Linked by David Adams on Thu 11th Dec 2008 00:14 UTC, submitted by jawbreaker
Humor A teacher in Austin, TX reprimanded a student for demonstrating Linux to his classmates and distributing free Linux CDs. She then goes on to contact Ken Starks of the HeliOS Project, who provided the CDs, and claim that "putting Linux on these machines is holding our kids back" and "No software is free and spreading that misconception is harmful". Although she claims to have used Linux herself in college, she feels that "putting on a carnival show for an operating system is not helping these children at all". On the HeliOS blog, Ken Starks hints that this may be more than just ignorance of the teacher's part.
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hahah
by poundsmack on Thu 11th Dec 2008 00:27 UTC
poundsmack
Member since:
2005-07-13

when i tried linux back in college i would have said the same thing. now its 7 years later... times change and software evolves. educate yourself lady before making such claims and acusations!

Reply Score: 9

RE: hahah
by ebasconp on Thu 11th Dec 2008 04:29 UTC in reply to "hahah"
ebasconp Member since:
2006-05-09

i wouldn't say that.

When I was in college, the blue screen of death was very common and the Linux robustness and stability were acknowledge as superior to the Windows 9x of such times.

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: hahah
by Bill Shooter of Bul on Thu 11th Dec 2008 23:41 UTC in reply to "RE: hahah"
Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

Yeah. I think we were in college at the same time period. The real thing that left me as a dual booter was the lack of a (Free)decent word processor/ spreadsheet back then. All of those reports needed formating, and the ability to read write MS office file formats.

I did get a copy of the free Word perfect for Linux. That worked pretty well, actually. But the fonts weren't very good. So I used it, but there were still other things that had no viable alternative to windows.

Reply Score: 1

RE: hahah
by evangs on Thu 11th Dec 2008 07:28 UTC in reply to "hahah"
evangs Member since:
2005-07-07

I've used Linux since 2000 with RH 7.3. It's come a long long way since then. Sure, I still hit it with a stick when it comes to content creation where I firmly believe Linux is behind OS X and even Windows, but that's a very specialized need.

Just for kicks, I installed Vista on my 1 1/2 year old laptop the other day. After installation, I spent hours downloading drivers for my Wifi, bluetooth, video card, sound card, etc. Plonked on Ubuntu x64 and everything (including suspend!) worked right outta the box.

This is 2008 people, not 1998. Linux has come a long way.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: hahah
by Panajev on Thu 11th Dec 2008 09:26 UTC in reply to "RE: hahah"
Panajev Member since:
2008-01-09

I wish I could say the same as you comparing KDE 4.1.x + Fedora 10 and Vista SP1 on this laptop...

Not that the former does not work, but the latter is much more of a breeze to use.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: hahah
by gustl on Thu 11th Dec 2008 09:37 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: hahah"
gustl Member since:
2006-01-19

Usability of Vista better than KDE4.1.x?

I beg to differ. KDE4.1.x is fast, stable has actually working virtual desktops, can be configured to look and feel as you like, and gets out of the way if you work with an application.

Vista is almost as good, but lacks working virtual desktops.
If you are no extensive user of virtual desktops, you will find that Vista is usable, if you depend on vitual desktops for managing open applications, Vista's usability is mediocre to bad.

Reply Score: 5

RE[4]: hahah
by essdeekay on Thu 11th Dec 2008 10:48 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: hahah"
essdeekay Member since:
2006-01-31

I'm steering clear of the Vista vs KDE4.1 debate but regarding Virtual Desktops - have you tried VDM on Vista?

It's up on CodePlex: http://www.codeplex.com/vdm

I'd be curious to know if it met your needs or not.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: hahah - vdm
by jabbotts on Thu 11th Dec 2008 12:39 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: hahah"
jabbotts Member since:
2007-09-06

How is it for managing seporation? The last virtual desktop addon I tried with XP had issues managing windows outside of the first desktop. Opening a second IE instance or url usually resulted in IE jumping desktops instead of opening two instances or opening the url in the original IE/desktop location.

True virtual desktops would be a big help in managing the number of applications I get open at a time. I'm still waiting for a win32/64 utility that really does it though.

Reply Score: 4

RE: hahah
by gustl on Thu 11th Dec 2008 08:26 UTC in reply to "hahah"
gustl Member since:
2006-01-19

The technical maturity is not even the point.

The point is the license. This "teacher" obviously thinks the Software is illegally distributed by the student. If she ever had "tried out" Linux, she must have stumbled across the GPL, Linux has been GPLed at a very early point in time. This lets me assume she never really "tried out" Linux, she maybe saw some other people use it in her college days.

As for "there is no such thing as free software". Oh my god is she behind times!

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: hahah - there is some truth
by jabbotts on Thu 11th Dec 2008 12:43 UTC in reply to "RE: hahah"
jabbotts Member since:
2007-09-06

FOSS comes at no financial cost but there is a cost in time that varies depending on what distribution you choose and the depth to which you decide to learn the distribution.

This educator, though, reminds me of a few teachers back in the day that truly believed students where stupid and the teacher always knew more (we watched that teacher reinstall DOS regularly rather than make the small config.sys adjustment we suggested).

Reply Score: 1

searly Member since:
2006-02-27

Cost in Time ??? Come on ... there is always time involved when working / administering computers ... yes with Windows too!

Anyway if there is one thing students / pupils have got, then it is time.

Reply Score: 4

jabbotts Member since:
2007-09-06

Absolutely, I don't think that is a negative attribute at all as any new knowledge costs time if not time and money. I only mention that the cost is time volunteered for learning the technology or unlearning the Windows way of doing everything.

It also shouldn't be seen as defending this de-educator as I hope the meeting with Helios, superior and subordinate goes very embarrassingly for that third listed attendee. There is nothing more dangerous in education than a close mind in a position of authority.

Reply Score: 3

Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

FOSS comes at no financial cost but there is a cost in time that varies depending on what distribution you choose and the depth to which you decide to learn the distribution.


I'm pretty sure that's not what she meant.

Reply Score: 3

RE: hahah
by ljgshkg on Thu 11th Dec 2008 21:42 UTC in reply to "hahah"
ljgshkg Member since:
2008-03-25

I'm opposite to you in some way. When I was in university a few years ago. I use Linux most the time. Not only because I want to get away from Microsoft, also because I can do my home work at home and then quickly port it over to school's solaris (if required).


Now, I uses Windows most the time. Not that I like it better, but I work on .NET stuff most the time, unfortunately.

Reply Score: 1

This hurts!
by CapEnt on Thu 11th Dec 2008 00:29 UTC
CapEnt
Member since:
2005-12-18

This is a world where Windows runs on virtually every computer and putting on a carnival show for an operating system is not helping these children at all.

This teacher got zero on her logic test.

Reply Score: 11

RE: This hurts!
by toblerone on Thu 11th Dec 2008 09:34 UTC in reply to "This hurts!"
toblerone Member since:
2008-12-11

Where is the logic error in above sentence?

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: This hurts!
by godDLL on Thu 11th Dec 2008 13:32 UTC in reply to "RE: This hurts!"
godDLL Member since:
2008-12-11

I wouldn't know. I didn't see any logic in the sentence to begin with. It reads fine, up until "carnival", then I get stranded.
Would you care going over that with me, please?

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: This hurts!
by james_parker on Thu 11th Dec 2008 18:15 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: This hurts!"
james_parker Member since:
2005-06-29

I wouldn't know. I didn't see any logic in the sentence to begin with. It reads fine, up until "carnival", then I get stranded.
Would you care going over that with me, please?


I suspect your problem with parsing is that you are interpreting "carnival" as a noun and "show" as a verb.

If you instead parse this such that "carnival" is an adjective and "show" is a noun, I think it will make more sense.

[edit: replaced "carnival" with "show" in the second instance]

Edited 2008-12-11 18:16 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: This hurts!
by toblerone on Fri 12th Dec 2008 10:51 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: This hurts!"
toblerone Member since:
2008-12-11

Ahh, now I understand your not-understanding! ;)

Reply Score: 1

Wow
by abraxas on Thu 11th Dec 2008 00:32 UTC
abraxas
Member since:
2005-07-07

All I can say is wow. I know Linux isn't as well known outside of the tech community as it is inside but even a cursory investigation into Linux would reveal how terribley wrong the teacher is. I had a similar experience a few years ago when the legal department of the company I worked for refused to allow us to use any GPL software saying that it is not free for commercial use. When I sent them an email containing the specific references in the GPL that state otherwise they just ignored me. The worst part about it is that the company themselves distributed GPL software.

Reply Score: 9

:)
by poundsmack on Thu 11th Dec 2008 00:42 UTC
poundsmack
Member since:
2005-07-13

I want to dress up in a giant plush penguin costume that has a big smile on its face and walk in with a 2 xannax and just offer them to get as a piece offering.

(alternate ending) penguin has a smiley face with fake blood dripping down from it. also he is wierlding a large blade

(alternet ending 2) just walk in and only saay "never more" regaurdless of her question or statement till all the sanity is gone... ;)

Reply Score: 4

RE: :)
by nalf38 on Thu 11th Dec 2008 09:15 UTC in reply to ":)"
nalf38 Member since:
2006-09-01

I love it.

Quoth the Penguin, "Nevermore."

Reply Score: 4

Not surprising
by AbuHassan on Thu 11th Dec 2008 00:43 UTC
AbuHassan
Member since:
2008-08-26

Before I left teaching and went back to coding for a living, I was constantly told by my head of faculty that teaching my kids about alternative operating systems and actively encouraging them to write code for alternative systems was "wrong and will not equip them with the skills required to get a job in the real world".

Sadly, that attitude is entrenched in most colleges of Further Education within the UK.

Reply Score: 6

RE: Not surprising
by kev009 on Thu 11th Dec 2008 03:24 UTC in reply to "Not surprising"
kev009 Member since:
2006-11-30

...and learning about most of the shit that these goons (and publishers) throw at us will help us get jobs -- or more importantly make contributions to society and be productive?

Sorry, but "education" is broken. It is nothing more than glorified daycare that limits people like me that wish to pursue learning about things like Linux, software development, computer science, and the mathematics and writing skills that are relevant to these areas.

