Linked by Thom Holwerda on Thu 22nd Jan 2009 12:04 UTC
Legal Remember when Steve Jobs launched the iPhone, and held it up in the air, proudly proclaiming "Boy, have we patented it", followed by a massive applause of the adoring audience? It may seem like this wasn't just an empty claim, either. During the earnings conference call yesterday, the company hinted at possible legal action against Palm were the Pre to infringe on iPhone patents.
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Software patents are just stupid
by kragil on Thu 22nd Jan 2009 12:27 UTC
kragil
Member since:
2006-01-04

because they are just not working. If you think otherwise you need to educate yourself ;)

Reply Score: 7

someone Member since:
2006-01-12

I don't think software patents are involved here.

Reply Score: 4

MobyTurbo Member since:
2005-07-08

I don't think software patents are involved here.


Some of the patents may cover software, software controls stuff like multitouch, one of the patents (which is why, in spite of the G1 hardware allowing it, Google didn't do multitouch) as does hardware.

Reply Score: 2

Macrat Member since:
2006-03-27

I don't think software patents are involved here.


Nope. Not when Palm has hired away iPhone engineers from Apple with $200K+ signing bonuses..

Reply Score: 1

This just goes to show
by searly on Thu 22nd Jan 2009 13:00 UTC
searly
Member since:
2006-02-27

Obviously apple are worried about the palm pre ... and it also shows that software patents are stupid ... multi touch is not an apple invention anyway. Who looses out? the consumers and clients. Honestly i hope that no court will take apple's claims seriously ...the palm pre form what one can tell from the preview etc. has a lot more to offer than the iphone and has some very nice features ...

"but Palm seems to directly emulate touch interface that iPhone innovated"

again ... apple has not innovated multitouch ... they may have been the first to put it into a product, but htat is an entirely different matter

Edited 2009-01-22 13:05 UTC

Reply Score: 10

RE: This just goes to show
by Adurbe on Thu 22nd Jan 2009 13:15 UTC in reply to "This just goes to show"
Adurbe Member since:
2005-07-06

Trevor Baylis invented (and patented) the clockwork radio

the radio was already invented, as was the winding mechanism

the 'invention' was still his to patent as he proposed a new way of using those technoligies together

If you belive the clockwork radio should be able to hold a patent then so should the multi-touch interface (existing technologies proposed to be used in a new 'invoative' way)

also prior art is very important part of a patent application

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: This just goes to show
by searly on Thu 22nd Jan 2009 13:36 UTC in reply to "RE: This just goes to show"
searly Member since:
2006-02-27

And how exaclty is the iphone innovatively using the multitouch technology as supposed to earlier innovations? Zooming in and out of image/maps etc has been done before, putting it on a smaller device is hardly innovative ...

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: This just goes to show
by Adurbe on Thu 22nd Jan 2009 14:09 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: This just goes to show"
Adurbe Member since:
2005-07-06

And how exaclty is the iphone innovatively using the multitouch technology as supposed to earlier innovations? Zooming in and out of image/maps etc has been done before, putting it on a smaller device is hardly innovative ...


the manner in which you pinch (or un-pinch?) on the screen for example, as far as im aware, that was not used in the same way before. Do you have an example where it has been?

As detailed in my example, the clockwork radio clearly indicated, you dont need to invent all the bits for it to be patented. You need only use the technology in a new way

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: This just goes to show
by Thom_Holwerda on Thu 22nd Jan 2009 14:14 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: This just goes to show"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

the manner in which you pinch (or un-pinch?) on the screen for example, as far as im aware, that was not used in the same way before. Do you have an example where it has been?


So... If pinching can be patented... Does that mean I can patent moving my mouse to the "left" to move my "pointer" to the "left" of the "screen"?

I don't see a difference really.

Reply Score: 5

RE[5]: This just goes to show
by majipoor on Thu 22nd Jan 2009 14:33 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: This just goes to show"
majipoor Member since:
2009-01-22

So... If pinching can be patented... Does that mean I can patent moving my mouse to the "left" to move my "pointer" to the "left" of the "screen"?

I don't see a difference really.


You can try to patent it and your request will be rejected.

If you are really interested in knowing your facts (are you?), you should google a little bit to know which patents Apple has registered on the iPhone UI or hardware.

AFAIK, they have claimed to have 200+ patents which HAVE BEEN ACCEPTED.

You can argue whether patents are a good thing or not, but I don't see why other company would be allowed to sue over patent infringment and not Apple.

