Linked by Thom Holwerda on Fri 11th Dec 2009 21:59 UTC, submitted by Michael
Linux After Linus began criticizing Red Hat over not upstreaming the Nouveau driver and Red Hat then attributing this on microcode issues less than a day ago, David Airlie has prepared a patch to introduce the Nouveau DRM in the Linux 2.6.33 kernel. This free software NVIDIA driver will finally be entering the mainline Linux kernel.
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It MIGHT
by kragil on Fri 11th Dec 2009 23:09 UTC
kragil
Member since:
2006-01-04

http://lwn.net/Articles/366225/

Nothing is final yet.

Reply Score: 2

RE: It MIGHT
by diegocg on Fri 11th Dec 2009 23:44 UTC in reply to "It MIGHT"
diegocg Member since:
2005-07-08

It is, it has been merged http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux-2.6.git;a=...

Edited 2009-12-11 23:44 UTC

Reply Score: 3

Too bad it doesn't work for me
by bosco_bearbank on Fri 11th Dec 2009 23:52 UTC
bosco_bearbank
Member since:
2005-10-12

Guess I'll stick with the non-free nvidia driver for now

Reply Score: 1

RE: Too bad it doesn't work for me
by Rahul on Sat 12th Dec 2009 01:06 UTC in reply to "Too bad it doesn't work for me"
Rahul Member since:
2005-07-06

It's used by Fedora for the last couple of releases in place of Nv driver and we have gotten very good feedback in general and features are way ahead, including support for kernel mode setting which even the proprietary driver doesn't support. I recommend filing bug reports on problems. In my experience, they have been quickly followed up with fixes.

Reply Score: 4

Rahul Member since:
2005-07-06

I will ignore you since you often misrepresent facts and just troll. I haven't ignored anyone who gave specific feedback. I said, we have in general received very positive feedback and that is absolutely true.

Edited 2009-12-12 01:44 UTC

Reply Score: 2

sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

Oh, I haven't retried Fedora since we talked about it black-screening on installation last week or so. An observation with I made about F12 which you, as per your usual poclicy, tried to deflect with claims that I was just lying, etc.

It's not working for Bosco, and you simply claim that Nouveau works.

Why has Fedora been so keen on shipping it while withholding it from the mainline kernel, anyway? Linus certainly seems disaproving of Fedora's behavior in the matter? Looks like it has now been merged. But Linus's statement was this:

"I've heard all the excuses. If it isn't ready, they shouldn't ship it to millions of people. And if it's ready, they should work on merging it."

Is it ready? Or now that you've been shipping it to millions of people, was merging the only PR accectable option that Red Had Legal would approve?

Edited 2009-12-12 01:57 UTC

Reply Score: 4

Rahul Member since:
2005-07-06

"Oh, I haven't retried Fedora since we talked about it black-screening on installation last week or so. A observation with I made about F12 which you, as per your usual poclicy, tried to deflect with claims that I was just lying, etc."

Nope. I asked for more hardware information which you refused to provide.

"It's not working for Bosco, and you simply claim that Nouveau works"

Nope. Didn't claim it worked for everyone.

Linus's question was clearly answered by Dave Airlie from Red Hat and Alan Cox. Perhaps you missed the latter parts of the thread. Feel free to continue reading.

Edited 2009-12-12 02:02 UTC

Reply Score: 2

sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

Whatever, Rahul. And for someone who claims to be ignoring me as often as you do, we certainly generate some long back-and-forth threads. :-)

Reply Score: 0

Rahul Member since:
2005-07-06

Your comment happened to be directly addressed at me and I responded to it. Factual corrections shall still be made from time to time.

Reply Score: 4

segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Oh, I haven't retried Fedora since we talked about it black-screening on installation last week or so.

For someone who has repeatedly said that he's left Fedora behind for Ubuntu on many occasions, you talk about Fedora a hell of a lot.

But Linus's statement was this: "I've heard all the excuses. If it isn't ready, they shouldn't ship it to millions of people. And if it's ready, they should work on merging it."

Pot kettle black. Linus is right to give them a kick, but there are a few other distributions you can easily apply that maxim to several times over.