Sadly, there seems to be a large disconnect between the decision makers and politicians, educators, and most importantly students. After all, we are the reason for education, not to give some "teacher" a cushy job.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Not surprising - manufacturing
by jabbotts on Thu 11th Dec 2008 13:51 UTC in reply to "RE: Not surprising"
jabbotts Member since:
2007-09-06

School is a manufacturing process; raw students in one side, processed students out the other end of the factory after a few "grades" of assembly lines.

What you need to do is find out if there is a school in your area following a more self guided approach to learning. There is a great highschool in this area that uses a self directed life long learning approach. Some students fall out of school like anywhere else but the ones who are interested in learning are well supported towards that by the teachers. It's a fantastic preparation for university where the separation between self directed learning and "the traditional program" is slightly greater than levels before that.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Not surprising
by Moredhas on Thu 11th Dec 2008 06:38 UTC in reply to "Not surprising"
Moredhas Member since:
2008-04-10

About four years ago, my IT teacher in high school (and this is in Australia, I think MS's grip on education was even worse than in the UK at the time), said I was an idiot to think Linux existed out there in the 'real world'; that Windows Server would be in every server room I ever entered, and I'd never encounter Linux outside of my own house. How wrong he was. First job in IT, working for an internet cafe, and most of the server machines are running Linux (though since the cafe caters to gamers, the clients are running Windows).

I feel somewhat blessed that this is my first IT job, for although my boss is a little under informed about software (she's a hardware person), she's far from pointy-haired and trusts the judgement of her employees in most cases. Our wholesaler charges like a wounded bull, and whenever we talk to Dell they jabber on trying to upsell, but I guess that's normal.

Edited 2008-12-11 06:40 UTC

Reply Score: 4

RE: Not surprising
by jabbotts on Thu 11th Dec 2008 12:48 UTC in reply to "Not surprising"
jabbotts Member since:
2007-09-06

School is about teaching brand names not transferable skills. Why teach a kid to use a hammer when you can just take the "early adopter" handout and teach them to only be able to use a Black & Decker #7 hammer.

I have met some really great teachers that understood how to promote self directed learning in students but I've also met a lot of the stereotypically traditional teachers that I wouldn't ever be able to call "educators" while keeping a strait face.

Never let school get in the way of an education.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Not surprising
by bert64 on Fri 12th Dec 2008 16:35 UTC in reply to "Not surprising"
bert64 Member since:
2007-04-23

Before I left teaching and went back to coding for a living, I was constantly told by my head of faculty that teaching my kids about alternative operating systems and actively encouraging them to write code for alternative systems was "wrong and will not equip them with the skills required to get a job in the real world".

Sadly, that attitude is entrenched in most colleges of Further Education within the UK.


Yes, and an insanely stupid attitude that is...

I learned wordperfect for dos in school, having left school i find that wordperfect for dos skills are not in high demand.
Now i never had dos at home, i had an amiga at home so it was necessary for me to learn what i was doing and how to translate the functions to another application... So because i learned a variety of different programs for performing the same tasks, i learned the ability to adapt to new applications and that has proven far more useful.

School computers are generally out of date anyway, and by the time these kids leave school and try to get a job whatever they used in school will be years out of date. If you teach the kids single specific applications, then you are just wasting your time, because even if those applications are still being used they will be newer versions which have major differences.

Teach them something useful, dont just pretend to.

Reply Score: 2

kids limited by teacher, not OS
by project_2501 on Thu 11th Dec 2008 00:45 UTC
project_2501
Member since:
2006-03-20

"is our kids learning"?

Reply Score: 3

ebasconp Member since:
2006-05-09

Exactly, the teacher's ignorance is far more "poisonous" than the "retrograde Linux"

Reply Score: 4

vikramsharma Member since:
2005-07-06

the kids is not learning

Reply Score: 2

atriq Member since:
2007-10-18

Oh, eye disagree; they very much is learning. I've herd a number of high school students talk in that manner. They're retention of English skills is excellent!

Edit: grammar correction ;)

Reply Score: 2

vikramsharma Member since:
2005-07-06

Gremmatical errors are common but so are the spalling mistakes ;) . Thanks for your comment, I had a really long day. You comment made me smile after such a hard day.

Reply Score: 3

Absurd
by cb_osn on Thu 11th Dec 2008 01:10 UTC
cb_osn
Member since:
2006-02-26

I'll be one of the first to criticize the various flavors of Linux for their many faults, but this is, quite frankly, absurd.

It's an epidemic in this country, not only among teachers, but also judges and other authority figures where "common knowledge" simply isn't sufficient anymore for being able to participate in the technology arena.

The fact that this teacher combines her ignorance with such audacity means that she probably shouldn't be educating anyone, regardless of subject.

Reply Score: 12

Lamest argument ever: ...
by Wowbagger on Thu 11th Dec 2008 01:19 UTC
Wowbagger
Member since:
2005-07-06

"The world is using Microsoft Windows, so we need to teach our pupils that".

Hmm, when I went to school the most sold computer on earth was the Commodore 64. I learned BASIC programming, and I can't tell you how much I'm using this every day at work.... NOT.

No matter what you use during your school time, computer technology advances so fast that unless you learn the fundamental principles of computing and principles of using applications in general, whatever you've learned will be useless. So, this is a completely invalid argument.

Basic computing principles can be taught with almost any computer provided it is using a fairly modern operating system.

Reply Score: 9

RE: Lamest argument ever: ...
by ari-free on Thu 11th Dec 2008 01:27 UTC in reply to "Lamest argument ever: ..."
ari-free Member since:
2007-01-22

but if you learn with an open system you are learning with a system that you can *understand* and it is that understanding that can help in the future.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Lamest argument ever: ...
by AbuHassan on Thu 11th Dec 2008 01:44 UTC in reply to "Lamest argument ever: ..."
AbuHassan Member since:
2008-08-26

I remember the "Head of IT" at my school in the late 80's telling my parents during "parents evening" that my obsession spending every free minute I had writing code for my Amiga 500 was "a waste of time" and that "his refusal to show any interest whatsoever in learning how to use Microsoft Works during class will cause him to have no future in the IT industry."*

I'll just check my bank balance again and smile at his false prophecy! ;)

*Yes, in the late 80's and early 90's "Information Technology" classes in the UK consisted of learning how to type letters in MS Works for DOS and using some obscure DTP package I forget the name of. Programming in any form was strictly off-syllabus!

I still pride myself on the Grade 'E' I received for 'GCSE IT' in 1993! lol

Reply Score: 9

RE[2]: Lamest argument ever: ...
by jbit on Thu 11th Dec 2008 10:54 UTC in reply to "RE: Lamest argument ever: ..."
jbit Member since:
2005-11-04

I don't think the schools I attended in UK had a single PC until about 1997 or so, everything was BBC Micros or Acorn Archimedes.
Most schools had the very good goal of teaching pupils "general skills" using the cheap, powerful and robust acorn systems... Rather than teaching them one specific program suite.

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: Lamest argument ever: ...
by memson on Thu 11th Dec 2008 15:46 UTC in reply to "RE: Lamest argument ever: ..."
memson Member since:
2006-01-01

*Yes, in the late 80's and early 90's "Information Technology" classes in the UK consisted of learning how to type letters in MS Works for DOS and using some obscure DTP package I forget the name of. Programming in any form was strictly off-syllabus!


No, no, no! Acorn Archimiedes were the computer of choice in most. PC's were as exotic as the Cray when I was learning IT in the late 80's and earlu 90's in the UK. I don't think my 6th form even had any non Acorn machines. It was all A300's, A400's, A5000's and such and a smattering of BBC B's.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Lamest argument ever: ...
by Vanders on Thu 11th Dec 2008 16:53 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Lamest argument ever: ..."
Vanders Member since:
2005-07-06

My primary school was all BBC B's & Masters. My secondary school was all RM Nimbus machines (Almost, but not quite, entirely unlike a PC). I never even bothered to look at the "IT" classes in the 6th form as I already knew they'd be worthless.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Lamest argument ever: ...
by Soulbender on Thu 11th Dec 2008 14:54 UTC in reply to "Lamest argument ever: ..."
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Hmm, when I went to school the most sold computer on earth was the Commodore 64


Our school had MicroBee. It had some Adventure clone and some sort of astronomy simulation called Kepler. it was "awesome". You can imagine the immense advantage that gave me later in life.
Also, we had ZX81's with the thermal printer. Man, it ruled. Hard.

Edited 2008-12-11 14:54 UTC

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: Lamest argument ever: ...
by sbergman27 on Thu 11th Dec 2008 15:13 UTC in reply to "RE: Lamest argument ever: ..."
sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

It had some Adventure clone and some sort of astronomy simulation called Kepler. it was "awesome". You can imagine the immense advantage that gave me later in life.

You haven't been eaten by any giant green snakes have you? That's something.

Reply Score: 4

Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

I can't remember any green snakes but I seem to recall that it had attacking bats. Then again, what cave crawler doesn't?

Reply Score: 4

public indoctrination, not education
by ari-free on Thu 11th Dec 2008 01:23 UTC
ari-free
Member since:
2007-01-22

reason #54632 to homeschool your kids.

Reply Score: 10

What a loonatic!!
by cmost on Thu 11th Dec 2008 01:25 UTC
cmost
Member since:
2006-07-16

This woman sounds like an arrogant lunatic! It's called "get the facts" (to borrow from one of Microsoft's conventions.) Don't harangue a student for doing something when you don't know what the hell you're talking about! I've experienced this sort of abject prejudice myself and I can say that some people don't want to know the truth!!!

Reply Score: 5

RE: What a loonatic!!
by DigitalAxis on Thu 11th Dec 2008 04:47 UTC in reply to "What a loonatic!!"
DigitalAxis Member since:
2005-08-28

She's trying to prepare her kids for a life of plugging numbers into Excel spreadsheets.

It's like treating the symptoms instead of the cause: You teach kids how to do things one way, and one way only, and it will likely never occur to them that there are other options. I don't mean in terms of Windows and Linux, I mean in general.