And I'm sure Palm has many patents too and would sue any company if necessary.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: This just goes to show
by spiderman on Thu 22nd Jan 2009 14:49 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: This just goes to show"
spiderman Member since:
2008-10-23

The patent on doubly linked lists has been accepted as well:
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/7028023/fulltext.html
It was accepted in ... 2006!
I learned linked lists in 1997 and they exist since the 70's or before...
It does not mean it is enforceable. It does just mean that no one bothered enough to go and show them the prior art. The patent just stands there and will be invalidated the first time someone tries to sue with it. It happened many times with other frivolous patents. The patent office accepts almost anything and they invalidate it afterwards when someone come to invalidate it.

Edited 2009-01-22 14:52 UTC

Reply Score: 4

RE[5]: This just goes to show
by Adurbe on Thu 22nd Jan 2009 15:05 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: This just goes to show"
Adurbe Member since:
2005-07-06

"the manner in which you pinch (or un-pinch?) on the screen for example, as far as im aware, that was not used in the same way before. Do you have an example where it has been?
So... If pinching can be patented... Does that mean I can patent moving my mouse to the "left" to move my "pointer" to the "left" of the "screen"? I don't see a difference really. "


the mouse has become ubiquitous BUT dont forget someone DID invent the 'move mouse right, pointer moves right' functionality. The inventor (in my opinion) should have the right to protect that invention and the r+d invested into its creation (this is primarily served by patents and copyright)

Remember that with all patents, if you can prove prior art then that patent becomes void

if you can find an example where "apple's pinch" was used before (as described in the patent) please publish it

Macworld previously had a feature on apple taking advantage of this patent 'way back' in 2007
http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/index.cfm?RSS&NewsID=18340

Reply Score: 0

RE[6]: This just goes to show
by spiderman on Thu 22nd Jan 2009 15:22 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: This just goes to show"
spiderman Member since:
2008-10-23

It is not only prio art that invalidates a patent. Obviousness does also invalidate a patent.
Let say I get an effective way to track eye movements with a webcam. I could patent the idea to use this eye tracker as a pointing device, but this would quickly be invalidated. Not because of prior art (I'm the first to track eye, so I'm the first who can use that as a pointing device), but because it is obvious.

Reply Score: 3

RE[7]: This just goes to show
by lurch_mojoff on Thu 22nd Jan 2009 15:48 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: This just goes to show"
lurch_mojoff Member since:
2007-05-12

How is "pinching", or even a camera tracking your eye movements, obvious? Especially "pinching" - give me one example of an object that you can you can increase in size or scale through the pinching motion.

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: This just goes to show
by Adurbe on Thu 22nd Jan 2009 15:52 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: This just goes to show"
Adurbe Member since:
2005-07-06

your statment is correct that in the US a patent must be "non-obvious"

your example however was a poor one as it is not 'obvious' to track your eyes to move a pointer

a better example would be along the lines of a patent 'for using a pencil to write'

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: This just goes to show
by Soulbender on Thu 22nd Jan 2009 16:10 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: This just goes to show"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

I could patent the idea to use this eye tracker as a pointing device


No you couldn't. Ideas are not patentable, implementations are.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: This just goes to show
by tupp on Thu 22nd Jan 2009 22:19 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: This just goes to show"
tupp Member since:
2006-11-12

the manner in which you pinch (or un-pinch?) on the screen for example, as far as im aware, that was not used in the same way before. Do you have an example where it has been?

Here is a history of multi-touch: http://www.billbuxton.com/multitouchOverview.html

Please see the last entry for the year 1991, "Digital Desk." The second paragraph reads, "Clearly demonstrated multi-touch concepts such as two finger scaling and translation of graphical objects, using either a pinching gesture or a finger from each hand, for example."

The Digital Desk pinching gesture preceded the Iphone by over 15 years.

By the way, note two entries down the "Simon" touch phone.

Also, to get a sense of multi-touch history, note that the first multi-touch system was the "Flexible Machine Interface" of 1982 (two years before the first Mac).

In addition, watch Jeff Han scale items on his multi-touch display at this February, 2006 Ted presentation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwGAKUForhM&feature=PlayList&p=2CB30...

The first scaling pinch occurs at 02:46, and he specifically mentions scaling with two fingers on a hand at 03:06. This is almost one full year before the Iphone.

Furthermore, multi-touch on handheld devices is obvious and was not invented by Apple. Here is an article regarding a Nintendo multi-touch patent that was granted on February 2, 2006 (again, almost one year prior to the Iphone): http://www.joystiq.com/2006/02/26/patent-application-reveals-ninten...

