Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 9th Mar 2009 23:21 UTC
SkyOS At the end of January this year, I wrote a rather harsh, but honest article on the state of SkyOS. I was very worried that the closed-source operating system, for which users have to pay in order to beta test it, would never reach a final version, something that was promised to the people paying the price. This feeling was strengthened by a lack of updates; we were five months without news, six months without a release, and 8 months without a changelog update. My article got the ball rolling, but now that we're five weeks down the road, is that ball still rolling?
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Comment by Almafeta
by Almafeta on Mon 9th Mar 2009 23:31 UTC
Almafeta
Member since:
2007-02-22

At the end of January this year, I wrote a rather harsh, but honest article on the state of SkyOS. My article got the ball rolling...


Kinda overstating your article and its effects, there.

(Assertions that only copying Linux can work.)


Or, get some venture capital and hire a small team (~10) of full-time coders, as opposed to relying on donations given "catch as catch can" while working other jobs.

If one man can't do everything, he can still delegate.

Edited 2009-03-09 23:38 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by Almafeta
by Thom_Holwerda on Mon 9th Mar 2009 23:37 UTC in reply to "Comment by Almafeta"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

The article ended a 6 month long hiatus in communication, and prompted Robert to officially declare SkyOS development halted, as well giving an overview of possible future plans.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Reply Score: 8

RE: Comment by Almafeta
by red_devel on Tue 10th Mar 2009 00:49 UTC in reply to "Comment by Almafeta"
red_devel Member since:
2006-03-30


Or, get some venture capital and hire a small team (~10) of full-time coders, as opposed to relying on donations given "catch as catch can" while working other jobs.


And do what exactly? Go head to head with Microsoft, Apple, and the major Linux Distributions for a share of the Desktop market? Sounds like a very sound business plan. Venture capital? Or venture throw-your-money-down-the-drain?

Reply Score: 11

RE: Comment by Almafeta
by Vanders on Tue 10th Mar 2009 08:14 UTC in reply to "Comment by Almafeta"
Vanders Member since:
2005-07-06

Or, get some venture capital and hire a small team (~10) of full-time coders


Do you happen to know anyone with too much money who wants to invest in an OS? It's not like venture capital is a bottomless pit of easy money. In fact VC is terrible for something like SkyOS, because an investor will want to see a typical return of something like 20% over 5 years, so you only have something like 12 months to get to market and start producing income. That's almost impossible for a startup building a Linux distribution, let alone someone writing, testing and releasing an entirely new OS.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by Almafeta
by segedunum on Tue 10th Mar 2009 15:28 UTC in reply to "Comment by Almafeta"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Or, get some venture capital and hire a small team (~10) of full-time coders, as opposed to relying on donations given "catch as catch can" while working other jobs.

Not going to happen. SkyOS is not viable. Unless you're Microsoft raking in billions each month then it is pretty much impossible to create your own viable operating system these days unless you go the open source route and share the burden with others.

It's really sad, and I hate that situation because I believe you see far less innovation, but it's true.

Edited 2009-03-10 15:30 UTC

Reply Score: 3

Thom: just stop.
by Alex Forster on Tue 10th Mar 2009 01:39 UTC
Alex Forster
Member since:
2005-08-12

Thom, you're directly fueling Robert's disdain for SkyOS. I'm going to quote a very powerful section from private correspondence with Robert, and then I hope that this can all stop.

"My motivation is just down at this very point. Reading other peoples comments and how they demand to open source SkyOS, and how they think they have a right to demand this just showed me again why keeping myself motivated is rather difficult."

He's already decided that it's on hiatus; hiatus doesn't come with a roadmap. Leave it alone.

Edited 2009-03-10 01:40 UTC

Reply Score: 9

RE: Thom: just stop.
by reduz on Tue 10th Mar 2009 02:19 UTC in reply to "Thom: just stop."
reduz Member since:
2006-02-25

I don't know myself, most closed projects benefited enormously from being opensourced. Blender is a prime example of how a somehwat OK app became excellent in far less time than it would have ever had closed. If i were to be in the SkyOS author shoes, I'd feel very glad if people would take up development of my project and help me take it to stages i could never do alone. Working on a project alone for such a long time must be pretty frustrating, given than "getting there" (to those dreamed goals) seems to take forever.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Thom: just stop.
by WereCatf on Tue 10th Mar 2009 02:23 UTC in reply to "Thom: just stop."
WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

He's already decided that it's on hiatus; hiatus doesn't come with a roadmap. Leave it alone.

I think the point is just that many commenters, including Thom, wish to see SkyOS going atleast some direction, any direction. No one has the right to demand anything from Robert, except perhaps those who have paid for the beta access. And even they don't really have the right to demand anything more than Robert to keep them updated on the situation a bit more often.

I personally think SkyOS would have a lot to offer if it got opened up. Who knows how quickly it would start getting drivers and all that, needed to get actual work done. But well, keeping it closed is just as fine if Robert can get his motivation up.

If Robert ever reads these comments then I hope I can cheer him up a little by sharing my opinion; he has already done tremendous job, getting an OS to such a state as SkyOS is by only himself is a really remarkable job ;) It's a tough decision as to what to do with SkyOS but do try to stay strong and stick to whatever you decide ;)

Reply Score: 7

RE[2]: Thom: just stop.
by sirhalos on Tue 10th Mar 2009 03:13 UTC in reply to "RE: Thom: just stop."
sirhalos Member since:
2007-04-04

I agree. The first article had a point and was a good call for answers. Now Robert is thinking them over it has only been a few weeks give him time. It's not an easy thing to just give up something you have worked on for years so easily. If he still hasn't done anything in lets say a year then we can say something. Right now it's still too fresh and it needs to be thought out not just say this is what we will do but think out what goes from there and how it will work. It's one thing to say it's another to do.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Thom: just stop.
by Bill Shooter of Bul on Tue 10th Mar 2009 16:41 UTC in reply to "RE: Thom: just stop."
Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

Yes, but those who paid for beta access were promised a full release. Surely, he morally owes them at least an apology. "Hiatus" just seems like a way to say " I give up for the foreseeable future" without having to say it.

