Linked by Thom Holwerda on Tue 9th Feb 2010 19:06 UTC, submitted by diegocg
KDE And there we are, the KDE team has released KDE Software Compilation 4.4, formerly known as, well, KDE. Major new features include social networking and online collaboration integration, the new netbook interface, the KAuth authentication framework, and a lot more.
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thank you!
by poundsmack on Tue 9th Feb 2010 19:36 UTC
poundsmack
Member since:
2005-07-13

This is a phenomenal release. thank you KDE team. also, the netbook interface is very nice in this release, fast and polished.

Reply Score: 6

RE: thank you!
by sakeniwefu on Thu 11th Feb 2010 13:33 UTC in reply to "thank you!"
sakeniwefu Member since:
2008-02-26

KDE is getting to be quite good.

It is stable and responsive, and that matters to me.
Recent versions don't really look any worse than Mac OS X either if you care about that. IMO, after playing a bit with a Mac, it seems obvious that both KDE and Gnome are heavily inspired on Mac OS(The stupid control panel for example).

But while Gnome, well, is Gnome, the latest KDE does a better job in keeping the useless eye-candy from affecting usability negatively.

Now C++ and very few not quite excellent apps and applets are the only items remaining on my minus list.

If I had to recommend a Linux Desktop, without any doubt, it would have to be a KDE distribution.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: thank you!
by GiantTalkingCow on Sat 13th Feb 2010 18:04 UTC in reply to "RE: thank you!"
GiantTalkingCow Member since:
2009-01-27

Don't look any worse than OS X? Well, yes and no. Certainly, KDE 4.4 is up to par when it comes to themes (Oxygen has really matured into something attractive and unobtrusive) and catching up fast when it comes to desktop effects (the timing seems just a bit off, still), but when it comes to icons, layout, and especially default fonts and spacing, it needs a lot of work. Sane and attractive defaults matter quite a bit, especially when a user's not able or willing to root around in the various config dialogues to tweak them.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: thank you!
by sakeniwefu on Sun 14th Feb 2010 14:58 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: thank you!"
sakeniwefu Member since:
2008-02-26

Do the better fonts and spacing even exist in a way that can be used by KDE(copyright and patent free)?

Frankly, I don't think default fonts and spacing are that bad. They may lose in a side by side comparison but I doubt most people can tell a "perfect" font from a "a bit off" one when actually using the software.

They are not like the fonts distros were using a few years ago.

Reply Score: 2

Plasma Netbook Interface
by DevL on Tue 9th Feb 2010 19:52 UTC
DevL
Member since:
2005-07-06

A major "problem" with eralier versions of KDE was the fact that it was waaaaay too much screen estate swalllowed to be usable on 1024x600 screens. It'll be interesting to see how this new Netbook Interface handles it.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Plasma Netbook Interface
by agnus on Fri 12th Feb 2010 11:42 UTC in reply to "Plasma Netbook Interface"
agnus Member since:
2006-05-10

That is not true! I have been using Kubuntu on my 1024x600 AspireOne netbook since 9.04. As a matter of fact the KDE 4 taskbar uses the smallest vertical space compared to Gnome or Windows. Additionally the KDE windows in general use less whitespace than Gnome.

Reply Score: 2

It's a tie!
by fretinator on Tue 9th Feb 2010 20:08 UTC
fretinator
Member since:
2005-07-06

Poor naming:

1. Enhanced Interrogation Techniques
2. KDE Software Compilation

I think it is a tie.

Reply Score: 3

RE: It's a tie!
by superstoned on Sun 14th Feb 2010 08:44 UTC in reply to "It's a tie!"
superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

It's not a name, it's a description, what KDE releases is a collection of applications & stuff. As in time stuff now in there might not be released on the same day, we didn't give it a special, sexy name...

Reply Score: 2

I can now see paying for this.
by jboss1995 on Tue 9th Feb 2010 20:09 UTC
jboss1995
Member since:
2007-05-02

I have used Linux and bsd for 10 + years now. I have always felt like it was worthy of being sold in stores like windows and osx. But this release is now to the point I can now see other people feeling the same. This is now a viable alternative to windows and osx. With the progress of Wine, there will be no stopping Linux and KDE.

Reply Score: 5

boulabiar Member since:
2009-04-18

You have forgotten the hell of what is X.org

X is the worse thing in any Linux system.

Kernel development is veeeery fast.
KDE development is very fast

but the problem is in between : X


Being based on the Qt4.6 version, and having optimization is the most important thing.
I wish I have better performance and responsiveness in low end hardware with very small amount of RAM and CPU.

Reply Score: 4

diegocg Member since:
2005-07-08

Most of the real problems these days are being worked on in the DRM/Gallium3D repositories.

Reply Score: 4

qbast Member since:
2010-02-08

Just like we heard before that all problems will be fixed by EXA, GEM and DRI2.

Reply Score: 2

KAMiKAZOW Member since:
2005-07-06

Just like we heard before that all problems will be fixed by EXA, GEM and DRI2.

While not "fixing everything", those technologies improved Xorg big time.

Reply Score: 6

boldingd Member since:
2009-02-19

That is entirely true - at least, if you use one of the open-source drivers. If you do, modern X is actually quite nice. It does a pretty good job configuring itself, and you can re-configure it on the fly: mucking about with xorg.conf usually isn't necessary. In fact, many modern distributions no longer include xorg.conf files - for example, Sidux Linux 2009.4 and Slackware 13 don't.

The biggest problem right now is simply the limited nature of the open-source drivers: they don't provide full functionality on many platforms, requiring use of the closed drivers - which are not nearly so well integrated with X, don't support many of it's shiney-and-new features, and aren't as stable.

I installed Sidux Linux at work recently. Out of the box, it used a newer X. It had no xorg.conf file. It came up flawlessly, recognized both my monitors, etc. Except... for whatever reason, the open-source NV driver appears to allow the multiple desktops of a dual-head system to have a total area of all of 1280x1280. And, apparently, GLX was using MESA (in software). To get real hardware-accelerated rendering, not to mention to be able to use my dual-head system at a higher resolution than 640x480 a piece, I had to install the proprietary nvidia driver. This was... not nearly so pleasant an experience. Hello (creating and) manually editing an xorg.conf file, and spending several hours on cryptic X errors.

But the difficulty in using the closed drivers isn't really the fault of X's maintainers, and will be less and less of a concern as the open drivers improve. The X experience is generally pretty good on platforms that the open drivers support, and that list is growing.

Reply Score: 6

lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

That is entirely true - at least, if you use one of the open-source drivers. If you do, modern X is actually quite nice. It does a pretty good job configuring itself, and you can re-configure it on the fly: mucking about with xorg.conf usually isn't necessary. In fact, many modern distributions no longer include xorg.conf files - for example, Sidux Linux 2009.4 and Slackware 13 don't. The biggest problem right now is simply the limited nature of the open-source drivers: they don't provide full functionality on many platforms, requiring use of the closed drivers - which are not nearly so well integrated with X, don't support many of it's shiney-and-new features, and aren't as stable. I installed Sidux Linux at work recently. Out of the box, it used a newer X. It had no xorg.conf file. It came up flawlessly, recognized both my monitors, etc. Except... for whatever reason, the open-source NV driver appears to allow the multiple desktops of a dual-head system to have a total area of all of 1280x1280. And, apparently, GLX was using MESA (in software). To get real hardware-accelerated rendering, not to mention to be able to use my dual-head system at a higher resolution than 640x480 a piece, I had to install the proprietary nvidia driver. This was... not nearly so pleasant an experience. Hello (creating and) manually editing an xorg.conf file, and spending several hours on cryptic X errors. But the difficulty in using the closed drivers isn't really the fault of X's maintainers, and will be less and less of a concern as the open drivers improve. The X experience is generally pretty good on platforms that the open drivers support, and that list is growing.


