Linked by Thom Holwerda on Thu 19th Mar 2009 13:51 UTC, submitted by shaneco
Internet Explorer About a year after the first beta (which was followed by another beta and a release candidate), Microsoft has announced the release of the final version of Internet Explorer 8, the company's newest browser. The focus of Internet Explorer 8 is better standards compliance, security, and making "common online tasks faster and easier".
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Awsome
by google_ninja on Thu 19th Mar 2009 14:01 UTC
google_ninja
Member since:
2006-02-05

This means that about 4-6 years from today, writing web sites will be a significantly better experience.

EDIT: just pretend that typo isnt there in the title. Should learn not to write stuff before my first coffee...

Edited 2009-03-19 14:02 UTC

Reply Score: 4

RE: Awsome
by dagw on Thu 19th Mar 2009 16:10 UTC in reply to "Awsome"
dagw Member since:
2005-07-06

This means that about 4-6 years from today, writing web sites will be a significantly better experience.

Timeframe sounds about right. The large(ish) international consultancy firm I work for only very recently approved its empoyees to (optionally) upgrade from IE6 to IE7 on their workstations. The company wide default browser is still IE6.

Reply Score: 1

v RE: Awsome
by sj87 on Thu 19th Mar 2009 17:36 UTC in reply to "Awsome"
RE[2]: Awsome
by kaiwai on Thu 19th Mar 2009 20:33 UTC in reply to "RE: Awsome"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

This means that about 4-6 years from today, writing web sites will be a significantly better experience.

No it doesn't. IE 8.0 does not support standards and it's slow. It may pass Acid2 but it just fails with JavaScript, the technology of web 2.0.


You do relise that first of all Acid3 test is not the be all and end all of tests - even the people who wrote the acid3 tests don't make grandiose claims that you are making.

Regarding standards; your post is nothing sort of a blatent attempt to lie about Internet Explorer 8 to justify your own browser decision; can't you just be happy that Internet Explorer has finally been updated so that it actually renders things as they are supposed to?

Good lord, I swear if you were any more negative it would sound as though I was stuck in an emo mosh pit at a My Chemical Romance concert.

Edited 2009-03-19 20:34 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Awsome
by trenchsol on Thu 19th Mar 2009 20:50 UTC in reply to "RE: Awsome"
trenchsol Member since:
2006-12-07

"JavaScript, the technology of web 2.0"......oh, dear.

Reply Score: 6

ie is now standards compatible!!!! :-D
by Adurbe on Thu 19th Mar 2009 14:06 UTC
Adurbe
Member since:
2005-07-06

Finally all the big players in the brower market have kept to the same standards :-D

Now all those web developers who used 'ie hacks' will need to update their code, I doubt this will be the fastest transition though as there are still plenty of ie6/7 systems out there

Reply Score: 1

vasko_dinkov Member since:
2005-09-13

> Finally all the big players in the brower market have kept to
> the same standards :-D

You are kidding, right?

Reply Score: 7

Adurbe Member since:
2005-07-06

it passes acid2.. what else do you want?

give me an example where its not compliant?

Reply Score: 1

sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

it passes acid2.. what else do you want?

Acid3? IE achieves acid2 compliance just as javascript eclipses css in importance. Yay.

CSS problems can keep a page from looking right. Javascript problems can keep a page or application from working at all.

Edited 2009-03-19 19:47 UTC

Reply Score: 1

Hiev Member since:
2005-09-27

Acid3?

Well, first show me all those page who needs Acid3 compliance, there pages barely using Acid2 compliance.

Reply Score: 2

sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

Well, first show me all those page who needs Acid3 compliance, there pages barely using Acid2 compliance.

Pretty much any page that uses javascript is in Acid3 territory. Nice try, though.

Reply Score: 2

lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

"Well, first show me all those page who needs Acid3 compliance, there pages barely using Acid2 compliance.
Pretty much any page that uses javascript is in Acid3 territory. Nice try, though. "

Precisely. Javascript performance, working through DOM2 and DOM3, is the area of major, intense competition in almost all browsers at this time. I think tracemonkey is the name of the new accelerated javascript engine in Gecko (with which they are having some trouble), but the javascript engine in Webkit (the name of which escapes me for now) seems to be leading the pack at this time. Impressive.