As remarkable as his effort has been, he's sort of burning the bridge he came in on. How many of the people that paid for access, will be willing to do it again for the next one man OS dev team? Speaking as one of them, I will not. I'd rather at this point donate something to Haiku, which seems like it has a greater chance of success and or continued usefulness.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Thom: just stop.
by FreeGamer on Tue 10th Mar 2009 06:47 UTC in reply to "Thom: just stop."
FreeGamer Member since:
2007-04-13

When he started taking money from beta testers, he lost the right to be upset when people ask for something. It's perfectly reasonable for people - especially paying users - to express their preferred path. They want to see SkyOS live, not die. You and him need a perspective adjustment; users matter.

Reply Score: 7

RE: Thom: just stop.
by Thom_Holwerda on Tue 10th Mar 2009 06:51 UTC in reply to "Thom: just stop."
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

As much as Robert is a nice guy, he has an obligation to his paying customers, who were promised certain goods years and years ago, but never received it. You can't just go on a hiatus for 6 months, with no communication, leaving your paying customers in the dark.

I'm personally not demanding anything, the article is pretty clear on that; I just presented my personal preference in the matter.

However, all those people that paid good money have a RIGHT to demand for a product, or at the very least, a sign of life or some idea where this is all going. Again, Robert's reasons to abandon SkyOS (which is pretty clear by now) may be valid, but so are all those people's demands. Nice guy or not, child or not, motivation or not, Robert has an obligation to them. I sometimes lacked the motivation at my previous job too, but that doesn't mean I can just not show up and leave my customers, colleagues and boss in the cold.

So, I will write another one of these articles in six weeks. And in twelve weeks. And in 18 weeks. Until this issue is resolved one way or the other.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Thom: just stop.
by yahya on Tue 10th Mar 2009 12:30 UTC in reply to "RE: Thom: just stop."
yahya Member since:
2007-03-29

So, I will write another one of these articles in six weeks. And in twelve weeks. And in 18 weeks. Until this issue is resolved one way or the other.


Would you really waste your energy on kicking a dead horse again and again?

Probably Robert is even right in stating that legally no-one can demand from him to open-source his OS. I suppose that the 30 USD for the beta access did not put a legal obligation onto him to either deliver a final product or open-source the code. The small print probably said that if a stable release comes, you will get access to it, if not then not.

I think it is more important to learn from this experience as much as you can. Even if you do not adhere to the religion of Free Software and are not a member of the Church of Emacs, this teaches you what the consequences of giving up your freedom by relying on non-free software are.

If a software is supported by a large-enough corporation, the risk of loosing your investment may be quite small, but if it is a small group or even a single individual, this is just way to risky. Same as it was with ZETA (which of course, had also legal issues and was more expensive)

There was another very promising OS which was developed almost single-handedly by one hacker: AtheOS, by Kurt Skauen. Skauen never allowed other hackers to work on the core os, he wanted AtheOS to remain his baby alone and to control everything. At one point, Skauen lost his motivation and the whole OS just perished.

However, fortunately Skauen had released AtheOS under the GPL. And this is why we have the Syllable OS today, which is still progressing and has come a long way since it took over. If we look at Syllable, we see that it has remained faithful to the original goals of AtheOS: It is still an incredibly fast and easy to use desktop OS, without any bloat.

Now Robert has to make his choice. He can open-source it or just continue to sulk and let his work of many years fade into obsolescence. There is no other option. Which company would pour money into a beta OS for the PC? There is no market for this, remember the demise of Be, Inc.

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: Thom: just stop.
by wannabe geek on Tue 10th Mar 2009 21:52 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Thom: just stop."
wannabe geek Member since:
2006-09-27


Probably Robert is even right in stating that legally no-one can demand from him to open-source his OS. I suppose that the 30 USD for the beta access did not put a legal obligation onto him to either deliver a final product or open-source the code. The small print probably said that if a stable release comes, you will get access to it, if not then not.


I don't know about the small print (it's no longer available) but the big print goes like this:


As of right now, there is no version available for sale. SkyOS v5.0 is in beta phase, and joining the beta-testing team costs 29 EUR. As a member of the beta team, you have access to the following:
- All of the betas and release candidates before v5.0 final is released;
- Access to the special beta forum;
- A copy of 5.0 final when it is released.


Source: http://www.skyos.org/?q=node/408

Notice it says "when", not "when and if" or anything like that. At the very least, I guess disgruntled customers would have a case of deceptive advertisement. If Robert has no plans to go on development, I think he should give their money back to those who demand it. Or maybe he can make a few trivial modifications and call it "final". Fair enough, but he'll have to live with the fact that he released a half-baked product as final. I understand that this sudden lack of time and motivation can happen to anyone, but he should talk to his customers and reach an agreement, or return the money.

Note: Yeah, you guessed. I'm no paying customer. I'm a Free Software zealot and I'm delighted with the situation. Bite me! ;)

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Thom: just stop.
by Laurence on Wed 11th Mar 2009 12:41 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Thom: just stop."
Laurence Member since:
2007-03-26

He can open-source it or just continue to sulk and let his work of many years fade into obsolescence. There is no other option.

Actually there is.
He could hand the project over to someone he trusts to keep the project development active and true to the original goals.

SkyOS doesn't need to be open source to be developed - it just needs a motivated leader. If Robert isn't motivated then perhaps it's time to pass the project on (for a temproary or perminant basis) to some one who is

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Thom: just stop.
by sbergman27 on Tue 10th Mar 2009 16:57 UTC in reply to "RE: Thom: just stop."
sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

You can't just go on a hiatus for 6 months, with no communication, leaving your paying customers in the dark.

Apparently, you can. But thanks to this new information those paying customers, formerly in the dark, now know that they are in the lurch.

Edited 2009-03-10 16:58 UTC

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: Thom: just stop.
by nick_vaj on Wed 11th Mar 2009 11:20 UTC in reply to "RE: Thom: just stop."
nick_vaj Member since:
2009-03-11

...who were promised certain goods years and years ago, but never received it


Wrong. You got the Beta access, which is "the goods". The other "good", the final version, was never promised at a specific time. The project is on hold. Get over it.

I'm personally not demanding anything


Yet you claim obligations.

