Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 12th Jan 2009 22:51 UTC
KDE When KDE 4.0 was first released, it was met with quite some criticism. Even though people saw the huge potential, the lack of functionality and stability, as well as quite a few bugs detracted from the experience. The KDE developers continued to work on implementing their relatively radical vision, and with the release of KDE 4.2 creeping ever closer, it seems they're well on their way.
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it IS getting better
by stabbyjones on Mon 12th Jan 2009 23:49 UTC
stabbyjones
Member since:
2008-04-15

I haven't been a fulltime KDE user before but i have played around with each 4.x release and sure enough it's been getting better.

4.1 was a massive jump over the original release and hopefully 4.2 is a massive leap over that. While i still use GNOME on all my computers i'll be keeping an install of KDE4 around on my desktop.

http://pkg-kde.alioth.debian.org/kde4.html

The Debian KDE team have got backports for lenny but are not accepting bug reports.

Reply Score: 4

RE: it IS getting better
by da_Chicken on Tue 13th Jan 2009 00:07 UTC in reply to "it IS getting better"
da_Chicken Member since:
2006-01-01

4.1 was a massive jump over the original release and hopefully 4.2 is a massive leap over that.

It sure is. I'm currently tracking the KDE 4.2 development snapshots for Debian (unofficial but packaged by members of Debian Qt/KDE Maintainers team).

http://kde42.debian.net/

Reply Score: 3

A Question
by cjcoats on Tue 13th Jan 2009 12:32 UTC in reply to "RE: it IS getting better"
cjcoats Member since:
2006-04-16

Can you set it up to give you the application and window list menus for a mouse-click in the root window (what you control in KDE3 by ControlCenter > Desktop > Behavior > Mouse Button Actions)?

I never was able to find any way of getting them in Mandriva's edition of KDE 4.1.3, which for me is a show-stopper.

This is the first time I've not been able to get application menus by clicking in the root window since at least OL(V)WM on SPARC2's back in the early Nineties. KDE3 had the best scheme I had found in more than fifteen years, and then they seem to be gone entirely in 4.1.

What gives?

Reply Score: 3

RE: A Question
by lemur2 on Tue 13th Jan 2009 14:12 UTC in reply to "A Question"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

Can you set it up to give you the application and window list menus for a mouse-click in the root window (what you control in KDE3 by ControlCenter > Desktop > Behavior > Mouse Button Actions)?

I never was able to find any way of getting them in Mandriva's edition of KDE 4.1.3, which for me is a show-stopper.

This is the first time I've not been able to get application menus by clicking in the root window since at least OL(V)WM on SPARC2's back in the early Nineties. KDE3 had the best scheme I had found in more than fifteen years, and then they seem to be gone entirely in 4.1.

What gives?


Your desired feature doesn't seem to be in the planning for KDE 4.2

http://techbase.kde.org/Schedules/KDE4/4.2_Feature_Plan

Since we are now at schedule point:
# 1.13 January 13th, 2009: Release KDE 4.2 RC 1

http://techbase.kde.org/Schedules/KDE4/4.2_Release_Schedule

it doesn't appear as though your requirement is planned.

Did you submit a request for it to the KDE project at any point?

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: it IS getting better
by utumno on Tue 13th Jan 2009 17:02 UTC in reply to "RE: it IS getting better"
utumno Member since:
2008-02-10

I am trying to use this repository (sid 386 here), but looks like I first have to set up some pinning from experimental, right?

Could you enlighten me how can I set up the pinning?

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: it IS getting better
by da_Chicken on Tue 13th Jan 2009 22:27 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: it IS getting better"
da_Chicken Member since:
2006-01-01

Yup. I followed the pinning instructions for KDE 4.1 in Debian. Here's the link. Have fun. ;)

http://pkg-kde.alioth.debian.org/experimental.html

Reply Score: 2

RE: it IS getting better
by obsidian on Wed 14th Jan 2009 07:05 UTC in reply to "it IS getting better"
obsidian Member since:
2007-05-12

Agreed!

I've just installed 4.2 RC1 and it feels rock-solid. The KDE team have made huge progress in
the last year, and they've *really* nailed it this
time!

Reply Score: 4

...
by Hiev on Tue 13th Jan 2009 00:58 UTC
Hiev
Member since:
2005-09-27

In the "Network settings" dialog, shouldn't the buttons order be "apply - OK- Cancel"?

Reply Score: 3

Comment by cmost
by cmost on Tue 13th Jan 2009 02:54 UTC
cmost
Member since:
2006-07-16

KDE 4.x has been improving with each point release. I used to be a longtime KDE user and only switched to Gnome when I started using Ubuntu back in the day (circa 2005 or so) and have stuck with it ever since; switching back to my preferred Debian (by way of Parsix.) I've been watching the KDE 4 development with interest, however, because KDE was always the power user's desktop compared to the more simplified Gnome and I ultimately prefer it. I firmly believe that KDE 4.3 will truly be something to reckon with. :-) The old adage "good things come to those who wait" comes to mind when considering the trials and tribulations of KDE 4 testers. Hang in there guys...the payoff will be worth it!