Reply Score: 4

Ridiculous...
by suryad on Thu 11th Dec 2008 01:29 UTC
suryad
Member since:
2005-07-09

that about sums it up. I am very much interested in seeing what the teacher responds after the email from Mr. Stark...by the way...Stark...as in Stark Industries? ;)

Reply Score: 2

RE: Ridiculous...
by timofonic on Thu 11th Dec 2008 11:33 UTC in reply to "Ridiculous..."
timofonic Member since:
2006-01-26

Yes! Someone needs to verbally kick the butt to that borg from the dark side, so the Iron Man of Free Software is a very good candidate for that!

Another candidate could be Linus Torvalds, and his reply would be quoted in every geek email signature.

An autographed photo of Richard Stallman with a dedicated letter would scare her and quit from the education "industry" forever, but that's too cruel and maybe she could think about suicide ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Ridiculous...
by jabbotts on Thu 11th Dec 2008 13:59 UTC in reply to "RE: Ridiculous..."
jabbotts Member since:
2007-09-06

Helios has scheduled a meeting with her and her superior in early January. Seems the respondent has children in the education system in Austin and is interested to speak with this teacher as a parent and as a Helios representative. Wow do I wish I could be a fly on the wall or at least tap the room for audio and sit within transmission range.

Reply Score: 2

Enlightening & frightening story
by irbis on Thu 11th Dec 2008 01:30 UTC
irbis
Member since:
2005-07-08

A very enlightening while also a preplexing and quite frightening story about the obstacles facing not only Linux but any alternative operating systems in the world today.

Here's the important question: Do we really want to support a continuous OS monopoly of a one single monopolistic OS vendor, and the related IT culture, if the result is that even many teachers, who should be educated, show this kind of uneducated and bad behaviour when they are faced with alternative operating systems?

I wonder if the teacher in question also supports other kind of monopolies? Maybe she wants her school children to use only certain kind of clothes, food, cars, bicycles etc too made by certain manufacturers and companies only?? And if being free is the problem, maybe she also opposes basic public services or charity too as those are free too??

Reply Score: 5

jabbotts Member since:
2007-09-06

teachers regularily teach outside there area of study. There are some subjects that require the teacher to be educated in the topic and teacher's colledge but it's very common to have a math background teaching french or a teacher trained in french heading a music class. I'd be surprised if this teacher had any background in computers beyond what she'd read in the class outlines.

Reply Score: 3

It's a good thing...
by Devils_Advocate on Thu 11th Dec 2008 02:13 UTC
Devils_Advocate
Member since:
2006-02-09

that the kid wasn't distributing FreeBSD CDs. She might have gone postal on him.

Reply Score: 2

RE: It's a good thing...
by Macrat on Thu 11th Dec 2008 03:26 UTC in reply to "It's a good thing..."
Macrat Member since:
2006-03-27

Or OpenSolaris?

Reply Score: 1

Educators
by kev009 on Thu 11th Dec 2008 03:07 UTC
kev009
Member since:
2006-11-30

Aahhh "educators".. how I don't miss you.

This kind of know it all attitude is all too common in academia, and not just against a kid distributing Linux CDs...

Edited 2008-12-11 03:07 UTC

Reply Score: 3

Discouraging
by solidsnake on Thu 11th Dec 2008 03:14 UTC
solidsnake
Member since:
2006-06-04

Wow! How disappointing. Shouldn't the teacher be encouraging learning and praising the students' technological interest?

Reply Score: 4

funny response
by ari-free on Thu 11th Dec 2008 03:45 UTC
ari-free
Member since:
2007-01-22

"You are kidding arent you ?

Are you saying that this linux can run on a computer without windows underneath it, at all ?
As in, without a boot disk, without any drivers, and without any services ?

That sounds preposterous to me.

If it were true (and I doubt it), then companies would be selling computers without a windows.
This clearly is not happening, so there must be some error in your calculations. I hope you
realise that windows is more than just Office ? Its a whole system that runs the computer from
start to finish, and that is a very difficult thing to acheive. A lot of people dont realise this.

Microsoft just spent $9 billion and many years to create Vista, so it does not sound
reasonable that some new alternative could just snap into existence overnight like that.
It would take billions of dollars and a massive effort to achieve. IBM tried, and spent a
huge amount of money developing OS/2 but could never keep up with Windows. Apple tried
to create their own system for years, but finally gave up recently and moved to Intel and Microsoft.

Its just not possible that a freeware like the Linux could be extended to the point where
it runs the entire computer fron start to finish, without using some of the more critical
parts of windows. Not possible.

I think you need to re-examine your assumptions."

Reply Score: 13

v RE: funny response
by Different on Thu 11th Dec 2008 03:57 UTC in reply to "funny response"
RE: funny response
by sbergman27 on Thu 11th Dec 2008 04:26 UTC in reply to "funny response"
sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

"You are kidding arent you ? Are you saying that this linux can run on a computer without windows underneath it, at all ? As in, without a boot disk, without any drivers, and without any services ? That sounds preposterous to me. If it were true...

Funny. But not quite as good as the classic "*BSD is Dying" troll. I've seen that post before. Someone apparently reposted it to the Helios blog.

It always gets a few good responses (point by point rebuttals on good days) out of those who don't realize. :-)

Edited 2008-12-11 04:45 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: funny response
by google_ninja on Thu 11th Dec 2008 04:48 UTC in reply to "RE: funny response"
google_ninja Member since:
2006-02-05

I like how his line breaks are all off. Obviously copy/pasted from somewhere else

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: funny response
by _txf_ on Thu 11th Dec 2008 09:37 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: funny response"
_txf_ Member since:
2008-03-17

yeah, It was written by a (moron) tech writer on Infoworld, I believe.

someone correct me if I'm wrong.

edit: reading the other comments...It's actually jerryleecooper. There is a surprisingly similar article though in infoworld or some site like that...

Edited 2008-12-11 09:39 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: funny response
by Moulinneuf on Thu 11th Dec 2008 11:17 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: funny response"
Moulinneuf Member since:
2005-07-06

http://jerryleecooper.com/?s=bsd

"No posts found. Try a different search?"

He don't even know BSD exist ;-)

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: funny response
by ari-free on Thu 11th Dec 2008 07:32 UTC in reply to "RE: funny response"
ari-free Member since:
2007-01-22

Here's a dialogue I had on another forum over the topic "World's first personal supercomputer unveiled"

me: "This was already available 20 years ago...in Japan!"

dense guy: Sure it was. You haven’t clue what you are talking about.

me: "Yes I do, you insensitive clod!"

dense guy: Crybaby.

me: "You must be new here."

dense guy: My life began decades before [the forum] was online, so I guess that makes you the newcomer. Welcome to life, kid.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: funny response
by Moulinneuf on Thu 11th Dec 2008 08:51 UTC in reply to "RE: funny response"
Moulinneuf Member since:
2005-07-06

"BSD is dying" is not a troll , It's a call for help disguised as an insult , its often made by BSD user,s them self to show that people still cares about it due to there low numbers. It's an Old GNU/Linux insult post that got the GNU/Linxu words turned as BSD as replacement. Why ? because the same post can be traced back as a time when GNU/Linux developer where in the low numbers and a similar post was made and then the world started to see the creation of Slackware , Debian , Red Hat , SuSe.

beside you don't know the definition of a troll , troll are *unrelated* flamebaits made by anonymous that change the subject and thread to something different and unrelated.

Discussing BSD in a BSD thread is not a troll.

Like if the subject is OS they start discussing the elections or trow patriotic insults that derails the discussion.

-----

It is official; Netcraft now confirms: *BSD is dying

One more crippling bombshell hit the already beleaguered *BSD community when IDC confirmed that *BSD market share has dropped yet again, now down to less than a fraction of 1 percent of all servers. Coming close on the heels of a recent Netcraft survey which plainly states that *BSD has lost more market share, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. *BSD is collapsing in complete disarray, as fittingly exemplified by failing dead last in the recent Sys Admin comprehensive networking test.

You don't need to be a Kreskin to predict *BSD's future. The hand writing is on the wall: *BSD faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for *BSD because *BSD is dying. Things are looking very bad for *BSD. As many of us are already aware, *BSD continues to lose market share. Red ink flows like a river of blood.

FreeBSD is the most endangered of them all, having lost 93% of its core developers. The sudden and unpleasant departures of long time FreeBSD developers Jordan Hubbard and Mike Smith only serve to underscore the point more clearly. There can no longer be any doubt: FreeBSD is dying.

Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers.

OpenBSD leader Theo states that there are 7000 users of OpenBSD. How many users of NetBSD are there? Let's see. The number of OpenBSD versus NetBSD posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there are about 7000/5 = 1400 NetBSD users. BSD/OS posts on Usenet are about half of the volume of NetBSD posts. Therefore there are about 700 users of BSD/OS. A recent article put FreeBSD at about 80 percent of the *BSD market. Therefore there are (7000+1400+700)*4 = 36400 FreeBSD users. This is consistent with the number of FreeBSD Usenet posts.

Due to the troubles of Walnut Creek, abysmal sales and so on, FreeBSD went out of business and was taken over by BSDI who sell another troubled OS. Now BSDI is also dead, its corpse turned over to yet another charnel house.

All major surveys show that *BSD has steadily declined in market share. *BSD is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If *BSD is to survive at all it will be among OS dilettante dabblers. *BSD continues to decay. Nothing short of a cockeyed miracle could save *BSD from its fate at this point in time. For all practical purposes, *BSD is dead.

Fact: *BSD is dying

-----

Beside everyone knows BSD is not dying it's already dead. People use Apple and not OpenBSd , FreeBSD and
NetBSD. ;-)

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: funny response
by hamster on Thu 11th Dec 2008 09:12 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: funny response"
hamster Member since:
2006-10-06

"BSD is dying" is not a troll , It's a call for help disguised as an insult , its often made by BSD user,s them self to show that people still cares about it due to there low numbers. It's an Old GNU/Linux insult post that got the GNU/Linxu words turned as BSD as replacement. Why ? because the same post can be traced back as a time when GNU/Linux developer where in the low numbers and a similar post was made and then the world started to see the creation of Slackware , Debian , Red Hat , SuSe.

beside you don't know the definition of a troll , troll are *unrelated* flamebaits made by anonymous that change the subject and thread to something different and unrelated.

