because it will do this, it will do that..." And in the end, only a few features made it and the problems were so annoying that we forgot about the "new" features to only see the annoyances.

And don't say to me that all new releases of an OS are always "buggy". When I buy a new car, I expect it to work. It's a same for an OS. There can be a little fix to apply, but not a whole update because it is not stable enough, it has performance issues...

I hope Microsoft will get it right this time (again) with Windows 7, but for each Windows version, it is the same issues popping again and again: Stability, performance, simplicity.

Explain to me why I need a new computer for each Windows version? I would understand for a new version of Photoshop, Games or Autocad, but the operating system?

Is Windows 7 simply a Service Pack of Vista? Let's hope for the best but face it: If Windows 7 does not meet users expectations, Marketing teams will have to work double-shift!

You know, when you have to prove that your product is not that bad, it means that your product's quality is not that good.

My 2 cents

Edited 2008-11-18 02:36 UTC

Reply Score: 4

modmans2ndcoming Member since:
2005-11-09

What vista is and what Longhorn was are two very different systems.

Longhorn was dumped 2 years in and the next windows project was rebooted.

Vista as a project was run like crap and it will only be remembered for the huge change in code structure and security which allowed Windows 7 to have a functional pre-release 18 months after vista was released. Windows 7 will be MS' OS X. It is that good.

Reply Score: 3

Alleister Member since:
2006-05-29

I don't think so. OS X was Apples... er... OS X because they took the chance to make fundamental changes and fell back to emulation for compatibility.
Windows 7 won't do that, so they continue to drag along conceptual mistakes and weaknesses from much earlier versions.

They would have to have hurt compatibility *badly* if they want to unsuck Windows and it doesn't look like they are willing to do that.

The Registry is an example for that. They can't get rid of it if they aren't willing to sacrifice compatibility with 90% of Existing Windows Apps, yet they can't turn Windows into something less painful when they drag that source of problems along.

They should have made more drastic changes much earlier and they should have forced developers into some common sense earlier by encouraging an culture of secure use and non admin users.

Putting a pretty Windows 7 theme on Vista won't make any significant difference.

Reply Score: 2

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

The Registry is an example for that. They can't get rid of it if they aren't willing to sacrifice compatibility with 90% of Existing Windows Apps, yet they can't turn Windows into something less painful when they drag that source of problems along.


The registry? What's that? Oh, you mean that breaking point in XP and earlier versions of Windows that got nullified in Vista by virtualising and shadow-copying it per user.

Just checking.

Reply Score: 3

Alleister Member since:
2006-05-29

Which does prevent the user from having to search through their shadow copies of the registry to solve weird problems of their apps which also don't leave behind a mess when they leave?

Just checking.

If i have a problem with a linux app, i know where i can find all its config files and all i have to do is delete ~/.appname and restart it. If i have such a problem on windows (and i had enough) i have a vague idea where the registry keys are and how i could solve that problem. That is a question of established philosophies and culture and it is not going to get ever fixed as long as that is the way to do things on windows so it should just vanish.

Reply Score: 3

modmans2ndcoming Member since:
2005-11-09

Windows 7 is not just a new theme for vista, but thanks for playing anyway.

The Registry is not an actual problem anymore. I don't think you have noticed, but the Registry has grown up quite a bit since windows 95. In windows 7 they are adding even more functionality to make the Registry even better. There will not be a service that will purge the registry of old and useless information.

Reply Score: 2

Windows 7 Homegroup
by lemur2 on Tue 18th Nov 2008 05:17 UTC
lemur2
Member since:
2007-02-17

I'm fairly sure that the passage of time will reveal Homegroup as just another attempt at further lock-in. Homegroup will probably prove to be way to prevent Windows 7 machines talking with machines using any other OS.

HomeGroup is workgroup networking, but this time it's personal. It lets you easily link Windows 7 computers on your home network to share pictures, music, videos, documents and devices such as a printer.

Homegroup is the most discussed new feature of the revamped Networking and Sharing Center in Windows 7. It is designed exclusively for home networks and won't appear if it's a work or public network. In order to setup a HomeGroup, a user's Network Location needs to be set as "Home" in the Network and Sharing Center.

You get a significant amount of control with Homegroup; when you create a Homegroup, you specify which files, folders and devices you want to share, and create a password so that only people with that password can join the Homegroup. This way nobody, not even a friend, can hop on to your laptop and access your files or folders in Homegroup.


The probable aim in that is to make it so that if a consumer has one Windows 7 machine, then in order to have any functional LAN networking then ALL of that household's machines will have to be Windows 7.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Windows 7 Homegroup
by PlatformAgnostic on Tue 18th Nov 2008 05:55 UTC in reply to "Windows 7 Homegroup"
PlatformAgnostic Member since:
2006-01-02

Yes, homegroup is designed to make Windows 7 computers work well with other Windows 7 PCs. I don't see how this is particularly evil, though. You can still do standard SMB filesharing with everyone else.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Windows 7 Homegroup
by lemur2 on Tue 18th Nov 2008 09:08 UTC in reply to "RE: Windows 7 Homegroup"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

Yes, homegroup is designed to make Windows 7 computers work well with other Windows 7 PCs. I don't see how this is particularly evil, though. You can still do standard SMB filesharing with everyone else.


Can you?

Windows Vista introduced a regression where Windows Vista client machines no longer worked properly with Samba servers (or older versions of Windows server, for that matter). The Internet is awash with complaints from people about how their NAS devices "no longer work with Vista".