Patents for multi-touch gestures (by Apple and others) are ridiculous, as the of advantage most of these interactions became obvious very early in the development of multi-touch systems.

Edited 2009-01-22 22:21 UTC

Reply Score: 6

RE[2]: This just goes to show
by Beta on Thu 22nd Jan 2009 16:53 UTC in reply to "RE: This just goes to show"
Beta Member since:
2005-07-06

Trevor Baylis invented (and patented) the clockwork radio.

the radio was already invented, as was the winding mechanism.

the 'invention' was still his to patent as he proposed a new way of using those technoligies together


His ‘invention’ was a better method of producing energy from winding. That is the only thing that his patent should be able to cover.

If you invent another method for doing the same thing, it’s a new invention and not covered…

At least, that’s the original intention of patents ;)

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: This just goes to show
by bnolsen on Thu 22nd Jan 2009 19:34 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: This just goes to show"
bnolsen Member since:
2006-01-06

There's also the little bit about there being actual hardware schematics to precisely describe and show what was done here.

It's very arguable that these "multi touch" patents are algorithm only.

Why should touchpad manufacturers be punished by apple choosing to limit how their touchpads are used? Where's the innovation in that?

And how would a company be motivated to manufacture *anything* if some other company can patent how the device is used and lock out their potential customer base?

Edited 2009-01-22 19:40 UTC

Reply Score: 2

Comment by Noremacam
by Noremacam on Thu 22nd Jan 2009 13:18 UTC
Noremacam
Member since:
2006-03-08

If you can't beat'em sue'em.

Personally, I can't wait to see if/how palm responds.

Reply Score: 6

jabbotts
Member since:
2007-09-06

So, is it copyrights or patents that Apple is concerned about. "IP" alone is a buzzword meant to confuse two separate areas of law.

Reply Score: 6

v Seems like a reasonable patent
by PlatformAgnostic on Thu 22nd Jan 2009 13:40 UTC
BallmerKnowsBest Member since:
2008-06-02

But Apple can patent, for instance, the application of multitouch to a cellphone, and maybe even some aspects of their software that gives natural feedback to users.


So perhaps Palm holds a patent for "copy-paste functionality on a handheld device"? That would explain a lot.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Seems like a reasonable patent
by tupp on Thu 22nd Jan 2009 22:42 UTC in reply to "Seems like a reasonable patent"
tupp Member since:
2006-11-12

Don't know why you are getting modded down.


But Apple can patent, for instance, the application of multi-touch to a cellphone

That's an obvious application of existing technology, especially considering the release of the first completely touch phone in 1992 and considering that Nintendo was granted a patent for a hand-held multi-touch device in February of 2006 (almost one year before the Iphone).

Apple (or any other company) should not be able to patent something so obvious, regardless of the work they put into it.

Reply Score: 2

Bernhard Member since:
2008-11-12

That's an obvious application of existing technology, especially considering the release of the first completely touch phone in 1992 and considering that Nintendo was granted a patent for a hand-held multi-touch device in February of 2006 (almost one year before the Iphone).

Apple (or any other company) should not be able to patent something so obvious, regardless of the work they put into it.


Most patent offices are hopelessly overburdened with lots and lots of applications. That's why so many 'inventions' are granted with a patent in spite of prior art. ;)

Reply Score: 1

Moochman Member since:
2005-07-06

Here's a relevant quote from that seminal book on Interaction Design, Alan Cooper's The Inmates are Running the Asylum:

"If, as a designer, you do something really, fundamentally, blockbuster correct, everybody looks at it and says, 'Of course! What other way would there be?' This is true even if the client has been staring, empty-handed and idea-free, at the problem for months or even years without a clue about solving it.... Most really breakthrough conceptual advances are opaque in foresight and transparent in hindsight. It is incredibly hard to see breakthroughs in design. You can be trained and prepared, spend hours studying the problem, and still not see the answer. Then someone else comes along and points out a key insight, and the vision clicks into place with the natural obviousness of the wheel. If you shout the solution from the rooftops, others will say, 'Of course the wheel is round! What other shape could it possibly be?' This makes it frustratingly hard to show off good design work."

Few know this better than Cooper, a pioneer in the field of interaction design with an immense portfolio of clients. So whether or not you agree that Apple's innovations should be patentable (as a matter of fact I feel it's worse for "the greater good" as it tends to balkanize interaction paradigms across vendors and thus make end-users' lives harder), the fact is that you cannot objectively assess their level of obviousness.

