Linked by Thom Holwerda on Wed 5th Aug 2009 00:12 UTC, submitted by rexstuff
KDE The KDE team has released KDE 4.3. This release comes packed with improvements and bug fixes - in fact, over the last six months, 10000 bugs were squashed, 2000 feature requests handled, and 63000 changes were checked in by 700 people. We've already talked about this new release in quite some detail last week, but let's take a look at the most important new features anyway.
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Great!
by Elv13 on Wed 5th Aug 2009 00:36 UTC
Elv13
Member since:
2006-06-12

"Great" really describe this release. It is now so polished that nobody can claim anymore that the desktop experience is weaker than 3.5. It may be different, but different in the right direction.

With all GSoC project going well, 4.4 will be an even better release, but KDE 4.3 is KDE4 (4.2 was to in my opinion). KDE4 is not Current version +1 anymore, it is now, we are living in and every new version is just a step forward to the long term goals and vision of KDE.

Reply Score: 12

RE: Great!
by siride on Wed 5th Aug 2009 00:49 UTC in reply to "Great!"
siride Member since:
2006-01-02

Polished my ass. I still encounter the same bugginess, misfeatures and slowness as before. I still don't know why resizing windows and doing simple things like browsing files should be painfully slow and require pegging the CPU. KDE 3.5 flies on the same machine. Bugs have been filed, but who cares at this point. I'm not using the latest high speed graphics card on a quad core machine, so apparently users like me don't count.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: Great!
by fridder on Wed 5th Aug 2009 01:19 UTC in reply to "RE: Great!"
fridder Member since:
2007-11-03

See this comment to Thom's review, it is a known bug http://www.osnews.com/permalink?375523

Reply Score: 2

v RE[3]: Great!
by siride on Wed 5th Aug 2009 01:28 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Great!"
RE[4]: Great!
by Elv13 on Wed 5th Aug 2009 01:39 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Great!"
Elv13 Member since:
2006-06-12

ATI driver have a problem with 4.3. Who is responsible is yet to be clear. About other resizing bug, as I said in that post, "normal" resizing protocol is time based, not direct. KDE3 and Gnome2 use(d) an hack to have pixel per pixel resize. It is not part of X protocol and is inofficial, but Qt 4.6 will support that walk around protocol. So it is not really Qt/KDE problem, but it is just how resize should behave on Linux, even if it look slow.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Great!
by JesseWagner on Wed 5th Aug 2009 02:58 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Great!"
JesseWagner Member since:
2009-02-17

Part of software engineering is getting a desired out of sometimes suboptimal components. Sounds like they should have implemented the hack and the correct way to do it and used the build system to check if the proper way was supported.

Reply Score: 3

RE[6]: Great!
by Elv13 on Wed 5th Aug 2009 04:17 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Great!"
Elv13 Member since:
2006-06-12

It does not involve the build system, just the windows manager (WM) running the application, but yes, both can live together.

http://labs.trolltech.com/blogs/2009/06/10/smooth-and-solid-resizin... (Gnome implement the hack, Kwin3 did too)

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Great!
by lemur2 on Wed 5th Aug 2009 02:33 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Great!"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

I'm tired of the excuses. Qt4 and GTK+ are just plain slow and there's no getting around that. And to top it off, while KDE 3.5 and to some extent GTK+ apps have been getting faster on my machine as my X drivers and server improve, Qt 4 has gone considerably slower. That just doesn't make sense. Somebody is screwing up.


Your machine wouldn't have Intel graphics by any chance would it?

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=intel_q309_flake...

On my test machine, KDE 4.3 is faster than any previous version of KDE (including KDE 3 series) and faster than GNOME.

Edited 2009-08-05 02:35 UTC

Reply Score: 5

RE[5]: Great!
by siride on Wed 5th Aug 2009 02:37 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Great!"
siride Member since:
2006-01-02

I have ATI Radeon Mobility X300 (r300) with 64 MB of video memory. It's really pretty performant...except when it comes to Qt4. Of course Windows flies, but that's to be expected since they actually know how to write a performant graphics system.

Reply Score: 3

RE[6]: Great!
by lemur2 on Wed 5th Aug 2009 02:48 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Great!"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

I have ATI Radeon Mobility X300 (r300) with 64 MB of video memory. It's really pretty performant...except when it comes to Qt4. Of course Windows flies, but that's to be expected since they actually know how to write a performant graphics system.


fglrx has dropped support for this chipset, and it never worked well with KDE4 for older versions. KDE4 exposes some aspects of the graphics driver that no other software does.

New open source drivers for ATI chipsets might be available in a few months, by all reports.

Reply Score: 3

RE[7]: Great!
by siride on Wed 5th Aug 2009 02:49 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Great!"
siride Member since:
2006-01-02

I'm using the Open Source drivers and, like I said, they work great for everything but KDE4 and Qt4.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Great!
by Elv13 on Wed 5th Aug 2009 02:51 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Great!"
Elv13 Member since:
2006-06-12

It is available for X300 since years, the speed is even getting fine for compiz, but not yet perfect for KDE. They both get better, so it may work fine soon.

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: Great!
by segedunum on Wed 5th Aug 2009 21:42 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Great!"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Yep. Yet another chipset falls into a hole between fglrx and the open source drivers.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Great!
by segedunum on Wed 5th Aug 2009 21:40 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Great!"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

ATI is junk I'm afraid. Use Intel or nVidia if you can. At least 'most' things will actually work OK. You end up falling into holes where either fglrx supports what you need but doesn't support your chips set, or the open source drivers support your chipset but not the features you need to get things working.

Edited 2009-08-05 21:41 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Great!
by siride on Wed 5th Aug 2009 21:42 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Great!"
siride Member since:
2006-01-02

As I posted before, most things *do* work okay...except KDE4/Qt4. I mean, 3d performance is pretty good, 2d is excellent for everything but KDE4. Compiz flies. kompmgr really flies. And that's using the open source drivers. I never experience crashes or odd slowdowns (again, except for KDE4).

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Great!
by atdbds on Fri 7th Aug 2009 03:24 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Great!"
atdbds Member since:
2009-08-07

I have a ATI Technologies Inc RV370 5B60 [Radeon X300 (PCIE)] and everything worked fine here in KDE 4.2 and now KDE 4.3. The proprietary driver from ATI of course no longer supports my hardware ; so I use the radeon open source driver with all the bling (read: compositing) enabled ; so not all ATI cards are affected or useless and it most definitely is not a KDE issue as it works for me.

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: Great!
by lemur2 on Fri 7th Aug 2009 09:32 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Great!"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

I have a ATI Technologies Inc RV370 5B60 [Radeon X300 (PCIE)] and everything worked fine here in KDE 4.2 and now KDE 4.3. The proprietary driver from ATI of course no longer supports my hardware ; so I use the radeon open source driver with all the bling (read: compositing) enabled ; so not all ATI cards are affected or useless and it most definitely is not a KDE issue as it works for me.


I have a graphics card on one machine that is described by lshw as follows:

description: VGA compatible controller
product: RV610 video device [Radeon HD 2400 PRO]
vendor: ATI Technologies Inc


I have Kubuntu Karmic Alpha 3 installed, and just recently that was updated to KDE 4.3.

Even though the radeon open source driver for this card does not yet support compositing and 3D harware acceleration, it does support 2D.