Discussing BSD in a BSD thread is not a troll.

Like if the subject is OS they start discussing the elections or trow patriotic insults that derails the discussion.

-----

It is official; Netcraft now confirms: *BSD is dying

One more crippling bombshell hit the already beleaguered *BSD community when IDC confirmed that *BSD market share has dropped yet again, now down to less than a fraction of 1 percent of all servers. Coming close on the heels of a recent Netcraft survey which plainly states that *BSD has lost more market share, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. *BSD is collapsing in complete disarray, as fittingly exemplified by failing dead last in the recent Sys Admin comprehensive networking test.

You don't need to be a Kreskin to predict *BSD's future. The hand writing is on the wall: *BSD faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for *BSD because *BSD is dying. Things are looking very bad for *BSD. As many of us are already aware, *BSD continues to lose market share. Red ink flows like a river of blood.

FreeBSD is the most endangered of them all, having lost 93% of its core developers. The sudden and unpleasant departures of long time FreeBSD developers Jordan Hubbard and Mike Smith only serve to underscore the point more clearly. There can no longer be any doubt: FreeBSD is dying.

Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers.

OpenBSD leader Theo states that there are 7000 users of OpenBSD. How many users of NetBSD are there? Let's see. The number of OpenBSD versus NetBSD posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there are about 7000/5 = 1400 NetBSD users. BSD/OS posts on Usenet are about half of the volume of NetBSD posts. Therefore there are about 700 users of BSD/OS. A recent article put FreeBSD at about 80 percent of the *BSD market. Therefore there are (7000+1400+700)*4 = 36400 FreeBSD users. This is consistent with the number of FreeBSD Usenet posts.

Due to the troubles of Walnut Creek, abysmal sales and so on, FreeBSD went out of business and was taken over by BSDI who sell another troubled OS. Now BSDI is also dead, its corpse turned over to yet another charnel house.

All major surveys show that *BSD has steadily declined in market share. *BSD is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If *BSD is to survive at all it will be among OS dilettante dabblers. *BSD continues to decay. Nothing short of a cockeyed miracle could save *BSD from its fate at this point in time. For all practical purposes, *BSD is dead.

Fact: *BSD is dying

-----

Beside everyone knows BSD is not dying it's already dead. People use Apple and not OpenBSd , FreeBSD and
NetBSD. ;-)


Nice to see that you as usual are good at dokumenting your claims..

Reply Score: 5

RE[4]: funny response
by Moulinneuf on Thu 11th Dec 2008 09:29 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: funny response"
Moulinneuf Member since:
2005-07-06

http://www.google.ca/search?q=bsd+is+dying&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&r...

"A tongue-in-cheek look at the history and future of the BSD movement. Modeled after the presentation styles of Lessig and Hardt, the talk provides a light-hearted introspection of the leaders, technologies, and community that forges ahead despite having been left for dead some 15 years past. This presentation was given by Jason Dixon at the NYC BSD Conference at Columbia University on October 28, 2006"

There you go hamster ...

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: funny response
by hamster on Thu 11th Dec 2008 10:09 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: funny response"
hamster Member since:
2006-10-06

http://www.google.ca/search?q=bsd+is+dying&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-...

"A tongue-in-cheek look at the history and future of the BSD movement. Modeled after the presentation styles of Lessig and Hardt, the talk provides a light-hearted introspection of the leaders, technologies, and community that forges ahead despite having been left for dead some 15 years past. This presentation was given by Jason Dixon at the NYC BSD Conference at Columbia University on October 28, 2006"

There you go hamster ...


You might wanna look at your so called dokumentation..

Your so called netcraft dokumentation comes from the same place as this one:

http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Linux

But as usual you failed at dokumenting your claims

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: funny response
by Moulinneuf on Thu 11th Dec 2008 10:57 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: funny response"
Moulinneuf Member since:
2005-07-06

So you use *Uncyclopedia* as reference ... Witch explain why your always wrong and disagreeing.

dokumentation

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dokumentation

Press on english and you get "documentation".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Documentation

Waarom ben je zo toenaam van uw gezin en de eigen naam?

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: funny response
by hamster on Thu 11th Dec 2008 16:45 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: funny response"
hamster Member since:
2006-10-06

So you use *Uncyclopedia* as reference ... Witch explain why your always wrong and disagreeing.

dokumentation

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dokumentation

Press on english and you get "documentation".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Documentation

Waarom ben je zo toenaam van uw gezin en de eigen naam?


Well let's see who uses Uncyclopedia as dokumentation should we..?

http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/BSD_is_Dying

The link you used for your netcraft rant in your first post in this thread. As usual your wrong and once again your bs have been called so just crawl back in your troll cave

Reply Score: 2

RE: funny response
by bornagainenguin on Thu 11th Dec 2008 05:44 UTC in reply to "funny response"
bornagainenguin Member since:
2005-08-07

ari-free quoted jerryleecooper in attempt to be funny...

"You are kidding arent you ?

Are you saying that this linux can run on a computer without windows underneath it, at all ?

As in, without a boot disk, without any drivers, and without any services ?

That sounds preposterous to me.

If it were true (and I doubt it), then companies would be selling computers without a windows. This clearly is not happening, so there must be some error in your calculations. I hope you realise that windows is more than just Office ? Its a whole system that runs the computer from start to finish, and that is a very difficult thing to acheive. A lot of people dont realise this.

Microsoft just spent $9 billion and many years to create Vista, so it does not sound reasonable that some new alternative could just snap into existence overnight like that. It would take billions of dollars and a massive effort to achieve. IBM tried, and spent a huge amount of money developing OS/2 but could never keep up with Windows. Apple tried to create their own system for years, but finally gave up recently and moved to Intel and Microsoft.

Its just not possible that a freeware like the Linux could be extended to the point where it runs the entire computer fron start to finish, without using some of the more critical parts of windows. Not possible.

I think you need to re-examine your assumptions."


WOOOOOOOSHHHHH!

Everyone who modded this down without realizing it was copy pasta, especially given the poster's title "funny response" and the quotes within the post itself deserve to be smacked with a wet mackeral. How could it not have been obvious the poster was posting copypasta? Could the poster have been more obvious???

I just modded the post +1 funny (from its current -5) and hope that others will do the same, so ari-free doesn't end up losing reputation over other people's inability to RTFA! jerryleecooper is the OP and this was posted in the comments of the Helios blog. Next time let's try to control the knee-jerk response, huh guys?

--bornagainpenguin

PS: I'm assuming the main reason for the jerryleecooper copypasta in the Helios blog comments was a reminder of how easy it can be to troll these kinds of things...

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: funny response
by sbergman27 on Thu 11th Dec 2008 06:12 UTC in reply to "RE: funny response"
sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

In sympathy for the no doubt more enlightened than the here-depicted people of the City of Austin, and as a citizen of Oklahoma City, of which the Township of Tuttle is a kinda sorta suburb...

http://tinyurl.com/hnh47

Edited 2008-12-11 06:21 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: funny response
by ari-free on Thu 11th Dec 2008 07:21 UTC in reply to "RE: funny response"
ari-free Member since:
2007-01-22

thank you, I really appreciate that!

At least I got a score of 8 for my first post on this thread.

Edited 2008-12-11 07:23 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE: funny response
by nalf38 on Thu 11th Dec 2008 09:21 UTC in reply to "funny response"
nalf38 Member since:
2006-09-01

I love that old post.

Reply Score: 1

alternative OS's are valuable
by pixel8r on Thu 11th Dec 2008 03:47 UTC
pixel8r
Member since:
2007-08-11

In my opinion learning Linux/MacOSX/other alternative operating systems makes you a more capable windows user anyway. You are more able to approach each OS objectively and realise which bits are specific only to certain OS's.

Reply Score: 1

RE: alternative OS's are valuable
by DigitalAxis on Thu 11th Dec 2008 04:58 UTC in reply to "alternative OS's are valuable"
DigitalAxis Member since:
2005-08-28

I learned way more about how English is constructed when I was learning French, than I ever did in English class.

Reply Score: 3

RE: alternative OS's are valuable
by jabbotts on Thu 11th Dec 2008 14:06 UTC in reply to "alternative OS's are valuable"
jabbotts Member since:
2007-09-06

chaining applications and finding ways to use software outside of it's single intended use due to a life of Dos, Windows, Linux and osX is one of the reasons I'm good with anything that has a keyboard usually without touching the nasty RSI causing slow mouse. Something as easy as using Wordpad to quickly search/replace a text string doesn't seem to remotely occur to a Windows only user (not the ones I meet anyhow; replace " " with %20 before pasting a url into a text email).

Reply Score: 2

Schools Haven't Changed
by tweakedenigma on Thu 11th Dec 2008 04:13 UTC
tweakedenigma
Member since:
2006-12-27

Seems things are still the same as when I was in public school. Anyone that shows any independent thought is punished.

I may never understand why institutions that are supposedly geared towards learning are more interested in conformity.

Reply Score: 3

You should be fired
by rianquinn on Thu 11th Dec 2008 04:50 UTC
rianquinn
Member since:
2007-01-25

If the teacher is reading this...... you should be fired. Imagine if that same attitude was taken during the women's rights movement. Basically, the equivalent comment would be, "do not teach women about science, math, or business because its not preparing them for the real world."

Its people like this that encourage me to homeschool my children. As Helen Lovejoy would say, "Won't somebody please think of the children!?"

Reply Score: 7

The Teacher Might have a point
by OSGuy on Thu 11th Dec 2008 05:12 UTC
OSGuy
Member since:
2006-01-01

Man I will be so modded for this.

The teacher (as much as I want to disagree) might have a point and here is why. When those kids finish school, when they are applying for a job they will be asked "Do you have MS Office skills", "Active Directory", "Lotus Notes"? -- what will they say? Oh hmm, wait, let me see I have "AbiWord skills", hmm oh yea, one sec, I also have "OpenOffice.ORG" skills -- right, good luck to them getting a job. No offense but this is the way it looks to me. As far as the teacher is concerned, she should not have said anything and should have gone with the flow.

