Linked by David Adams on Mon 25th May 2009 21:22 UTC
OSNews, Generic OSes Over the years, we've occasionally run an "Ask OSNews" feature, wherein a reader asks us a question and we answer it publicly. Lately I've really been enjoying Slate's Dear Prudence advice column and the ever-interesting Straight Dope, and I thought we should see if we can get more OSNews readers to submit questions, and turn Ask OSNews into a more-regular thing. If your question falls outside of our domain expertise, we'll try to track down an expert to help out. And of course, our responses will always be supplemented by further advice from OSNews readers in the comments. Questions are welcome on any topic ranging from OSes and computing to science and geek culture. Contact us with your questions. (Please include "Ask OSNews" in the subject). Today's question is from a young student in Hungary who's seduced by the faraway siren song of Apple's marketing and wonders, "should I switch?"
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Depends on the price
by Tom K on Mon 25th May 2009 21:40 UTC
Tom K
Member since:
2005-07-06

I don't mind paying the slight premium for Apple stuff because in the long run I waste less time making stuff work, and that pays off in the end. I'm probably also prolonging my life a bit by not getting pissed off at Windows all the time. :-)

However, with an entry-level unibody MB costing over $1800 US in Hungary, I'd really have to think long and hard about that. Then again, what does a PC laptop with equivalent specs and nice build quality cost? If it's still over a thousand, I'd just suck up the difference and get the MacBook.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Depends on the price
by moondevil on Mon 25th May 2009 21:52 UTC in reply to "Depends on the price"
moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

David has given a pretty good advice.

Unfortunately Apple products tend to cost a lot of money in Europe. In some European countries you will be very happy person, if you manage to earn more than 1000 euros per month.

So it not that easy to say that paying the difference is worth the effort.

Myself I already been two times about to buy Apple products and ended up buying PC instead, because of the ration cost/hardware that I would get.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Depends on the price
by godawful on Tue 26th May 2009 17:07 UTC in reply to "RE: Depends on the price"
godawful Member since:
2005-06-29

Isn't much of this due to VAT? a quick google search reveals Hungary's VAT at 20%, and it's my understanding (I could be wrong) that in Europe, the price shown includes VAT.

Whereas in the US, no taxes are shown in the price though just about every state has sales tax, in California thats 7.25% which doesn't include the local municipalities tax which I _think_ raise it to a total of 9.25%.

If this is all correct, they prices aren't really that much different. That being said, Apples are generally more expensive than the equivalent pc, but to me that doesn't matter, it's worth it.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Depends on the price
by werterr on Thu 28th May 2009 01:22 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Depends on the price"
werterr Member since:
2006-10-03

Besides higher taxes, I think the mean difference is Apple. As far as I understand Apple charges the same prices in Euro's as they do in Dollars. Since the Euro is worth a lot more then a dollar (about 1.4 dollars for 1 euro) this amounts to quite a difference.

If the apple product costs 1800 dollars is should cost 1300 euro not 1800 euro... ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE: Depends on the price
by computrius on Tue 26th May 2009 02:43 UTC in reply to "Depends on the price"
computrius Member since:
2006-03-26

Slight price premium is a bit of an understatement. I recently compared the cost of me building the equivilent of the highest end imac. With a 24" monitor it still costed $1000 less. $1000. Thats a bit more than a slight price premium.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Depends on the price
by kaiwai on Tue 26th May 2009 03:42 UTC in reply to "Depends on the price"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

I don't mind paying the slight premium for Apple stuff because in the long run I waste less time making stuff work, and that pays off in the end. I'm probably also prolonging my life a bit by not getting pissed off at Windows all the time. :-)

However, with an entry-level unibody MB costing over $1800 US in Hungary, I'd really have to think long and hard about that. Then again, what does a PC laptop with equivalent specs and nice build quality cost? If it's still over a thousand, I'd just suck up the difference and get the MacBook.


That is the entry price for a unibody model; the question he should first ask himself is whether he needs a unibody model or whether he is happy with the classic white model which is US$999.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Depends on the price
by Liquidator on Tue 26th May 2009 07:22 UTC in reply to "Depends on the price"
Liquidator Member since:
2007-03-04

In Europe, a low-end desktop computer bought on a comparison web site is €200. An iMac is €2000. That's a huge difference, and most of the time, a low-end computer will do the job (using a web browser, running MS Office). I don't know what the user is talking about when he says struggling with Windows. Since the XP series, Windows has proven to be stable.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Depends on the price
by puenktchen on Tue 26th May 2009 09:25 UTC in reply to "RE: Depends on the price"
puenktchen Member since:
2007-07-27

In Europe, a low-end desktop computer bought on a comparison web site is €200. An iMac is €2000.


wtf? an imac sells for 1000 € and your low-end desktop simply doesn't compares to it.

That's a huge difference, and most of the time, a low-end computer will do the job (using a web browser, running MS Office).


if that are your only needs, get an old imac g3 for maybe 50€. or an imac g4 for maybe 100 € if you want some luxury and the ability to run leopard.

Edited 2009-05-26 09:26 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Depends on the price
by Liquidator on Tue 26th May 2009 09:30 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Depends on the price"
Liquidator Member since:
2007-03-04

an imac sells for 1000 €


Only if it's a previous generation of Macs and on eBay.

if you want [...] the ability to run leopard.


I don't like OS X ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Depends on the price
by r_a_trip on Tue 26th May 2009 13:29 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Depends on the price"
r_a_trip Member since:
2005-07-06

wtf? an imac sells for 1000 € and your low-end desktop simply doesn't compares to it.

On a characteristic for characteristic basis it probably doesn't come even close. The big question you have to ask yourself, is do I need all the characteristics of an Apple machine?

Apples have:

Excellent aesthetics
Durable design to last the ages
Limited, therefore well supported, hardware
High end components
Stable and easy UNIX operating system (plus option to run Windows)
Excellent productivity suites
A hefty pricetag for all the premium goodness

Apple also has tendency to drop current technology like a hot potatoe if tomorrows technology is deemed better and their customers are expected to follow (purchase newer Apple kit) or be left behind with obsoleted equipment.

Low end desktops have:

Crappy aesthetics (debatable)
Less durable design (debatable)
Huge choice in hardware, therefore sometimes less well supported
Choice of high end or low end components
Huge choice in available operating systems
Excellent productivity suites
Modest price tags, because of the advantages of scale

Generic x86 hardware can be upgraded piece meal (most of the time) within current budget constraints.

At the end of the day, we use computers to accomplish tasks. Doesn't matter if we program, surf the web, draw pictures, write, make web pages, chat or game. First we need to look at what we want to do with the machine and then we need to establish the set of minimal requirements a machine needs to have to be able to do all the desired tasks.

The big question then becomes what does that premium Mac do that the generic x86 doesn't and is the extra expense to be made for the Mac justifiable for the purpose of the tasks we need to do.

In my case the Mac has lost this inventory time and again.

Do I need stunning aesthetics to complete my tasks? No, as long as the box doesn't have flashing lights, it can look like a beige, silver or black breadbox.

Do I need durable design to last the ages? No. I don't frisbee with my equipment, so it doesn't need to be indestructible. It just has to last as long as I am willing to use the hardware and that is directly related to how fast it becomes obsolete performance/compatibility wise.

Am I willing to accept limited choice in hardware? No. I like to be able to compose my own mix of hardware characteristics. Apple is pretty much a done deal, take it or leave it.

High end components. Well, todays high end (and expensive) components, are tomorrows budget parts. Getting a high end machine will only last you nominally longer before it becomes obsolete. As an average user, I've never been able to justify buying the latest and greatest rationally. Certainly not when looking at the price/performance ratio. When it is about the brag factor, then one might have a point.

Stable and easy to use UNIX operating system. If one isn't too computer savvy, OS X is an excellent choice. I liked what I saw in a Hackintosh VMWare setup, but for me, UNIX-like Linux gives me everything that OS X has, maybe not as slick or quite as easy, but then again I manage pretty well and Linux doesn't need specific pricy hardware to run. Also, since the advent of Windows XP SP2 and Vista/Windows 7, Windows has become a decent platform.

Productivity suites. A dime a dozen. All major platforms are plenty stocked.

The hefty price tag. Well, from a price/performance ratio, Apple always lost the deal with me. I have enough skills to keep an OS running well and I refuse to believe that there are OSes that never screw up. So practically Apple delivers more than I need. Which is why the budget PC with Linux is a better fit for me than a higher priced Mac.

To bring in the annoying car analogy... Ferrari cars are a pinnacle of luxury, but it is a safe bet to assume there are more Peugeot 206's on the road than ferrari's. Plus the Peugeot will leave more money in your bank account to do other stuff.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Depends on the price - ah, Windows
by jabbotts on Tue 26th May 2009 12:02 UTC in reply to "Depends on the price"
jabbotts Member since:
2007-09-06

I asked my machine to reboot out of Windows last night about nine; the boot menu's default should get me out of the gaming system and leave my lovely productivity OS waiting. Instead, I wake this morning and check the machine on the pay past too the door only to find Windows sitting there with an error.

I hit the [OK] button and it powers off. Odd, I selected "restart".

I press the power button and it spins up dropping me back on a Windows desktop. WTF!

I ask it to restart again and click through two more errors before it finally rolls over to an OS produced by people who give a shit about quality.

This wouldn't be a problem if it was an anomoly but last time I had it booted over to Windows I had the same dance party shutting it down.

Seems it's time to take a few hours to check all installed software for updates. If I didn't need Windows for gaming; I'd have called in a sick day just to stay home and format the f--king code off my hardware.

(I'm still open to win7 being better still be we'll have to see how it goes.)

Reply Score: 3

solarcontrol Member since:
2008-11-17

LOL - you snatched the words from my lips.
I was about to edit my previous post (again) and add that he should try a dual-boot setup.

I'm on Linux Mint or ArtistX unless I'm playing the ONE STINKIN' GAME that I play..
For that I must boot to XP.

Reply Score: 1

jabbotts Member since:
2007-09-06

Such glitches are often some driver or hardware issue on Windows machines. For me though, shutting down is a function of the OS and a userland program shouldn't be able to hang the system beyond the OS's ability to kill the process.

Instead of booting over and doing some gaming, I'll now have to go through the Asus support site for later driver and utility versions. The hung process is one of the system monitoring utilities; apparently telling me temperature, fan speed and processor usage is that complicated.

Reply Score: 2

OSX
by miscz on Mon 25th May 2009 21:54 UTC
miscz
Member since:
2005-07-17

Just try it. It's not like there aren't dozens of third party drivers for OSX created by community. You can run it on about any modern CPU, fairly popular motherboard chipsets etc.

Personally, I don't like it. OSX just gets in my way. Dock, Finder, window management (essentials) are mostly easy to get and pretty but you'll run into a lot of limitations. I'm too lazy to go into detail, see it for yourself.

Apple PCs might be worth the price if you value the new and shiny factor. Apple usually comes out first with new hot stuff from Intel and Nvidia for notebooks lately and other manufacturers follow in a month or two. I like the new Macbooks a lot, sleek, powerful, nice battery life. Just wouldn't pay for one ;)

Reply Score: 6

RE: OSX
by Johann Chua on Tue 26th May 2009 02:49 UTC in reply to "OSX"
Johann Chua Member since:
2005-07-22

I like OS X--under the hood. Much prefer Classic Mac OS, interface-wise.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: OSX
by kaiwai on Tue 26th May 2009 03:45 UTC in reply to "RE: OSX"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

I like OS X--under the hood. Much prefer Classic Mac OS, interface-wise.


Reminds me of the interface of Mac OS X Server 1.0 when it first came out; still retained alot of the stylings from NeXT which avoided the excessive eyecandy which Mac OS X has become known for.

Reply Score: 3

Dear osnews...
by darknexus on Mon 25th May 2009 22:08 UTC
darknexus
Member since:
2008-07-15

If the advice given to people is "stick with Windows, since it's what you're familiar with," how do we ever expect to get away from the monoculture that currently plagues most of the market?
That being said... Apple products are majorly expensive in a lot of places outside of the U.S, so if you can't justify the difference it is perfectly understandable in that respect.

