Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 8th Jun 2009 18:02 UTC
Apple At the WWDC today, Apple has lifted the veil on a number of features of its upcoming operating system, Snow Leopard. Most of the work on Snow Leopard has gone into under-the-hood technologies and optimisations, but there are also a number of interface tweaks. The company also updated some of its laptops, while also lowering their prices. We got all the news from MacRumorsLive.com.
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nathbeadle Member since:
2006-08-08

I bet most people would pay MORE than $30 for a program that can handle exchange....

THAT ALONE is worth the extra money, having exchange integrated at a system level....

... and now that the $30 is accounted for everything else is just icing thrown on top ;)

Reply Score: 4

rhetoric.sendmemoney Member since:
2006-01-22

I bet most people would pay MORE than $30 for a program that can handle exchange....



Eh, I wouldn't. I am a home user... Apple's target audience.

Reply Score: 1

KAMiKAZOW Member since:
2005-07-06

"I bet most people would pay MORE than $30 for a program that can handle exchange....


Eh, I wouldn't. I am a home user... Apple's target audience.
"
Snow Leopard's new features are mostly targeted towards professional users. So much for "target audience"... Even home users will appriciate increased performance, usability improvements, ect.

OpenCL, Exchange, 64 bits, etc. aren't cucial for home users, but for only $29 you can't complain, considering the next Vista service pack, called Windows 7, will probably cost more.

Reply Score: 2

rhetoric.sendmemoney Member since:
2006-01-22


Snow Leopard's new features are mostly targeted towards professional users. So much for "target audience"... Even home users will appriciate increased performance, usability improvements, ect.


Whoa there killer, are you going to tell me Apple's target audience is NOT the home user? No one is going to agree with you on that with a straight face. "Hi I'm a Mac" was NOT targeting businesses? Where are all the Apple "business" commercials?

The latter are service pack level adjustments. Not $29 changes. See service pack/firefox points above.

(Edit: Fixed punctuation.)

Edited 2009-06-08 19:08 UTC

Reply Score: 0

NathanHill Member since:
2006-10-06


The latter are service pack level adjustments. Not $29 changes. See service pack/firefox points above.


Whoa there. OpenCL as service pack level adjustment? Grand Central? Those are the kinds of things that really are grappling with where computer technology is moving. They aren't just an extra layer or piece of software. They are built in to the core along with 64-bit everything and completely rebuilt Cocoa Finder and other things. That's way bigger than silly bug fixes from a service pack.

The good thing is that Leopard is going to be running along great for PowerPC users and others who may not upgrade for years to come. Contrast that with how Microsoft is trying to put together a winner (Windows 7) after a loser (Vista). Apple is building an even stronger winner (Snow Leopard) based on a proven winner (Leopard). I wonder what would have happened if Microsoft had just developed a stronger XP in the first place.

Reply Score: 1

rhetoric.sendmemoney Member since:
2006-01-22

"
The latter are service pack level adjustments. Not $29 changes. See service pack/firefox points above.


Whoa there. OpenCL as service pack level adjustment? Grand Central? Those are the kinds of things that really are grappling with where computer technology is moving. They aren't just an extra layer or piece of software. They are built in to the core along with 64-bit everything and completely rebuilt Cocoa Finder and other things. That's way bigger than silly bug fixes from a service pack.

The good thing is that Leopard is going to be running along great for PowerPC users and others who may not upgrade for years to come. Contrast that with how Microsoft is trying to put together a winner (Windows 7) after a loser (Vista). Apple is building an even stronger winner (Snow Leopard) based on a proven winner (Leopard). I wonder what would have happened if Microsoft had just developed a stronger XP in the first place.
"

Careful, I was solely using Windows service packs as an example. Lets not get derailed by that wreck. I don't think it is a better solution than OSX at all. Nor is Linux. This is about Apple "not enough profit margin for a reasonably priced notebook" trying to pass a service pack off with a $29 dollar fee. A Microsoft failure has nothing to do with this.

Those changes do not present a value NOW. When the "future" features come out using them they will. RIGHT NOW they do not provide a value added benefit to the home user. Therefore they are not worth $29 to the home user. The speed gains/interface tweaks (which are not very expansive) are service pack level changes... Microsoft upgrades DirectX/Windows Search and many other similar techs in their SPs. This is hardly different.

Reply Score: 0

NathanHill Member since:
2006-10-06


Careful, I was solely using Windows service packs as an example. Lets not get derailed by that wreck. I don't think it is a better solution than OSX at all. Nor is Linux. This is about Apple "not enough profit margin for a reasonably priced notebook" trying to pass a service pack off with a $29 dollar fee. A Microsoft failure has nothing to do with this.

Those changes do not present a value NOW. When the "future" features come out using them they will. RIGHT NOW they do not provide a value added benefit to the home user. Therefore they are not worth $29 to the home user. The speed gains/interface tweaks (which are not very expansive) are service pack level changes... Microsoft upgrades DirectX/Windows Search and many other similar techs in their SPs. This is hardly different.