Reply Score: 1

sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

when they are applying for a job they will be asked "Do you have MS Office skills", "Active Directory"...

Yeah. *All* the application forms ask you about Active Directory. Id'a gotten on at McDonalds if only... if only... ;-)

Edited 2008-12-11 05:19 UTC

Reply Score: 7

OSGuy Member since:
2006-01-01

Probably about 80/90% of the job ads I have seen ask you for Active Dir and Lotus Notes and as far as MS Office skills, I can comfortably say 99.99%. About 30% ask for Linux but these ones that ask for Linux are normally aimed at hard core geeks.

Edited 2008-12-11 05:51 UTC

Reply Score: 3

jabbotts Member since:
2007-09-06

what positions are those job postings for? You see a lot of non-IT or non sys-admin positions requiring Active Directory? Would understanding the general principals and a few different LDAP solutions not increase the potential of an MS-LDAP administrator?

Reply Score: 4

Angel Blue01 Member since:
2006-11-01

Well most of the IT positions when searching for "desktop support" list Active Directory, even help desks. I've seen every interviewer look at me in dismay when I mention I don't have Active Directory experience, which I'm sure has cost me several possible hirings, but unlike Linux I can't easily download and play with Windows Server on a spare box at home (legally) to gain experience.

Reply Score: 1

Vanders Member since:
2005-07-06

About 30% ask for Linux but these ones that ask for Linux are normally aimed at hard core geeks.


No, these are the ones that are aimed at the people that have the skillsets that the advertiser requires. They also tend to pay better.

Reply Score: 3

RaisedFist Member since:
2005-07-06

I don't care about the active directory statement, but you should know that Lotus notes and in fact all the Lotus Symphony suite works on Linux and OS X at the moment. Do a google search and you'll see.

Reply Score: 4

Johann Chua Member since:
2005-07-22

Well if go down that road, I imagine someone really good with OS X-only apps will get paid more than the average Windows user. Using a computer isn't rocket science, and some jobs will be using niche apps that you'll need to learn as you go anyway.

Learn how to use a computer, not how to use Windows.

Reply Score: 4

RE: The Teacher Might have a point
by lawlernet on Thu 11th Dec 2008 06:51 UTC in reply to "The Teacher Might have a point"
lawlernet Member since:
2005-08-22

"

Man I will be so modded for this.

The teacher (as much as I want to disagree) might have a point and here is why. When those kids finish school, when they are applying for a job they will be asked "Do you have MS Office skills", "Active Directory", "Lotus Notes"? -- what will they say? Oh hmm, wait, let me see I have "AbiWord skills", hmm oh yea, one sec, I also have "OpenOffice.ORG" skills -- right, good luck to them getting a job. No offense but this is the way it looks to me. As far as the teacher is concerned, she should not have said anything and should have gone with the flow.
"



If you understand the mechanics for OpenOffice.ORG or Abiword, I doubt it's a huge leap to understand how to use Microsoft Office. Aside from that, it's not like the student was formatting everyone's hard drive and saying "From now on, we will only use linux!!"

He was simply showing a commonly used OS, and if that teacher had any vision, she would have encouraged her students to persue an interest in technology.

I wish the school's address was posted so I could send them a kind letter letting them now what a joke their tech. education is.

Edited 2008-12-11 06:53 UTC

Reply Score: 4

Piranha Member since:
2008-06-24

How many 'Karens' from (something) Middle School can there really be?

Reply Score: 1

RE: The Teacher Might have a point
by shotsman on Thu 11th Dec 2008 07:16 UTC in reply to "The Teacher Might have a point"
shotsman Member since:
2005-07-22

I'd like to know what planet you are living on if every job requires AD skills. Probably Planet Redmond.

I know nothing about AD and frankly to quote those famous words from gone with the Wind, 'I Don't give a damm'.
The IT world is large enough these days that you can't know everything about everything. I don't loose sleep at night worry about my lack of AD skills.

Back on Topic. This teacher needs to go back to school and for the sake of the children they tean, sooner rather than later.
The world is moving away from Microsoft and people in Education need to understand this and offer the alternatives including Linux.
I'm sure the LUG nearest to the the School in Question would only be too happy to 're-educate them' (In a nice way of course).

Reply Score: 4

sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

I'd like to know what planet you are living on if every job requires AD skills.

Not every job. I believe that 80% to 90% was the claim.

Reply Score: 2

Vanders Member since:
2005-07-06

84% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

Reply Score: 4

diskinetic Member since:
2005-12-09

You're using old data. It's 79% (with a 4-point error margin).

Reply Score: 2

RE: The Teacher Might have a point
by apoclypse on Thu 11th Dec 2008 07:36 UTC in reply to "The Teacher Might have a point"
apoclypse Member since:
2007-02-17

A wordprcessor is a wordprocessor is wordprocessor. The fundamentals of the word processor hasn't changed all that much since Wrdperfect. Learning the basics and understanding them not just learning rote is the important part. If you used one spreadsheet app qndn one what you are doing using another should only be an issue whenyou need to find an application specific function.

An I was younger and in school the machines.we learned in were Apple machines, this idiot teacher doesn't seem to understand that technology change in an
instant. Just because Windows and office are
the main tools now doesn't mean that they I'll
be used in the future. The way things are
going win Apple this looks to be the case
already. Even the fact that the kid was
interested in linux shows that the next
generation may not have any ties to Micosoft
and will have no issues learning and using
alternatives.

I would like see a policy or law implemented that forces schools to give a more well rounded education when it comes to
Technology and not let the lobbiest get in the way. They should be teaching the fundamentals. When I was in elementary the fundamentals included using the command line and learning how navigate through a machine without a mouse ( because they by prevaient). Learning the commandline ( anyone will do, even DOS) should me essential learning. Showing kids how to program a computer using simple math ianother must. Kids could see a real world aplication of their math skills and what they can be used to achieve. All of these are things I learned when I was younger and I was in public school. Those were diferent times then. It absolutey astounds how some people who use their computer daily can be so computer illiterate. They undersand very little of what they do, they just do what they wee taught.

Reply Score: 3

RE: The Teacher Might have a point
by Ravyne on Thu 11th Dec 2008 07:45 UTC in reply to "The Teacher Might have a point"
Ravyne Member since:
2006-01-08

I agree to a point... That point is that, at least for the near-term future, direct experience with the typical Microsoft-centric office and productivity apps are marketable skills for graduates. For many who will toil away in an office cubicle, this is all the will ever need or desire to know -- Sad, perhaps, but reality nonetheless; Not everyone grows up with the desire to be a power user, developer or computer scientist, and those folks will be happy enough with the status quo whether by convenience, ignorance or choice. My Elementary and High School was 95% Apple (pre-OSX days) and if I were in the market for an office gig, I'll tell you that my ClarisWorks skills are not exactly marketable. The general skills I learned -- typing, image editing, basic administration type stuff -- those have stuck with me, but would have done just as well through Windows, Linux, or whatever else.

That said, I would be thrilled to see schools embrace a more-diverse OS ecosystem so that those who desire to explore the hinterland are able to -- Linux and MacOS in particular. Some kids do desire to be power users, developers and computer scientists, after all.

Even selectively applying free solutions would have a tangible benefit to the bottom line -- Why pay a Windows license and per-seat support for those internet terminals in the library? A Linux box running Firefox in Kiosk mode is not only free of licensing, but also less prone to abuse, requiring less support and monitoring. In fact, I bet that Windows-based system that keeps track of checked-out books running some boutique library software costs and arm and a leg every year, and that free open-source library solutions exist. Free solutions certainly do have a place in all levels of education, both in the limelight and behind the scenes.

I see this reluctance less as a Microsoft pay-off and more as another example of the education system move more and more towards training rather than education. Kids are taught less to research, think and understand and more to simply apply memorized or easily looked-up solutions. These days, to separate the wheat from the chaff one only has to ask the candidate to develop a novel solution, or to apply a known solution to a novel problem -- and this extends from primary education up through post-secondary.

Reply Score: 3

Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

That point is that, at least for the near-term future, direct experience with the typical Microsoft-centric office and productivity apps are marketable skills for graduates


I doubt it's that valuable when you "graduate" middle school.
If later in life you need these specific skills there are plenty of night schools that provide the training.

Reply Score: 3

RE: The Teacher Might have a point
by OSGuy on Thu 11th Dec 2008 07:50 UTC in reply to "The Teacher Might have a point"
OSGuy Member since:
2006-01-01

Ok look I am *not* anti linux nor I am anti-MS. I truly love linux and all the freedom and choices we all have.

I didn't read the full story before. I just read it and it is truly hilarious and ironic what the teacher says especially about the part where she mentions "illegal". Reminds me a liitle bit on SCO. I do NOT support the teacher and I support the student. I have done something similar my self at work, I have been demoing PCLinuxOS.

Anyway, to cover my red face I have to defend my self. I believe you are more likely to get a job by being a MS expert rather than Linux. Feel free to disagree with me - hence my previous comment.

Edited 2008-12-11 07:53 UTC

Reply Score: 1

wanderingk88 Member since:
2008-06-26

You might find it easier to get jobs if you're a Windows expert, but you will be paid more if you're a proficient Linux/UNIX guy.

(Besides, who says I can't learn both? I actually do know my way around both AD and UNIX systems administration. That's the problem with people today: You can't learn anything that won't directly affect your job opportunities 'cause you'd be wasting your time or something. What the f--k? When did learning for the sake of it become useless?).

Reply Score: 1

darknexus Member since:
2008-07-15

When did learning for the sake of it become useless?).

Well, since education became memorization and conformity rather than being anything useful, at least in certain countries--here, in the USA, might be the worst of it to be honest. Just remember, the people who want to learn for the sake of it usually end up better for it in the end, if not necessarily right away. It's never useless, despite what the social order preaches.

Reply Score: 2

Angel Blue01 Member since:
2006-11-01

I agree! I tell them at every interview, I may not have much experience but I'm willing to learn whatever I need to know.

Learning for its own sake is my great enjoyment in life (followed by using what I know to help people), too bad you can't make a job off that.

