Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 17th Nov 2008 19:19 UTC, submitted by AdamW
Mandriva, Mandrake, Lycoris Thanks to the Mandriva Xfce volunteer development team, a community Xfce One edition of Mandriva Linux 2009 is now available for download from all official Mandriva mirrors. A list of download locations can be found on the Wiki page. This release gives you all the benefits of Mandriva Linux 2009 along with a fast and stable Xfce desktop.
Order by: Score:
v another distro!
by Adurbe on Mon 17th Nov 2008 20:46 UTC
RE: another distro!
by FunkyELF on Mon 17th Nov 2008 21:10 UTC in reply to "another distro!"
FunkyELF Member since:
2006-07-26

I say the more distros using xfce the better. Gnome seems so backwards to me and KDE is pretty ugly and bloated until 4.0 is usable.

Reply Score: 2

RE: another distro!
by AdamW on Mon 17th Nov 2008 21:54 UTC in reply to "another distro!"
AdamW Member since:
2005-07-06

It's not 'another distro', it's an extra community edition of Mandriva. There's a consistent demand for a Xfce version of One, so we collaborate with the (volunteer) Xfce maintainers to produce and distribute one.

Reply Score: 9

v RE[2]: another distro!
by Adurbe on Mon 17th Nov 2008 22:45 UTC in reply to "RE: another distro!"
RE[3]: another distro!
by AdamW on Tue 18th Nov 2008 00:16 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: another distro!"
AdamW Member since:
2005-07-06

http://wiki.mandriva.com/en/2009.0
http://wiki.mandriva.com/en/2009.0_Tour
http://wiki.mandriva.com/en/2009.0_Reviewers_Guide

...if you're really interested. But what exactly are you venting about? Does every operating system OSNews ever reports on have to be the single best OS ever that everyone in the world should be using? (And if so, shouldn't it only ever report on one OS?) I just don't get the tone of frustration in your posts...

Reply Score: 11

v RE[4]: another distro!
by Adurbe on Tue 18th Nov 2008 10:07 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: another distro!"
RE[5]: another distro!
by spiderman on Tue 18th Nov 2008 11:39 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: another distro!"
spiderman Member since:
2008-10-23

Ubuntu or opensuse? Quite different beasts if you ask me.
Mandriva has nothing to do with Ubuntu and little in common with opensuse.

For one thing, Mandriva is a desktop distro, maybe the best desktop distro out there. It is tuned for the desktop. It boots fast, and launches applications fast (because it has preload by default). It has the most intuitive and best configuration tools. The XFCE edition is very polished and is quite different. I like XFCE because I find it the most intuitive desktop out there. It is a lot easier than KDE or GNOME for me. Mandriva and XFCE is the perfect match for me.

This is a great release and I'm happy they talk about it here.
This is one article about a new realease of Mandriva in the middle of 100s of articles about Windows 7, which is not released.
I don't see what you are complaining about. Mandriva is one of the most advanced distros out there (I believe it is the most advanced distro for the desktop) and it has a lot of unique features and this release brings a lot of new ones. This is a big step forward in the field of desktop OS. Ubuntu is just debian testing with a new theme and some desktop apps installed by default.

The biggest feature of Mandriva 2009 is its speed in my opinion. Try it. It boots in less than 15 seconds on my desktop and applications launch immediately. Nothing to do with Ubuntu or Opensuse.

Reply Score: 3

RE[6]: another distro!
by Adurbe on Tue 18th Nov 2008 13:57 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: another distro!"
Adurbe Member since:
2005-07-06

I am aware Mandrivia is not a derivitive of opensuse nor ubuntu (it was a redhat spin-off back in the day but that doesnt really hold true anymore)

Ubuntu is more than just debian testing with open office, have you used th new network manager? THAT is (was) a new, unique feature.

Whats the comaprable feature in this release?

Please note im asking what is new in THIS release, NOT mandrivia in general

Is XFCE faster than a gnome install? they both run everything on the same gtk+ framework as far as I understand so in reality, where is this performace boost coming from? less memory usage of loading the panel?

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: another distro!
by spiderman on Tue 18th Nov 2008 15:57 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: another distro!"
spiderman Member since:
2008-10-23


Is XFCE faster than a gnome install? they both run everything on the same gtk+ framework as far as I understand so in reality, where is this performace boost coming from? less memory usage of loading the panel?

The main advantage of having XFCE on a liveCD according to me is its size. It's not just XFCE but all the XFCE apps (mousepad, orage, thunar, etc...) are much smaller in size on the disk. It is important if you want to install Mandriva on a small drive or distribute big software on the media.
What is new is this release: LUKS support.
http://wiki.mandriva.com/en/XfceLive

I get your point though. Many distros fork Ubuntu, change the wall paper and call it a revolution.
The good thing with this Mandriva Xfce Live CD is that they don't fork Mandriva but work with them. They tune Xfce for a live CD and for Mandriva.