I think we just disagree then. I see this as huge possible improvements in functionality and end user delight. I am an end user, and I think Snow Leopard looks great, especially because of the little things that it will do better.

Apple has resisted doing 32-bit and 64-bit lines of their OS like most others (Linux and Windows). One could look at Snow Leopard as the introduction of their 64-bit OS with other advancements. So these are not service pack level changes - since when in Windows can you upgrade from 32-bit OS to 64-bit OS with some service packs? You can't do that in Linux either. Your logic is flawed, bro.

Snow Leopard is a whole new mutation of Leopard. I'm really happy with Leopard at home on my Powermac G4, but I am even more excited to purchase a new Mac in September now.

Reply Score: 2

FealDorf Member since:
2008-01-07

You don't get it. End-users don't *care* about these new APIs; and developers need their users to have these API's. It's kinda like a chicken-egg story... Let's see how quickly users will adopt it. If you ask me; it needs a few killer-apps..

Vista was also, in a sense, a developmental upgrade -- it featured hardware-accelerated WPF, DX10, a new audio stack, a new printing system, the list goes on..
BUT it wasn't an incremental upgrade. Instead it was an unoptimized and unfinished OS which is why it failed to get a comparatively sufficient market. It's nowhere a failure like Windows ME (and Vista's still more PCs than mac). That's my take anyway..

>>I wonder what would have happened if Microsoft had just developed a stronger XP in the first place.<<
Everyone's saying Win7 is faster than XP. Why would they? If you ask me; XP is way too refined to get any gain.. Not to mention that Win7 has unanimously positive reception. It doesn't matter if it's a loser followed by a winner; people see it as the next iteration from XP. Secretly, so does MS..

IMO Win7 and Snow Leopard are quite alike -- "commercial service packs". The difference is that you have to pay the premium for one of them.
Win7 is Vista + UI and polish
Snow Leopard is Leopard + APIs and tidbits

I have a Mac-Mini with Leopard; and I'm not opting for the upgrade. Don't get me wrong; I love my Mac but I use windows as well. Arguing that Snow Leopard's worth looking for a technological upgrade would work just as well for Vista SP1..

Reply Score: 1

rhetoric.sendmemoney Member since:
2006-01-22

You don't get it. End-users don't *care* about these new APIs; and developers need their users to have these API's. It's kinda like a chicken-egg story... Let's see how quickly users will adopt it. If you ask me; it needs a few killer-apps..

Vista was also, in a sense, a developmental upgrade -- it featured hardware-accelerated WPF, DX10, a new audio stack, a new printing system, the list goes on..
BUT it wasn't an incremental upgrade. Instead it was an unoptimized and unfinished OS which is why it failed to get a comparatively sufficient market. It's nowhere a failure like Windows ME (and Vista's still more PCs than mac). That's my take anyway..


That's pretty much exactly what I am saying.

Now, if these API's are needed for app development then the home user should not have to pay for them. When will these killer apps come out anyways? Will they be widely user by the next OSX version? When I get a new game in the Windows world, I just upgrade DX for FREE. Why should I have to pay YEARLY to run the latest apps? I would bet a lot of developers won't shove this down peoples throats until AT LEAST the next OSX update.

Forced APIs are not value added by themselves.

Reply Score: 1

bousozoku Member since:
2006-01-23


...
Vista was also, in a sense, a developmental upgrade -- it featured hardware-accelerated WPF, DX10, a new audio stack, a new printing system, the list goes on..
BUT it wasn't an incremental upgrade. Instead it was an unoptimized and unfinished OS which is why it failed to get a comparatively sufficient market. It's nowhere a failure like Windows ME (and Vista's still more PCs than mac). That's my take anyway..
...


Leopard might as well be a developmental upgrade and Snow Leopard the finished product. The upgrade price is higher than it should be but not unexpected, considering that they're charge US$9.99 for an iPod touch upgrade.

I'd certainly be happy to pay US$29.99 for a upgrade that made Leopard work properly. I can't use it and I'll get the free updates but the current Apple is leaving a bitter taste in my mouth.

It's like an owner of a company used to say "Our customers don't want that." meaning that they didn't want to pay for upgrades where they couldn't see changes in functionality. Of course, they way Apple fanatics gush over Exposé, I'm sure plenty will pay for a merging of Exposé and the Dock.

Reply Score: 1

KAMiKAZOW Member since:
2005-07-06

Whoa there killer, are you going to tell me Apple's target audience is NOT the home user?

No. I'm telling you that Snow Leopard's main audience are pro users.
You should learn the difference between Apple as a whole with all its products and just a single Apple product -- in this case Snow Leopard.
Home users can probably live with plain Leopard as well, considering that "home user"-targeted APIs where untouched making Snow Leopard not binary incompatible to Leopard for home user apps.

Reply Score: 2

rhetoric.sendmemoney Member since:
2006-01-22

"Whoa there killer, are you going to tell me Apple's target audience is NOT the home user?