However, all those people that paid good money have a RIGHT to demand for a product, or at the very least, a sign of life or some idea where this is all going.


Wrong again. They got the beta, and that's all they can demand. I'm sure Robert will issue more information when the time is right.

So, I will write another one of these articles in six weeks. And in twelve weeks. And in 18 weeks. Until this issue is resolved one way or the other.


In which case I will start an anti-OSnews campaign.

Thanks,

Nick Vajberg.

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: Thom: just stop.
by Thom_Holwerda on Wed 11th Mar 2009 12:49 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Thom: just stop."
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Wrong. You got the Beta access, which is "the goods". The other "good", the final version, was never promised at a specific time. The project is on hold. Get over it.


What was promised was a steady stream of beta releases leading up to a final release which all beta team members would get. That was what all those people paid for. They haven't seen a beta in six months, and a final release will never arrive.

Back when this scheme started, countless people here claimed it would end in tears, with Robert losing interest and money being wasted on nothing. I was not one of those. In any case, several main SkyOS people contacted me, asking me to mod down the people who warned about what is currently happening.

And now that it has happened, they are supposed to shut up again, and just take it? We are not allowed to complain that right now, none of the goods that were promised are being delivered?

If anyone else had pulled this stunt off, it would be all over the news, torches and pitchforks would be bought, and hell would be raised. But now that it's Robert and he has a child, it's suddenly OK?

As much as I know Robert's a nice guy, this is not about him, or his personal situation. This is about a promise that was made to paying customers, and you can't just walk away from that and more or less abandon the project. It just doesn't work that way, it's unfair, and I have EVERY right to bring this under everyone's attention.

If only as a lesson for the future.

Edited 2009-03-11 12:51 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Thom: just stop.
by nick_vaj on Wed 11th Mar 2009 13:03 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Thom: just stop."
nick_vaj Member since:
2009-03-11

I have EVERY right to bring this under everyone's attention.


This way of doing it is only lame.

Did you even bother asking him about progress directly first?

What was promised was a steady stream of beta releases leading up to a final release which all beta team members would get. That was what all those people paid for. They haven't seen a beta in six months, and a final release will never arrive.


The project is currently on hold. Never is hardly the right word at this point.

As much as I know Robert's a nice guy, this is not about him, or his personal situation.


You have made it about him, both during your articles and comments.

Edited 2009-03-11 13:23 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Thom: just stop.
by bornagainenguin on Wed 11th Mar 2009 22:07 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Thom: just stop."
bornagainenguin Member since:
2005-08-07

Thom Holwerda confessed...

Back when this scheme started, countless people here claimed it would end in tears, with Robert losing interest and money being wasted on nothing. I was not one of those. In any case, several main SkyOS people contacted me, asking me to mod down the people who warned about what is currently happening.

And now that it has happened, they are supposed to shut up again, and just take it? We are not allowed to complain that right now, none of the goods that were promised are being delivered?


Hmm... nice. I don't suppose we'll be getting any of our karma back from those days, will we? Right...right...I suspected not.

If I didn't know any better (and frankly I don't) I would have to be wondering right now how much of this sudden change of heart towards SkyOS and Mr. Szeleney is to cover yourself from charges of aiding or abetting in the scam.

The more I think about it, the more this has 419 scam written all over it.

Remember how Robert had supposedly several people working with him, Kelly something wasn't it? People that constantly posted in these forums complaining about how trolls were predicting this very outcome...

And the guy was making some nice pocket change at this too--just push out a few tech demos every month or so, post reassurance to any of the sheep skittish about their money here on OSNews.com, then watch the money roll in.

Nice if you can get it...

So, what was your take to keep the sheep quiet and ready to be be fleeced, Thom?

--bornagainpenguin

PS: nick_vaj did you really just sign up to OSNews.com today so you could defend Szeleney from facing the consequences of his scam failing??

Edited 2009-03-11 22:11 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Thom: just stop.
by Thom_Holwerda on Thu 12th Mar 2009 00:52 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Thom: just stop."
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

If I didn't know any better (and frankly I don't) I would have to be wondering right now how much of this sudden change of heart towards SkyOS and Mr. Szeleney is to cover yourself from charges of aiding or abetting in the scam.


I disagreed with you back then because I believed SkyOS was going somewhere. Back then, we were getting regular releases, lots of decent progress, and useful features. As time went on, however, the project lost focus, and now we're here.

It's not about covering up anything. I didn't actually mod anyone down or removed comments because of it back then. My change of heart isn't even sudden - I "stepped out" of the SkyOS community years ago, because way back, when the first signs of losing focus appeared, I made my concerns known already - on the SkyOS forums, and the irc channel.

So, what was your take to keep the sheep quiet and ready to be be fleeced, Thom?


Heaps of money. Didn't you hear? I now live on my own island in the Pacific with an army of upper-class hookers.

Edited 2009-03-12 00:54 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: Thom: just stop.
by bornagainenguin on Thu 12th Mar 2009 04:41 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Thom: just stop."
bornagainenguin Member since:
2005-08-07

Thom Holwerda explained...

I disagreed with you back then because I believed SkyOS was going somewhere. Back then, we were getting regular releases, lots of decent progress, and useful features. As time went on, however, the project lost focus, and now we're here.


That's the thing--it was never really about whether or not Robert (or really anyone else coding for an new or "alternative" operating system) being able to produce releases--it was about the users and enthusiasts having some kind of insurance the thing they were supporting would last beyond a hostile takeover or loss of revenue. I think BeOS really opened a lot of people's eyes to the idea even something that was designed well, looked good, and delivered (then) unheard of performance could still die and leave people hanging without some form of insurance. Since then the whole Zeta debacle and the strange mixed fate of QNX have continued to push home the need for some way to continue an OS after its progenitors have passed on.

AtheOS (Syllable) shows there is another way. So does the dual licensing by Trolltech. Hopefully their examples will be inspiring to the right people.

Thom Holwerda replied...
It's not about covering up anything. I didn't actually mod anyone down or removed comments because of it back then. My change of heart isn't even sudden - I "stepped out" of the SkyOS community years ago, because way back, when the first signs of losing focus appeared, I made my concerns known already - on the SkyOS forums, and the irc channel.