I believe this is news worthy that they added LUKS support and synced with Mandriva 2009. Much more news worthy than what we read about Windows 7. I mean, look at the other articles! Someone TALKED about Windows 7 on the internet! This makes 2 to 3 news a week. Maybe this release is too small for you, but at least SOMETHING was released!

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: another distro!
by AdamW on Tue 18th Nov 2008 17:24 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: another distro!"
AdamW Member since:
2005-07-06

"Ubuntu is more than just debian testing with open office, have you used th new network manager? THAT is (was) a new, unique feature."

Not...really. This is Ubuntu's list of new features in NetworkManager in 8.10:

* system wide settings (i.e., no need to log in in order to get a connection)
* management of 3G connections (GSM/CDMA)
* management of multiple active devices at once
* management of PPP and PPPOE connections
* management of devices with static IP configurations
* route management for devices

Mandriva's drakconnect and net_applet have supported all of those features, for years (except route management).

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: another distro!
by satan666 on Tue 18th Nov 2008 13:44 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: another distro!"
satan666 Member since:
2008-04-18

No, every operating system does not need to be the 'best' but it SHOULD have something unique about it.

If I release an Ubuntu distro with a black theme, does it deserve news space?

In my opinion, no.

Although what they have created was no doubt a labour of love, it appears to contain nothing groundbreaking, nothing even evolutionary


If I am mistaken about this, please, provide me examples and argue your case


I am being modded down because people disagree with the sentiment, thats fine, but noone has retorted with a reason why this distro is anything different from any other or why I should use it over ubuntu or opensuse (the distros I currently use)


You are modded down because you are ignorant. Ten years ago, yes that's right, ten years ago there wasn't an user friendly Linux desktop. Mandriva took RedHat (which was server oriented) and created this desktop oriented distro. Mandriva is not another distro simply because Mandriva was around long before
most of today's popular distros. Maybe you can tag "another distro" most of those distros that came after Mandriva, but Mandriva remains a trailblazer in Linux desktop.

Edited 2008-11-18 13:45 UTC

Reply Score: 4

RE[6]: another distro!
by Adurbe on Tue 18th Nov 2008 14:01 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: another distro!"
Adurbe Member since:
2005-07-06

ignorance can sometimes be a blessing as it avoids arrogance...

You are arguing that Mandrivia is a good distro. THIS I do not deny. In paticular in the historical sense

But how does this xfce community version further the cause?

As i have asked in a previous post,

Please provide examples

Reply Score: 0

RE[5]: another distro!
by StephenBeDoper on Tue 18th Nov 2008 13:56 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: another distro!"
StephenBeDoper Member since:
2005-07-06

but noone has retorted with a reason why this distro is anything different from any other or why I should use it over ubuntu or opensuse (the distros I currently use)


But by the same token, you haven't explained why the problem that you're railing against is actually a problem of any significance - aside from pointing out that it doesn't appeal to you personally.

Reply Score: 3

RE[6]: another distro!
by Adurbe on Tue 18th Nov 2008 14:10 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: another distro!"
Adurbe Member since:
2005-07-06

ok,

The problem as I see it is people are putting in work on re-inventing the wheel again and again. Slapping their own badge on it and calling it a 'new distro'

There are plenty of features which could have utilized their skill to further the cause of linux as a desktop alternative.

instead they have created something which is little more than a differnt desktop on the same core

nothing is new nor evolved.

That is my problem with these 'distros' in general

I will remind you my original rant (which I concede it was) was because it was not a news worthy story.

Which I still feel, it was not

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: another distro!
by Morty on Tue 18th Nov 2008 19:04 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: another distro!"
Morty Member since:
2005-07-06

The problem as I see it is people are putting in work on re-inventing the wheel again and again.


And this is where you are totally missing the target in this article. Combined with the way you express it, you get modded down.

There are no re-inventing of the wheel, since this is not a new distro. It's Mandriva Linux 2009. They have removed KDE and Gnome and put it on a Live CD, but it's exactly the same you would get if you install the same selection from Mandriva Linux 2009. It's not like Ubuntu, where every flavor are a separate distribution.

Edited 2008-11-18 19:04 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: another distro!
by StephenBeDoper on Wed 19th Nov 2008 00:39 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: another distro!"
StephenBeDoper Member since:
2005-07-06

ok,

The problem as I see it is people are putting in work on re-inventing the wheel again and again. Slapping their own badge on it and calling it a 'new distro'


But in this case it's not a new distro, Mandriva/Mandrake has been around for the better part of a decade. At most, it's a mod of an existing distro.

There are plenty of features which could have utilized their skill to further the cause of linux as a desktop alternative.


I see no indications that their goals were any more lofty than simply producing a version of Mandriva with XFCE installed by default/as the default DE.

It appears to have been an effort by the Mandriva community, so I don't see how it could detract from the development of Mandriva, let alone the cause of furthering linux as a desktop alternative.

instead they have created something which is little more than a differnt desktop on the same core

nothing is new nor evolved.