My Arch Linux system has a low-end ATI graphics card. Arch Linux has kernel 2.6.32, so that the new open source xf86-video-ati driver is included. With my card, this driver installs and configures automatically, out of the box, with 3D hardware-accelerated compositing automatically enabled. Mesa is not rendered in software but in hardware, all of the Kwin effects work straight away, and the desktop is very fast.

Xorg is fine with the right drivers.

Reply Score: 3

boldingd Member since:
2009-02-19

That's... what I was trying to say. The second half of the post was, in short form, "the wrong drivers are the proprietary ones, which, sometimes you have to use, and that sucks." But I agree with you completely: when you can use the right drivers, X is wonderful.

Edited 2010-02-10 02:17 UTC

Reply Score: 2

rockmen1 Member since:
2006-02-04

"That is entirely true - at least, if you use one of the open-source drivers. If you do, modern X is actually quite nice. It does a pretty good job configuring itself, and you can re-configure it on the fly: mucking about with xorg.conf usually isn't necessary. In fact, many modern distributions no longer include xorg.conf files - for example, Sidux Linux 2009.4 and Slackware 13 don't. The biggest problem right now is simply the limited nature of the open-source drivers: they don't provide full functionality on many platforms, requiring use of the closed drivers - which are not nearly so well integrated with X, don't support many of it's shiney-and-new features, and aren't as stable. I installed Sidux Linux at work recently. Out of the box, it used a newer X. It had no xorg.conf file. It came up flawlessly, recognized both my monitors, etc. Except... for whatever reason, the open-source NV driver appears to allow the multiple desktops of a dual-head system to have a total area of all of 1280x1280. And, apparently, GLX was using MESA (in software). To get real hardware-accelerated rendering, not to mention to be able to use my dual-head system at a higher resolution than 640x480 a piece, I had to install the proprietary nvidia driver. This was... not nearly so pleasant an experience. Hello (creating and) manually editing an xorg.conf file, and spending several hours on cryptic X errors. But the difficulty in using the closed drivers isn't really the fault of X's maintainers, and will be less and less of a concern as the open drivers improve. The X experience is generally pretty good on platforms that the open drivers support, and that list is growing.


My Arch Linux system has a low-end ATI graphics card. Arch Linux has kernel 2.6.32, so that the new open source xf86-video-ati driver is included. With my card, this driver installs and configures automatically, out of the box, with 3D hardware-accelerated compositing automatically enabled. Mesa is not rendered in software but in hardware, all of the Kwin effects work straight away, and the desktop is very fast.

Xorg is fine with the right drivers.
"

"Fine" is far from great. I got compile 2.6.33 kms + mesa 7.7, with HD4770, the frame rate of kwin desktop effect dropped significantly when 6+ windows are opened.
Top cmd shows X of a 50% CPU usage with E5200, compare to my Mac and WIN7 of only 20% even when dragging a window around.
There are much place for X to improve.

Reply Score: 1

Zifre Member since:
2009-10-04

I installed Sidux Linux at work recently. Out of the box, it used a newer X. It had no xorg.conf file. It came up flawlessly, recognized both my monitors, etc. Except... for whatever reason, the open-source NV driver appears to allow the multiple desktops of a dual-head system to have a total area of all of 1280x1280. And, apparently, GLX was using MESA (in software). To get real hardware-accelerated rendering, not to mention to be able to use my dual-head system at a higher resolution than 640x480 a piece, I had to install the proprietary nvidia driver.

Nope, not true. The nv driver is a joke. It is maintained (or rather, not maintained) by nVidia. It is open source, but obfuscated, and supports almost no acceleration. Already, the community maintained, open source, reverse engineered Nouveau driver is way better. It supports more acceleration (but OpenGL is experimental), supports dual-head, and develops at a very fast pace. Use nVidia's proprietary drivers if you play games, otherwise, use Nouveau.

Reply Score: 2

kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

Most of the real problems these days are being worked on in the DRM/Gallium3D repositories.


Unfortunately such things have been sitting in repositories for ages and never seeing the light of day. The open source world is great when it comes to ideas and starting up new projects but when it comes to following it through to the logical conclusion its an entirely different matter. Xorg unfortunately is what holds Linux (or in fact any *NIX for that matter) from mainstream adoption. Distributions talk and talk about 'improvements' but most of it is tweaking around the edges rather than addressing the fundamental flaws in Xorg. It will require some heavy lifting but so far the parties that yield the most benefit from Xorg seem to give back the least amount.

Reply Score: 6

diegocg Member since:
2005-07-08

Unfortunately such things have been sitting in repositories for ages and never seeing the light of day.

All the work based in GEM/KMS has been merged. Check the kernel changelogs. Gallium3D entered in Stable mesa in version 7.5.

rather than addressing the fundamental flaws in Xorg.

What "fundamental flaws"? Let me guess - the "networking oriented protocol"?

Reply Score: 5

boldingd Member since:
2009-02-19

Indeed. X development... OK, it's maybe not as rapid as it could be, the xorg folks aren't great with deadlines, but it is definitely moving! The improvements in X over the last several years have been visible, and are still on-going.

"X is bad!" has become a talking-point for the local Linux Hater's Club. It's not a substantive claim. X has gotten O.K., and it's still improving. Soon, it will be good; eventually, it will be freaking awesome. It's certainly not Desktop Linux's constraining factor.

The biggest thing holding Linux back from the desktop, I suspect, is just that there's no need for it. Most people already have Windows, and it works well enough that they have no need to switch. (Which is not to say anything negative about Linux - or anything about its comparative quality at all, really.) That, and they have Windows software.

Edited 2010-02-09 23:26 UTC

Reply Score: 3

nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26

"X is bad!" has become a talking-point for the local Linux Hater's Club. It's not a substantive claim. X has gotten O.K., and it's still improving. Soon, it will be good; eventually, it will be freaking awesome. It's certainly not Desktop Linux's constraining factor.


Funny I could just as easily say that "X has gotten better and will soon be awesome!" has been a talking-point for the local Linux Desktop Defender's Club.

I agree that it isn't the weakest link in the Linux desktop. I'd say that dependency issues cause more problems for people. Sub-pixel font rendering also needs to be improved.

The biggest thing holding Linux back from the desktop, I suspect, is just that there's no need for it.


At the very least there is a need on portable devices, and there are a lot of old computers in the third world that need to be upgraded from their pirated copies of XP. However in developed countries it is hard for me to recommend it even for a basic browsing pc. It's getting there but I still wouldn't put it on a relative's computer out of fear that I would get a call over an update breaking something.

Reply Score: 2

boldingd Member since:
2009-02-19

Funny I could just as easily say that "X has gotten better and will soon be awesome!" has been a talking-point for the local Linux Desktop Defender's Club.


Fair enough. In any case, the original statement was... far from original. One might say, we've covered this territory on OS News. Exhaustively.