Okay, re-reading what you actually wrote shows me you never said you actually modded anyone down inappropriately. Now above you're saying you never did so, just that you were approached by people to do so.

I see that I owe you an enormous apology. Mea Culpa. I'm sorry I leapt to such a wrong conclusion so quickly. I should not have disparaged your integrity so. Please forgive me?

Thom Holwerda riposted...
So, what was your take to keep the sheep quiet and ready to be be fleeced, Thom?

Heaps of money. Didn't you hear? I now live on my own island in the Pacific with an army of upper-class hookers.


I LOL'd..seriously, I did.. See--this is why I miss the ability to mod posts in a thread after I've posted. This needs to be modded up as funny...

--bornagainpenguin

Edited 2009-03-12 04:43 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Thom: just stop.
by nick_vaj on Thu 12th Mar 2009 16:09 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Thom: just stop."
nick_vaj Member since:
2009-03-11

PS: nick_vaj did you really just sign up to OSNews.com today so you could defend Szeleney from facing the consequences of his scam failing??


I signed up ONLY to defend Szeleney, yes. The idiocy of OSNews and its so-called editor needs a counter weight.

Thanks,

Nick Vajberg.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Thom: just stop.
by BluenoseJake on Tue 10th Mar 2009 21:38 UTC in reply to "Thom: just stop."
BluenoseJake Member since:
2005-08-11

When you pay for betas, perhaps you do have a right to expect progress, or at least clear communication. People who have paid for SkyOS are not only users, they are customers.

Reply Score: 2

Closed source
by zenulator on Tue 10th Mar 2009 03:54 UTC
zenulator
Member since:
2008-06-29

It's a closed source operating system I don't see what the big deal is. You paid for a beta. I'm sure you used the beta. If and when there is an update I'm sure you'll have access to it. I hope SkyOS continues in some form or another but in the end it's not my call so my opinion doesn't count. Things change, goals change, hardware changes and over time lessons are learned. But to demand progress on something you don't own is disrespectful even if you bought into the beta it's still not your code.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Closed source
by UltraZelda64 on Tue 10th Mar 2009 07:21 UTC in reply to "Closed source"
UltraZelda64 Member since:
2006-12-05

But to demand progress on something you don't own is disrespectful even if you bought into the beta it's still not your code.

It's your money though, and you've got the right to feel screwed and bitch as a result if you forked it over hoping for a "final" someday.

Thankfully, I haven't bought into this SkyOS thing, and have therefore not paid a penny, nor ever even used the OS. I was kind of skeptical all along. The more I hear, the more I'm glad that's the case, because I would be pretty annoyed, if not downright pissed by now, if I were a paying customer. On the other hand, I would like the try it, but I just can't justify it.

SkyOS really sounded interesting, but I just had a feeling--considering it's a one-man OS--that it wouldn't go very far. He just didn't seem to want to give *any* control up. Now, I'm not a developer myself, but I don't have to be to know that if one person has absolute control over a project, they can get "bored" or "tired" of it and lose motivation out of nowhere. Especially one as extreme as an entire operating system. So far, I see nothing proving me wrong.

The idea of SkyOS being controlled as Linus does the Linux kernel (ie. by Robert, accepting or denying community changes) and being released under a MIT/BSD-style license does sound like the way to go though, IMO. I could imagine a lot more activity if that happened. Who knows if it'll happen, though.

Edited 2009-03-10 07:23 UTC

Reply Score: 4

People really CAN demand answers
by gadget00 on Tue 10th Mar 2009 05:55 UTC
gadget00
Member since:
2007-02-16

I'm sorry, but Szeleney must give out some answers regarding the project. We are talking about people PAYING for getting the final product; it wasn't just for playing with the beta, it specified they will be receiving a full OS at the end of the dev cycle whether by CD or a special link for download.

I don't wanna sound too controversial, but there is money in the middle of this, and they weren't just donations; it was more like a contract actually. So the 'motivation' thing should to be refocused as "my customers(beta testers) already payed for something. What can i give them?".

My hope is that Robert can take a decision quick so he can have peace about the future and can concentrate on his own business; but all the beta testers that gave money deserve real and definitive answers.
And no, I'm not part of the beta test group; but was tempted like many. Blessings.

Reply Score: 3

Either way
by Boomshiki on Tue 10th Mar 2009 06:30 UTC
Boomshiki
Member since:
2008-06-11

I'd like to see it go anywhere. Free would be cool, open source is cool, niche market too. I would just like the opportunity to buy it or download it or something. Anything to get it in my hands.

The only thing I demand is a mailing list that I can sign up for so that I don't need to anxiously run to skyos.org hoping for an update.

Reply Score: 2

The poor guy...
by Tuishimi on Tue 10th Mar 2009 07:28 UTC
Tuishimi
Member since:
2005-07-06

...must be burned out by now. 6 years of a one man operating system development team takes its toll.

I am, btw, a paying customer (twice, actually).

[edit]

Before anyone knocks the twice paid thing, I have also donated to haiku more than several times. I think donations like that, even if they do not pan out, encourage others to develop interesting products.

Edited 2009-03-10 07:30 UTC

Reply Score: 4

Google SkyOS
by OSGuy on Tue 10th Mar 2009 09:03 UTC
OSGuy
Member since:
2006-01-01

I think it would be nice if Google bought SkyOS and started sponsoring/paying Robert to continue working on SkyOS + it would throw a few tens of extra staff members to give him a hand with coding but Robert would be in charge at the end. How cool would that be?

Edited 2009-03-10 09:04 UTC

Reply Score: 2

Comment by klimg
by klimg on Tue 10th Mar 2009 09:22 UTC
klimg
Member since:
2007-08-03

What would they do that for???
They couldn't even if they wanted - it's not open source.

Or do you mean they just should assign a random couple of codemonkeys to the OS and pay them do develop a prop. OS for somebody else to make money off their contributions?

Edited 2009-03-10 09:23 UTC

Reply Score: 1

Money
by Boomshiki on Tue 10th Mar 2009 10:46 UTC
Boomshiki
Member since:
2008-06-11

I find it funny how people are complaining about their money. There is always risk when you invest your money in a startup, especially one with no finished product.