No. I'm telling you that Snow Leopard's main audience are pro users.
You should learn the difference between Apple as a whole with all its products and just a single Apple product -- in this case Snow Leopard.
Home users can probably live with plain Leopard as well, considering that "home user"-targeted APIs where untouched making Snow Leopard not binary incompatible to Leopard for home user apps.
"

Come on, really? Don't jump into an argument over semantics.

Besides, this is not being pushed as a Pro user product... its being pushed as an Apple product. No Apple phone rep is going to tell a home user over the phone not to upgrade because this is "targeted for Pro users." That is just ridiculous. In your estimation, is Apple going to start pushing a Business edition like Windows now? Puh-leeze. Stevie is going to come out on stage in his stupid black shirt and tell everyone the future is now... Snow Leopard.

Reply Score: 1

KAMiKAZOW Member since:
2005-07-06

Besides, this is not being pushed as a Pro user product...

Yes, it is -- at least Apple concentrated on features for pro users. Exchange is for pro users. How many "normal" users have an Exchange server at home? Probably none.
The second big set of features is related to HPC: fully 64 bit kernel, better programming of multiple cores and GPGPU programming.

The remaining new features are mostly tweaks. They are nice to have for home users, but not mandatory. Whoever feels to like those tweaks can pay those 29 bucks -- it's not a fortune.

In your estimation, is Apple going to start pushing a Business edition like Windows now?

No. This particular update is targeted towards pro users, but it's as suitable for normal users as plain Leopard.
New Macs will bundle Snow Leopard, but existing Leopard users are not forced to upgrade, because there are no API changes for home user-related stuff.

Even Apple is pretty open about that. Their own Snow Leopard web site has "Refined, not reinvented." as headline.
It's totally different from their "more than 300 new features" approach from previous Mac OS X releases.

Reply Score: 2

kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

Snow Leopard's new features are mostly targeted towards professional users. So much for "target audience"... Even home users will appriciate increased performance, usability improvements, ect.

OpenCL, Exchange, 64 bits, etc. aren't cucial for home users, but for only $29 you can't complain, considering the next Vista service pack, called Windows 7, will probably cost more.


Minus the Exchange support, I would say all those features are crucial because they allow better applications to be delivered on the said platform. When the operating system vendor provides more technology to the developer, the developer then has the ability to add features to their applications which benefit me; whether Apple directly or indirectly benefits me with the new operating system - I am still getting something out of it. It therefore leaves me confused when I hear people complain about 'lack of features' when all they are focusing on is the user visible wizz-bang effects rather than what the underlying features can bring by way of better applications in the future.

Edit: rhetoric.sendmemoney registered since 2006 and only made 2 posts; can anyone say 'troll account'? This isn't the first time I've seen it on this site; one hit wonders signing up and then suddenly disappearing - trolling a website to get kicks.

Edited 2009-06-09 00:21 UTC

Reply Score: 3

tyrione Member since:
2005-11-21

Don't be retarded. The entire OS has gone 64bit and Cocoa.

Reply Score: 5

NathanHill Member since:
2006-10-06

If it is faster and more useful (edit: rather than just easier to use since Leopard is already darn easy to use), then $29 is more than worth it.

Edited 2009-06-08 19:03 UTC

Reply Score: 1

tyrione Member since:
2005-11-21

Have you ever used Openstep in it's day? I doubt it. The value in the workflow improvements to daily use, not to mention Application upgrades to Cocoa with this new system will be a vast improvement.

Reply Score: 3

rhetoric.sendmemoney Member since:
2006-01-22

Have you ever used Openstep in it's day? I doubt it. The value in the workflow improvements to daily use, not to mention Application upgrades to Cocoa with this new system will be a vast improvement.


VAST improvement? I haven't read a single feature in that list that is a VAST improvement. Me thinks you are using excessive adjectives to inflate your arguments value.

Reply Score: 0

kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

I find it funny that you're whining about upgrading to Snow Leopard considering that Microsoft charges you a lot more if you purchase a PC loaded with 32bit Vista and wish to upgrade to 64bit Vista.

Reply Score: 2

rockwell Member since:
2005-09-13

Way to bring Microsoft into an Apple discussion, despite previous posters.

Plus, for the last year or so, most vendors sell the 64-bit version of Vista outright. Rarely find 32-bit on new boxes.

Reply Score: 2

werpu Member since:
2006-01-18

Way to bring Microsoft into an Apple discussion, despite previous posters.

Plus, for the last year or so, most vendors sell the 64-bit version of Vista outright. Rarely find 32-bit on new boxes.


Funny thing is that Apple is critizized for charging something. Windows Vista compared to Windows 7 is pretty much the same upgrade, almost no improvements except speed for the end user (and some under the hood). It feels like a service pack for me! With a few refinements and removal of a load of annoyances!
Yet Microsoft will charge way more for the upgrade than apple does. I wonder if we will read the same by the same people regarding Windows7 once it is out.

Reply Score: 1

KAMiKAZOW Member since:
2005-07-06

Seriously, those are the "New" features? I don't see how those are even worth $29 bucks. That's less value then the last (free) Windows service pack.

According to http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2009/06/snow-leopard-hitting-shel... the full retail version's price is now down to $29.