Meanwhile, IE hasn't yet even got off the start line in this race ... and the trigger on the start gun was pulled eight years ago.

PS: The name of the accelerated javascript engine in Webkit is "SquirrelFish", and later, "SquirrelFish Extreme ".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webkit#JavaScriptCore

Edited 2009-03-19 22:46 UTC

Reply Score: 2

Hiev Member since:
2005-09-27

Precisely. Javascript performance, working through DOM2 and DOM3, is the area of major, intense competition in almost all browsers at this time.

And all for the sake of marketing, since there is no market yet for such technologies, and pretty much no one is interested yet.

Reply Score: 1

Hiev Member since:
2005-09-27

Pretty much any page that uses javascript is in Acid3 territory.

Using your own logic IE8 is Acid3 compliance, because it renders most (if not all) of the "Acid3 territory".

Reply Score: 0

aliquis Member since:
2005-07-23

CSS problems can keep a page from looking right. Javascript problems can keep a page or application from working at all.


Solution: Stop using f--king java-scripts.

Reply Score: 1

lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

"CSS problems can keep a page from looking right. Javascript problems can keep a page or application from working at all.
Solution: Stop using f--king java-scripts. "

Real solution: Use a browser that gets Javascript compliance correct according to standards.

Even better solution: Use a browser with DOM2/DOM3 compliance, Xforms compliance and an accelerated Javascript engine that gets Javascript compliance correct according to standards.

Essential approach to real solution or even better solution: Don't use IE.

Edited 2009-03-20 01:59 UTC

Reply Score: 2

Adurbe Member since:
2005-07-06

correct me if im wrong but does the open source darling of browsers (firefox) pass the Acid3 yest?

p.s. The answer is no it does not

Reply Score: 1

lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

correct me if im wrong but does the open source darling of browsers (firefox) pass the Acid3 yest?

p.s. The answer is no it does not


Acid 3 is a series of 100 tests. Firefox 3.1 beta passes 93 of them. IE8 release passas just 21.

Reply Score: 2

Adurbe Member since:
2005-07-06

I am aware of how the acid tests work

Safari/Chrome and Opera are the only ones able to pass it at this time

Reply Score: 2

flynn Member since:
2009-03-19

Safari/Chrome and Opera are the only ones able to pass it at this time

Last time I checked the stable versions of Safari, Chrome and Opera still failed. Only the development/beta versions passed.

Reply Score: 1

vasko_dinkov Member since:
2005-09-13

Ah, if by "standards" you mean CSS 2.1 (without even proper W3C DOM CSS), then you are right.

Apart from that the list of examples is very long but Acid3 is a good start.

Reply Score: 1

lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

it passes acid2.. what else do you want? give me an example where its not compliant?


It doesn't have DOM2 (let alone DOM 3), by design. This is an ages-old shortcoming of IE, a deliberate omission of a major web standard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dom2

"Web browsers
A web browser is not obliged to use DOM in order to render an HTML document. However, the DOM is required by JavaScript scripts that wish to inspect or modify a web page dynamically. In other words, the Document Object Model is the way JavaScript sees its containing HTML page and browser state."


Not having DOM2 in turn leaves out a major component in javascript compliance.

It doesn't have SVG.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svg

Again, a major omission in IE. SVG became a web standard as long ago as 2001.

In a couple of years, we will be coming up on the end of a decade of major non-compliance in IE.

It is several steps behind other browsers in its implementation of CSS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Css

It doesn't have SMIL.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronized_Multimedia_Integration_La...

"SMIL, the Synchronized Multimedia Integration Language, is a W3C recommended XML markup language for describing multimedia presentations. It defines markup for timing, layout, animations, visual transitions, and media embedding, among other things. SMIL allows the presentation of media items such as text, images, video, and audio, as well as links to other SMIL presentations, and files from multiple web servers."


SMIL (in conjunction with fast Javascript) is, of course, a perfectly viable alternative to something like Silverlight. Trust Microsoft to go with its own, proprietary way of doing something, trying to make everyone have to use Microsoft software to do functions that should actually be universal standards.

SMIL 3.0 is the current standard. SMIL 1.0 was first put up as a web standard in 1998 ... so we are already at the first decade of non-compliance for that one.