Reply Score: 2

tupp Member since:
2006-11-12

Most really breakthrough conceptual advances are opaque in foresight and transparent in hindsight... Few know this better than Cooper, a pioneer in the field of interaction design with an immense portfolio of clients.

This rudimentary idea is obvious in itself and is a revelation only to those who have no experience with creative endeavors. It is a notion that usually is comprehended early on in the career of anyone involved in any creative discipline (music, writing, photography, filmmaking, product design, choreography, architecture, etc. -- not just software interface design).

Also, if anyone qualifies to be described as "a pioneer in the field of interaction design," it would be Donald Norman, not Alan Cooper. Norman's expertise is much broader -- he has a lot more experience with the interaction between humans and all objects (not just software). With "The Psychology Of Everyday Things," Norman literally "wrote the book" on product usability.


So whether or not you agree that Apple's innovations should be patentable..., the fact is that you cannot objectively assess their level of obviousness.

Of course, you can.

There are many generic ideas for devices which cannot be achieved because of some limitation. We all want flying cars, teleportation and replicators, but right now they are impossible or impractical. However, just because these items have not been commercially produced, these ideas are still obvious.

In addition, there are many ideas which are easily achieved, but which have uncertain value/appeal. Manufacturers have given us the refrigerator computer, the inside-the-egg-shell scrambler, and the "Bark Stop Professional": http://www.seenontv.com/prod-pages/lentek_bark_free.html

The multi-touch cellphone is a combination of these two types of ideas. The concept was out there and obvious. However, the production of a multi-touch phone was delayed, because, until recently, touchscreen phones have not been powerful enough to handle the software, and due to the dismal appeal of past touch-screen phones, manufacturers were reluctant to sink funds into the development and tooling of a multi-touch version.

Furthermore, the verdict is still out on the advantages/drawbacks of multi-touch phones and of touch-phones in general.

Edited 2009-01-23 17:52 UTC

Reply Score: 3

Moochman Member since:
2005-07-06

Apple's innovation is not that it championed the idea of a a multi-touch phone. It's much more about the little tweaks Apple put in to enhance usability. The way a flick on lists makes them scroll, and bounce back when they have reached the end... the way every app opening has a transition to let the user know what's going on... the way the screen automatically changes orientation when the accelerometer senses the phone is tilted sideways... the way the phone's screen turns off and the touch-screen locks when the proximity sensor detects that you're holding it to your face... the "slide to unlock" mechanism.... the way the onscreen keyboard senses which keys you're trying to press, even though the keys look like they're going to be too small... The way webpages are presented in desktop format and are easily zoomable via pinching or double-tapping... the way SMSes are presented as conversation threads... "visual voice mail"... These were all firsts with the iPhone.

True, the animation bits were limited somewhat on other platforms by lack of investment in technology on the part of other manufacturers... but most of the reason no one else did this stuff is simple complacency, and the notion that "this is as good as it gets".

The iPhone is a usability tour de force... Are you too blind to see that?

Edited 2009-01-24 08:59 UTC

Reply Score: 2

tupp Member since:
2006-11-12

Apple's innovation is not that it championed the idea of a a multi-touch phone.

Okay. So you admit that Apple did not invent the multi-touch phone. We are making progress.

Other fanboys: Did you get that? Please never again claim nor imply that Apple invented the multi-touch phone. Thanks!


It's much more about the little tweaks Apple put in to enhance usability. The way a flick on lists makes them scroll, and bounce back when they have reached the end...

This feature could have originated with Apple, and it is certainly an interesting animation (like wobbly windows, and the rotating cube), but does it actually add anything to the usability of the device?


the way every app opening has a transition to let the user know what's going on...

Are you implying that Apple invented opening app feedback?


the way the screen automatically changes orientation when the accelerometer senses the phone is tilted sideways...

Apple did not invent auto-rotate. That feature appeared on digital cameras years before the Iphone. Heck, I remember auto-rotating computer monitors in the late 1980s.


the way the phone's screen turns off and the touch-screen locks when the proximity sensor detects that you're holding it to your face...

Apple did not invent this feature. This problem has been solved in different ways since the first fully touch-screen phone appeared in 1992.

Here is a 2003, Nokia patent application for locking the touch-screen on a phone during an active call: http://www.patentstorm.us/applications/20050079896/fulltext.html


the "slide to unlock" mechanism...

Don't know to what you are referring, but it certainly sounds generic.


the way the onscreen keyboard senses which keys you're trying to press, even though the keys look like they're going to be too small...

Over the years, there has been a lot of non-Apple research into this problem. Probably, the best solution is to just make the buttons bigger with a horizontal keyboard.