Reply Score: 1

jabbotts Member since:
2007-09-06

Basing job market on retail market, 90% of jobs in IT require Windows knowledge. That ignores how easy it is to gain Windows knowledge if you understand the concepts. It also ignores the server room staff, the info sec industry, the majority of the internet industry, network infrastructure.

But it is absolutely required that you learn before or on the job if the position is Windows Server Administrator.

Reply Score: 2

RE: The Teacher Might have a point
by l3v1 on Thu 11th Dec 2008 09:33 UTC in reply to "The Teacher Might have a point"
l3v1 Member since:
2005-07-06

"Do you have MS Office skills", "Active Directory", "Lotus Notes"


They either would a). say 'Yes, I do, besides many other skills' or b). apply for a job for which they have the necessary skills.

To the fellow who said 80-90% of jobs would require AD "skills", I'd say you're right, if 80-90% of the jobs are admin-related IT-jobs (which they are not).

Reply Score: 3

abraxas Member since:
2005-07-07

""Do you have MS Office skills", "Active Directory", "Lotus Notes"


They either would a). say 'Yes, I do, besides many other skills' or b). apply for a job for which they have the necessary skills.

To the fellow who said 80-90% of jobs would require AD "skills", I'd say you're right, if 80-90% of the jobs are admin-related IT-jobs (which they are not).
"

Agreed. A lot of jobs around me are programming jobs that don't require AD knowlege. There are a ton of other IT jobs that require LAMP experience and/or experience with a CMS, neither of which require AD skills. This is the IT landscape where I live but it may be different depending on where you live. I'd have to say that maybe only 10 percent of the jobs even mentionn AD.

Reply Score: 4

Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Your point would have been valid if they had been in, say, secretary school.
However, they are in MIDDLE school. If we apply this logic to other fields we should of course not teach stuff like biology, chemistry or more advanced mathematics. How many people use any of these skills in their daily jobs? Also, women should only be skilled in how to cook and make babies. What else do they need, really?

Is it April 1 already?

Reply Score: 3

jabbotts Member since:
2007-09-06

They will say "yes" because inevitably, they will also have experience with Office or transferable skills that allow them to "just works" with Office. Just like the rest of us did when Office arrived on the scene and started killing off the competition. Oddly, my Wordperfect skills transfered to Word very naturally without the need to use the WP compatability key bindings. My general experience with computer GUI meant I knew that the underlined part of the word in the menus was part of the keyboard chain to use that function.

What about all the people who had colledge courses in WordPerfect, odly, they also found work using MS Office and the generally educated rather than brand specificly educated had little issue with the conversion.

The more OS you can learn to work with, the better. A computer user should be able to sit at any prepared workstation and just work. A person who sits infront of a prepared X or osX GUI and is afraid to even touch the mouse because it's not a big shiny Windows background is a product defect from the education manufacturing process.

In my current possition, it wasn't my background in Windows Server that made me the best fit for the *nix server administrator and information security expert. That experience along with the rest of my experience helps and grows on a daily basis though.

(no modding down but I think it's worth sitting back and rethinking the value of knowing things other than the Microsoft library.)

Reply Score: 4

reverse logic
by unclefester on Thu 11th Dec 2008 09:05 UTC
unclefester
Member since:
2007-01-13

I trained as an analytical chemist at university. We concentrated on learning theory on the understanding we could easily learn any particular technique later on. In the workplace I often learned how to do a particular analysis simply by reading a manual or a technical paper. I was certainly never trained just to use one type or brand of equipment.

Reply Score: 3

open source in Australian education
by unclefester on Thu 11th Dec 2008 09:15 UTC
unclefester
Member since:
2007-01-13

The New South Wales (population 5 million) government is opening tenders for an integrated software/hardware bundle for all government schools. They have allowed a tiny budget of around USD50 per computer for a very comprehensive application bundle including OS and a full office suite. MS is either going to have to provide software virtually free or be locked out of the tender.

Reply Score: 3

jabbotts Member since:
2007-09-06

It'll be option one followed by a personal visit from the Marketing black ops team. They have not been shy about dropping to rock bottom license fees to maintain a foothold in other cases. If only on the basis that the shareholders will require MS to do something rather than let a potential opportunity pass.

Reply Score: 3

Holding our kids back
by Kochise on Thu 11th Dec 2008 10:09 UTC
Kochise
Member since:
2006-03-03

From Karen : "I admire your attempts in getting computers in the hands of disadvantaged people but putting linux on these machines is holding our kids back [...] I am sure if you contacted Microsoft, they would be more than happy to supply you with copies of an older verison of Windows and that way, your computers would actually be of service to those receiving them..."

So working with "older verison (?) of Windows" ain't "holding our kids back" ? That's pretty nasty, especialy from a teacher... Common', let's take the cart horse to go to school, after all, that ain't "holding our kids back" from progress ;)

Kochise

Reply Score: 3

friday
Member since:
2008-07-08

This teacher is probably best a reflection of the general public's awareness of Linux. With Microsoft, we've seen a barrage of evangelists, commercials, and advertisements. With the various distros of linux, you'll be lucky to ever see any of the above. Hence, the teacher making statements she believes to be true.

One of the bad things about linux is that it is it's own promoter. Only by word of mouth is it spread, and many linux users have their own flavor to gum up the mix. Somewhere down the line, the larger distributions are going to have to pitch together their funds to create their own advertising campaign. Only then, will we start seeing less and less of this teacher type who are generally clueless.

Reply Score: 2

Kochise Member since:
2006-03-03

"Hence, the teacher making statements she believes to be true."

That's not her job, otherwise she could also teach the kids that the Earth is plate-shaped, according to her own beliefs ? Creationism ain't that far away... Common', there's the InterNet, couldn't she just google-it (r) for "Linux" before claiming stupid and naïve things, or does she have to RTFM first ?

Kochise

Reply Score: 2

jabbotts
Member since:
2007-09-06

anyone have her email handy so we can all send her christmas cards?

(She reminds me of someone who tried it once, couldn't figure it out in five minutes and decided it was broken for ever and always.. like a highschool kid that gets rejected once and takes that out on everyone the rest of their lives)

Reply Score: 2

The truth about Linux
by Jonix on Thu 11th Dec 2008 12:49 UTC
Jonix
Member since:
2007-02-14

The kid or any acquainted to her would would be smart to present this article to her

http://www.promotinglinux.com/truth/

If she's using faulty logic, we can use inverse logic ;-)

Reply Score: 1

Blame and dont blame Microsoft
by REM2000 on Thu 11th Dec 2008 13:21 UTC
REM2000
Member since:
2006-07-25

I know it's an odd title but,

We shouldn't blame microsoft in one respect, as im sure not even microsoft would like this sort of PR, it makes Microsoft appear brutal and ignorant in the pleas of this teacher.

However on the other hand, Microsoft does have only it's self to blame, with all of it's marketing blitz and it's saturation of the Education sector. I thinks it's great that Microsoft does provide software to students and educational sectors for free or nearly free, however i don't like that this is done at the price of saying it's our way or no way.

This again is a real shame as there are many clever people who are honestly trying to make a difference and trying to make the world a better place.

I cannot believe a teacher can be so stupid to believe the absolute crap she was saying and it's scary to think how many other children are being brainwashed with this useless information.

I grew up on BBC Micro's with her logic, how am i a Network Administrator?? As far as i know everybody in my company is not using a series of networked BBC Micro computers linked up to a BBC Micro server!! We use Windows, Linux and Mac's (I pride myself on being platform argonistic).

Reply Score: 2

It's a complicated problem
by darkwyrm on Thu 11th Dec 2008 13:59 UTC
darkwyrm
Member since:
2006-03-15

As both a music and computer teacher and a free software developer, I can see both sides. There's a lot of ignorance and misinformation to fight. I'd bet good money that the teacher honestly thought she was doing the right thing. Really. Some kids get into the wrong things -- I've had more than a couple of conversations with students that have downloaded copyrighted mp3s off P2P networks, not having the slightest clue that what they were doing was illegal. Her ignorance is not the least bit surprising.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: most regular people don't know (or care) what an operating system is. The teacher in question is unusual in that instead not knowing anything, she is terribly misinformed.

Before anyone cries havoc and lets loose the dogs of war, keep in mind that unless a teacher's content area is technology-related or the teacher is an enthusiast, his computer expertise will be limited to office software and maybe a few specialized programs (crossword generator, etc.).

The solution? Don't just tell people. Teach them. Much more often than not, they just don't know. Just keep in mind that regular people don't really care what software they use as long as it lets them get their work done.

Edited 2008-12-11 14:00 UTC

Reply Score: 4

RE: It's a complicated problem
by Soulbender on Thu 11th Dec 2008 14:33 UTC in reply to "It's a complicated problem"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

his computer expertise will be limited to office software and maybe a few specialized programs (crossword generator, etc.).


I think the problem here is not lack of knowledge, it's that she's ignorant enough to think that she know what she's talking about when clearly she does not have a clue on planet earth.
It could also be the years of BSA indoctrination that software isn't free and don't copy that floppy. I guess teachers get fed that a lot.

Reply Score: 3

Good to know...
by daste on Thu 11th Dec 2008 14:50 UTC
daste
Member since:
2008-01-14

... that this kind of stuff does not happen only in Italy... I thought this country had the worst education system in Europe, but probably "if Sparta cries, Athens can't laugh".

I remember having an argument with a teacher while I was at high school about ethernet-wiring the old school building: I suggested him to give a look at the WiFi alternative back then (so that they could even reuse it in the new building), but he laughed and insulted me publicly claiming that I didn't know what I was talking about... later I discovered he was getting money for that, so the more it costed, the more he earned.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Good to know...
by jabbotts on Thu 11th Dec 2008 16:22 UTC in reply to "Good to know..."
jabbotts Member since:
2007-09-06

Tech support loves Microsoft, without Windows, we wouldn't have to visit and bill the client weekly. (as an old boss used to joke long ago in a Windows only shop)

Reply Score: 3

Well actually, Linux is *not* free, BSD is
by goffster on Thu 11th Dec 2008 15:15 UTC
goffster
Member since:
2007-11-24

You have to abide by the GPL. So there is a contractual obligation. Granted, for most people, this obligation equates to "free". But for some, it does not.

Reply Score: 0

jabbotts Member since:
2007-09-06

I still love the contrast.