$ aptitude show xserver-xorg-video-radeon
Package: xserver-xorg-video-radeon
State: installed
Automatically installed: no
Version: 1:6.12.99+git20090629.f39cafc5-0ubuntu5
Priority: optional
Section: x11
Maintainer: Ubuntu Core Developers <ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com>
Uncompressed Size: 1032k
Depends: libc6 (>= 2.1.3), libpciaccess0, xserver-xorg-core (>= 2:1.5.99.901)
Suggests: firmware-linux
Replaces: xserver-xorg-video-ati (<= 1:6.8.191-1)
Provides: xserver-xorg-video-5
Description: X.Org X server -- ATI Radeon display driver
This driver for the X.Org X server (see xserver-xorg for a further description) provides support for the ATI Radeon and FireGL series. It provides the 'radeon' driver.

Note that this is not the same as the ATI-provided, binary-only, 'fglrx' driver, which provides additional 3D functionality for some newer Radeon cards, but is not supported.

This driver provides support for Radeon and FireGL series ATI cards.

More information about X.Org can be found at: <URL:http://www.X.org> <URL:http://xorg.freedesktop.org>
<URL:http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg>

This package is built from the X.org xf86-video-ati driver module.

$


KDE4 works better than it ever has before on this hardware. Better than any other desktop ever has, even Windows XP with a driver from ATI is not as snappy.

Bellisimo ... and it can only get better once compositing works.

It flies.

Oh, and Firefox 3.5 on this hardware with this driver is incredibly fast as well.

Edited 2009-08-07 09:38 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Great!
by bnolsen on Wed 5th Aug 2009 03:58 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Great!"
bnolsen Member since:
2006-01-06

QT4 over engineered their rendering engines. They did it to get all the fancy effects like AA, composing, etc. Unfortunately they tanked their performance for CAD type applications and pretty much tossed any hope of running remote display/remote terminal applications.

It's a shame and probably all this stuff needs to be ripped out, refactored and dramatically simplified, like the whole rest of QT.

Reply Score: 4

RE[5]: Great!
by Messere on Wed 5th Aug 2009 06:26 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Great!"
Messere Member since:
2006-10-12

QT4 over engineered their rendering engines. [...] and pretty much tossed any hope of running remote display/remote terminal applications.


So true.

NX client connected to kde4 is unbearably slow compared to kde3 on the same network link. And it gets even worse with "raster" rendering enabled.

Reply Score: 4

RE[5]: Great!
by superstoned on Wed 5th Aug 2009 09:20 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Great!"
superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

Over engineered - well, yes, that's one way of looking at it. You could also say they developed a rendering engine capable of using the latest hardware acceleration features available. Those features (still) don't work properly on linux (no problem on win and mac, btw) so now it's up to the X.org devs and driver developers to fix their software.

KDE isn't an operating system, you know. We build upon what is provided by the platform - and if the platform provides a sucky infrastructure, our performance suffers. And in the interest of moving forward, we refuse to work around bugs in the lower stack - we'd rather see them fixed. Sorry for that but we believe progress needs a strong platform. And those features we're gonna need in the future won't be done properly i we don't put some pressure on those working on it.

Reply Score: 15

RE[6]: Great!
by Tuishimi on Wed 5th Aug 2009 16:09 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Great!"
Tuishimi Member since:
2005-07-06

Why not meet halfway by implementing some "cheap hack" to speed it up, one that can be pulled when the underlying infrastructure improves? It could be part of the regression testing with each build/release cycle to run without the hack and with the hack to check for the performance levels.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Great!
by mat69 on Wed 5th Aug 2009 18:00 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Great!"
mat69 Member since:
2006-03-29

That would in fact be one way.

Though experience shows that once a hack is in it takes pretty long to get it removed --> look at the hacks in KDE 3.
Especially if people denied there was a bug at all in the beginning. They would simply say that the hack "fixed" the bug and the bug was in your application so no need to change anything in their code.

"As long as it 'works' there is no reason to change it." (not a quote! rather a way of thinking)

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Great!
by molnarcs on Wed 5th Aug 2009 06:14 UTC in reply to "RE: Great!"
molnarcs Member since:
2005-09-10

Polished my ass. I still encounter the same bugginess, misfeatures and slowness as before. I still don't know why resizing windows and doing simple things like browsing files should be painfully slow and require pegging the CPU. KDE 3.5 flies on the same machine. Bugs have been filed, but who cares at this point. I'm not using the latest high speed graphics card on a quad core machine, so apparently users like me don't count.

Do you, by any chance, use Kubuntu? Which distribution do you use?

On Fedora KDE 4.3 is rock stable, fast, beautiful - dunno where your "bugginess and misfeatures" come from. Oh, and if you don't like one feature or another, that does not make it a misfeature - others may appreaciate it...

Reply Score: 7

RE[2]: Great!
by sebas on Wed 5th Aug 2009 08:53 UTC in reply to "RE: Great!"
sebas Member since:
2008-02-02

Resizing windows is slow due to lagging graphics drivers. I've tested it on various combinations (nVidia blog, ATI blob and free, Intel), and in principle the desktop is fast. Bad drivers (or badly setup drivers) cause this kind of delay in resizing windows.

Please file bugs for those drivers, so we can all have fast graphics at some point.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Great!
by siride on Wed 5th Aug 2009 13:48 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Great!"
siride Member since:
2006-01-02

So why can I resize Qt3, GTK+, Motif, etc. applications with little to no delay, even with a compositing manager running, on the same machine with the same driver settings, but Qt4 apps can't handle it?

I should file a bug, to be sure, but the problem is not the graphics drivers and it's time the KDE4 folks stop pinning the problem on the graphics drivers and instead own up to the fact that their software is SLOW.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Great!
by SlackerJack on Wed 5th Aug 2009 13:56 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Great!"
SlackerJack Member since:
2005-11-12

Qt4 uses XRender much more aggressively. Funny though how NVIDIA fixed the very bad 2D performance with Qt/KDE4 in the 180.x series, people said exactly the same thing.

While I'm at it, NVIDIA fixed OpenGL crashes which affected Plasma and memory leaks in their driver. Have a guess who got blamed for that too?

Reply Score: 4

RE[4]: Great!
by boudewijn on Wed 5th Aug 2009 14:04 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Great!"
boudewijn Member since:
2006-03-05

It's time you jumping to conclusions you are not qualified to make. Do some research -- dive into some code, from kwin down to the X11 driver and then come back with a thorough analysis. You then will have helped a lot of people get informed and will have gained some respect. But right now, you're just spouting nonsense.

Reply Score: 7

RE[5]: Great!
by siride on Wed 5th Aug 2009 14:20 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Great!"
siride Member since:
2006-01-02

I don't need to look into the code and do a thorough reductionist analysis when the behavior is crystal clear: everything but Qt4 is slow on my system. If *everything* was slow, sure, blame the drivers. However, I find it very hard to believe it is just the drivers' fault if only one toolkit ever seems to have a problem. And if it is the drivers' fault, it's because the toolkit is making use of edge cases which the other toolkits can clearly get by without using and Qt4 should do the same. Again, don't need to look at code to know the correct answer here.

