Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 16th Feb 2009 14:06 UTC
Legal In a textbook example of "dweilen met de kraan open", the landmark trial against Torrent website The Pirate Bay will take off today in Sweden. The founders of the torrent website are charged with aiding millions of internet users gain access to illegal content. Basically the entire entertainment industry is amassing against The Pirate Bay, making this one of the biggest trials against internet file sharing in history.
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Comment by Darkmage
by Darkmage on Mon 16th Feb 2009 14:42 UTC
Darkmage
Member since:
2006-10-20

hmm clearly the author of this article has never watched Steal this film parts 1 and 2. After the pirate bay was raided the first time, the administrators set up a worldwide series of cells sort of like a terrorist group, where servers were setup many of which the owners of the pirate bay themselves are unaware of the locations of. These servers activate when the main website is taken offline and are located in many countries such as russia and mexico. Taking down the entire network will be akin to taking on Al quaeda, and that doesn't even begin to go into the problem of non pirate bay bittorrent servers which are all over the place. Win or lose the pirate bay itself will be with us for a very long time.

Reply Score: 7

Never let go
by ephracis on Mon 16th Feb 2009 15:07 UTC
ephracis
Member since:
2007-09-23

I am very proud to be from Sweden and I hope that the trial will go well (even though I do not personally like to use TPB). No matter what happens it will be no more than a fart in space as far as the pirates are concerned.

More interesting though is the Swedish Spotify which is really gaining popularity, at least over here. When a Spotify for movies and series is released it may actually be able to take on piracy. All we need then is a native client for Linux.

Maybe you should do an article on that?

Reply Score: 6

RE: Never let go
by Valhalla on Mon 16th Feb 2009 16:58 UTC in reply to "Never let go"
Valhalla Member since:
2006-01-24

Being from Sweden aswell, I have noticed the whole 'filesharing' thing getting alot of media coverage here during the past 10 months or so. Being of the 'older' generation I was taught that there is no thing as 'a free lunch' and that paying for something you wanted was the right thing to do. However, I was also a teen and like most young teens I wanted more than my allowance could afford which lead to me and my buddies copying games and music from eachother. Nowadays we have a whole generation that has more or less grown up with the internet in which they can find practically anything that can be reproduced digitally and they've become accustomed to it. In the soccer team I play in on my spare time we have a bunch of guys in the 18-22 year range and it's interesting talking to them about internet and computers. None of them are really interested in computers at all, but basically all of them have one which they for websurfing, games, music, and movies etc. And they all also fileshare on a daily basis.

For the even younger generation which has now grown up with internet and filesharing it seems to have become a way of life, and I personally can't see how legislation can ever hope to break this tide.

Reply Score: 8

RE[2]: Never let go
by Ford Prefect on Mon 16th Feb 2009 17:35 UTC in reply to "RE: Never let go"
Ford Prefect Member since:
2006-01-16

I think you make a good point there. Legislation cannot solve this issue, but on the other hand there really is an issue to be solved.

The only ones who have the possibility in their hands are the producers of the media. Instead of trying to slow this development down with technical (DRM) and legal (lobbying for new laws), they should finally face it.

Which means, offer an alternative.

1. People are not dumb and they realize that if they pay $15 for a CD, the artists never ever get more than $1 from that sale. If I could buy the CD for $5 on the internet in my preferred format, and the artist would get $2.5 from that, it would already be a win-win.

2. If I want to watch a movie tonight I can download it using Google, Torrent software and 3 clicks in about an hour, if popular even in only 30 minutes. I don't have to move my ass one inch for that. There is no competitive commercial (legal) alternative to that as of yet.


They have to *learn* from this instead of just fighting it. I still buy CDs and rent DVDs, but honestly, if you have to put extra work just to pay for it and then fight with limitations.... You could argue it makes more sense to use filesharing and make a donation afterwards...

Edited 2009-02-16 17:36 UTC

Reply Score: 10

RE[3]: Never let go
by ephracis on Mon 16th Feb 2009 18:02 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Never let go"
ephracis Member since:
2007-09-23

Which is exactly why I mentioned Spotify. It is an application, containing a library of thousands of songs (it's really huge). You can either listen to all music for free with commercial breaks every now and then, or pay a monthly fee.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spotify

I believe that is is a really good alternative to piracy and it seems that a lot of people agree with me, it's a bug success. It's still far from perfect (for example I use my playstation to play music so I can't use it, besides it only runs on Linux via wine). But if the service would expand to include movies and series, and run on mp3 players and mobile phones I think it would really take off.