Quite frankly, and Linux distribution is at all perfect IMO, it's just nice that Red Hat is actually writing code so they can be criticised for not merging it. I suppose if you don't write any then you can avoid that. :-)

Reply Score: 6

bosco_bearbank Member since:
2005-10-12

Bug reports have been filed. Will give nouveau a try again when the F13 alpha livecd shows up.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Too bad it doesn't work for me
by lemur2 on Sat 12th Dec 2009 09:39 UTC in reply to "Too bad it doesn't work for me"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

Too bad it doesn't work for me

Guess I'll stick with the non-free nvidia driver for now


As an experiment, I have downloaded Kubuntu 10.4 Alpha 1. As you might expect, it is buggy ... but not so buggy that it prevents me from posting this while running it. Kubuntu 10.4 Alpha 1 features the 2.6.32 kernel, which has the open source 3D drivers for ATI.

http://distrowatch.com/?newsid=05813

At first, it didn't work for me. Bummer.

However I enabled the xorg-edgers ppa for lucid using this repository information:
deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/xorg-edgers/ppa/ubuntu lucid main

then I did an "sudo aptitude upgrade" and now it works. Hooray for the good guys.

$ glxgears
IRQ's not enabled, falling back to busy waits: 2 0
*********************************WARN_ONCE**************************** *****
File r700_render.c function r700TryDrawPrims line 955
Rendering was 3 commands larger than predicted size. We might overflow command buffer.
********************************************************************** *****
4894 frames in 5.0 seconds = 978.756 FPS
5067 frames in 5.0 seconds = 1013.299 FPS
5069 frames in 5.0 seconds = 1013.685 FPS
5070 frames in 5.0 seconds = 1013.906 FPS
5066 frames in 5.0 seconds = 1013.166 FPS


OK, so it is still raw, but nevertheless I do I have an open source 3D graphics drivers running for my ATI card.

Kubuntu itself really flies on this machine now.

Sadly, kwin (in KDE 4.4 beta) as yet doesn't seem to realise that there is a 3D graphics driver running. I have not yet got a composited desktop. Apparently, though, compiz is said to work OK. So I think I might be looking into running KDE with compiz instead of kwin for the moment, right after I file some bug reports.

Edited 2009-12-12 09:57 UTC

Reply Score: 2

Elv13 Member since:
2006-06-12

Turn on "disable compatibility check"
in kwin config.

Reply Score: 1

lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

Turn on "disable compatibility check"
in kwin config.


Tried that. No go.

Reply Score: 2

lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

"Turn on "disable compatibility check"
in kwin config.


Tried that. No go.
"

Updated today ... improved drivers, new pieces of xorg, new version of kwin, but still no composited desktop.

Close, but no cigar yet.

Reply Score: 2

Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Don't we all just love backseat drivers.

Reply Score: 3

Comment by cerbie
by cerbie on Sat 12th Dec 2009 04:26 UTC
cerbie
Member since:
2006-01-02

Now if we could just get X replaced, we'd be set (vsync, FI, should be a core feature, not a feature of a handful of drivers, and mplayer should not be able to lock up the entire X server). I love Linux, but Xorg is worse than ALSA. Maybe one day the entire display subsystem will be implemented in a fast, stable manner inside the kernel...

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by cerbie
by Elv13 on Sat 12th Dec 2009 05:08 UTC in reply to "Comment by cerbie"
Elv13 Member since:
2006-06-12

Well, X is powerful. Its slow an imperfect, but I love the client/server side of it. The ability to show windows on different computer with only DISPLAY=192.168... or SSH -Y is great. It make it easy to do cool things with multiple computer. Managing an headless server without full remote desktop like RDP or VNC is terrible in windows, but in *nix using X (not OSX), its just so great.

X is not the worst Linux feature, ALSA/Pulse combo are. X is just out of context for gaming and playing movies. It show is true strength only when you push it to the limit.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Comment by cerbie
by cerbie on Sat 12th Dec 2009 11:24 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by cerbie"
cerbie Member since:
2006-01-02

Yeah, but Pulse makes ALSA not fail, and I can go to OSS4 if I really want to. If I moved to FreeBSD, 90% of Xorg/Xfree will be the same.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Comment by cerbie
by nt_jerkface on Sun 13th Dec 2009 21:58 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by cerbie"
nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26

The ability to show windows on different computer with only DISPLAY=192.168... or SSH -Y is great. It make it easy to do cool things with multiple computer. Managing an headless server without full remote desktop like RDP or VNC is terrible in windows, but in *nix using X (not OSX), its just so great. X is not the worst Linux feature, ALSA/Pulse combo are.

