Palm has released the first major update to its brand new webOS platform, version 1.1. It comes packed with a lot of bug fixes, speed improvements, and new features, mostly geared towards the enterprise, but there's also a lot of stuff in there for ordinary consumers. And iTunes sync? The game is on: Palm re-enabled iTunes syncing in webOS 1.1. Update: Palm isn't waiting for Apple to take the next step - Palm has reported Apple to the USB Implementers Forum. "Palm believes that openness and interoperability offer better experiences for users by allowing them the freedom to use the content they own without interference across devices and services, so on behalf of consumers, we have notified the USB Implementers Forum of what we believe is improper use of the Vendor ID number by another member." Update II: More on how Palm masquerades the Pre as an iPod.
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Member since:
2005-07-07
Member since:2006-03-03
"you once again can have seamless access to your music, photos and videos" So Apple wanna try to block users from accessing their OWN "music, photos and videos" just to play that silly game ? Better leave off Apple if they grant you or not the access to your own media !
Kochise
Member since:2005-08-08
Why didn't Palm write their own application to sync music and other things with their Palm Pre? Because iTunes doesn't stop you from importing *your* DRM-free music into another application and then sync it with whatever you please.
Do you require the sync software for your Sony Ericsson to work with all devices? Nokia? LG? Samsung? RIM? No, not really. So why is iTunes different? Because it doesn't suck as far as sync software goes?
Seriously, Palm dropped the ball big time on this one. They might have hired ex-apple engineers, but they sure haven't learned anything else from Apple. They need their own support structure for their device, which includes their own software for computers. I've said it before and I am saying it again. RIM should buy WebOS from Palm while it still has a chance.
Member since:2005-11-21
Do you require the sync software for your Sony Ericsson to work with all devices? Nokia? LG? Samsung? RIM? No, not really. So why is iTunes different? Because it doesn't suck as far as sync software goes?
Seriously, Palm dropped the ball big time on this one. They might have hired ex-apple engineers, but they sure haven't learned anything else from Apple. They need their own support structure for their device, which includes their own software for computers. I've said it before and I am saying it again. RIM should buy WebOS from Palm while it still has a chance.
Apple has contracts with the Producers of the Music/Video to offer them that system which in return helps drive sales of devices to Apple.
For SONY never managing that infrastructure shows a complete lack of competence on their part. They have massive music/video offerings and still didn't provide a solution to drive sales of their own hardware.
Member since:2006-01-04
Member since:2006-05-11
When Apple allow other device connect to iTunes, it also relinquishes the control to the protocol, and leave it to public domain in large. This is not bad by itself. But leave a protocol to public domain also means it will be more difficult to add new features to it in the future because have to consider compatibility to tens of vendors. So an open, public protocol should occur only when the features in a domain is relatively mature. Do you think the domain of music, phone, and smart mobile device is as mature as that of operating system or FTP server? I don't think so. Then who should decide what iTune protocol must reserve for compatibility and what should be obsolete for innovation in the future? Is that Palm or others whoever can hack it?
I'd like to have market competition to either let the real prominence player show and release its protocol much later when the feature is pretty mature, or have every player have a draw and seat down to discuss an inter-work solution all together. Inter-work through one hacking another is crazy.
Member since:2008-05-26
Member since:2005-07-11
Do you require the sync software for your Sony Ericsson to work with all devices? Nokia? LG? Samsung? RIM? No, not really. So why is iTunes different? Because it doesn't suck as far as sync software goes?
Wouldn't it be wonderful if there was just a single sync framework that all the different music managers, PIM apps, and portable devices could use? So that each individual hardware manufacturer didn't have their own, separate sync apps?
It's really annoying that we have to have a sync app for Blackberry installed, a sync app for Nokia installed, a sync app for Sony-Ericsson installed, and a sync app for Creative installed, just because we happen to have 4 different phones/music players.
Member since:2006-05-11
Member since:2006-03-03
Imagine a world where the Web is device-dependant and every attempt to show the Web in another browser it set to fault by the major Web distributor. Does it sounds like something familiar to you ? The Web has been set to a standart, is that so hard to make Music sync standart as well ? Or maybe, just maybe, iTunes sync ain't that worthwhile beside protecting Apple's artificial revenues...
Kochise
Member since:2006-05-11
Member since:2006-03-03
Member since:2009-04-24
Member since:2007-02-07
Member since:2009-04-24
The comment was intended as a (weird) joke.
Member since:
2006-07-25
I agree that apple should offer the chance for 3rd parties to access itunes sync API. iTunes on the mac has had various things bundled into the sync including notes.
However i do think it's unprofessional of a company of Palm's size to offer a product which is effectively using a hack to perform the sync. Apple has responded with a message stating that don't want people syncing with iTunes, Palm should respect this and try to work with apple on a solution.
Member since:2006-05-10
Who says they aren't already working on that behind closed doors?
Since such negotiations usually take longer, Palm certainly would want to ensure that the Pre sales are not affected by the problem of not being able to sync it with iTunes, so the quick hack seems a logical quick fix to me (also, Pre users simply should refrain from updating their iTunes until Palm "fixes the glitch" again).