Apart from Spotify I think that the days of the old record companies are gone. There is no need for a middle-man anymore. The money should instead go straight to the creator of the media.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Never let go
by jimbofluffy on Mon 16th Feb 2009 18:29 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Never let go"
jimbofluffy Member since:
2008-07-15

Which is exactly why I mentioned Spotify.


I would so use that, but it is a no go in the US. I rather not have to download and keep gigabytes of media myself, so I like the Hulu/Joost alternatives imperfect as they are. I guess I will keep using Pandora for music.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Never let go
by ephracis on Mon 16th Feb 2009 19:44 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Never let go"
ephracis Member since:
2007-09-23

Yeah, it's too bad it doesn't work for everyone. But I see a lot of potential in it and I have high hopes for it. It would be awesome to finally get a solution that works for (mostly) everyone.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Never let go
by Mellin on Mon 16th Feb 2009 20:04 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Never let go"
Mellin Member since:
2005-07-06

the recording company's are trying to kill spotify
they demand country restrictions

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Never let go
by abstraction on Mon 16th Feb 2009 23:00 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Never let go"
abstraction Member since:
2008-11-27

Ive used Spotify and I like it a lot. I actually have no problem with having to listen to a commercials now and then as long as it doesnt happen too often which it doesnt atm. Why Spotify works is because it is a better alternative than actually downloading songs because it is so easy to use and almost all music ive searched for is there. The only thing im shocked about is now when there is a good working prototype that makes everyone happy: Why are the record companies still f*cking up by not adding certain artist and ban some music in certain countries?

On a more technical note - there should be a interface free version like some sort of a music streaming server that doesnt require the client to have a specific platform. It would for instance be sooo cool to be able to mount Spotifys music library on your own computer =)

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Never let go
by WorknMan on Mon 16th Feb 2009 18:17 UTC in reply to "RE: Never let go"
WorknMan Member since:
2005-11-13

For the even younger generation which has now grown up with internet and filesharing it seems to have become a way of life, and I personally can't see how legislation can ever hope to break this tide.


It's not just the younger generation either, as I know people in their 40's and 50's who fileshare. The fact is that when it comes to piracy, there's NOTHING they can do to stop it. Even if, for example, they started selling music at 10 cents per track (like the Russian mp3 sites do), there are still people who are going to pirate them.

I have heard people say, "Well, if these companies would just do xyz, then piracy wouldn't exist." But I say piracy will ALWAYS exist, no matter what. For one reason or another, people who are filesharing/pirating/stealing/whatever feel justified in doing so. If you take away one of their jusitifications, they will just come up with another. I'm not here to say whether this is right or wrong; I'm just saying that the cat is out of the bag and now there's NO putting it back in.

If it can be seen or heard, it can be copied, and it WILL be copied. And that goes for games and software as well. If that means that the only way an industry can survive is for people to create content in their spare time because people refuse to pay for it, then that's how it's going to have to be. But you're not going to be able to legislate your way out of this problem. It just ain't gonna happen.

Edited 2009-02-16 18:23 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Never let go
by tyrione on Tue 17th Feb 2009 04:00 UTC in reply to "RE: Never let go"
tyrione Member since:
2005-11-21

Being from Sweden aswell, I have noticed the whole 'filesharing' thing getting alot of media coverage here during the past 10 months or so. Being of the 'older' generation I was taught that there is no thing as 'a free lunch' and that paying for something you wanted was the right thing to do. However, I was also a teen and like most young teens I wanted more than my allowance could afford which lead to me and my buddies copying games and music from eachother. Nowadays we have a whole generation that has more or less grown up with the internet in which they can find practically anything that can be reproduced digitally and they've become accustomed to it. In the soccer team I play in on my spare time we have a bunch of guys in the 18-22 year range and it's interesting talking to them about internet and computers. None of them are really interested in computers at all, but basically all of them have one which they for websurfing, games, music, and movies etc. And they all also fileshare on a daily basis.

For the even younger generation which has now grown up with internet and filesharing it seems to have become a way of life, and I personally can't see how legislation can ever hope to break this tide.


You're not from Generation X if you're copying Computer Games. Gen-X was there when DOS was screwing over PCDOS and more. Gen-X was in highschool where you were dealing with 360KB 5 1/4" floppies on an 8086.

