In what some will undoubtedly call ironic, Microsoft has been declared guilty of wilfully infringing upon an XML patent held by the Canadian company i4i. The judge has ordered Microsoft to pay a fine of 290 million USD, and has barred Microsoft from selling Word in the United States if the company doesn't comply within 60 days (a detail omitted by many). Microsoft has already announced it will appeal the judge's decision.
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Member since:
2008-12-06
What an odd turn of events. I'm just trying to imagine a Word-less US. If the decision isn't appealed, this doesn't rule out future Word programs though, does it? Only 2003 and 2007? If it does rule out any Word program forevermore, businesses won't have much to turn to except for OpenOffice.org (which wouldn't be a bad thing, I suppose) aside from some other less-known proprietary programs.
I have to say-- that seems a bit harsh. Very surprising, too.
I bet it won't be hard for them to repeal the decision, though. At least for being able to still sell Word.
Member since:2006-09-26
Member since:2007-02-17
AFAIK, this patent applies to having the formatting codes separate from the text to be formatted. Microsoft Office and the OOXML formats do this extensively, using a feature Microsoft call "custom XML", but ODF does not. The formatting codes in ODF are unobscured and intertwined with the text element they apply to.
AFAIK, if OpenOffice.org wants to be certain that it did not infringe this patent, all that it would need to do is drop its .docx support.
Supporting reference:
http://www.groklaw.net/comment.php?mode=display&sid=200908121441548...
Edited 2009-08-12 23:50 UTC
Member since:2007-02-17
Here we go:
http://mashable.com/2009/08/12/word-patent/
Microsoft Corporation is hereby permanently enjoined from performing the following actions with Microsoft Word 2003, Microsoft Word 2007, and Microsoft Word products not more than colorably different from Microsoft Word 2003 or Microsoft Word 2007 (collectively “Infringing and Future Word Products”) during the term of U.S. Patent No. 5,787,449:
1. selling, offering to sell, and/or importing in or into the United States any
Infringing and Future Word Products that have the capability of opening a .XML,
.DOCX, or .DOCM file (“an XML file”) containing custom XML;
2. using any Infringing and Future Word Products to open an XML file
containing custom XML;
3. instructing or encouraging anyone to use any Infringing and Future Word
Products to open an XML file containing custom XML;
4. providing support or assistance to anyone that describes how to use any infringing and Future Word Products to open an XML file containing custom XML;
and
5. testing, demonstrating, or marketing the ability of the Infringing and Future
Word Products to open an XML file containing custom XML.
This injunction does not apply to any of the above actions wherein the Infringing and Future Word Products open an XML file as plain text.
My bold.
The OpenOffice.org format, known as ODF or OpenDocument, is indeed an XML format, but it does not use "custom XML" at all (I think it uses metadata tags instead to hold formatting info), so it would seem that ODF would not infringe on this patent, and OpenOffice.org would not be subject to a similar order.
Here is a question: What is the penalty to be applied to the ISO for approving a standard (ISO 29500) that violates another company's patent? ISO 29500 specifies custom XML, and custom XML is i4i's technology, according to this ruling. i4i never submitted their technology to ISO for inclusion in any standard. Can this decision now be used to get the ISO standard 29500 disapproved (as it always should have been)?
Edited 2009-08-13 02:45 UTC
Member since:2006-01-19
Member since:2007-11-03
Member since:2006-05-10
I'm internally divided over this matter. Frankly, Microsoft should know better and be more careful when it comes to matters like these. The gazillions of trials they had in which they ended up paying multi-million settlements for misconduct or infringement should have taught them that.
But a court ruling like that is just ridiculous. Is there really legislation allowing a judge to prohibit a company to sell or support their product (i.e., Office) altogether? Also, it's OFFICE(!); think of the economic damages, not only for Microsoft (which may end up outweighing the settlement), but for any company or individual around the globe using Office. That would mean that they, too, have effectively just a few days to completely transfer everything to OpenOffice. And as history has shown us; they won't.
Member since:2007-02-17
AFAIK, patent law does allow for exactly such an injunction to be imposed.