Member since:
2005-07-07
Member since:2006-07-14
That I can answer with near certainty: No. They only did that once with the Motorola Rokr, and it left such a bad taste in Jobs' mouth that he launched the iphone project.
Is it really illegal to reverse engineer an interface? If it is, it really shouldn't be. Our world would be a lot less fun, if we had even less compatibility than we already have.
Member since:2005-07-09
Morality is very a difficult argument.
From wiki:
Morals are arbitrarily created and subjectively defined by society, philosophy, religion, and/or individual conscience.(and ideology)
An example of the descriptive usage could be "common conceptions of morality have changed significantly over time."
The arbitrariness of morality stems from the observation that actions that may be deemed moral in one culture in time may not be classified as such in others or in a different time. The subjectiveness of morality is shown by the observation that actions or beliefs which by themselves do not cause any harm may be by some considered immoral, e.g. marrying someone of opposite gender, not being an atheist, etc.
Descriptive morality does not explain why anything should be considered immoral, only that it may classified so. While for the most part immoral acts are classified as such because they cause harm, this is not by any means an all encompassing criterion.
Many acts or beliefs are often then classified as such because of prejudice, ignorance or even hatred.
Member since:2005-07-06
That Wiki entry only lists one view point. But if it is correct then really really we would have no moral grounds to say things like "Murder is wrong", etc. The only thing we can say is that we'll lock you up in jail but we could not say it is in very essence wrong. I think there are at best a hand full of people who can live consistently with this view. There must always be at least a few real morals.
Anyway if you look at all cultures you will find that there are many "morals" which apply to all cultures.
Member since:2007-03-26
Did Palm use underhanded means to gain the ability? Yes.
Would Apple have licensed the API to Palm? Who knows - it's too late to contemplate now.
Palm played a dirty trick, Palm needs to be shown the error of its ways. End of story. It has already been noted that Double Twist exists - if they want Palm devices to sync with iTunes - why didn't they go a more LEGAL and morally acceptable route? Because they listened to engineers - ex Apple engineers. And engineers like hacking and doing "clever" things. And Engineers also have no morals when they believe they "own" something conceptually (like Apple IP they worked on.)
I've no sympathy for Palm, and they can not justify their position. No. Not ever.
That doesn't make any sense.
Firstly you accuse Palm of playing dirty tricks because they had to work around Apples lock ins. Sure, Palm are tricking iTunes, but it's hardly a "dirty" trick when the whole reason Palm are forced into this is because of Apples own "dirty tricks" (which they use to tie people into their hardware & software)
Secondly, you accuse Palm of illegally using iTunes - well that's complete BS. Palm aren't breaching any copyright or patent laws. All they're doing is tricking iTunes into thinking the Pre is an iPhone.
And lastly, you brand engineers as immoral. Which is one hell of a sweeping statement - and (in my personal opinion) a highly ignorant comment too.
RE[2]: Pre stomping season
Member since:2007-03-26
Your post doesn't make any sense either.
As far as we know right now, Palm did not ask Apple to use iTunes to sync, so Apple isn't forcing Palm to do anything. Palm is tapping into a hack or bug, using basically computer trickery, to get access to syncing features of iTunes. This is essentially a security exploit - and it could be dangerous, because others might begin to copy it for nefarious intents.
I'm really not quite sure you understand exactly what Palm have done because the above quote is far from the truth:
1/ It's neither a hack nor a bug. Palm are just using the same USB ID as Apple do. It's nothing more than PalmPre wearing an Apple mask.
2/ it's not a security hole and nor is it something which malware could exploit to users detriment.
3/ even if it was a security exploit - you can't criticise Palm for exposing it as it would still be there and open for exploit with or without Palms intervention (in fact, in many cases, security holes only get fixed after 3rd parties expose them).
This is perfectly legal too.
And as for your other comments - iTunes functionality is reduced for non-Apple hardware. If it wasn't, then Palm wouldn't have needed to masquerade as an iPod.
This is why we have things like double twist. Blackberry is making their own syncing software that uses this information to allow them to sync with iTunes. They aren't hacking something up or using a security exploit.
Neither are Palm (for reasons explained above)
So is Palms method.
It's more 50/50. Palm are asking for trouble using an unsupported method. However (for reasons explained above) Apple did provoke Palm into this action.
Don't you think Palm would have preferred to use a documented standard if it offered the same level of functionality?
edited - forgot to spellcheck
Edited 2009-07-24 22:35 UTC
RE[4]: Pre stomping season
Member since:2005-07-24
...
...Palm is going against USB spec - it has its own vendor id and is abusing the usb standard.
And in other news, overcrowding in the special section of Hell devoted to USB Spec Abusers has reached critical status. Satan is expected to make a statement later today. Stay tuned...
Member since:2007-03-26
That's rubbish. You'd need physical access to a machine to perform this "attack" and if you have physical access to the computer then there's far far easier methods of attack rather than hoping the user has iTunes installed.