Windows License:
- you can't X
- you can't Y
- you can't W
- You can only B
- You can only C
- we may DEF any time we like

Mandriva License:
- this software is licensed under the GPL
- you may W
- you may X
- you may Y
- you may Z
- thank you for trying our distribution

A list of what your allowed to do versus a long long legal document of what you can't do.

Reply Score: 4

And people wonder why I homeschool my kids.
by Ressev on Thu 11th Dec 2008 16:31 UTC
Ressev
Member since:
2005-07-18

Course, this is a humor post, no? Or did this truely happen with our 'esteemed' indoctri... I mean 'esteemed' education system (I would not be surprised if it did happen, however)?

Reply Score: 1

Well
by eggs on Thu 11th Dec 2008 16:31 UTC
eggs
Member since:
2006-01-23

Evidently I am the only person that thinks this guys response was over the top?

Slavery? Really?

"Linux is used to free people from Microsoft"?

He comes off as some religious zealot. He should have rationally explained why she was wrong instead of going off frothing at the mouth like some crazy cultist.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Well
by irbis on Thu 11th Dec 2008 17:35 UTC in reply to "Well"
irbis Member since:
2005-07-08

Evidently I am the only person that thinks this guys response was over the top?

You are not the only one. But I could understand that it is easy to get really irritated and even overreact a bit in one's repsonse after being faced with so extreme uneducated and baseless hysteria that the woman had showed.

Reply Score: 3

My 2 cents
by suryad on Thu 11th Dec 2008 16:49 UTC
suryad
Member since:
2005-07-09

I am probably going to get flamed for this...but obviously the teacher is an idiot. But I dont see why people are yelling at Microsoft at least in that Helios blog's comments section. I basically fail to see how this is a MS vs Linux deal. Its more about how our education system sucks and how ignorant the educators are kind of a deal.

Just seems that people love bashing Microsoft with or without reason.

Edited 2008-12-11 16:51 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE: My 2 cents
by irbis on Thu 11th Dec 2008 17:51 UTC in reply to "My 2 cents"
irbis Member since:
2005-07-08

But I dont see why people are yelling at Microsoft at least in that Helios blog's comments section. I basically fail to see how this is a MS vs Linux deal. Its more about how our education system sucks and how ignorant the educators are. Just seems that people love bashing Microsoft with or without reason.

In a way you're right, but then again, did you read the women's comments as she herself is emphasizing that to her this is very much a MS Windows vs. Linux deal. She herself thinks that it is useless to introduce kids to Linux as in her world MS Windows rules as the only important operating system.

You also have to see the bigger picture of IT culture in general. We live in an IT world where MS has an OS monopoly, on most people's desktops, at least. You cannot blame only the poor education system but you have to see where the ignorant attitude towards alternative operating systems stems from. Surely not from the educating system itself, what ever its quality, but rather: Many people don't know anything nor care to learn about any alternative operating systems because of MS Windows monopoly.

Educators are ignorant only selectively. They emphasize, in their education, things that they and the culture around them sees important, and ignore things that they and their world see unimportant. And that depends on the culture and politics.

But you're also kind of right that many people love bashing Microsoft with or without reason. They should rather encourage MS to show how good a player in the IT field it could be too, and offer only constructive criticism instead of stupid bashing. If you tease some people all the time, don't then expect that they would be kind to you either. It works both ways, of course.

Edited 2008-12-11 17:56 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: My 2 cents
by suryad on Thu 11th Dec 2008 18:32 UTC in reply to "RE: My 2 cents"
suryad Member since:
2005-07-09

So you are saying that because MS is a monopoly that is an excuse for people to not realize and think on their own that there are other alternative OSes? So basically she is not really at fault but rather Microsoft is? That is where I am disagreeing. Just because Microsoft is a monopoly does not excuse the teacher of her ignorance. I guess you are not saying that directly but it is sort of implying that. I dont mean this post to be attacking you or anyone else in any other way and nor am I defending Microsoft...it just seems that nowadays there is a tendency for people to put the blame on something else instead of taking responsibility for it.

MS being a monopoly is no excuse for her comments. Or are you saying that because MS is everywhere people think that is the only true OS? Even that makes no sense because any sane person would hop on to google after hearing about Linux and that it is free and verify the fact for themselves....I dunno I just find it hard to point the finger at Microsoft with this one.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: My 2 cents
by irbis on Thu 11th Dec 2008 19:11 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: My 2 cents"
irbis Member since:
2005-07-08

So basically she is not really at fault but rather Microsoft is?

I'm not blaming Microsoft itself for anything. They are just having a good business. Even the thing that MS Windows has practically an OS monopoly on desktops is not Microsoft's fault (how could it be?) but is more a result of decisions made by others.

Just because Microsoft is a monopoly does not excuse the teacher of her ignorance.

Of course not. But many of our attitudes are nothing but a production of the culture around us. Only those opinions that we have thoroughly evaluated and thought about by ourselves are our own, and the rest are more or less given to us from outside. It is quite obvious that the teacher in question has not studied computers a lot, so she has gotten her opinions from somewhere else, like from the dominating IT culture surrounding her.

Although I was left wondering how much her hysteric reaction could have been just general kind of fear for the unknown, and have nothing to do with IT or any facts at all?

any sane person would hop on to google after hearing about Linux and that it is free and verify the fact for themselves.

Computer litarate people intersted in learning about IT could do that, but not those hundreds of thousands of people belonging to the other end of the spectrum. Many computer illiterate people don't even know what Google is, nor do they know what an operating system is or means, what is free software, and they don't seem to be interested in finding out either. Really, I've given computer advice to even many young adults who had no idea what an operating system is. They are happy if they can only use some basic routines with their computers only.

Reply Score: 2

rakamaka
Member since:
2005-08-12

Why to blame poor comp-illetrate teacher? Biguniversity/business network administrators also thinks same way. Any free software is 'dangerous' for university/business network!!! They don't allow linux to propagate. Many universities Force UG and PGs to buy laptop from only vendor and then put only MS on it. Because they claim sys admin will be there to help 'if there is any problem' (when playing games in classroom). They don't allow to touch linux system anywhere on campus. Why blame poor teacher if elite sys admins at big univs are against 'free' software..
Try to distribute free linux CDs on your campus, you will hear same tune...

Reply Score: 3

BluenoseJake Member since:
2005-08-11

I work for a large university, and free software is a very large part of our infrastructure. Many departments use Linux for research and desktops. There is a lot of Windows desktops, but I don't see the animosity you are describing. If anything, there is a lot of animosity on my campus towards Windows in the server room.

This is the second university I have worked at since the mid 90s. The first one was like you described, but since then they have changed their policies, and you can find free software everywhere.

Like people, organizations can not be lumped together because of limited experience. All organizations evolve, and what you find at one, may be entirely absent at another.

Reply Score: 3

irbis Member since:
2005-07-08

Why blame poor teacher if elite sys admins at big univs are against 'free' software..
Try to distribute free linux CDs on your campus, you will hear same tune...

Big organizations want to centralize their IT administration to save money and work hours. Relying on a couple of chosen good IT solutions means they may not have time to introduce their people to other solutions very much. But other than that, I was left wondering where you may live as I have't seen that kind of attitude in my home country. Linux is actively used and promoted in many universities all around my country (but I admit that I happen to live in the country where Linux was born..).

Reply Score: 2

News Flash
by centos_user on Thu 11th Dec 2008 19:57 UTC
centos_user
Member since:
2008-11-16

The proceeding was funded by Microsoft...


next

Reply Score: 2

Teachers are...
by Doc Pain on Fri 12th Dec 2008 00:41 UTC
Doc Pain
Member since:
2006-10-08

I didn't want to enter this discussion at first, but I can't resist, sorry. Sometimes, teachers are... well... just read this:

But the most ridiculous story was when I was playing around with a Knoppix CD during a break. Knoppix is a Linux distribution designed to be booted directly from a CD rather than installed on a hard drive. It allows you to use Linux without disrupting the operating system that's been installed on the machine.

My instructor saw me and said, "What are you doing? That's not Windows! That's a VIRUS, isn't it? I'm going to report you for malicious use of school computers!" My advisor, who is a Linux proponent and also the sysadmin at the time, apparently laughed him out of his office when he went to complain.

******************************************

Once I went on site to set up a computer for a school. I spend several hours setting up the equipment and configuring all the software and checking the Internet connection. When I left, everything was working perfectly.

The next morning, I got a call from the teacher, saying that the computer wouldn't turn on. Perplexed, I paid another visit. I sat down at the desk and looked at each component: the scanner was on, the monitor was on, the speakers were powered up, but the screen was blank. I looked under the desk, and, sure enough, none of the lights on the face of the computer were lit. I reached down, pushed the main power button, and the computer immediately came to life and booted up normally.

Me: "Why didn't you try that?"
Customer: "The light on the brain was on...."

She was pointing to the speakers.

******************************************

My Teacher: "Do you have a booty disk on hand?"
Me: (almost losing it) "Don't you mean a boot disk?"
My Teacher: "Oh no. I need a booty disk to make the system booty up."

******************************************

My high school computing teacher routinely called Word for Windows "Windows for Word" through the whole time I went there.

******************************************

My friend is a programming teacher at a local high school, where there are two programming classes -- one taught by him and one by another teacher. Recently he spent WEEKS preparing the major assessment that both classes would do, a large assignment that the students would work on for the next few months.

As well as making the question sheet for the students, he also made an answer sheet for the other teacher, so that she could familiarize herself with the assignment before giving it to her class.

But this other teacher knows NOTHING about programming and wasn't able to tell the difference between the question sheet and answer sheet, and so she wound up photocopying the answer sheet and handing it out to every student in her class.

She no longer teaches programming.

******************************************

I'm a network administrator at a local school district, and I get some doozies.

Teacher: "My keyboard is broken."
Me: "What is it doing to make you think it's broken?"
Teacher: "When I go to type my password it doesn't type it right. No matter what I type, it's always a little star."
Me: "Yes, it is supposed to do that."
Teacher: "Well, how does it know if I get it right or wrong if it's always little stars!?"
Me: "It displays the asterisks so no one else can see your password."
Teacher: "That is stupid. I hate Bill Gates."