The way webpages are presented in desktop format and are easily zoomable via pinching or double-tapping...

I doubt that the Iphone is the first hand-held device to display web pages in such a manner. Even if it were so, how innovative is it to merely copy what we have seen on our computers every day since 1993?

In regards to multi-touch, pinch scaling, that was first shown in 1991 in the Digital Desk system.


the way SMSes are presented as conversation threads... "visual voice mail"...

You really think Apple invented these?

My friend tried visual voice mail on one of my messages, and he called back, asking, "what did you mean by 'eat up Martha?'"


These were all firsts with the iPhone.

Whatever.


The iPhone is a usability tour de force...

Yes. The lack of cut-and-paste is an usability triumph.

Furthermore, it is an ergonomic breakthrough to have to tap nine times through the alternate keypad to merely create an ellipsis (...).

Reply Score: 3

Moochman Member since:
2005-07-06

No one is claiming that any one individual behavior is revolutionary..... Ever heard the phrase "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts"?

Obviously you're not going to be won over as you have too much anti-Apple bias. Whatever. No other smartphone delivered the same level of user experience at the time the iPhone came out. This may seem like a subjective opinion, but it is the main reason the iPhone is so successful and all touch phones that came before it were such duds.

Reply Score: 2

tupp Member since:
2006-11-12

No one is claiming that any one individual behavior is revolutionary..... Ever heard the phrase "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts"?

Ever heard of the phrase, "huh?"

You listed ten Iphone features, and then you claimed: "These were all firsts with the iPhone."

I pointed out that eight of those features appeared first on non-Apple products. I questioned the benefits of one of the features that might have originated with Apple. In regards to the other one, I said that I am not familiar with that feature, but I that it sounds generic.

You also claimed: "The iPhone is a usability tour de force..." Disregarding the Iphone's lack of tactile feedback, I mentioned just two of the Iphone's rather significant usability drawbacks.


Obviously you're not going to be won over as you have too much anti-Apple bias.

Whether or not I have a bias has nothing to do with the fact that Apple did not invent most of the Iphone features (as demonstrated above).

By the way, I do not have an anti-Apple bias. I do have an "anti Apple-fanboy" bias, especially when a fanboys ignore the facts presented.

Reply Score: 3

Moochman Member since:
2005-07-06

By the way, I would have thought that if you've read Norman's book The Psychology of Everyday Things you would have realized the obviousness of the obviousness paradox. That was practically the whole point of Norman's book: that what you classify as the only obvious and sensible solution is regardless implemented in a suboptimal way everywhere you go. Hence the solution is apparently not so obvious after all. Hence you can't objectively judge the level of obviousness....

Edited 2009-01-24 09:17 UTC

Reply Score: 2

Jon Rubenstein
by PowerMacX on Thu 22nd Jan 2009 14:15 UTC
PowerMacX
Member since:
2005-11-06

I find this a rather curious statement. There have been numerous phones out in the market already, including Android, that have taken several cues from the iPhone - some even go as far as to more or less copy the entire device. Still, Apple hasn't undertaken any action. Now that Palm comes along - they suddenly start chest thumping. Does this indicate that contrary to other phones, Apple sees the Pre as an actual threat to the iPhone's success?


I think it has a lot more to do with the fact that Jon Rubenstein, who worked at Apple for over 15 years and was the VP of the iPod division until mid-2006, is the one behind Palm's Pre. They are not exactly pleased about it. ;-)

Reply Score: 7

RE: Jon Rubenstein
by apoclypse on Thu 22nd Jan 2009 14:26 UTC in reply to "Jon Rubenstein"
apoclypse Member since:
2007-02-17

Exactly. Palm has hire Apple employees that worked on the iPod/iPhone and the Pre from what I've seen in videos is heavily influenced by the iPhone in more ways than one. So Apple may have just reason to cover their bases as in case Palm actually inadvertently infringed on their technology (regardless of innovation or not)due to former employees being involved with this new device.

I had a feeling this was going to happen the minute I saw the Pre in action, the fact the things like scrolling through pages works almost exactly like the iPhone, definitely puts up a red flag. Knowing Apple they are not looking to license any of their technology and I don't think Palm could survive Apple's full attention and weight if sued.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Jon Rubenstein
by libray on Thu 22nd Jan 2009 16:04 UTC in reply to "RE: Jon Rubenstein"
libray Member since:
2005-08-27

Good thing innovation is not the only determining factor with IP. If it had been, Palm, should have done something when other vendors started using its innovative touchscreen method for inputing data into a smartphone. But since they did not and instead let everyone else play it would be small of Apple to persue thwarting the Palm Pre at this point.

