OSNews

It's not hard. We sold our fighter aircraft a few years ago. Unfortunately you have to travel a very very long way to get us, as we have big tough Australia next door (well, 3000 km away).

You have state firewall building up.

You're as bad as China, North Korea or Britain, so you should be taken down!

Guys! Guys? Where are you, guys?..

You are right. It is very bad. I also accept your criticism of my government's policies - which was the whole point of this discussion by the way (many readers within China refuse to accept any criticism, which I guess would mean a "loss of face" rather than accepting it as a contribution from another person's point-of-view).

The technical citizens are trying to do something about it in New Zealand. We defeated one bad industry based law but industry is relentless in coming up with new ones (plus, the FBI has put wiretapping devices in all of our ISPs, which our ISPs are legally obliged to install, plus probably in yours too since these devices are in almost all internet enabled countries - which means TOR is pretty much useless btw).

Edited 2010-03-12 21:56 UTC

Emm.
Your contribution is as valuable, as telling them that they have mongoloid faces.
Surely they need to applaud you for this brilliant entry, captain obvious.

My point in the discussion is "So what?".
Let the Chinese decide for themselves and New Zealanders for themselves.

Well, I'd much rather be Captain Obvious asking for other people's views other than the fallicious ones presented thus far, than a depressed cynic who offers nothing positive and doesn't try to read possible valid points in posts - merely ignore them and look for any flaws (taking a tangent if need be just to score some extra negativity points).

I was astounded to hear that the recent Ukranian elections resulted in a russian-born Prime Minister who can barely speak Ukranian. Perhaps you have a right to be cynical with this result. However, first you joke you welcome and overlord and when this is questioned you then agree it might not be a good idea? Perhaps you need to get outside and sample whatever of spring has made it's way to the Ukraine. Life is good if you want it to be.

and doesn't try to read possible valid points in posts - merely ignore them and look for any flaws
So, how are you going to improve life for an average Xiao?

I was astounded to hear that the recent Ukranian elections resulted in a russian-born
Nah, he was born on the territory of modern Ukraine.

Prime Minister
Nah. Prime Minister (who also competed for the chair) was Armenian-(it's pretty strange, site seems antisemitic). Yanukovich was Prime Minister in 2002-2004 and 2006-2007, not in 2010.

who can barely speak Ukranian.
Noone of them does.
Except for Canadian diaspora guests, who speak antiquated Ukrainian and express antiquated thoughts.

Perhaps you have a right to be cynical with this result.
Thank you for granting me this right. Actually, it's the lesser of evils, but I'm quite tired of constantly choosing between evils.

However, first you joke you welcome and overlord and when this is questioned you then agree it might not be a good idea?
First you say that we all eventually die, then you agree that dying is not good.
Hmm, I don't see any logical fail here.

Perhaps you need to get outside and sample whatever of spring has made it's way to the Ukraine. Life is good if you want it to be.
Thank you, my own life is pretty good. It's fragile, though.

Edited 2010-03-12 22:47 UTC

Your new Prime Minister is Azarov, yes? born in Kaluga.
Your President is Yanukovych, but I wasn't talking about him.


> So, how are you going to improve life for an average Xiao?

I cannot do this. They must do it themselves. All I can do is try is make them think about the absurdities and lies they tell others. Then they can have a good think about what they really want to do with their country. I bet you they don't think being ruled by a corrupt elite is a good idea and maybe hiding the information of the corruption isn't such a good idea only.

> First you say that we all eventually die, then you agree that dying is not good.

When did I say this? I pointed out the Holodomor as a consequence of bad decisions made by others, and that perhaps it is not always good to let others make decisions for you (when you had joked about welcoming the overlordship of the Chinese). But to make good decisions yourself you need good information - something you will never have when the censorship is so heavy on important topics (not the trivial topics, like adult content etc).

I hope to clarify my statements, in case they're being lost in translation.

I get your sarcasm about permission - and your insinuation that the Decadent Imperious West is telling you (and China) what to do. That was not my intent - it was instead to point out that
* censorship is bad
* there are many fallacies used to defend censorship, but they are not valid defences,
* I am asking for valid arguments as to why censorship should be retained in China
* letting people decide for you is bad (I'm not deciding what to do, just saying better information should be available for the Chinese to make their own decision)

what I wasn't trying to do was:
* directly dictate what the Chinese (or you) should do
* go off on a tangent about the Ukraine and the stalemate caused by the tensions between the native Ukranians and Russian Ukranians like yourself (there, I finally said it, but I was trying to avoid that subject).