I agree that it isn't the weakest link in the Linux desktop. I'd say that dependency issues cause more problems for people. Sub-pixel font rendering also needs to be improved.


If you're trying to install things from source, sure. But if you stick to your distributor's repositories, you'll probably be fine. I haven't had dependancy resolution problems in a long while, on Debian, Fedora or Ubuntu. Or Slackware, for that matter, as it pretty much just installs everything you'd want in the first place. (I have on RHEL4, but it's... very old.)

Dependancy resolution seems like a consistent gripe of yours; I'm a littel curious about what actually happened to get you so convinced that it's such a pressing problem.

Also, my fonts look fine, and have since forever on pretty much any Linux and any hardware I've used. But I'm not a typographer, so as long as they're legible and not highly aliased, I'm O.K. with them.

Reply Score: 2

kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

All the work based in GEM/KMS has been merged. Check the kernel changelogs. Gallium3D entered in Stable mesa in version 7.5.


But the drivers have to be ported over to the new model - which is still an on going issue; that doesn't then include the power management, or there lack of, when it comes to the GPU itself.

What "fundamental flaws"? Let me guess - the "networking oriented protocol"?


Actually no, there is nothing wrong with the protocol; XCB addresses many of the issues relating to libX11 but how many tool kits have wholesale moved over to XCB from LibX11?

Reply Score: 3

KAMiKAZOW Member since:
2005-07-06

Unfortunately such things have been sitting in repositories for ages and never seeing the light of day.

You should read Phoronix news. Phoronix has a weird obsession with benchmarks, but covers X.org and Mesa news very well (that includes Gallium).

The open source world is great when it comes to ideas and starting up new projects but when it comes to following it through to the logical conclusion its an entirely different matter.

Stop trolling.

Xorg unfortunately is what holds Linux (or in fact any *NIX for that matter) from mainstream adoption.

No. That would be laziness to try something else than Windows. Win9x was horrible on every single technical aspect and was still used widely.

Distributions talk and talk about 'improvements' but most of it is tweaking around the edges rather than addressing the fundamental flaws in Xorg.

You have no idea. Not every distributor is a lame freeloader like Canonical. Red Had and Novell actually work on Xorg.

Reply Score: 2

kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

You should read Phoronix news. Phoronix has a weird obsession with benchmarks, but covers X.org and Mesa news very well (that includes Gallium).


Throughput doesn't equal responsiveness; Xorg/XFree86 has always been able to great throughput - heck, I remember back in my COLA (Comp.OS.Linux.Advocacy) days where there would be numerous posts by me and others boasting about how much throughput could be achieved and that the 'X is slow' argument doesn't hold water.

Throughput doesn't equal responsiveness.

Stop trolling.


So when you meet someone you disagree with you abuse them - interesting.

No. That would be laziness to try something else than Windows. Win9x was horrible on every single technical aspect and was still used widely.


I have used 'something other than Windows' - I'm a f--king Mac user for Christsake and used FreeBSD full time from 1996 till 2002 - so please, shove what ever 'valuable' advice you have up your ass.

You have no idea. Not every distributor is a lame freeloader like Canonical. Red Had and Novell actually work on Xorg.


How about this idea; the ability for my Inspiron to wake up from being put to sleep and the GUI actually coming back to life instead of being greeted with a blank screen - yes, I am using the Neavou drivers that came with Fedora. How about addressing why alt-clt-backspace has been disable on almost every distribution which leaves me screwed when Xorg has frozen. How about addressing the lack of quality drivers instead of sending off abusive posts on this forum because your cohorts can't get their act together.

Edited 2010-02-10 03:20 UTC

Reply Score: 2

WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

I have used 'something other than Windows' - I'm a f--king Mac user for Christsake and used FreeBSD full time from 1996 till 2002 - so please, shove what ever 'valuable' advice you have up your ass.

He was talking about the general populace being too lazy to try something else than Windows, he wasn't talking about you.

So when you meet someone you disagree with you abuse them - interesting.

You did it too right there, the "shove what ever" etc part.

Reply Score: 6

nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26

He was talking about the general populace being too lazy to try something else than Windows, he wasn't talking about you.


That excuse doesn't work anymore when 12% of the US population uses a Mac which is a huge increase from 10 years ago.

Reply Score: 2

KAMiKAZOW Member since:
2005-07-06

"Stop trolling.


So when you meet someone you disagree with you abuse them - interesting.
"
You made a claim about the entire open source world. That's trolling.

Reply Score: 2

Blackhouse Member since:
2005-07-06

How about addressing why alt-clt-backspace has been disable on almost every distribution which leaves me screwed when Xorg has frozen.


I thought it was simply replaced with RightAlt+SysReq+K? Anyway that works for Ubuntu.

Reply Score: 1

vivainio Member since:
2008-12-26


I wish I have better performance and responsiveness in low end hardware with very small amount of RAM and CPU.


If you were counting monetary value for the hours being used to develop a system like KDE (and we get for free), what we have here amounts to millions of euros - and you are unwilling to spend a few hundred EUR on decent hardware?

For obsolete hardware, there are other environments like xfce.

Reply Score: 5

merkoth Member since:
2006-09-22

And what about current netbooks? What about possible ARM-based netbooks in the future?

It isn't always about spending money or not.

Reply Score: 2

agnus Member since:
2006-05-10

No problem. I have been using KDE 4 on Atom netbook (AspireOne) since Kubuntu 9.04 and it is running great.

Reply Score: 1

phoenix Member since:
2005-07-11

You have forgotten the hell of what is X.org

X is the worse thing in any Linux system.


Conversely, the worst thing about X is Linux. ;)

There are too many Linux-centric changes entering X.org, which is supposed to be a cross-platform graphics architecture. First, breaking it up into a bazillion packages, like a Linux distro, whereby any bit can be updated at any time. There's no real "X.org" releases, just distributions with almost random version numbers of packages. Then there was the inclusion of a dependency on HAL, even though every platform except Linux already had a (working|better|dependable|power-conscious) hal-type system. Finally, there's the upcoming removal of all user-space mode-setting support, effectively turning X.org into a Linux-only system.

Maybe development of XFree86 was slow and took a few wrong turns, but at least it was true to its roots as a cross-platform system, usable on commercial Unix, free Unix, Unix-likes, and more.

Reply Score: 7

siride Member since:
2006-01-02

Firstly, they are excising HAL and going towards using the platform libraries. So that problem is going away.

Secondly, the other OSes are more than welcome to add support for modern X. There's nothing in the newer architecture that is at odds with non-Linux OSes. In fact, KMS equivalents are what commercial Unixes have traditional used for X. It is the only sane way to do it. If the other OSes don't want to support that, it's their loss, really.

Reply Score: 3

vondur Member since:
2005-07-07

I wonder why the X server from SGI was never open sourced? They had the best one from all of the Unix vendors.

Reply Score: 2

coolvibe Member since:
2007-08-16

Oh no, not another one blaming X for all the world's problems.

Xorg is fine. Get over it already.

Reply Score: 2

twitterfire Member since:
2008-09-11

What happened to Wayland?

Reply Score: 1

Luminair Member since:
2007-03-30

I agree, KDE SC 4.4 will change the way people use computers. 2010 will finally be the year of linux

Reply Score: 1

WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

I agree, KDE SC 4.4 will change the way people use computers. 2010 will finally be the year of linux

As much as I love Linux...no, the year of Linux is more likely something around 2035.