The fact that it is Microsoft Office isn't really relevant ... even Microsoft should be subject to the law, one would think. If there is a problem (which, granted, there does appear to be) ... then the law needs changing, not merely an exemption granted to Microsoft because they are Microsoft.
Since software is just maths, then a clause stipulating "No software patents" would seem to be a good ammendment to patent law that would solve this problem for everyone.
The true irony, for me, is that it is the "custom XML" features of the .docx formats that are AFAIK the very elements of OOXML via which Microsoft was hoping to keep its format lock-in.
Edited 2009-08-13 03:27 UTC
Member since:2005-07-11
It only affects the US, and it only affects Office 2003 and 2007, and it only affects future sales. All the installed copies will continue to work. And you can always use the .doc file format, as this only applies to the .docx file format.
If it is held up, then all MS has to do is release an update to Office 2003 and 2007 that removes the ability to save in .docx format, and sets the default file format back to .doc. And then start shipping Office 2007 with the same.
Member since:2005-07-24
Unless the product was purchased through Amazon, in which case the software will automatically delete itself after deleting all the of documents the user has created with it.
Member since:2007-02-17
Well, Microsoft could scrub up thier support for ODF, make it fully compliant with ODF 1.2, and use that as the default format, and retain the support for their legacy, binary formats, but drop all OOXML formats.
That way Microsoft could, AFAIK, avoid this patent and still sell Office. In one fell swoop, Microsoft would also rid themselves of accustaions from the EU of lack of interoperability.
Member since:
2008-07-15
While I hate patent trolls (and software patents altogether for that matter) and don't support them in any way, I must say the irony in this ruling is just too delicious. Still, even if it's Microsoft, I don't ever want a patent troll to succeed... so I guess, this one time, I'm on Microsoft's side. Wow, that feels weird to write that. Obviously the best thing would be the elimination of software patents altogether, but I don't see that happening especially in our corrupt legal system where money buys verdicts in the big cases.
Member since:2005-07-24
I'm not sure that I understand that reasoning. it's easier to purchase a law than it is to purchase a verdict. Microsoft was obviously not able to purchase the verdict that it wanted in this case. And few companies have the money and influence that Microsoft has. Best to see Microsoft hurt and hurt badly by the current laws in order to encourage them to buy us some new ones.
Edited 2009-08-12 18:49 UTC
Member since:2008-07-15
Well, I doubt Microsoft put a lot of effort into attempting to buy the verdict they want, I suspect they thought the ruling would be in their favor especially concerning a patent troll. I'd love to see Microsoft taken down, way down in fact, but I don't want abuse of the patent laws (well, anymore than already happens) to be silently encouraged by anyone. It's a bad, bad precedent to set, as if we start actually ruling in favor of the patent trolls we'll get an even more overstressed legal system, even more corruption, and no chance ever of getting any kind of relaxation on software patent laws as it'll be too much of a moneymaker for lawyers to allow it. Don't let your hatred of Microsoft cloud your judgement here, I'd rather have Microsoft get punished, but the ends do not always justify the means, and I think letting the patent trolls get a foothold is much worse.
Member since:2005-07-24
I find that assertion offensive. Although I suspect it was not intended to offend.
*Of course* the situation is unfair to Microsoft. Although I would not characterize this as an *abuse* of patent laws. I would characterize it as the enforcement of the current, very flawed system.
And the implications of this legal decision are even more dire for OSS than for Microsoft. All the more reason to want to have powerful players like Microsoft on *our* side during the coming battles.
Strange times make for strange bedfellows, indeed.
Member since:2008-07-15
You're right, it wasn't intended to be offensive, and I didn't aim it at you specifically either though it probably did look that way. Sorry about that. I said it, though, because I see it happen a lot whenever MIcrosoft and patents, or Microsoft and anything else, end up being discussed together--again, in general, not you specifically.
Member since:2009-05-19
Member since:2005-07-11
i4i isn't a patent troll, though, as they have been actively using, selling, and supporting the patented technology ever since the patent was approved.
Patent trolls are companies that don't ever use the patented technology in any way, and then just go after infringing companies, usually years after the infringing app has been released.