******************************************

Taken from http://www.rinkworks.com/stupid/

Those who are supposed to educate others (or at least help them to gain knowledge and common sense) should first pay attention to educate theirselves up to a certain level. :-)

Reply Score: 3

With the economic climate...
by centos_user on Fri 12th Dec 2008 00:54 UTC
centos_user
Member since:
2008-11-16

I believe with the current economic conditions companies/schools will be looking at cutting cost of software in any area they can. With this case in point, the alternatives that are available for free such as Open-Office, Ubuntu, CentOS, Gimp, DNS, Postfix, Samba the list goes on and on.


Being locked in to a specific software or vendor always leads to an expensive proposition in the end. And the cost of trying to break away from it cost twice as much or more than an Open Source solution. I believe the main problem is the belief that people view Microsoft as a one stop shop. Needless to say when you run into a problem with Microsoft let the games begin, a vague error, not really any specific error message other than 'Contact your Administrator'...

Well, I am the Administrator (Linux) and I am stuck with a few Windows Servers and I can say it is better to use CentOS and Open Source because you can actually work with it. Open Source solutions are not perfect but you can actually perform updates/upgrades without the pain and agony of having to purchase new hardware or memory and so on.

I think as part of the anti-trust fiasco Microsoft pretty much gave Windows/Office to a lot of schools so it was really a blessing for them, they can keep their strangle hold on the market and rake in more money by extracting it from the students for home use.

With any BIG Mega Corporation Microsoft could end up like GM or Chrysler one day, everything comes to an end and nothing is forever. They require a lot of money to keep the engine running and one day it may not be there or the alternative options may out number them to the point where they become extinct.

Reply Score: 1

Agree with the teacher
by DRIQ on Fri 12th Dec 2008 01:23 UTC
DRIQ
Member since:
2008-04-28

I regret that I have written web based applications for LAMP. The customers never call me back for any issue. I called them and offered more. They said the appz are working fine. They need no more.

I should have written it with Passive Directory, Dog Net..

Microsoft have kept me in the consulting business for over ten years. Starting with NT. I remember the goal of NT was to be as good as Novell, and as reliable as Unix. Novel and Unix are pretty healthy, are they?

I am looking forward to upgrading the customers to Vista, Windows 2008. The hardware and software cost mean there is money to be made. Praise Microsoft.

I am thinking of how to replace those AIX and Solaris working horses. They seem run 24x7 for years without any issues. Is it time for them to retire?

Reply Score: 2

andreasp
Member since:
2008-12-12

Well everybody advocating FLOSS, grab my headline!
(taken from here: http://twitter.com/helios17)
"
Text received: can I call u? response: I guess who r u? received:Karen response:k. Talked with her twice that day. Tearful, frightened. 1 day ago
--------------------------------------------------
45 minute conversation with Karen. Educated her on FOSS/Linux. Apologies flowed, she is in awe of the Linux/FOSS Community. 1 day ago
--------------------------------------------------
colleagues talked her into civil litigation for privacy violation, now on hold. Am installing Linux on her computer this Saturday. 1 day ago
"

Ok there's no more news here fellows, it seems "at last" she admits that she has done something very wrong and is about to think over her actions. (Maybe not only that...)

For me personally she is a victim (as Mr. Starks did post before), educated with proprietary models of software and businesses, she had absolutly not the slightest CLUE that she pointed her trigger at appr. 300 Million FLOSS loving and sharing Open Source and AS WELL FREE/LIBRE Software Linux or "GNU/Linux" or "GNU/Hurd/L4" users, admins, devs. Linux not far in the future will be mainstream and it should be duty of all freedom appreciating people not to diffamine, nor insult, nor attack (in any way) other people who did come other ways to their actual state of mind.

And another thing:
Let us be thinking for around ten seconds about that this fact: in some other sort of reality her argues could be true (THAT SW IN FACT IS NOT! FREE) and we were living in a world where we could not accept such truth. We would be the victims of our own reality view and perhaps fantasy, you could be arrested for distributing software or anything else proprietary.
...
Such basic unalienable rights were granted to all of us in the past long ago, received after thousands of generations before which had definitly not such a view of freedom (of software and others).

I think for your country it was 1776 after the "Boston Tea Party" AND after the long enduring war of Civil citizens in 1865 most of you were granted your basic rights you can today rely on.

Jeremy Rifkins wrote in one of his last books,
The end of property is near, now follow the ages of ACCESS (http://www.amazon.com/Age-Access-Hypercapitalism-Paid-Experience/dp...)

In my humble oppinion not every point of that vision is good and we will have to deal with things which decrease much more rapidly in money than we would have it expected.

And this is also a point which I am pointing to:
The rise of networked societies as well as the power of identities... (Trilogy from Manuel Castells (Professor as well as Advisor of the Agency of International Affairs) who leads now a "more or less" virtual university... (http://www.uoc.edu/portal/english/)

Last but not least:
I'm full of the oppinion that the OS wars are OVER!
Why? Because I say so....haha don't believe such nonsense!
New groundbreaking technologies arise like MONO as well as .NET combined with the virtualisation techniques of distributed platforms as well as everybody who runs to cloud computing.

Hmmmm
With technologies like QT4 eg I'm able to run the Beta2 of Amarok under XP... With the Efi-X module I would be able to turn a pc into something like a "superMAC"...(definitly not without consequences, but technically it would work).

William Henry Gates III is no more and Steve Ballmer is not the person who can lead MicroSoft into the future. He is a great marketer as well as a bloodhound concerning contracts (and jumping doll as well ;-)) )
But: And let me now be clear: I wrote before...
http://www.kyeldon.net/drupal-6.2/?q=node/68
MicroSoft has to change its underlying business model asap. Because the world is changing and they do not have a visionaire on the rooftops. In my humble view, there are only 3 persons who have the will and the charisma to take others with them:
First: Sam Ramji (and his team as well ...)
"Sam Ramji is the Senior Director of Platform Strategy leading Microsoft’s platform strategy efforts across the company, including long-term strategic planning in the Windows Server and Tools organization. Sam’s primary focus is to drive Microsoft’s Linux and Open Source Strategy, working together with Microsoft technology development teams and open source communities to build interoperable solutions. Prior to his current role at Microsoft, Sam was a Director of Emerging Business working on the Silicon Valley Campus where he managed relationships with Venture Capitalists and entrepreneurs. Prior to joining Microsoft, Sam led technical product strategy at BEA Systems, engineering teams building large-scale applications on Open Source software (at Ofoto.com) as well as hands-on development of client, client-server, and distributed applications on Unix, Windows, and Macintosh at prior companies. Sam holds a Bachelor of Science degree in Cognitive Science from the University of California at San Diego, and is a member of the Institute for Generative Leadership."

Second: Ray Ozzie (perhaps Craig Mundie...)
"Ray Ozzie, an industry visionary and pioneer in computer-supported cooperative work, is Microsoft's chief software architect.
Ozzie assumed the chief software architect's role in June 2006, when Chairman Bill Gates announced his intent to relinquish his Microsoft day-to-day responsibilities in July 2008. In his role as CSA Ozzie is responsible for oversight of the company's technical strategy and product architecture. Ozzie is also directing development of the company's next-generation software services platform.
Previously, Ozzie was chief technical officer from April 2005 to June 2006. He assumed that role in April 2005 after Microsoft acquired Groove Networks, a next-generation collaboration software company he formed in 1997.
Prior to Groove, Ozzie was a founder and president of Iris Associates, where he created and led the development of Lotus Notes. Before Iris, he contributed to the development of Lotus Symphony and Software Arts' TK!Solver and VisiCalc, and was involved in early distributed operating systems development at Data General Corp."

The past: Keith Curtis (just for OSS proposals)
Keith .. WHO ???
Yes Mr. Curtis who did work for MicroSoft in the past as a programmer did leave this company in the past and he started his own business as well as research. And he is coming to some conclusions which are mine as well: FLOSS Software will more and more be accepted, requested, polished, made money on (not always)...

Straightforward: A new UNKNOWN universe is about to be born and we the people can be witnesses of it.
(os.xcerion.com) as another example of a web based (XML powered) Desktop OS.

Today Google with its "Native Client" news which are focussing to link applications with full desktop power into the web.

I say: Let us embrace MicroSoft, if there efforts are truthfull and RELIABLE, everyone should be able to rely on it.

Alchemists were yesterday today and tomorrow we all have to look for a "sustainable/lasting" future in which biodiversity eg is a big MUST.

I am trying to set up a platform of global collaboration now (PHP) for about 10 years and one person cannot do anything like this. But together we could build a platform from which more and more people could benefit from: Free Access to every Article to users which are logged in a web of trust, supported by the best language translation programs based on nearly all platform which exist today: Haiku-OS, (GNU)/linux, MacOS(X), ReactOS, BSD, Singularity (Windows)....
The internet should not be about selling anything for any purpose to anyone.
http://www.kyeldon.net/drupal6.2/
https://www.launchpad.net/kyeldon
https://blueprints.launchpad.net/kyeldon/+spec/kyeldon.vision
http://www.kyeldon.net/ (non-prof current version)
Another World is still possible!
AndreasP
post.scriptum: I am from OLD europe, exactly Germany/Hessen/... cu

Reply Score: 2

Knowledge is power
by Nsongila on Sat 13th Dec 2008 18:44 UTC
Nsongila
Member since:
2008-12-13

If she really tried Linux, she should be the first to know that Linux is free. she can try Ubuntu, Centos, Fedora etc..
And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. From John 8:32

Reply Score: 1

darthchaosofrspw
Member since:
2008-12-13

This happened in Austin, Texas. This reminds me of a story about an elementary school student in Austin who was disciplined for visiting infowars.com and prisonplanet.com.

http://www.infowars.com/articles/sept11/10_yr_old_disciplined_for_v...

Reply Score: 1

darknexus Member since:
2008-07-15

Just goes to show that "rights" are an illusion. You have them only as long as those in power permit, and only under their conditions. As soon as their power base is threatened, they will take it away from you if they can get away with it. Simple as that. Cynical, but true.

Reply Score: 2