First of all, most people don't need Linux; they have Windows which suffices for their needs. Secondly, their software stack is usually tied to a single platform. Third and most important, I still see lots of issues related to video; missing features in open-source drivers, buggy closed-source ones, neither of them being configured the same way etc. Non-geek users just can't tackle with such, and even geek users often do not wish to tackle with such when they can get work done easier on another OS.

Reply Score: 3

lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

I agree, KDE SC 4.4 will change the way people use computers. 2010 will finally be the year of linux As much as I love Linux...no, the year of Linux is more likely something around 2035. First of all, most people don't need Linux; they have Windows which suffices for their needs. Secondly, their software stack is usually tied to a single platform. Third and most important, I still see lots of issues related to video; missing features in open-source drivers, buggy closed-source ones, neither of them being configured the same way etc. Non-geek users just can't tackle with such, and even geek users often do not wish to tackle with such when they can get work done easier on another OS.


All of these possible snags are easily overcome via the simple procedure of pre-installing Linux and an advanced desktop and application set (KDE SC 4.4 is a great start) for the end user on appropriate hardware.

This is, after all, what users get when they buy Windows or Mac. If KDE SC 4.4 were allowed to compete on equal terms (that is, one could buy it pre-installed in a computer shop, and shoppers could compare it side-by-side with a Windows or Mac machine) ... then there would be no contest.

Compare apples with apples, so to speak. Compare each OS under the same means of obtaining it.

Pre-installed, correctly working, properly shop-configured KDE SC 4.4 (plus perhaps a few extra applications outside of KDE SC, such as Firefox, OpenOffice and GIMP) beats shop-bought Windows 7 hands down.

KDE SC 4.4 beats Windows 7 or Mac OSX on functionality (of pre-installed applications), performance (both responsiveness and start-up time), ease-of-use, stability, configurability, ease-of-update, ease-of-expansion and security (via both superior robustness in the first place and via lack of threats against it in the wild). Easily. By a mile.

The only serious competitor would be GNOME, really.

Edited 2010-02-10 02:12 UTC

Reply Score: 4

WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

Compare apples with apples, so to speak. Compare each OS under the same means of obtaining it.

Comparing them like that makes no sense as you can't obtain them the same way in reality. If they were available equally then the situation would be different, I agree. Alas, it's not. Besides, even then the shops would have to choose between possibly/probably unstable closed-source drivers or open-source drivers which almost always lack features.

Reply Score: 2

lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

Compare apples with apples, so to speak. Compare each OS under the same means of obtaining it. Comparing them like that makes no sense as you can't obtain them the same way in reality. If they were available equally then the situation would be different, I agree. Alas, it's not. Besides, even then the shops would have to choose between possibly/probably unstable closed-source drivers or open-source drivers which almost always lack features.


There are a few places online where one can escape the tyranny of not being able to choose from all possible options.

ZaReason, System76 and even Dell, in the US, and in my country, somewhere like this:

http://www.vgcomputing.com.au/nsintro.html

will pre-test Linux on the hardware for you, and tell you the result. Where they rate the Linux compatibility as "excellent", AFAIK they mean that all drivers are fully functional and supported as open source.

The fact that VG computing is a supplier in my country does not mean that they are of no interest to everyone else, because their list of notebook/laptop machines versus their as-tested Linux compatibility is valid world-wide:

http://www.vgcomputing.com.au/notebooks.csv

Download it if you like, perhaps if you are considering buying a notebook/laptop from which to strip away the OEM Windows. There are 73 recent laptop/notebook machines listed which are rated as having "excellent" Linux compatibility.

Reply Score: 3

tyrione Member since:
2005-11-21

"I agree, KDE SC 4.4 will change the way people use computers. 2010 will finally be the year of linux As much as I love Linux...no, the year of Linux is more likely something around 2035. First of all, most people don't need Linux; they have Windows which suffices for their needs. Secondly, their software stack is usually tied to a single platform. Third and most important, I still see lots of issues related to video; missing features in open-source drivers, buggy closed-source ones, neither of them being configured the same way etc. Non-geek users just can't tackle with such, and even geek users often do not wish to tackle with such when they can get work done easier on another OS.


All of these possible snags are easily overcome via the simple procedure of pre-installing Linux and an advanced desktop and application set (KDE SC 4.4 is a great start) for the end user on appropriate hardware.

This is, after all, what users get when they buy Windows or Mac. If KDE SC 4.4 were allowed to compete on equal terms (that is, one could buy it pre-installed in a computer shop, and shoppers could compare it side-by-side with a Windows or Mac machine) ... then there would be no contest.

Compare apples with apples, so to speak. Compare each OS under the same means of obtaining it.

Pre-installed, correctly working, properly shop-configured KDE SC 4.4 (plus perhaps a few extra applications outside of KDE SC, such as Firefox, OpenOffice and GIMP) beats shop-bought Windows 7 hands down.

KDE SC 4.4 beats Windows 7 or Mac OSX on functionality (of pre-installed applications), performance (both responsiveness and start-up time), ease-of-use, stability, configurability, ease-of-update, ease-of-expansion and security (via both superior robustness in the first place and via lack of threats against it in the wild). Easily. By a mile.

The only serious competitor would be GNOME, really.
"


Thanks for the subjectivity on benchmarks and productivity software.

I enjoy KDE 4.3, Gnome and of course OS X. I won't speak about Windows as I stepped away from that system 8 years ago for development.

Reply Score: 2

MamiyaOtaru Member since:
2005-11-11

even geek users often do not wish to tackle with such when they can get work done easier on another OS.

/me raises hand

I sure tried though. Four or five years, wasted

Reply Score: 2

Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

I think he was being sarcastic.

Reply Score: 2

KAMiKAZOW Member since:
2005-07-06

I agree, KDE SC 4.4 will change the way people use computers. 2010 will finally be the year of linux

Linux is just a kernel and it's already being used in millions of devices around the world.
There is no the year of Linux. It's already been several years.
As for the desktop: Linux systems are very well supported these days. Day to day use is no problem any longer. As long as the Linux, KDE and other FOSS communities are healthy, it doesn't matter if Linux systems have an installed base of 1% or 84%.

Reply Score: 5

nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26

Hardware companies would rather support a system with 84% share than 1%.

Reply Score: 2

KAMiKAZOW Member since:
2005-07-06

Hardware companies would rather support a system with 84% share than 1%.

All mainstream hardware is supported by Linux and other related FOSS projects -- often with drivers officially provided by hardware manufacturers.

These days, you can get pretty much any PC off the shelf and a modern Linux distro works on it. In the worst case one has to download the drivers manually.

Sure, there is hardware that doesn't work with Linux, but you can just as well find hardware that doesn't work with Windows (usually slightly older hardware for which the manufacturer refuses to support newer Windows versions).

IMO overall Linux systems have broader hardware support than Windows -- even with its current 1%-2% market share.

Reply Score: 4

nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26


All mainstream hardware is supported by Linux and other related FOSS projects -- often with drivers officially provided by hardware manufacturers.

Lexmark printers are mainstream, are they supported? How about the iphone?


These days, you can get pretty much any PC off the shelf and a modern Linux distro works on it. In the worst case one has to download the drivers manually.