Be happy that you don't play the stock market with your attitudes =p

Reply Score: 3

RE: Money
by ebasconp on Tue 10th Mar 2009 12:32 UTC in reply to "Money"
ebasconp Member since:
2006-05-09

I fully agree....

Have you thought the same amount of money paid to SkyOS can be spent in 15 minutes eating burgers?

Yes, I know the paying customers deserve some communication, but, after the first Thom's post, they were announced with the Robert hiatus... their reasons are quite comprehensible and I think the paying customers already enjoyed testing and using SkyOS (more than 15 minutes, I estimate)... so, they were already paid.

Robert, good work, think about your personal issues and your project, put everything in a balance and come back! ;)

Edited 2009-03-10 12:41 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE: Money
by CharAznable on Tue 10th Mar 2009 12:37 UTC in reply to "Money"
CharAznable Member since:
2005-07-06

I was under the impression that this was a purchase, not an investment.

Can a SkyOS paying customer clarify the terms of the purchase?

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Money
by poundsmack on Tue 10th Mar 2009 16:22 UTC in reply to "RE: Money"
poundsmack Member since:
2005-07-13

I paid for the beta. paying for the beta is in no way a guarantee that there will be a final version. all you paid for was access to the beta and if the final version ever came out you got that too. even if skyos doesn't release a single update past today I stand by my decision to pony up some cash to get to be in the beta and play with the OS.

Do what you want to Robert, don't let the weight of the world bring you down. If you want to keep making the OS cool, if you need a break for a while thats completely fine. Man can only code so much, you hit your quota for a 5 year coding spree in like 6 months. come back to the development when your ready. till then, take care.

-poundsmack
satisfied beta tester

Reply Score: 3

From a Paid Perspective
by HeLfReZ on Tue 10th Mar 2009 13:13 UTC
HeLfReZ
Member since:
2005-08-12

As another paying customer, I would echo some of the sentiment and disdain Thom has. I think it's well within his/our right to bitch & complain if for nothing other than to make ourselves feel better after being shafted lol.

One man show...wow..I can only imagine how hard that hs been, and how tough it must be on the guy, so I kinda feel sorry for him. I can't, in good conscience, ask a fellow geek to choose between his family and his own OS lol, but something has to give sooner or later. I think the title of the first article Thom wrote, summed it up quite nicely...Chasing butterflies.

It seemed to me, that in those final months of activity, Robert lost focus on delivering an OS, and got caught up in seeing just how many cutting edge functions he could cram into the OS. The project has lost all sense of focus, and was wnadering aimlessly on a mission to implement new functions rather than refine old ones.

I think that, before any choice on who finishes SkyOS gets made, Robert needs to decide WHAT SkyOS "is". I think that he would be better served, carving out a role in the marketplace, rather than just another OS. I would personally think that it could really gain some steam as a lightweight "Netbook" OS. With the E17 like tricks in the quite and the really modular code, I think its got a fighting chance to make some ground. People have already accepted that netbooks dont HAVE to come with windows, and other operating systems are more suitable, so have the battle is won.

It would be amazing to see SkyOS and ReactOS have a baby that grows up to live in a netbook!! New look & feel + the ability to run some windows programs, would be kick ass!

Think about it!!

Reply Score: 2

RE: From a Paid Perspective
by Coxy on Tue 10th Mar 2009 13:21 UTC in reply to "From a Paid Perspective"
Coxy Member since:
2006-07-01

> ...Robert lost focus on delivering an OS, and got caught up in seeing just how many cutting edge functions he could cram into the OS...

Or myabe since he has a kid now, he realises that there are more important things to life then sitting 24/7 in front of a monitor programming, trying to make a bit of money (what did it cost $5? geez, you couldn't even by Homebase's cheapest plastic bogroll holder for that, and you people are moaning?!?).

Not everything last for ever. get over it, and find a new project to waste your time with until you discover what is really important in life.

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: From a Paid Perspective
by HeLfReZ on Tue 10th Mar 2009 15:49 UTC in reply to "RE: From a Paid Perspective"
HeLfReZ Member since:
2005-08-12

Ummm...i think you should spend less time looking for troll space, and more reading my comments. I said in the last couple releases!! Hence the time before the kid when he was still working on the project, not the hiatus time when he went away to spend time with family.

I have a 4yr old and as a single father, please don't preach to me about loosing time...that part I understand. Don;t take my comments out of context please.

Reply Score: 2

Dual License?
by braddock on Tue 10th Mar 2009 13:28 UTC
braddock
Member since:
2005-07-08

GPL + Commercial?

Worked for TollTech...

Reply Score: 1

RE: Dual License?
by wanderingk88 on Wed 11th Mar 2009 01:12 UTC in reply to "Dual License?"
wanderingk88 Member since:
2008-06-26

SkyOS isn't exactly a multiplatform application development framework, so I don't see how that would work for him.

Edited 2009-03-11 01:14 UTC

Reply Score: 1

"He had a Dream"
by UglyKidBill on Tue 10th Mar 2009 13:29 UTC
UglyKidBill
Member since:
2005-07-27

I´m surprised that people here has this Unsatisfied Customer attitude. I expected people in 'geekland' to understand that they were not buying an appliance from a multinational but instead chipping in to help in the development of a very interesting project, something that hopefully come out very well, but also could end up badly.

Yeah, apparently he was so exited and sure about the project that he worded it to sound like the great company behind the product that he was dreaming about, and promissed some things he can't deliver right now.
But, really, can you blame him for that? Didn't you realize that was a man's dream and you were helping him about it and getting something in return? (you got the betas at the very least). Did you really spend the money thinking there was *no way* the project stalled at some point?

If demanding some "consumers rights" is your way to push him to continue, it's unlikely to work... more likely the message you are sending is "it'll be much worse if you ever release a Gold version".

We should be sorry if the project goes down, but not too sorry for a few bucks spent on a worthy dream.

note: I have no relation with SkyOS, I followed the news about it, but never tried it other than some beta about 6 years ago when they were freely available.

note 2: hope nothing of this sounds harsh against anyone, it's just the best I can do with my english knowledge...