Finally, there is Javascript.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javascript

IE has a slow and "unique" implementation of javascript, implemented in such a way that Javascript written to work in IE often won't work the same way in other browsers, and what works well in other browsers doesn't work in IE.

If IE implemented these standards properly ... then we wouldn't have any need at all for non-standards on the web such as Flash and Silverlight and ActiveX. All people would have equally rich access (depending on the capability of their equipment) without having to use one particular platform or another ... there would be such a thing as consumer choice in IT.

Reply Score: 9

aliquis Member since:
2005-07-23

acid3?

Reply Score: 2

...
by Hiev on Thu 19th Mar 2009 14:08 UTC
Hiev
Member since:
2005-09-27

An image say more than a thousand words.

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/5579/ie8osnews.jpg

Reply Score: 13

Wonder if...
by darknexus on Thu 19th Mar 2009 14:09 UTC
darknexus
Member since:
2008-07-15

Ms will eventually remove the IE7 compatibility mode? As long as that's there, and if it's going to be there for a while, many web developers will have no motive to change their code.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Wonder if...
by kaiwai on Thu 19th Mar 2009 20:44 UTC in reply to "Wonder if..."
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

Ms will eventually remove the IE7 compatibility mode? As long as that's there, and if it's going to be there for a while, many web developers will have no motive to change their code.


You're right; it reminds me of the argument over the Windows compatibility in OS2; it provides compatibility but to what extent is it used as a way to legitimise never actually having to provide a native version?

Microsoft needs to make a break from the past; people complained about Windows Vista but Windows Vista never made a totally clean break from the past and thus it is stuck in a merky half way point where applications kinda work rather than a simple black and white, yes it does work, no it doesn't work.

Internet Explorer 9 should be aimed to be released in a year, pass Acid3 compliance, a faster java script engine - possibly leveraging .NET/CLR JIT, and remove ALL backwards compatibility. Companies by that time would have had over a year to upgrade their products. If companies can't be bothered upgrading their products then customers of those companies should be offered by Microsoft free versions of Microsoft's equivilants as punishment for those companies failing to take care of their customers.

I for one am sick and tired of the hand wringing involved by companies who have known about Internet Explorer 8 for almost 2 years and the need to make their products compliant - but instead they spent the money on private jets, large bonus's that are totally unjustified and cutting R&D and staff numbers simply to artificially boost the share price at the expense of long term product development and maintenance.

Edited 2009-03-19 20:45 UTC

Reply Score: 3

UI is horrible
by evert on Thu 19th Mar 2009 14:10 UTC
evert
Member since:
2005-07-06

Thom, I wholeheartedly agree with you about the terrible user interface of IE7 and later. It is one of the primary reasons for me to use Firefox, even at the time of version 1 and 2 of FF when memory leaks were annoying. And now, thanks to some great FF plugins, I am an FF addict ;-)

Reply Score: 2

RE: ie -=- Aaaiiiiiiyeeee
by kaelodest on Fri 20th Mar 2009 00:36 UTC in reply to "UI is horrible"
kaelodest Member since:
2006-02-12

I was fully mistaken when I replied to the safari post (paraphrase) 'no browser when properly used can make your eyes bleed' I was horribly naively blindly wrong... I am only a few hours in so I will reserve anything about features for a hot minute.

How in world can this be the best they could do?

One more time: hug an independent developer today! Thank them for giving you choices.

This is the best they could do?

Lawd it stinks on soo many levels! Fuh Huggeley!

Reply Score: 1

Still Monopolistic abusive
by cyclops on Thu 19th Mar 2009 14:12 UTC
cyclops
Member since:
2006-03-12

Can you remove it from the Microsoft OS Yet!? This is the main feature I have looked forward to since IE4. Fingers Crossed.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Still Monopolistic abusive
by helf on Fri 20th Mar 2009 03:05 UTC in reply to "Still Monopolistic abusive"
helf Member since:
2005-07-06

That's a mighty fine horse ya got thar.

Reply Score: 4

Thanks
by sb56637 on Thu 19th Mar 2009 14:37 UTC
sb56637
Member since:
2006-05-11

You can thank the Mozilla and Opera guys for this release. If it weren't for them, we'd all be using a browser more or less similar to Internet Explorer 5.5 with no innovation and depending on Java applets to run any rich interactive content.

