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I am primarily a Linux dude, but I have also been employed as a Windows developer (VC++, VB Classic, C#, etc). One thing Microsoft has always done well is treat their developer community well. The ISV's are the heart and soul of the Microsoft platform. The only time I remember them mis-treating their developer community was when they axed VB classic. VB.Net is NOT a successor to VB6, it is a totally different platform. They totally dis-respected their VB community.

However, when you decide to do the dance with companies like Apple and Microsoft, you knew who was in control. IMHO, Apple is a MUCH more closed company than Microsoft. I feel like when you buy an Apple product that they are merely "renting" it to you - even the computer itself.

Go Android! Go Moblin!

Ouch!

I had no problem moving on - I was already a Java and Visual C++ developer, so C# and VB.Net are much more preferable languages for me. I was taking about some of the "VB Guys" out there who struggled with OOP ,which wasn't necessary with VB6. Even when I did VB6, I did it in a very Object-oriented way. I had a full framework of classes for each application - I very much prefer an MVC development style.

Sometimes it is ok to feel compassionate towards the struggle of other, even if you do not struggle with it. That's why I am glad that Microsoft is creating Smallbasic:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/devlabs/cc950524.aspx

Visual Basic 6 just sucked. At the time though, there wasn't anything better. C# merged the ease of use of Visual Basic with the completeness of VC++. If you ask me, the real VB killer was the PHP. As web apps rose, PHP offered a similar low barrier to entry, with optional weak objects available.

Do you know what the word "context" means? There is no issue with reusing the same H/W for different purposes. There is however an issue with working on that platform. Witch is essentially the most closed off platform out there. And platform means both hardware AND software.
And RTFA for more evidence that Apple is closed off.
As another piece of evidence, they whined and bitched about supporting Java, and look at how they treat it afterwards... Updates are late, bugs unpatched, versions are unavailable for products that are 3 years old and so on...

Oh yes, how terrible - all two people who use Java are going to be unhappy. Cry me a river. In the time I have owned my Macbook I have never used anything utilising Java - that is how wide spread it is out there for mainstream end users. Yes, there is a security problem and it has been fixed - but it has as much impact as Microsoft deciding to withdrawing support for gopher.

Hmm I dont know about 2 people but a whole lot of Java developers judging from their blogs use Apple machines primarily.

Wow, you must really like rivers of tears. Sounds like some Apple fan woke up on the wrong side of the bed today. [kaiwai] Get over it, Apple is not a utopia.

Edited 2009-06-17 16:40 UTC

That's some argument there--"I have never used x, therefore it has no bearing on mainstream users." And comparing Java to Gopher is just plain insulting. Even if you define "the mainstream user" as someone who has no need for such tools as Eclipse, NetBeans, Visual Paradigm, MATLAB, Maple, or any kind of Java-based web development, surely most Mac users have heard of Azureus (now called Vuze) and LimeWire?

Maybe you should think before you speak?

That's when people talk about developing for "Mac" or "PC" they mean the OSX or Windows operating systems respectively.

Well yes actually you do. The iPhone doesn't belong to whoever buys it, you're merely rent it. It's the same for their OS's as well, you license it off them rather than own it.

It's a known fact these proprietary companies do such things,(Apple in this case) since you give away your rights and freedom agreeing to their licenses.

You’re not giving away anything. No company can take your rights away.

You don’t rent the iPhone, you buy a unit of it. Be it subsidized or not. Likewise, you don’t license the OS, you buy a copy of it and you can do whatever you want with it since it’s your propriety. I can use the OS X DVD to cut cheese or tear the DVD apart if I want.

Don’t be fooled into this “we license it to you” BS that companies want you to believe. You sure don’t license a car or a book, why should it be any different for gadgets or software?

I was thinking of when the Mini came out. There was one version with a combo drive (CDRW/DVD), and one that had a super drive (DVDRW). IIRC, if you bought the combo drive version, there was no Apple-approved upgrade path to the DVDRW superdrive. You had to buy an external if you didn't want to void your warranty.

Again, though, I am talking about a feeling, a perception. To me, it FEELS like Apple still owns all the hardware they sell you. My PERCEPTION (not reality) is that if they wanted they could come to my house and take my computer back for conduct unbecoming a loyal Apple user. I'm sure it was hard for them to "allow" me to put Windows on my Intel Mac. I bet they mulled over voiding your warranty if you put Windows on the computer. At least sane minds won out that time!

The same thing goes for their servers. They have used standard IDE and SATA drives, yet to add a new drive you must purchase an extremely overpriced drive directly from Apple. Why, because you need the cheap $2 plastic drive cage. Through a brokers network I had contact with several resellers who told me they were in the same boat, and had tried in vane to find these silly little cheap Apple drive cages. It became apparent that Apple did everything in their power to see that the drive cages would not enter the parts market. And of course any standard drive would void the warranty.