May I ask the question as to what you are doing for the average Xiao, apart from defending censorship, and sniping at those who might suggest that no good reasons for the high level of censorship in China have yet been presented? Nothing?

I donnot think Chinese or NZ decides themselves to be filtered. That is Tyranny of gov.

I would really like to see some technical details here.

I'm not in ISP business but at least the German government had to specify and deploy dedicated surveilance equippment for the data rentention laws. I also didn't see any port labeled "FBI uplink" last time I saw ISP level network equippment.

You only mention FBI, so maybe your focus was on US colonies like .uk, .nz and .au?

I would really like to see some technical details here.

I'm not in ISP business but at least the German government had to specify and deploy dedicated surveilance equippment for the data rentention laws. I also didn't see any port labeled "FBI uplink" last time I saw ISP level network equippment.

You only mention FBI, so maybe your focus was on US colonies like .uk, .nz and .au? "

Hi, my information my be incorrect but it is based on:
http://cyfswatch.org/?p=515
http://www.fipr.org/polarch/enfopol19.html
http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/1/1686/1.html

(some of it quite old)

The key phrase you want is "lawful interception".

There is something very wrong with this sentence.

There is something very wrong with this sentence. "

It seems that the poster believes that The Commonwealth is a term meaning US Colony.

Edited 2010-03-13 18:24 UTC

Since when does FBI has any jurisdiction in NZ?

Part of trade treaties for many nations, for enforcement of intellectual property rights. FBI don't have jurisdiction (cannot prosecute) but collect data so that either local company branches can raise civil suits or cases can be raised as WTO or WIPO issues.

It is very likely that your ISP will have "lawful interception" equipment mirroring the traffic in Mnailla - devices which ordinary ISP admins don't get internal access to.

Unlikely. For one I was the admin of an ISP and we had no such equipment.

Unlikely. For one I was the admin of an ISP and we had no such equipment. "

When? If it was a while ago then its no surprise if you didn't see it then.

Are you sure that the Philipines have no filtering?

http://www.icafepilipinas.org/index.php/2010/01/24/our-stand-on-web...

http://magnetic-rose.net/2009/12/anti-hentai-bill-now-law/

It is good they seek to remove child porn from the Net. Unfortunately in every country where it has been implemented for some time once the filtering is in it extends to cover content far past what was originally envisaged.

Edited 2010-03-15 04:04 UTC

At least they dont let themselves to be raped by some american shit multi like google. Google killed many small businesses such as free email providers. They should be stopped now and give others a chance to do their own search engines but still even if they get thrown out of china thats only a couple of percent loss of their profit. EU should throw out google too and restrict it to open branch offices/ deploy nation wide search grids.
I dont want all my google search to be logged f--ktards, is that understood?

Edited 2010-03-13 12:29 UTC

Relax amigo. No need to curse. Google does not kill other search engines in the same way Microsoft kills its competitors. You are perfectly free to create your own search engine and compete fairly with Google. You can create your own email provider too. Google beats its competition because people like its convenience. If you can beat that then you have a chance.

Please read the Broken Windows Fallacy on why email providers should not be preserved if they can't compete. It's not the exact same analogy but I'm sure you'll be able to see the relevance that the resources used by the un-competitive email providers are better spend on other problems than the ones Google has already solved.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window

Technology is so passe. All you can do is argue about who really came out with it first, or who does it better. Politics (and religion) are much more fun!

Irrespective of my views on this issue I would like to say that is irresponsible to look at technological/engineering advances without at least occasionally considering them within the context of society.

Yes, OSnews does have quite a large focus on civil rights, and liberties, at the moment but that would seem to stem from a larger interaction between the technology we love and this area of society.

Im criticizing our society, not osnews

Excellent points. I've yet to see a reply on these topics from any defender of China's policies who don't use the absurdities of:
"You're not Chinese so you can't possibly understand or comment"
Essentially a mild form of racism stemming from nationalism. Unfortunately this racism seems reasonably prevalent from Chinese commentators.