Reply Score: 6

RE: Dear osnews...
by Adam S on Tue 26th May 2009 12:58 UTC in reply to "Dear osnews..."
Adam S Member since:
2005-04-01

Your post, translated:

Dear reader: it suits my agenda better for you to struggle with the change, so even though you'd likely be more productive and spend more money up front, I'd prefer to inconvenience you, mostly because I disagree with Microsoft's politics. You will get a better system of out of this, therefore, I feel comfortable recommending something based more on what's good for everyone else rather than what works best for you.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Dear osnews...
by darknexus on Tue 26th May 2009 13:14 UTC in reply to "RE: Dear osnews..."
darknexus Member since:
2008-07-15

What, exactly, was the point of that except to start a flamewar? I would have expected better from someone on the osnews staff.
My question, fyi, was an honest one. Everywhere I turn, everyone says stick to the familiar... never mind, though, that it may not be the right choice for the person in question in the long run. The comfort zone is not always best, that's just a fact of life.
Hat's off to an osnews staff member, for attempting to turn an honest question into a flamewar... just so you know, it won't help your ad revinue from me to do so... I have adblock plus enabled for all sites.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Dear osnews...
by Adam S on Tue 26th May 2009 13:21 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Dear osnews..."
Adam S Member since:
2005-04-01

Oh for f*&%'s sake, don't get your panties in a twist, it was a joke. Your entire argument can be safely summed up as "it's more important to serve a greater purpose than it is for you to buy what works for you." In my book, that's the worst possible advice and exactly the type of thing we discourage here: zealot-type behavior. You're putting the needs of others ahead of the needs of your end user.

It's so manipulative to suggest that I can't comment honestly on a post simply because I'm on staff. Try to remember that online, there's no tone or context, so before you go picking a fight, remember, not everything was meant aggressively. Just because someone calls you on your post doesn't mean it's a flamewar.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Dear osnews...
by darknexus on Tue 26th May 2009 13:42 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Dear osnews..."
darknexus Member since:
2008-07-15

Dude, I think you need to work on your jokes... the target knowing it's a joke is a pretty important part of it all. ;)

Reply Score: 2

Do it!
by ebasconp on Mon 25th May 2009 22:21 UTC
ebasconp
Member since:
2006-05-09

I am a developer (Linux, BSDs and UNIX fan), I bought a white macbook two months ago and I am very happy with it.

MacOSX is a nice OS, all its hardware works perfectly and it is a perfect development environment for implementing stuff for any Unix, MacOS X, iPhone and, through VMs, Windows.

The user experience is very well developed and the hardware quality is very very good.

Reply Score: 3

Make a list...
by matthekc on Mon 25th May 2009 22:22 UTC
matthekc
Member since:
2006-10-28

Make a list of all the things you will want to do with your machine. For example "word processing", "power points", "games", "Skype", "I-tunes"...
Unfortunately for a lot of people the list will narrow their OS choices away from open source. Now figure out you budget lets say you want to spend less than a thousand dollars or Euro equivalent this year. Add up your machine cost, office cost, games, music purchases etcetera.
Now you have pretty good idea of what you want to do and what it is going to cost you and that will help you decide.

Edited 2009-05-25 22:24 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE: Make a list...
by computrius on Tue 26th May 2009 02:49 UTC in reply to "Make a list..."
computrius Member since:
2006-03-26

Well if games is a criteria there inst really much of a choice there. OSX does have some selection, but nothing beats out windows there. Anything else is just pitiful as far as selection.

Edited 2009-05-26 02:49 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Make a list... - selection, no..
by jabbotts on Tue 26th May 2009 17:43 UTC in reply to "RE: Make a list..."
jabbotts Member since:
2007-09-06

In terms of selection, Windows has a kind of limited library. Now, what it does have is the blockbuster titles. You may get a larger game library on other platforms but you won't get Crysis or Modern Combat.

But with gamers, it's usually about one or two specific titles; whatever is popular that week. I fall into that same category too though my "popular that week" is usually a few titles behind because I just can't justify a triple SLI dedicated game rig.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Make a list... - focus on functions
by jabbotts on Tue 26th May 2009 17:40 UTC in reply to "Make a list..."
jabbotts Member since:
2007-09-06

I think your bang on with the idea of making a list but I'd suggest focusing on functions. One doesn't iTune, one plays music and video. Even in the case of the iPod, other media managers can handle the sync back and forth.

It just seems that most of the problems people find are due to a brand name versus a function easily provided by a long list of programs.

Reply Score: 2

matthekc Member since:
2006-10-28

If you have an Iphone you will likely need Itunes... sad but true.

Reply Score: 1

This is exactly the type of advice...
by mrhasbean on Mon 25th May 2009 22:26 UTC
mrhasbean
Member since:
2006-04-03

...I have given people for over 24 years.

Despite regularly being called a fanboy by the likes of Thom my advice to people has always been to stay with what you are used to. As much as I am passionate about Apple and OSX - I've been using, selling, supporting and developing for Apple computers for over 30 years - I know that the most important thing in making the decision is the USER. Not the geeks, not the salesperson, not even people like me having to constantly remove trash from client's - and even my extended family's - (Windows) computers because they don't take notice when told what Anti-virus software to run or regular maintenance to perform.

When it comes to using computers most people learn mechanics rather than concepts so switching OSes is difficult for them. So unless they're young (most young people pick things up very quickly and have a more open minded approach), have little computer experience or exhibit an ability to learn conceptually I wouldn't even entertain the idea of trying to "switch" them. My comment has always been "For day to day use I personally wouldn't use anything but a Mac, but you have to feel comfortable using it so unless you're willing to spend time relearning some things stay with what you know."

Anyone who does otherwise is doing their customers or friends a disservice...

Reply Score: 5

OS X "deficiencies"
by SonicMetalMan on Mon 25th May 2009 22:32 UTC
SonicMetalMan
Member since:
2009-05-25

Ironically OSX and Windows both share an underlying trait - the baggage of their earlier incarnations are becoming more apparent with every new release. Former NeXT users can clearly see their OS at the heart of any new Mac. Windows can't get away from some level of legacy app support and yet another ho-hum GUI rehash. Both OS's have holes in their GUI's that leave them somewhat less than "complete" where advanced system management is concerned.

Bottom line -

Learn to live with what you got. Change is painful unless you are prepared for a ton of frustration.

Linux anybody?

Reply Score: 1

RE: OS X "deficiencies"
by Hypnos on Tue 26th May 2009 04:21 UTC in reply to "OS X "deficiencies""
Hypnos Member since:
2008-11-19

The NeXT/OPENSTEP setup worked pretty well -- what holes are there in OSX's implementation and deployment of this API?

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: OS X "deficiencies"
by kaiwai on Tue 26th May 2009 09:41 UTC in reply to "RE: OS X "deficiencies""
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

The NeXT/OPENSTEP setup worked pretty well -- what holes are there in OSX's implementation and deployment of this API?


Many old school NeXT users have said there are features in NeXT which never made their way accross to Mac OS X. I guess some of the ideas had to be rethought to fit into the 'Mac way' of doing things. Lord knows Apple doesn't want an operating system akin to Windows which appears to be a wall where ideas are thrown against in a hope something sticks.

Edit: Sorry I can't give specifics since I never used NeXT - I can only go by what I hear.

Edited 2009-05-26 09:42 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: OS X "deficiencies"
by Hypnos on Tue 26th May 2009 11:39 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: OS X "deficiencies""
Hypnos Member since:
2008-11-19

AFAIK, at the API level Cocoa is a pretty complete rendition of OPENSTEP. Same classes, runtime and development tools, most notably XCode/Project Builder and Interface Builder.

Certainly, the user experience is very different, and that does turn off the old NeXT afficionados. Also, purists may not like that the old NeXT Display PostScript engine has been replaced by the PDF-based Quartz.

I'd be curious to learn what experienced developers on both platforms have to say on this topic; if you have a link to such a discussion that would be appreciated.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: OS X "deficiencies"
by kaiwai on Tue 26th May 2009 13:37 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: OS X "deficiencies""
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

AFAIK, at the API level Cocoa is a pretty complete rendition of OPENSTEP. Same classes, runtime and development tools, most notably XCode/Project Builder and Interface Builder.

Certainly, the user experience is very different, and that does turn off the old NeXT afficionados. Also, purists may not like that the old NeXT Display PostScript engine has been replaced by the PDF-based Quartz.

I'd be curious to learn what experienced developers on both platforms have to say on this topic; if you have a link to such a discussion that would be appreciated.


http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=98168

I do seem to recall I was very vocal about how Cocoa Services, system-wide will bring back much of what made Openstep a dream desktop environment; and a big aide for third party devs to cooperate with one another and not reinvent the wheel over and over, thus bringing leaner, more focused applications that gives back as well as gets back functionality across the OS.

This is the first version I'm truly excited to be using and developing on.


So it appears that some of the wings had been clipped when moving to Mac OS X. I also have a feeling that some of the ideas that NeXT were working on (before the buy out but never made it into the final product) were waiting for the right moment to appear.

Reply Score: 2

RE: OS X "deficiencies"
by r_a_trip on Tue 26th May 2009 13:41 UTC in reply to "OS X "deficiencies""
r_a_trip Member since:
2005-07-06

Linux anybody?

Yes please! It is more hands on, thats true, but if you can work it; bliss.

Reply Score: 2

Mac OS X is out of question.
by sergio on Mon 25th May 2009 22:38 UTC
sergio
Member since:
2005-07-06

You can go Dell+Hackintosh if you don't have money for a Mac. But at the end... I think It's a stupid choice.

If you don't buy a new notebook every 6 months, paying $200 more or $200 less isn't a big deal. Today computers last so much longer than 8 years ago... price is an overrated issue.

Even the cheapest Macbook has enough processing power. Yes, you can get a more powerful Dell with same money... but who really cares?!

Reply Score: 2

RE: Mac OS X is out of question.
by dagw on Tue 26th May 2009 09:30 UTC in reply to "Mac OS X is out of question."
dagw Member since:
2005-07-06

paying $200 more or $200 less isn't a big deal.

Agreed, except we're not talking $200. Here in Sweden the price difference between the cheapeast Apple laptop and the cheapest laptop with equivalent spec is over $900. Now we can argue quality all day and we'd probably even agree, but $900 is still a lot of money no matter how you look at it.

That being said I really really want a 17" macbook pro, but I'll be the first to admit it's hardly a raitional purchase pricewise.

Reply Score: 3

puenktchen Member since:
2007-07-27

Here in Sweden the price difference between the cheapeast Apple laptop and the cheapest laptop with equivalent spec is over $900.


the cheapest macbook sells for 1265 us$ in sweden. and you can buy an equivalent laptop for 365 us$? not bad! i'll pay you a visit this summer.

"an imac sells for 1000 €


Only if it's a previous generation of Macs and on eBay.
"

fud. the standard price for the smallest imac is 1099€ in germany and 1032€ for students, including no less than 19% sales tax.

"if you want [...] the ability to run leopard.


I don't like OS X
"

and i didn't talk to you.

apples are expensive enough, you don't have to resort to lies to make them seem even more expensive as they are.

Reply Score: 3

dagw Member since:
2005-07-06

the cheapest macbook sells for 1265 us$ in sweden. and you can buy an equivalent laptop for 365 us$? not bad! i'll pay you a visit this summer.

My mistake, I take it back. I got the prices wrong. The price difference is only $600, which makes it more reasonable.

Reply Score: 3

My first home computer was a Mac ...
by softdrat on Mon 25th May 2009 22:43 UTC
softdrat
Member since:
2008-09-17

... in 1988. Back then MS Windows did not exist - PCs used DOS. The differences between a PC and a Mac at the time were much bigger than they are today. Still, I made an extensive comparison of the two platforms, and in the end decided that either one could do everything I needed. I picked a Mac because its overall "footprint" was smaller - I lived in an attic apartment with limited space at the time.

For your stated purposes I imagine that, once again, either platform would work, but a Mac might have the edge (multimedia stuff). Why worry? This is an excellent opportunity to try something different.

Where I work, we used to have a mix of Windows and Linux machines, but Macs have nostly taken over. [I'm the person who signs the requisitions.]

Reply Score: 1

hardware NOT more reliable
by lqsh on Mon 25th May 2009 22:47 UTC
lqsh
Member since:
2007-01-01

I bought an aluminum MacBook about a month ago. After a week or so, it would not charge. Apple told me it needed to be replaced, so returned it.

The replacement MacBook lasted about 3 weeks until the CD/DVD drive stopped working - getting it replaced.

I like OS X. I love the trackpad! The trackpad actually makes me more productive.

My MacBook is very quiet and stays cool.

Reply Score: 1

RE: hardware NOT more reliable
by tyrnight on Mon 25th May 2009 22:57 UTC in reply to "hardware NOT more reliable"
tyrnight Member since:
2006-10-05

you just had a bad run of luck..