Reply Score: 5

v RE: Comment by cmost
by jjmckay on Tue 13th Jan 2009 06:23 UTC in reply to "Comment by cmost"
RE[2]: Comment by cmost
by Laurence on Tue 13th Jan 2009 09:41 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by cmost"
Laurence Member since:
2007-03-26

Yeah I know, it will always improve! I know. But it doesn't stabilize for long. (incidently, kde 3 is mostly stabilized... nice)


I'm a full time KDE4 user and I happen to think KDE4 is already mostly stabilized.

In fact there's only one bug I experience (Switching folder views on a mounted CIFS directory causes dolphin to crash - however that might be as much down to the CIFS connection / server as it is down to dolphin)

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: Comment by cmost
by MightyPenguin on Tue 13th Jan 2009 18:37 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by cmost"
MightyPenguin Member since:
2005-11-18

I think most people aren't complaining about bugs with KDE4 anymore, it's mostly about features and apps.

I use it fulltime and there are still some desktop things that aren't fully there yet. I guess this really shouldn't be too surprising because it was KDE 3.3 or 3.4 that really started to have the polish for that major release.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Comment by cmost
by lemur2 on Tue 13th Jan 2009 22:04 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by cmost"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

I think most people aren't complaining about bugs with KDE4 anymore, it's mostly about features and apps.

I use it fulltime and there are still some desktop things that aren't fully there yet. I guess this really shouldn't be too surprising because it was KDE 3.3 or 3.4 that really started to have the polish for that major release.


What things aren't there?

Remember that you can run KDE4 applications, KDE3 applications, QT applications (such as VLC and SMPlayer), GTK+ applications (such as OpenOffice, Firefox and Thunderbird), LSB-compliant desktop applets and in addition plasmoids, Mac OSX widgets and Google desktop widgets out of the box in an integrated manner.

Edited 2009-01-13 22:13 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Comment by cmost
by _txf_ on Tue 13th Jan 2009 09:57 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by cmost"
_txf_ Member since:
2008-03-17

By comparison...the latest gnome is ALSO the one to get. The difference here is that kde currently progresses far more between releases than gnome.

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: Comment by cmost
by lemur2 on Tue 13th Jan 2009 10:24 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by cmost"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

By comparison...the latest gnome is ALSO the one to get. The difference here is that kde currently progresses far more between releases than gnome.


While that is true, the real "secret" is that KE4 is the only desktop for Linux that utilises the GPU to render the desktop. As long as the system has a GPU and driver for Linux that is working, KDE4 is far and away the fastest desktop available for Linux, beating out even the "lightweight" desktops for speed.

KDE4 is not only innovating much faster than GNOME, and already is more powerful than GNOME, it has also opened up a considerable performance gap over GNOME on the same hardware.

Edited 2009-01-13 10:24 UTC

Reply Score: 5

RE[4]: Comment by cmost
by Thom_Holwerda on Tue 13th Jan 2009 10:31 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by cmost"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

KDE4 is not only innovating much faster than GNOME, and already is more powerful than GNOME, it has also opened up a considerable performance gap over GNOME on the same hardware.


Wow, lemur2 and I agree. I need to lay down on the caffeine.

KDE 4 is where the innovation lies when it comes to Free software desktops. They're the ones doing new things, being radical, and getting slammed for it, recovering, and improving themselves. I might not like all the design decisions in KDE 4, but my god, I'm so happy that they at least have the guts to be different and try something new.

GNOME could learn a great deal from them.

Reply Score: 8

RE[5]: Comment by cmost
by leos on Tue 13th Jan 2009 16:02 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by cmost"
leos Member since:
2005-09-21

I might not like all the design decisions in KDE 4, but my god, I'm so happy that they at least have the guts to be different and try something new.

GNOME could learn a great deal from them.


I don't know. I think it could be taken both ways. KDE is going new directions and trying out different ideas. That's good, but like you said, the result won't be to everyone's liking. So perhaps it is better that Gnome does not learn much from KDE, and continues on their path.

Then KDE is truly different from Gnome, and people can make a choice. Personally I choose KDE, but I don't think that Gnome should abandon their way because of any changes in KDE.

Reply Score: 4

RE[4]: Comment by cmost
by _txf_ on Tue 13th Jan 2009 11:32 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by cmost"
_txf_ Member since:
2008-03-17

Wrong...Seeing as gtk uses cairo and cairo uses xrender then it also uses the gpu to "render" the desktop.

By contrast in the upcoming Qt (4.5) the recommended backend is the raster (not native X11/xrender) because it is slower (fastest is opengl, but it has accuracy issues).