Reply Score: 10

Huh?
by liamdawe on Tue 10th Mar 2009 14:08 UTC
liamdawe
Member since:
2006-07-04

Forgive me if i am wrong but i have not seen anyone Demand it be open sourced? Infact there hasn't been that much discussion on the skyos forums at all.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Huh?
by B12 Simon on Tue 10th Mar 2009 14:19 UTC in reply to "Huh?"
B12 Simon Member since:
2006-11-08

It was a popular idea on here when Thom first floated the idea.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Huh?
by liamdawe on Tue 10th Mar 2009 19:56 UTC in reply to "RE: Huh?"
liamdawe Member since:
2006-07-04

It was a popular idea on here when Thom first floated the idea.

I know that i was keeping up, but a popular idea does not mean people where Demanding it as some people seem to think.

I paid for the beta under the impression/idea and the promise from Robert to get the full OS out of it too, which has not been delivered, i would LIKE to see it open sourced and i am not demanding anything, to make it clear.

Oh and don't bother bashing me, i have been around skyos for a long time, we where promised the full skyos 5.0 (as it was going to be called). The join page to become a beta member specifically said we are paying for access to the beta AS WELL as the full os.

That said i hardly see how people "demanding" it to be open sourced would make Robert feel less motivated as someone quoted from a conversation they had, if it was my project it would damn well push me to do something with it as there is so much interest.

For god sakes Robert don't let it die, or your wasted the beta testers money and a massive amount of your own invested time.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Huh?
by MamiyaOtaru on Tue 10th Mar 2009 20:58 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Huh?"
MamiyaOtaru Member since:
2005-11-11

"It was a popular idea on here when Thom first floated the idea.
I know that i was keeping up, but a popular idea does not mean people where Demanding it as some people seem to think. "

Exactly. I don't think anyone is demanding that it be open sourced. But it would sure be a shame not to. If the choice is between having it die off for good, or having it possibly continue with other coders doing work, it would be a crying shame to choose the former. But obviously it's up to him.

Reply Score: 2

Unbelievable
by jdusablon on Tue 10th Mar 2009 15:09 UTC
jdusablon
Member since:
2008-02-01

Thom, your journalistic ethics are unconscionable. You are abusing the power of many behind a popular website to pressure (and dare I say badmouth) a very small enterprise of one guy who has apparently been sidetracked from his project because of personal circumstances. What are you expecting as a reaction from him THIS time, exactly?

It is vindictive and low to chase after the fellow in a non-neutral and semi-public forum this way.

Paying beta testers: if you have issues with this guy, you should all take them up directly with him, not spraypaint his name on osnews.com.

Thom, as one of the primary article submitters, you should try to exercise some forethought to the consequences of what you write.

Reply Score: 8

RE: Unbelievable
by jptros on Wed 11th Mar 2009 14:20 UTC in reply to "Unbelievable"
jptros Member since:
2005-08-26

This is probably the most spot on comment I've read in this thread so far. I think Thom is reacting on his impulses instead of his better judgment.

Reply Score: 1

Another paying customer here
by twm_bucket on Tue 10th Mar 2009 15:51 UTC
twm_bucket
Member since:
2008-10-09

I paid for the beat test years ago, at the dawn of the program. I have waited years and years, through delay after delay, defending the OS.

I don't care if Robert lost motivation. You have paying customers, Robert. Don't jilt us.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Another paying customer here
by mattst88 on Tue 10th Mar 2009 17:04 UTC in reply to "Another paying customer here"
mattst88 Member since:
2005-08-27

Who are you? Why don't I immediately know you from the forum?

Were you ever a part of the community? Did you idle in IRC? Or participate on the forums? Submit bug reports? Write software?

The sense I get is that the people who weren't active in the community are the ones shouting about money and "paying customers."

It's not that I disagree with you, but where were _you_ when SkyOS development slowed to a crawl last year?

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Another paying customer here
by vitae on Tue 10th Mar 2009 17:50 UTC in reply to "RE: Another paying customer here"
vitae Member since:
2006-02-20



It's not that I disagree with you, but where were _you_ when SkyOS development slowed to a crawl last year?



That's not the point. As previously stated in this thread, some of pre-paid for the official release and did NOT sign up for the beta testing. We were paying for the product in advance with the understanding that it was coming. There was never any IF in those days, it was WHEN. And when was made to sound like it was just around the corner.

Now we all understand that family comes first, and I am sorry if Robert is taking this personal. However it's one thing to simply ask for donations, and quite another to be actually selling something before it's released and not to follow through. It's not a question of the money, it's the principle of the thing. I doubt anybody seriously expects the money back, and probably few would accuse him of having shady intentions. But he does need to understand that this not about people do have some legitimate concerns here. That people are not attacking him out of spite.

Reply Score: 3

poundsmack Member since:
2005-07-13

well vitae, the solution to your problem is simple then ;) .

Hey Robert, can you send vitae an ISO of the current beta labeled, "5 SkyOS 5.0 Final" ?

as beta software it is more stable than at least 2 GM releases of Windows that MS made people or OEM's pay for. But i don't think SkyOS wants to go down as the Windows ME of alternative OS's ;)

Reply Score: 2

vitae Member since:
2006-02-20

Path??

This is what he said:

"Currently, SkyOS development is on halt, and I’m trying to find a way to get out of this unpromising situation. At this moment I only see four resorts."

- Open source SkyOS (he doesn't seem thrilled with this option)
- Make SkyOS available for free (too late for that)
- Specialize on a yet to define niche (a lot of open source competition there)
- Stop SkyOS development (would be a waste of his efforts)

He's got a new baby. He'a a family man now. This is going to take up whatever free time and money he had before. He's probably had many sleepless nights already. He's not going to have the time or energy for SkyOS for awhile. Note that he didn't say, "I'm taking a hiatus for family time, but I'll be back." I think we've pretty much reached the end of the path unless he can be persuaded to open source it.