But I really can't see how this could be used as an attack. It's just a vender ID. Every USB device has a vender ID and every piece of software that powers USB devices checks for USB vender ID. It's been a standard peice of kit for years.
So I repeat - I really don't think you understand the nature of this workaround.
Apple is right to treat this as a bug or exploit in the operating system.
iTunes isn't an operating system!
This is perfectly legal too.
And as for your other comments - iTunes functionality is reduced for non-Apple hardware. If it wasn't, then Palm wouldn't have needed to masquerade as an iPod.
</quote>
You're reply:
It's not legal - Palm may lose the ability to use USB going forward.
Excuse me? Palm might lose the ability to use an open standard?
How do you reach that conclusion?
And if you're so sure Palm's work around is illegal, then please specify which law they are breaking, because they're sure as hell not breaking copyright nor patent law.
Prove me wrong then, because all you've done thus far is base your disagreements on your own sketchy speculation (eg USB might be rootkited, Palm might lose they're rights to USB, Palm are breaking unspecified laws, etc)
edit: fixed cascading quotes
Edited 2009-07-26 09:52 UTC
Member since:2007-03-26
For got to add the following comment:
I completely understand what Palm is doing, and it is surely is unethical and stupid
Ethics are subjective and this is somewhat a grey area - so i'm not going to argue ethics.
However, i think you're being a bit harsh calling it a stupid move (particluarly given you're still struggling with the idea that this isn't an OS bug)
However i do agree that this is perhaps not the best solution in terms of Palm customers.
But we're still mid case, so lets not cast the first stone until we have the gift of hindsight.
As the case currently stands, it's just as likely this might pan out to benefit millions of computer users in the long run.
Member since:
2009-02-11
I always thought that the whole "syncing with iTunes" thing was a publicity stunt, so I wasn't surprised when the iTunes update blocked the Pre. I don't think that the Palm guys where surprised either.
I was, however, surprised to see that they restore the ability to sync with webOS 1.1. I mean they are a public company. I don't think it's good for their image to brag about hacking iTunes to sync the Pre. Especially after they were explicitly blocked.
Maybe Apple should allow other devices to sync with iTunes, but that is not up to Palm to decide. Until then they should develop their own tool for syncing or tell their users to manually put thir music in the device.
Member since:2006-01-01
It's a bit like Jailbreaking iPhones. At some point Apple will win. Why? Because they control the product. They own the IP. They don't *have* to let *anyone* do *anything* with their application that they don't want to.
Remember - all music that is compatible with the Pre is only "managed" by iTunes and could be put on to any device that supports AAC or MP3. Any music that has DRM is not viable anyway.
Move on indeed.
Member since:
2005-07-06
What I just don't understand is why can't Palm do something like Nokia did. Write an app that syncs with one iTunes playlist, then just add what you want to listen/watch to that playlist. That's it. No more hacks.
Nokia Multimedia Transfer has done that for ages and it even syncs photos and videos with iPhoto.
Member since:
2006-07-26
iTunes is aweful... the Palm Pre syncing with iTunes is a bad thing because it encourages more use of iTunes.
People need to realize that you shouldn't have to use any application at all to get your music on your device.
I run RockBox on my iPod so I can just drag and drop. My other mp3 player is a Sansa and I can just drag stuff there too. Of course by drag I mean use 'cp -r' or 'rsync' but you know what I mean.
The Pre isn't an iPod it should pretend to be one. If anything Palm should have their own syncing tool, like a GUI frontend for rsync and grab all the music out of iTunes, rename the files based on ID3 tags and be done with it. Or better yet, build support for the Pre into Amarok or some other OSS music library and ship it with the units.
Member since:2007-07-01
Member since:2006-07-26
Member since:
2008-04-22
Member since:
2006-09-06
Basic things like Smilies have finally been added!
http://kb.palm.com/wps/portal/kb/na/pre/p100eww/sprint/solutions/ar...
It took them awhile, but the Pre is finally coming around...
Member since:
2006-12-05
With so many cell phones and similar embedded devices on the market, and with competition from Windows Mobile, Android, Symbian, and webOS, how is it humanly possibly to find all likely candidates for narrowing down and purchase and truly getting what fits just right? I mean, it's hard enough finding a phone with the specific features that are desired; adding the OS to the equation is enough to make my head spin (with no alcohol involved).
Apple is easy... by an iPhone, and you get their OS, if that's what you want. Symbian seems to be relatively easy as well; buy a cell phone, and there's a good chance it'll probably use Symbian as its OS. Windows Mobile... I've seen a couple of those, enough to count on one hand maybe. But android and webOS, I've never heard of a phone with one of those (hell, I don't recall even hearing of webOS until reading this article).
Choice is good... but it'd be nice if there was a simple way to pick phones by manufacturer (and maybe provider) with a certain operating system and containing certain features. Basically, the cell phone equivalent of Distrowatch or something. Personally, I'm interested in Symbian, Android, and maybe webOS... but no idea where to start looking. :/
Member since:2007-07-01