This isn't a question of speed, but more of features and stability and innovation. Whilst I love kde 4 I will NEVER claim it is the fastest, at least not yet.

Everything else is pretty much true

Edited 2009-01-13 11:35 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: Comment by cmost
by lemur2 on Tue 13th Jan 2009 12:57 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by cmost"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

Wrong...Seeing as gtk uses cairo and cairo uses xrender then it also uses the gpu to "render" the desktop.


You are right about gtk+ and cairo, and the fact that cairo claims to use hardware acceleration when available.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairo_(graphics)#Notable_usage

However, I don't see GNOME itself listed as one of the notable applications using cairo. (This doesn't however mean that the GNOME desktop isn't accelerated by the GPU via gtk+ via cairo ... I just can't see any direct claim that it does improve from the situation in 2004

http://people.redhat.com/otaylor/guadec5/

specifically by employing the GPU. Are any of Pango, GNOMECanvas and GDK still in use?).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNOME#Releases

What I can see is that some Mono-dependent applications, such as Tomboy notes, is listed as being part of GNOME releases since 2006.

Perhaps the inclusion and reliance on Mono is what makes GNOME slower then?

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Comment by cmost
by _txf_ on Tue 13th Jan 2009 13:14 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by cmost"
_txf_ Member since:
2008-03-17

the widgets are drawn using cairo, so they are accelerated if a particular cairo function is supported by xrender. In case you don't know most xrender functions use the 3d engine of a gpu to draw.

And yes It can be slower, but I haven't really noticed unless trying to resize a composited window

Edited 2009-01-13 13:17 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Comment by cmost
by lemur2 on Tue 13th Jan 2009 13:50 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Comment by cmost"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

the widgets are drawn using cairo, so they are accelerated if a particular cairo function is supported by xrender. In case you don't know most xrender functions use the 3d engine of a gpu to draw.

And yes It can be slower, but I haven't really noticed unless trying to resize a composited window


In KDE4 rendering is fast enough so that, when trying to resize a Window, for the first time ever on Linux that I have noticed the entire Window is continuously redrawn at various sizes, and not just the outline of the Window at the new sizes.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Comment by cmost
by spaceLem on Tue 13th Jan 2009 13:46 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by cmost"
spaceLem Member since:
2007-07-26

While that is true, the real "secret" is that KE4 is the only desktop for Linux that utilises the GPU to render the desktop. As long as the system has a GPU and driver for Linux that is working, KDE4 is far and away the fastest desktop available for Linux, beating out even the "lightweight" desktops for speed.


Sorry, but GNOME also uses GPU acceleration. (It doesn't always come switched though, and the difference in speed is amazing). You can replace the no-thrills Metacity WM with another much flashier one like Compiz, which really shows off just what hardware acceleration can do.

Interestingly, the FSF are pushing for 100% free distributions and demand the removal of GLX, which would result in GNU/Linux being perceived as notably slower, a move which could only hurt its adoption. Still, Stallman knows best.

KDE4 is not only innovating much faster than GNOME, and already is more powerful than GNOME, it has also opened up a considerable performance gap over GNOME on the same hardware.


That is very subjective. While GNOME certainly needs some work, it is nowhere near as badly written as KDE supporters always seem to claim, and there is a lot of functionality present. Also it doesn't hurt my eyes when I try to use it ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Comment by cmost
by lemur2 on Tue 13th Jan 2009 13:59 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by cmost"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

Interestingly, the FSF are pushing for 100% free distributions and demand the removal of GLX, which would result in GNU/Linux being perceived as notably slower, a move which could only hurt its adoption. Still, Stallman knows best.


This issue is all fixed now, surely?

http://www.osnews.com/story/20740/FSF_SGI_Cooperated_to_Resolve_Lic...

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Comment by cmost
by spaceLem on Tue 13th Jan 2009 14:13 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by cmost"
spaceLem Member since:
2007-07-26

"Interestingly, the FSF are pushing for 100% free distributions and demand the removal of GLX, which would result in GNU/Linux being perceived as notably slower, a move which could only hurt its adoption. Still, Stallman knows best.


This issue is all fixed now, surely?

http://www.osnews.com/story/20740/FSF_SGI_Cooperated_to_Resolve_Lic...
"

http://www.fsf.org/news/thank-you-sgi

Yes, I may have been somewhat hasty in that reply. It appears that the FSF have given their approval, and the proof is that gNewSense will be adding GLX back in (although they haven't removed it from their FAQ yet).

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Comment by cmost
by _txf_ on Tue 13th Jan 2009 15:03 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by cmost"
_txf_ Member since:
2008-03-17

I should correct both you and lemur2.

Using (opengl) compositing DOES NOT make things faster. It only makes things prettier and smoother making it appear faster.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Comment by cmost
by spaceLem on Tue 13th Jan 2009 15:34 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by cmost"
spaceLem Member since:
2007-07-26

Using (opengl) compositing DOES NOT make things faster. It only makes things prettier and smoother making it appear faster.