I was postulating more of the same with Windows 7 and Homegroup. "A non-Windows device on your home LAN? ... forget it buddy, and welcome to the all-new extra improved network lock-outs in Windows 7. We do trust you will enjoy upgrading all your systems. Muuuuhahahahahaha".

Edited 2008-11-18 09:09 UTC

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: Windows 7 Homegroup
by PlatformAgnostic on Tue 18th Nov 2008 09:25 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Windows 7 Homegroup"
PlatformAgnostic Member since:
2006-01-02

That change was made to improve security. All versions of Windows Server since 2000 SP3 support the newer NTLM and Samba supports it too. Are you saying that Microsoft is evil for deprecating insecure protocols?

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Windows 7 Homegroup
by lemur2 on Tue 18th Nov 2008 13:32 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Windows 7 Homegroup"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

That change was made to improve security. All versions of Windows Server since 2000 SP3 support the newer NTLM and Samba supports it too. Are you saying that Microsoft is evil for deprecating insecure protocols?


ROFLMAO.

Windows? Secure protocols?

Thats a good one. I'll have to remember that one.

Reply Score: 4

Page 2
by spiderman on Tue 18th Nov 2008 09:05 UTC
spiderman
Member since:
2008-10-23

--> Page 2
Reason: Windows 7 no-news.
There is no news is this article. My opinion is that it should be on page 2. We currently have at least 1 or 2 articles about Windows 7 a week. One article every time someone talk about Windows 7 on the internet, even if there is no news. Windows 7 is not ready for the desktop, it is not even released. Some things need to be fixed before it's released. Let them work on it and post articles when there are news. Someone on the internet talking about Windows 7 is not news. Or maybe if you really want to talk about it put a sticky thread somewhere on the OSnews front page for discussions about Windows 7. My opinion is that there is no need to spam the main page with Windows 7 when it is not released and there is nothing new about it.

Reply Score: 4

Of the new "features"
by deathshadow on Tue 18th Nov 2008 15:24 UTC
deathshadow
Member since:
2005-07-12

"Libraries" looks to be the one to piss me off the most. Since it mentions files 'still residing in the same place' that's going to confuse users the same way as normal shortcuts, or the half-assed way MacOS has always handled drag and drop.

Worse, it looks to be an expansion upon the 'customized folder' nonsense that makes a great many folders on my computer completely useless (which I dug into the registry to rip out by the nerts). All I care about when looking at a file is the name, extension (honestly I find the "type" column equally useless) size, and date. That's it. That's all I need/want - and frankly that's all 99% of users probably really need.

It's just more bullshit overhauling of the UI that nobody asked for.

Same goes for the new taskbar. First thing I do in windows is turn off that stupid malfing 'group like windows' nonsense - though admittedly that works for me because I run the taskbar in portrait on the side display. Much like the Mac they are making it impossible to tell at a glance what exactly is actually running and making it take LONGER to switch between programs, or more specifically multiple windows in the same program quickly.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Of the new "features"
by PlatformAgnostic on Tue 18th Nov 2008 18:23 UTC in reply to "Of the new "features""
PlatformAgnostic Member since:
2006-01-02

I use your strategy as well. It works fine with Windows 7.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Of the new "features"
by Dave_K on Tue 18th Nov 2008 22:15 UTC in reply to "RE: Of the new "features""
Dave_K Member since:
2005-11-16

The new Windows 7 taskbar can't display the individual windows of an application, just one icon per running application.

As long as the Windows 7 taskbar is well implemented (something I wouldn't bet on), I'd be quite happy with it. I was quite happy with the RISC OS Iconbar and Mac OS Dock too. But I can see a lot of Windows "power users", with their own pet ways of working, being very upset about the mandatory change.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Of the new "features"
by PlatformAgnostic on Tue 18th Nov 2008 22:24 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Of the new "features""
PlatformAgnostic Member since:
2006-01-02

How can you be so sure of what the Windows 7 taskbar "can't do?" :-p

Reply Score: 2

Slow adoption - Economic downturn
by centos_user on Tue 18th Nov 2008 18:06 UTC
centos_user
Member since:
2008-11-16

It is going to be a hard sell when tech companies are cutting their workforce and the stock market is in the tank.

The last thing a company or really end users are going to worry aobut is a new operating system when they are unemployed and it cost $500 requiring high dollar hardware to run it...

Just my thoughts.

Reply Score: 1

modmans2ndcoming Member since:
2005-11-09

high dollar hardware?

Dude, The project lead on Windows 7 runs the OS on a 1 GHz Atom Processor with a gig of memory.

on top of that, I have sitting at my desk, a quad core intel machine with 4 gigs of memory and it cost me about 400 bucks to put together.

Reply Score: 2

UAC revision
by Hae-Yu on Tue 18th Nov 2008 21:19 UTC
Hae-Yu
Member since:
2006-01-12

UAC is a good idea, but the current plan is clumsy and the new plan waters down the protection.

This is the way I see UAC being most effective:

All system configuration options should be under the control panel or administrator tools. Both of these are admin-level environments. When I open the control panel or administrator tools, I am prompted but as long as I keep that cp or admin session open, I am not prompted again for actions/ tools opened from within those environments.

Once I close the CP or admin tools, I will need to reauthorize. Just like opening a new shell window with root access.

In this way, those performing multiple configuration actions aren't driven insane while changes outside those environments require per use permission.

Reply Score: 1