You're more of the Gen QuasiXY, but yes your were around enough to appreciate and hate the term, ``there is no such thing as a free lunch.''

As I approach my 40th birthday I'm glad to have been a kid when Red Line BMX bikes, Schwinn, QuadAngle and other bikes were our main notions of freedom--riding with your buddies for hours in neighborhoods not worrying about being kidnapped, shot at or being arrested for stealing vegetables from the old man in the neighbhood's garden sure seems like Mayberry, compared to today's drones who more and more can't stomach the notion of physical exertion.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Never let go
by MamiyaOtaru on Tue 17th Feb 2009 06:52 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Never let go"
MamiyaOtaru Member since:
2005-11-11

You're not from Generation X if you're copying Computer Games. Gen-X was there when DOS was screwing over PCDOS and more. Gen-X was in highschool where you were dealing with 360KB 5 1/4" floppies on an 8086.

Who says there was no copying of DOS games on 5.25" floppies?* Don't try to act like piracy is something new.

Never hear of nokeydisk for getting around floppy based copy protection on, say, Rampage? I mean why else would all those old Sierra adventure games have protection schemes were you have to enter word four from paragraph three on page six of your manual?

___________________
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Xfqkdh5Js4 Don't Copy That Floppy!

Reply Score: 4

RE[4]: Never let go
by reez on Tue 17th Feb 2009 12:33 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Never let go"
reez Member since:
2006-06-28

There is even an article on wikipedia about this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sneakernet

Edited 2009-02-17 12:34 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Never let go
by bugjacobs on Tue 17th Feb 2009 21:28 UTC in reply to "RE: Never let go"
bugjacobs Member since:
2009-01-03

They WILL break p2p, with Fascism.

Edited 2009-02-17 21:30 UTC

Reply Score: 1

Comment by rramalho
by rramalho on Mon 16th Feb 2009 15:07 UTC
rramalho
Member since:
2007-07-11

I think it's better to all those Big Mega Corps to change once and for all their business model...

Once that happens, they may have a bit of a problem to be alive...

Reply Score: 2

dweilen met de kraan open
by siride on Mon 16th Feb 2009 15:24 UTC
siride
Member since:
2006-01-02

What does "dweilen met de kraan open" mean?

Reply Score: 2

RE: dweilen met de kraan open
by Arno on Mon 16th Feb 2009 16:14 UTC in reply to "dweilen met de kraan open"
Arno Member since:
2006-01-10

It's a dutch saying that means they are trying to solve a problem while the problem is still expanding at a rate they can't follow.

Reply Score: 2

stänga kranen
by memson on Mon 16th Feb 2009 16:05 UTC
memson
Member since:
2006-01-01

"stänga kranen" or somethinglike that surely? (not too good at Swedish idioms) ;)

Reply Score: 2

RE: stÃɤnga kranen
by ple_mono on Mon 16th Feb 2009 16:43 UTC in reply to "stänga kranen"
ple_mono Member since:
2005-07-26

I'm not sure what swedish has got to do with it. But i did look "dweilen" up in a dictionary, and apparently it means "to mop". So they're trying to mop it up even though the tap is still running (on the floor perhaps?).

Ah; maybe you meant they should "stänga kranen" (turn the tap off in swedish), rather than mop the floor...

Edited 2009-02-16 16:49 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: stÃÉ�Ãā¤nga kranen
by renhoek on Mon 16th Feb 2009 19:25 UTC in reply to "RE: stÃɤnga kranen"
renhoek Member since:
2007-04-29

it means literally "mopping while the tap is running". you can mop as fast as you want, but the water keeps coming. well, that was the dutch lesson for today.

but more on topic. please! change the business model. we are quite willing to pay for non drm crippled software/music/movies. just take a look at how itunes is doing. you have customers who are willing to pay you money with a minimal investment, why do they not want my money?

when i actually buy a dvd, i got the "you won't steal a film propaganda". hey! i bought it! let me at least fast forward.

Reply Score: 6

ephracis Member since:
2007-09-23

Yeah, hate that. Why not a "thank you for not stealing this movie" instead?