It should not take noticeable amounts of time to redraw a section of a double-buffered window during an exposure event. I don't need to look at code to know that that is bad behavior on the part of the toolkit.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Great!
by sbergman27 on Wed 5th Aug 2009 14:47 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Great!"
sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

I don't need to look into the code and do a thorough reductionist analysis when the behavior is crystal clear: everything but Qt4 is slow on my system.

Some of the responses you are receiving are indeed bizarre.

Operator: 911. May I help you?

Caller: My table saw just went haywire and cut off my arm!!! I'm losing blood fast!!! Help!!!

Operator: Have you gotten an anatomy book and studied it carefully to see exactly what the problem might be, and why owners of other table saws might not have had their arms cut off?

Edited 2009-08-05 14:49 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE[6]: Great!
by molnarcs on Wed 5th Aug 2009 16:11 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Great!"
molnarcs Member since:
2005-09-10

But at least you need to listen to people explaining what the problem is instead of dismissing them offhand, and blaming the toolkit. Like it is known that kwin exposes more features of the graphic card than other compositing window managers. This is how bugs are found in the drivers, and actually NVidia acknowledged that the problem is on their side some time ago and they issued a fix - but don't let that bother you. Just keep harping on how KDE sucks for YOU ignoring other's comments or requests for more information. You're at 10% now (of the total number of comments) basically repeating yourself over and over again. Keep up the good work, and you may reach 20%, maybe then you'll accept that we HEARD YOU THE FIRST TIME, and you can stop wailing...

Reply Score: 5

RE[6]: Great!
by tyrione on Wed 5th Aug 2009 17:04 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Great!"
tyrione Member since:
2005-11-21

I don't need to look into the code and do a thorough reductionist analysis when the behavior is crystal clear: everything but Qt4 is slow on my system. If *everything* was slow, sure, blame the drivers. However, I find it very hard to believe it is just the drivers' fault if only one toolkit ever seems to have a problem. And if it is the drivers' fault, it's because the toolkit is making use of edge cases which the other toolkits can clearly get by without using and Qt4 should do the same. Again, don't need to look at code to know the correct answer here.

It should not take noticeable amounts of time to redraw a section of a double-buffered window during an exposure event. I don't need to look at code to know that that is bad behavior on the part of the toolkit.


everything thing but Qt4 is fast on my system.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Great!
by segedunum on Wed 5th Aug 2009 22:00 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Great!"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

If *everything* was slow, sure, blame the drivers. However, I find it very hard to believe it is just the drivers' fault if only one toolkit ever seems to have a problem.

You can try another variable - the drivers and the graphics chipset - as has been explained quite a few times in this thread and as I'd explained in another post. If it's KDE 4's fault then if you vary the graphics driver and the chipset then the issues should remain. They don't. ATI's Linux drivers are junk right now if you expect everything to work well.

Either you can't face up to the fact that ATI's Linux driver support is pretty useless or you're labouring on this for reasons that are best known to you.

Reply Score: 3

RE[7]: Great!
by siride on Thu 6th Aug 2009 05:02 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Great!"
siride Member since:
2006-01-02

You still can't explain to me why performance of every other toolkit and DE is great, only KDE 4 has problems. From my point of view, the variable is the desktop environment, and changing that variable from KDE 3.5 to KDE 4 using the same drivers, same X server on the same hardware results in drastically different performance. I vary the variable again by using GNOME, or XFCE, or Fluxbox or whatever, different compositing managers (besides KWin 4) and performance is still fine. What else am I supposed to believe, other than that KDE 4 does not make efficient use of what is otherwise decent and performant hardware?

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Great!
by lemur2 on Wed 5th Aug 2009 14:43 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Great!"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

I should file a bug, to be sure, but the problem is not the graphics drivers and it's time the KDE4 folks stop pinning the problem on the graphics drivers and instead own up to the fact that their software is SLOW.


The problem with doing this is that the KDE4 software is not slow.

KDE4 absolutely flies on systems where the graphics stack works properly. Fastest desktop there is.

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: Great!
by Thom_Holwerda on Wed 5th Aug 2009 14:45 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Great!"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

KDE4 absolutely flies on systems where the graphics stack works properly. Fastest desktop there is.


And how do I get to such a system? What parts? What drivers? I'm genuinely interested.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: Great!
by lemur2 on Wed 5th Aug 2009 14:55 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Great!"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

"KDE4 absolutely flies on systems where the graphics stack works properly. Fastest desktop there is.


And how do I get to such a system? What parts? What drivers? I'm genuinely interested.
"

Frankly, I have no idea.

What I do know is that on some systems KDE4 absolutely flies. Faster than any other desktop.

By no means is this the case for all systems, but it is so for some.

The thing is ... this fact alone exonerates KDE4. You can have a situation where fast software is slowed down by something else on a particular system, but you cannot have a case where slow software is made fast on particular systems.

Ergo, KDE4 itself is not slow. If KDE4 itself was slow, it would be slow everywhere.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Great!
by sbergman27 on Wed 5th Aug 2009 14:58 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Great!"
sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

"""
And how do I get to such a system? What parts? What drivers? I'm genuinely interested.
"""

Frankly, I have no idea.

So.... Lemur2 does not actually *have* a system which performs well with KDE4. He's certainly never mentioned that before. All this time, he's only been going on what he's heard some other people claim.

Edited 2009-08-05 15:02 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Great!
by boldingd on Wed 5th Aug 2009 21:50 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Great!"
boldingd Member since:
2009-02-19

The thing is ... this fact alone exonerates KDE4. You can have a situation where fast software is slowed down by something else on a particular system, but you cannot have a case where slow software is made fast on particular systems.

Ergo, KDE4 itself is not slow. If KDE4 itself was slow, it would be slow everywhere.


It's entirely possible for some quirk of a system to allow software that poorly suits the general case to out-perform software that is well-written for the general case. The fact that KDE4 may have, at some point, in time, for some very specific configuration, out-performed all other DE's (however you'd measure that), does not mean that, in general, KDE4 is never the performance problem.
I'm also assuming that "every other DE" means, say, XFCE, Gnome, maybe XP and Vista, maybe even OS X. If you're trying to get me to believe that KDE4 out-performed BlackBox (again, however you measure it) on the same hardware, well, I'll call BS on that particular claim. ;)

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Great!
by molnarcs on Wed 5th Aug 2009 16:04 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Great!"
molnarcs Member since:
2005-09-10

I have a year-old laptop with an Nvidia 8400 GS chipset. KDE 4 flies with this setup in all respects except window resizing when wobbly windows are activated. Note that maximize (vertically/horizontally) works fine, arbitrary resizing is ... well, too wobbly. But for anything else (desktop grid, expose like window switching, minimize animations, fade-ins/outs, flying dialogue windows) smooth, and fast. Fedora 11, kde 4.3 from kde testing repos.

One thing to note - it matters a lot which distribution you try and WHEN. For example, Mandriva usually finalizes its graphics driver stack (ATI & NVidia proprietary drivers) right before release. Now if you use an alpha version, or you mix & match packages from cooker, don't expect a smooth sailing.

That's one of the reasons I asked siride to at least clarify what distro he uses, for it can explain a lot of things. Instead, he is too busy spamming this whole thread with his whining about how QT sucks. I know I'm a bit harsh here, but after a point (lets say when his rants against QT reach 10%+ of all comments in this thread) I call this spamming, especially since he just doesn't seem to care much about any explanations. Like to the fact that NVidia actually acknowledged that the problem is in their drivers and not QT when we had a similar problems on NVidia cards a while back.