"Free speech would result in social instability" Absurd, after an initial settling period societies become more stable with less censorship, witness Eastern Europe's increased political in Poland etc where the people feel they can make a difference now.

"People are too busy trying to survive than worry about abstract notions like freedom"
This is both self-centeredness and cowardice. People must make sacrifices for the common good, but saying that the sacrifice must simply be obeying your government means you're getting played like for a total fool. The sacrifice is having the courage to point out injustice and accepting the reactionary response.

"We don't want to end up like the West".
Well, that's probably a good thing. Doesn't mean your government should censor legitimate debate.

"Censorship protects the children"
Yes, this is midly true and not unique to China. However, censorship also allows corruption, crime and bad governance to go unpunished - which is far worse.

I'm hoping our Chinese readers can give better arguments on why censorship is good than these tired old fallacies.

Edited 2010-03-12 21:33 UTC

Yes, your choices may be bland but you don't have to fight on the streets. Also, I see Ukraine struggles with economic progress while making strides in political progress. Although the interests of your bigger neighbour clearly affects both.

Yes, your choices may be bland but you don't have to fight on the streets.
Yep, just dwell in crime and quietly depopulate.

Also, I see Ukraine struggles with economic progress while making strides in political progress.
You don't see anything.
Last remnants of soviet industry are being either sold or deteriorate. New infrastructure is rarely built - with instability it makes no sense to make long investments, only the here-and-now. There is nothing to make economic progress on.
Political progress - well, going from a West-acclaimed nazi to a criminal that has been in prison two times, safely missing a woman who successfully escaped justice two times - you can call it a progress.

Although the interests of your bigger neighbour clearly affects both.
I wouldn't say so.
Russian business already owns what it wants and therefore is loyal to every government.
Russian politics - yes, but much lesser than EU and US.

Edited 2010-03-12 21:50 UTC

Nice joke. Would you truly swap making hard choices yourself for another country telling you what to do? The Holodomor from Ukraine's recent past springs to my mind as one reason not to.

Please, don't ever use propaganda copypasta against people who know their own history perfectly well .

The point was, would you like to be annexed by Russia again? or by China? or by Poland? Belorus? EU? Do you think it would solve all your problems?

Surely making your own decisions is better, yes? And having external people offer criticism and suggestions on what could be improved is better yes?

The point was, would you like to be annexed by Russia again? or by China? or by Poland? Belorus?
Annex me? No I'm not into that kind of hentai.
Annex country? Take it.

EU? Do you think it would solve all your problems?
Our previous president and a big part of ukrainophone citizens obviously think this way.

Surely making your own decisions is better, yes?
Yes, of course.
Sadly, that never happened for total 19 years of Ukraine existence (one year in 1918 plus 18 years from 1991).

And having external people offer criticism and suggestions on what could be improved is better yes?
Not always, as external people press their own goals. See IMF/Mexico, for instance.

Edited 2010-03-12 22:12 UTC

Wait, it should be: I'm hoping our pseudo-liberal Kiwi readers can give better arguments on why democracy is good than these tired old fallacies.

There, it's much better.

Wait, it should be: I'm hoping our pseudo-liberal Kiwi readers can give better arguments on why democracy is good than these tired old fallacies.

There, it's much better. "

Where did I mention "democracy"? Nope, you won't find it - perhaps you are reading with a such a closed mind you are reading what you want to read. I was talking about censorship and corruption. Please try and follow the threads

Not really. I'm sick of westerners over-glorifying democracy like a doomsday religion. The only people who are close-minded IMO are the generic westerners.

But I will defend China's censorship as a South Korean for preventing "undesirable elements from the British Commonwealth and America" seeping into China.

@neticspac:
[quote]But I will defend China's censorship as a South Korean for preventing "undesirable elements from the British Commonwealth and America" seeping into China.[/quote]
Glad (?) to see that the poor average Chinese brain is being "Protected" from being able to see all of the facts and judging for themselves. So are you in favor of the Govt. wiping their @sses for them as well?
No one is saying that the Chinese should embrace all the spew from the western world without question (although I'm pretty sure that Chinese Women are hot and I would not mind seeing more of them without clothing!). Time to grow up, and face the World as it is, decide how you want to live your own life, and TELL THE GOVT TO GET THE H3LL OUT OF OUR LIVES!