I'm not sure you're referring to the same thing I am.

Turn acceleration off, load up Fluxbox (a minimal yet highly configurable window manager), and start Firefox with a number of tabs. Switch between desktops and watch as Fluxbox lags as you go past Firefox (which is trying to render everything). Try dragging round an xterm (this is an extremely basic window), and you'll see it judder as it draws.

Now try the same again, only with acceleration on. This time, there is no lag as you switch past Firefox, and windows move smoothly.

The exact same thing applies to GNOME, you can still get the speed boost from allowing the graphics card to draw your windows. Compositing only gives you some flashy extras, which a recent graphics card should handle easily.

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: Comment by cmost
by _txf_ on Tue 13th Jan 2009 15:55 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Comment by cmost"
_txf_ Member since:
2008-03-17

I think I am. It only appears faster. When you use a compositing manager you are merely dragging an opengl texture around. Without compositing you're actually dragging the x pixmap.

hence "glx_texture_from_pixmap". Before they get turned into textures they are x pixmaps which have to be drawn (raster,xrender etc). Considering this, the widgets inside the texture will only be as fast as it would be without compositing. SLow/laggy draws without compositing can be attributed to the fact that it isn't buffering the image offscreen and showing it all at once.

If it is laggy when there is no compositing manager is either due to visual trickery, or because something isn't right.

Edited 2009-01-13 15:59 UTC

Reply Score: 4

RE[6]: Comment by cmost
by leos on Tue 13th Jan 2009 16:07 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by cmost"
leos Member since:
2005-09-21

I should correct both you and lemur2.

Using (opengl) compositing DOES NOT make things faster. It only makes things prettier and smoother making it appear faster.


That's correct. Lubos Lunak, the primary developer of Kwin (which does the window management and desktop effects on KDE) says that desktop effects make everything slower. Seems smoother, but is really slower.

Reply Score: 4

RE[7]: Comment by cmost
by lemur2 on Tue 13th Jan 2009 21:58 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Comment by cmost"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

"I should correct both you and lemur2.

Using (opengl) compositing DOES NOT make things faster. It only makes things prettier and smoother making it appear faster.


That's correct. Lubos Lunak, the primary developer of Kwin (which does the window management and desktop effects on KDE) says that desktop effects make everything slower. Seems smoother, but is really slower.
"

The desktop effects do make everything slower ... so turn them off (especially on a slower system). You will then be using the GPU acceleration to render the widgets, fonts and images and do anti-aliasing exclusively. This is far faster than using software libraries for the same purposes, and so it speeds up the desktop.

I run KDE4 with desktop effects turned off on my little netbook machine. It runs about the same speed (or perhaps a little faster) than a lightweight desktop such as LXDE.

The Xrender acceleration is not about the desktop effects ... it is all about rendering of graphics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xrender

Benchmarks show this renders graphics several times faster than doing it in software (unless you were using the previous releases of the nvidia binary driver where it was several times slower).

Edited 2009-01-13 22:10 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Comment by cmost
by vivainio on Tue 13th Jan 2009 20:42 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by cmost"
vivainio Member since:
2008-12-26


While GNOME certainly needs some work, it is nowhere near as badly written as KDE supporters always seem to claim,


Gnome may have more "usability" effort poured into it, but I beg to differ on the "badly written" part. It's not that Gnome developers as such are doing bad work (they aren't - Gnome apps have that "professional" touch KDE apps often lack) - but it's the fact that they actually *voluntarily* stick to C and GObject (through using raw C binding for Gtk+) that worries me. Surely, the code base will become resistant to change, and will drive non-paid developers away, leading to general decay of the whole project. Not to mention general unstability and bloat of the programs themselves.

Yeah, I know there are C++ bindings - but if they were any good, surely people would not be churning C code, right? I won't go into Python (and other VHLL) bindings here, since they are comparable to the ones of Qt... but really, if you are looking this from C/C++ side, Gnome has very little going for it (apart from the license, a matter that I also follow with keen interest - if Nokia is considering easing the GPL stranglehold on S60 Qt, there could be changes for X11 Qt as well, to bolster Maemo Qt development).

KDE is set to eat Gnome's lunch some time during 4.x cycle, but that time obviously isn't here yet. But once 4.x goes stable, it's at a much better position than Gnome will be at that time.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Comment by cmost
by sbergman27 on Tue 13th Jan 2009 21:16 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by cmost"
sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

KDE is set to eat Gnome's lunch some time during 4.x cycle, but that time obviously isn't here yet. But once 4.x goes stable, it's at a much better position than Gnome will be at that time.

Two things.

Firstly, I'm not sure that this "eating their lunch" attitude is particularly constructive or good for open source.