Reply Score: 2

I am generalising...
by abstraction on Mon 16th Feb 2009 17:06 UTC
abstraction
Member since:
2008-11-27

I dont know about you but I couldnt care less if the music and movie industry do not get their millions of dollars. Ive seen better movies with a budget a lot less than a typical hollywood production and todays music is so overproduced i can not stand it. Music, film and software should be a hobby, not a huge industry. All musicians and actors can climb down from ther high horses and go and get a proper f*cking job instead of cashing in poor peoples money to buy their f*cking ferraris.

Reply Score: 4

RE: I am generalising...
by darknexus on Mon 16th Feb 2009 17:29 UTC in reply to "I am generalising..."
darknexus Member since:
2008-07-15

Agreed. The amount they get paid is ridiculous, considering there are people who do a lot more important jobs--customer service, manufacturing, assembly lines, etc--that get paid so little they might as well be getting dirt. That's how it is here in the U.S anyway. I wish Hollywood would just drop off the earth, so the real talent could shine. What's more important, those who keep the country going or those who provide entertainment by practically stripping naked and dancing all over the damn place? I wish some of them could at least sing, but they can't. And now we have American Idol and crap shows like that, and we wonder why our society's falling apart.
Thing is, people eat it up, so they're going to keep producing it. And as long as people are eating it up, by downloading or paying, the entertainment industry is going to keep going after file sharing and the cycle will continue, wasting yet more precious money in legal bs.

Reply Score: 2

RE: I am generalising...
by abraxas on Mon 16th Feb 2009 21:22 UTC in reply to "I am generalising..."
abraxas Member since:
2005-07-07

I dont know about you but I couldnt care less if the music and movie industry do not get their millions of dollars. Ive seen better movies with a budget a lot less than a typical hollywood production and todays music is so overproduced i can not stand it. Music, film and software should be a hobby, not a huge industry. All musicians and actors can climb down from ther high horses and go and get a proper f*cking job instead of cashing in poor peoples money to buy their f*cking ferraris.


Most musicians do not get paid much money at all. In fact a lot of them lose money. The only ones that make a lot of money are those top 50 artists. The $18 or so that you pay for a CD gets a normal artist a few cents each. Conerts are much more lucrative and most tickets are not outrageously priced unless you're going to see a rock legend or a pop sensation. Of course the ticketmasters of the world take their cut too and charge you all kinds of ridiculous fees.

Labels should die in my opinion. Who needs a distributor anymore now that we have the internet? A home studio is a lot more affordable now also with professional tools available on commodity computers. Then all you need is a manager to work out concerts, ticket sales, appearances, etc. If you're enterprising you could do it all yourself.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: I am generalising...
by _txf_ on Mon 16th Feb 2009 22:55 UTC in reply to "RE: I am generalising..."
_txf_ Member since:
2008-03-17

Agreed, they should die but then be reborn. They have certain expertise in distribution and marketing and organizational skills that can help artists.

However, they should be taking a more subservient role and acting as consultants and not the masters. This will eventually happen and the labels are scared as hell about it.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: I am generalising...
by Almafeta on Tue 17th Feb 2009 05:55 UTC in reply to "RE: I am generalising..."
Almafeta Member since:
2007-02-22

The only ones that make a lot of money are those top 50 artists.


Not even then.

There's an article written by one of the punk rockers of the last decade. In it, she described her business (the demands of her work) and the benefits she could income to get while doing it, reduced by costs. If you cut out all non-transferrable, temporary benefits and bennies (yes, going to a gala premier is nice, but in the end it's just going to a company business party) and consider business expenses to reduce her income, she could make more money each year by working at a McDonald's and have more free time each week doing it. As far as I know, that's what she's doing now.

(I want to say the article was written by Courtney Love, but I've confused Courtney Love with at least five different people, so I'm leaving that article above unsourced until I remember...)

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: I am generalising...
by quackalist on Tue 17th Feb 2009 08:30 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: I am generalising..."
quackalist Member since:
2007-08-27

Yes, you are thinking of Courtney Love and the article in question is at -

http://archive.salon.com/tech/feature/2000/06/14/love/

Personally, nothing would please me more then if the entire media industry went tits-up due to piracy. Fat chance, though.

Edited 2009-02-17 08:35 UTC

Reply Score: 1

Also
by vitae on Mon 16th Feb 2009 18:07 UTC
vitae
Member since:
2006-02-20

Shouldn't this be a civil suit rather than criminal charges? What exactly are they being charged with? Because it sounds something like "aiding and abetting" which couldn't be worth all this press coverage. The internet is making it sound like the OJ trial of Sweden.