What exactly are you saying here? What is wrong with RDP? It's easy to setup, encrypted and can connect to Server core. But there are other ways to connect if you don't want to use it.

OSX has ssh built in. Connecting to a headless mac is easy.

It seems like you are trying to think of problems that don’t exist in Windows/OSX to make X look better.



X is just out of context for gaming and playing movies. It show is true strength only when you push it to the limit.

You mean the consumer context where it is used 99% of the time? A powerful graphics system can play videos and provide remote connections with ease. That isn't X.

Sound in Linux isn't a technical problem, it's political. Too many cooks in the kitchen.

X-Windows on the other hand needs to be redesigned from the ground up based on the typical needs of users.

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: Comment by cerbie
by cerbie on Mon 14th Dec 2009 06:33 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by cerbie"
cerbie Member since:
2006-01-02

Xorg/Xfree is also political. YWindows looked cool, and Wayland would have been a great core to work from. Have an X API layer on top, and go on from there.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by cerbie
by Lennie on Sat 12th Dec 2009 05:25 UTC in reply to "Comment by cerbie"
Lennie Member since:
2007-09-22

X doesn't need to be slow.

For example, what version of Google Chrome is the fastest version ? The Linux version is faster then Mac OS X and Windows. They found part of the reason was X was better suited.

http://groups.google.com/group/chromium-dev/browse_thread/thread/d8...

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: Comment by cerbie
by cerbie on Sat 12th Dec 2009 11:46 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by cerbie"
cerbie Member since:
2006-01-02

I didn't say X was slow. Where it has been slow, that's being dealt with quite well (XCB, FI). I generally haven't found the speed of X to be an issue on any system I've used, unless I get stuck with a VESA driver, which hasn't been the case for a long time (the worst case is usually fbdev, which is pretty good).

Any display system needs at least two, and sometimes three buffers, where after a buffer is written to, it is displayed upon the next screen refresh, so that partial draws do not create obvious and annoying tearing artifacts. As it is, you can only be reasonably assured that can work with Intel or nVidia under X. IoW, proper vsync should be a core feature, that just works, unless specifically turned off. I just said that in a shorter way ;) . Instead, I can run Compiz on an old PC, but not play back a DVD w/o tearing. Much like gapless audio playback taking so long to become common, I see it as a regression, and lots of, "oh, shiny!" going on.

Also, I was in an, "eh, it'll be OK if it becomes flame bait," mood ;) .

Edited 2009-12-12 11:47 UTC

Reply Score: 2

nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26

Just look at this bug:

Xorg crashing after identifying a mouse as a keyboard
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=479122

A windowing system should not blow up if it is confused by what is plugged in. It should simply wait for input that it understands.

Bugs like these make me very leery of the X codebase. I can post some more bugs of X freaking out over input devices if anyone would like.

Reply Score: 6

boldingd Member since:
2009-02-19

Oh noes, a bug: surely no other software platforms have those.

I think I can predict what your response to this is going to be, but, X has been making very good progress over the last few years. It's come a long way from a bad state. Sure there's road left to travel, but it is moving forward, and at a decent clip. The X server's gotten a lot, a lot smarter about auto-configuring itself, about re-configuring itself when things change, and about surviving problems. It's improved to the point where Slackware, an extremely conservative distro by any measure, ships without an xorg.conf file, and just trusts the X Server to be able to sort everything out when it starts up -- and that actually works.

X is still a weak-point in most Linux distros, but it's improved dramatically over where it was, say, four years ago. It's almost on par with the experiences I've had with Vista's own graphics layer (which has provided me with some spectacular, random crashes -- like, trying to cancel a stalled file copy to a USB drive bringing down the whole Vista shell). Calling for the whole thing to be thrown out might've been appropriate four years ago -- but not now. There's nothing inherently wrong with X's design, it's code-quality problems are being resolved, and it's picking up the new features that it needs too, if not incredibly quickly.

So... if the Linux Hater's Club could get some more modern talking points, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Reply Score: 3

cb_osn Member since:
2006-02-26

X is still a weak-point in most Linux distros, but it's improved dramatically over where it was, say, four years ago. It's almost on par with the experiences I've had with Vista's own graphics layer (which has provided me with some spectacular, random crashes -- like, trying to cancel a stalled file copy to a USB drive bringing down the whole Vista shell). Calling for the whole thing to be thrown out might've been appropriate four years ago -- but not now. There's nothing inherently wrong with X's design, it's code-quality problems are being resolved, and it's picking up the new features that it needs too, if not incredibly quickly.