Reply Score: 8

RE[7]: Great!
by mksoft on Wed 5th Aug 2009 21:27 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Great!"
mksoft Member since:
2006-02-25

I have a year-old laptop with an Nvidia 8400 GS chipset. KDE 4 flies with this setup in all respects except window resizing when wobbly windows are activated. Note that maximize (vertically/horizontally) works fine, arbitrary resizing is ... well, too wobbly. But for anything else (desktop grid, expose like window switching, minimize animations, fade-ins/outs, flying dialogue windows) smooth, and fast. Fedora 11, kde 4.3 from kde testing repos.


Same experience here. KDE 4.3 RC3, ArchLinux (testing) on ThinkPad X60s (intel 945GM).

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: Great!
by siride on Wed 5th Aug 2009 21:45 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Great!"
siride Member since:
2006-01-02

I use Gentoo, but I have built my entire X.org from Git master. Every other distro is slow as crap on my system, for reasons that are unclear to me (same driver settings on different distros = different results).

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Great!
by smeat on Wed 5th Aug 2009 18:27 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Great!"
smeat Member since:
2006-07-27

I am running KDE 4.2 on a GeForce 8600 GTS in an Intel Xeon X3210 @ 2.13GHz with 2GB of RAM. My KDE flies, absolutely flawless. I am currently running the Chakra meta-distro of Arch Linux. Nothing fancy or fast. You could build this system for $400 easy.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: Great!
by segedunum on Wed 5th Aug 2009 22:11 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Great!"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Basically, use an Intel chipset and your distro's drivers or an nVidia chipset with a recent driver. Many nVidia driver updates specifically fix KDE 4 issues, especially with Xrender. Your mileage might vary with ATI, but you'll be hopping around with the ati, radeonhd and fglrx drivers and stuff like Xv will still be broken or working poorly.

Edited 2009-08-05 22:13 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Great!
by Thom_Holwerda on Wed 5th Aug 2009 22:14 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Great!"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Basically, use an Intel chipset and your distro's drivers or an nVidia chipset with a recent driver. Your mileage might vary with ATI, but you'll be hopping around with the ati, radeonhd and fglrx drivers and stuff like Xv will still be broken or working poorly.


I *am* using an NVIDIA card (6200, 128MB dedicated RAM) with a recent driver, and KDE 4 is STILL showing BAD performance. Resizing especially is unusable, and various other animations are jittery.

The exact same card with the exact same driver has NO problems with Compiz - which is smooth as butter.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: Great!
by superstoned on Thu 6th Aug 2009 13:12 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Great!"
superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

Try KDE on windows. The first app is a bit slow due to having to load all the KDE libs and to have to start dbus and such services. But after that, it's pretty good.

And on my system at home and on this laptop KDE is very fast. This laptop is a sony Vaio VGN-TZ31XN - 1.2 ghz dualcore proc, GMA950 grapics and 2 gb ram and 4200 rpm drive. In other words, nothing special.

Home system is dualcore 2 ghz Athlon 64 with 3 gb ram and Nvidia Geforce 6600 videocard. Again, far from special. Works perfectly fine, graphical effects are completely smooth. Ok, granted, since 2 days (X.org upgrade) X.org consistently uses 30-50% CPU. But this is arch linux, a new version will be here soon and I can handle this for a few days.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Great!
by eldarion on Wed 5th Aug 2009 18:41 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Great!"
eldarion Member since:
2008-12-15

I think that will be fixed on Qt 4.6

Take a look at http://labs.trolltech.com/blogs/2009/06/10/smooth-and-solid-resizin...

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Great!
by JPisini on Wed 5th Aug 2009 11:50 UTC in reply to "RE: Great!"
JPisini Member since:
2006-01-24

I'm with you I have used KDE from the early alphas when the only way to get was to compile it your self all the way to 3.5.10 now I just have no use for it, like Vista it requires too much of my system I use my computer to get things done while I do want it to look good I don't want it to spend the bulk of it's time doing that instead of doing what I want it to. It just seems like we are adding things to the system just because we can not because it helps us get things done.

Reply Score: 1

v RE[2]: Great (for fan bois :)!
by usr0 on Thu 6th Aug 2009 10:21 UTC in reply to "RE: Great!"
v What about the WM theme?
by theosib on Wed 5th Aug 2009 00:50 UTC
RE: What about the WM theme?
by Elv13 on Wed 5th Aug 2009 01:01 UTC in reply to "What about the WM theme?"
Elv13 Member since:
2006-06-12

There is no new theme, only Plasma got one. KWin decoration got the ability to have real transparency in theme, old timer like Crystal and new theme should so appear and use that feature. The current one is not really nice, your right.

Reply Score: 1

RE: What about the WM theme?
by sj87 on Wed 5th Aug 2009 04:47 UTC in reply to "What about the WM theme?"
sj87 Member since:
2007-12-16

Maybe they just forgot to enable it, but I've seen a video of the new KDE4.3, and the window decorations (for windows, not plasma applets) still look as awful as they did before. Where's the new theme?

You have misunderstood. "Window manager components follow plasma theming", it doesn't mean window borders are themed in Plasma style. That'd be crap anyways. It is the compositing effects' parts that change with the current Plasma theme. But it seems to be very small changes. I've only noticed the text labels in Cover Flow and the Cube.

I myself am not a fan of the layout customizing tool that's currently in use at least in Amarok and Kopete (since KDE 4.3). It's very complicated and uncomfortable to use.

Edited 2009-08-05 04:58 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE: What about the WM theme?
by molnarcs on Wed 5th Aug 2009 08:37 UTC in reply to "What about the WM theme?"
molnarcs Member since:
2005-09-10

Maybe they just forgot to enable it, but I've seen a video of the new KDE4.3, and the window decorations (for windows, not plasma applets) still look as awful as they did before. Where's the new theme?


Let me correct that for you - ... window decorations (for windows, not plasma applets) still look beautiful as they did before.

You see, it's a matter of taste. You're talking about the oxygen widget style + window decorations, both of which I found very polished. The windeco is configurable (see how I rearranged the buttons), and it blends in smoothly with the color of the window backgroun (see unfocused windows) The widgets are finally the right size (I saw someone claiming they are oversized - wtf? just take a look, how are those buttons/drop-down menus/toolbar buttons oversized?) and clear, crisp, and readable:
http://picasaweb.google.com/CsabaMolnar/Computer#536639413732211094...

You can also adjust the contrast in Appearance/Colors to make it sharper if you wish.

Saying they look awful is nothing but arrogance - you can say you don't like them, I'm fine with that, but at least you can allow for the possibility that quite a few of us like it. In fact, this is the first style I don't really feel the need to change immediately, the first time that the defaults look great. Still, if you prefer GNOME style oversized widgets plastic is available along with a number of other styles (probably sculpture being the next best thing to oxygen).