I actually buy the Refurbs from apple and they definitely are SOLID.. Im on Macbook pro 17" #2 (just cuz I like to upgrade) and Im waiting for the unibody 17" to make its way into the refurbs.. cheaper price and the warrantee is the same..

I would Definitely recommend the refurbs

Edited 2009-05-25 23:03 UTC

Reply Score: 1

FooBarWidget Member since:
2005-11-11

I don't think so. A friend and I both bought a MacBook Pro simultaneously. His video card has a quirk and messes up the entire screen every time it gets too hot, forcing him to reboot. He looked it up on the Internet and apparently it's a factory error that many people suffer from.

My MacBook Pro doesn't have this problem, but it freezes from time to time. And with freeze I mean a kernel freeze - not even the mouse pointer works anymore. One of my USB stick isn't recognized by OS X: after inserting it, nothing happens. It's not broken because it works fine on my Linux laptop.

The keyboard isn't as productive as it can be because it lacks the Delete, Home, End, PageUp and PageDown buttons. Instead I have to emulate them with Fn.

About the only goods thing I can say about the mac is that the screen is very good and it's quiet.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: hardware NOT more reliable
by kaiwai on Tue 26th May 2009 09:46 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: hardware NOT more reliable"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

So what you're telling me is you sit around with all these problems, you could take it back and get it fixed but you choose not to because it serves as a good chest nut when whining about Apple.

Are you sure you don't suffer from Münchausen syndrome?

Reply Score: 1

FooBarWidget Member since:
2005-11-11

No, I can't take it back and get it fixed.
- It's not me who has the video card problem, it's my friend.
- There's nothing to fix unless they're willing to build Delete, Home, End, PageUp and PageDown buttons into the keyboard.
- The freezes and unrecognized USB stick problems are software problems. The only way to fix this is through a software update, not by returning it to the store.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: hardware NOT more reliable
by kaiwai on Tue 26th May 2009 13:51 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: hardware NOT more reliable"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

No, I can't take it back and get it fixed.
- It's not me who has the video card problem, it's my friend.


I wasn't even talking about him, I am talking about YOU and what YOU said:

My MacBook Pro doesn't have this problem, but it freezes from time to time. And with freeze I mean a kernel freeze - not even the mouse pointer works anymore.


Or am I making that up?

- There's nothing to fix unless they're willing to build Delete, Home, End, PageUp and PageDown buttons into the keyboard.


I grouped it all under the same heading, obviously you lack the intelligence to distinguish between things that can be fixed versus things that are part of the design by don't fit your preference.

- The freezes and unrecognized USB stick problems are software problems. The only way to fix this is through a software update, not by returning it to the store.


So you can fix it! oh, so it is a bug and Apple fixed it?! If it doesn't work you take it back; if it keeps freezing, take it back, keep taking it back until the damn thing is fixed. You think that sitting in the corner like an emo is going to fix it? good lord; you really aren't making it easy for yourself by refusing to actually do anything about it.

Reply Score: 2

FooBarWidget Member since:
2005-11-11

Or am I making that up?


So you're saying that returning my Mac to the store will magically fix OS X kernel bugs? Yes, you are making that up.

I grouped it all under the same heading, obviously you lack the intelligence to distinguish between things that can be fixed versus things that are part of the design by don't fit your preference.


Don't care, broken is broken. The customer is the king.

So you can fix it! oh, so it is a bug and Apple fixed it?!


No, it isn't fixed. There is no update which fixes it: even after installing the latest updates it still doesn't work.

If it doesn't work you take it back; if it keeps freezing, take it back, keep taking it back until the damn thing is fixed.


Taking it back won't fix software problems. I know this because I'm a developer.

You think that sitting in the corner like an emo is going to fix it?


You think that personal attacks make your points more valid?

Edited 2009-05-26 13:59 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: hardware NOT more reliable
by kaiwai on Tue 26th May 2009 14:20 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: hardware NOT more reliable"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

If the product doesn't work as intended then you have the right under consumer protection to take it back and expect it to be fixed - a product is sold to fulfil a certain task, if it is failed to do so then it is the responsibility of the vendor to fix it.

Again, sitting there complaining without doing anything is stupid - you can do so something, you take it back and say that you attack the USB device and it freezes; you are using the device as intended and it fails to do as it should - the liability falls back on Apple to fix the flaw. If they fail to fix the flaw then you go to the Consumer Commission who will then take it further.

There are processes in place - but you choose not to use them; why is it my fault that you fail to use those processes?

Reply Score: 2

dpmchris Member since:
2009-05-27

On Mac portables (and without key markings)

page up = fn+up arrow
page down = fn+down arrow

home = fn+left arrow
end = fn+right arrow

delete is fn+delete

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: hardware NOT more reliable
by yakirz on Tue 26th May 2009 18:35 UTC in reply to "RE: hardware NOT more reliable"
yakirz Member since:
2006-05-11

I bought my white MacBook, 2 GHz Core Duo refurbed. It's been a great machine, I've had it since January 2007. I did have to send it in two or three times, once for a DVD drive issue, once for cracked plastic near the trackpad, and once for a problem with the screen.

I haven't had problems since then. I think the refurb Macs are a good value unless you get a semi-lemon like mine (it's fine now but had to spend a week away at a time for those repairs).

Reply Score: 1

software license matters
by aeischeid on Mon 25th May 2009 22:55 UTC
aeischeid
Member since:
2009-05-25

I am surprised that there wasn't more said about the license issue. One of the reasons that I recommend Linux is because of the open source nature. Even if I don't happen to recommend Linux for whatever reason, I try to take the opportunity to explain why open source matters, and for the most part people appreciate understanding those things better.

Specifically I usually recommend Linux Mint to my friends when they ask. I suggest anyone considering an apple for the stability, usability, and aesthetics take a look at Mint.

Reply Score: 4

RE: software license matters
by krreagan on Tue 26th May 2009 17:29 UTC in reply to "software license matters"
krreagan Member since:
2008-04-08

Most users don't care about the license. It only matters to the politically inclined. Linux is too flaky for the average user to deal with... That's why it still has such a small desktop penetration after all these years. It won't get any better for the foreseeable future either. Dispite what people say, Linux is only for the geek (or geek wannabe's).

OS X is much simpler for the average user and more powerful for the expert user. (the HW and drivers are all well known and don't have any where near as many compatibility issues as Linux). You can run windows or linux on a mac if needed, but this is becoming much less necessary.

Reply Score: 2

Well
by Thom_Holwerda on Mon 25th May 2009 22:56 UTC
Thom_Holwerda
Member since:
2005-06-29

Well, tomorrow I'm getting a dual-core Atom 330 mini-ITX machine, which should be able to run Mac OS X without actually hacking Mac OS X (meaning, no DMCA violation, meaning, foolproof updates from Apple), thanks to boot-132. We'll see how hard it is to run Mac OS X this way.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Well
by Wondercool on Mon 25th May 2009 23:11 UTC in reply to "Well"
Wondercool Member since:
2005-07-08

Thom, which computer is that? I am interested in a dual Atom mini-itx as a HTPC.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Well
by Bobthearch on Tue 26th May 2009 00:37 UTC in reply to "Well"
Bobthearch Member since:
2006-01-27

If you have time to write and submit a story, I'd love to read about how that project works out, including a specific hardware list.

Reply Score: 2

No you should not buy a Mac
by Wondercool on Mon 25th May 2009 23:06 UTC
Wondercool
Member since:
2005-07-08

Of course, this 'discussion' is going to be a big flame fest, but what the hell, I bite:

No, you should not buy a Mac. I did a year ago, to see what the fuzz was about (a Mini G4), I rarely use it now.

Where to start?
- Hopelessly overpriced (ALL Apple's). Both software and hardware.
- Incredibly bad designs. I hear you huffing and puffing but let me explain. All Mac's look gorgeous, but almost every piece of hardware has major flaws. Apple takes form over function, something you should not do for a something you use every day. The one button mouse: hopeless, and the 2 button white mouse? even more hopeless. The keyboards? I have the wireless Bluetooth white keyboard, they keys are so heavy to hit, it is painful. The keyboard of the older Mac G3 is too small and also has a horrible feel. Non standard display port? why? Using the Apple key for cut and & paste instead of the more ergonomical Ctrl key on the outside? No cut & paste in an iPhone? Why, why?
- Apple is one of the most irritating companies on the planet, with little to no respect for its customers or fanboi's. It ranges from sueing fans for hosting websites about Apple, tie-ins with iTunes, DRM, using open source but not giving (much) back, mobile phones that need ridiculous expensive contracts with single vendors, ad hoc decisions who is allowed to develop for the iPhone and sueing people for using Apple software in a way that the company does not want (Psystar)
-the cult of Mac, for blindy following the leader with no criticism - after all, it's an APPLE!
-Mac OS is at best mediocre, too many flaws to mention, ranging from a bad finder, ergonomy, lack of customisation, games, but it looks pretty!

Steer clear!

Reply Score: 6

RE: No you should not buy a Mac
by Comadr3am on Tue 26th May 2009 00:55 UTC in reply to "No you should not buy a Mac"
Comadr3am Member since:
2009-05-26

I agree,

My freind recently bought a mac and it is driven him nuts with the little things. I thought he was crazy untell I gave it a try, the more I used the more the it was aparent.

While there were things that were cool I found my self saying, hay thats in the gnome desktop also. He also bunrt me a few files and when i got home to check them out Ubuntu would not read them unless I was in root. (Not shure if that is a normal thing for linux type os's as im makeing the switch from windows) But hay they do look nice, but then so does a HP with Ubunut Studio 9.04.

Reply Score: 4

RE: No you should not buy a Mac
by Shane on Tue 26th May 2009 01:45 UTC in reply to "No you should not buy a Mac"
Shane Member since:
2005-07-06

I find it harder to reach ctrl when it is on the lower left corner of the keyboard. I always bind ctrl to caps lock on all the OSes that I use. Trivial to do so. If you don't like the defaults, why put up with them?

Reply Score: 1

RE: No you should not buy a Mac
by mszl on Tue 26th May 2009 05:25 UTC in reply to "No you should not buy a Mac"
mszl Member since:
2008-09-11

I would NOT buy a Mac.
* It's overpriced eye candy. It's a scam where you're paying for the name.
* It does not have the amount of software that Windows has, especially for businesses and small offices like Windows does. For instance, an M.D. friend that is a Mac fanatic uses -- or tries to -- in his solo practice. His loyalty to Mac is pathetic to watch after seeing all the frustration he goes through to try to get software he needs if it exists. Most of the time it doesn't but there is always a Windows version. It's like he's in a cult.

* Apple sees the writing on the wall. The current Mac Gui/OS isn't better than Windows Vista/7. That's why they are in the telephone business.

Reply Score: 1

RE: No you should not buy a Mac
by FooBarWidget on Tue 26th May 2009 06:54 UTC in reply to "No you should not buy a Mac"
FooBarWidget Member since:
2005-11-11

If it weren't for the fact that I have to develop software for Mac users, I would have sticked to my Linux laptop. I agree that Macs are hopelessly overpriced. They introduce vendor lock-in. For example if I want to be able to plug my Mac into a foreign electric outlet then I have to by an Apple travel adapter kit. I cannot just use a normal adapter that works with every other electric device and is 60% cheaper.

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: No you should not buy a Mac
by jokkel on Tue 26th May 2009 07:34 UTC in reply to "RE: No you should not buy a Mac"
jokkel Member since:
2008-07-07

Are you joking? Of course you can! You can replace the plug with any standard two pole cable in the world.

Reply Score: 1

FooBarWidget Member since:
2005-11-11

Do I look like I'm willing to waste 25 euros as a joke? The Mac power adapter doesn't fit in a normal electric converter: it's slightly larger than normal electric adapters, preventing me from plugging it into a normal electric converter. Hence vendor lock-in.

Reply Score: 2

v RE: No you should not buy a Mac
by kaiwai on Tue 26th May 2009 10:00 UTC in reply to "No you should not buy a Mac"
Wondercool Member since:
2005-07-08

Oh why oh why do I feed the trolls (notice he is a one-post wonder - post something then run?)


Err, unlike others I try not to repeat myself with the same arguments, I thought my post speaks for itself? And more importantly, why is someone a troll if he posts only once?


How about not lying.


Ad hominem attack, I only stated my opinion.