Reply Score: 7

RE: Thanks
by darknexus on Thu 19th Mar 2009 14:43 UTC in reply to "Thanks"
darknexus Member since:
2008-07-15

Don't forget about Webkit, and/or Safari as well.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Thanks
by arooaroo on Fri 20th Mar 2009 12:12 UTC in reply to "RE: Thanks"
arooaroo Member since:
2005-07-06

Don't forget about Webkit, and/or Safari as well.


In which case we mustn't forget to thank khtml (the embeddable html component found in KDE) from which webkit was derived.

Reply Score: 1

Not released til Noon
by TaterSalad on Thu 19th Mar 2009 14:43 UTC
TaterSalad
Member since:
2005-07-06

I went to download this and it kept coming up as RC1, then I actually RTFA linked in the summary and its not released til Noon ;) 1 hour and 17 mins and counting.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Not released til Noon
by REM2000 on Thu 19th Mar 2009 16:13 UTC in reply to "Not released til Noon"
REM2000 Member since:
2006-07-25

over at www.neowin.net they have posted direct links to RTM files

Ive downloaded and am running IE8 on Vista (build ends in 18702).

It's amazingly quick, as quick and sometimes quicker than chrome on the same pc.

We have everyone in the web browser arena for this release, however i think out of them all Firefox has been the browser to put the most pressure on Microsoft. So congrates to compeition as it proves once again that competition drives innovation and improvements for everyone.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Not released til Noon
by Thomas2005 on Fri 20th Mar 2009 13:24 UTC in reply to "RE: Not released til Noon"
Thomas2005 Member since:
2005-11-07

We have everyone in the web browser arena for this release, however i think out of them all Firefox has been the browser to put the most pressure on Microsoft.

I will agree 100% with you on this point. Before Firefox was released Microsoft said they would not release any more stand-alone versions of IE, and future versions would be "tied" to a specific version of Windows (i.e. IE7 + Longhorn, IE8 + Windows 7, etc). Once Firefox came out and started to gain market-share, Microsoft decided to reverse direction and release IE7 as a stand-alone application. Granted, it does not have everything when used with XP as it does with Vista, but Microsoft did release it as a stand-alone application. Now we have IE8, and starting with Windows 7 we can have a version of Windows without IE installed.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Not released til Noon
by lemur2 on Sat 21st Mar 2009 09:02 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Not released til Noon"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

starting with Windows 7 we can have a version of Windows without IE installed.


Sorry, but no. You will reportedly be able to "turn IE off" (whatever that really means) but it will not be un-installed.

Having said that ... I'd rather have IE8 on any Windows system that either IE6 or IE7, and I will recommend IE8 to Windows users who ask me.

Edited 2009-03-21 09:04 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Not released til Noon
by werpu on Sun 22nd Mar 2009 11:33 UTC in reply to "RE: Not released til Noon"
werpu Member since:
2006-01-18

over at www.neowin.net they have posted direct links to RTM files

Ive downloaded and am running IE8 on Vista (build ends in 18702).

It's amazingly quick, as quick and sometimes quicker than chrome on the same pc.

We have everyone in the web browser arena for this release, however i think out of them all Firefox has been the browser to put the most pressure on Microsoft. So congrates to compeition as it proves once again that competition drives innovation and improvements for everyone.


Actually I am somewhat underwhelmed by this release, while I applaud the efforts obviously undertaken to support CSS properly, I see where the competition is and where Microsoft stands and all I can say is. First of all there is a huge load of people who still have not moved away from IE6 so even the new release so the pain everybody in web development has to endure wont change. But at least there now is a common ground which is CSS 2.1 which everyone can follow for all other browsers which makes the support of ie8 more or less a no brainer. But IE7 still will be an issue for the years to come if those not migrated yet will to migrate to ie7 first (which unfortunately will happen)

But the main reason why I am underwhelmed is the still lacking support for the newest ECMAScript standards, which again leaves us without real namespaces and real inheritance, instead of rolling your own both constructs would have helped a lot to improve framework interoperability. And the fact that Microsoft was able to fork SVG successfully for silverlight but not supporting the real thing in their own browsers in 2009 still is a shame :-(

So what is left, a release while I personally applaud it from a web developers standpoint leaves me cold!

