Linked by Thom Holwerda on Tue 20th Jan 2009 02:13 UTC, submitted by TassieDevil
Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu Apart from well-known editions such as the normal Ubuntu and Kubuntu, the Ubuntu project includes several other variations as well. One of those is Ubuntu Mobile, which targets Mobile Internet Devices and netbooks. While this release currently uses GNOME Mobile, Canonical's David Mandala has stated that they may look at Qt 4.5, which will be released under the LGPL, as a development environment.
Order by: Score:
Yay
by shiny on Tue 20th Jan 2009 03:38 UTC
shiny
Member since:
2005-08-09

Releasing Qt under LGPL might have been a very thoughtful move. Finally such good toolkit is getting the attention it deserves. I predict interesting times ahead.

Reply Score: 8

better using the EFL
by vtorri on Tue 20th Jan 2009 08:47 UTC
vtorri
Member since:
2007-03-05

for mobile software, using the EFL (set of libraries used by enlightenment) is a beter choice:

* small footprint (e17 itself can run on Treo with 32 MB of RAM)
* very fast (fast on set top box running at 200 MHz)
* beautiful gui (see http://calaos.fr/pub/video/calaos_media_music.ogg for a desktop app or http://www.rasterman.com/files/illume-freerunner.avi for e17 on the freerunner)

Reply Score: 1

RE: better using the EFL
by porcel on Tue 20th Jan 2009 10:17 UTC in reply to "better using the EFL"
porcel Member since:
2006-01-28

You don't get it, do you?

Qt is one of the few development platforms that is realizing the promise of write once, run in a huge number of platforms. Phones and mobile devices are maturing and their hardware specs are now such that the amount of apps that can be ported and ease of development clearly outweigh some presumed performance gains.

Reply Score: 7

RE[2]: better using the EFL
by vtorri on Tue 20th Jan 2009 15:25 UTC in reply to "RE: better using the EFL"
vtorri Member since:
2007-03-05

"You don't get it, do you?

Qt is one of the few development platforms that is realizing the promise of write once, run in a huge number of platforms. Phones and mobile devices are maturing and their hardware specs are now such that the amount of apps that can be ported and ease of development clearly outweigh some presumed performance gains."



well, the efl run on linux (xlib (with or without xrender extension), xcb (with or without xrender extension), opengl, directfb, fb backends), openbsd and freebsd, opensolaris, mac os x (quartz backend), windows xp (ddraw, d3d, opengl) and windows ce (gdi, ddraw, fb and gapi backends). And someone will work soon on a symbian port). So the number of platform and backend is not that low

Edited 2009-01-20 15:32 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE: better using the EFL
by harryF on Tue 20th Jan 2009 10:17 UTC in reply to "better using the EFL"
harryF Member since:
2005-07-06

E17 is nice toolkit, but from the point of Ubuntu Mobile, what counts are the existing applications. PIM (akonadi), Browser, Plasma with Google Gadget support, Dolphin, Solid for quickly discovering HW, Qtopia's input methods etc. etc. make it easy to roll out something complete with fairly little effort.

Reply Score: 5

RE: better using the EFL
by netean on Tue 20th Jan 2009 11:24 UTC in reply to "better using the EFL"
netean Member since:
2006-01-08

looked at the EFL video running on Freerunner.

Did you notice that the device took nearly 2 minutes to boot up?
That's really quite poor. My Ipod touch takes a good minute and I think that is just ridiculous. 2 minutes is just way way too long.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: better using the EFL
by vtorri on Tue 20th Jan 2009 15:40 UTC in reply to "RE: better using the EFL"
vtorri Member since:
2007-03-05

"Did you notice that the device took nearly 2 minutes to boot up?
That's really quite poor. My Ipod touch takes a good minute and I think that is just ridiculous. 2 minutes is just way way too long"

I have noticed that, but the ipod touch has a proc running at 533 MHz, the freerunner has a proc running at 400 MHz. There is there a big difference. I also don't think that your ipod loads a whole window manager

Reply Score: 1

RE: better using the EFL
by segedunum on Tue 20th Jan 2009 13:33 UTC in reply to "better using the EFL"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Errrrr, because they're going to have to hack on this just as much as Gnome Mobile in order to get it to work properly?