Reply Score: 4

damn lawyers
by ari-free on Thu 22nd Jan 2009 14:30 UTC
ari-free
Member since:
2007-01-22

instead of suing maybe they should give the iphone
a replaceable battery
a slide in keyboard
Flash
copy and paste
real multitasking
etc

Reply Score: 7

RE: damn lawyers
by majipoor on Thu 22nd Jan 2009 14:37 UTC in reply to "damn lawyers"
majipoor Member since:
2009-01-22

instead of suing maybe they should give the iphone
a replaceable battery
a slide in keyboard
Flash
copy and paste
real multitasking
etc


They can afford to do both ;)

But instead of expecting Apple to put anything you need on the iPhone, you should purchase a phone which has all the features you need and stop complaining about the so-called iPhone missing features.

And FYI, the iPhone has an excellent multi-tasking capability. Apple just forbid third party application to use it.

Edited 2009-01-22 14:46 UTC

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: damn lawyers
by BallmerKnowsBest on Thu 22nd Jan 2009 16:31 UTC in reply to "RE: damn lawyers"
BallmerKnowsBest Member since:
2008-06-02

But instead of expecting Apple to put anything you need on the iPhone, you should purchase a phone which has all the features you need and stop complaining about the so-called iPhone missing features.


Hahaha, yep. Those features aren't missing, they're just... uh, resting. Pining for the fjords, if you will.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: damn lawyers
by Fransexy on Thu 22nd Jan 2009 16:45 UTC in reply to "RE: damn lawyers"
Fransexy Member since:
2005-07-29

[q]
But instead of expecting Apple to put anything you need on the iPhone, you should purchase a phone which has all the features you need and stop complaining about the so-called iPhone missing features.


Yes, but the phone that fill my needs will be sued by APPLE

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: damn lawyers
by ari-free on Thu 22nd Jan 2009 18:32 UTC in reply to "RE: damn lawyers"
ari-free Member since:
2007-01-22

"But instead of expecting Apple to put anything you need on the iPhone, you should purchase a phone which has all the features you need and stop complaining about the so-called iPhone missing features."


but that's what I'm saying. Apple should lay off the new Palm because they're giving consumers what we want.

Reply Score: 2

Yes, the competition is good for Apple
by theosib on Thu 22nd Jan 2009 14:51 UTC
theosib
Member since:
2006-03-02

Often, competition is scary for a company because it cuts into their marketshare. But in this case, the competition does more to force the cellular carriers to loosen their stranglehold. Until the iPhone, American wireless companies artificially restricted us to a narrow range of middling technology, where it was most profitable for them and most restrictive for us. The iPhone forced them to deal with some better technology, and the competition will force it even further.

Reply Score: 1

argh...
by bile on Thu 22nd Jan 2009 15:29 UTC
bile
Member since:
2005-07-08

Apple doesn't want competition so it turns to the guns of government to threaten their competitors out of the market. Lovely.

Reply Score: 3

They Tried This Before
by segedunum on Thu 22nd Jan 2009 15:45 UTC
segedunum
Member since:
2005-07-06

Apple tried throwing their weight around in the 80s over Mac clones and look-alikes of the Mac OS and certain applications. They failed. It really doesn't matter whether you call it intellectual property or any other legally meaningles term, in the end it just costs you money and market share.

As for why they dropped this hint when Palm entered the arena? Simple. No one would really want to sue Google. Palm or an easy target, so the statement that they will 'go after anyone' is false.

Edited 2009-01-22 15:48 UTC

Reply Score: 4

Apple running scared?
by BallmerKnowsBest on Thu 22nd Jan 2009 16:17 UTC
BallmerKnowsBest
Member since:
2008-06-02

Awwww, sounds like Apple is afraid of Palm stealing their lunch. It certainly wouldn't be the first time that an over-priced, under-featured Apple product was driven out of the market by Palm (Newton, anyone?).

I must say, it really is funny to see that sort of attitude from Apple, after all of Jobs talk about "Oh, we don't want to use DRM in the iTunes store, but the big mean record companies force us to. It's just a huge coincidence that the DRM scheme benefits us too. Honest."

For all that high-minded BS, they sound like just another run of the mill patent/IP troll when push comes to shove.

Reply Score: 4

Legal warnings by Apple
by ncc4100 on Thu 22nd Jan 2009 16:24 UTC
ncc4100
Member since:
2006-05-10

I suspect the recent comments by Apple are due to a couple of events: 1) Another player (Palm) in what Apple thinks is their market and 2) the fact that Palm is an easier target than Google.