Reply Score: 1

"common online tasks faster and easier"
by zegenie on Thu 19th Mar 2009 14:52 UTC
zegenie
Member since:
2005-12-31

Several of my "common online tasks" involves using javascript extensively. When all other major browser players significantly enhances that experience, and IE8/Microsoft does *not*, I would say that claim is a flat out lie.

Reply Score: 3

fretinator Member since:
2005-07-06

I imagine it is faster and easier than IE7.

Reply Score: 2

Trash
by microFawad on Thu 19th Mar 2009 15:54 UTC
microFawad
Member since:
2005-12-09

Finally the trash is out ;)
Don't use it, just put it in your trash can...

Reply Score: 1

RE: Trash
by magineer on Thu 19th Mar 2009 19:59 UTC in reply to "Trash"
magineer Member since:
2009-03-19

You mean Recycle Bin, right?

Reply Score: 3

Comment by Kroc
by Kroc on Thu 19th Mar 2009 16:12 UTC
Kroc
Member since:
2005-11-10

How long ’till it hits Windows Update is what I’m interested in.

Reply Score: 1

Forced Upgrade
by systyrant on Thu 19th Mar 2009 18:39 UTC
systyrant
Member since:
2007-01-18

I'm forcing everybody where I work to upgrade to 8. Well when it becomes available on the Windows update site.

The main reason for this is because I've tested the company's upcoming website in the beta and RC versions of IE 8 and it works flawlessly without the need for code tweaks.

IE 8 is still far behind other browsers, but at least it's better than it has been. I can't force people to adopt firefox, safari, or opera, but I can at least get them to upgrade to IE 8.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Forced Upgrade
by coolvibe on Thu 19th Mar 2009 20:15 UTC in reply to "Forced Upgrade"
coolvibe Member since:
2007-08-16

Aren't you contradicting yourself a bit here? Might as well force them to use Firefox. Or better yet, don't force anything, just provide Firefox and IE8.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Forced Upgrade
by systyrant on Thu 19th Mar 2009 20:37 UTC in reply to "RE: Forced Upgrade"
systyrant Member since:
2007-01-18

No. They have websites they have to use that won't work in anything but internet explorer. Thank you US Government for helping the Microsoft Monopoly. ;)

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Forced Upgrade
by kaiwai on Thu 19th Mar 2009 20:51 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Forced Upgrade"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

No. They have websites they have to use that won't work in anything but internet explorer. Thank you US Government for helping the Microsoft Monopoly. ;)


Ooh, the temptation to go on one of my Ayn Rand/Libertarian trademark rants over the evils of big government and how it entrenches monopolistic bebehavior is very intense ;)

Lets put it this way; if government wasn't so big, and people's reliance of having to interact with it on some level was that of being trivial (and the limited amount required was done using open standards formats) - then maybe we wouldn't have the entrenched Microsoft monopoly because of it ;)

Reply Score: 0

looks interesting, i'd give it a try, so
by vege on Thu 19th Mar 2009 19:12 UTC
vege
Member since:
2006-04-07

when will it be released for Linux? ;)

Reply Score: 2

systyrant Member since:
2007-01-18

The third Tuesday after never.

Reply Score: 2

soonerproud Member since:
2008-03-05

For uber 1337 haxors the release for Linux was today. I bet you there are uber 1337's getting it to run in WINE as I type.

Reply Score: 1

raver31 Member since:
2005-07-06

For uber 1337 haxors the release for Linux was today. I bet you there are uber 1337's getting it to run in WINE as I type.



No, I think there is zero 1337 haxors who actually want to run it, either through WINE or natively !

Edited 2009-03-19 22:29 UTC

Reply Score: 2

soonerproud Member since:
2008-03-05

No, I think there is zero 1337 haxors who actually want to run it, either through WINE or natively !


Don't be so certain of that. There are countless tutorials on how to run both IE6 and IE7 in WINE. I gurantee you there are ubber 1337 haxors trying to get IE 8 running just so they can say they did it and then they will write a tutorial just to get some noob to pat him/her on the back.