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: What about the WM theme?
by Wrawrat on Wed 5th Aug 2009 19:19 UTC in reply to "RE: What about the WM theme?"
Wrawrat Member since:
2005-06-30

You see, it's a matter of taste. You're talking about the oxygen widget style + window decorations, both of which I found very polished. The windeco is configurable (see how I rearranged the buttons), and it blends in smoothly with the color of the window backgroun (see unfocused windows) The widgets are finally the right size (I saw someone claiming they are oversized - wtf? just take a look, how are those buttons/drop-down menus/toolbar buttons oversized?) and clear, crisp, and readable:
http://picasaweb.google.com/CsabaMolnar/Computer#536639413732211094...

Of course, this is a matter of taste. That said, a glance at your screenshot makes me feel like I was staring at rock slabs. Everything is so... gray. A bit depressing. I know that other DE are using grays (OS X, GNOME), but they use color gradients, which is more appealing to the eyes.

That said, the screenshots accompanying the press release look good.

Anyway, my pet peeve against KDE has always been the lack of general polish. That's a bit hard to describe... When I use it, I just feel that everything was patched together instead of being designed. I believe that's how many people feel. I know that KDE doesn't benefit from the same financial/workforce support as GNOME, I am persuaded that KDE framework is definitely superior to the one found in GNOME, I love Qt... yet it doesn't matter much when you just want to use your system.

On another note, when can we expect KDE 4.3 binaries for Debian? I want to give it a try. Unfortunately, Kubuntu is quite buggy, while Fedora's policies are getting in my way (even RPM Fusion don't have all packages I'd like).

Edited 2009-08-05 19:22 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: What about the WM theme?
by molnarcs on Wed 5th Aug 2009 20:25 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: What about the WM theme?"
molnarcs Member since:
2005-09-10

I don't think general polish is an issue anymore, not at least since 4.2.x, especially of course 4.2.4. However, if you're into desktop widgets, there are too many crapware on kde-look directly hooked into gethotnewstuff that it can easily give that impression. You can ignore them, or just use some of the basic, well tested widgets, or alternatively, google widgets...

About the colors - well, I have a black dell vostro 1400 (with lots of blue leds) so I was thinking of something that integrates well with the hardware ;) Hence my background's black, the plasma theme is black (I mixed here a little), and the color theme's name is gentle grey (I'm sure you wouldn't have guessed ;) Another reason that you see gray is that I allowed fade inactive windows in desktop effects, so they grey out slightly if not focused. Basically I like my black & white desktop because it makes colors even more outsdanding (icons, notifications, important stuff).

As to your last question - see, that's the ONLY thing kubuntu has for it: the package management. I wrote a very long post a while ago about comparing KDE distroes, and the only ones available seem to be RPM based. Now with KpackageKit + presto plugin RPM on Fedora is not bad, not bad at all. They also have stable packages, but ZERO usable configuration tools, and the KDE menu is just horrible (like you can find settings in three different submenus with NO apparent logic).

That leaves you with OpenSuse or Mandriva. OpenSUSE has readily available KDE 4.3 packages, but if you're coming from a Debian background, you'll absolutely hate its package management. It's sloooooooooow. Disfunctional. Plus you need to add KDE:Factory repositories, which would be OK if it was a one-time-act, but actually you constantly have to keep an eye on it because the next update may lend you alpha kode from kde 4.4 branch.

Now Mandriva - I know it's RPM based, but even without presto urpmi (their RPM backand) was fast, snappy, seemed lightweight, and had all the features I needed. GUI is well designed, commandline is dead easy. Problem is, Mandriva usually lags behind with updates. The result is polish actually - it is the most polished KDE implementation I've seen, but for now, this means that the only way to try out KDE is to download their 2010 Alpha2. Usually they take great care to make Cooker (their development branch) reasonably stable, but I'd be careful with this release (they just integrated a new kernel shortly before the release). Plus they have a tendency to release usable 3rd party drivers (ATI & NVidia) right before the release.

If you try KDE4.3 and like it, on the long term I'd recommend Mandriva, seems to be the most KDE-dedicated distro, with very good package management considering it's RPM. For short term, OpenSuse might be good if you just want to play around, unlike Kubuntu, they do seem to do some testing before releasing an update. And sorry to say, but I don't know any DEB based distroes with decen KDE support. But recently, with PackageKit (that works on fedora very well) + presto plugin I don't think there is reason to favour DEBs over RPM. I don't see real difference between performance/features, except with OpenSuSE.

EDIT--> Forgot to mention Pardus, I've never tried it, and I'm planning to go back to Mandriva for good when their next release hits RC status, but the general opinion seems to be that it's flawless. Might worth a try.

Edited 2009-08-05 20:29 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: What about the WM theme?
by Wrawrat on Thu 6th Aug 2009 00:03 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: What about the WM theme?"
Wrawrat Member since:
2005-06-30

I guess I'll see about the general polish once I try this new release. Last time I used KDE (4.1), it was a complete disaster. KDE has been my DE of choice until GNOME started giving me a better user experience. Must be around 2005? It always had that amateur feeling to me. Mind you, it's not necessarily a bad thing: it's a reminder of being a product of the community (as corporate investment on their project is minimal compared to GNOME). I suppose that tastes can change with time.

As for my preference for Debian, it's nothing against the RPM system. I've used Fedora for a few years and yum did the job for me. Debian just got tons of packages and doesn't get too anal about patents, or potential legal issues when a package is free software. It's quite easy to get packages for software outside the main repositories, too. Unfortunately, I fear it might be even more difficult to get the software I'm looking for in smaller distros!

That said, it looks like KDE 4.3 packages are already in Debian unstable; with a little bit of luck, they could be promoted to squeeze/testing soon...

Reply Score: 2

superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

BTW you're not entirely right on the corporate involvement thing. The % of KDE which is developed for money is lower than GNOME, but due to the larger size of KDE the actual numbers are very close.

Reply Score: 2

Mouse gestures!
by bralkein on Wed 5th Aug 2009 00:53 UTC
bralkein
Member since:
2006-12-20

I didn't see this mentioned anywhere else, so I thought I'd mention it here, since it involves a feature I think is really cool.

Mouse gesture support in KDE 4.3 is really good. It's so accurate I can map it so that I write my name (Jack) on the screen in cursive and it recognises it okay no matter what the size. Hopefully my mentioning it will be useful to someone!

Mouse gestures are assigned using System Settings -> Input Actions. One of the more useful bindings is from a mouse gesture to a D-Bus call. I had real problems making this work because the D-Bus explorer doesn't make it obvious how to actually call the D-Bus function of your choice. To help illustrate I have an example of it here:

Remote application: org.kde.amarok
Remote object: /Player
Function: org.freedesktop.MediaPlayer.Pause

Anyway have a go and tell me what you reckon, I'd be really interested to see what you guys think about mouse gestures, I really loved them since I saw them in Opera even though I'm a CLI freak. Cheers!

Reply Score: 7

Great!!
by mitohuffman on Wed 5th Aug 2009 00:57 UTC
mitohuffman
Member since:
2009-08-05

=) My openSuSE is now updating.

Reply Score: 1

...
by Hiev on Wed 5th Aug 2009 01:17 UTC
Hiev
Member since:
2005-09-27

The good:

* They finally focused in stability.
* The overal speed feels better.