Secondly, "that time" is not likely ever to come, because KDE is pushing in a completely different direction, and trying to appeal to different users, than is Gnome. If I go 100km east and you go 200km south, are you ahead of me? You said it yourself. QT already has the technical advantages over GTK+ and has for some time. But it is Gnome that has "that professional touch", as you put it. And Gnome has paid all the attention to detail, benefited from the formal real world usability testing, and made all the tough decisions in order to excel in usability. KDE has paid the requisite lip service to usability which is required as part of good PR... but that's about as far as it's gone. Which is, of course, perfectly fine with its current user base, who would be very upset if KDE started caring about usability. The new bells and whistles in QT4/KDE4 are not likely to change that situation.

I'm happy for current KDE users that KDE4 is stabilizing. But it's silly to think that KDE4 is going to change the fundamental dynamic.

Edited 2009-01-13 21:18 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Comment by cmost
by lemur2 on Tue 13th Jan 2009 21:44 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Comment by cmost"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

And Gnome has paid all the attention to detail, benefited from the formal real world usability testing, and made all the tough decisions in order to excel in usability.


Excuse me? You really think the default GNOME file open/save dialog box is useable?

Oh my.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Comment by cmost
by vivainio on Tue 13th Jan 2009 21:55 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Comment by cmost"
vivainio Member since:
2008-12-26


Firstly, I'm not sure that this "eating their lunch" attitude is particularly constructive or good for open source.

Duly noted.

I recall a while back when Havok Pennington, Miguel, Nate & others were having debates about the future of Gnome. Does stuff like this still get discussed?

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: Comment by cmost
by lemur2 on Wed 14th Jan 2009 08:42 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by cmost"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

but really, if you are looking this from C/C++ side, Gnome has very little going for it (apart from the license, a matter that I also follow with keen interest - if Nokia is considering easing the GPL stranglehold on S60 Qt, there could be changes for X11 Qt as well, to bolster Maemo Qt development).

KDE is set to eat Gnome's lunch some time during 4.x cycle, but that time obviously isn't here yet. But once 4.x goes stable, it's at a much better position than Gnome will be at that time.


An interesting development on the license front with Qt ...

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20090114-nokia-qt-lgpl-switch-...

Nokia Qt LGPL switch huge win for cross-platform development

By Ryan Paul

Nokia has announced plans to make the open source Qt toolkit available under GNU's Lesser General Public License (LGPL). This change could significantly boost Qt adoption, redefine the economics of cross-platform programming, and dramatically reshape the landscape of commercial application development on the Linux desktop.


Interesting.

If Nokia follows through with this plan, then any program can link to the Qt libraries without being a GPL licensed program itself ... even closed source programs could do so without requiring a Qt developer license.

GNOME would no longer have even a theoretical "license advantage".

Reply Score: 2

lemur2
Member since:
2007-02-17

NVIDIA 180.22 x86/x86_64 Linux Driver Released

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Njk3OA

This version of the Nvidia binary driver for Linux has the infamous Xrender bug fixed. This will mean that KDE 4.2, when it is released in Linux distributions this year, will finally work as well on nvidia 8000 and 9000 series graphics systems as well as KDE4 has on other systems up to this point.

This driver (since it impacts a good number of systems), along with the considerable improvements in KDE 4.2 itself, will finally reveal to many critics the full (and impressive) power and innovation that KDE4 brings to the desktop.

Edited 2009-01-13 05:02 UTC

Reply Score: 6

tyrione Member since:
2005-11-21

NVIDIA 180.22 x86/x86_64 Linux Driver Released

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Njk3OA

This version of the Nvidia binary driver for Linux has the infamous Xrender bug fixed. This will mean that KDE 4.2, when it is released in Linux distributions this year, will finally work as well on nvidia 8000 and 9000 series graphics systems as well as KDE4 has on other systems up to this point.

This driver (since it impacts a good number of systems), along with the considerable improvements in KDE 4.2 itself, will finally reveal to many critics the full (and impressive) power and innovation that KDE4 brings to the desktop.


Running my system with the 8600 GTS

Option "BackingStore" "true"
# Option "AllowSHMPixmaps" "true"

Enabling AllowSHMPixmaps with KDE 4.1.96 [Debian Experimental] crashes X when one select SystemSettings.

It's noted in the release notes.

BackingStore is still disabled, at the driver, but enabling the option won't crash X. It just gets ignored.

(II) NVIDIA(0): Initialized GPU GART.
(II) NVIDIA(0): Setting mode "1600x1200_75+0+0"
(II) Loading extension NV-GLX
(II) NVIDIA(0): NVIDIA 3D Acceleration Architecture Initialized
(==) NVIDIA(0): Disabling shared memory pixmaps
(II) NVIDIA(0): Using the NVIDIA 2D acceleration architecture
(==) NVIDIA(0): Backing store disabled
(==) NVIDIA(0): Silken mouse enabled
(**) Option "dpms"
(**) NVIDIA(0): DPMS enabled
(II) Loading extension NV-CONTROL
(II) Loading extension XINERAMA
(==) RandR enabled
--------

Loadable Modules:

Section "Module"
Load "i2c"
# Load "extmod"
# Load "freetype"
# Load "glx"
# Load "dbe"
# Load "dri"
EndSection

The driver loads most of the modules by default:

(II) "extmod" will be loaded by default.
(II) "dbe" will be loaded by default.
(II) "glx" will be loaded by default.
(II) "freetype" will be loaded by default.
(II) "record" will be loaded by default.
(II) "dri" will be loaded by default.