Does make me wonder about one thing though. What if filesharing crashed the entire entertainment industry to where there was no money it because everybody was getting it free? What would they do then? Would they go on making films, music etc. just for the sake of art or would they just go into something like advertising?

Reply Score: 2

RE: Also
by dagw on Mon 16th Feb 2009 18:27 UTC in reply to "Also"
dagw Member since:
2005-07-06

What exactly are they being charged with?

assisting in and preparations for committing copyright crime. Yes it is exactly as vague is it sounds. It's a big deal not because of the (lack of) seriousness of the crime, but because of the wider implications of the outcome no matter which way the judgment goes.

Does make me wonder about one thing though. What if filesharing crashed the entire entertainment industry to where there was no money it because everybody was getting it free?

Will never happen. All the large file sharers I know also spend a lot of money of entertainment. People who download a lot of music also tend to go to lots of concerts and and buy lots of band t-shirts and buy all the CDs of their favorite band.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Also
by wowtip on Mon 16th Feb 2009 23:12 UTC in reply to "RE: Also"
wowtip Member since:
2005-07-14

It's a big deal not because of the (lack of) seriousness of the crime, but because of the wider implications of the outcome no matter which way the judgment goes.


And because lots of people see this as a trial ordered by the copyright holder industry... And because of the uncertainty if "assisting in copyright violations" is even a crime according to swedish law... And because of the kind of harsh punishment and fines and damages demanded by MPAA and their friends.

Reply Score: 1

Piracy..
by Norsk on Mon 16th Feb 2009 18:59 UTC
Norsk
Member since:
2007-12-07

You know, in all of these piracy cases ..no one ever thinks of the 'positive' (so to speak) aspects of the piracy, that takes place. And I don't have to mention that I don't condone piracy either..thats a given.

The large corporates, want to 'protect the creators of the copyrighted material, and themsleves from loss of income..assuming that the piracy of their work has only had a negative effect for them. If they can put a dollar value on that so easily - then surely they must also have to take into consideration the amount the copyrighted holders and associates have made - that they would not have made otherwise, due to the fact that someone has seen a movie or heard a band that they personally would not have been interested at looking at in the first place, and then gone out and bought the material. Why don't they calculate this and put a dollar value on it as well ?.

They assume that a person who downloads material, was going to buy that legally, but didn't. But never assume the opposite. That they were never going to buy the legal meterial in the first place ...but now have ;) I wonder what the settlement\asking amounts would come to, if this was calculated fairly.

Reply Score: 4

Reportedly...
by Parry Hotter on Mon 16th Feb 2009 20:25 UTC
Parry Hotter
Member since:
2007-07-20

...the first car analogy was dropped just an hour into the first hearing. Awsome.

Reply Score: 2

Na-na, hey-hey, goodbye
by Almafeta on Tue 17th Feb 2009 02:49 UTC
Almafeta
Member since:
2007-02-22

Hope they have fun. Maybe they can try to get into one of those country club prisons.

This really isn't newsworthy... an article about what happened to make this case so long in coming, though, would be interesting.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Na-na, hey-hey, goodbye
by vitae on Tue 17th Feb 2009 07:24 UTC in reply to "Na-na, hey-hey, goodbye"
vitae Member since:
2006-02-20

Hope they have fun. Maybe they can try to get into one of those country club prisons.

This really isn't newsworthy... an article about what happened to make this case so long in coming, though, would be interesting.


If they actually have to do time for setting up a P2P network, now that would be newsworthy. Again, this should have been a civil case.

Edited 2009-02-17 07:28 UTC

Reply Score: 2

duh, prosecution a bit dim
by quackalist on Tue 17th Feb 2009 13:43 UTC
quackalist
Member since:
2007-08-27

Seems the prosecution has slipped on its own incompetence and has had to withdraw half the charges.

"What has been shown in court today is that the prosecutor cannot prove that the .torrent files he is using as evidence actually used The Pirate Bay‚Äôs tracker...This has resulted in prosecutor H√•kan Roswall having to drop all charges relating to ‚Äúassisting copyright infringement‚ÄĚ, so the remaining charges are simply ‚Äėassisting making available‚Äô. ‚ÄúEverything related to reproduction will be removed from the claim,‚ÄĚ

http://torrentfreak.com/50-of-charges-against-pirate-bay-dropped-09...

Reply Score: 2