The bad:
* Oxygen theme, matter of taste of course.
* The air circles in plasma theme, distracting.
* Round borders in context menu, due to the Oxygen theme.
* The font in the calendar is to huge.
* Some plasmoid still make plasma crash, sandboxing anyone?
* Dolphin is slow some times.
* No pdf previews in icons, like images do.
* To much focus in eye candy, but productivity apps. like mail and browser still lack behind.
* No way to search for content, something like tracker.
* The side bar in Okular, no way to deactivate it (but maybe im wrong).
* Digikam takes to much memory (80 megas w/o any picture), and it uses marble as a dependency still when many of us don't have any use for it, pluggins anyone?
* Many of the plasmoids are useless, just a few of them have a real porpose.
* KWin still is buggy and gets slow some times, driver issued? don't know, compiz has no problems.
* Separators in panels? not intuitive at all, could be a lot better.

Hopely all this points will be fixed, some are minors and some are not that minors.

Edited 2009-08-05 01:22 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE: ...
by fridder on Wed 5th Aug 2009 01:23 UTC in reply to "..."
fridder Member since:
2007-11-03


* No way to search for content, somethink like tracker.

Have you taken a look at http://nepomuk.semanticdesktop.org/xwiki/bin/view/Main1/ I have not used it much but it may fill your need.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: ...
by Hiev on Wed 5th Aug 2009 01:27 UTC in reply to "RE: ..."
Hiev Member since:
2005-09-27

Nepomuk is a semantic oriented search, and what understand it won't be ready till 4.4, strigi was supposed to be the tracker of KDE, I don't know if exists ot what gui doesn it has.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: ...
by Elv13 on Wed 5th Aug 2009 01:42 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: ..."
Elv13 Member since:
2006-06-12

Both strigi and Nepomuk are enabled by default since 4.1, you can use alt+f2, dolphin search box or nepomuk KIO to use them, a "nice GUI" will exist if someone take time to write one.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: ...
by lemur2 on Wed 5th Aug 2009 02:30 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: ..."
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

Both strigi and Nepomuk are enabled by default since 4.1, you can use alt+f2, dolphin search box or nepomuk KIO to use them, a "nice GUI" will exist if someone take time to write one.


Isn't Krunner (alt+F2) the GUI?

Dolphin's search and also the menu search box also use strigi (and hence present alternative GUIs) don't they?

BTW, here is a hint: remove the default KDE menu from the panel, and instead add the Lancelot Menu plasmoid. Configure the Lancelot Menu plasmoid to present the "categories" (select from: applications, places, documents and contacts) as separate panel icons. The improvement is amazing.

Reply Score: 3

RE: ...
by Elv13 on Wed 5th Aug 2009 01:44 UTC in reply to "..."
Elv13 Member since:
2006-06-12

* No pdf previews in icons, like images do.
->It is disabled by default to preserve ressources, but you can check the checkbox if you want, it will "just work"
* No way to search for content, something like tracker.
->Strigi

0Digikam is not part of KDE, Gwenview is

Reply Score: 3

RE: ...
by superstoned on Wed 5th Aug 2009 09:30 UTC in reply to "..."
superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

The good:

* They finally focused in stability.
* The overal speed feels better.

The bad:
* Oxygen theme, matter of taste of course.

* The air circles in plasma theme, distracting.

Hmmm, I like it, and they're not that strong, but I guess you have a point there.

* Round borders in context menu, due to the Oxygen theme.


Yes, it is one of the area's where the oxygen team still wants to improve a bit. They just haven't gotten there yet.

* The font in the calendar is to huge.

In the Kontact calendar app or in the clock calendar? The clock one is SVG so it can be resized ;-)

* Some plasmoid still make plasma crash, sandboxing anyone?

You can't (easily) sandbox C++ widgets... The python, javascript etc widgets ARE sandboxed.

* Dolphin is slow some times.

Same here, I'm sure the dolphin devs would appreciate it if you could figure out WHEN exactly that happens, esp if you did some profiling so they could fix it.

* No pdf previews in icons, like images do.

configurable.

* To much focus in eye candy, but productivity apps. like mail and browser still lack behind.

You can't tell FOSS developers what to do. Still, I think it's not that bad - the artwork team does their thing, others don't do that much graphics. Our theme engine stuff (like in plasma) just allows a few ppl to do a lot of eyecandy ;-)

* No way to search for content, something like tracker.

Nepomuk is there, has been for a while. Should work just fine.

* The side bar in Okular, no way to deactivate it (but maybe im wrong).

Not sure if it can be deactivated entirely, but it can be collapsed.

* Digikam takes to much memory (80 megas w/o any picture), and it uses marble as a dependency still when many of us don't have any use for it, pluggins anyone?

I believe marble can be optional, not sure if packagers could take care of that or not.

* Many of the plasmoids are useless, just a few of them have a real porpose.

Yep. If you have ideas...

* KWin still is buggy and gets slow some times, driver issued? don't know, compiz has no problems.

KWin has far les hacks and workarounds for driver/X.org issues. We believe bugs should be fixed, not worked around.

* Separators in panels? not intuitive at all, could be a lot better.

Agreed. If you have a suggestion on how to do it properly I'm sure the plasma devs would be very interested in a concrete proposal. This isn't easy stuff you know!

Hopely all this points will be fixed, some are minors and some are not that minors.

Agreed.

Reply Score: 3

RE: ...
by eldarion on Wed 5th Aug 2009 18:06 UTC in reply to "..."
eldarion Member since:
2008-12-15

@Hiev

No pdf previews in icons, like images do.

That's strange..i have pdf previews. Open dolphin and select Settings->Configure Dolphin->General->Previews and check "Postscript, PDF and DVI files". You probably what to increase the "Maximum File Size" too.

The side bar in Okular, no way to deactivate it (but maybe im wrong).

Settings->Show Navigation Panel

Many of the plasmoids are useless, just a few of them have a real porpose.

That's not a plasmoid issue. Some people like widgets and some people don't. I don't like them and only use the "System Monitor" plasmoid sometimes.

Separators in panels? not intuitive at all, could be a lot better.

System Settings->Appearance->Style->Configure and unckeck "Draw toolbar item separators"

Overall i think kde 4.3 is not a huge improvement over kde 4.2.4. Some things were fixed, some usability was added but some things got worse. For example, on my system kde 4.3 takes more time to load (time between the splash screen and the desktop). Maybe it's a packaging issue and not a kde issue.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: ...
by Hiev on Wed 5th Aug 2009 18:55 UTC in reply to "RE: ..."
Hiev Member since:
2005-09-27

Separators in panels? not intuitive at all, could be a lot better.

I meant "spacers" and not "separators", my misstake.

Im no talking about the Okular navigation bar, but the options bar ("Content", "Thumbnails", "Review", etc).

Thx. for the other tips.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: ...
by Soulbender on Thu 6th Aug 2009 10:20 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: ..."
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Im no talking about the Okular navigation bar, but the options bar ("Content", "Thumbnails", "Review", etc
).


That is exactly what this hides. The side bar with "Content", "Thmbnails", "Review" in it. You can also press F7.

Reply Score: 3

RE: ...
by Soulbender on Fri 7th Aug 2009 03:51 UTC in reply to "..."
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

* No way to search for content, something like tracker.


Dolphin now has search field that does just that.

Reply Score: 3

KDE/OS
by adicahya on Wed 5th Aug 2009 01:23 UTC
adicahya
Member since:
2009-05-19

my first comment ever ;)

This week, i read article about the lack of distribution that fully implement the greatness of KDE. Then, that OpenSUSE issue.