Reply Score: 2

For openSUSE users...
by elsewhere on Tue 13th Jan 2009 05:02 UTC
elsewhere
Member since:
2005-07-13

The KDE 4.2 packages are being moved from KDE4/UNSTABLE to KDE4/Factory. At this point, KDE 4.2 packages will remain in that respository, from current testing through release and updates.

UNSTABLE will now contain 4.3 development packages, which at this point are likely fraught with danger. Still, for those on the bleeding edge...

FWIW, I've been using the 4.2 developmental packages for a few weeks now, works a charm.

If you have been using 4.2 packages from UNSTABLE, change your repos ASAP. If you're not using 4.2, you're missing out.

4.2 will be a solid release, but I'm already getting envious of the work going into 4.3... ;)

Reply Score: 4

A Gnome-to-KDE switcher
by 3rdalbum on Tue 13th Jan 2009 07:11 UTC
3rdalbum
Member since:
2008-05-26

I just switched from Gnome to KDE 4.1. I'm not sure where the howls of "It's not ready!" are coming from, because KDE 4 is pretty nice already. There are a handful of incongruities (no disc burning from the desktop, no drag and drop between tabs in Dolphin) but otherwise it's very stable, very usable, and very beautiful. I can't wait for 4.2.

Reply Score: 4

RE: A Gnome-to-KDE switcher
by pixel8r on Wed 14th Jan 2009 03:25 UTC in reply to "A Gnome-to-KDE switcher"
pixel8r Member since:
2007-08-11

I just switched from Gnome to KDE 4.1. I'm not sure where the howls of "It's not ready!" are coming from, because KDE 4 is pretty nice already. There are a handful of incongruities (no disc burning from the desktop, no drag and drop between tabs in Dolphin) but otherwise it's very stable, very usable, and very beautiful. I can't wait for 4.2.



Welcome to linux ;)

For lots of people (myself included) - every release of their favourite distro is keenly downloaded and installed and then once they get used to the new features, eagerly look forward to the next release and what it will bring. Some of us have been running kde 4.2 for months now, and welcoming the increases in features and most importantly stability.

Some may think this is a bad thing (always looking forward to the next big release), and maybe it is - but ask yourself how long ago it was that people did the same with windows. I used to be excited about win98, then win2k, then curious about xp, and now its just boring. windows releases dont seem to feature the same ground-breaking core improvements that linux releases do. Maybe its because linux isn't quite ready for the masses yet? i dunno - it works for me ;)

Reply Score: 2

wow
by SK8T on Tue 13th Jan 2009 08:18 UTC
SK8T
Member since:
2006-06-01

the wallpaper is amazing btw

Reply Score: 2

kick-off menu
by rockmen1 on Tue 13th Jan 2009 08:23 UTC
rockmen1
Member since:
2006-02-04

The only thing annoyed me in kick-off menu is the way how the "Application" tab is explored. I have to click to explore the sub-menu, and if I could not find what I want, I have to move mouse to leftmost and click again, go back to top menu and click another sub-menu. This is a worse experience than traditional k-menu.

Reply Score: 1

RE: kick-off menu
by bleedingedges on Tue 13th Jan 2009 08:38 UTC in reply to "kick-off menu"
bleedingedges Member since:
2008-09-08

[QUOTE]This is a worse experience than traditional k-menu.[/QUOTE]

True, but in true KDE spirit you can change it if you do not like it. If you ask me, Lancelot ( http://lancelot.fomentgroup.org/main ) should be the default KDE4 start menu. The current is just.. well.. not so good IMHO.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: kick-off menu
by lemur2 on Tue 13th Jan 2009 09:15 UTC in reply to "RE: kick-off menu"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

[QUOTE]This is a worse experience than traditional k-menu.[/QUOTE]

True, but in true KDE spirit you can change it if you do not like it. If you ask me, Lancelot ( http://lancelot.fomentgroup.org/main ) should be the default KDE4 start menu. The current is just.. well.. not so good IMHO.


If Lancelot is not available as a desktop widget by default, it is normally available from the repositories.

Open the package manager, search for keyword "Lancelot", and install it. Next time you restart KDE, you can then choose to replace Kickoff with Lancelot. This is a great improvement, and very easy to do.