At worst, that would mean that their efforts were unnecessary. I don't see what the practical problem is, beyond an arguably-poor use of time.

I will remind you my original rant (which I concede it was) was because it was not a news worthy story.

Which I still feel, it was not


I haven't contended that point, as I happen to agree.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: another distro!
by Jokel on Tue 18th Nov 2008 18:49 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: another distro!"
Jokel Member since:
2006-06-01

Well I use Mandriva 2009 for various reasons. One of the most important reasons is the Mandriva Control Center. Here all important things are grouped together. Hardware, software, system settings, logs, boot settings, security settings, network and sharing - everything is managed from this center. The only Linux distribution that as a bit of the same ease of use is OpenSUSE.

In my opinion Ubuntu has a long way to go to even meet the ease of use Mandriva has. Kubuntu is a real KDE-disaster. It does not even comes close in the neigbourhood of the KDE implementations OpenSUSE or Mandriva have.

Hardware recognition is also one of the strong points of Mandriva. A lot of hardware that is not working under Ubuntu or other distro's, just work without any problem using Mandriva.

I tried a lot of distro's. I also tried Ubuntu, and although it is a nice distro, I fail to see why everybody is so exited about it. It is a reasonable, tough bit over-hyped, distro.

I use Mandriva 2009 on a day-today base. KDE 4.1.2 takes a little time to get used to, but after a while you do not want to get back to KDE 3.x. All applications and hardware (and even games) I need work without any problem, so I am satisfied user at this moment.

Reply Score: 1

RE: another distro!
by zenulator on Tue 18th Nov 2008 04:27 UTC in reply to "another distro!"
zenulator Member since:
2008-06-29

For some reason your comment bothers me. I don't see anything wrong with them putting out a XFCE release. It may only benefit a few users but it's the fact that they are willing to cater to those users that keeps open source projects alive. To me this is one more option I have and as a human being that lives in a free society I have the freedom to choose weather or not I want to use it. Linux has grown beyond the control of any one person or company and that's a beautiful thing. Large groups can try to shape its evolution but in the end anyone can make it into what they want and modify it to suit their needs.

Reply Score: 4

This does actually fill a need
by mounty on Tue 18th Nov 2008 00:51 UTC
mounty
Member since:
2005-12-12

Mandriva have put in a lot of work to automatic hardware detection. This is an ideal distribution for a non-techie. The only problem is the bloated KDE 4.1 desktop. It's much slower than Windows XP on say a 1 GHz processor and 256 MiB RAM; but with Xfce instead of KDE, it is highly competitive.

Reply Score: 1

UltraZelda64 Member since:
2006-12-05

The only problem is the bloated KDE 4.1 desktop. It's much slower than Windows XP on say a 1 GHz processor and 256 MiB RAM; but with Xfce instead of KDE, it is highly competitive.

Yeah, I've tried several KDE4 live CDs and noticed they all have one thing in common: they're slow as hell, to the point of locking up my machine with a 1.7GHz P4 and 256 megs of RAM. I thought, well, it could be that they're live CDs and maybe not set to use swap for whatever reason, badly laid out on disc, or maybe just KDE4 is not "ready" yet. After all, I have tried a few alpha and beta live CD demos.

I tried installing the kubuntu-desktop package after attempting an in-place upgrade to Ubuntu 8.10 to get a first-hand experience with KDE4, hoping for the best. The environment is at 4.1 or somewhere around there, and KDE were saying it should be mostly up to par with the original plans by then. Well... Ubuntu did do its upgrade and install KDE4 fine, but... the DE ran (err... crawled) like as POS. No lockups, but everything else remained.

Couple that with the fact that new versions of pretty much all the other major distros supporting KDE4 continue to lock up, give errors, and just run slow as hell... apparently I shouldn't have given KDE the chance. KDE4 is just a bloated desktop environment.

Disappointing that so many "big" distros are so quick to ditch KDE3, which is actually relatively light. Honestly, KDE4 reminds me of Vista in terms of its huge footprint. Hopefully Slackware releases one more with KDE3 before switching to the new release.

Edited 2008-11-18 01:24 UTC

Reply Score: 2

_txf_ Member since:
2008-03-17

I don't quite get why some people are finding kde 4.1 slow and bloated.

All my progs start really fast and are generally quite responsive. There used to be some serious slowness with nvidia but the latest beta has nearly completely removed those problems...

A couple of things are still really slow i.e. nepomuk but generally don't interfere.

Reply Score: 3

AdamW Member since:
2005-07-06

Depends how much memory you have. If you test with 256MB as the guy above did, you'll see a noticeable difference; sitting at a desktop with KDE 4 takes around 250MB of RAM, while with GNOME it's about 150 and Xfce about 160 (yes, those numbers are right, in my tests at least). If you have 512MB or 1GB, that won't make much difference.