At the same time with an HP server, I purchased HP drive cages (that actually are not just cheap plastic frames) and was able to use them with OEM drives from various MFRs. The availability of after market parts does play a very significant role for servers. HP understood this, and have gone so far as to help an entire industry that deals specifically with just the parts, not the desktops, servers, etc.. Point is, I know that even with a 10 year old Proliant, I can have a power supply replaced quickly. Same can not be said for Apple.

But this is no different than their own reseller strategies. Wonder why there are so few Apple resellers? Because the limitations, restrictions, and requirements are such to turn away (turn off) most resellers. Besides the Apple store, you have here Microcenter, a large enough storefront that they could either put up with the rules, or have them rewritten. On the other hand, just about any guy on the street can become a Dell reseller, and as for HP after a quick approval process meeting very limited criteria, you are good to go. As a side note, one client back in 2007 was in the business of leasing Apple hardware, and simply let that business end when the contract was up due to their complete disgust at Apple's treatment, again limitations, requirements, and restrictions by Apple that this same company never faced with Sun, Cisco, HP, and IBM.

So the point is, beyond the merits of what OSX is or is not, Apple's policies from supporting resellers to parts suppliers, to leasing agents is in many ways no different than their policies regarding the application development. The net effect is businesses like ours say NO to Apple, to which it runs downstream to clients, partners, and individuals who all equally say NO! But you know what I have learned over the years? Apple just does not give a shit, for they know that if YOU decide not to develop, someone else will eventually come. May take a while, may not be as equally good, but in the end they will have maintained their policies at the cost of developers, resellers, partners, and users.

Rent it? Really?
Why do we, in Europe, buy it unsubsidized and still get treated as people who buy it subsidized(per your definition synonymous to rented)?

Your subsidizing your own phone. In the netherlands the 8gb iphone with cheapest month plan costs 825 euro in two years. That is pretty expensive compared to an 220 euro ipod touch. (same thing minus 25 euro of mobile phone parts)

VB.net is not a successor to VB6, but it is heavily inspired by it.

The thing with VB6 is that it was a horrible mess from both a syntax and an API point of view that you sorta just had to memorize to get anything done in. VB.net is a far better designed platform, and I can't think of a single thing that was removed. I think the big problem was that VB devs were forced to up their game, and really learn OO concepts, which they didn't want to do.

this was lousy treatment. still I am sure there was a lot of availability by Apple staff through the week.

Apple is usually pretty good at this too. Whole product teams are generally scheduled to hang out in hallways at the WWDC. The reason they did this is obvious, they know they are handling the appstore horribly, and didnt want to get raked over the coals.

Who I think are the pussy whipped bitches are the developers unwilling to grow a backbone and refuse to develop for the iPhone. Nothing is stopping these developers from standing up and saying, "enough is enough, we aren't going to support a platform that does not give us control over the development and deployment of our own product".

Personally I can't work out the fixation with the iPhone; never have and never will given that I don't have a fetish for 'smart phones'. I have an el-cheap $149 Telecom WCDMA phone (a rebranded ZTE phone) which does everything I need - it confuses me, therefore, that developers ignore that they have the power in the relationship because they can with hold developing for a said platform if they wish - the problem is that they'd sooner develop and then whine than stand on some principles.

They get their money, but they get treated like crap.

[CS]

So true! LOL!

(emphasis: mine)

I expect that Palm, RIM, Microsoft, etc are looking at the current situation and hoping for just that eventuality.

every platform has plusses and minuses. is it really better to develop for a platform with no devices out there?

yes the store is a pain - it also is a quick way for developers to market to a large audience and to monetize. those a big benefits.

You clearly have never developed for the iPhone before. It isn't a quick way to get in front of a large market, and it isn't easy to monitize. The get-rich-quick stories you read are few and far between.

Actually, the appstore makes it next to impossible for people to discover good products. What matters is time to market, not quality. The only metric you have to work with is top downloads, which ends up being a self fulfilling thing making it next to impossible for new apps to break into a given category.

It really bothers me when people like you down the iPhone just because your phone "does everything you need". That's completely irrelevant. Who cares if you don't like smart phones? Other people use their mobile devices for more than just making phone calls, and those that do love the iPhone.

I've used every PDA/smartphone platform out there (except for Android), and the iPhone is not only the best, but it is the best by a country mile. That's why developers are falling over themselves to make applications for it, and that's why the Palm Pre (which looks excellent BTW) has so shamelessly copied them.

Apple has an effective monopoly by creating a phone that is significantly better than the opposition (for now). And it is abusing that monopoly - what a shock!

Edited 2009-06-17 04:44 UTC

Looking at Apple's treatment of iPhone devs, it almost seems that they're playing hard-to-get in order to create an impression of (to steal paraphrase the Simpsons) "wow, it looks like they don't even need my business!"



Agreed, you've summed it up nicely. There's a quip that Winston Churchill made about the US that (IMO) also applies to Apple: "They always do the right thing... after they've tried everything else."

It is at that point where Apple fanbois will start to chime in and troll against Android. Once Apple changes their policies they will speak as if it was that way all along like how they do now with "DRM-Free" iTunes.