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: kick-off menu
by Isolationist on Tue 13th Jan 2009 15:41 UTC in reply to "RE: kick-off menu"
Isolationist Member since:
2006-05-28

[QUOTE]This is a worse experience than traditional k-menu.[/QUOTE]

True, but in true KDE spirit you can change it if you do not like it. If you ask me, Lancelot ( http://lancelot.fomentgroup.org/main ) should be the default KDE4 start menu. The current is just.. well.. not so good IMHO.


For me the k-menu in KDE 4.2 is almost perfect, and would be 100% if the sub-menus didn't require a mouse click to access. This should at least be a configurable option - infact it might already be, but I've not seen it ;)

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: kick-off menu
by collinm on Tue 13th Jan 2009 16:32 UTC in reply to "RE: kick-off menu"
collinm Member since:
2005-07-15

i tried lancelot in kde 4.2 beta.... and i found it so so...

too much information is displayed...

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: kick-off menu
by lemur2 on Tue 13th Jan 2009 21:50 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: kick-off menu"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

i tried lancelot in kde 4.2 beta.... and i found it so so...

too much information is displayed...


If your preference is minimalist ... then use KickOff in the "KDE classic menu style" mode. It then behaves like the KDE 3 menus.

Reply Score: 2

Can't wait !!
by Googol on Tue 13th Jan 2009 11:12 UTC
Googol
Member since:
2006-11-24

for 4.2.1 ;)

Reply Score: 2

v Each release, the same old story...
by Jason Bourne on Tue 13th Jan 2009 14:58 UTC
_txf_ Member since:
2008-03-17

keep trolling...

YOU ARE NOT REQUIRED TO USE OXYGEN.

there are number of different styles available...

as far as I aware the only official search in kde 4 is nepomuk and strigi...don't know where you got the idea from.

There are currently 3 menues available classic,default and lancelot...3 levels for different tastes.

what "autocompletion" form?

what is incosistent about the ui? examples?

the fact that you won't even try 4.2 says a lot about your desire or ability to provide even accurate opinions

Reply Score: 6

segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

When 4.0 came out, the hype was "this is the release". When it was completely unusable, people started saying... "just wait for 4.1, it will be the one"...

You'll keep saying that as each point release is made and you'll end up gradually looking more foolish as people weigh up the alternatives. Keep going.

3 different searches engines or inserting this time an artificial intelligent auto-completion form. Each release the same old story.

Where are these three search engines? Oh, and saying that certain things are unnecessary isn't going to halt the march of new features being added to software. If you're happy with your CDE equivalent then that's great. The rest of the world has already voted.

Oxygen is one of the worst UI's around. I sincerely wanted it to be replaced, but KDE-dev is a parliament - not an enterprise pushing for market share.

No, it isn't. KDE is an open source project that tries to improve with each release until most people decide that it is good enough. Every open source project is like that.

And no, I won't even try 4.2.

Great. So you're eminently qualified to comment on it then?

Perhaps things will change when the majority of distros just drop KDE off as their default desktop.

I feel terribly sorry for you, because that isn't going to happen and it won't even if some distros want it to. Many people have been trying to predict that for the last eight years. No dice.

There are those of us out there who do not want open source desktops, and desktops in the Unix world in general, to go the way CDE did against Windows 95 and the Mac by forming committees, decreeing that certain things aren't necessary and mandating immature and inadequate software as 'standards' and 'defaults'. The tide won't go back I'm afraid.

Reply Score: 7

Michael Member since:
2005-07-01

When 4.0 came out, the hype was "this is the release".

No it wasn't. Even before it came out all the KDE guys were careful to explain that 4.0 would not be ready for prime time. All the news stories about the 4.0 release went on and on about this fact. You couldn't possibly have heard about KDE 4.0 without knowing about this.

The trouble was, Ubuntu had raised the bar for OSS projects being "ready". The user base for KDE 3.0 was largely hackers. The potential user base for 4.0 included many a clueless noob brought to Linux by Ubuntu. And so, everyone got their underwear in a twist because the major release of KDE still required testing, as if this were an entirely new phenomenon in open source.

Reply Score: 6

DeadFishMan Member since:
2006-01-09

The trouble was, Ubuntu had raised the bar for OSS projects being "ready". The user base for KDE 3.0 was largely hackers. The potential user base for 4.0 included many a clueless noob brought to Linux by Ubuntu. And so, everyone got their underwear in a twist because the major release of KDE still required testing, as if this were an entirely new phenomenon in open source.


Man, I couldn't have said it any better...

Reply Score: 2

Only small problems.
by BigDaddy on Tue 13th Jan 2009 16:09 UTC
BigDaddy
Member since:
2006-08-10

Really, my only complaint is the lack of KControl. I really don't like the "System Settings". I just don't find it as convenient.

I don't much care for the Oxygen style, but that is easily changed. I also miss Knemo.

Other than that, it is shaping up nicely.