Reply Score: 3

_txf_ Member since:
2008-03-17

But here's the thing... even xfce to a certain degree is bloating on 256Mb seeing as it only leaves 100Mb free. On 256Mb I'm hesitant to recommend even a full kde3 session.

If you prune things down then it will run fine (on 256 Mb you should Expect to need pruning on any environment minus those that are geared as lightweight)

Reply Score: 2

lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

But here's the thing... even xfce to a certain degree is bloating on 256Mb seeing as it only leaves 100Mb free. On 256Mb I'm hesitant to recommend even a full kde3 session. If you prune things down then it will run fine (on 256 Mb you should Expect to need pruning on any environment minus those that are geared as lightweight)


XFCE is light enough to install on minimal hardware, especially as you say if you prune things down a bit.

If you want really snappy performance on minimal or older hardware, try installing Xubuntu ... and then from the base install change the desktop to the even-lighter LXDE.

$ apt-get install lxde-desktop

... following your Xubuntu install. On the next boot, change the default session to LXDE instead of Xubuntu.

http://lxde.org/

This will run very snappily even on minimal harware, yet installing it following Xubuntu still gives you an Ubuntu 8.10 base to your system.

Or you could just get LXDE/Ubuntu from here: http://ubuntulite.tuxfamily.org/?q=node/2
... but that site doesn't seem to have caught up with Ubuntu 8.10 as yet.

I hope this helps. Good luck.

Edited 2008-11-18 03:19 UTC

Reply Score: 3

_txf_ Member since:
2008-03-17

Personally, I like "bloat" and my computer can handle "bloat". What I take issue is others with minimum spec computers complaining that kde etc is bloated. It isn't for a normal computer, nor is it if you prune it down...so basically what I'm saying is that I don't find kde4 "bloated".

Reply Score: 4

lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

Personally, I like "bloat" and my computer can handle "bloat". What I take issue is others with minimum spec computers complaining that kde etc is bloated. It isn't for a normal computer, nor is it if you prune it down...so basically what I'm saying is that I don't find kde4 "bloated".


Hear hear. KDE4 somehow manages to cop a lot of flack for being slow and bloated considering that it is actually the fastest desktop of any with comparable features.

However, it is fair to say that there are systems, even ones that you can buy right now, today, for which KDE4 is a bit too comprehensive. Syetms such as netbooks with 512MB RAM, only 8GB of SSD, and an under-powered GPU.

http://products.liliputing.com/products/?id=207

KDE4 will work on such a system, but it will be sluggish no doubt.

Even though KDE 4.1 is arguably better for a small screen size (because of the re-sizeable dialog boxes), nevertheless it is a bit sluggish on such systems because the GPU isn't all that capable.

XFCE or LXDE are more suited to such a system.

KDE 4.1 is more suited to a full desktop system equipped with resources to handle it just as Gnome is).

This may change with KDE 4.2, which is reputed to be significantly faster than KDE 4.1.

Reply Score: 5

h3rman Member since:
2006-08-09

But here's the thing... even xfce to a certain degree is bloating on 256Mb seeing as it only leaves 100Mb free. On 256Mb I'm hesitant to recommend even a full kde3 session.


A good operating system will use RAM as efficiently as it can. If that means filling it all up, it's good. Empty RAM is wasted RAM. The question is not, how much RAM can an OS + XFCE fill up, but: from what amount of RAM does it start moving bits to the swap partition, and start coming to a crawl. In that respect, a "vanilla" XFCE really does need less RAM than Gnome or KDE.

Reply Score: 2

sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

Here's the deal with "light" desktops. They're only really light until you fire up browser and office software. At that point the memory requirements of those apps can absolutely overwhelm anything saved by the "light" desktop. It *can* work. But care must be taken in the selection of applications. The goal is to minimize *unshared* memory. (The DamnSmall Linux guys refine this technique to an art form.) And leveraging apps from a minimum number of DE sources which share as much with xfce as possible is essential to retaining as much of xfce's memory efficiency as possible which doing actual work.

If xfce had a browser which used the xfce libs and a webkit, or less preferably, a gecko backend, and an xfce email client, and xfce office suite, that would be ideal. Unfortunately, it does not. So the next best thing is to use Gnome infrastructure to fill in the gaps. Gnome and xfce share enough that using Epiphany and Evolution is a win over using Firefox and Thunderbird. Here, "top" is your friend. Look at RSS and subtract "Shared" from it as a (rather rough) measurement of the true cost of the app.

I have been trying out xfce again for the last day or so, and have ended up with the default Xubuntu-desktop plus:

Epiphany
Evolution for email (Orage for other PIM functions)
Abiword
Gnumeric
Totem

It's seems a substantial win, memory-wise. And I love clicking the "Terminal" icon and having an *instant* prompt... every time.

I do wish that xfce would do just a little more with drag'n'drop, though. It would be nice to be able to drag apps from the menus to the panel to create launchers. Other than that I feel like xfce has implemented pretty much the features of Gnome that I really need, and I don't feel deprived while using it.