Firefox is promoting 3.5's speed gains and its free.

Safari is free as well.

Cutting off a couple gigs of crust is not a feature either.

No? When did MS do sth like that?

If I was an Apple user I would skip this one.

Technically speaking almost everyone is an Apple user, considering that Apple even contributed Mozilla code in the past....

Reply Score: 3

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

According to http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2009/06/snow-leopard-hitting-shel..... the full retail version's price is now down to $29.


Incorrect. This is NOT the full retail version. Apple SPECIFICALLY mentioned that this is the price for OWNERS of Leopard.

The retail price will most likely be the usual 129 USD.

Reply Score: 1

thebluesgnr Member since:
2005-11-14

My copy of Leopard does the same. I bought a MacBook with Tiger the month Leopard came out, so Apple sold me a copy of Leopard for $20 that requires Tiger to be installed to work. This was a pain recently when my HD died and I had to install Tiger just to be able to install Leopard.

I'm sure Snow Leopard will work in a similar way.

Reply Score: 2

KAMiKAZOW Member since:
2005-07-06

ArsTechnica is usually better informed than OSNews (no suprise, actual journalists work there). So when Ars reports that the retail version will be priced $29 and the "upgrade" label is just marketing to lure people into buying the Mac Box Set (Mac OS X + iWork + iLife), I tend to believe that.

Reply Score: 3

suryad Member since:
2005-07-09

I am not discussing which site is better but it looks like in the ars forums, it is being reported that the non-upgrade version of the OS will retail for 129. I dont know who is right at the moment...but either way I do not really care since I am looking forward to Windows 7.

Reply Score: 2

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

ArsTechnica is usually better informed than OSNews (no suprise, actual journalists work there). So when Ars reports that the retail version will be priced $29 and the "upgrade" label is just marketing to lure people into buying the Mac Box Set (Mac OS X + iWork + iLife), I tend to believe that.


Except... Ars does not report that. This is what it says:

"For those looking to upgrade to the latest version of Mac OS X and iLife at the same time, the Mac Box Set with Snow Leopard, iLife '09, and iWork '09 will cost $169, with a Family Pack priced at $229."

Reply Score: 1

Thomas2005 Member since:
2005-11-07

ArsTechnica is usually better informed than OSNews (no suprise, actual journalists work there). So when Ars reports that the retail version will be priced $29 and the "upgrade" label is just marketing to lure people into buying the Mac Box Set (Mac OS X + iWork + iLife), I tend to believe that.

I think it has less to do with luring people into buying the Mac Box Set and more to do with minimizing the number of people that will hold off purchasing a new Mac until Snow Leopard is preinstalled.

Reply Score: 1

KAMiKAZOW Member since:
2005-07-06

"For those looking to upgrade to the latest version of Mac OS X and iLife at the same time, the Mac Box Set with Snow Leopard, iLife '09, and iWork '09 will cost $169, with a Family Pack priced at $229.

Apple is packaging Snow Leopard as an "upgrade" for Leopard users, which explains the $29 price (previous versions of Mac OS X have retailed for $129)."

Reply Score: 2

Adurbe Member since:
2005-07-06

Haven't all Intel macs had leopard?

Wasn't that the point (leopard changing spots?)

As such the previous poster was (is) correct thats its the full retail price.

There is only a $29 upgrade version for all people buying Snow leopard
as PPC users are not supported anyway

Reply Score: 2

Kroc Member since:
2005-11-10

First Intel Macs were in January 2006, Tiger was released April 2005 and Leopard in October 2007.

Reply Score: 1

tumblingtwister Member since:
2009-06-08

Haven't all Intel macs had leopard?

Wasn't that the point (leopard changing spots?)

As such the previous poster was (is) correct thats its the full retail price.

There is only a $29 upgrade version for all people buying Snow leopard
as PPC users are not supported anyway


No, I have a Macbook that's still running Tiger.

Reply Score: 1

camouflageX Member since:
2008-03-07

Umm... no. The Intel Macs came some time before Leopard.

Reply Score: 1

tylerdurden Member since:
2009-03-17

Well... I am sure that you will be one of the first to gush about the new wonderful DX11, and how great of Microsoft to only request a couple hundred bucks for it.

$30 in comparison to access OpenCL, and a full 64-rewrite of Leopard seems an incredible deal.

At least Leopard wasnt borked since day 1, unlike Vista. With windows 7... Microsoft is basically expecting people to pay twice for the "honor" of using what basically is the same operating system. No wonder most large Windows installations decided to skip vista altogether, and they will be moving from XP to 7.

Reply Score: 2

rhetoric.sendmemoney Member since:
2006-01-22

Well... I am sure that you will be one of the first to gush about the new wonderful DX11, and how great of Microsoft to only request a couple hundred bucks for it.

$30 in comparison to access OpenCL, and a full 64-rewrite of Leopard seems an incredible deal.

At least Leopard wasnt borked since day 1, unlike Vista. With windows 7... Microsoft is basically expecting people to pay twice for the "honor" of using what basically is the same operating system. No wonder most large Windows installations decided to skip vista altogether, and they will be moving from XP to 7.