Reply Score: 2

Same Old
by Anyone on Tue 13th Jan 2009 16:15 UTC
Anyone
Member since:
2005-11-16

Agree with most of what you Said. True though it's the nature of Free software, and what could keep the developers interest if that can't pursue their own idea's.

I tried 4.1.3 till start menu shelving thing gave me a headache. I read back a few comments there's an alternative-- good for that.
With all that supposed polish , You couldn't even hid the task bar , until was it Fedora 10 release modified it. I'm with LXDE for now. As a Blender user I'm not running and compiz effects.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Same Old
by SlackerJack on Tue 13th Jan 2009 16:47 UTC in reply to "Same Old"
SlackerJack Member since:
2005-11-12

Some things you should know here, for one Fedora didn't add it, they backported it from 4.2 and a few other features.

it takes time to learn new API's and tech, autohide may seem simple to a user and some panel features but it's not that simple.

Reply Score: 2

v About the "3 different search engines"
by Jason Bourne on Tue 13th Jan 2009 21:07 UTC
boudewijn Member since:
2006-03-05

If you prefer a KDE 3.x style menu in KDE 4.x, then _use_ it. It's been available for you for ages now. All ready to be used instead of the default menu. Your complaint is way out of date.

Reply Score: 4

_txf_ Member since:
2008-03-17

You might not like it, but Novell (the original author back in the kde3 days) did a usability study and found most users preferred kickoff to k-menu. People are always carping on how kde has bad usability.

If you're so for usability, then perhaps listen to what the usability experts say on this one, right?

Reply Score: 5

_txf_ Member since:
2008-03-17

making it usable is part of the plan to get to those 5%.

Basically here you have a double standard. You want usability from oxygen, but not from the program launcher?

You are losing all credibility with regards to your previous usability arguments (not that you had much to begin with).

You seem to belong to the sect of people that cry "this isn't usable" when you don't like the way something has been done, but completely ignore usability when it suits you.

Reply Score: 4

Hiev Member since:
2005-09-27

Well, IMHO GNOME ate KDE's lunch long time ago =), the next round will be GNOME 3 vs KDE 4. It will be a pretty much different scenario.

Reply Score: 1

_txf_ Member since:
2008-03-17

So you know better than usability experts? Did you commission a study to see what kind of menu people OTHER than yourself prefer?

You have yet to justify your opinions as to why either fail at usability, beyond the fact that you do not like them.

There are far too many backseat usability expert claiming their preferences as usability. You just happen to be one of them....

What is funny about this is that, myself I don't particularly like kickoff, but I'm not making a fuss especially when it is so trivial to get it changed. Same can be said for visual styles.

Either way why do you care...you're not going to use it, you said it yourself

Edited 2009-01-14 01:54 UTC

Reply Score: 4

lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

Double standard? Neither Oxygen or KickOff are really usable.


I have to agree here. I personally change the KickOff menu to Lancelot, then I install Klearlooks theme for KDE4 and select that, and also set GTK+ applications to use the Clearlooks theme at the same time.

Such a pity that the better options available for KDE are not shipped by default in most distributions.

Perhaps Mandriva's "Ia Ora" default window manager theme is the best default theme for KDE4 that I have seen amongst the distributions.

Edited 2009-01-14 07:26 UTC

Reply Score: 2

setec_astronomy Member since:
2007-11-17

First of, KickOff was used because it was ready when KDE 4.0 was launched (contrary to Tasty, Raptor and Lancelot. IIRC, Raptor was long considered to be the top candidate for the default menu plasmoid, but has not reached maturity as of this writing, so ... ) and because people tended to complain about the "cluttered" and "bloated" nature of the KDE3 menu. As far as I know, lancelot or one of the alternatives may end up being the default in future releases, as nothing is set in stone.

Truth to be told, I was no fan of the KickOff menu when SuSE introduced it in their 10.x series for KDE3 (once, I accidentally shut down the file server of our department because my muscle memory was incompatible with this menu layout, talk about embarrasment) and while I appreciate the fact that this menu is the result of usability studies, I reserve my right to like something else better.

Which, incidentially, is one of the big strengths of plasma: Mere mortal people (even one-man-developer teams) can write and maintain their own version of a menu if they want to do it, without forking the code base and without reinventing the wheel low-level style over and over again, without being constrained by what is already there and established, even without using C++ (which seems to be an important point for many people). The treshold to do something along the lines of what SuSE did back then (undertake a study, find something that is considered to be an improvement, implement it, ship it, distinguish itself from the other distributors) has been lowered considerably, thanks to the flexibility introduced by plasma.

I wonder how long it will take distributors to realise that they can stand out from the crowd of other distributors if they put more effort in the presentation of the desktop (as in more-than-a-shiny-wallpaper-and-a-different-color-scheme).

BTW: The KDE folks made a choice and shipped KickOff as default, for the reasons stated above. Why does your distributor ship it as default?

Mine does, because it is a distribution with a change-as-little-as-possible-from upstream policy.

Reply Score: 2