Edited 2009-03-19 22:56 UTC

Reply Score: 2

Actually impressed
by ssa2204 on Thu 19th Mar 2009 20:12 UTC
ssa2204
Member since:
2006-04-22

I have not used IE since the first release of Firefox. I was not impressed at all with IE7, it seemed like a just good enough stripped down browser. After just downloading IE8 I must say I am actually impressed. And it is indeed a very fast browser. Currently just got done comparing it to Chrome, Firefox, and Safari beta 4 and it stacks up very well. It remains to be seen whether I will use this as a primary browser, I still have a preference to Firefox. But hopefully, just maybe the Firefox team will get off their asses and release an improved browser as v3 has become really just a dog.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Actually impressed
by suryad on Thu 19th Mar 2009 21:06 UTC in reply to "Actually impressed"
suryad Member since:
2005-07-09

I agree for the most part. In fact I am writing this post from IE8 and its decent. I ran some javascript benchmarks and looks like it is definitely quicker than IE7 was but still a bit behind when compared to Firefox 3. However I dont see any speed differences when it comes to browsing experience. I still dont understand what it means when people say that the browser feels faster...is it startup time or page render time? I guess I cannot tell the difference between Firefox loading up a page and IE8 loading up a page because it seems on my machine they all load up equally as fast.

Reply Score: 2

MollyC
Member since:
2006-07-04

copy elements of it.

Firefox 3 merges the Back/Forward navigation stacks into one button, which is a convention introduced by IE7.

Chrome removes the menu bar and adds Page and Tool dropdown controls, this is also a convention introduced by IE7.

I'll also note that when IE7 came out, many Microsoft bashers ripped apart these particular things, but they were totally silent when FF and Chrome adopted them.

My problem with IE7's UI isn't the UI itself, but the slowness of its implementation. I've not tried IE8; hopefully that's been improved. Chrome, I think, has the potential to have the best UI; there are numerous annoying quirks that need to be addressed first.

Reply Score: 2

TBPrince Member since:
2005-07-06

I'll also note that when IE7 came out, many Microsoft bashers ripped apart these particular things, but they were totally silent when FF and Chrome adopted them.


Well said. Don't forget the phishing filter or IE8 slices, back to the XMLHTTP stuff. ;-)

Personally, I think IE8 is a good approach. The meta element to force IE7 compatibility is a good solution.

Used it for a few hours and it looks faster than IE7 and as stable. I'm curious to give the new Javascript implementation a try...

Reply Score: 2

lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

"I'll also note that when IE7 came out, many Microsoft bashers ripped apart these particular things, but they were totally silent when FF and Chrome adopted them.
Well said. Don't forget the phishing filter or IE8 slices, back to the XMLHTTP stuff. ;-) Personally, I think IE8 is a good approach. The meta element to force IE7 compatibility is a good solution. Used it for a few hours and it looks faster than IE7 and as stable. I'm curious to give the new Javascript implementation a try... "

Mind you, XUL is pretty handy too, unmatched by any other browser.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=xul+apps+-defaced&meta=

It is not a standard, but it is based on standards:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XUL

Then there is always HTML5

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Html5

DOM scripting

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOM_scripting

XHTML

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XHTML

ODF viewer for web browser

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/1888

SOAP

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SOAP_(protocol)

XQuery and XSLT

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XQuery
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XSLT

Lots and lots of innovation for which Microsoft has a huge catchup required to get anywhere close to the current state of play.

Reply Score: 4

People who don't know better...
by bousozoku on Thu 19th Mar 2009 23:51 UTC
bousozoku
Member since:
2006-01-23

People who don't know better are likely better off running version 8 instead of version 7.

There will be a lot of people out there who won't download Firefox or Opera and will think Safari will cost them since it comes from Apple. If Internet Exploder version 8 is any safer than version 7, I'd rather have them running version 8. There are likely a lot of people still on version 6 who need to change.

It's definitely not a perfect choice, but any move from the old, screwy coding for IE 6 will be a blessing and getting people off that browser version will be a start.

Reply Score: 2

Doc Pain Member since:
2006-10-08

It's definitely not a perfect choice, but any move from the old, screwy coding for IE 6 will be a blessing and getting people off that browser version will be a start.


I really hope this new version of "Internet Explorer" will inspire web developers / web designers to stick with the existing standards, instead of spending time in creating hacks and workarounds for the defective previous versions of "Internet Explorer". Being compliant to standards is numero uno, at least on my very individual list, when it comes to browser capabilities. Those who create their HTML 'n stuff in a standardized manner won't have to rewrite anything at all, no special "re-working" for "Internet Explorer".