Quit making this about Windows... its not. Lay off the fanboyism and address the points. I said that DX is free, nothing else. Don't get defensive just because you have nothing you can provide to this discussion.

Reply Score: 2

Gryzor Member since:
2005-07-03

I'd like to point that DX is free because Microsoft (when DX was around versions 2 and 3) wanted to push it as "THE" APIs for developing. Given that they had the "biggest" marketshare (Win311/95/98...), they wanted to make sure that DX was available for everyone. It was a marketing decision (and a good one).

If anyone here doesn't see the benefit of Snow Leopard, then they can clearly stay with Leopard and wait until 10.7.x.

I use XP, VISTA, Win7 (Beta and now RC) and OS X (Jaguar, Panther, Tiger, Leopard) and I find Snow Leopard to be a fantastic upgrade. There are *lots* of hours of work put into this upgrade and it will only lead to better applications in the future. End users not wanting to upgrade can happily stay in 10.5 and stop complaining.

Reply Score: 2

rhetoric.sendmemoney Member since:
2006-01-22

I'd like to point that DX is free because Microsoft (when DX was around versions 2 and 3) wanted to push it as "THE" APIs for developing. Given that they had the "biggest" marketshare (Win311/95/98...), they wanted to make sure that DX was available for everyone. It was a marketing decision (and a good one).


++ Thank you for making my point for me. Selling some APIs as an upgrade is ridiculous.


If anyone here doesn't see the benefit of Snow Leopard, then they can clearly stay with Leopard and wait until 10.7.x.

I use XP, VISTA, Win7 (Beta and now RC) and OS X (Jaguar, Panther, Tiger, Leopard) and I find Snow Leopard to be a fantastic upgrade. There are *lots* of hours of work put into this upgrade and it will only lead to better applications in the future. End users not wanting to upgrade can happily stay in 10.5 and stop complaining.


++ Don't blame the Apple user base for complaining... I am not one of them. My point is that you all should be complaining. Apple shouldn't get a "pass" jus because you guys bought into their ridiculous club.

(Edit: Typo)

Edited 2009-06-08 21:46 UTC

Reply Score: 1

Gryzor Member since:
2005-07-03

1) If you see Snow Leopard as an API upgrade only, then you clearly should stay with Leopard and end of thread.

2) I don't belong to any club. I enjoy OSX on top of every other OS I have been faced with, starting with Spectrum ZX back in 1987 (I think) and ending with OS X. In the middle I have worked @ IBM with OS/2 and AIX and lived with every DOS version (not only Microsoft DOS). Windows 3.1, 3.11 and so forth… I don't consider myself part of any club. When I started working with OS X it was already the end of Jaguar and a couple of months before Panther. I, as a computer "profesional" that has dedicated his entire career to this business, found out that OS X was/is the most pleasant OS to work with.

When the x86 version saw the light, it was godsend. Virtualization + OSX was all I needed to keep programming for Windows (work) and doing every other possible task I wanted to do with computers with OS X, which I find more adequate.

If you "hate" OS X or Apple for their "policies", just ignore it. Windows is a disaster in many aspects, I deal with it from a very low level perspective every single day.

Cocoa is far from perfect, but if you happen to know both environments (Windows API or .NET vs Cocoa) you should understand.

OS X may not be perfect (it's not, it's annoying sometimes) but my computer experience is way superior under that OS.

I repeat, if you don't consider OS X 10.6 a good upgrade, simply ignore it. We (or I) don't think I have to complain. Are we "sustaining" OS X by paying every year? Maybe. But I rather do that, than have to download a tar.gz with a driver for my video card that may not work. (Linux experience), or have a Windows Vista "SuperFetch™" stuff keep my hard drive spinning constantly while it struggles to cache the "most used applications". I wouldn't even want to mention trying to program Windows API + MFC or .NET…

Don't get me wrong, I respect .NET and Windows (I work with it) but there are days where I HATE it for what it does or does not!

All in all, I consider Win7 the natural choice for Windows enthusiasts. In fact, I replaced all my Windows XP installs with Windows 7 (Except one for testing software). Only 1 vista remains (for the same reason).

If you think Apple should be releasing these "OpenCL, GrandCentral, etc.) stuff as Free APIS, I think you're confusing the purpose of the APIs in the near future.

I repeat myself: Time will tell. In the meantime, I'll save 29€.

Reply Score: 4

kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

++ Don't blame the Apple user base for complaining... I am not one of them. My point is that you all should be complaining. Apple shouldn't get a "pass" jus because you guys bought into their ridiculous club.

(Edit: Typo)


Mate, you are the one complaining with the original diatribe of the following:

Seriously, those are the "New" features? I don't see how those are even worth $29 bucks. That's less value then the last (free) Windows service pack.

Firefox is promoting 3.5's speed gains and its free. Cutting off a couple gigs of crust is not a feature either.

If I was an Apple user I would skip this one.


Now say it with a straight face that you aren't complaining.