Reply Score: 3

RE: better using the EFL
by diegocg on Tue 20th Jan 2009 16:07 UTC in reply to "better using the EFL"
diegocg Member since:
2005-07-08

QT is not just a graphic toolkit. EFL is nice in the graphic side, but it's just that. It can't even dream competing with QT.

Reply Score: 2

RE: better using the EFL
by phoenix on Tue 20th Jan 2009 20:38 UTC in reply to "better using the EFL"
phoenix Member since:
2005-07-11

for mobile software, using the EFL (set of libraries used by enlightenment) is a beter choice:

* small footprint (e17 itself can run on Treo with 32 MB of RAM)
* very fast (fast on set top box running at 200 MHz)
* beautiful gui (see http://calaos.fr/pub/video/calaos_media_music.ogg for a desktop app or http://www.rasterman.com/files/illume-freerunner.avi for e17 on the freerunner)


Okay, that covers the graphical side of things, but what about the rest of the stack? Database access, network communications, HTML rendering, JavaScript processing, and so on.

QT is a lot more than just a graphical toolkit. It is an entire software development framework.

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: better using the EFL
by vtorri on Tue 20th Jan 2009 22:16 UTC in reply to "RE: better using the EFL"
vtorri Member since:
2007-03-05

"Okay, that covers the graphical side of things, but what about the rest of the stack? Database access, network communications, HTML rendering, JavaScript processing, and so on"

* we have a database lib based on a berkely one. nothing more, though
* network communication: we have (sockets, ipc)
* html rendering + javascript : webkit uses our graphic framework (with the help of cairo, though)
* and a lot more, like qt or glib/gtk+

the EFL are not only a set of graphic libraries...

I don't want to troll, that will be my last comment, but please, before stating something about the EFL, inform you a bit

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: better using the EFL
by bnolsen on Thu 22nd Jan 2009 03:47 UTC in reply to "RE: better using the EFL"
bnolsen Member since:
2006-01-06

A big part of what needs to happen with QT is to replace out all the redundant crap already implemented in stdc++. Since Qt no longer must rely on locking in developers to make money the long term maintainability issue should be dealt with very soon.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: better using the EFL
by vivainio on Thu 22nd Jan 2009 18:23 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: better using the EFL"
vivainio Member since:
2008-12-26

A big part of what needs to happen with QT is to replace out all the redundant crap already implemented in stdc++.

Like what? The few container classes it implements?

The people really need to check what actually *is* in c++ stdlib. Hint: posix isn't part of that.

Reply Score: 2

RE: better using the EFL
by bnolsen on Thu 22nd Jan 2009 04:03 UTC in reply to "better using the EFL"
bnolsen Member since:
2006-01-06

Is efl ready for general desktop apps yet?
I really wish raster would have used a c++ subset. Hierachies andobjects in 'c' are really hackish

Reply Score: 2

the first one
by DirtyHarry on Tue 20th Jan 2009 10:34 UTC
DirtyHarry
Member since:
2006-01-31

This may become the first project that shifts away from GTK based technology. I suspect more will follow...

The momentum is here: the KDE 4.2 release, the Qt LGPL license...

Reply Score: 3

RE: the first one
by KAMiKAZOW on Tue 20th Jan 2009 10:48 UTC in reply to "the first one"
KAMiKAZOW Member since:
2005-07-06

This may become the first project that shifts away from GTK based technology. I suspect more will follow...

The momentum is here: the KDE 4.2 release, the Qt LGPL license...

Does Canonical have a time machine? If no, it can't be the first one.
A rather recent switch is VLC. It switched from wx Widgets (which wraps around GTK on X11 platforms) to Qt 4.

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: the first one
by DirtyHarry on Tue 20th Jan 2009 11:10 UTC in reply to "RE: the first one"
DirtyHarry Member since:
2006-01-31

Yep, you're right. But that's just a single application (a cool one!), and represents a complete project.