I seriously doubt if Apple really feels any pressure to do anything; it's not like developers are quitting in droves. The App store just reached WHAT milestone number of applications? So clearly what they're doing is working!

Off-topic, but I really like the new verb you're using there.

The thing is, that isn't the way they do business with OSX developers. The *kit APIs are a pleasure to work with, the tools are all free, and the documentation is pretty decent.

He didn't kill himself. The autopsy confirmed it.

Care to explain what you mean?

Do you mean that journalists are not to write about any practice they themselves do not partake in?

Or do you mean - more likely, seeing your posting history - that such a rule only applies to negative news surrounding Apple?

Please enlighten us, oh Great Apple Defender. We seek Thy wisdom.

I knew it! tyrione will come to the rescue of Apple

Can I have you app source? I'll finish it and submit it.

No way. It's already up on the App Store.

It took you this long to find out we hate Apple?

Dude, OSNews is paid for, hosted by, and developed by a secret team of upper-class hookers, who are all full-time Microsoft employees. Coincidentally (NOT! HAR HAR!), they are MY army of upper-class hookers, with which I'm going to take over the world, and force-feed everyone pies shaped and coloured like Windows logos.

At the same time, Apple users will be spanked with marshmallows, while Windows users will be covered in fairydust and ride flying unicorns to the promised land to live happily ever after with the perfect woman for every man, and the perfect man for every woman, and since I'm Dutch (as in, not a barbarian), we'll accommodate our homosexual and lesbian friends as well.

So, there you have it. You have uncovered OSNews' secret dastardly masterplan.

Drat!

Edited 2009-06-16 21:32 UTC

That's coming great from a person who reads a blog post, that may or may not be completely true, and features it in order to score a point. So much for giving Apple the benefit of the least bit of doubt.

As for what you wrote above, it's wasted on me.

Been stopping off at the 'cafes' in Amsterdam lately?

Haha, no, don't do that stuff, never done it in my life.

I'm just natural unicorn-happy.

Damn!

...

Hiring?

I guess john gruber hates apple too? http://daringfireball.net/linked/2009/06/15/arment-wwdc-fu HackerNews is known to be a hotbed of zealotry http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=659271, as is ars technica http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2009/06/devs-given-no-chance-to-a... .

In fact, it is almost like there is a global internet conspiracy out there to give apple a bad name. Either that, or most people dont turn a blind eye when they are being evil.

Who gives a rat's ass what John Gruber thinks? His ties are with Apple. My ties are with NeXT coming over to Apple. Without what we did this company was dead 3 months into 1998. There was exactly 3 months of cash on hand to keep the doors open when the iMac project went priority #1.

So... his opinion of an Apple product isn't relevant because of his ties to Apple? Oh-kay.

Now that I think of it, of the half dozen core members of the OSNews editorial team, I don't think there are any of us that don't own at least one Apple computer, and most of us use or have used Macs as our primary machines. And most of us have iPhones too. If we hate Apple, it's from familiarity.

Of course, you present information counter to the author of the post this whole flame post (the osnews post that is) is linked to and are voted down.

But your story gets much fewer hits.

The answer is YES, if it's normal practice to have Q&A and they left the hottest topic with the most pressing questions for last, then yeah, it looks like they planned all along not to answer questions and bold for the door... that's the LAST thing they left Developers taking home from their conference! Apple bolts for the door (unless you're one of the 30 of 1500 they bothered to talk to)

Yes, Apple IS supposed to have an answer for every developer... they alone reserve the right to approve or reject apps... they are the ONLY people that can give a real answer.

The app market right now is incredibly fickle. Go to apple fan sites and every few days now, another app that was a "sure thing" is shot down because Apple has decided a paying partner might make that app, or the phone company suddenly didn't like the app, or it has access to public information with "dirty words" in it, even though another app on iphone can go to the same place and get the same info. The process is opaque and in many cases they REFUSE to point to where in those "ground rules" the developer went wrong.. leaving it to mostly "we said so".

this would have been a good chance for Apple to sit down and explain.. to put something out there developers could work from, to clarify information about the process. Sounds like all they did was to read from the website, not throwing any kind of bone to the uncertainty that "your" app will be qualified for the store or not. This was a "Developer Conference" Apple should have been ready to address THE biggest issue with the iPhone app process.. they clearly weren't and simply "stuck their head in the sand" and ran away from the problems.

That's one thing I'll (grudgingly) give to Microsoft too: they do put a lot of effort into accommodating the people who develop software for their platform(s).

Although, being Microsoft, they go about it in a fairly cynical way - often (IMO) putting the convenience of developers ahead of the convenience of end-users. After all: if you bend over backwards to keep devs happy, they will write software for your OS - and end-users will then use your OS in order to have access that software (even if many end-users find the OS itself to be unbearable).

He also seems to hate Microsoft products, and Ubuntu Linux, and...

I just though of a great new tagline for OSNews! OSNews: We hate everything!

We're so cool we still can't multitask on our iPhones, 3 years after its original launch. At least we got cut, copy and paste!