IMHO, #2 is real reason for Apples chest beating. Palm is more vulnerable than Google. Google has a lot of money that they can throw around for legal fees. I suspect the fact that Apple didn't go after Google was in part due to Google's monetary resources.

It will be interesting to see if Apple ever goes after Google. I doubt they will. However, suing Palm will be a much cheaper endeavor than suing Google. Also, suing Palm will help Apple test the waters regarding their IP claims.

Reply Score: 3

Pre Applefan...
by Ragged on Thu 22nd Jan 2009 17:46 UTC
Ragged
Member since:
2006-03-23

I was an applefan... But not anymore...

What are they doing. The G4/400 I bought was soooo solid, so well built... The iMac was plastic crap... Almost all went wrong, the harddrive, the ram the monitor were flickering... I was so dissapointed. And now, Apple sues here and there... I bought two iPhone's, one for me and one for my wife. But the Rotten Apple will NEVER have a penny from me anymore... Never... Crap Apple, Rotten Apple. I regret I paid all those $$$ to U... ;)

Even to use iChat I have to pay lots of $ to use it... Yearly... Crap! I installed Google Chat and used that instead. I will be Google Guy from now. My Norwegian Kroner will go to others but not Apple...

Bye.


(My wife will still have the iPhone, I guess... I will give mine to her sister...

And i Will buy a G1 or a Palm Pre.

Rotten Apple sucks... ;) I'm so dissapointed. (Sorry guys for my rant. But I really mean it. I thought Apple was different...

Reply Score: 1

RE: Pre Applefan...
by dragossh on Thu 22nd Jan 2009 21:47 UTC in reply to "Pre Applefan..."
dragossh Member since:
2008-12-16

Apple is a company. That means they want to make money. And that means they are not different.

I am amazed at how many people think Apple is "different". Yes, they have some great and innovative people, but that's it.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Pre Applefan...
by tyrione on Thu 22nd Jan 2009 21:59 UTC in reply to "Pre Applefan..."
tyrione Member since:
2005-11-21

Send yours to me. I'll be glad to develop on it.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Pre Applefan...
by Ragged on Thu 22nd Jan 2009 23:43 UTC in reply to "RE: Pre Applefan..."
Ragged Member since:
2006-03-23

Haha...

:)

Thanks for making me smile, though...

:)

Reply Score: 1

RE: Pre Applefan...
by Macrat on Thu 22nd Jan 2009 23:11 UTC in reply to "Pre Applefan..."
Macrat Member since:
2006-03-27

The G4/400 I bought was soooo solid, so well built... The iMac was plastic crap...


The plastic PowerMac G4 is somehow different from the plastic iMac?

Edited 2009-01-22 23:15 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Pre Applefan...
by Ragged on Thu 22nd Jan 2009 23:45 UTC in reply to "RE: Pre Applefan..."
Ragged Member since:
2006-03-23

Yes, the solid plastic of G4/400 always worked...

Reply Score: 1

RE: Pre Applefan...
by Moochman on Fri 23rd Jan 2009 15:28 UTC in reply to "Pre Applefan..."
Moochman Member since:
2005-07-06

What are you talking about having to pay to use iChat? You don't need a .mac/MobileMe account to use it....

Edited 2009-01-23 15:29 UTC

Reply Score: 2

Comment by joaomcarvalho
by joaomcarvalho on Thu 22nd Jan 2009 17:48 UTC
joaomcarvalho
Member since:
2009-01-22

I love their products, the new macbooks, the iPhone, the MacOS X... I don't have any of that products and I will never buy one if they keep on the same pre-monopolist behaviour.

Reply Score: 1

Pre Fear
by Ressev on Thu 22nd Jan 2009 21:20 UTC
Ressev
Member since:
2005-07-18

There are certainly a number of things that I liked about the iPhone/iTouch. However, Apple's silliness in not allowing certain 'well duh' features kept me from dolling out the cash for an iTouch. I've been wanting a new PDA and while the iPhone/iTouch could, conceivably, fill that need, it lacked a reasonably fast data input method and the iTouch oddly did not have Blue Tooth.

The G1 looked interesting, but I was not thrilled by the OS maker.

The Palm Pre, however, caught my attention immediately. It does not have a stylus input like the old Palm Pilots, but the physical keyboard certainly makes up for it by allowing faster and more accurate typing than the iPod or iTouch.

The Pre has what I want in it. The iPhone/iTouch does not and I think a lot of people are looking at the Pre in a similar fashion. Apple is justifiably worried.