You pay to get Mac OS X; I'd buy a PC if Windows wasn't such a horribly disfuctional operating system whose UI design is so counter intuitive you wonder whether it was created that way simply to 'stick it to the man' (the man being the Xerox UI design and subsequent variations up on that like Atari, Amiga and Apple with the single menu at the top of the screen etc).

Don't get me started on Linux where one plays, "pray that your computer works properly with it". Hardware feedback? useless; I read pages about a given printer supported by Linux only to find that the people offering feedback HAD NEVER USED IT.


You are avoiding the point here: Apple's are expensive.
Agreed, Windows is not very useful out-of-the-box but there is so much free software out there that it doesn't matter that much. If you buy Windows, you get 5 years worth of service packs (XP), Apple makes you pay every 18 months if you want to upgrade.


I have a Mighty mouse right now, it has 4 buttons; two side, two top and the 'nipple' ontop is also a button. What more do you need? Or are you one of those individuals with a button fetish whose modus operandi amounts to "the more buttons the better". Talk about boys and their toys!

What the hell are you going on about? I have a keyboard right now and it uses the same chicklet keyboard as my Macbook - oh, thats right, you're complaining about stuff from 2 years ago! yes, its alot easier to complain based on outdated information than debate based on 2009 specifications.


You are avoiding again, yes you can name some hardware that works well, all I say is: my experience with some of that expensive Apple hardware is horrendeous.
Other people have some opinions about Apple's Might mouse too. Here is a link. The whole thread is interesing.
http://hardware.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1216799&cid=27769445


...Non standard display port? why?

Where? give specifics - you mean the new unibody MacBooks?


Yes and mini's (mini DVI)
http://www.apple.com/macbookpro/specs.html
and
http://www.apple.com/macmini/specs.html

Using the Apple key for cut and & paste instead of the more ergonomical Ctrl key on the outside?

And thus the conclusion that you're a troll. I might as well say Windows sucks because insists on using the pointless Startmenu to load applications.


It's easier to reach the CTRL key with your little finger and your index finger than to reach the Apple key with your thumb and reach over with your index finger, though I guess it is partially what one is used to.


...
And thus you further re-enforce what I stated; you're a troll. If you weren't you wouldn't have done a post and run.


I am here, my post was at 1am, I need to sleep as well!
You didn't address the points that Apple is a company that treats its customers with little respect.

No, I'm not going to moderate you down because life is punishing you enough already.


I thought voting down on OSNews is only used if something is factually not right or obnoxious, I was only stating my opinion..

Reply Score: 2

kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

I thought voting down on OSNews is only used if something is factually not right or obnoxious, I was only stating my opinion..


You were presenting opinion as fact - that is what I object to. You can have what ever opinion you want, the moment you start declaring your opinion as fact - just as you did, you lose all credibility. You also failed to enter into any sort of meaningful dialogue - are you here to enter into a conversation or do you expect a monologue where you can do a sermon on the mound with all those present merely bobbing their head in agreement?

By the way, I never moderate people down because that would be openly declaring that I'd sooner silence your opinion than post a reply. Unlike a good portion here, I am not a coward who needs to shut off my brain and engage my clicking finger instead. If I have a problem with a post I either rebut, ignore or flame them.

People who moderate posts down are no better than those who throw the first punch - vile and disgusting creatures who resort to primitive ways of behaving that allow them to disengage their brain from any possible thinking.

Reply Score: 1

Wondercool Member since:
2005-07-08


You were presenting opinion as fact - that is what I object to. You can have what ever opinion you want, the moment you start declaring your opinion as fact - just as you did, you lose all credibility.


IMHO, I don't see how my post is different from others in tone in this thread? Isn't posting in a forum/comment section not by default an opinion? Or should I start all my sentences with "In my humble opinion"?


...You also failed to enter into any sort of meaningful dialogue - are you here to enter into a conversation


Note, I was a parent poster, as such there is little to react on except the original article. Where other people reacted on my post, you chose to quote me and tell me that I should stop lying and accused me of being a troll and a one-time poster. When I replied, you tell me I don't enter in meaningful conversation.


...or do you expect a monologue where you can do a sermon on the mound with all those present merely bobbing their head in agreement?


No not really, maybe some reactions why Apple is a friendly company or some other experience on the ergonomics.

On what do you have a different view? I gave examples why I have my opinion for all except the Clan of Mac.

Reply Score: 2

Windows Sucks Member since:
2005-11-10

"You are avoiding the point here: Apple's are expensive.Agreed, Windows is not very useful out-of-the-box but there is so much free software out there that it doesn't matter that much. If you buy Windows, you get 5 years worth of service packs (XP), Apple makes you pay every 18 months if you want to upgrade."

Yes Mac's are expensive, but they last longer and have a much better resale value then a better Windows machine. So if I get a Mac book for $1000 and a better Dell for $800 after 3 years my Mac will be worth more if I want to sell it.

Also the Mac OS does come out every 18 months, looks like MS is following that now also. BUT for the full Mac OS its $129. Been that Way since 2000. With Windows you have to wait till the day of release to figure out if the price for a similar version of Windows will cost %5 or %10 more then the last version of Windows which is going to be no less then $200 if you want a good version.

Also I am still using Tiger on half my machines still which came out in April of 2005 and its still fully supported by Apple. Each version is supported for almost 5 years even though the new version comes out during that time.

Oh and lord forbid if you want to go from XP to Windows 7. You have to perform back flips. LOL! While I can move from almost any version of OS X to almost every new version so far with almost no issues. Even if I want to start from scratch its simple:

1. Make an image of the hard drive to a USB drive using the disk utility. (Boot from the USB drive to make sure it's bootable)

2. Wipe the drive and install the new Mac OS.

3. Keep the USB drive with the bootable image plugged in, boot with the new OS, in the set up the OS will ask you if you have an older Mac, it will see the USB drive with the image as an older Mac and ask you if you want to move all your data, files, settings etc to the new install.

4. Reboot and you are like new with the new OS and all your old settings. If you have a problem with the new set up you can just boot from the USB image and image your old install back to the machine from the USB drive.

Try that 4 step process on a Windows machine. Your data will be in the ether. LOL! Only thing more simple then upgrading a Mac or moving to a new Mac is upgrading your iPhone OS.

I mean using a Mac is like using an alarm clock. You plug it in and go. It just works. Shoot the hacked version of Mac OS 10.5.7 I have on my MSI Wind U100 works better then Linux and Windows 7 beta on the same machine. This also goes against the fake point that the Mac OS only runs good because Apple controls the hardware. I also have a hacked version of Mac OS on my Dell GX620 desktop. Works fine.

The point of my post is that price doesn't mean anything. The usability is where its at. Consumer Reports and other rating companies almost always rate Apple near or at the top in Quality and Customer satisfaction.

Reply Score: 3

bobo123 Member since:
2009-05-26

Now that Mac went with Intel, your wonderful machines and Tiger software's days are numbered. In a few short years you will have to upgrade, as a long time Mac user friend of mine is finding out. All the new stuff is coming out Intel and only a few things are Universal. Still you can build a Hackintosh for $400 and run stuff faster than a Mac at three times that price. I run Leopard, Win7, and Linux all on the same cheap box with a Cameleon boot loader front end. That way I get the best of all worlds without emulators and virtual machine limitations. And I have to tell you Leopard is no better than Ubuntu or Win7 when it is all said and done. They are just a means for running the software applications you put on them. The PC has the majority of good free applications simply because there are so many developers working on them. Linux is next, followed by a few good graphic programs for the Mac. The only one I know worth while that is not on PC or Ubuntu is final cut. I can do just about everything else on my Intel Core i7 in neck break speed. Do not think you can do much watercooling and overclocking on that vanilla Mac of yours.

Edited 2009-05-26 21:22 UTC

Reply Score: 1

Windows Sucks Member since:
2005-11-10

Now that Mac went with Intel, your wonderful machines and Tiger software's days are numbered. In a few short years you will have to upgrade, as a long time Mac user friend of mine is finding out.


Ummmmm, Tiger runs on Intel just fine?? If your Mac came with Tiger (Like my 2 GHZ core duo Intel Imac) or you can get an Intel version of Mac OS from ebay or craigslist on the cheap (But you can also get Leopard)

I mean Tiger has been out for quite some time now (Since April of 2005) and is still supported with patches etc until Snow Leopard comes out (And maybe longer then that)

So I wont HAVE to upgrade anytime soon. I can choose to upgrade if I like. Its not like my software is just gonna stop working. I would most likely upgrade my Tiger machines when they stop issuing patches.

As far a Windows goes. XP is is on lifesupport and only because MS knows Vista sucks. But once Windows 7 gets to rolling XP is done for and Vista not long behind.

And I don't need to Watercool my Macs they run just fine with out all that. And you can't in a million years tell me with a straight face that you have an Ubuntu machine that runs as well as a Mac. Ubuntu has more bugs then a roach motel. Shoot if you can even get the sound working 100% on an Ubuntu machine I would be shocked.

Windows 7 is pretty good so far. But I want to actually keep my data from being stolen. And no matter if you say its security or security through obscurity my data is still safer on a Mac. And Windows XP is some kiddy stuff compared to Leopard.

The thing I love about my Mac is that I have NEVER, Ever crashed one of my Macs in day to day use. (That includes patching etc) The Mac OS is pretty darn solid. Not perfect by far but more stable then Windows Vista and any desktop version of Linux.

Edited 2009-05-27 03:44 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE: No you should not buy a Mac
by bert64 on Tue 26th May 2009 13:57 UTC in reply to "No you should not buy a Mac"
bert64 Member since:
2007-04-23

Why do macs use the apple keys for cut+paste instead of CTRL? For consistency, if you use ctrl+c for cut, what happens in a shell based app where ctrl+c means kill (and this behaviour predates any gui)?
Best case you have an inconsistent method of cutting+pasting when in terminal based apps, worst case you accidentally kill your terminal based apps.

Reply Score: 2

Switching not just for the young
by DarlaJ on Mon 25th May 2009 23:08 UTC
DarlaJ
Member since:
2008-10-04

I would tell anyone who can possibly get the money together that there will be a big payoff in going with a Mac, much more for those who are not technically proficient. I think Windows is for people who enjoy a challenge.

I started with CP/M 29 years ago, then MS-DOS, Windows 3.1, 95 and 98. I use XP from time to time.

I switched to Mac years ago. I was middle-aged and not a geek. I was instantly happy as a clam (Clamshell iBook, actually). This was before OS X.

A Mac isn't hard to learn because it is enjoyable.There's always a new delight in finding a feature that is so much simpler and less infuriating than Windows. Yes, even after a decade, I find myself doing things the Windows (more difficult) way. But there is no more fighting with the computer. No maintenance on the OS, inscrutable error messages, no locking up crashing. Simply put, the reduced pain and frustration is worth every penny. A Mac is worth the price because people are willing to pay. If another company offered such ease of use, fun and great support at a lower price, I might go with them. Purchase price is not the whole story.

I do use XP when necessary. It's pretty awful. Maybe Windows 7 will be comparable or even better than OS X. But remember, that's what they said about Vista.

Reply Score: 2

Depends on your goals...
by goffster on Mon 25th May 2009 23:11 UTC
goffster
Member since:
2007-11-24

Want to play games? Mac not for you.
Rest of company is not Mac? Mac not for you.
Want to be productive? Mac for you.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Depends on your goals...
by dragossh on Tue 26th May 2009 13:06 UTC in reply to "Depends on your goals..."
dragossh Member since:
2008-12-16

You can install Windows on a Mac.
You can virtualize Windows on a Mac.
You may be more productive on OS X than you ever were in Windows.

Anything else you feel the need to say?

Reply Score: 1

Comment by dizzey
by dizzey on Mon 25th May 2009 23:18 UTC
dizzey
Member since:
2005-10-15

If you can live with ubuntu for a month you can live with osx for the rest of your life.

sure osx will recuire some change. but most applications ported to linux are also ported to osx. osx gets some more ports than linux ms office photoshop etc... but not that mutch more. if you managed to live a month on ubuntu you will have no trouble with osx, if you dont manage to use ubuntu in a month i think you will have trouble on osx to.

so my advice is try ubuntu if you managed get a macbook if you dont well then windows is probly your game

Reply Score: 2

Comment by stabbyjones
by stabbyjones on Mon 25th May 2009 23:29 UTC
stabbyjones
Member since:
2008-04-15

I use all three majors at work (windows/debian/osx) and debian at home. As far as i'm concerned you won't get anything MORE out of a mac than you would from windows/linux.