Edited 2008-11-18 16:54 UTC

Reply Score: 2

lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

I tried installing the kubuntu-desktop package after attempting an in-place upgrade to Ubuntu 8.10 to get a first-hand experience with KDE4, hoping for the best. The environment is at 4.1 or somewhere around there, and KDE were saying it should be mostly up to par with the original plans by then. Well... Ubuntu did do its upgrade and install KDE4 fine, but... the DE ran (err... crawled) like as POS. No lockups, but everything else remained.

Couple that with the fact that new versions of pretty much all the other major distros supporting KDE4 continue to lock up, give errors, and just run slow as hell... apparently I shouldn't have given KDE the chance. KDE4 is just a bloated desktop environment.


Do you have a Nvidia video card by any chance?

http://techbase.kde.org/Schedules/Is_KDE_4.1_for_you%3F#Graphic...

If you are affected by this nvidia 2D driver perfomance bug, then KDE 4 will be horribly slow for you ... no matter what distribution.

Unique amongst Linux desktops, KDE 4 uses the GPU to accelerate the desktop. This works absolutely fine, and makes KDE 4 the fastest Linux desktop ... unless your graphics driver is broken like Nvidia's is.

This is a nvidia driver bug, not a KDE 4 bug nor a Linux distribution bug.

Honestly, KDE4 reminds me of Vista in terms of its huge footprint.


You need to check facts before you post.

http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2007/12/14/kde-uses-les...

http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/3138

Edited 2008-11-18 04:26 UTC

Reply Score: 4

Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

they're slow as hell, to the point of locking up my machine with a 1.7GHz P4 and 256 megs of RAM.


Get more RAM? Seriously.

KDE4 (Kubuntu) does run very snappy on my Compaq Presario (1.7Ghz, Code Duo, 1Gb RAM) and KWin sure as hell handles eye-candy more stable than Compiz.
I dont know what this "slow and locks up" is about. It sure is helluva faster than Vista ever was on this laptop and I havent had it lock up. Granted, KDE4 is still rough around the edges but it's good enough for me to use every day at work.

Reply Score: 3

RE: This does actually fill a need
by lemur2 on Tue 18th Nov 2008 02:32 UTC in reply to "This does actually fill a need"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

Mandriva have put in a lot of work to automatic hardware detection. This is an ideal distribution for a non-techie. The only problem is the bloated KDE 4.1 desktop. It's much slower than Windows XP on say a 1 GHz processor and 256 MiB RAM; but with Xfce instead of KDE, it is highly competitive.


Au contraire, KDE 4.1 is the fastest desktop ... on suitable hardware.

There is a severe Nvidia bug in their binary driver for Linux that causes Xrender to be many times SLOWER than software graphics rendering (as used by all other Linux desktops). KDE 4.1 uses either the Xrender or OpenGL APIs to allow the GPU to render the desktop. For any graphics card and driver, other than Nvidia card using Nvidia's binary driver for Linux, KDE 4.1 renders many times FASTER than any other non-accelerated desktop.

Mandriva One 2009.0 is arguably the best distribution to use for netbooks. It supports most netbook hardware out of the box.

Having said that ... KDE 4.1 performance on netbooks is a bit pedestrian. The Intel GMA graphics hardware is barely accelerated at all. So the stock Mandriva install is uninspiring on a netbbok.

I am currently using Xubuntu on my MSI Wind U100. This distribution has three problems:

(1) The RTL8178SE miniwifi-card of the MSI Wind U100 has no native Linux driver in Xubuntu 8.10. The OEM is working on it, but their driver is still in development and has not made it into the Xubuntu 8.10 version of the kernel. One has to go through some extra steps to get the wifi working correctly. http://code.google.com/p/msi-wind-linux/

(2) The bluetooth stack for the Intrepid series of distributions is broken. The downstream developer apparently has thrown a wobbly about letting users enter their own PIN. One has to take special steps to correct this.

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/bluez-utils/+bug/274950
https://launchpad.net/~bluetooth/+archive

(3) XFCE includes some large dialog boxes which do not fit properly on a netbook reduced screen size. This is really just an annoyance.

I am hopeful that, given Mandriva's attention to the netbook scene, that at least the first two of these is corrected by this release of Mandriva 2009.0 XFCE.

If so, this release will have the best out-of-the-box support for the MSI Wind U100 of any Linux distribution to date.

XFCE is a farily good fit for netbooks (apart from the odd over-large dialog box), it is lightweight enough yet powerful enough also. XFCE also has no Mono dependencies. I'm personally downloading this Mandriva 2009.0 XFCE release right now to try it out on my MSI Wind U100 netbook.

Edited 2008-11-18 02:40 UTC

Reply Score: 5

mounty Member since:
2005-12-12

Au contraire, KDE 4.1 is the fastest desktop ... on suitable hardware.

Rather than au contraire, I think you mean however.

Reply Score: 1

lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

Au contraire, KDE 4.1 is the fastest desktop ... on suitable hardware. Rather than au contraire, I think you mean however.