To some level, i agree. Being KDE fans since Beta 4 (on Redhat 5.1), i've been having difficulties to find the implementation of KDE 4 that have a good "feel". Maybe this is why, many people still complaining about KDE 4.

Then..why you, the the good guys from KDE camp, don't try to build your own distribution. If you can bring this great product, im sure designing a new distribution is an achievable task.

Don't start from ground up.Take Ubuntu (i know, there is Kubuntu, but there are tons of Ubuntu with Gnome variant out there. So, its ok), or whatever you like.
Wrap the KDE 4 around it. Since you are the one that fully understand KDE potential, im sure you can implement it the right way.

And, please don't use any GTK based app,but only if you really have to.

Make it real.OpenSUSE community might even at your door right now ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE: KDE/OS
by superstoned on Wed 5th Aug 2009 09:31 UTC in reply to "KDE/OS"
superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

Problem with that is that it is a. far too much work and b. not our thing. Many KDE dev's do work on distro stuff, btw, like Kubuntu and OpenSuse.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: KDE/OS
by spikeb on Wed 5th Aug 2009 11:46 UTC in reply to "RE: KDE/OS"
spikeb Member since:
2006-01-18

if they do work on kubuntu, they need to do more - kubuntu is the worst KDE distro i've ever used, and not improving.

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: KDE/OS
by superstoned on Wed 5th Aug 2009 15:07 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: KDE/OS"
superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

The issue is that just keeping up with all the changes in the FOSS/linux software stack is a lot of work, and improving things is another hunk. They're just too much short on ppl and without commitment from Canonical (which invests 99% in Gnome despite having 30% KDE users) it's not gonna improve.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: KDE/OS
by molnarcs on Wed 5th Aug 2009 16:29 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: KDE/OS"
molnarcs Member since:
2005-09-10

So why not work with Mandriva - they really seem to be focused on KDE (not that they have a bad GNOME implementation - actually I've read shining reviews of Mandriva from GNOME users as well). I think I read somewhere that KDE is looking for a "shocase" distribution - if that's true, you need to find one that already has a good "baseline". As far as I know (and I have tested the big four - Kubuntu/OpenSuse/Mandriva/Fedora - Mandriva is by far the most polished of all, and they seem to help out with other parts of the KDE software stack (like porting K3B to QT4).

Reply Score: 4

RE[5]: KDE/OS
by superstoned on Wed 5th Aug 2009 19:18 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: KDE/OS"
superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

Aaah, Mandriva. Personally, I like what they do, altough they don't ship KDE vanilla (very very far from it, but the same goes for Suse) and their tools are GTK based. Problem is that Mandriva isn't one of the big boys, and has proven to be a bit unstable (as a company) in the past. And their software infrastructure simply can't hold the candle to the top-three (suse, debian/Ubuntu and Red Hat).

But I wouldn't be against it - it would just take some ppl to push it forward.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: KDE/OS
by molnarcs on Wed 5th Aug 2009 21:29 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: KDE/OS"
molnarcs Member since:
2005-09-10

Aaah, Mandriva. Personally, I like what they do, altough they don't ship KDE vanilla (very very far from it, but the same goes for Suse) and their tools are GTK based. Problem is that Mandriva isn't one of the big boys, and has proven to be a bit unstable (as a company) in the past. And their software infrastructure simply can't hold the candle to the top-three (suse, debian/Ubuntu and Red Hat).

But I wouldn't be against it - it would just take some ppl to push it forward.


I don't know what you mean by the infrastructure. As a user of both for some time (11.1 & 2009 spring) respectively in my experience Mandriva's infrastructure seemed to be better. I had constant timeouts with OpenSuse's mirrors (and I tried a dozen in the area - SE Asia btw), and urpmi seemed far more snappier than zypper.

Also, I think with the past few releases they are getting their focus back. It's true they have been unstable in the past as a company, but if you believe in KDE, if you believe that it can deliver on its promises - isn't Mandriva the best choice? Their size works in your favour, just think about it. If you want to get SuSE doing something, you have to deal with Novell plus all the internal politics of the project. Mandriva still has a good name in the linux market, and recently it had some really positive review. All it needs is a little nag in the right direction (and being smaller than the big three probably means that it could be more responsive).

Assuming you are a KDE developer, why try nudging the big ones, when it's far easier to get things done when you have to deal with fewer people, and with a project that seems to be already focusing on KDE with a recognizable brand name.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: KDE/OS
by superstoned on Thu 6th Aug 2009 07:34 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: KDE/OS"
superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

True, you make a few good points.

The infrastructure stuff I was talking about was about software. Yast is years ahead of many competing tools, esp for enterprise stuff. The availability of the opensuse build service and suse studio tells you something about what their underlying infrastructure can do. Novell and the other big boys also have much more resources to make a difference, Mandriva is much less capable of employing a bunch of people or sponsoring a lot of money to get something done. And Mandriva, while their desktop is KDE based, is more of a 'best of breed' distro than a pure KDE distro.

Still, as you said, it could be a more flexible company and very friendly towards us. I would however have no idea how to push it more - there aren't many KDE mandriva developers, and to change that things like like good and very up-to-date KDE (development) packages would be needed. A page like this: http://en.opensuse.org/KDE would make a big difference. Latest trunk snapshots, development packages, a simple 2-click installation for all -dev packages for all software on your system, such things make a big difference for developers.

Reply Score: 2

v Won't even try it...
by Jason Bourne on Wed 5th Aug 2009 01:28 UTC
RE: Won't even try it...
by lemur2 on Wed 5th Aug 2009 02:44 UTC in reply to "Won't even try it..."
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

I think this is already another messy attempt to emulate the upcoming release of Microsoft Windows 7. Everything Microsfot does, KDE tries to do in subtle ways.


KDE 4.3 is released now. Windows 7 isn't.

KDE 4 started its design before Vista was released.

If your suggestion that KDE 4 and Windows 7 are clones has any truth then I think you may be terribly confused as to which one is emulating which.

As to which is "messy" ... I'd personally give that crown to Windows 7, given the decisions made on UAC, whereas KDE 4.3 integrates very nicely with PolicyKit.

http://www.kde.org/announcements/4.3/
"The KDE Application Development Framework introduces a PolicyKit wrapper making it easy for developers who want their application to perform privileged actions in a secure, consistent and easy way. Provided are an authorization manager and an authentication agent, and an easy library for developers to use."

Reply Score: 11

v RE[2]: Won't even try it...
by sbergman27 on Wed 5th Aug 2009 03:22 UTC in reply to "RE: Won't even try it..."
RE[3]: Won't even try it...
by lemur2 on Wed 5th Aug 2009 03:38 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Won't even try it..."
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

"KDE 4.3 is released now. Windows 7 isn't.
Well... considering what's been passing for "releases" in the KDE world the last couple of years, I'm not sure that distinction is very meaningful. Windows 7 prereleases have been around for a while now. And while I'm certainly no fan of Microsoft, I do at least give them credit for having higher QA standards for release than KDE4 has seen. Even for Vista. "

What has that got to do with which is emulating which?

How can anyone conclude that the one which was started design earlier, and is released earlier, is an emulation of the Jhonny-yet-to-get-here?