From what you've said you've at least dabbled in other operating systems but if you've never used OSX before the things that will annoy you right up will probably be:

Finder
The Universal Menu bar
Button positioning
The dock

At least those were the things that annoyed me when i first started using Macs and in some cases still do.

Finally as a student i wouldn't be able to justify the costs you need money for beer ;)

Reply Score: 4

Try before you buy
by Bringbackanonposting on Mon 25th May 2009 23:36 UTC
Bringbackanonposting
Member since:
2005-11-16

We can talk all we like but everyone is different and has different experiences with computer technology. It makes sense for anyone interested in "change" to try before committing to anything. I personally tried OSX twice the "hackintosh" way coming from a Linux mainstay. I used it for a week each time and failed twice. If I came from a Windows box, the results may have been different. I am too set in my "flexible" ways. OSX is too restrictive/rigid for me now. All this talk of speed and stability on OSX .... suuuuure, compared to what? ;)

Reply Score: 3

v Currency conversion
by Baeowulf on Mon 25th May 2009 23:39 UTC
RE: Currency conversion
by Bobthearch on Tue 26th May 2009 01:02 UTC in reply to "Currency conversion"
Bobthearch Member since:
2006-01-27

It's my understanding that people in Hungary earn significantly ~less~ than people in America, comparing salaries for various jobs in US dollars.

http://www.worldsalaries.org/hungary.shtml

For example, (US dollars, monthly net pay, 2005 data) a miner in Hungary earns $516 and a miner in the USA earns $2694.

So if you're suggesting that Apple charges according to what people earn, Mac computers should cost less in Hungary than in the US.

I understand perfectly well why a Mac in Hungary isn't priced less than in the USA. But charging a premium that's the equivalent of a month's salary is ridiculous.

Reply Score: 7

RE: Currency conversion
by miscz on Tue 26th May 2009 06:40 UTC in reply to "Currency conversion"
miscz Member since:
2005-07-17

It's the opposite. Look how much does an Apple PC cost in Eastern Europe or South America - it's insane. You're better off importing one from the US or Western Europe. You live in some fantasy world.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Currency conversion
by kaiwai on Tue 26th May 2009 10:11 UTC in reply to "RE: Currency conversion"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

It's the opposite. Look how much does an Apple PC cost in Eastern Europe or South America - it's insane. You're better off importing one from the US or Western Europe. You live in some fantasy world.


I suggest you look at the ridiculous level of taxes on products imported; I'm in New Zealand and there is a gap between the US and NZ prices which can be accounted because of currency fluctuations and GST. When in Europe you have tax rates amount to extortion - 17.5% VAT, property taxes, income taxes, regulations, an incredibly niche language then all this drives up cost.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Currency conversion
by righard on Tue 26th May 2009 11:37 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Currency conversion"
righard Member since:
2007-12-26

Still the difference in price between a PC bought in the US, and one Europe is much smaller then an Apple bought in the US v Europe.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Currency conversion
by kaiwai on Tue 26th May 2009 13:47 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Currency conversion"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

Still the difference in price between a PC bought in the US, and one Europe is much smaller then an Apple bought in the US v Europe.


Again, Apple doesn't distribute them - a local company does; there are factors way outside their control and in a lot of cases it is your local laws that prohibit parallel importing of products which also drive up costs - especially when the given product is a niche product in your country and thus there aren't the economies of scale to reduce the cost of importing, supporting and selling it.

New Zealand is probably lucky in that Apple consolidates their New Zealand and Australian operations in Australia which give them a market of around 25million people; couple that with the fact that it uses English with the standard keyboard lay out - the cost of doing business is a heck of a lot cheaper.

If Europe had a common language with a common set of taxes, regulations etc. then it would be possible to group all of Europe under the same banner, use a single distributor , support centre, sales website etc for the whole continent, and thus you'd get the savings - since none of those things are going to happen, you're stuck with higher prices.

Edited 2009-05-26 13:55 UTC

Reply Score: 3

Comment by ivanadrive
by ivanadrive on Tue 26th May 2009 00:00 UTC
ivanadrive
Member since:
2009-05-25

Personally I prefer Windows over Mac because I'm used to it. The windows interface seems more intuitive to me, but I'm aware it would be the opposite if a Mac was the first computer I learnt to use.

I did consider buying a mac a year ago, but then I realised the MacBook Pro was not worth the money for me personally. Sure it was better than the dell vostro I bought in many regards (nicer design, lighter, faster longer battery life), but not better enough to justify twice the price (I figure any laptop will last only 2 to 3 years max anyways). And the Dell's screen was nicer than the LED display on the MacBook Pro, so was the graphics card. In the end a Dell with similar specs would be the same price, but I could do with a cheaper option that was simply not available in the Apple product line.

But the most important part is the software I need to run. Adobe software is just not as good on the Mac (at least CS3 wasn't) because adobe gives more priority to the windows version. I also need office and IE, which are not identical on the Mac. I must say I do envy the UNIX-like console in OS X and the superb font rendering.

Both Windows (vista and even more so 7) and Mac OS are mature operating systems that are reliable and user friendly. If you buy a PC from a decent vendor it won't crash and drivers will work and update automatically.

Apple is just as reliable/unreliable and expensive as any A-brand PC (they're all made is the same Chinese factories, using the same components anyway). These days reliability of the OS depends mostly on hardware and drivers.

There are a lot of fanboys on both sides that claim theirs is the best.
There are a lot of false or outdate claims about both systems: Apple is expensive (you get what you pay for), you will need an Anti-virus on both systems (no matter what Apple claims, and personally I only came across about 5 viruses in my 20+ years of computer use, none of them in the last couple of years, and one on a Mac!). Most recent hardware will automatically install on either system.

In the end it all comes down to how much you want to fork out, what you need it for (software, performance). There's no right or wrong, good or bad, just personal preference.

And perhaps in the future I'll get a Mac (too) if it suits my needs.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Comment by ivanadrive
by jokkel on Tue 26th May 2009 07:37 UTC in reply to "Comment by ivanadrive"
jokkel Member since:
2008-07-07

The Dell would not be a lightweigth, silent and have the same battery life. Thesere are the main point were Apple Laptops are top of the line.

Reply Score: 1

Ridiculous prices
by Doca on Tue 26th May 2009 00:13 UTC
Doca
Member since:
2006-01-30

The entry level MB466BZ is BRL 5.500,00. Here is BRL 2,25 = US$ 1.00, so you do the math and you got this:

US$ 2,445.00 for a Unibody MacBook, really entry level.

How insane is that? IIRC, the taxes here are up to 100% for imported computers. Note: there are no taxes for books, afaik.

I got myself one, is the best machine I ever hard, but living in Brazil is killing me through my pocket. Is really, really hard to live when you like technology, make about BRL 21.384,00 (net) a year. And I'm one of the best IT professionals around, MCSE+ level.

Technology aside, an apple (standard quality) here is about BRL 0,45 (cents). I've heard from people that travelled to the US than an apple alone could cost up to US$ 4,00!

How insane is that, too?

Such crazy times that we live on.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Ridiculous prices
by kaiwai on Tue 26th May 2009 10:19 UTC in reply to "Ridiculous prices"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

The entry level MB466BZ is BRL 5.500,00. Here is BRL 2,25 = US$ 1.00, so you do the math and you got this:

US$ 2,445.00 for a Unibody MacBook, really entry level.

How insane is that? IIRC, the taxes here are up to 100% for imported computers. Note: there are no taxes for books, afaik.

I got myself one, is the best machine I ever hard, but living in Brazil is killing me through my pocket. Is really, really hard to live when you like technology, make about BRL 21.384,00 (net) a year. And I'm one of the best IT professionals around, MCSE+ level.

Technology aside, an apple (standard quality) here is about BRL 0,45 (cents). I've heard from people that travelled to the US than an apple alone could cost up to US$ 4,00!

How insane is that, too?

Such crazy times that we live on.


So hang on - where does Apple fit into the equation? your government is robbing you blind and you blame Apple for it. Maybe you should look overseas for employment if your life is being made as difficult as humanly possible.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Ridiculous prices
by Thom_Holwerda on Tue 26th May 2009 10:21 UTC in reply to "RE: Ridiculous prices"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

So hang on - where does Apple fit into the equation? your government is robbing you blind and you blame Apple for it. Maybe you should look overseas for employment if your life is being made as difficult as humanly possible.


Where in his post is he blaming Apple?

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Ridiculous prices
by kaiwai on Tue 26th May 2009 10:31 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Ridiculous prices"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

So hang on - where does Apple fit into the equation? your government is robbing you blind and you blame Apple for it. Maybe you should look overseas for employment if your life is being made as difficult as humanly possible.

Where in his post is he blaming Apple?


Look at his post; his complaining about the price is a jab at the price in which Apples cost in his country and therefore blaming of Apple for it.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Ridiculous prices
by Thom_Holwerda on Tue 26th May 2009 10:36 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Ridiculous prices"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

"So hang on - where does Apple fit into the equation? your government is robbing you blind and you blame Apple for it. Maybe you should look overseas for employment if your life is being made as difficult as humanly possible.

Where in his post is he blaming Apple?


Look at his post; his complaining about the price is a jab at the price in which Apples cost in his country and therefore blaming of Apple for it.
"

Huh? He's just explaining why Apple products are so expensive in Brazil, points to the *right* culprits, without ever once blaming Apple for anything.

You just read something that wasn't there, I'm afraid.

Reply Score: 1

Don't buy just now
by Moulinneuf on Tue 26th May 2009 00:15 UTC
Moulinneuf
Member since:
2005-07-06

Top 5 reason not to buy just now :

1. Snow Leopard out soon.
2. New models on the way. Rumor of netbook.
3. Apple said it would compete on price.
4. WWDC 2009 soon.
5. New CPU and GPU release that save more energy and are more powerful , that should make their way into new Apple releases.

6. The above should drive the price of older model down anyway.

Reply Score: 4

Where to begin
by fx__ on Tue 26th May 2009 00:31 UTC
fx__
Member since:
2006-03-31

I believe in try before you buy. I installed OS X on my main PC about two years ago and actually forced myself to use it for I while. Usually when I install a new OS I just boot into it, tinker with it a little and then boot back to what I'm familiar with, but I really spent some time with OS X and now I'm sitting here and typing this from my Macbook.

The biggest problem with switching is that you need to accept that things are done differently, and this is why most people I know stick with Windows.

I have been using different OS:es all my life, it began with AmigaOS back in 91 and it's still my favourite OS to this day. I know what most of the files in the entire OS are used for and I can customize it to do almost anything I want. When I switched to the PC and started using Windows 98 (I was a late PC adopter, I think it was in 98 or 99 I got my first PC) I never liked the fact that I had no idea what was going on under the hood - so I started using Slackware Linux instead. This was still confusing but at least I felt more in control than I was with Windows. I could understand what was being loaded and in what order when the machine booted. I could customize the Desktop to behave the way I wanted.

But as the years went by I realised that I more and more started using the "stock" settings. I never really liked neither KDE nor Gnome and usually ran XFCE on my machines, which honestly isn't very good either. So when I started using OS X I just though - what the heck, I'm gonna use this the way Apple intended me to use it. I'm not gonna try and adopt it to my liking, I'm gonna adopt to it instead.

I'm trying this mindset with Windows 7 as well but it's not working nearly as well. I just don't like it - people seem to fall madly in love with it but I can't see what the hype is all about.

I still use other OS'es on a regular basis, I boot my 40MHz Amiga 4000 from time to time just to feel how much faster than my current machines it still feels, unless I try to play an MP3 or something which slows it down to a crawl ;) . I use Debian on my server and I don't think I would survive without a Linux-machine in the house. I can very well do without Xorg though. And as mentioned earlier I even have Windows 7 which I am trying to force myself to use from time to time but I just can't see what's special about it. I think the control panel is confusing, the DOS-prompt - even with PowerShell - is horrible, and all the programs I use on Windows are available for OS X and Linux as well.

This turned into a rambling, but my main point would be that you should probably try before buying since Mac's are expensive (even if I myself think it's worth it) and if you decide to change, be open about it or else you're just gonna get pissed about it not doing what you want it to. I also think the OS you decide to use should feel 'fun' to use. It shouldn't be just work, not just a tool, but something you actually enjoy to tinker with.

Reply Score: 2

Keep an open mind
by Shane on Tue 26th May 2009 01:45 UTC
Shane
Member since:
2005-07-06

My advice is to keep an open mind. Most complaints tend to fall in the "Why doesn't it work like Windows?" category.