Out of curiosity I was wondering if anyone has had any success with Linux on a laptop I might buy. Hmm what do you know, wireless problems:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1364651

Let's try another laptop I was looking at, the Toshiba Satellite M505D-S497. Hmm look at this poor ACPI support:
http://laptopforums.toshiba.com/t5/Open-Topic/Linux/td-p/58737;jses...

So the worst case it is unsupported and the second worst case is that you have to download and compile the drivers, right? You think that is acceptable in 2010?


Sure, there is hardware that doesn't work with Linux, but you can just as well find hardware that doesn't work with Windows (usually slightly older hardware for which the manufacturer refuses to support newer Windows versions).

Every printer at best buy will work with Windows. Every laptop will work with Windows. The same can't be said for Linux so I find your comparison to be rather disingenuous.

Linux has better support than it used to but it isn't comparable to Windows, especially for new hardware. Describing the situation as comparable since Linux has support for legacy hardware presents a dishonest view for users. No one cares that Linux can support 16 bit sound cards. They'd rather have iphone/ipod support.

Reply Score: 1

lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

" All mainstream hardware is supported by Linux and other related FOSS projects -- often with drivers officially provided by hardware manufacturers.
Lexmark printers are mainstream, are they supported? How about the iphone?
These days, you can get pretty much any PC off the shelf and a modern Linux distro works on it. In the worst case one has to download the drivers manually.
Out of curiosity I was wondering if anyone has had any success with Linux on a laptop I might buy. Hmm what do you know, wireless problems: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1364651 Let's try another laptop I was looking at, the Toshiba Satellite M505D-S497. Hmm look at this poor ACPI support: http://laptopforums.toshiba.com/t5/Open-Topic/Linux/td-p/58737;jses... So the worst case it is unsupported and the second worst case is that you have to download and compile the drivers, right? You think that is acceptable in 2010?
Sure, there is hardware that doesn't work with Linux, but you can just as well find hardware that doesn't work with Windows (usually slightly older hardware for which the manufacturer refuses to support newer Windows versions).
Every printer at best buy will work with Windows. Every laptop will work with Windows. The same can't be said for Linux so I find your comparison to be rather disingenuous. Linux has better support than it used to but it isn't comparable to Windows, especially for new hardware. Describing the situation as comparable since Linux has support for legacy hardware presents a dishonest view for users. No one cares that Linux can support 16 bit sound cards. They'd rather have iphone/ipod support.
"

You have it slightly the wrong way around. It is a case of "Certain hardware does not support xyz OS", rather than "xyz OS does not support certain hardware".

For example, certain older hardware, typically anything that was out of production by the time that Vista was released, supports only Windows XP and Linux. This is true of a substantial percentage of printers still in use ... there is a driver CD for that printer for Windows XP and earlier, and Linux has a driver, but the printer does not support Vista or Windows 7.

As far as Lexmark printers goes, here is the state of play:

http://www.openprinting.org/printer_list.cgi?make=Lexmark

In general Lexmark doesn't have particularly good support for Linux, so I would buy one. The ink is hellishly expensive anyway.

Mind you, most of those Lexmark printers listed above wouldn't have a driver for Vista or Windows 7 either, so in general the Lexmark support for current Windows is even worse.

Reply Score: 3

boldingd Member since:
2009-02-19

For example, certain older hardware, typically anything that was out of production by the time that Vista was released, supports only Windows XP and Linux. This is true of a substantial percentage of printers still in use ... there is a driver CD for that printer for Windows XP and earlier, and Linux has a driver, but the printer does not support Vista or Windows 7.


Indeed. I did an internship with Floyd County as a tech back when I was an undergrad, around the time Vista launched. We got in a whole bunch of new machines running Vista, and it was my job to configure and deploy them. The biggest problem we had was printer drivers: for a lot of our very old (parallel-port) printers, there was just no way to get them working with Vista. IIRC, we had to downgrade several machines to XP, basically so they'd work with the printers we had. I think we also held back several machines for the assayer's office, also because of compatability issues with old hardware and software.

Reply Score: 2

KAMiKAZOW Member since:
2005-07-06

Lexmark printers are mainstream, are they supported? How about the iphone?


Are you just incapable to use Google or is this a lame attempt at trolling?
According to http://www.openprinting.org/printer_list.cgi?make=Lexmark the majority of Lexmark printers work on Linux and iPhones work with Linux, too, according to http://marcansoft.com/blog/2009/10/iphone-syncing-on-linux/

OTOH iPhones don't really seem to work at all on 64bit Windows:
http://tech.blorge.com/Structure:%20/2007/06/30/iphone-not-comp...
http://secunia.com/community/forum/thread/show/3358/windows_7_64_bi...

If you are picking hardware for your lame "proofs" that Linux is bad and Windows is great, pick hardware that works with Windows.

Out of curiosity I was wondering if anyone has had any success with Linux on a laptop I might buy. Hmm what do you know, wireless problems:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1364651

According to http://mgsimon.de/2010/01/17/linux-notebook-p50ij-von-asus-im-test/ and http://ixsoft.de/cgi-bin/web_store.cgi?ref=Products/de/ASSO008LHW-4... (German) that notebook can be bought with Linux preinstalled.

Let's try another laptop I was looking at, the Toshiba Satellite M505D-S497. Hmm look at this poor ACPI support:
http://laptopforums.toshiba.com/t5/Open-Topic/Linux/td-p/58737;jses...

Seriously? You are complaining that a manufacturer that produces notebooks that don't even work properly with Windows has problems with Linux? To quote from the very same page:
"Also I will like to know how can I get the 3G Wan connection working under windows, (...) it does not connect or even get any cell phone signal from my GSM provider, under windows 7."
Looks more like Toshiba notebooks ship with broken hardware that doesn't work in whatever OS.


So the worst case it is unsupported and the second worst case is that you have to download and compile the drivers, right?

Bullsh*t. Nobody compiles drivers these days. Why should anyone? FOSS drivers are shipped with the distributions -- just get a recent one.
Proprietary drivers may require to be downloaded separately, but they are proprietary... that means closed source. You can't compile a closed source driver yourself. :-p

Your attempts at trolling are so lame, it's very funny.

Every printer at best buy will work with Windows.

For how long? Will there be Windows 8 drivers?

Every laptop will work with Windows. The same can't be said for Linux so I find your comparison to be rather disingenuous.

Of course they'll work with Linux.
Or do you see any laptop at Best Buy that does not have a chipset by Intel, AMD/ATI, or NVidia these days?
Those three companies all develop FOSS chipset drivers directly in the Linux kernel repository. AMD/ATI and Nvidia additionally provide closed-source GPU drivers. AMD/ATI also has very well working FOSS drivers.

Reply Score: 5

boldingd Member since:
2009-02-19

I've got an semi-old (two years) Acer lap-top, Z96J (I think) dual-booting Windows 7 and Fedora 12. Guess what? Neither the built-in USB web-cam nor the sound card work in Windows 7. Turns out, so far as I can determine, there's just no driver for that hardware for Win7, period, ever. And I had to manually download the driver for the Ati Radion x1800m graphics card. Manual driver installs, and hardware without drivers, period. Do you think that's acceptable in 2010?

By the way, everything was supported out-of-the-box in Fedora, even the web-cam(!).