Actually, no. I actually meant "au contraire", which means "quite the opposite".

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/au_contraire

The claim was this:
The only problem is the bloated KDE 4.1 desktop. It's much slower than Windows XP on say a 1 GHz processor and 256 MiB RAM


KDE 4.1 desktop is in fact faster than Windows XP ... on hardware which has a graphics GPU with a working 2D driver for Linux.

KDE 4.1 uses the GPU to accelerate the rendering of the desktop graphics. Windows XP doesn't, it uses software to render the desktop graphics.

Of course, on systems where there is a bug in the 2D graphics driver that makes the GPU render many times SLOWER than software rendering, KDE 4.1 won't work at all well on such a system, and this graphics bug could give people the mistaken impression that KDE 4.1 is slow and bloated.

Edited 2008-11-18 05:56 UTC

Reply Score: 3

mounty Member since:
2005-12-12

I have run Mandriva + KDE 4.1 and MS Windows XP SP2 on the same machine, of the specification stated above (P4 11 GHz, 256 MiB) and I assure you that Mandriva is significantly slower and less responsive.

Reply Score: 1

lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

I have run Mandriva + KDE 4.1 and MS Windows XP SP2 on the same machine, of the specification stated above (P4 11 GHz, 256 MiB) and I assure you that Mandriva is significantly slower and less responsive.


I have run Mandriva + KDE 4.1 and MS Windows XP SP2 on the same machine, and I assure you that XP SP2 is significantly slower and less responsive.

It heavily depends on the machine, I would suggest.

http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2008/09/on-kde4-performance.html

If KDE 4.1 is too heavy for your machine, and/or the machine does not have a correct GPU+linux driver for working 2D graphics acceleration under X11, then use either Mandriva + XFCE or Mandriva + LXDE to get better-than-XP performance.

Reply Score: 2

sigzero Member since:
2006-01-03

And? KDE 4.1 is fugly. I had to turn off the "flash" to make it usable.

Reply Score: 2

AdamW Member since:
2005-07-06

"There is a severe Nvidia bug in their binary driver for Linux that causes Xrender to be many times SLOWER than software graphics rendering (as used by all other Linux desktops). KDE 4.1 uses either the Xrender or OpenGL APIs to allow the GPU to render the desktop. For any graphics card and driver, other than Nvidia card using Nvidia's binary driver for Linux, KDE 4.1 renders many times FASTER than any other non-accelerated desktop."

This mostly doesn't really affect Mandriva 2009. We added a hack to apply the nvidia-settings tweaks that fix it on most hardware, out of the box.

Reply Score: 5

lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

"There is a severe Nvidia bug in their binary driver for Linux that causes Xrender to be many times SLOWER than software graphics rendering (as used by all other Linux desktops). KDE 4.1 uses either the Xrender or OpenGL APIs to allow the GPU to render the desktop. For any graphics card and driver, other than Nvidia card using Nvidia's binary driver for Linux, KDE 4.1 renders many times FASTER than any other non-accelerated desktop."

This mostly doesn't really affect Mandriva 2009. We added a hack to apply the nvidia-settings tweaks that fix it on most hardware, out of the box.


Very good move. Without doing that there would have been all sorts of reports all over the Internet that Mandriva 2009.0 was "slow and buggy" because of the Nvidia bug.

As it is ... you just don't hear very much about it any more as far as reviews go. That means the naysayers have had to shut up and go all quite ...

Reply Score: 3

DeadFishMan Member since:
2006-01-09

"There is a severe Nvidia bug in their binary driver for Linux that causes Xrender to be many times SLOWER than software graphics rendering (as used by all other Linux desktops). KDE 4.1 uses either the Xrender or OpenGL APIs to allow the GPU to render the desktop. For any graphics card and driver, other than Nvidia card using Nvidia's binary driver for Linux, KDE 4.1 renders many times FASTER than any other non-accelerated desktop."

This mostly doesn't really affect Mandriva 2009. We added a hack to apply the nvidia-settings tweaks that fix it on most hardware, out of the box.


If that is true, then I will give it a spin as soon as I have a chance. While I was generally impressed with KDE 4.1 - based on the looks, still don't like some of the regressions - when I played with it on Debian Experimental, I was also affected by the infamous nVidia driver bug and therefore the whole experience left a bad taste in my mouth.

And I really like the default KDE 4 look of the latest iterations of both Mandriva and SUSE offerings.

Reply Score: 2

lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

> While I was generally impressed with KDE 4.1 - based on the looks, still don't like some of the regressions

If you could be a little more specific here, perhaps I can help.

For example, many people do not like the Kickoff menu, either in the new mode or in the "classic" mode. If you are in this group, I might suggest you try the Lancelot menu instead.

http://lancelot.fomentgroup.org/main

http://ivan.fomentgroup.org/blog/2007/10/27/lancelot-revealed/

This alternative menu for KDE4 is actually quite nice.