Reply Score: 2

Final release.
by zenulator on Tue 10th Mar 2009 16:59 UTC
zenulator
Member since:
2008-06-29

"Currently, SkyOS development is on halt, and I’m trying to find a way to get out of this unpromising situation. At this moment I only see four resorts:

- Open source SkyOS
- Make SkyOS available for free
- Specialize on a yet to define niche
- Stop SkyOS development"

Maybe I'm missing the point but he has every right to do anything with SkyOS including shutting it down. It's his code. I would hope that he would just release the code under an open source license and go about his life with out having internet trolls slander his name over a failed pay-for beta program. If you guys who paid in feel cheated because you didn't receive updates and a final release then thats the chance you took when you paid in to a closed source beta program. I never looked at SkyOS as anything more than a hobby os. It had nice concepts but over all there is no market for it. Anyway anyone want to buy into my new beta program for my new beta yet to be coded operating system GhostOS. If anyone wants to join email me with your contact and banking info and I'll send you new releases and sneak previews and a final version as well as a live cd as soon as my code monkey gets finished with his bananna.

Reply Score: 3

Pre-paid ==
by fithisux on Tue 10th Mar 2009 20:22 UTC
fithisux
Member since:
2006-01-22

donation. At least open sourcing it would give others the opportunity to develop it. However it is a closed source project so legally you cannot say anything, but morally release the d1mned source.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Pre-paid ==
by ari-free on Fri 13th Mar 2009 03:27 UTC in reply to "Pre-paid =="
ari-free Member since:
2007-01-22

"At least open sourcing it would give others the opportunity to develop it"


"others" are developing all kinds of other OS's: linux, haiku, etc. SkyOS was interesting because it was *Robert's* OS and he made tremendous progress but it doesn't take a genius that it wasn't going to be sustainable in the long run

Reply Score: 2

Calm down..
by computrius on Wed 11th Mar 2009 01:25 UTC
computrius
Member since:
2006-03-26

People are acting like they forked over their life savings or something.. Really, you guys are blowing this way out of proportion. How suprised are you really? Honestly, I kind of saw this coming almost 2 years ago, progress has been on a steady decline for a long time.

I would like to see skyos continue, and it would suck if it didnt. But the money was pretty insignificant (compared to other oses), and has been gone for so long that I really dont see how that can be the main thing people are focusing on. People didnt b@(ch this much when zeta went away, and that cost over $100..

Edited 2009-03-11 01:28 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE: Calm down..
by nick_vaj on Wed 11th Mar 2009 15:26 UTC in reply to "Calm down.."
nick_vaj Member since:
2009-03-11

People are acting like they forked over their life savings or something.. Really, you guys are blowing this way out of proportion.


They mostly seem to be eating the troll bait (the article)

Reply Score: 1

Sigh
by nick_vaj on Wed 11th Mar 2009 08:56 UTC
nick_vaj
Member since:
2009-03-11

I guess I'll stop reading osnews now... it's turning into Thom's nasty little blog instead of a quality site about mainstream and alternative OS's.

Thom, please learn the meaning of the word "editor", nominally and ethically.

SkyOS is/was basically a one-man hobby project. Only idiots would pay up for the Beta in the belief that you were guaranteed a "final" product.

Paying "customer" or not, Thom has absolutely no excuse for smearing the name of a man who's life-situation and priorities has changed in such a way that he puts his hobby project on hold. This is the second article of that nature. If you have problems with how the situation is dealt with, take it up directly with Robert.

The *original* intent of OSnews was not sensationalism. It was to inform about and *encourage* these kinds of projects. Thom is doing the exact opposite: killing motivation. I bet Thom only makes Robert's priorities even easier now.

I only write this comment because Robert has spent years and years doing interesting work, always being helpful and taking feedback. Never, ever have i doubted his motives: have lots of fun making an alternative OS.

Thom certainly helps ruin that experience.

Thanks,

Nick Vajberg
Dan System Engineering Solutions

Edited 2009-03-11 09:01 UTC

Reply Score: 0

RE: Sigh
by Darkness on Wed 11th Mar 2009 11:48 UTC in reply to "Sigh"
Darkness Member since:
2005-08-27

SkyOS is/was basically a one-man hobby project. Only idiots would pay up for the Beta in the belief that you were guaranteed a "final" product.

That's a litte short around the corner...

I am also a long time beta tester and contributor. I payed because I thought it was an interesting project and I wanted to help a bit. It even helped me getting a job!

If everyone really wants a release then I would not mind if Robert labeled the current beta as final.

Complaining about money? Go out to a nice party and spend some money on beer. Now that is a good investment ;)

I still think SkyOS is interesting and wichever way Robert decides to go, I'll support him in that.

Reply Score: 1

nick_vaj
by liamdawe on Wed 11th Mar 2009 15:38 UTC
liamdawe
Member since:
2006-07-04

@nick_vaj
Seriously just shut up and walk away, you say your not going to visit the site anymore, so bugger off and stop trolling.

Thom is allowed to post whatever the heck he wants on the website, and i agree as a paying customer on everything that he is saying. Like i said before we was promised a final release and now we won't get one from him. That is what i paid for along with countless others.

And yes i along with many others have repeatedly asked in the private forum what was going on with development asking if it was dead, when staff members kept bashing us telling us it isn't dead...oh look it is.

It is also hard to make it not about Robert since it is a one man project, get the heck over it.

Jeezus "nick" your posts are just so annoying.

Edited 2009-03-11 15:39 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE: nick_vaj
by nick_vaj on Wed 11th Mar 2009 16:18 UTC in reply to "nick_vaj "
nick_vaj Member since:
2009-03-11


Thom is allowed to post whatever the heck he wants on the website


So am I, so far...

, and i agree as a paying customer on everything that he is saying.


Which is why you find me annoying. You are both wrong. Get over it.

It is also hard to make it not about Robert since it is a one man project, get the heck over it.


Yet, Thom claims it's not about him... QED.

Jeezus "nick" your posts are just so annoying.


Almost as annoying as yours.

Thanks,
Nick.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: nick_vaj
by Thom_Holwerda on Wed 11th Mar 2009 16:30 UTC in reply to "RE: nick_vaj "
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Yet, Thom claims it's not about him... QED.


It isn't about him indeed. It's about SkyOS and his customers. Not about Robert.