Reply Score: 2

lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

"It's definitely not a perfect choice, but any move from the old, screwy coding for IE 6 will be a blessing and getting people off that browser version will be a start.
I really hope this new version of "Internet Explorer" will inspire web developers / web designers to stick with the existing standards, instead of spending time in creating hacks and workarounds for the defective previous versions of "Internet Explorer". Being compliant to standards is numero uno, at least on my very individual list, when it comes to browser capabilities. Those who create their HTML 'n stuff in a standardized manner won't have to rewrite anything at all, no special "re-working" for "Internet Explorer". "

You do realise that IE8 has almost negligible market share. On its own it is the browser with the least influence right now.

Non-IE browsers already comply pretty well with standards, and non-IE browsers already account for well over 50% of all browsers ... yet unfortunately those facts have still not resulted in the utopia where "Those who create their HTML 'n stuff in a standardized manner won't have to rewrite anything at all, no special "re-working" for "Internet Explorer"".

Edited 2009-03-20 04:59 UTC

Reply Score: 2

bousozoku Member since:
2006-01-23


You do realise that IE8 has almost negligible market share. On its own it is the browser with the least influence right now.

Non-IE browsers already comply pretty well with standards, and non-IE browsers already account for well over 50% of all browsers ... yet unfortunately those facts have still not resulted in the utopia where "Those who create their HTML 'n stuff in a standardized manner won't have to rewrite anything at all, no special "re-working" for "Internet Explorer"".


I think 13 hours isn't enough time for the production version 8 to have much marketshare or influence at all.

My thinking is that it doesn't matter how many knowledgeable people move away from IE 6 because they're probably not using it, unless forced at work, anyway.

We need the people who don't realise how dangerous it really is to change at least, to a newer version. Some people will find Firefox or Opera or even Safari on their own, but most people will wait until the browser is placed in front of them without thinking.

Reply Score: 2

Doc Pain Member since:
2006-10-08

You do realise that IE8 has almost negligible market share. On its own it is the browser with the least influence right now.


Exactly - right now, and there's still lots of crappy HTML n stuff around that was made to work on older "Internet Explorer" versions. If only the "compatibility feature" would disappear, this "non-HTML" wouldn't work anywhere, and developers could concentrate on the standards, instead of on the workarounds for a particular browser.

Non-IE browsers already comply pretty well with standards, and non-IE browsers already account for well over 50% of all browsers ... yet unfortunately those facts have still not resulted in the utopia where "Those who create their HTML 'n stuff in a standardized manner won't have to rewrite anything at all, no special "re-working" for "Internet Explorer"".


I'm aware of the fact that most (!) other browsers treat HTML and the other standards as what they are: standards that you better follow (instead of inventing your own "MS-HTML"). I'd like to see at least this one MICROS~1 product in this group, so it would be less problematic to write HTML that is interpretable as it should.

Don't get me wrong, it doesn't appear very often that I comment on MICROS~1 stories here, and especially when I do a quite positive comment (as I did and do at the moment) I put hope into it. The future will tell if MICROS~1 will finally come to that point that they respect existing standards and stop keeping theirselves out of the "conformity group".

The web stuff I do usually runs very well on all browsers I take into testing, starting from Lynx (important for blind users) up to Firefox 2 and 3 and Opera and Safari. The only browser where problems were reported to me was this "Internet Explorer". I really hope this will stop. If I write valid HTML, I expect the browser to handle it correctly.

By the way, my favourite browser functionality would be a built-in validator. And if the source isn't valid HTML, it displays an error box "This page doesn't containt valid content and cannot be displayed." :-)

Reply Score: 2

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Non-IE browsers already comply pretty well with standards, and non-IE browsers already account for well over 50% of all browsers


Are we including the neglicable market share of mobile browsers here or what?

Because on the desktop, there is no way IE has less than 50% market share. Sadly, it's still somewhere around 60-80%, depending on location.

Reply Score: 1

lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

"Non-IE browsers already comply pretty well with standards, and non-IE browsers already account for well over 50% of all browsers


Are we including the neglicable market share of mobile browsers here or what?