My point here isn't that "Windows has worse hardware support in Linux." My point is, it's a mixed bag whatever you use: for any OS on any real-world hardware, especially usually-more-exotic laptops, some things just aren't going to work well, and some things won't work at all. It's true on Linux and it's true on Windows. Deal with it.

(Oh, another gripe is that, in order to turn off tap-to-click in Win7, I had to install the third-party Synaptics driver: the basic Win7 touchpad driver didn't have an option to disable tap-to-click, that I could find. So, that's more manual work to resolve hardware driver issues. And now I have the synaptics tray agent running all the damned time -- yes, I know I could disable it, but to do that, I'd have to run MSCONFIG and poke at system internals for two minutes, and that's just so... not 2010. ;) )

Reply Score: 4

Eruaran Member since:
2009-01-25

How about you talk to Lexmark and Apple, or Toshiba before you lay blame with GNU/Linux. Kernel developers and distributions bend over backwards to make sure that Linux supports more hardware "out of the box" than any other operating system. What do you think is "acceptable in 2010"? As if this community does not already do an awful lot to support your hardware. It's free software, and it owes you nothing. Go talk to Apple and friends if you want to find somebody to blame. If you want to talk about honesty, you can start with a clean install of Windows and find out for yourself what drivers you'll need to download after installing before you start slagging off about Linux hardware support.

Reply Score: 2

google_ninja Member since:
2006-02-05

2010 will finally be the year of linux


Oh man, I love it when people say that. Most of the tech press stopped after the first ten "Year of the linux"s, but every once in awhile you still hear it.

Reply Score: 2

ssa2204 Member since:
2006-04-22

"2010 will finally be the year of linux


Oh man, I love it when people say that. Most of the tech press stopped after the first ten "Year of the linux"s, but every once in awhile you still hear it.
"

Don't worry, we will hear the same in 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015.....In the meantime we will still get filled with every excuse and conspiracy theory in the book as to why 2010 was not the year.

Then again the Saints did win the big one, so maybe 2030 will be the year of the Linux desktop.

Reply Score: 1

nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26

2010 is actually reserved as a decadal break from the year of the Linux desktop. It's a time to reflect on years of the Linux desktop in the past.

Reply Score: 2

Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Yeah, it's just like "Windows in the data center".

Reply Score: 6

twitterfire Member since:
2008-09-11

Yeah, and 2010 will be the year of the linux desktop, and linux will take over the world and bla, bla, bla...

Reply Score: 1

Web slice
by vivainio on Tue 9th Feb 2010 20:22 UTC
vivainio
Member since:
2008-12-26

I'm using 4.4rc3 atm (the one that's on Lucid).

A fun hack with the "web slice" plasmoid

- Add plasmoid

- In settings, have:

URL: http://osnews.com
Element to show: #sidebar

Voila', you got the "news" section of osnews on your desktop. You do need to adjust the size for readability.

This might work with earlier kde too, didn't check.

This is one plasmoid I'm going to have some fun with for other websites as well...

Reply Score: 8

RE: Web slice
by Stratoukos on Tue 9th Feb 2010 20:55 UTC in reply to "Web slice"
Stratoukos Member since:
2009-02-11

This, sir, is a hell of an idea.

I'm not on Linux+KDE, but you can do something similar on the mac side.

The benefits of the new OSNews interface keep on piling!

Reply Score: 1

RE: Web slice
by richmoore on Tue 9th Feb 2010 21:51 UTC in reply to "Web slice"
richmoore Member since:
2005-08-06

This might work with earlier kde too, didn't check.

That's a new feature in 4.4 and isn't available in earlier KDEs. Glad you like it. :-)

Reply Score: 2

RE: Web slice
by Thom_Holwerda on Wed 10th Feb 2010 00:28 UTC in reply to "Web slice"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Wow that is fcuking awesome. Seriously dude - really nice.

Is there anything like that for GNOME?

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Web slice
by KAMiKAZOW on Wed 10th Feb 2010 01:43 UTC in reply to "RE: Web slice"
KAMiKAZOW Member since:
2005-07-06

Is there anything like that for GNOME?

Within a GNOME session run ''plasma-desktop''. Sounds weird, but actually works (clicking on Logout in Plasma shows GNOME's logout window -- FDo and dbus FTW)

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: Web slice
by Zelv on Wed 10th Feb 2010 07:33 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Web slice"
Zelv Member since:
2005-12-17

Plasma triggering GNOME logout has actually nothing to do with either fd.o or D-Bus. It is the venerable XSMP protocol.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Web slice
by KAMiKAZOW on Wed 10th Feb 2010 09:15 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Web slice"
KAMiKAZOW Member since:
2005-07-06

Then it's XSMP. Whatever.
Point is, it works and even integrates relatively nicely.

Reply Score: 2

Theme
by akaas on Tue 9th Feb 2010 20:47 UTC
akaas
Member since:
2009-08-16

Looks pretty good but some of the icons are very hard to recognize. I think they are too "bright" and would need darker edges or something.

Reply Score: 1

Windows Snap
by Beachchairs on Tue 9th Feb 2010 21:24 UTC
Beachchairs
Member since:
2009-04-10

KWin has also seen a number of feature additions, which mostly can be summed up as: copy the hell out of Windows 7: move to the top to maximise, move to the left or right to fill half the screen (for side-by-side viewing).

I'd say it does a better job of it than Windows too. Windows doesn't know how to do the side by side snap around where Monitor A hits Monitor B; KDE can.

In Windows you can snap 2 windows in side by side mode, then have a big gap in the middle. KDE lets you snap 4 windows side by side by side by side.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Windows Snap
by talaf on Tue 9th Feb 2010 22:33 UTC in reply to "Windows Snap"
talaf Member since:
2008-11-19

Windows + Right (or left) to snap on double screens (though I admit it could have worked from scratch).

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Windows Snap
by Beachchairs on Tue 9th Feb 2010 23:54 UTC in reply to "RE: Windows Snap"
Beachchairs Member since:
2009-04-10

I'm not surprised the keyboard shortcut works properly in this case. I am, however, surprised there is a shortcut.

Reply Score: 1

Comment by kaiwai
by kaiwai on Tue 9th Feb 2010 22:10 UTC
kaiwai
Member since:
2005-07-06

This isn't probably the place to ask these questions but I'll go ahead anyway:

1) Is there a plan to move away form HAL in favour of udisks/upower/libudev? do the developers have a schedule and if so what release are they aiming for regarding complete removal of HAL dependency?

2) When KDE is running on FreeBSD, is there a dependency on HAL?

3) Have they finalised the networkmanager front end? the last time I checked it was still in development/alpha with no real time line for eventual merging into the KDE distribution.

The reason why I ask is that I've found that nine times out of ten when I've had problems all roads always seem to lead back to HAL. The moment when HAL was removed from Fedora all the bugs relating to handling storage devices went and the battery life improved monumentally.

I'm also interesting regarding networkmanager front end because I'd sooner have a KDE native front end than having to deal with a GTK based on - from what I understand there was going to be a one but I never heard anything beyond a couple of posts.

Much thanks to those who can set me on the right path regarding those questions.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by kaiwai
by KAMiKAZOW on Wed 10th Feb 2010 01:55 UTC in reply to "Comment by kaiwai"
KAMiKAZOW Member since:
2005-07-06

Is there a plan to move away form HAL in favour of udisks/upower/libudev? do the developers have a schedule and if so what release are they aiming for regarding complete removal of HAL dependency?