Anyhow, it is going to be interesting to watch the community react.

Reply Score: 2

v RE[2]: the first one
by nbensa on Tue 20th Jan 2009 12:12 UTC in reply to "RE: the first one"
RE[3]: the first one
by segedunum on Tue 20th Jan 2009 13:20 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: the first one"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

In what way?

Reply Score: 3

Canonical is in a problematic position
by KAMiKAZOW on Tue 20th Jan 2009 10:39 UTC
KAMiKAZOW
Member since:
2005-07-06

Canonical is in a problematic position, because Canonical does not do large-scale development (yet).
Hildon is mostly developed by Nokia and even though Nokia said that its GTK/GNOME development will not be dropped any time soon, Qt is getting way more attention.
So with the exception of some bug fixing that Canonical is capable of doing itself, Canonical does totally rely on Nokia. Another apect is that Qt already has a fully working telephony stack with Qt Extended (formerly Qtopia). I don't think that Nokia has any plans to write such a stack for GTK/GNOME.

Canonical could also look at Android, but honestly I don't think it's worth it. Android is somewhat successful and with Motorola's support will gain a bit more momentum, but Motorola struggles since before the financial crisis. Its market share is dwindling.
Qt reaches a larger number of people, either through KDE or through the upcoming Symbian+Qt Nokia phones, and thus Qt also reaches more developers.

Reply Score: 4

Schendstok Member since:
2009-01-20

What are the advantages fo Canonical in looking at Android? Android is (mostly) developed by Google. So that would put Canonical in the same situation as it is with Hildon and QT.
Nokia made both Hildon and QT available through very open license agreements.
Android is much more than Hildon or QT (comparable to Maemo, Qt Extended or S60), but QT really focuses on cross-platform development, Android doesn't.

Reply Score: 1

KAMiKAZOW Member since:
2005-07-06

Why are you asking me what benefits Android has? I think I made myself pretty clear that I don't think that Android has any advantages.

Reply Score: 2

They Have No Other Option
by segedunum on Tue 20th Jan 2009 13:32 UTC
segedunum
Member since:
2005-07-06

They don't have an option unless they want to try and hack Hildon and the whole Gnome Mobile disaster into something that works OK. That's going to be an insurmountable task. Gnome Mobile (GMAE) has been a complete sillborne disaster that has mostly been all talk as far as I can see.

Qtopia is the only viable option, and now that the remaining arguments is now null and void (the license and developing for nothing) there is nothing left.

Reply Score: 4

RE: They Have No Other Option
by segedunum on Tue 20th Jan 2009 16:02 UTC in reply to "They Have No Other Option"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Plus, what option do you have when you need resolution independence and a telephony stack now?

"The standard [resolution] for GNOME [apps] is 800 by 600, but not all apps are. We do a fair amount of work customising screen sizes. Our apps are optimised to fit 4.5 to 10-inch LCDs -- with and without touchscreens."


As for an Ubuntu Mobile GSM phone, "the big drawback is there is no telephony stack out there for us to use and there are certification issues".

Reply Score: 3

RE: They Have No Other Option
by vivainio on Tue 20th Jan 2009 17:24 UTC in reply to "They Have No Other Option"
vivainio Member since:
2008-12-26


Qtopia is the only viable option, and now that the remaining arguments is now null and void (the license and developing for nothing) there is nothing left.

QTopia is not released under LGPL, just Qt. This makes perfect sense. Why would Nokia LGPL a full phone environment? They want more developers, not competitors.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: They Have No Other Option
by segedunum on Tue 20th Jan 2009 19:10 UTC in reply to "RE: They Have No Other Option"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

QTopia is not released under LGPL, just Qt.

Hmmm, that came out a bit Pete Tong. Yes, only Qt has been LGPLed, so that means anyone would need to create their own stack on top of Qt - but what a head start it would have.

Even so though, I would still consider Qtopia regardless. It gives you a massive head start.