Because on the desktop, there is no way IE has less than 50% market share. Sadly, it's still somewhere around 60-80%, depending on location.
"

Of course. One doesn't have to be sitting at a desktop in order to be using a browser to access the web. These days, one could easily be using one's mobile phone.

Reply Score: 2

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Well, even with all those crappy mobile browser included (and by god they suck, including the iPhone's), IE's share is still somewhere around 60-70%. Sad, but true.

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/browser-market-share.aspx?qprid=0

Mobile browsers barely make a dent in the total browsing market since, well, they suck.

Edited 2009-03-20 09:47 UTC

Reply Score: 1

lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

Well, even with all those crappy mobile browser included (and by god they suck, including the iPhone's), IE's share is still somewhere around 60-70%. Sad, but true.

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/browser-market-share.aspx?qprid=0

Mobile browsers barely make a dent in the total browsing market since, well, they suck.


I see your hitslink bet, and I'll raise you a w3schools.

http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp

Edited 2009-03-20 10:11 UTC

Reply Score: 1

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Those statistics are heavily skewed, and W3C even admits that. It's also quite obvious that they are, since they come from just one website (W3C's), a website which is most likely visited by computer savvy people anyway.

The NetApp stats come from like 200 major sites that are not focussed on one specific group. The NetApp stats obviously are also just an approximation, but they are a lot more reliable than the ones from just the W3C website. That's pretty damn obvious.

Me thinks you slept during statistics class. Our own OSNews stats aren't reliable either for the exact same reason.

Reply Score: 2

renox Member since:
2005-07-06

[[You do realise that IE8 has almost negligible market share. On its own it is the browser with the least influence right now.]]

If Microsoft push IE8 in their upgrades, its market share could increase *very* fast though.

Reply Score: 2

lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

[[You do realise that IE8 has almost negligible market share. On its own it is the browser with the least influence right now.]] If Microsoft push IE8 in their upgrades, its market share could increase *very* fast though.


Only at the expense of other versions of IE.

If that happens, I would welcome it. IE8 is better than other versions of IE.

Reply Score: 2

werpu Member since:
2006-01-18

"It's definitely not a perfect choice, but any move from the old, screwy coding for IE 6 will be a blessing and getting people off that browser version will be a start.


I really hope this new version of "Internet Explorer" will inspire web developers / web designers to stick with the existing standards, instead of spending time in creating hacks and workarounds for the defective previous versions of "Internet Explorer". Being compliant to standards is numero uno, at least on my very individual list, when it comes to browser capabilities. Those who create their HTML 'n stuff in a standardized manner won't have to rewrite anything at all, no special "re-working" for "Internet Explorer".
"

The problem is, most web developers nowadays know how to write correct page code which is following standards, but then there is one thing, you dont want it you really hate it, but customers insist of supporting old IE versions. If you do not support IE6 you will loose the contract period, it is that sad...
So in the end you end up writing perfectly passing standards code and then sink 20% of additional time into IE6 hacks via conditional include and 5% additional time into ie7 hacks... IE8 so far for me has been sort of a no brainer, thank god, but I do not try to use anything newer and avoid SVG (unfortunately)

Reply Score: 1

Acid 3
by Xaero_Vincent on Fri 20th Mar 2009 03:35 UTC
Xaero_Vincent
Member since:
2006-08-18

IE 8 gets 20/100.

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/8122/acid3.png

I haven't tried FF 3.1 beta 3 yet to see how compliant the bleeding-edge Gecko engine is but FF 3.0.7 gives me 71/100.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Acid 3
by lemur2 on Fri 20th Mar 2009 03:49 UTC in reply to "Acid 3"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

IE 8 gets 20/100. http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/8122/acid3.png I haven't tried FF 3.1 beta 3 yet to see how compliant the bleeding-edge Gecko engine is but FF 3.0.7 gives me 71/100.


FF 3.1 beta 3 is only about 93/100.

http://hothardware.com/cs/forums/t/42342.aspx

It also still has a bug or two in tracemonkey. This latter point is apparently the hold-up that is still keeping it in beta.

Reply Score: 2

Wow...more work
by Phloptical on Fri 20th Mar 2009 23:39 UTC
Phloptical
Member since:
2006-10-10

Now I have to find a way to block IE8 from being downloaded on work computers, until we can get everything tested.

IE8 is a pig.....I'm not looking forward to this.

Reply Score: 2