"higher QA standards"? Windows? Surely you jest. All that I need to say to debunk that notion is "UAC, privelege escalation and MS internal applets". There are many other things that I could choose to say about that, but that one will suffice to illustrate the point.

Edited 2009-08-05 03:49 UTC

Reply Score: 2

v RE[2]: Won't even try it...
by dragossh on Wed 5th Aug 2009 03:35 UTC in reply to "RE: Won't even try it..."
RE[3]: Won't even try it...
by lemur2 on Wed 5th Aug 2009 03:42 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Won't even try it..."
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

"KDE 4.3 is released now. Windows 7 isn't.
And surprising enough, Windows 7 RC is more stable and faster than KDE4. "

Nope.

"KDE 4 started its design before Vista was released.
But not before Vista was designed ;) "

Debatable. Aero didn't appear in Vista design until late in the game (as MS was initially primarily concerned about things like DRM and WinFS, some of which still haven't appeared).

KDE isn't a complete OS it is just a desktop. It is the rough equivalent of Aero.

Oh, BTW ... are you saying that Windows 7 is the same design as Vista? Are you quite sure you want to say that?

Edited 2009-08-05 03:51 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Won't even try it...
by dragossh on Wed 5th Aug 2009 06:44 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Won't even try it..."
dragossh Member since:
2008-12-16

Nope.


In my own experience, it is ;)

Debatable. Aero didn't appear in Vista design until late in the game (as MS was initially primarily concerned about things like DRM and WinFS, some of which still haven't appeared).


Aero was demoed by MS in 2003. It didn't have transparencies and stuff, but it was there. I believe in 2004 I was playing with Aero on Longhorn 4074.

WinFS was scrapped and replaced with Windows Search.

KDE isn't a complete OS it is just a desktop. It is the rough equivalent of Aero.


Aero is a theme and a set of UI guidelines. KDE is akin to the userland of Windows.

Oh, BTW ... are you saying that Windows 7 is the same design as Vista? Are you quite sure you want to say that?


Yes. Windows 7 is based on Vista's technologies. What is wrong with that?

Just because Vista has a bad reputation it doesn't mean that the technologies in it are bad.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Won't even try it...
by superstoned on Wed 5th Aug 2009 10:38 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Won't even try it..."
superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

Aero was just a weak copy of what Mac OS X first introduced in 2000, and KWin follows Compiz and Mac in that regard. MS hasn't introduced anything useful with Aero yet so what is there to copy in the first place?

Same goes for the rest of Win vista and 7 - there is pretty much nothing unique in there that we could copy - actually, we have introduced things during 4.0 development which then showed up a short wile later in windows Vista builds... Can't find the example, it's on aseigo's blog somewhere. Everyone copies.

But we can do things they can never copy - like the social desktop stuff, get-hot-new-stuff, and our architecture (esp plasma) is years ahead of anything MS can even dream of.

And about the vague liking of the KDE 4.3 look with vista or win7 or any other OS out there - I know the ppl working on the look, and Nuno certainly hasn't used either win7 or vista, it's his own work. Then again, KDE has windows, icons and buttons - I'd say we're all still copying the Xerox interface.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Won't even try it...
by segedunum on Wed 5th Aug 2009 12:13 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Won't even try it..."
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

And surprising enough, Windows 7 RC is more stable and faster than KDE4.

Hmmmmm, and this would be after Microsoft went through a six/seven year alpha and beta cycle with Vista before they got to 7?

You people crack me up.

Reply Score: 3

Comment by Eddyspeeder
by Eddyspeeder on Wed 5th Aug 2009 13:22 UTC
Eddyspeeder
Member since:
2006-05-10

It is fantastic to see that the KDE project has such a tremendous pool of commits, and that major progress is being made.

All in all, it really was time for a "major announcement" on KDE, because lately I felt like every time KDE wagged its tail, OSNews reported it. All subversions, all betas, etc. etc.

March 3, 2009: 4.2.1
April 2, 2009: 4.2.2
May 8, 2009: 4.2.3
May 13, 2009: 4.3.0 Beta 1
June 11, 2009: 4.3.0 Beta 2
July 23, 2009: 4.3.0 RC1
July 27, 2009: 4.3.0 "shaping up"

Reply Score: 1

KDE 4 on my system
by asupcb on Wed 5th Aug 2009 15:58 UTC
asupcb
Member since:
2005-11-10

I have Ubuntu/Kubuntu 9.04 installed on my desktop system at home. It is a 7 year old desktop with a P4 2.26 with 768MB of RAM and a nVidia Ti4200 64MB and Kubuntu's KDE 4.2 works fine on it. I usually boot into GNOME because it is more polished at the moment compared to KDE (at least on Canonical's systems). Performance wise GNOME is a little snappier than KDE (LXDE is by far the quickest as it should be), but I don't seem to be having the same problems with KDE that others are reporting, although I did have them with both 4.0 and 4.1 so maybe I'm just lucky this go around.

Admittedly I just use Linux as a hobby OS and not for any serious work for which I use my Dell laptop running Vista. Of course my serious work is primarily Public Relations (word processing) and light web design (think Word Press and Joomla). I do use a lot of cross-platform open source software though, such as Audacity, Firefox, Open-Office and others. I'm waiting for KDE for Windows to improve a little more so that I can start playing with it more on my hobby box. It just seems like too much hassle at the moment when there is more I can learn about CSS, Javascript, and PHP.

Reply Score: 2

Stripes Killer
by xcorex on Wed 5th Aug 2009 16:45 UTC
xcorex
Member since:
2009-08-05

It is better, but, however, Stripes was the KDE4 worst mistake.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Stripes Killer
by adicahya on Thu 6th Aug 2009 02:57 UTC in reply to "Stripes Killer"
adicahya Member since:
2009-05-19

Agree..i suggest to drop the stripe.
Yeah, i know, we can easily make it gone. At least, make the clean design the default one, and the stripe as optional.

Today UI design is toward simplicity, transparent and soft gradient. KDE 4 did it, so why adding stripe?

If it is use to tell user which windows is active, you can do it by soften the tittle bar font color for example.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Stripes Killer
by superstoned on Thu 6th Aug 2009 14:27 UTC in reply to "RE: Stripes Killer"
superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

You can never please all. The stripes are added because so many people complained about the lack of a clear sign for the active window. OpenSuse actually colors the whole window decoration blue (no matter how horrible it looks). Yes, in terms of clean design, no stripes would be best. Even the thin line separating the window and the decoration could be removed - and the early mockups by Nuno show it that way.

But, even ignoring the complaints by users (and we don't like to ignore those), there are real usability issues with such a lack of visible signs for the active window.

So it became an option to have Stripes on the window decoration, which has been enabled by default. Feel free to tick the box next to 'show stripes next to title' in the windowmanagement config screen.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Stripes Killer
by Soulbender on Thu 6th Aug 2009 10:27 UTC in reply to "Stripes Killer"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

What "Stripe"?

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: Stripes Killer
by superstoned on Thu 6th Aug 2009 17:01 UTC in reply to "RE: Stripes Killer"
superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

from a comment above I gathered it points to the lines next to the title in the window decoration Oxygen.

Reply Score: 2

v Comment by Luminair
by Luminair on Thu 6th Aug 2009 04:53 UTC