Reply Score: 1

I almost want one
by HappyGod on Tue 26th May 2009 02:03 UTC
HappyGod
Member since:
2005-10-19

I always wanted a MacBook right up until the guy that sits next to me at work bought one, and I used it for a bit.

The OS is fine, although it takes a bit of getting used to. But it was the keyboard that cemented the MacBook as a no-go for me.

I know it's a small thing, but the lack of home and end keys, as well as the different placing of function keys, meant I was constantly accidentally cutting or pasting text etc.

The are of course Mac shortcuts you can learn.

Reply Score: 2

RE: I almost want one
by Adam S on Tue 26th May 2009 13:09 UTC in reply to "I almost want one"
Adam S Member since:
2005-04-01

Use ANY external USB keyboard. BTW, all Apple aluminum keyboards have those keys too. I used it yesterday.

Reply Score: 1

RE: I almost want one
by aesiamun on Tue 26th May 2009 14:02 UTC in reply to "I almost want one"
aesiamun Member since:
2005-06-29

Command up arrow and Command down arrow are home home and end.
Command left arrow and Command right arrow are start and end of line.
Option up arrow and Option down arrow are page up and down.

The keystrokes are available and don't take very long to get used to.

Reply Score: 2

Consumer Prioritized
by lucere on Tue 26th May 2009 02:51 UTC
lucere
Member since:
2009-03-22

There seems to be a rather significant point missing from this discussion. Mac OS X is unnecessarily brand locked and, though it is physically possible to bypass these locks, it does violate the license. Even if a product has advantageous traits, if that product is not prioritized to the consumer it should not be supported. The most significant anti-consumer trait is that of being unnecessarily proprietary.

In the case of a software product such as Apple's Mac OS X, two important hindrances are caused by this practice. First, software developers who develop for Mac OS X must, if they wish to retain their customer base through hardware upgrades, develop for Mac OS X and at least one additional operating system to accommodate those users who will start with an Apple computer and then upgrade to something like a Panasonic, Itronix, Samsung, Fujitsu, etc. computer. This redundant development increases development cost thus increasing the IT cost of the end user. Second, a user of an Apple brand computer who upgrades to another brand must re purchase all of their commercial apps as there is no legal way to continue using the operating system that was running on their previous computer. This means that the cost to upgrade to another brand of computer is not just the cost of the computer, but is the cost of the computer plus all of their apps. If they have apps by Adobe, Autodesk, etc. this can be rather pricey and, for all of this expense, the user does not receive better software, just the software they already had.

The effect of this, especially in this hard economic time, is incredibly wide spread. All of this redundant development and redundant purchasing retards the progress of the IT industry as the consumer has less funds available to allocated for new products and thus less funds are available for R&D. Unnecessarily proprietary products exist only because consumers enable their existence. It is the consumers who have the power to stop this and, as such, is always advisable to never purchase a product that is unnecessary proprietary.

Moving to the question of what operating system to use is a bit more detailed. First, surprisingly you never want to start with the operating system. Start with what hardware you would like to use. Personally, I always prioritize to reliability: if a computer doesn't work it doesn't matter what software is installed. I have used Panasonic since 2000 and have been more than ecstatic: customer service is great, warranties are three years, and systems are physically durable and easy to repair. They are the most costly (up-front) computers available but you can easily have them indefinitely. Other reliable brands are Samsung, Fujitsu, and Itronix.

Once you have chosen the computer, list all of the activities for which you would like to use the computer (eg: word processing, web browsing, SIP, video conferencing, etc.). Now list the operating systems (not including ones that unnecessarily brand locked) for which applications are created that enable you to perform those activities, and simply choose the best OS. Typically today that will be GNU/Linux. If you get a Panasonic it will be easy to through Ubuntu on as everything will work automatically (including the wireless thanks to the included Intel wireless card instead of a stupid Broadcom card) and the total install is quick and easy.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Consumer Prioritized
by Shane on Tue 26th May 2009 04:02 UTC in reply to "Consumer Prioritized"
Shane Member since:
2005-07-06

First, surprisingly you never want to start with the operating system. Start with what hardware you would like to use. Personally, I always prioritize to reliability: if a computer doesn't work it doesn't matter what software is installed. I have used Panasonic since 2000 and have been more than ecstatic: customer service is great, warranties are three years, and systems are physically durable and easy to repair. They are the most costly (up-front) computers available but you can easily have them indefinitely. Other reliable brands are Samsung, Fujitsu, and Itronix.


I disagree. Hardware by itself is not useful, plus there are a lot to choose from. Software is what makes a computer tick, and this is where I start. If I want to run a LAMP server, I need make sure that the hardware will be compatible with Linux. If I want to use TextMate, I need OS X. If I want to play Crysis, I need Windows.

Start with what you want to do, figure out what software will allow you to do that, find out the OSes that the software will run on, and then you look at the hardware options.

Reply Score: 2

v Don't do it!!!
by Femacamper on Tue 26th May 2009 02:55 UTC
There are many factors
by hraq on Tue 26th May 2009 03:10 UTC
hraq
Member since:
2005-07-06

That might be important for you to consider before switching the platforms.

Macs in general are the best computers you can buy. Yes,they come with disadvantages but overall it is much better to deal with them than to deal with a PC.

The factors that might be important to consider are:

1. Money
2. Applications you must run
3. Willing to learn

A. Money: You would need more money to buy a mac hardware than you would for a PC; this is only true if you didn't hit the high end level computers where apple tend to be a lot cheaper; also consider the warranty on hardware because mac parts are very rare and very expensive. Also consider Accidental damage warranty on any portable mac with >2000$ Price tag; also consider paying more for mac applications if you are a switcher because windows versions will not work on macs natively.

B. If your manager wants you to run specific applications with no mac version then you have 2 choices: run it inside vmware or parallels as one choice or run it natively on Bootcamp as the 2nd choice. You will be under the mercy of a layer that adds to failure points in your system.

C. Willing to learn is also important, but always remember to get your help not from your average friends and then blame the platform for being restrictive and difficult, but you have to consult a highly trained or even certified guy to help you achieve what you want. Yes you have to spend some money for learning. You can spend 80$/hour with a certified guy who will answer probably 30 of your questions that your genius friends could not answer.
prepare these questions on a paper to save time!

Reply Score: 2

Its basically about Apple
by alcibiades on Tue 26th May 2009 03:24 UTC
alcibiades
Member since:
2005-10-12

Apple is a cult, and it specializes in the cult marketing of consumer products. It has practised this more successfully than any company in history.

Its not a rational question of which OS and computer to buy. There is no objective reason to buy a Mac, you're just buying overpriced and underfeatured mediocre commodity hardware, out of a limited range with no decent mid priced entries, and with an average quality BSD derivative on it.

Its not about the product. Its a question of whether you want to join this particular cult.

I dislike cults, and dislike this one as much as most. But there are people who like the feeling of belonging to one, and who willingly parrot the party line and make themselves believe 10 impossible things before breakfast, and feel real good doing it.

Your questioner lives in Eastern Europe. If he feels nostalgic for the former Soviet Union and its approach to education and public debate and information, yes, he should buy a Mac. He will feel right at home. In no time at all he will have picked up the Party line and will know the catechism by heart.

Otherwise, if he was pleased and has remained pleased by the fall of the Wall, no. Buy a decent white box Intel, and put whatever OS you want on it. And stay free.

Reply Score: 7

RE: Its basically about Apple
by kaiwai on Tue 26th May 2009 10:27 UTC in reply to "Its basically about Apple"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

Apple is a cult, and it specializes in the cult marketing of consumer products. It has practised this more successfully than any company in history.


To which you lose the argument. Attend any Microsoft development expo and it has the toxic fusion of Pentecostal evangelism coupled with glassy eyed zombies chanting in excitement to every 'promise' Microsoft claims it'll deliver. Attend any opensource development get together and it is like going to the 'Workers Party' conference filled with Stallmans claiming that they'll herald in a 'new world order'.

I find it funny that you stake you claim as to be an 'individual' that is 'unsullied' by the low brow aspects of collectivism and yet you create your own little collective to which you implicit refer to as 'us' as appose to 'them' - them being the 'stupid Apple users' which you allude to in your post.

Edited 2009-05-26 10:27 UTC

Reply Score: 3

Macs are popular with Microsoft employees
by byundt on Tue 26th May 2009 03:36 UTC
byundt
Member since:
2009-05-26

I visited the Microsoft campus earlier this year and was quite surprised by the number of Apple computers I saw. Even though I am sure they all ran Windows, the build quality and appearance of the Apple laptops apparently made them a popular choice for Microsoft employees. The MacBook Pro was the one I noticed the most.

I sm now on my third laptop. I take it back and forth to work, and put a lot of hours on it. The first two were Windows boxes bought at a mass retailer. I wore the letters off the key caps in about a year, and literally wore a hole through the one of the keys just before it died about six months after the warrantee ended. The third one is a MacBook Pro. Yes, it was more expensive--but the difference in build quality is obvious. I'm expecting it to last much longer, and I'll enjoy every day I use it.

To illustrate the enjoyment part, the features on the MacBook Pro don't get in my way like they often did on the Windows boxes. I hated the way the trackpad worked on the first two laptops (moving the cursor when I wasn't expecting it)--and therefore turned it off and used a mouse instead. In contrast, I have yet to connect a mouse to my MacBook Pro--the trackpad is that good. The screen quality is also much better--brighter, no reflections from overhead lights, and more pixels than on the Windows boxes. The MacBook Pro keyboard stays clean and doesn't accumulate crumbs like my old computers.

While there may be Windows boxes with comparable build quality, none of them are for sale at the computer stores and mass retailers in my medium size city. My decision was therefore quite simple--since I hated the short life and low quality user interface of the first two Windows boxes, the rational decision was to buy a Mac.

Reply Score: 3

Coke or Pepsi
by richmassena on Tue 26th May 2009 03:37 UTC
richmassena
Member since:
2006-11-26

I've used a PC running Windows for years now, and with the exception of Vista, the experience has just gotten better. Since OSX has been available and Apple has switched to the Intel platform, there isn't all that much difference in the capabilities of each platform. The details are different. The look, feel and polish differ.

But once you know how to use a computer, it matters not one bit which you use because a computer is a computer, provided the software you need to use is available. I can think of no other factor that would keep me from enjoying the use of Windows, OSX, any Linux distro, or a BSD provided I can customize it to my ends.

Reply Score: 3

Yes and No
by lihong on Tue 26th May 2009 04:44 UTC
lihong
Member since:
2007-03-23

Should I Switch to Mac? My answer is:
For hardware: Yes, sure! It got style!
For software: No, It's still not FOSS.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Yes and No
by jokkel on Tue 26th May 2009 07:40 UTC in reply to "Yes and No"
jokkel Member since:
2008-07-07

Not all is. But the list is pretty long:
http://www.opensource.apple.com/release/mac-os-x-1057/

Reply Score: 2

RE: Yes and No
by aesiamun on Tue 26th May 2009 14:04 UTC in reply to "Yes and No"
aesiamun Member since:
2005-06-29

While it's your choice to not use anything but Free and Open Source Software, if you tell someone else not to use it because it's not Free, then you're doing them an injustice.

Don't evangelize, it doesn't help anyone.

Reply Score: 4

Maybe a second-hand mac?
by siraf72 on Tue 26th May 2009 05:08 UTC
siraf72
Member since:
2006-02-22

I was going to say "get the mac" as honestly I don't know anyone who's bought any mac since OS 10.1 who didn't become a devout and happy accolyte.

BUT, that price for a unibody Macbook is pretty hefty!!

Perhaps a second hand macbook. Just to put into perspective, I do all my work on a 1.8 Macbook Air and it does eveything I need. So anything faster than that will serve you well.

Reply Score: 1

Hrrm.
by vohaul on Tue 26th May 2009 05:39 UTC
vohaul
Member since:
2009-05-04

I bought a white intel macbook of the classic kind a long while back, though a few revisions in, so I didn't have any hardware failures. The laptop itself was pleasing in most ways - fast and pretty. But OS X just never gelled with me, probably because I'm a long-time windows user.

I had it for 1,5 years and the last 8 months or so I solely used the XP installed through boot camp as OS X had displayed some serious foobars and needed a reinstall, while XP was happily churning away on the other partition.

I've seen a lot of 'windows PCs take time to keep running' and I disagree with that. After the amount of years I've been running windows, I've gotten pretty dang good at keeping my system running without too much effort. If you don't break it, you don't got to fix it, now do ya?