KDE SC uses Solid for hardware interaction. Solid can have whatever back-end. In 4.4 it still uses HAL (at least on my openSUSE installation).

Have they finalised the networkmanager front end? the last time I checked it was still in development/alpha with no real time line for eventual merging into the KDE distribution.

KNetworkManager4 works fine, but it won't enter the main KDE Software Compilation. KNetworkManager4 is an Extragear app with its own release cycle.
SUSE's Will Stephenson worked hard to make KNM4 usable in time for openSUSE's 11.2 release which was last November or so.

That said, I still use GNOME's nm-applet very often. nm-applet has the ability to import Cisco's VPN profile files and whenever I'm connected to an open WLAN, I quit KNM4 and launch nm-a instead to use VPN.
KNM4 can use VPN, too, but the all settings have to be done manually and I'm too lazy for that. ;-)

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Comment by kaiwai
by Soulbender on Wed 10th Feb 2010 07:34 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by kaiwai"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

KNetworkManager4 works fine


Only if you don't need to use wireless broadband cuz that doesn't work at all. The UI could also do with not sucking so much.

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: Comment by kaiwai
by Bille on Wed 10th Feb 2010 14:28 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by kaiwai"
Bille Member since:
2007-05-31

I have a blind spot for UI suckiness. Would you care to point out how it could be improved?

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Comment by kaiwai
by Soulbender on Wed 10th Feb 2010 16:04 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by kaiwai"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

1) the "Connect to other network" dialog looks odd with the network names concatenated much prematurely.
2) The "Connect to other network" item gets high-lighted at the same time as the network name for wireless and mobile devices.
3) I would rather have the connection information in the icon tooltip rather than the menu item tooltip
4) What's the point of being able to add/remove "tray icons" in the configuration dialog?

Reply Score: 4

RE[5]: Comment by kaiwai
by Bille on Thu 11th Feb 2010 08:32 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by kaiwai"
Bille Member since:
2007-05-31

1), 2) Good points which I will address.
3) I know about this one, it's on my TODO list
4) Ex-Windows users wanted an icon per network interface in the tray

Reply Score: 3

RE[6]: Comment by kaiwai
by Soulbender on Thu 11th Feb 2010 12:00 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by kaiwai"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Cool.
Here's one I noticed just now. In KDE SC 4.4 if your first click on the systray icon is with the left mouse button the menu shows up in the top left corner of the screen instead of by the icon in the lower right. After you've clicked on it with the right button at least once both buttons work fine.
I'll get the errors I get for mobile wireless when I get home.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Comment by kaiwai
by KAMiKAZOW on Wed 10th Feb 2010 23:12 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by kaiwai"
KAMiKAZOW Member since:
2005-07-06

With the exception of nm-applet's usability f*ck-up to have two different context menus (right click and left click) I think it's menus and windows are well designed. IMHO you could just adapt its design for KNM4.

Reply Score: 3

Arch Linux KDE SC 4.4
by lemur2 on Wed 10th Feb 2010 09:03 UTC
lemur2
Member since:
2007-02-17

Installation instructions for KDE SC 4.4 on Arch Linux are here:

http://www.archlinux.org/news/483/

It is 300 MBytes of download, so I am still in the process of seeing if this works as advertised.

It is a good thing that my ISP provides an un-metered mirror for Arch Linux, but even so this is going to cost me a few hours at least.

In the interim, while I wait, I have been reading the odd review:

http://www.linuxplanet.com/linuxplanet/reports/6978/1/

With the KDE Software Compilation (SC) 4.4 release today, KDE's desktop evolution continues with more than 1,400 new features and nearly 7,300 bugs fixed.


1,400 new features for the desktop software. Never let it be said that FOSS doesn't innovate!

Edited 2010-02-10 09:09 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE: Arch Linux KDE SC 4.4
by lemur2 on Wed 10th Feb 2010 11:02 UTC in reply to "Arch Linux KDE SC 4.4"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

Installation instructions for KDE SC 4.4 on Arch Linux are here:

http://www.archlinux.org/news/483/

It is 300 MBytes of download, so I am still in the process of seeing if this works as advertised.

It is a good thing that my ISP provides an un-metered mirror for Arch Linux, but even so this is going to cost me a few hours at least.

In the interim, while I wait, I have been reading the odd review:

http://www.linuxplanet.com/linuxplanet/reports/6978/1/

With the KDE Software Compilation (SC) 4.4 release today, KDE's desktop evolution continues with more than 1,400 new features and nearly 7,300 bugs fixed.

1,400 new features for the desktop software. Never let it be said that FOSS doesn't innovate!


I'm very happy to report another apparent and welcome performance improvement in this new release of KDE.

I'd guess that the major contribution to this further performance gain is due this time around to Qt 4.6.

Edited 2010-02-10 11:03 UTC

Reply Score: 2

A good distro is needed
by stipex on Wed 10th Feb 2010 09:51 UTC
stipex
Member since:
2009-07-30

I like it. Now we just need a decent KDE Linux distribution.

Browser: Mozilla/5.0 (SymbianOS/9.1; U; en-us) AppleWebKit/413 (KHTML, like Gecko) Safari/413 es61i

Reply Score: 1

RE: A good distro is needed
by lemur2 on Wed 10th Feb 2010 10:34 UTC in reply to "A good distro is needed"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

I like it. Now we just need a decent KDE Linux distribution.


Arch Linux does a good job of KDE, and because it is a rolling release it has KDE 4.4 SC right now. I'm running it as I type this.

If Arch is a bit too cutting edge for you, then perhaps Mandriva is the go. The second alpha of Mandriva 2010.1 was released recently:

http://distrowatch.com/?newsid=05893

and that release featured KDE SC 4.4 RC3. The final release of Mandriva is not due until 2010-June-03.

http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20100208#upcoming

Fedora 13 is due for release 2010-May-11, and that may suit as Fedora normally has a fairly reasonable KDE implementation, but it is not the default since Fedora is primarily a GNOME distribution. Perhaps Mandriva would be more to your liking.

OpenSuse normally has a good KDE desktop implementation as the default, and that is due 2010-July-15, but given its association with Suse there is some danger it may try to include Mono, so beware.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: A good distro is needed
by nt_jerkface on Thu 11th Feb 2010 03:15 UTC in reply to "RE: A good distro is needed"
nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26


OpenSuse normally has a good KDE desktop implementation as the default, and that is due 2010-July-15, but given its association with Suse there is some danger it may try to include Mono, so beware.


Yea watch out, it might give you the ability to download useful programs. Scary stuff.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: A good distro is needed
by lemur2 on Thu 11th Feb 2010 06:47 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: A good distro is needed"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

" OpenSuse normally has a good KDE desktop implementation as the default, and that is due 2010-July-15, but given its association with Suse there is some danger it may try to include Mono, so beware.
Yea watch out, it might give you the ability to download useful programs. Scary stuff. "

You can certainly download programs for SuSe Linux, that isn't scary at all. However, you can also download programs for Fedora or Mandriva, even without Mono installed, so that is not a real differentiator.

Microsoft does have a campaign to try to eliminate Linux, however, and one of their "weapons" is patents and another is their assertion that if they are first to market with a certain type of technology (as an example, say LAN networking) and they have kept that technology a trade secret, then despite what the law says Microsoft like to pretend that no-one else may implement interoperable software without paying royalties to Microsoft.