Why would Nokia LGPL a full phone environment? hey want more developers, not competitors.

They do sell one. Same difference really, and Nokia don't even use Qtopia.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: They Have No Other Option
by Morty on Tue 20th Jan 2009 21:33 UTC in reply to "RE: They Have No Other Option"
Morty Member since:
2005-07-06

QTopia is not released under LGPL, just Qt.


For what is discussed here, a free mobile software stack, that's not matter. Since QTopia essentially are a stack of GPL applications for mobile devices, on top of the embedded version of Qt. If you put the same application on top of the LGPL regular Qt, you get your free platform and your free applications for mobile devices.

Reply Score: 4

they do have another option
by yt9ikh on Wed 21st Jan 2009 14:12 UTC in reply to "They Have No Other Option"
yt9ikh Member since:
2009-01-21

I have used Qtopia-based devices and I hated them; they felt like Windows Mobile. Furthermore, the reason to run an Ubuntu derivative on a MID or handheld is to run standard Ubuntu software, not KDE. Qtopia doesn't even offer interoperability with X11.

If you're considering a switch to Qtopia, then you might as well just switch to Android. It's just as incompatible with everything else as Qtopia, but it's a lot better designed, a lot easier to program, and people are creating tons of software for it.

Reply Score: 1

v Bad if it segretates from Android
by Howie S on Tue 20th Jan 2009 22:06 UTC
KAMiKAZOW Member since:
2005-07-06

AFAIK Android uses GTK+ widgets rendered to the framebuffer.

No, it does not.

If UME opts for Qt, I'm afraid it'll be cornering itself off from the Android halo effect instead of capitalizing on it.

I'm sorry, but do you really consider a few Google fanboys on digg a conciderable halo effect?

Just thinking of market penetration, I think it's a safe bet that Android will be a dominant force in the not too distant future.

While the Open Handset Alliance officially has lots of members, so far only Motorola has announced to really be behind Android. All the others, incl HTC with the G1, are just testing waters and Moto's handheld market share is shrinking. Nobody knows for how long Moto will even offer mobile phones.

The Symbian Foundation also has many members. Symbian is actually used in many mobile phones. Qt is going to be made available for Symbian as well.

Qt also has a large and established developer community. The KDE project alone propably produced more code than all current Android apps combined.

Considering the recent buzz about Android already installable on the EeePC, and talk of future Netbooks running Android

It's installable because Android uses Linux and the eee is obviously Linux compabtible (eee's default Linux distro uses KDE/Qt, btw).
Talks about future Netbooks with Android just consists of rumors.

IMO Ubuntu Mobile Edition should align itself with Android's ascendence instead of producing a competing offering.

Qt (Extended/Qtopia) and KDE are way older than Android. Android is the competing technology with abslutely no relevant installed base right now.

Reply Score: 5

yt9ikh Member since:
2009-01-21

I'm sorry, but do you really consider a few Google fanboys on digg a conciderable halo effect?

I have owned half a dozen Nokia S60 devices and a few Qtopia devices. Both systems had horrible UIs: confusing menus, poor use of screen real estate, cluttered screens, horrible management of wireless connections, etc. Given this history, I think it is very unlikely that either Qtopia or Symbian will ever get a decent user interface.

The Android UI is much better designed, and it's much easier to program for. Android and iPhone are the first phones I have used in a long time that were both powerful and easy to use.

I think Nokia should just give up on Symbian and Qt entirely, otherwise Android is going to kill them.

Reply Score: 0

vivainio Member since:
2008-12-26

The Android UI is much better designed, and it's much easier to program for.


Compared to what? S60, of course, Qt, I don't think so. Do consider the cross-platform aspect - any development you are doing will have value outside your immediate target platform. It can be useful windows and linux desktop software, with some modifications.

Android was a breath of fresh air in stagnant phone platform market. I think that's what drove Nokia to buy Qt, and beef up Maemo. If I were a company, I would bank on Nokia's play currently - it will also benefit open source community at large.