For any KDE applications that are not yet ready for KDE4, you can always run the KDE3 version. Most distributions will ship KDE this way.

So ... what exactly are the remaining "regressions" in your view?

http://ourlan.homelinux.net/img/?Qwd=./images&Qiv=name&Qis=M

Edited 2008-11-18 11:44 UTC

Reply Score: 3

AdamW Member since:
2005-07-06

It's true, but then it'd probably be easier for you just to apply the fixes yourself, it's not actually that hard:

http://userbase.kde.org/GPU-Performance

Reply Score: 2

AdamW Member since:
2005-07-06

"Having said that ... KDE 4.1 performance on netbooks is a bit pedestrian. The Intel GMA graphics hardware is barely accelerated at all. So the stock Mandriva install is uninspiring on a netbbok."

There isn't really a 'stock Mandriva install' in this case. One KDE and One GNOME are equally 'premier' editions, and we'd probably recommend GNOME rather than KDE for netbooks. If you install Free or Powerpack on a netbook (one for which we have a detection heuristic, anyway), it will default to GNOME rather than KDE.

We mostly actually recommend LXDE (as mentioned in later comments) on netbooks. 'urpmi task-lxde' will install it on any Mandriva 2009 system. We did have a plan to do a special 'netbook edition' USB image based on LXDE, but I'm not sure we're going to have the time to get that done - it still may happen, though.

Reply Score: 3

lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

We mostly actually recommend LXDE (as mentioned in later comments) on netbooks. 'urpmi task-lxde' will install it on any Mandriva 2009 system. We did have a plan to do a special 'netbook edition' USB image based on LXDE, but I'm not sure we're going to have the time to get that done - it still may happen, though.


Do you have a USB image of any Mandriva 2009.0 system at all?

Netbooks don't have a CDROM drive. I have been using Unetbootin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNetbootin

to make various bootable USB images (overwriting my one USB stick each time) in order to trial various .iso LiveCDs.

Unetbootin works with Ubuntu variants.

I have just downloaded the .iso image of Mandriva One XFCE which is the topic of this thread, and ran Unetbootin with that .iso image to create an new bootable USB image. With Mandriva One 2009, however, it starts to boot but doesn't make it all the way. It stops with an error stating:

"Cannot run '/etc/init.d/rcS' : no such file or directory"

I'm fairly sure that this means that having loaded the kernel, Mandriva One is looking for the "rest of itself" on a CDROM drive which doesn't exist on the netbook.

Is there any way netbook owners can create a working bootable USB from a Mandriva One .iso LiveCD image?

Would it be possible to simply create a symbolic link named "cdrom" pointing to the correct place on the USB stick to work around this problem?

Netbooks are likely to be a significant part of Mandriva's target audience. It would be a shame to miss out because people couldn't get it booted.

http://forum.mandriva.com/viewtopic.php?t=71847

PS: hold the fort. Solution (work-around) may be here:

https://qa.mandriva.com/show_bug.cgi?id=34703#c10

Edited 2008-11-18 09:46 UTC

Reply Score: 4

AdamW Member since:
2005-07-06

unetbootin isn't really recommended for MDV; I'd rather suggest lordikc's technique:

http://lordikc.free.fr/wordpress/?page_id=334

that's a comprehensive guide to installing Mandriva with LXDE via USB on a netbook. In both English and French ;)

Reply Score: 2

lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

unetbootin isn't really recommended for MDV; I'd rather suggest lordikc's technique: http://lordikc.free.fr/wordpress/?page_id=334 that's a comprehensive guide to installing Mandriva with LXDE via USB on a netbook. In both English and French ;)


I found that site and tried it on the MSI Wind U100. My efforts got as far as the initial Mandriva One splash screen (which is further than the Unetbootin method got) and then died. I pressed escape ... only to see roughly the same message "underneath" the splash screen. The same (or near equivalent) thing had occurred just a little later in the boot sequence.

Still I have yet to achieve a successful boot for Mandriva One on the MSI Wind using a USB flash memory stick, after six tries using different methods that occurred to me.

No real help to be found here, either:
http://www.pendrivelinux.com/

I've given up and gone back to Xubuntu. Even with its failings, at least I could get Xubuntu 8.10 to run. I've fixed the wifi, and I have installed the ppa launchpad version of the bluetooth stack, so I am well on the way to getting everything working (after a bit of effort).

Sadly, I can't report anywhere near the same success with Mandriva One on my MSI Wind ... which is a crying shame because Mandriva normally works very well just about anywhere one tries it.

Edited 2008-11-18 22:27 UTC

Reply Score: 2

AdamW Member since:
2005-07-06

lemur2: that's a shame. It sounds like there may genuinely be some kind of kernel issue with the Wind, then. I'm not sure what, though. Have you filed a bug?

Reply Score: 2

lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

lemur2: that's a shame. It sounds like there may genuinely be some kind of kernel issue with the Wind, then. I'm not sure what, though. Have you filed a bug?