Mac people like me aren't complaining; not because of excessive koolaide but because we actually respect the work that Apple has done; if Microsoft's operating system was of a similar quality then I'd be singing the praises of them as well.

For me, Windows 7 doesn't meet my expectations - and I'm just putting the finishing touches on a review of Window 7 7201 on my Eee PC (going to submit it soon). I want Microsoft to succeed because I know if there is strong competition between the different vendors then it improves my user experience over all. Competition is good and keeps everyone on their toes.

Edited 2009-06-09 01:44 UTC

Reply Score: 3

tylerdurden Member since:
2009-03-17

The only one making this about windows is you, you are the one who compared snow leopard to a windows service pack, you are the one who keeps mapping into a windows-speak.

DX is "free" in the sense that it comes included with the OS. However, there is a tacit costs in the sense that DX10 is associated with Vista, and DX11 will most likely be only for Windows 7. So yeah, it is "free" but you still need to pay Microsoft to play.

If you think things like 64-bit rewrite of major components of the OS, the introduction of grand central + OpenCL to make MIMD/SIMD threading relatively transparent, etc, etc... are "minor" improvements. Either you have little knowledge of computing in general, or you have a weird derange syndrome regarding OSX.

You are yet to provide a cohesive argument (i.e. one which does not involve grossly misinformed assumptions, overly condescending posts diminishing posters that reply to you with actual facts, or simply trolling away) regarding why $30 for an upgrade to Snow Leopard is such a "bad" value... you should reconsider your position.

I will not be holding my breath though...

Edited 2009-06-09 03:20 UTC

Reply Score: 2

prospectofdeath Member since:
2006-03-20

Quit making this about Windows... its not. Lay off the fanboyism and address the points.


Its no surprise that most OSX users have more cats then the crazy lady down the street


Your lack of consistency is revealing.

Reply Score: 2

Smeagol Member since:
2006-01-16

It's called plumbing. You might not get to click-it, resize it, or go "oooo" "aaaa" over some eye-candy, but the plumbing changes here are crucial to making the user experience better and better over time.

$29 is awesome! Can't wait!

Reply Score: 3

Nicely done
by nathbeadle on Mon 8th Jun 2009 18:20 UTC
nathbeadle
Member since:
2006-08-08

I'm sure there will be some nitpicking later on, but overwall I'm happy and encouraged by these changes.

I'm still running a white MacBook from 2 years ago and getting over 4 hours of battery life so having it stuck inside really isn't an issue to me.... I have a feeling this is going to be the complaining of just having USB ports on a computer... eventually everyone will realize it was for the better!

Cheaper Macs can never be a bad thing and $29 upgrade... they stuck it to Microsoft a bit on this one!! I wonder about the response???

Reply Score: 1

RE: Nicely done
by rhetoric.sendmemoney on Mon 8th Jun 2009 18:23 UTC in reply to "Nicely done"
rhetoric.sendmemoney Member since:
2006-01-22

Cheaper Macs can never be a bad thing and $29 upgrade... they stuck it to Microsoft a bit on this one!! I wonder about the response???


The response? Probably a yawn...

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Nicely done
by Gryzor on Mon 8th Jun 2009 21:41 UTC in reply to "RE: Nicely done"
Gryzor Member since:
2005-07-03

"Cheaper Macs can never be a bad thing and $29 upgrade... they stuck it to Microsoft a bit on this one!! I wonder about the response???


The response? Probably a yawn...
"

I think you're mistaken. Microsoft stopped yawning about Apple a long time ago. Else they wouldn't have spent millions in the worst marketing campaign ever…

Microsoft is slowly loosing terrain. Win 7 looks promising, and works as fast as XP on my old HP Tablet PC (1.5Gb ram), but not everyone will be willing to buy "yet another OS".

Time will tell.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Nicely done
by kaiwai on Tue 9th Jun 2009 01:34 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Nicely done"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

I think you're mistaken. Microsoft stopped yawning about Apple a long time ago. Else they wouldn't have spent millions in the worst marketing campaign ever…

Microsoft is slowly loosing terrain. Win 7 looks promising, and works as fast as XP on my old HP Tablet PC (1.5Gb ram), but not everyone will be willing to buy "yet another OS".

Time will tell.


I find it funny that Microsoft was going on about how expensive Mac's are - where is their response to Snow Leopards pricing - where you get the Ultimate version for a rock bottom price. Where as with Mac OS X you get everything you need and more at your finger tips, with Windows you have to pay for more as you need more.

The world is moving to all you can eat pricing and here is Microsoft still stuck back in 1985 with their piece meal operating system sales approach akin to SCO who would sell you a copy of UNIX which was useless out of the box and thus you had to pay for the TCP/IP stack, then web server stack, then the RAID and mirroring stack, the Windows support stack etc. etc.

Oh, and the great thing with Mac - all the components of the Mac work out of the box; I just tried Windows 7 (the leaked 7201 build) and found that there is hardware unsupported on my Eee PC - come on Microsoft, it has been out for almost 6 months with components that are over a year old! if Microsoft want me to upgrade to Windows 7, they better improve their hardware support because so far it is abysmal.