When you think of it, Android may become a bit redundant with the upcoming Qt based phones. Qt is now a free and open platform, perhaps to a bigger extent than android (because of the cross platfrom aspect, and the avoidance of Java).

Reply Score: 2

KAMiKAZOW Member since:
2005-07-06

I have owned half a dozen Nokia S60 devices and a few Qtopia devices. Both systems had horrible UIs

Qt is a framework, not a GUI set in stone.

I think Nokia should just give up on Symbian and Qt entirely, otherwise Android is going to kill them.

Your crystal ball must be awesome. Does it also explain why Palm webOS does not kill all competition? Or the iPhone? Will Motorola's phone business even survive?

Reply Score: 3

yt9ikh Member since:
2009-01-21

Qt (Extended/Qtopia) and KDE are way older than Android. Android is the competing technology with abslutely no relevant installed base right now.

And where is the installed base for Qtopia? A bunch of obsolete media players and no phones? Qtopia had its chance in the market and it failed. And having owned a bunch of those devices, I can tell you that it's no accident that it failed.

Android has shipped 1.5 million phones already, and that's just one model with a single carrier.

Reply Score: 0

elsewhere Member since:
2005-07-13

And where is the installed base for Qtopia? A bunch of obsolete media players and no phones? Qtopia had its chance in the market and it failed. And having owned a bunch of those devices, I can tell you that it's no accident that it failed.


Forest for the trees.

Qt runs on S60. It runs on Windows mobile/CE. It runs on embedded linux. It runs on Windows. It runs on OSX. It runs on linux. it runs on Unix. It's an application framework that will bridge not only multiple desktop platforms, but mobile platforms as well.

Qtopia is simply an implementation that bundles Qt with a mobile linux platform and a stack of applications and services for mobile communications. Nobody is locked into using Tt's default configuration or interface.

Android isn't even in the same league. And frankly it's about to be taken over by Motorola. Given that Motorola jumped on Android to cut their dependence on Qtopia (which they're still using) after Nokia acquired Tt, it would be surprising to see Motorola maintain an open and accessible development effort on Android that would benefit other competitors.

There were supposed to be a dozen handsets on the market by now, and the iPhone was supposed to be in the grave, based on the hype Android generated. Now that hype is transferring to Palm with WebOS, and device manufacturers seem to be lukewarm to moving ahead with large scale Android investments.

Android has shipped 1.5 million phones already, and that's just one model with a single carrier.


It's irrelevant unless it's sustainable. Once Nokia Qt appears on the S60 phones, Nokia will be shipping that many in any given week. It will automatically become the largest mobile platform, simply by default. And it will be extended by the ability to target non-Nokia, non-S60 mobile platforms as well.

Nokia is not looking to generate marketing buzz and hype. This is a long term strategy targeting developers who value cross-platform and time-to-market development. And developers will ultimately drive the success of any platform. Nokia is gambling that by making the underlying platform somewhat irrelevant, they can emphasize applications and services to maintain competitiveness.

Qtopia is simply one of many possible Qt implementations, and it's a fairly robust and proven one. But Qt extends far beyond a simple mobile interface. And far beyond what Android has to offer at this time. This could be the first time I'll admit that Canonical is making intelligent, forward thinking decisions, rather than riding on buzz.

Reply Score: 5

KAMiKAZOW Member since:
2005-07-06

Android has shipped 1.5 million phones already, and that's just one model with a single carrier.

In terms of installed base among mobile phones 1.5 mio is nothing. The mobile phone market is incredibly huge.
How many S60 and Windows Mobile phones are out there? 500 mio? More?
Not only is the installed base of systems that can run Qt really big, don't discard the big deverloper community Qt already has. Qt is the same on phones and PCs. The KDE project is improving its Small Form Factor support. It's not ready yet (most work goes into Plasma for now), but just imagine that every KDE app -- be it simple things like games or vocabulary trainers or bigger things like KMail -- can be ported with great ease.

On Android basically every app has to be written from scratch due its non-standard Java dialect.

Reply Score: 3