Member since:
2007-01-18
If we lived in a world where people payed attention to software this might frighten them into demanding a standardized open format that was not developed by Microsoft, but we don't. We live in a world where the said patent will be invalidated or if not Microsoft will find a work around that doesn't violate the patent. Either way Word and the .docx format will both continue.
What we really have here is apocalyptic story about how a dominate player is being brought down by the cracks in a system it has twisted for years. It's an awesome story for Hollywood, but in the end it's all just a bunch of money for lawyers and press for Microsoft.
Member since:2006-01-19
Microsoft will do something by far more lucrative for them.
They will just buy a patent license.
That will allow Microsoft to use docx in the future, but will deny open source competitors the capability to read/write it in the USA.
And as i4i is proovably independent of Microsoft, any patent lawsuits of i4i against a competitor will not hurt Microsoft's reputation.
Perfect lock-in, just as Microsoft always wanted.
Settling this, and thereby granting the patent itself an aura of validity is worth billions to Microsoft.
Member since:
2005-07-06
I am, not sure you guys are understanding what this means.
the patent in question covers what they call "metacode", the changing of text within an XML document.
OO.o, and all sorts of apps that uses XML for data storage, or config files (even OSX as Plists are XML)
would, down the road be effected. Microsoft will appeal, and if its held up XML will change or will die becuase of this.
-Nex6
Member since:2007-09-22
Quick let's rewrite everyting to use JSON. :-)
http://www.json.org/
Member since:2009-02-19
Member since:2006-11-19
Member since:2005-07-24
The fact of the matter is that i4i has a patent. That matter has already been decided by the experts at the USPTO. The court has decided that the patent applies in this case. The judge cannot go against the official determination of the experts, who have already conducted extensive investigation to exclude the possibility of extant prior art.
Now, the USPTO is one of those government organizations which is entirely self-supporting. Its revenue comes from the fees it charges the applicants. (And every USPTO employee's paycheck comes out of that.) Thus the applicants are their customers and sole source of revenue. So when you ask them to withdraw a patent, you are asking them to anger a customer. And if the customer happens to be a patent troll, you are asking them to anger a *regular* customer.
Yes, it stinks to high heavens. But that is the reality of the situation.
Edited 2009-08-12 22:14 UTC
Member since:2005-08-18
The...*experts*?? Thanks for making me start the day with a laugh.
Heh. A bit of a conflict of interest there though. Asking the experts to investigate if they themselves in fact did things right doesn't sound like a healthy practice.
Right, but that doesn't mean we should accept the situation.
Edited 2009-08-13 07:40 UTC
Member since:2005-11-11
You're really good at recognizing sarcasm
wow, sounds sort of like what the OP went on to say later in the same post!
Member since:2006-04-03
Agreed. This is just insane. Although I don't see any problem with the intention of patents as such it's the way they are awarded and enforced that's the issue. A patent should be able to be invalidated even after it's been awarded if it can be proved it's just something that has been a standard state of play anyway, or indeed should be transferred to another party if they can prove they were indeed the inventors of the method. But before it's even awarded the onus should be on the applicant to demonstrate that there is no "prior art" and they are indeed the inventors of the thing.
Although I don't know the full details of this patent it may even stretch to include such things as classic MacOS's resource / data fork model - which has been around since Adam was in shorts, and certainly would have huge implications on the use of XML. It would actually be good to see a number of the large players get together and support Microsoft on this one...
Member since:2007-02-17
No problem with that as long as they invalidate Microsot's own recently granted patent on long-standing and open XML technology as well while they are at it.
Member since:2006-02-06
As much as I want to agree here, one problem persists:
How does one even begin trying to "prove there's no prior art"?
I mean, except with the option of 'reductio ad absurdum', which is not quite useable in this matter, is there any other way to effectively prove that something does NOT exist?
Member since:
2006-03-29
Member since:
2005-07-27
... where we know not the blissful pleasures of software patents.
Actually, I'm slightly sceptical of patents in general - but software patents, with its ability to stiffle innovation and raise barriers to entry unfairly and arbitrarily, is probably the worst. Maybe after pharmaceutical patents.
Member since:
2005-06-29
What about this patent is supposed to be non-obvious? It seems to consist only of some set-oriented structure of <attribute, dataReference> with the "raw" data stored separately. This is basically an index-type structure, where the attribute can be anything one wishes to associate with the data indirectly locatable by the dataReference.