So if you're somewhat intelligent about your PC use, steer away from obvious malware and use the security options windows offers you (limited as they may be), your system may easily be as error-free as any *n*x or OS X system.

The way I usually see it is that windows is an OS that gives you a lot of ways to work - you can set it up whichever way you like, with shell replacements, thousands upon thousands of little tools to change the way it works. This, of course, also gives you thousands upon thousands of little ways to screw up your system.

OS X, to me, feels like a system that forces you to work the Apple way, and if that isn't how you're used to working, or if that's not how you want to work, then you're not going to enjoy the switch.

The suggestion to play around with OS X in a serious manner before making the switch is a good one. For all you know, the Apple way fits your way much more than you thought.

But if you want to simply jump in and continue where you left off, sticking to your most-used OS is always a good choice.

After all, even Windows is getting better every version.

Reply Score: 1

Liking the Ask OSNews column
by annafil on Tue 26th May 2009 06:06 UTC
annafil
Member since:
2009-01-20

It's pretty hard to answer this question and be objective - everyone has a favorite and most of the time people can't quite agree. That's kind of the point - each is useful for something.: I'm at an all mac hardware office and I find I still have to have a copy of Ubuntu and XP around.

I like what the OP said about friends. If you've got a friend using that OS who's willing to hold your hand (I'm that GNU/Linux person for my friends) - you'll be fine with any of the three.

I'm not a huge mac fan because of the price premium. I'm also not crazy with how locked down a lot of things are. But I can admit to a lot of people who have a choice between Mac and Windows only, the premium is worth the time you save on doing things in Windows. Like installing an Anti-virus, defragging the com, finding and reinstalling drivers for all your hardware if ever you need to reinstall your operating system.

There are not hard to do, but uneccessarily time consuming (and yes there are time consuming things about Linux, and probably on Macs as well, that's not really the point).

The questions you should ask yourself are
- how much time can you spend on keeping the computer running? If the answer is as little as possible, maybe you should invest in a Mac system. (a Hackintosh is going to be about as much trouble as a Windows install, so I'm not sure that's really a solution.)
- can you live with not being able to play all the latest games, and have a smaller selection of software (albeit usually of a slightly higher quality)? if no, get a regular PC.

The Hungarian price for Macs is fairly ridiculous, I've got to admit. If you commit to a Mac, make it worth your while by having it serve you as long as possible: make sure you get an extended warranty - it costs even more, but then you have a secure investment in your hardware for the next three years and you aren't likely to need to upgrade the hardware to have things running fairly smoothly.

Good luck!

Reply Score: 1

Yes
by strcpy on Tue 26th May 2009 06:59 UTC
strcpy
Member since:
2009-05-20

Yes, why not?

More diversity is always good. After all, that must be the reason why this is OSnews, and not Linux news, Windows news nor Apple news.

Edited 2009-05-26 07:01 UTC

Reply Score: 2

Macbooks are really nice.
by Ravyne on Tue 26th May 2009 07:05 UTC
Ravyne
Member since:
2006-01-08

I recently bought a macbook -- I wanted to get into iPhone app development, and I also needed a laptop: two birds with one stone.

I'm dual-booting OSX and Windows XP Pro -- Windows seems to be a little flakey, I occasionally get a random bluescreen but it could be something wrong I did installing drivers or something.

OSX is fine for the things I've used it for. One nicety I've found with OSX is the ability to burn ISO images without any additional software, and you can also mount disc images as virtual drives.


Hardware-wise, the guts of the machine aren't extravagent and you can find the same in a PC-laptop for cheaper, however, finding a PC-laptop which has the same guts, for cheaper, and with similar build quality is a long shot. Aside from looking good, the thing just feels solid and well built. Battery life is about 4-5 hours on a full charge, which isn't at all shabby.

The biggest thing I like about my macbook is the trackpad... let me be clear, usually, I f--king hate the kind of trackpads you find on PC laptops. They're almost universally small, rough, useless things with frail buttons. The macbook trackpad is great for a few reasons: First, its huge, probably about 4.5 inches on the diagonal. Second, its glassy-smooth with no weird resistance. Third, there's no buttons at all, you click by depressing the bottom half of the trackpad, and it responds with a satisfying click. Fourth, it supports a full range of gestures to replace all those annoying "special function areas" (such as scroll bars) on typical PC-laptops -- zoom in/out, scroll left/right/up/down, and right-click are all supported through simple, intuitive gestures -- under OSX and windows. Even though I still prefer a mouse for long sessions (when I have the space) I find myself not hating, even enjoying, the macbook trackpad -- something I haven't said about any other trackpad ever. This feature alone justifies a couple hundred dollars of the purchase price for me.

Reply Score: 1

sales tax
by puenktchen on Tue 26th May 2009 07:17 UTC
puenktchen
Member since:
2007-07-27

you can't compare the price of a macbook in the us which doesn't include the sales tax with the price in hungary including the rather high sales tax. without it, it's 306.167 Ft. = 1533 $. still 234 $ more as in the usa, but not as as ridiculous as the article implies - about the same as in other european countries. btw, the cheapest macs in europe are sold in switzerland, as their sales tax is far lower than everywhere else.

on topic: do it. trust me. get an old one if you have to.

Reply Score: 2

RE: sales tax
by David on Tue 26th May 2009 14:38 UTC in reply to "sales tax"
David Member since:
1997-10-01

That is a very good point. After I wrote the article I thought that I should take the VAT into consideration, but then was overcome by a combination of forgetfulness and laziness, so thanks for your input.

Reply Score: 1

Comment by jokkel
by jokkel on Tue 26th May 2009 07:46 UTC
jokkel
Member since:
2008-07-07

"But, I always wanted to try OSX. I just sometimes think that I wouldn't have problems with OSX, it will be always stable, fast, reliable system."

You will be diappointed. It is a very good system. But you will experience slowness, instability and random errors at some point.
Concerning speed: Mac OS is pretty slow in launching applications. Firefox takes at least double the time to launch as on Windows.

But since you like UNIX-like systems. Mac OS X is worth a try.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Comment by jokkel
by Baeowulf on Tue 26th May 2009 17:57 UTC in reply to "Comment by jokkel"
Baeowulf Member since:
2009-05-25

Firefox is NOT a good measure of performance on a Mac. The Firefox port for the Mac is crap. Photoshop actually loads quicker on my Mac than Firefox does, so, yeah, I guess if Firefox is your only metric then the Mac is slow, but for people who use other software it will work just fine.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Comment by jokkel
by Windows Sucks on Tue 26th May 2009 19:07 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by jokkel"
Windows Sucks Member since:
2005-11-10

Firefox is NOT a good measure of performance on a Mac. The Firefox port for the Mac is crap. Photoshop actually loads quicker on my Mac than Firefox does, so, yeah, I guess if Firefox is your only metric then the Mac is slow, but for people who use other software it will work just fine.


Using Firefox Minefield for Intel Mac is much better then using the standard Firefox.

Reply Score: 2

My two cents
by Dasher42 on Tue 26th May 2009 07:50 UTC
Dasher42
Member since:
2007-04-05

I have been through the VIC-20, DOS, the Amiga, OS/2, Windows, and Linux, and about four years ago I bought an iBook G4 cheap. It converted me.

My desktop runs Ubuntu, but the MacBook Pro I bought nearly three years ago has been my primary work and home machine. The AppleCare has taken great care of me. I've had a hard drive and battery replaced, and they remarked that my keyboard looked more worn than any other laptop they've seen, and replaced it without question.

The other thing is that sleep mode works more consistently on this laptop than on any other device. That makes it truly useful. I rarely reboot this thing.

OSX, it's such a charmer. That's the real deal. You can do good things with Linux, but the attention paid to OSX's UI is just overwhelmingly obvious. It's also highly keyboard-shortcut friendly, more consistently so than most environments. I'm till hoping Gnome and KDE catch up in this department.

If you must go the Linux route for affordability, ideology, or perhaps the wider range of free software, XFCE and Gnome have taken more notes from OSX than KDE. You can approximate the look and feel, and I highly recommend using the XFCE terminal app in any case.

Really, you've got plenty of good Windows alternatives. I just like what's been good to me.

Edited 2009-05-26 07:53 UTC

Reply Score: 2

Think different, but wisely
by chocobanana on Tue 26th May 2009 09:28 UTC
chocobanana
Member since:
2006-01-04

What everybody said about pricing is true. You get what you pay for but it's also stupidly expensive in Europe compared to the US - Make sure your budget allows whatever you decide to buy

What some said about applications is also true. You mention you only need it for basic chores but remember you're young and you probably are going to University - Make sure that you choose the OS that better supports your current and future app needs.

Security is a problem on any OS and Macs or Linux aren't much better than Windows. Windows only has the addition of virus and a larger more attractive user base to exploit - Make sure you follow a security guide to harden the OS of you choice.

Interface is a matter of preference and/or experience and/or ease to learn new things. If you have experience with all those OSs, then it shouldn't be a problem to understand and get used to Mac OS - Make sure you give yourself the time to learn and understand the differences. I'm sure you won't have a problem.

Try before you buy, buy second hand and ask about refund policies. In many countries it is mandatory to provide an 8 day money back, no questions asked refund - These are the best ways to guarantee that your money isn't gonna be wasted (too much, at least)

And remember that Macs give you the chance to install any of the 3 big OS families. If you don't like Mac OS, install Windows or Linux. Heck!, you can even have the three of them.

The two things I don't like on Windows are: pain to maintain (updates, defrag, etc.) and there too many things too look after (notifications, configuration options). Mac OS and Linux, after the initial modest configuration, they're a breeze to live with, just accept updates and off you go.

My personal choice? Mac OS or Linux. I don't which. The problem with Linux is that there are some apps that I need that don't work on it. The problem with the Mac? It's made by one of the most secretive vendors out there.

Right now I'm typing from a 4yr old HP laptop running Ubuntu 9.04. I use it for all sorts of things, including 3D rendering and very occasional gaming. I'm still happy with it. When quad core Apple MacBooks arrive, then I'll buy one. In the meanwhile, because I'm european, I'll be saving money and try to abstain from beer ;)

Oh, and also remember - if you live in Hungary, chances are that a Mac is more attractive for thiefs and thugs than a PC...

Reply Score: 1

No Mac for me
by axilmar on Tue 26th May 2009 10:19 UTC
axilmar
Member since:
2006-03-20

I find the Mac UI irritating:

1) the Dock is useless. Most of the time, I need to hover over icons in order to locate what I am looking for. Icons are non-descriptive.

2) the menu at top is irritating. 99% of the time I look at Windows with a different menu on top. I actually have to click the window of an app in order to use its menu.

3) You can't work with maximized windows on a Mac UI. You need access to the other apps, and since the Dock is so useless, you need to arrange windows in such a way that you can easily bring them to the front.

Perhaps the Mac OS UI is good for you though. Personally, I find it problematic.

Reply Score: 1

First thing a mac user does?
by hartvig on Tue 26th May 2009 10:19 UTC
hartvig
Member since:
2007-04-25

Install Windows.

No seriously, every single Mac owner I know installed some incarnation of Windows as one of their first apps.

That strikes me as very odd and I always wonder what the whole deal about owning a 50% more expensive Mac running windows than owning a Thinkpad for which you are also able to buy for example a docking station (something the Mac laptops have been lacking forever).

Oh and I haven't even begun to discuss the failings of only offering glossy displays... (I know that the most expensive laptop apple offers can also be had with a matte display, but that thing is so hideously expensive its beyond belief).

Oh well.

In my opinion:

If you can live with running only Mac apps and need a mirror, get a Mac laptop.

If you need to run any windows apps as well as being able to see what's actually happening on your laptop, get a Windows laptop.

Reply Score: 1

RE: First thing a mac user does?
by aesiamun on Tue 26th May 2009 14:06 UTC in reply to "First thing a mac user does?"
aesiamun Member since:
2005-06-29

If you need to run any windows apps as well as being able to see what's actually happening on your laptop, get a Windows laptop.


I don't understand this statement. Are you saying windows offers some form of transparency that Mac OS X doesn't?

I would love to see examples of this.

Reply Score: 3

Be Open
by plums on Tue 26th May 2009 10:43 UTC
plums
Member since:
2009-05-26

I hate it when I see anything being judged poorly because it does something differently.

Technology interaction is a little hobby of mine. As such I have thoroughly roadtested many OS's, later inlflicting them upon less savvy users to see how they get on. To sum up my feelings:
Windows: Honestly a good OS when you take into account the developers were wearing skii gloves. The interface can just be so bone headed. All the same it is functional although fragile.
Linux: Fighting the cause but missing the point. Feels like its your own though. Can require some graft.
OSX: Organic. Luxury Hotel with rules. Most them good though.