Edited 2009-06-09 01:37 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Nicely done
by Gryzor on Tue 9th Jun 2009 01:42 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Nicely done"
Gryzor Member since:
2005-07-03

Agreed. I had lots of troubles with the Intel Wi-FI driver. Had to end up using an XP version that ran "fine". ;)

But it took me about 5 or 6 restarts and pen-drive "copy-paste" from another box with different drivers.

(Build 7100 tho).

But… this Tablet PC is more than 1.5 years old!

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Nicely done
by kaiwai on Tue 9th Jun 2009 02:00 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Nicely done"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

Agreed. I had lots of troubles with the Intel Wi-FI driver. Had to end up using an XP version that ran "fine". ;)

But it took me about 5 or 6 restarts and pen-drive "copy-paste" from another box with different drivers.

(Build 7100 tho).

But… this Tablet PC is more than 1.5 years old!


True; the wireless in my Eee PC was supported out of the box and was fairly stable, however, I still find the GUI is a giant mess with no consistency between any of the bundled applications; some use menus, others use ribbons whilst others use a different interface altogether. It looks like Linux 10 years ago when there was the horrible mishmash of GTK+, Motif, Qt and numerous other widget kits.

Microsoft need to go away for 3 years, sit down and think about a consist UI from the ground up, fully documented that all divisions of Microsoft embrace. Where the focus on small things are just as important as making sure that the dispatcher is as scalable as it should be. Microsoft has the talent - too bad they lack the management to put the talent to some good use.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Nicely done
by Thomas2005 on Mon 8th Jun 2009 18:26 UTC in reply to "Nicely done"
Thomas2005 Member since:
2005-11-07

I have a feeling this is going to be the complaining of just having USB ports on a computer... eventually everyone will realize it was for the better!

Not only did the MacBook get FireWire back, it is FireWire800 and an SD slot was added. Also, it is now a MacBook Pro.

Reply Score: 1

Awesome.
by NathanHill on Mon 8th Jun 2009 18:58 UTC
NathanHill
Member since:
2006-10-06

Snow Leopard is looking very intriguing: an OS release that is both geared for the tech geeks with all sorts of underlying powerful technologies that push where operating systems are going and the average users with user friendly and performance enhancements to make computer using simpler. Very, very intriguing.

I was going to buy a new Mac Mini next month, but it looks like a 13" Macbook Pro may be my target instead.

Reply Score: 2

Leopard DVD needed?
by nighty5 on Mon 8th Jun 2009 19:19 UTC
nighty5
Member since:
2005-12-18

Given that when I bought my old powerbook, it came with Panther with a Tiger upgrade DVD.

It required Panther to be installed prior to installing Tiger.

It didn't require the Panther DVD handy when upgrading to Tiger.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Leopard DVD needed?
by kaiwai on Tue 9th Jun 2009 01:27 UTC in reply to "Leopard DVD needed?"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

Given that when I bought my old powerbook, it came with Panther with a Tiger upgrade DVD.

It required Panther to be installed prior to installing Tiger.

It didn't require the Panther DVD handy when upgrading to Tiger.


I received the Leopard upgrade form Tiger - but what I found is there is a hack which you create an image, mount it, remove a file in a directory (can't remember which one) then re-burn it to a blank DL DVD. I'm sure they'll have the same sort of 'protection' which one can work around. I find the detection stupid because those who want to work around it will - and those who legitimately want to do a clean upgrade are screwed. Microsoft does the same thing with their upgrade procedure too - thus if you have Windows Vista upgrade you have to install it twice to install it cleanly.

Reply Score: 2

Comment by Envying1
by Envying1 on Mon 8th Jun 2009 20:51 UTC
Envying1
Member since:
2008-04-22

OSNews: Another big thing is of course Grand Central, which will allow developers to tap into the power of the GPU using OpenCL, which is now supported by many, many companies.

Please note, GCD is NOT!!! by powering GPU with OpenCL.
http://www.apple.com/macosx/technology/#grandcentral

Edited 2009-06-08 20:54 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by Envying1
by Thom_Holwerda on Mon 8th Jun 2009 20:59 UTC in reply to "Comment by Envying1"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

OSNews: Another big thing is of course Grand Central, which will allow developers to tap into the power of the GPU using OpenCL, which is now supported by many, many companies.

Please note, GCD is NOT!!! by powering GPU with OpenCL.
http://www.apple.com/macosx/technology/#grandcentral


Gosh I feel like a moron - fixed it!

Reply Score: 1

Upgrade?
by Amaranth on Mon 8th Jun 2009 23:12 UTC
Amaranth
Member since:
2005-06-29

Doesn't Apple claim all box copies of OS X are upgrades?

Reply Score: 2

RE: Upgrade?
by puenktchen on Tue 9th Jun 2009 07:25 UTC in reply to "Upgrade?"
puenktchen Member since:
2007-07-27

Doesn't Apple claim all box copies of OS X are upgrades?


they didn't advertise them as such until now. that would remove most ways to build a legal hackintosh. only osx-licences from dead macs or macs without running osx would become free to use on non macs. no way to build a business model under that circumstances.