Xorg is a best of breed X11 implementation. I don't think anyone who criticizes it would argue that. The problem is that the graphics stack is irrevocably wedded to a window server/network protocol. It makes about as much sense as coupling the physical and logical storage layers to the NFS protocol. Anyone who suggested that would be considered insane, yet the same exact design lives on and is even defended in the case of Xorg.

So... if the Linux Hater's Club could get some more modern talking points, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Keep in mind that not all of us who criticize X do so because we hate Linux. Personally, I'd love to see the Linux graphics situation improve and I have the knowledge, experience, and motivation to contribute to it. But as long as the powers that be are backed by the community and continue down a path that I consider to be a dead end, I can't justify committing my time. The tragic part is that I'm sure there are many others just like me.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by cerbie
by demetrioussharpe on Sun 13th Dec 2009 01:24 UTC in reply to "Comment by cerbie"
demetrioussharpe Member since:
2009-01-09

Now if we could just get X replaced, we'd be set (vsync, FI, should be a core feature, not a feature of a handful of drivers, and mplayer should not be able to lock up the entire X server). I love Linux, but Xorg is worse than ALSA. Maybe one day the entire display subsystem will be implemented in a fast, stable manner inside the kernel...


If you truly don't like XWindows, then you can always pick up where the YWindows group left off. It's still open source & it's stalled, so it's just sitting there waiting for some motivated person to pick it up, dust it off, & polish it up.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Comment by cerbie
by Zifre on Sun 13th Dec 2009 15:10 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by cerbie"
Zifre Member since:
2009-10-04

Umm... it has absolutely no 3d drivers. And it has a horrible design. Wayland would be a much better choice.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Comment by cerbie
by sbergman27 on Sun 13th Dec 2009 17:12 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by cerbie"
sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

Umm... it has absolutely no 3d drivers. And it has a horrible design. Wayland would be a much better choice.

So implement the infrastructure for it. If it weren't for our fascination with reinventing the wheel, where would open source be today? Oh yeah... a lot further along than we are. ;-)

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by cerbie
by neticspace on Tue 15th Dec 2009 06:38 UTC in reply to "Comment by cerbie"
neticspace Member since:
2009-06-09

(sorry if I offended anyone)

I like the idea of removing X windowing system for Linux because it seems that the sudden popularity of Linux degraded the quality of X.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Comment by cerbie
by hussam on Tue 15th Dec 2009 13:39 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by cerbie"
hussam Member since:
2006-08-17

(sorry if I offended anyone)

I like the idea of removing X windowing system for Linux because it seems that the sudden popularity of Linux degraded the quality of X.

Sudden popularity of Linux did not degrade the quality of X but it is moving things against what might have been considered the linux community ideals a few years ago.
gnome-shell for example is a direct result of the sudden popularity of Linux. It obsoletes certain graphic cards that cannot do desktop compositing and it makes sure of JS in a desktop application something we wouldn't have accepted a few years ago (many still won't today).

Reply Score: 1

Great news
by 3rdalbum on Sat 12th Dec 2009 08:11 UTC
3rdalbum
Member since:
2008-05-26

Hopefully this means that Nouveau will get more bug reports and more love if people are "forced" to use it by default.

Reply Score: 2

It is great...
by reez on Sun 13th Dec 2009 13:49 UTC
reez
Member since:
2006-06-28

It is great, what the community has done.
And bad that the NVIDIA guys didn't do it, like the ATI people, which commit to the X.org project.

Reply Score: 1

RE: It is great...
by sbergman27 on Sun 13th Dec 2009 14:10 UTC in reply to "It is great..."
sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

It is great, what the community has done.

All this excitement over a 2d driver makes me feel like it's 1996 again.

Edited 2009-12-13 14:10 UTC

Reply Score: 5

For what fun?
by harsha.reddy on Mon 14th Dec 2009 02:22 UTC
harsha.reddy
Member since:
2007-02-20

Are Redhats puppets? It should be there wish what to include and what not to... that how one distro of linux differs from to others....

Reply Score: 1