Wait, it should be: I'm hoping our pseudo-liberal Kiwi readers can give better arguments on why democracy is good than these tired old fallacies.

There, it's much better. "

Actually, I'm not a liberal really. Conservatives are the ones who like less government, yeah? Plus, attacking me doesn't invalidate my views or my question. If you have a good case for censorship I'd really like to hear it. If you can't find one then perhaps you might like to reconsider your own position.

I wouldn't assume you are dense but I wasn't personally attacking you. Just parodying the generic western attitude based on your response.



Of course I do. I don't think like a westerner. You are assuming that you will understand my position and vice versa. But since we are obviously from a different background of understanding, we can never agree with this.

Edited 2010-03-13 23:22 UTC

I wouldn't assume you are dense but I wasn't personally attacking you. Just parodying the generic western attitude based on your response.

If you have a good case for censorship I'd really like to hear it. If you can't find one then perhaps you might like to reconsider your own position.

Of course I do. I don't think like a westerner. You are assuming that you will understand my position and vice versa. But since we are obviously from a different background of understanding, we can never agree with this. "

Yes, well that particular fallacy was addressed by an earlier poster. How can we understand if you never put a coherent argument forward, even if we repeatedly ask for it?

Because I don't think your argument is coherent in the first place.

Because I don't think your argument is coherent in the first place. "

OMG! I can't believe I'm debating with a juvenile.

put in the wrong place - sorry

Edited 2010-03-13 22:39 UTC

It's unlikely that they can even see this thread. Oops.

I know quite a few Malaysian Chinese and even there, they're concerned about government intrusion.

The people in China I see on television seem to be just the opposite, cheerfully reciting the lines that the government is good for them. My Mandarin isn't very good, but whatever language they use, hardly anyone would criticise anything but the western world.

As far as I know, China has never had a good government, though the emperors were probably more beneficent than the current government. The way it seems, it will take another 5000 years for the country.

The bit about western contamination seems so real, though. Too much Asian tradition has been lost already. It seems that the world will be full of beige people using gray transportation, living in white blocky buildings.

It's unlikely that they can even see this thread. Oops.

I know quite a few Malaysian Chinese and even there, they're concerned about government intrusion.

The people in China I see on television seem to be just the opposite, cheerfully reciting the lines that the government is good for them. My Mandarin isn't very good, but whatever language they use, hardly anyone would criticise anything but the western world.

As far as I know, China has never had a good government, though the emperors were probably more beneficent than the current government. The way it seems, it will take another 5000 years for the country.

The bit about western contamination seems so real, though. Too much Asian tradition has been lost already. It seems that the world will be full of beige people using gray transportation, living in white blocky buildings. "

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Interesting point about 'contamination' although if you've ever been to Europe you'll see how characterising it has 'beige' missed the mark by quite a wide margin.

The Japanese seem to retain a large part of their wonderful culture while adopting a reasonable government (yes, it's not perfect, nowhere is) and a less lop-sided balance between governmental power and protection of the individual.

Japan has tried to refuse contamination since the 1300s when the Spanish, Portuguese, and Dutch were selling guns and religion. They were exiled for trying to manipulate factions into killing each other, making the country ripe for takeover.

It wasn't until the U.S.A. was pointing cannons at Japan about 500 years later (in the name of trade, no less) than any foreign contingent made it onshore.

The government generally works because the people serving still have some sense of duty and honour but corruption runs so deep and suicides don't happen to cleanse the problem any more.

China has avoided contamination because the government is already corrupt and generally won't be influenced by outsiders, even when it would benefit them.

It's obvious that the government wants to keep the people quiet or else they would not have allowed capitalistic ventures into the country at all. People want things and if they get them, they can complain about something other than the government.

I'm trying to say the net effect is the same. An internet filter is government-imposed censorship. Whether it is to prevent children from seeing a penis enter a vagina, or to prevent a Chinese man from reading about dissidents, the concept is just as wrong. Government censorship is ALWAYS BAD, whether China does it, or whether we do it.



It is absurd in this specific China case (as censorship is always bad), but cultural relativism certainly isn't always absurd. That makes no sense. The ability to set one's own culture aside and look at another culture through that culture's eyes is something that could've prevented a whole boatload of nastiness.