Reply Score: 2

Comment by kaiwai
by kaiwai on Tue 9th Jun 2009 02:11 UTC
kaiwai
Member since:
2005-07-06

Downloaded and installed Safari 4, everything is working perfectly, no crashes or problems yet; seems that Apple has really put their foot down when it comes to putting out a stable browser.

Rumour has it that the version shown in the demo is 10A380, so hopefully there would have been some improvements (namely a 64bit driver for GMA 950/x3100 MacBooks).

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by kaiwai
by NathanHill on Tue 9th Jun 2009 03:01 UTC in reply to "Comment by kaiwai"
NathanHill Member since:
2006-10-06

Safari is blazing for me too - this is seriously an amazing piece of software. And I'm running on an old Powermac G4.

Though... I did sort of get used to the tabs on the top, even if they needed a little tweaking.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Comment by kaiwai
by kaiwai on Tue 9th Jun 2009 04:46 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by kaiwai"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

Safari is blazing for me too - this is seriously an amazing piece of software. And I'm running on an old Powermac G4.

Though... I did sort of get used to the tabs on the top, even if they needed a little tweaking.


True, but I guess they went back to the drawing board and realised it is best not to rock the boat given if you do have the tabs at the top it is very easy to tear them off when you don't want to separate them. I had that happen several times with me when I am using Chrome. Don't get be wrong though, the idea of tabs at the top is a nice idea but practicality wise it can cause some problems.

Reply Score: 2

Lauren versus Megan!!!
by mabhatter on Tue 9th Jun 2009 02:30 UTC
mabhatter
Member since:
2005-07-17

We are gearing up for a throw down this fall! Forget PC versus Mac guys, we need Lauren versus Megan to settle this on YouTube.

I really hope Apple will go for the head on approach this time. They really avoided directly comparing Leopard and Vista publicly... they're in a much better place this time.

Reply Score: 2

Worth the upgrade imho
by vikramsharma on Tue 9th Jun 2009 08:38 UTC
vikramsharma
Member since:
2005-07-06

OpenCL, New Finder, Intel Optimized code itself are a few reasons to shell out 30 dollars. Home users too require computing power, playing video, music, doing amateur video and photo editing. Snow Leopards may not have anything new to offer in terms of GUI, snow leopard is going to be snappier and lighter than Leopard. I am having a PowerMac G5 and feel a little left out as this update would make my Mac kinda obsolete. Maybe I would get myself a new Quad Core MacBook pro with OLED screen if ever it's released.

Reply Score: 2

eject on imac
by wanker90210 on Tue 9th Jun 2009 13:57 UTC
wanker90210
Member since:
2007-10-26

I hope they fixed the stupid cd/dvd problem where the media wont eject on an iMac. I have to spend an hour every now and then to make the stupid computer eject (holding down mouse on boot don't help, normally).

I tried to google on...
"how to eject on the worlds most retarded dvd drive"
"eject dvds on a completely retarded imac"
"my stupid imac wont reject"
"i hate apple cd drives"
...but despite the magnitude of hits, very few things seems to work and I can't keep sacrificing goats every time I want to eject media.

(I'm having this problem right now, obviously)

Reply Score: 2

RE: eject on imac
by zkhizo on Tue 9th Jun 2009 18:12 UTC in reply to "eject on imac"
zkhizo Member since:
2009-01-26

Don't count on it :-)) Probably one more of the Steve Jobs fetishes - cd drive without an eject buton. But I still love my macbook...

Reply Score: 1

RE: eject on imac
by bousozoku on Tue 9th Jun 2009 18:36 UTC in reply to "eject on imac"
bousozoku Member since:
2006-01-23

I hope they fixed the stupid cd/dvd problem where the media wont eject on an iMac. I have to spend an hour every now and then to make the stupid computer eject (holding down mouse on boot don't help, normally).
...


Holding F12 or the eject key on the locally attached (no hub) keyboard doesn't work either?

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: eject on imac
by zkhizo on Tue 9th Jun 2009 22:49 UTC in reply to "RE: eject on imac"
zkhizo Member since:
2009-01-26

Didn't work for me even once (at least when I tried to eject unejectable disk, which means one that disappears from the desktop).

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: eject on imac
by wanker90210 on Wed 10th Jun 2009 09:22 UTC in reply to "RE: eject on imac"
wanker90210 Member since:
2007-10-26

Usually not, unfortunately.

Ctrl-eject (sleep) eject
drutil eject
drutil eject internal # etc

Usually doesn't bite either when she's moody.

Pragmatic solution is of course to have an external dvd, which I have.

Reply Score: 1

RE: eject on imac
by fretinator on Tue 9th Jun 2009 18:41 UTC in reply to "eject on imac"
fretinator Member since:
2005-07-06

I think there is an iPhone app for that...

Reply Score: 4

RE: eject on imac
by Putto on Wed 10th Jun 2009 10:50 UTC in reply to "eject on imac"
Putto Member since:
2009-06-10

Or you could use Disk Utility

Reply Score: 1