Reply Score: 1

payment or donation
by distantvoices on Thu 12th Mar 2009 18:20 UTC
distantvoices
Member since:
2005-07-06

Mebbe this is gonna strike like a load of crap hitting the fan ...

@Thom & other "paying customers":

Oh my, THom, you are about to wet your pants during the night if you continue to play around with fire like this.

You are not talking in my name here.

I have spent the ... howmuch? 30 freakin' dollar bucks? yeah, about 21 Euros iirc, big deal ... gladly to give Robert the possibility to get new hardware. It's just been a drop on a hot stone if anything. I've classified the payment as a donation like the ones I give to webcomic artists occasionally.

I for one understand Robert fully. You 're bashing around. Throwing a tantrum and kicking off a stampede for I do not know what. By the sounds of it, it looks as if you're leading a personal vendetta against Robert. I understand that he throws the shit at it and loses motivation.

Robert has full right to do with his project what ever he wants. If he wants to halt it, be it so. The lad has a family. You show me the wife with a child that tolerates the man sitting behind a frickin' screen 2/7. No one does, no one deserves being treated like that. The more, having a child means more than only being "father". It means taking care.

So, just shut it, call it a day and about the howmuch? 21 Euros - oh geez, hunny, don'tcha sweat it, eh? 21 Euro's ain't worth a f--kin' scream of "you've broken promise you bastard!", which is basically what your endless ululations express between the lines.

keep calm. It ain't worth the trouble.

stay safe

Edited 2009-03-12 18:22 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE: payment or donation
by yahya on Thu 12th Mar 2009 22:33 UTC in reply to "payment or donation"
yahya Member since:
2007-03-29

Mebbe this is gonna strike like a load of crap hitting the fan ...

@Thom & other "paying customers":

Oh my, THom, you are about to wet your pants during the night if you continue to play around with fire like this.

You are not talking in my name here.

I have spent the ... howmuch? 30 freakin' dollar bucks? yeah, about 21 Euros iirc, big deal ... gladly to give Robert the possibility to get new hardware.


The problem is, however, that Robert did not ask for donations for new hardware, but he offered a deal. If those who paid for beta access are now behaving like customers, that is because they were turned into customers by Robert himself, through sealing off the source code and making bold promises.

So now SkyOS is not just another abandoned project, it is a failed business. Just as BeOS and ZETA before.

You cannot first make a business out of it and offer a deal and when you fail to deliver, you just mutate back into the hacker you were before and pretend that it hadn't been serious all the way.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: payment or donation
by nick_vaj on Thu 12th Mar 2009 23:09 UTC in reply to "RE: payment or donation"
nick_vaj Member since:
2009-03-11

So now SkyOS is not just another abandoned project, it is a failed business. Just as BeOS and ZETA before.


Abandoned? I think it's time to reiterate Robert's last words on the matter so far:

"Anyway, I will do my best to find the best possible solution for SkyOS and its future."

This may very well mean that SkyOS - a very interesting project - gets opensourced.

And you guys keep dragging this guy into the dirt?

And you know what? This is just another OSNews troll fest. The ACTUAL beta testers who paid up doesn't mind Robert doing what he does. They encourage him and hope for an open sourcing process. Don't take my word for it; just read the friendly comments over at http://skyos.org/?q=node/647#comments.

I.e:
I paid my dues and joined the beta test. I vote that you should release everything under a BSD license and see how it benefits the world.

Get real, guys...

Edited 2009-03-12 23:13 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: payment or donation
by yahya on Fri 13th Mar 2009 07:40 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: payment or donation"
yahya Member since:
2007-03-29

"So now SkyOS is not just another abandoned project, it is a failed business. Just as BeOS and ZETA before.


Abandoned? I think it's time to reiterate Robert's last words on the matter so far:

"Anyway, I will do my best to find the best possible solution for SkyOS and its future."

"

Bernd Korz' "last words" on ZETA were pretty similar to that.

Edited 2009-03-13 07:40 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: payment or donation
by nick_vaj on Fri 13th Mar 2009 08:33 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: payment or donation"
nick_vaj Member since:
2009-03-11

Bernd Korz' "last words" on ZETA were pretty similar to that.


But that's not relevant. ZETA was a pirated copy [1] of BeOS so they had no choice. SkyOS have no such issues.

Nick.

[1] http://www.bitsofnews.com/content/view/5498/44/

Edited 2009-03-13 08:36 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: payment or donation
by yahya on Fri 13th Mar 2009 09:41 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: payment or donation"
yahya Member since:
2007-03-29

" Bernd Korz' "last words" on ZETA were pretty similar to that.


But that's not relevant. ZETA was a pirated copy [1] of BeOS so they had no choice. SkyOS have no such issues.

Nick.

[1] http://www.bitsofnews.com/content/view/5498/44/
"

That was only after Korz had announced that he ceases ZETA development and mulled about open-sourcing it.

Up to that point, the lack of transparency is what makes both businesses similar. Apart from that both were closed-source and did not collect donations but sold a product, part of which was a promise for future improvement, which both failed to deliver.

Again, you cannot have customers and then complain that they start behaving like customers...

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: payment or donation
by nick_vaj on Fri 13th Mar 2009 10:00 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: payment or donation"
nick_vaj Member since:
2009-03-11


That was only after Korz had announced that he ceases ZETA development and mulled about open-sourcing it.


As usual, you are wrong.

If you compare the ZETA and SkyOS cases, you obviously need an entry in my kill-file. LOL.

Nick.

Edited 2009-03-13 10:00 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: payment or donation
by yahya on Fri 13th Mar 2009 10:52 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: payment or donation"
yahya Member since:
2007-03-29

"
That was only after Korz had announced that he ceases ZETA development and mulled about open-sourcing it.


As usual, you are wrong.
"

Nope, I am not. Read the link you have posted. It was the announcement that ZETA development would cease and Korz' public deliberations about open-sourcing it, which actually prompted the reaction by ACCESS, Inc. As long as development was still ongoing, they never made any public statement about it.

If you compare the ZETA and SkyOS cases, you obviously need an entry in my kill-file. LOL.


Your business. Please go ahead.

Edited 2009-03-13 10:55 UTC

Reply Score: 1