So instead of suing, it should make a better mouse trap and improve the iPhone/iTouch instead of ruminating over suing someone.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Pre Fear
by dragossh on Thu 22nd Jan 2009 21:50 UTC in reply to "Pre Fear"
dragossh Member since:
2008-12-16

From what I've read, Apple has always been silly. And it will bite them in the ass again.

Reply Score: 1

Depressing
by kaiwai on Thu 22nd Jan 2009 23:34 UTC
kaiwai
Member since:
2005-07-06

Every time I see an article like this (be it from Microsoft, Apple or some other organisation) I can't help by fell a little Stallman'ish when it comes to these matters.

I don't want to make this post political but my respect (in regards to their great products) for Apple is slowly waning the more they go down this road of undertaking the kind of actions reminiscent of patent trolls. There is a fine line between protection of ideas from being pillaged by another company and just plain well using the legal system to crush competition.

If they are going to chase after the Pre, shouldn't they also chase after the new Blackberry Storm, and every other one out there. There is only a limited way one can navigate a touch device, to some how make claim that iPhone is any more unique to the numerous other touch interfaces out there ignores the reality of the computing world.

Like I said, my support for Apple is seriously waning at the moment; if they keep this up I might end up looking for something else instead of a Mac next time I upgrade. Ones computers purchases shouldn't be politically motivated but at the same time I can't but face the reality that Apple is becoming drunk on their own success to the point that they think they can do anything they like because of their size and bank balance. Ethics and morals are something that shouldn't be ignored simply because they aren't enshrined in law or enforced by the government.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Depressing
by elsewhere on Fri 23rd Jan 2009 06:07 UTC in reply to "Depressing"
elsewhere Member since:
2005-07-13

If they are going to chase after the Pre, shouldn't they also chase after the new Blackberry Storm, and every other one out there.


There's the rub. RIM has deep enough pockets to fight. Palm is on the ropes, and the Pre is their lifeline if they manage to succeed. Maybe they're just bitter about the Palm Pilot succeeding where the Newton failed, and they're looking for revenge.... ;)

It shames me that I love my iPhone as much as I do, because I generally disdain many of Apple's business practices. The iPhone isn't cutting edge and I'd hesitate to call it innovative more than evolutionary; it has many faults and doesn't really do anything revolutionary that other mobile platforms couldn't do, Apple basically managed to pull together many existing technologies and concepts together into a package that simply works well, which is something I'll admit that they generally have a remarkable ability to do. I'm still astounded that after all this time since it's introduction, the other major players have yet to produce a platform that appeals as much to average users. Certainly power users will point to some aspect of Android, Win Mobile, S60 or even BlackberryOS that is superior, but that's not the point. Apple broke ground and deserves credit for that.

The Pre was the first "iPhone killer" I've seen announced that actually piqued my interest. If it does what they claim it does, and works as well as the hype implies, I'll take a serious look at it. And for that I suppose I'm part of the reason that Apple would break their historical patents-are-for-defense approach and become aggressive. But it's still sad when well-heeled organizations choose the lower cost legal route for market protection rather than pouring resources into the innovation machine.

I wasn't a fan of Steve Jobs' style, but I wonder if Apple without him will become a case of the devil you know versus the devil you don't.

Reply Score: 2

Palm copying Apple?
by etosamoe on Fri 23rd Jan 2009 15:30 UTC
etosamoe
Member since:
2007-02-08

Try the other way around. Apple has a lot of nerve considering the similarities between the iPhone interface and the classic PalmOS.

* A grid of application launchers sorted into multiple screens.
* One application used at a time, occupying the whole screen.
* Four programmable "fixed" buttons at the bottom for commonly used apps.
* A "home" button to exit the running app, and return to the list of applications
* Built-in PIM functions accessible by third party apps
* A touch-sensitive screen for input and navigation.

Honestly, who's copying who?

Reply Score: 1

RE: Palm copying Apple?
by Johann Chua on Sat 24th Jan 2009 10:07 UTC in reply to "Palm copying Apple? "
Johann Chua Member since:
2005-07-22

You do realize Apple was in the PDA business before Palm with the Newton, right?

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Palm copying Apple?
by tupp on Sat 24th Jan 2009 22:46 UTC in reply to "RE: Palm copying Apple? "
tupp Member since:
2006-11-12

Likewise, you do realize that Apple did not invent the touch-screen PDA -- the Sony PTC-300 (1991) preceded the Newton: http://www.sony.net/Fun/design/history/product/1990/ptc-300.html

Reply Score: 3