I've made progress here. In my "spares" box I found an old CD drive. I temporarily dismantled my USB external hard disk, disconnected the IDE interface and re-connected it to the spare CD drive IDE interface, burnt the XFCE Mandriva One LiveCD, popped it in to the spare CD drive, connected it via USB to the MSI Wind ... and away it went.

It was just booting from the USB flash drive that was a no-go.

So far, Mandriva One 2009.0 is the very first Linux distribution I have tried that has correctly detected the wifi chip on the MSI Wind U100 from first boot of the liveCD.

Hooray! Kudos to Mandriva.

I'm installing it now. I have yet to get to test the bluetooth, but so far, so good!

Edited 2008-11-19 11:05 UTC

Reply Score: 2

community KDE3 One edition?
by testerus on Tue 18th Nov 2008 10:35 UTC
testerus
Member since:
2005-07-06

Is there going to be a community KDE3 One edition of Mandriva Linux 2009? Or did the plan not manifest itself?

Reply Score: 1

RE: community KDE3 One edition?
by AdamW on Tue 18th Nov 2008 17:22 UTC in reply to "community KDE3 One edition?"
AdamW Member since:
2005-07-06

I believe it's still being worked on - I haven't heard that it's been cancelled. But honestly I've not had a huge ton of info on that project from the start. All I know is some people were/are working on it.

Reply Score: 2

In need of simplification
by zombie process on Tue 18th Nov 2008 14:04 UTC
zombie process
Member since:
2005-07-08

I've said this before, and I'm saying it again now - mandriva might actually make a dent in the ubuntu juggernaut if they simply made it easier to figure WTF to install if you really want "mandriva." They have too many options with a not-at-all-obvious tiering structure, including their pay-to-play stuff. In one word: simplify.

Reply Score: 3

RE: In need of simplification
by AdamW on Tue 18th Nov 2008 17:25 UTC in reply to "In need of simplification"
AdamW Member since:
2005-07-06

"I've said this before, and I'm saying it again now - mandriva might actually make a dent in the ubuntu juggernaut if they simply made it easier to figure WTF to install if you really want "mandriva." They have too many options with a not-at-all-obvious tiering structure, including their pay-to-play stuff. In one word: simplify."

If you could please join the forums and post that in the threads where people keep bugging me to put even MORE editions on the download page, that would be much appreciated. =)

Reply Score: 2

Problem is KDE 4
by perspectoff on Tue 18th Nov 2008 23:48 UTC
perspectoff
Member since:
2008-11-06

I have Kubuntu Intrepid ibex and Windows Home Premium on both Lenovo 3000 and Toshiba A205 laptops.

Kubuntu Intrepid Ibex blows Windows Vista out of the water for speed.

I have Windows XP, Kubuntu Hardy Heron, and Kubuntu Intrepid Ibex on separate partitions on a Toshiba A105 laptop.

Kubuntu Ibex is significantly faster than both Kubuntu Hardy Heron and Windows XP (Hardy Heron is marginally faster than Windows XP).

But Kubuntu Intrepid Ibex is randomly buggy (simple things from simple desktop settings to Kopete IM to Virtualbox to groupware), whereas Hardy Heron and XP are both rock stable.

The problem is KDE 4 is buggy, not slow. All distributions with KDE4 have the same problems.

KDE4 will be sorted out soon, though. Kubuntu Jaunty Jackalope, perhaps.

It's hard to get Windows XP anymore, so it's Kubuntu Hardy Heron for me.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Problem is KDE 4
by lemur2 on Wed 19th Nov 2008 01:43 UTC in reply to "Problem is KDE 4"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

I have Kubuntu Intrepid ibex and Windows Home Premium on both Lenovo 3000 and Toshiba A205 laptops. Kubuntu Intrepid Ibex blows Windows Vista out of the water for speed. I have Windows XP, Kubuntu Hardy Heron, and Kubuntu Intrepid Ibex on separate partitions on a Toshiba A105 laptop. Kubuntu Ibex is significantly faster than both Kubuntu Hardy Heron and Windows XP (Hardy Heron is marginally faster than Windows XP). But Kubuntu Intrepid Ibex is randomly buggy (simple things from simple desktop settings to Kopete IM to Virtualbox to groupware), whereas Hardy Heron and XP are both rock stable.


On each of my machines (numbering six), I have a similar experience of better speed using KDE4 in Intrepid Ibex, but I have not encountered any KDE4 bugs (apart from the icons in the system tray not being drawn correctly).

See the effect in the lower-right corner on this screenshot:
http://ourlan.homelinux.net/img/?Qwd=./images&Qiv=name&Qis=M

Apart from that one no-consequence KDE4 bug, the bugs I have otherwise encountered have all been common to the underlying Ubuntu Intrepid stack ... specifically in the bluetooth software, and the network manager.

Edited 2008-11-19 01:44 UTC

Reply Score: 2