In general, I dislike stating one culture is better than another (not saying you meant this, but in my country this is a very relevant topic). It leads to bad, bad things.



I never said such a thing. I'm saying that government censorship and severe privacy invasion are always bad.

Edited 2010-03-12 21:43 UTC

Government censorship is not part of the chinese culture. I am chinese, I ought to know. I dont think anyone can make a valid argument in favor of censorship.

What I do not like is ppl from western countries pointing to china (or any other problematic country) and getting a smug sense of self-satisfaction out of it. ppl should not be judged by the circumstances they were born into.

Government censorship is not part of the chinese culture. I am chinese, I ought to know. I dont think anyone can make a valid argument in favor of censorship.

What I do not like is ppl from western countries pointing to china (or any other problematic country) and getting a smug sense of self-satisfaction out of it. ppl should not be judged by the circumstances they were born into. "

Is it not part of Chinese culture to defer to your elders and authority? This is usually a very good thing, but perhaps this does allow exploitation of the people in ways that would not be possible elsewhere.

I'm certainly not feeling smug about the crappy circumstances of the ordinary folk in China, and trying not to sound judgmental or condescending (probably failing miserably on that count). It's just some of your countrymen are so sensitive to non-flattering words from outside that they defend the censorship regime you currently experience. You personally are clearly are able to make the distinction.

@razor:

To be sure, the US in particular, has nothing to be proud of, given the amount of problems with day-today society, but at least our problems cannot be denied by the Govt, since they're pretty much in the Global public view, contrast that with the Chinese Govt. spin on Tiananmien Square (sorry about the spelling!), which the average Chinese Citizen has been told was an attack by "Terrorists", on the Chinese way of life (or whatever!). Does every Chinese citizen believe this? I doubt it, but they have to AGREE with it (in public) or suffer the consequences. No one should blame the average Chinese citizen for being smart enough NOT to argue with the barrel of a gun, but sooner or later, the Chinese Govt. will be forced to acquiesce to the free flow of information, once their Economy finds that their money depends on it.
Unfortunately for Google, they compromised their own principles by allowing the Chinese Govt. to censor their site(s) in the first place, so Google really is complicit in sustaining the current Chinese Regime.
There was an article a few weeks back in
"Newsweek"about this very issue and what they said is that what was bad for the Chinese position was not that censoring was bad, but that it was just dumb and irrelevant, making a laughingstock of the Chinese Govt.
I have nothing but respect for the Chinese people, just look at the fact that their civilization is over 3000 years old. While the Europeans were still roaming around as hunter/gatherers and living in caves, China finally united under their 1st Emperor around 300 BCE. Don't be so quick to lump EVERYONE in one category.

It's funny that Google does not object to the state-backed data retrieval.
So any time you enter your personal data on the net...

I'd suggest that last bit should be "neither is your personal data in any company" - regardless of if they do business in China, a third party has very little interest in maintaining your privacy. Google and other service providers are already abusing your data internally and fully willing to hand it over to applicable governments with very little complaint. They're not upset because user data was breached; they're upset because there own personal data was breached.

If Google's barely secured backdoor for authorities isn't enough then slide over to Cryptomb and read the official documentation for several companies who will quickly comply with "requests from authorities". Paypal only recently reinstated Cryptomb's account after it's own documentation was leaked.

So the motto is actually "don't be evil, unless it's costly not to".

In another company that would be true. For Sergeio I don't think that is such big a factor. What it comes down to was the dilemma of whether working with the Chinese Government (giving them legitimacy for their policies) was worse than the benefits of trying to give the Chinese net users more information. That is harder decision to make.

Obviously Google won't be able to do business in China.

[insert theme music to Jaws]

I traveled to China before and saw many foreign expats accepting the media and internet censorship for the sake of stability. It's very hard to manage a country with a highly densed population that is decently educated on average.

As my New Zealander university professor who used to study in China once said to me: "if New Zealand had 1 billion, obviously over millions, population, New Zealand would impose all kinds of censorship worse than China's."



You can always blame the western media of distorting China.



You can pretty much describe people devoted to democracy like that.



If you look at the history of the West, democracy and capitalism have been developed from exploiting Asia and Africa. Even today's western democracy and economic systems have a very dark history.