One example of this, very close to to idea of "format" and "text" that I'm familiar with is the Chemical Abstracts Service (CAS) Standard File Format, which was first published in 197l:
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?arnumber=1671672
Given that one other view of this would be index types -- from those in memory to those in DBMSs, I don't understand what isn't particularly obvious about this.
Member since:
2005-07-06
Member since:
2008-04-10
A brilliant change to the system would be if the attacking company (the one claiming to hold a patent that has been infringed) must prove they compete in the same consumer space. Take, for example, that company that sued Nintendo because the Wii remote is a lot like their pointing devices. Under this rule, that would have been a non-case because the attacking company does not cater to the gaming console market, and Nintendo don't officially support using the Wii remote for anything else (though it is possible). Does the attacking company in this case also provide word processing software for the same consumer space as Microsoft?
Member since:
2005-07-12
i4i don't appear to be patent trolls to me. They actually have several products regarding document management and conversion that appear popular in the pharmaceuticals industry.
They have software that works from within Word to create and use XML document templates.
Microsoft using those patented features in Word means two things:
1) Microsoft is now a competitor to this small company.
2) Microsoft is using patented technology that this small company created to compete with them.
Microsoft was also awarded the same patent this very week, but i4i filed for theirs 6 months before Microsoft filed.
Member since:2005-07-06
They have software that works from within Word to create and use XML document templates.
Fairly sure I read something a while back about i4i approaching Microsoft with XML processing technology (I assume for product licensing) and they claimed that MS took the idea and built it straight into Office.
This is more about i4i keeping Microsoft from stealing their business. I4i have large government contracts already, but with most governments having MS agreements (cheap multiseat licensing), their product is unfortunately in a position where its extra expense.
Seems a bit sad that we’re soo focused on patent trolling we don’t actually notice real cases where a company has wilfully, and totally to character, taken a methodology of someone elses.
nb: not a patent fan.
Member since:2005-07-06
I wouldn't be surprised in the least, I still remember the Burst.com case:
http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/2002/pulpit_20020620_000736.html
http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/2003/pulpit_20030828_000447.html
They used to do this sort of tricks in the past, it took a lot of litigation and losing the antitrust suit to sort of mend their ways.
Rehdon
Member since:
2005-07-06
Member since:2007-02-17
CSS would be prior art.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Css#History
Member since:
2007-02-17
PJ's take (of groklaw fame):
http://www.groklaw.net/
More here:
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20090812144154814
FOSS has been taking the lead in trying to educate the world that patents are toxic for software. They disrupt and they block innovation. Software and patents need to get a divorce. You might like to read Red Hat's amicus brief that it submitted in the Bilski case to see why software patents are particularly destructive to the FOSS development model.
As for Microsoft's recent effort to define "open standards" to, as Dana Blankenhorn describes it, "mandate standards bodies to consider patented, protected, proprietary technology on a par with truly open source offerings", what has just happened to the XML standard gives what I consider the absolutely final and complete answer to such a specious argument. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I present Exhibit A. It's not open if a judge can shut it down. Or a vendor. Is that hard?
Here is what PJ is talking about:
http://blogs.zdnet.com/open-source/?p=4623
Karma indeed.
Edited 2009-08-13 03:49 UTC
Member since:
2005-11-21
http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT5787449
Download the PDF and read it. It's quite astonishing that they got this Patent while they cite SGML predating exactly what they patented.
Seriously, this is a crock.
SUMMARY OF THE INVENTION lists it intent.
Member since:2007-02-17
And how exactly is this patent:
http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9595_22-329645.html
(which Microsoft obtained too late) any different?
How is Microsoft's attempt to patent everyone else out of being able to use XML any less of a crock than i4i's prior patent?
Karma.
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=define%3A+karma&meta=&a...
Irony: If Microsoft manage somehow to invalidate i4i's patent, then they will probably also invalidate their own recently-granted XML patent by the same argument.
Sweet.
Edited 2009-08-13 04:49 UTC
Member since:
2007-07-14
Member since:
2005-11-11