OS
OSX thinks differently similar to how gmail does things differently and at first very oddly. But pitfalls included overall functions much much more efficiently and more reliably. Genuinly a pleasant place to be. Once used to it you won't have to fight the OS all the time. Vista/7 control panel anyone!

Hardware
As for the hardware of course you can find cheaper laptops. But all laptops are far from created equaly. Putting a BMW engine in an old Skoda may make it fast but it won't make it pleasant. Over in the US, possibly here in the UK too finding a laptop of a similar build (business laptops like thinkpads,elitebooks and latitiudes,) 'full' complete feature set (bluetooth webcam etc) and spec results in similar prices. It's not that they are simply overpriced just that the money goes into other aspects not just the specs. They also have these lovely little features not found elsewhere which may not be obvious benefits but when using day to day its like sitting in a comfortable car that has power steering: Magsafe, Large Multi touch trackpad (truly changes the way you use your computer when utilizing all the gestures,) elegant design, amazing keyboards, comparitivly good lcd's, quiet operation, magnetic latch, slot loading optical, no air vents on the underside, best in class battery life, external battery indicator, better speakers, anologue and digital input and outputs from and only 2 ports.

Personal View
Reliability and some peoples bad experiences. I have had them too. But you cant judge the reliability of millions of laptops on a couple laptops one may have owned. Bear in mind though REV A/MK 1 models are to be avoided.

This may be sounding pro Mac but thats largely because its the focus of this discussion and somewhat because it has become my preference, atleast when making recommendations.

Let me be clear about something. I have no love for Apple only some of their products.

Ultimately the cost appears to be prohibitive in Hungary so unless I had money to burn I'd go with a business grade laptop and shove on Windows 7 or your favourite flavour of Linux. Whatever you do though I would certainly recommend getting your hackintosh on, see for yourself.

Reply Score: 3

Why I wouldn't buy a mac anymore
by julius.malchovitch on Tue 26th May 2009 10:45 UTC
julius.malchovitch
Member since:
2009-05-26

Last January I bought a macbook pro.

That's my first mac and after 5 monts of usage I'd suggest you _not_ to buy one.
The machine itself is built spectacularly, it's an unibody macbook pro.
But I really can't stand OSX (and I am a professional linux user).

What annoys me the most are little annoyances that makes the use of the machine uncomfortable.

I'll list a few of them:
1. Why the hell do I have to select all the images in a folder to browse them with preview? I double click an image and I expect to browse all the other images in a folder using arrows. That's not why windows does that, it's because it's the only intuitive way to do it. I know I can install third party apps to do that, but that's not the point.
2. Why the hell can't I change process priority in activity monitor? This is crazy, I have to renice them from the terminal. And don't say this is a feature because not technical users don't have to renice a process: they don't even know what the hell activity monitor is.
3. Finder. I mean, are we serious? did you really deliver me that piece of C__P as the most important piece of software in the OS?!?

That was for sure my first and my last mac.

Reply Score: 0

And Freedom doesn't count ?
by visconde_de_sabugosa on Tue 26th May 2009 10:46 UTC
visconde_de_sabugosa
Member since:
2005-11-14

And Freedom doesn't count ? Apple's MacOS X is still more restrictive than Windows.

It is artificially restricted to Apple hardware, its kernel is based on Unix but there are many differences from a typical unix in use and programming, you have less choice for computer models and hardware acquisition and you will be always A USER. If you are a student of computer science or related area, you should use a free (as freedom) operating system always when possible.

Reply Score: 0

depends on what he's using it for
by solarcontrol on Tue 26th May 2009 11:53 UTC
solarcontrol
Member since:
2008-11-17

If he is the typical user (email, light office, mp3s, surfing) then Linux is best - and for those purposes, switching to it from Windows is nothing.

If he is a gamer, then Windows by far.
Linux and Mac both suck for gaming - period.

If he is just trying to be "cool" and have an overpriced, overrated status symbol (like german car drivers in the US), then by all means he should throw his money into a mac.

Edited 2009-05-26 12:04 UTC

Reply Score: 1

Used to have one
by h3rman on Tue 26th May 2009 12:39 UTC
h3rman
Member since:
2006-08-09

I used to have an iBook G4.
I did like it a lot, until the non-free/openness of it started to nag me. It didn't run Linux that well. Sold it, no regrets.
Now I use only GNU/Linux on nicely supported hardware, without proprietary drivers. A second hand IBM Thinkpad is my main machine. I run Debian Stable on it, a nonsense-free system. Everything works the way it should. Gnome offers just as much consistency IMHO as the OS X interface.
Don't run Linux on crappy (read: with missing open drivers) hardware.
If you really have to ask other people if you should get an Apple PC, you probably don't really want one.

Reply Score: 2

Try a Mac Mini
by jerrymitchell on Tue 26th May 2009 13:10 UTC
jerrymitchell
Member since:
2009-05-26

I have used a Mac since 1991, and I've never turned back. I am a reporter and writer. What I love about the Mac are not the obvious advantages (almost no viruses, doesn't crash much anymore, etc.), but the less obvious one, which is this: It is amazingly intuitive. In all the years I've owned a Mac, I've never opened a manual.

Reply Score: 2

Stick to what you know?
by steogede2 on Tue 26th May 2009 13:24 UTC
steogede2
Member since:
2007-08-17

"Stick to what you know, or have friends who know..." is a fairly compelling argument for many users. However this isn't really relevant to this guy, IMHO, as he states:

"Several times I have used Unix/Linux OSes like FreeBSD, Debian, Ubuntu (and windows too)"

I'm sure he would have no major problems getting to grips with OS X. The big question is whether he will actual like using OS X and whether it is worth paying a premium for (in his opinion). Perhaps he would do best buying a second hand Macbook and then he can resell it without losing too much money.

Reply Score: 2

Hungarian Apple users
by szabolcsban on Tue 26th May 2009 15:34 UTC
szabolcsban
Member since:
2009-05-26

Dear student,

I live in Hungary, I am a Mac user, I used a lot of UNIX machines.
Please note that there are Mac users in Hungary. Also there are Apple Premium Reseller companies where you can try the Macs out.

Creating a hackintosh is not so hard if you are familiar with unices and you have some ideas where to start, but it's just "like" a mac, it will not behave exactly like the Mac. Also IMHO it's a shame publicly encourage somebody to create one.

About prices: here the wages are extremely small, prices are as high as everywhere else.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Hungarian Apple users
by zsoltt on Wed 27th May 2009 03:02 UTC in reply to "Hungarian Apple users"
zsoltt Member since:
2009-05-27

I am a hungarian user, too. I can say that I started with a hackintosh, and I used it for 2-3 months. It showcased all the features, but it was far from being usable without constant annoyance. You can think of it like a demo version. Hadn't I buyed a real mac, I would have switched back to win/linux in the long term.
I strongly advise to try with a real mac. I will not guarantee that it will be a lifelong-friendship, but surely it will be quite an adventure! By using it for years you can decide on your own what to do next in the unevitable situation your mac gets old (although it should be a very long time).

You can browse beszeljukmac.com and appleblog.blog.hu for mac related information and community.

Reply Score: 1

A political consideration
by pimpernel on Tue 26th May 2009 22:42 UTC
pimpernel
Member since:
2009-04-25

I used Macs until Apple forced iPhone users to use the AT&T network - AT&T was sued by the Electronic Frontier Foundation for supplying the fascist U.S. National Security Agency with all their user data for the purposes of spying on U.S. citizens - without even the assurance that it was legal to do so, which it was not.

http://www.eff.org/issues/nsa-spying

(And, by the way, the Obama administration is no better.)

http://www.eff.org/press/archives/2009/04/05

It turns out that KDE on almost any Linux or *BSD is better than OS X - there are no "blocked" preferences or contradictions to or hobbling of the underlying Un*x foundation, or a ridiculous GUI that can't be changed.

I consider Windows too insecure, but if you're familiar with it you can probably lock it down, so I would advise 1) stick with Windows or 2) go KDE/Linux/*BSD.

Reply Score: 1

RE: A political consideration
by krreagan on Wed 27th May 2009 17:32 UTC in reply to "A political consideration"
krreagan Member since:
2008-04-08

I used Macs until Apple forced iPhone users to use the AT&T network - AT&T was sued by the Electronic Frontier Foundation for supplying the fascist U.S. National Security Agency with all their user data for the purposes of spying on U.S. citizens - without even the assurance that it was legal to do so, which it was not.

http://www.eff.org/issues/nsa-spying

(And, by the way, the Obama administration is no better.)

http://www.eff.org/press/archives/2009/04/05

It turns out that KDE on almost any Linux or *BSD is better than OS X - there are no "blocked" preferences or contradictions to or hobbling of the underlying Un*x foundation, or a ridiculous GUI that can't be changed.

I consider Windows too insecure, but if you're familiar with it you can probably lock it down, so I would advise 1) stick with Windows or 2) go KDE/Linux/*BSD.

Someone needs to get out in the sun a little more.

If you don't want to give AT&T your business then don't! I won't either. No one if FORCING you to do anything!

[soapbox]
Linux is just as constrained (perhaps even more) as OSX with the GPL ball and chain around it's neck. BSD, Now there's a license I can live with... oh ya, I do because I use OSX at home ;)
Infinite customization does not make a GUI better, just more of a cluster-frack! The latest KDE (4.x) is unusable! I used KDE 3.X for years at work with little issues, very productive! Then when 4.0 was put into PC-BSD I dropped them both and went back to windows so I could get some work done. What a complete mess!


The open source community is almost totally clueless on how to make an interactive application that people can work with and be productive. When they do get something usable, someone else comes along and makes it "better" and totally fracks it up!

What ever happened to "if it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
[/soapbox]

Reply Score: 1

Hackintosh - cheap and O.K.
by somnolik on Wed 27th May 2009 15:03 UTC
somnolik
Member since:
2009-05-27

In regard to this part of the question:
I just want to know your opinion about the operating systems. I'll use it for internet, movie playing, music, e-mail, etc. Maybe sometimes edit a music or a movie.


After over a decade of experience with both DOS/Windows and Linux, and more recently about a year's worth of experience with leopard, I came to the conclusion that Mac OS X seems to be a good combination of windows' usability and the robustness of a BSD-based system.

What I really like about Leopard so far:

- Familiarity. If you've got linux-experience on a terminal-level, you're at home. After all, it's bash on a POSIX-compliant system. Yay. Plus, there's a lot of useful command-line-tools. Just about, whatis or man your way through.

- Keyboard friendliness. You can easily remap the keyboard shortcuts for most programs in the system preferences. And: Some of the standard emacs-shortcuts work in about every program and system dialog. Go ahead! Ctrl-A-K the crap out of every line of text that dares to cross your path!

- Some built-in servers. Under System Preferences - Sharing you'll find servers for vnc, ssh, ftp, http and some more.

- Many open-source solutions available. I use:
-- Internet: Firefox and Plainview (for browsing fullscreen)
-- Movie Playing: MPlayer OSX Extended - it performs better than vlc and plays about everything
-- Music: Didn't find a perfect solution yet. Vox is nice, Songbird too.
-- EMail: Thunderbird
-- Simple Audio editing: Audacity
-- Simple Video editing: Avidemux
-- There's a nice overview of more software at http://www.opensourcemac.org


I personally use one of those ubiquitous Asus EEEPCs, 1000H, dual-boot OS X and a very affordable student version of XP, so the whole setup was quite cheap: 400€ (back then) for the netbook, 10€ for XP and about 100€ for os x, that comes to a total of 510€.

Due to the very weak Intel Atom CPU in the eeepc, I cannot do more complex audio or video editing, en-/recoding. Sometimes flash video gets choppy, and i definitely can't watch hd video. But that should be no problem if you go for a core2 cpu and a mac supported nvidia chip.

All in all I have to go along with David Adams - get a Hackintosh if you've either got the time to search the forums (for example on infinitemac.com ) for a 100% supported notebook, or skills and time to fix a less supported model.

If that doesn't apply to you, I'd just go for a Win or Linux machine, because in my opinion, 100 bucks are a reasonable sum to pay for a very good operating system, but the advantages of os x don't weigh up the extreme price of genuine apple hardware.

Either way: Have fun with your new Hardware ;)

Edited 2009-05-27 15:08 UTC

Reply Score: 1