So, .NET includes some components that Microsoft have submitted as standards (e.g. C# itself), and it has other parts that Microsoft have kept as trade-secret Microsoft technologies (ASP.NET, ADO.NET and WinFroms are examples). This is not controversial, this is fact.

Microsoft want dearly to pretend that if anyone else implements technologies that Microsoft has kept as trade secrets, then they owe royalties to Microsoft.

Mono implements technologies that Microsoft has kept as trade secrets. Therefore, Microsoft will want to collect royalties from users of Mono, even though Microsoft did not write the Mono software.

http://talkback.zdnet.com/5208-3513-0.html?forumID=1&threadID=27123...

Balmer is using double-speak when he talks about competition. He gives himself away when he points to "undisclosed liabilities" as the reason for investing in Suse rather than any other distribution. The "undisclosed liabilities" are really a threat of a lawsuit. Microsoft has put everyone on warning that they intend to sue other distributions and their users.


So, it follows that in order to avoid any possibility of such trouble, and to avoid giving Microsoft any semblance of a reason for lawsuits, it is very easy to just simply refuse to install anything resembling non-Microsoft implementations of Microsoft trade secret technologies.

Therefore, don't install Mono. Therefore, don't risk using OpenSuSe.

After all, it is not as though you will miss out on anything.

Edited 2010-02-11 06:48 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: A good distro is needed
by boldingd on Thu 11th Feb 2010 16:31 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: A good distro is needed"
boldingd Member since:
2009-02-19

And the legally binding agreement preventing them from bringing suit against users or implementors of interoperable implementations just means nothing?

Seriously, Mono is a good thing, at least for the GTK universe.

Edited 2010-02-11 16:37 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: A good distro is needed
by Soulbender on Fri 12th Feb 2010 05:15 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: A good distro is needed"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Tinfoil hat? Check.

Reply Score: 2

RE: A good distro is needed
by Soulbender on Wed 10th Feb 2010 16:06 UTC in reply to "A good distro is needed"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Just to draw the ire of many I'll say "Kubuntu".

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: A good distro is needed
by mgl.branco on Thu 11th Feb 2010 13:19 UTC in reply to "RE: A good distro is needed"
mgl.branco Member since:
2009-07-22

Dont' think so. It's miles away form other KDE's implementations.

Reply Score: 1

RE: A good distro is needed
by boldingd on Wed 10th Feb 2010 17:00 UTC in reply to "A good distro is needed"
boldingd Member since:
2009-02-19

I'm using and liking Sidux at work. It's pretty much just Debian Unstable. I kinda like it -- but I have an elevated tolerance for things breaking.

Reply Score: 2

Almost there....
by TheKal on Wed 10th Feb 2010 19:07 UTC
TheKal
Member since:
2010-02-10

Now, if only we had these fixed...

http://forum.kde.org/brainstorm.php#idea62491

&

https://bugs.kde.org/34362 (sitting there from... uh... 2001)

Reply Score: 1

RE: Almost there....
by mgl.branco on Thu 11th Feb 2010 13:18 UTC in reply to "Almost there...."
mgl.branco Member since:
2009-07-22

Ok, I'm not saying there're not a good thing, but do you seriously believe those are must have's?

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Almost there....
by TheKal on Thu 11th Feb 2010 17:44 UTC in reply to "RE: Almost there...."
TheKal Member since:
2010-02-10

Ok, I'm not saying there're not a good thing, but do you seriously believe those are must have's?


The devil is often in the details. The support for additional mouse buttons is something that has been asked for almost ten years (!) and it has almost 1000 votes (!!) on bugs.kde.org. It is a real issue to many people. It surely is to me. We're talking of a Desktop Environment here, and the mouse is a big part of it. It's not some obscure option for a few dudes in their basements. KDE 4 has been out for two years now. It's supposed to be "next generation" software and we're stuck with last millennia mouse handling. I don't want to sound demanding but at least the devs could say something. If it can't be done say so. But it would surprise me that a written-from-scratch effort like KDE 4 has such a structural limitation.

As for the drag and drop I personally don't use it heavily but I can feel the pain of those who do. Just because it doesn't touch me personally it doesn't mean that it's useless. I remember when I showed the beauties of KDE 4 (and FOSS in general) to a friend of mine just to have it laughted at for this very reason. The demo stopped there and while such a user (while being a very good person in general) is better lost than found it still shows that KDE devs should listen to reasonable (and I think those are) requests and not ignore them just because they personally don't care. It's a big world and while you can't please eveybody and least try to remove these, maybe little but very annoying to many, hurdles.

Reply Score: 1

Jason Bourne
Member since:
2007-06-02

Like a mate said... now this is something worth paying for (after some real font tweaking!) KDE 4.4 reached some maturity and it's far more usable than before. I have switched and I like what I see.

The user interface is definitely YEARS ahead of the stagnant GNOME.

Let's hope the best for this desktop. KDE made some shit along the way, but GNOME was not able to eat its lunch. Oh you you sad GNOME. "You had every opportunity, and you blew it."

Reply Score: 1

Lacking a bit in the art department
by lindkvis on Fri 12th Feb 2010 15:11 UTC
lindkvis
Member since:
2006-11-21

The technology looks impressive, but it seems there is a bit lacking in the art refinement/direction part of KDE. It reminds me a bit of computer games, where people will tell you that good graphics is part technology and part artistry. For instance, games like ICO/Shadow of the Colossus looked great despite the very limited graphics capability of the PS2 at the time they were shipping.

KDE seems to be an example of the opposite situation. The technology is there to make it look great, yet it doesn't. The desktop bar at the bottom of the screen looks fairly amateurish, apart from the Cashew at the far right, which looks well integrated into the bar. Likewise, the default toolkit theme looks poorly integrated with the plasma elements, icons and window theme.

I don't think this will change until someone takes a top down approach, says "this is the way it should look" and then changes every sub-element of KDE (Qt, included applications, window manager theme, etc) to match this vision.

The Gnome-shell people seem to have taken this top down approach in the design of the GUI:

http://www.gnome.org/~mccann/screenshots/clips/20100106201448/shell...

But then it remains to be seen how well it is implemented.

Reply Score: 0

After a week...
by Jason Bourne on Sun 14th Feb 2010 14:34 UTC
Jason Bourne
Member since:
2007-06-02

After a week playing with KDE 4.4, it feels that something is "wrong"... some idiosyncrasies sported by the mind of the developers continue to be a great barrier for KDE to automagically be ready for the desktop. Many things should be learned from GNOME, like the usability, the better distribution of menus.

The KDE menu (Kickoff and Classic) is one of the biggest issues for me. Because I always have to hunt down the application, no matter how many times I already have executed it. I suggest that you guys change the name Kickoff to Labyrinth... because it feelks like a damn hard one.

The good aspects of KDE 4 is the UI superiority over an white pale GNOME. This is the part where I clap my hands to developers of KDE.

The 'systemsettings' could also be called Labyrinth 2, I can barely understand the thousand options... Not that I can read all options and tweak, but you know, we just don't have the time.. if you know what I mean...

As a resolution, GNOME is winning by some better idiosyncrasies, and it's no wonder Canonical has put so much effort in it, polishing and making it a bit more sexy.

Reply Score: 1